A Cheater, a Storage Locker, Decades of Secrets
Dear Chump Lady,
I think I have a unique gift for CN. My husband had a long-term affair with an employee of our medical company and a “friend” of mine. I found out and we separated then reconciled. (Of course I’d done the pick me dance.) She broke up another family and married that man. (I’m encapsulating about a decade here.)
A couple of years after reconciliation, (not very long ago), my husband died suddenly in a hideous and gory accident. (Talk about Karma. The accident was freakishly unlikely and involved a site crucial to the affair — a place he’d originally bought to meet her — as I learned.)
Here is the gift for CN part: He left a storage unit with, among mundane storage unit things, boxes filled with printouts of every email, screen shots of every text and years of journals chronicling and documenting every aspect of the affair. (I don’t know why he did this but my theories include his being worried early on she’d sue for harassment and so documented her pursuing and also some elements of just being obsessed with himself and maybe even wanting me to ultimately find these.) So. Many. Boxes. And some had important tax and property info needed for the estate mixed in so I had to go through them all!
At any rate, this was a rare view into both the inner workings of probably a fairly typical affair relationship as well as the FW mindset. You are just so right about it all.
Highlights:
1. Soooo many fights between them.
She is jealous of me and pissed he won’t leave. She screws other people to make him jealous. Constant drama of every imaginable kind. Trust that the affair couple absolutely sucks.
2. Evidence of the FW mindset.
There are actual CHARTS regarding what time and date he will have sex with her versus me to keep the both of us convinced all is well. A LOT of planning goes into affair logistics. Nothing “just happens.”
3. He knows he’s a fraud.
At various times he refers to himself as a fraud, liar and coward. He does not change any behavior though. He says “Where is my conscience?” but doesn’t pursue further examination.
4. Zero respect for women.
At one point he refers to her as a slut. He has two more affairs to get back at her once she gets involved with the second married man. He calls these two women “fillers.” He was a predatory creep. These women worked for him in separate office later. Really, he had zero respect for all women. By the way, this man was beloved and respected in our community.
5. It’s worse than you know.
I think CN can assume that whatever we think we actually know about our FW’s affair is the tip of the iceberg. I thought I knew a lot. MUCH marriage counseling where all beans supposedly spilled, yet I learned from these boxes about:
- At least two other affairs and also between affairs, he’s constantly trolling for sex via texts with women at his gym (“Your ass looks hot during spin class. Can I give you a ride home?”)
- A $50,000 “loan” — for original affair partner to put a down payment on house so she could leave her husband (I had the estate attorney check whether she paid it back and she did and I saw proof.)
- She had two abortions supposedly his (I’m pro-choice but mention this to show the sloppiness in their thinking — hello birth control?? They had five offspring between them already — also proof of willingness to give me STDs.)
- Of course they had sex in my home.
- He helped her hurt our business by introducing her to clients, which she later took from our company, which he was fine with despite this taking significant income from us (“She’s gotta eat too.”)
I could go on. My point in part 5 is that there is probably sooo much more than you know. Along the same lines, more people than you think also probably know/knew. One of my husband’s siblings knew all this and encouraged it and had done similar!
I took the journals to the former marriage counsellor after his death and he gave a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder/sociopath.
I still see the OW around quite often as we’re in the same field and relatively small city. She cannot look me in the eye. I am mostly at meh unless our worlds collide directly and I find myself in a room with her. I was getting up the nerve to divorce when my husband died, so that’s helpful getting to meh. Was lucky that I didn’t have to go through that. It was going to cost me a lot of money despite his cheating due to the laws in my state and my out earning him. (When I’d asked him to move out at D-Day 1 he’d said: “I know my rights. You’ll have to get the sheriff.”) Affair partner’s now adult offspring know at least generally about the affair. Mine know there are some disturbing things I learned about their father, but they’ve said they don’t want to hear them right now. (They were young when all this started and weren’t privy to why we’d separated then, etc.)
I will leave you with this direct quote from FW’s journal:
“How did I become such a liar?
I was really good at it.
Both women really wanted to believe me.
I could have my cake and eat it too.”
Please sign me “Enlightened Widow”
****
Dear Enlightened Widow,
I am very sorry you had to go through all that — literally and figuratively. I wish you’d left him and his Secret Sexual Storage Locker. If only to destroy that smug self-satisfaction of his, but I guess God got there first.
Freak accident at the affair lair? Are you sure you or Schmoopie don’t have super powers of telekinesis?
I mean, that’s a crazy cinematic plot twist right there. Not that you’d wish him dead. Heck, you tried reconciling with this monster. But wow. That’s a lot to process. You would not be the first person on this blog to make gruesome discoveries after the death of a cheater. But I think you take the biscuit for Much Worse Than You Know.
Or maybe that should be a Friday Challenge. It is always worse than you know. How much worse? My advice: Do not torture yourself with that tipping point. A double life is a non-starter.
If your spouse has a secret co-worker affair, love child, Schmoopie time share, burner phone, trunk full of disguises — whatever! — YOU KNOW ENOUGH. It does NOT get better. These people are cracked.
As you discovered with his time-stamped sex charts (I can’t even), it takes a lot of organization to pull off a double life. A high degree of motivation. You can’t trust them, because they’ve elevated deception to an art form. You’re not going to catch these freaks out, all you can do is walk away and let them have their sick secrets.
Why do we (and especially therapists) labor under the delusion that cheaters are going to lead with unvarnished honesty after discovery?
MUCH marriage counseling where all beans supposedly spilled
He snowed you and the therapist. He must’ve enjoyed his little cat-and-mouse games.
I took the journals to the former marriage counsellor after his death and he gave a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder/sociopath.
I guess this one doesn’t go down in their My Marriage Is Stronger! referrals. Whatever he was spilling the beans about, the shrink never stopped, looked at you meaningfully as if to say “You’re dealing with a lying liar who lies”? Sure would’ve been nice to have that diagnosis when the actual freak was on his shrink sofa, just saying.
When I’d asked him to move out at D-Day 1 he’d said: “I know my rights. You’ll have to get the sheriff.”
What kind of baby man needs to be evicted? This is such a FW phenomenon — hanging around where they are not wanted — daring you to escalate the consequences, when you’re just exhausted from their shit. The entitlement!
I will leave you with this direct quote from FW’s journal:
“How did I become such a liar?
I was really good at it.
What a thing to be proud of. Geez.
He isn’t Wylie Coyote Super Genius. You trusted him. These people fancy themselves as so clever, when really they’re just transgressive.
Normal people don’t imagine their partners are committing spectacular betrayals of their trust. You see the world through your own moral lens. How could you imagine he’s carrying on with your friend? You wouldn’t do that. And yet he concludes that he’s a very clever boy.
Both women really wanted to believe me.
I could have my cake and eat it too.”
Well, until the Karmic scheduler took away your fork.
Thanks for sharing your story Enlightened Widow.
“Normal people don’t imagine their partners are committing spectacular betrayals of their trust. You see the world through your own moral lens. How could you imagine he’s carrying on with your friend? You wouldn’t do that.”
Thank you for this.
Yeah, this guy got mistaken for a decent human being. Doesn’t make him a mastermind of deceit but merely a disappointment.
I agree. It helps me a lot to remember that I wasn’t criminally naive or willfully blind. I just value trust and honesty, and try to live my live as a trustworthy and honest person. Unfortunately, as I have learned to my sorrow, not all people share my values/morals/ethics. Now I try to balance living my life by my values with my understanding that I can’t assume all other people are trustworthy or honest.
I also liked this line: “Why do we (and especially therapists) labor under the delusion that cheaters are going to lead with unvarnished honesty after discovery?” I fell into this trap, partly, I’m sure, because I saw my now-ex through my “moral lens” after he did come clean (partly…as I later discovered). My feeling was, “Now that his hidden life is out in the open, and we’re discussing why he had that hidden life, he is being honest and has no more reason to hide.” Now I know better.
Yes! I felt that way too. Now that his “horrible shame” is out in the open, the poor man can unburden himself from all that weight! The unimaginable heavy load of shame. Poor him! He told me he felt SO MUCH BETTER now that I knew and he didn’t have to feel
all that awful guilt. Really? He kept lying to me and still would lie and hide his secret life if I was still with him. He likes the shame? He likes feeling dirty? Can’t figure him out and don’t care to. Thank God, not my problem anymore!!!
Emma, same here. He told me that a huge weight lifted off his shoulders after I found out. I even felt sorry that he had to live with such monumental lie. Of course there was this: “I hid it to protect you” speech too. I thought that he made a huge mistake and I had to support him/us to go through this. Even when I was at the peak of my shock after the discovery, it was never about my feelings. My focus was all on him and he loved it. No wonder why he could not stay alone with himself even for a second. He needed distraction, tv, music, alcohol, video games or people around him. Always.
NotFromVenus, I like your name! Yes, I can relate very much to what you wrote and also felt quite sorry for him. Mostly I was in shock and so upset and sad and would have done anything to “help”. That was my orientation in our relationship, in my previous ones too. I was raised by an alcoholic mother, an immature woman on many levels, and was used to trying to fix everything that was beyond me to fix. Ive learned so much since all of this has happened. I am glad I’m not the same stuck person living in ignorance as I was. This has propelled me forward in my own growth like nothing ever had before. I have used this experience to finally get the lesson of not trying to fix other people. But, the soft heart is still mine and I cherish that in myself. It’s just not soft for lying losers. It’s soft for me. Soft and sweet to live with my heart.
Emma, they loooooove the deception! Why give it up, just because spouse appliance knows now? In fact, it may be even more ‘fun’. More sneaking, new ideas for hiding the AP, a nice challenge. This is why I believe my ex IS a sociopath! The fact that crying me now was trying to trust him, and repair things (hadn’t found CL yet), made him go farther underground. And get the black shark eyes. Sickos!
At least it made it so much easier to leave. Who wants a future like that?
Freewoman,
I replied to you but I guess I must have done something wrong, as my long reply ended up way down near the other end of all the comments. Anyway, yes! I relate to you. My long reply is somewhere on here! Glad you’re a free woman now!
FreeWoman, I wanted my-ex out of the house after the discovery, and throughout all those months, he kept calling me and texting me how sorry he was. He said it was horrible of him to deceive me, he cannot live without me, we need to save our marriage. We talked on the phone many times (almost an hour each time) and he was apologetic, I could clearly hear the sadness in his voice. He was done with her and wanted to come back home. He came and his apparent sadness moved me. I was happy that he was back to normal.
I was wrong. He was lying to me the whole time. It is scary to think about it now. He played his role and was prepared for it so well that I cannot believe he is normal.
And his eyes. I should have listened to my gut feeling because I could never look at him in the eye. His eyes were dark, empty and meaningless. It was like looking at a black hole. They lost their shine and energy. The change was scary.
Don’t feel bad, NotfromVenus!
I unfortunately wreckonciled too 😩
Wow did he promise all I wanted to change. Everything. So, he came back, and instead of the sorry, sad, crying over me every day guy I was led to expect, here comes this arrogant, lazy fool. And still drinking (he had said he quit) and, I found out later, still texting crazy AP when I was at work. OMG DONT WRECKONCILE!
I had to move us both out, and pay for everything, to get rid of him again. Worth it, though
Yes. We often blame ourselves: “how did I not know/see?” But the reason we didn’t see is because our minds don’t go there. We would never act like that. OW pretended to be my friend, when she was after my husband the whole time, and then having an affair with him. Yet she could sit at my table and share food with us and the kids and not for a moment feel guilty about deceiving me. I don’t understand that at all. I wouldn’t be able to show my face if I was doing what she was. (And I would never have an affair with a married person. Gross.)
I struggled a lot with the “how did I not see” after an undeniable heads up in the form of an STD diagnosis. I think that all that is necessary for a bad person to mislead you, is that you are a good person. It is as simple as that; I could not conceive of a world in which the person I loved and relied upon and trusted the most would be endangering me, stealing from our familial assets, and defrauding his own children in order to have sex with the most notorious slut in the city. I loved him, and love is blind. I am NOT stupid, and neither are the rest of us. We are good people, and our partners were not.
And remember, just like they project their bad behavior/ motivations onto us, we project our good ones onto them.
Every time FW did an asshole thing, I’d come up with a reason. I’d file it in the “Reasons For His Behavior” drawer of my mental filing cabinet.
For example: He came home from work and punched a hole in the wall. That action went into the Lots Of Pressure At Work folder.
When he raged into a mantrum -> Dad Had Anger Issues folder
When he drove recklessly with our kids in the car -> He Has ADHD folder
When he ignored me and stayed awake until
2 A.M. every night -> He’s An Introvert folder
Then I got a He’s An Asshole Folder and things started to make more sense. It filled up FAST.
At first I did not have that though, because I projected my decency onto him.
The Howorker did the same to me also, pretending to be a friend and sleeping with her boss, my ex.
But the ex was pretending to be a husband and sleeping with his employee.
When it comes to finding out stuff “after the fact” I can’t quite match EW. That said, while I was cleaning out the filing cabinet after now Ex-Mrs LFTT left the kids and I to be with her AP, I found a some things that really took my breath away.
Firstly, evidence that – 10 years before she left us – she had very methodically gone through the standing orders that came out of the joint account (ie where my income but not hers was paid into) that went into savings accounts split between my name, her name and joint names …… and diverted it all into savings/investment accounts that were in her sole name.
Secondly, proof that she’d taken out an unsecured personal loan for £15K some 6 months before she was busted for cheating and that this money had been paid into her personal account (which I had no visibility of and could not access) ….. but that the monthly payments were coming out of the joint account. In effect I was paying off her loan without knowing it. Funny old thing, she had signed up for internet banking on the joint account some time previously, so I never saw a bank statement, and I never had the password to get online to check what was going on until it was way too late.
I never did get to recover the diverted funds (she’d spent it by the time we got to Court) and I never found out what she spent the loan on; but, as a result of her refusing to state what it was spent on, I did manage to convince the Judge that the loan was not a “joint debt,” which meant that she had to cover it out of her portion of the settlement.
I guess that the lessons are that I was trusting someone that I shouldn’t have (and that her financial creativity stretch back a decade before she left) and that Cheaters are dumb and often leave an audit trail.
LFTT
filing cabinets divulge a lot of things. i too went through the files and what a mess. i had asked my X to take over the filing system as he did nothing to contribute to the running of the household except work and cook dinner on the weekend, arguing he was “too busy with my job”.
i figured that filing would be easy to fit around his “too busy with my job” and here’s what i found. papers filed in wrong places; correspondence not responded to; piles of papers yet to be filed just shoved to the front of the drawers; unmarked files with an assortment of papers not connected to one another stuffed inside; marked files with a thick sharpie that i could not decipher; no thinning, etc. etc. it was a mess.
but i also found receipts for things he’d purchased for himself and for the household and i discovered he lied about the cost of most things, reporting them to me at approx. 50% of the actual costs, on average. keep in mind, these were both small and big ticket items and part of splitting the assets, and he underreported their costs in those negotiations, too.
he never will tell the truth about anything. the divorce is final now (yay!) and i sometimes wonder if a fulsome financial audit should’ve been carried out. i traced the investments and so forth, and there were no problems there, but he did have a hidden line of credit (maxed out) and a number of credit cards (maxed out) that i didn’t know about.
lying is second nature to him, as is secrecy and compulsive spending rationalized by “but i deserve it.”
he really is an ineffective person. that he used to be VP of a large company is astounding to me now–he recently lost his job in a “corporate restructuring” and is looking for work. as i recall, he couldn’t balance his budget at work, either, and couldn’t figure out why.
“filing cabinets divulge a lot of things”. Cheater was a military officer tasked with keeping detailed notes om his work trips including proposed itinerary (“orders”) and budget. There was a specific trip where he asked to take some extra time away for a fun activity with the guys. DDay I learned that he was with her on that trip, but he claimed to have “come clean” on what happened. I found the file for that trip after he died.
Prior to finding that file, I truly still harbored love for him in my soul. When I read that file, I dropped it on the floor and my love was dead before it landed.
I found out my ring was worth half of what I thought it was, and he’d purchased another piece of jewelry worth the same amount at the same time. I didn’t get that jewelry, I wonder who did. That was a gut punch. I think that was around the time I stopped looking at the financial stuff. The money was already gone and it was only hurting me.
lying is second nature to him, as is secrecy and compulsive spending rationalized by “but i deserve it.”
This 100%. Entitlement is strong with FWs.
One of the things I deeply regret, but don’t kick myself too hard over, is that I never went through all his records and files before I left. We lived in a remote area and he traveled a lot for his job (supposedly- I think some of those work trips were BS) so I had a lot of time to do that. But he’s a horder so just actually getting to all the docs would have been nightmare, much less go through all of it. But by then I was so emotionally, mentally, physically drained that I looked at it and just couldn’t summon the will. If I had I might have been able to find proof of the financial abuse he perpetrated on me for 18 years, and my settlement might have been more fair. But in the end, it didn’t matter, I got out with my son and we’ve managed to survive and start to thrive in the 8 years without his lying, manipulative ass.
Don’t be too hard on yourself skunkcabbage. My ex admitted to using our money for his hookers and GFs and to buy his closet sized stash of hidden dildos (yes, really). But he would never tell me how he did it, he just said he skimmed it “here and there”. I drove myself nuts looking through papers and files and bank statements. I called a forensic accountant and they said it’s really hard to find that kind of skimming if I didn’t have a big stash of receipts. I didn’t have his pay stubs either. They felt bad for me and said I shouldn’t bother with them and save myself the $30k it would cost them to investigate. I also live in a no-fault country where they consider that kind of spending in line with “foibles of the marriage”. It ate at me for a couple of years and it still flairs up in me now and again but there wasn’t any justice in it and I couldn’t get the money back and I have to live with the fact that he lied to me day in, day out for 25 years. They’re hideous people ☹️
Thank you for saying that because I was just remembering all the bank statements I got in discovery and how I never looked at them because mental/ physical/ emotional exhaustion, confusion and fear.
Maybe I’ll go back to them one day. But what good would it do? It would probably be like looking for more evidence of cheating.
Instead I can choose to make my own closure and move on.
Perhaps that could be a Friday Challenge: Did you take an action, whether concrete or symbolic, that signified a turning point in your gaining a life? For example, burning papers, cleaning out a house, setting a toy boat to sea and watching it until it disappears?
Sadly, I’m not there yet. Physically free but mentally and emotionally stuck.
I read once about a gathering out west where you make a pilgrimage with an item to throw onto the fire. People brought all different kinds of things. One person traveled a very long way with a huge mattress atop her car. It would be so liberating to burn the mattress I was repeatedly raped on for 10 years. Especially if surrounded by likeminded people cheering each other on.
I never understood why some cultures burn an old man scarecrow on New Years Eve. But now I think I get it
Similarly, my forever husband recounts weird financial things from early in their marriage that now show clearly that XW was an opportunist in all her financial dealings including those with her widowed father, her only child and her current husband. All of these people are good, decent folks and she has taken advantage of all of them. This is who they are.
UNM,
Sadly you are too right. In Ex-Mrs LFTT’s case she didn’t just see me as fair game for her financial creativity, but our youngest two children too. She emptied both of their savings accounts (circa £2K each) during our separation and prior to the divorce being finalised. She even had the brass neck to deny it when I challenged her, even though the bank statements that she had to provide during disclosure made it quite clear that was what had happened.
I made sure that the kids got their money back once the divorce was finalised – for which the kids were grateful – but she even made that as hard as she could. Funny old thing, none of our children trust her an inch …… and yet to struggles to work out why.
LFTT
Oh wow! Stbx tried to do the same thing to our kids! He had sole access to their bank accounts and cleaned them out. Thankfully it has since been returned to the kids, but still! The fact that he even tried to do this is nuts. Cheaters are so selfish.
I just can’t with people who steal from their own children. That blows my mind. When my son was a teen, my ex took him to set up a bank account and get ID (he still does not have a driver’s license now at 22, and God knows I really tried with that for years). So, I thought that was all taken care of. I found out at the time of the divorce that my son did not have ID (at 19) and I asked, how did you get a bank account? Oh, that turned out to be in his father’s name and my son did not even realize that his father could take his money any time he felt like it. I was floored. Took awhile to get all my son’s info straightened out and I told him, I didn’t do all this with you because your father said he did it. I thought you were all set up with what you needed for adult life.
It could have been laziness but why lie to me then? I do wonder if it was malicious on my ex’s part. Did he set his son up so he could steal from him if he “needed” to do so? I think that’s probably the case.
I will never cease to be amazed at the degree to which serial cheaters mistake the devotion of chumps for their own superpower of deception. Tricking someone who loves and trusts you with their whole heart requires zero skill or intelligence, like throttling a sleeping puppy with a baseball bat: the puppy can’t conceive of such a hurtful impulse, much less protect itself. Hell, its eyes aren’t even open. Some
accomplishment!
This is why I think psychopaths can’t understand theory of mind. My son is autistic and he really struggled with that in elementary school. He would think people were stupid for not knowing things he knew. Like, if I didn’t know what his teacher said in class then he would get frustrated and think I was stupid for not knowing. It took a lot of work to help him grasp that I was not there, therefore I do not know what was said. But he finally got it.
I don’t think psychopaths EVER grasp this. To them, they know what they are doing to you and they assume you know as well and are letting them do it. Therefore, you are stupid and deserve it. They don’t see any victims, just willing participants. You see it with criminals sometimes “If she didn’t want to get raped, why did she go out?!” They knew they were going to rape someone that night so if a woman didn’t want to get raped, why did she go out that night? They have zero understanding that other people don’t know they were out for raping that night.
I think my sister and my ex husband are both super fucked up people with personality disorders. It’s something I noticed while watching movies with them. They would get so angry at the victim in the movie, “What, is he fucking stupid?! He wants to get locked in the basement forever?! Why would he CHOOSE that!” and i would be so confused and say, “Well, he’s not CHOOSING that. He doesn’t know these people do that. We know because the movie revealed that to us, the audience, but that character doesn’t know that.” I started to think they were just really, really stupid and couldn’t follow the plot of a movie. My parents were the same way, dad was diagnosed ASPD and my mom will never be diagnosed because she’ll never go to a shrink but is probably borderline personality disorder. They would get viciously angry at movies because the characters did not know things that had not been revealed to the characters yet. It was horrible watching movies with them.
No. It’s theory of mind. Psychopaths do not grasp it. And I don’t care if the science hasn’t discovered this yet, I’ve lived with enough of them. It’s a big, big sign one might be able to pick up on early when dealing with one of these people.
Well said nomar! My ex walked over my sniveling body and said I should be quiet because the neighbours would hear me crying. My ex seemed quite okay with hurting me and he was amused that I never figured it out. He asked me, “what did you think I was doing this whole time?” I said, “being my husband and a father and I believed you were where you said you were.” He actually laughed in my face.
He laughed in your face? Dammit. I’m sorry he did that to you. What a jerk!
Yes, my default was trust and I assumed goodwill on his part. He got away with everything with “work” (which he kept compartmentalized away from me) as the ever ready excuse. I trusted so fully that I think at times he had actual pity for me, that I was so easy to play.
“As you discovered with his time-stamped sex charts (I can’t even), it takes a lot of organization to pull off a double life”. This is something I pulled from the post…it shows me that all the “it just happened” excuse of falling in lurve with Susan was more of an intentional plot than twist of fate of the heart.
That’s another kicker. I’ve heard of a lot of cheaters claiming work makes them too busy to cheat. “When would I have TIME to cheat on you?”
I don’t know, that’s why deception is the key to an affair. Going underground and lying about what you’re doing with your time. But they know this. That question “when would I have time” isn’t meant to be met with an honest answer. It’s designed to make YOU sound unhinged if you try to answer it with some schedule of when they could cheat. It’s a trap.
That time question drives me bonkers in every area of life! Everyone has the same number of hours per day…
I didn’t think FW could be having an affair because he was always with me. But I never once questioned him when he said he had to “stay late” at work, nor did I compare his paychecks with all that overtime. Because I trusted him. But that was when he and OW were getting it on.
My mind doesn’t even work like that. I’m a terrible liar, and it makes me feel SO icky. The idea of keeping up a double life for YEARS is utterly inconceivable to me.
ISTL, same! And what kills me is that FW could always sleep like a baby despite his daily lies. He would lie about working late (say that he was taking care of sick patients, which seems extra awful to me; I mean, using patients as a cover for infidelity is gross), go to a hotel with the AP (or wherever the hell they fucked), come home, give me a kiss, eat the meal I’d prepared (lovingly), and fall asleep easily by my side.
What kind of freak is capable of this?
To take advantage of someone’s trusting nature is beyond gross.
Same. I never questioned work. Right towards the end of my marriage, like in the last month or so, my ex was working super long days. He left at 6 in the morning and wouldn’t get home until after dark, like 8 or 9. I felt so bad for him. Then on Friday he gets home after 6 and looks at his time clock app and announces “All right! I just barely managed to hit 40 hours this week?” And I was like “WTF?! How does that work?!” It turned into a big fight and at one point he asked me, “Why are you questioning me?” and I said, “Because math. Because math actually exists.”
Same thing here. No questions on ATM withdrawals (“I just wanted to have cash on hand”) or going off to the gym or wherever else for himself. I made the mistake of imposing my own values and upbringing onto him. It was truly inconceivable that one person would do this to another, let alone do it for years.
Klootzak has always been a salaried employee so there has never been overtime to look for. It was always having to travel for “training” or “meetings.” The reality was, he would schedule in person meetings at his company headquarters or various places to coincide with hookups with OW. The last main OW is or was located in the vicinity of his company HQ. When he legitimately had training in other places, that’s when he would find filler hook ups. If it was a training location he visited every few months, he would find one main OW in that place. And he would tell them his main base (when he was in the military) was in another country so they would never go stalking him where he lived). One of them was ex-military spouse herself and didn’t care he was married, so he conveniently brought her to sleep in my bed in Hawaii when I was gone for conventions or training, which was less frequent for me as a civilian.
He acted like lying was the worst thing a human could do. He said he was careful in choosing me for a wife because he didn’t want to be a divorce statistic. His parents were divorced and he was so against divorce. He took advantage of my trust that when he said he was gone working, he was actually gone working. FWs are disgusting pigs for lying to their spouses who did nothing but trust them. It would never occur to a normal person that one would have to scour their pay stubs and account statements looking for proof of them lying. They are seriously cracked.
That’s the kicker really. They mistake chump devotion for their skills and intelligence. Like chumps are TOTALLY fooled.
Well yes, some chumps are. That makes it all the more of a gut punch for them.
But some others:
-have suspicions but no proof.
-have proof but need to line up their finances
-know, but they’re scared to say anything
-know but are being pressured by family
-know but are afraid of physical retaliation by the cheater
-know but don’t know what steps to take next
-know but are currently too devastated to make a move.
As the host of my favorite true crime podcast, Simon Whistler, says: “These people are often described as criminal ‘geniuses’ but they’re really not. A lot of them are just stupid and get too arrogant.”
I definitely had suspicions but could not find proof… I’d even messaged the AP angrily once or twice and SHE never said anything to me. My ex husband would lie straight to my face when I’d ask him. I was feeling suspicious and crazy and constantly being told I had nothing to worry about. The body knows though.
“I was good at it. I could have my cake and eat it too.”
Does he think he’s Walter White?
Seriously that sounds like Walter White talking about why he built his own meth empire at the end of Breaking Bad.
“I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I really was, I was alive.”
Is it not weird that the quote of a, dead however, diagnosed narcissist and sociopath sounds similar to a fictional meth cooker/dealer?
“I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I really was, I was alive.”
This is the true reason isn’t it. No matter what excuses they give us and everyone else – THIS is the truth.
Weird that a living person takes on the attributes of a fictional character, yes, but it does seem appropriate that a narcissistic sociopath would adopt that line of thinking.
Another example: the Beth Dutton character in Yellowstone. 🤮
No shade on the actress, but the character is written straight out of a teenage boy’s wet dream.
So tell me why fully-grown women who ought to know better walk around in t-shirts that say “Don’t make me go all Beth Dutton on you”?
Make it make sense.
My eldest son, a couple of years after Dday, responding to a ridiculous series of self-justifying emails/letters from FW, (basically saying I did it for you and your brothers, I was trying to keep the family together.)
“That’s a lie, straight out of Walter White’s mouth.”
Early days after Dday, when the Mindfuck blender was set on high and my head was completely, utterly scrambled, we were meeting for walks and coffees etc (away from the kids). I was trying to untangle the skein (after being blindsided about ten years of porn, hookers and gay bathhouses).
He looked at me and said: “I’m a very good liar, and you were so easy to lie to.”
The last time I spoke with Asshat (more like screaming match) was during divorce in March 2018. At one point he said “Sue & I only lie to you”. That statement literally put me back on my heels and brought me to reality. I almost laughed out loud, it was so delusional. My inside voice was screaming, YOU LIE TO EVERYONE! And the fact that, “Yep, thank you, tell me something I don’t know. I’m not that stupid, just trusting.” As if he was pulling something over on me like a little kid. So glad I no longer have to listen to his bullshit.
Ah yes. As it happens, his family name, my married name, actually means “truth” (you can’t make it up, ha.) So an email he wrote me in the early post Dday days:
“I take the name of my birth very seriously. I only lied to one person, you, and I only lied in regards to my activities in the sexual realm.”
I was married for 22 years, now 6 years after Dday haven’t changed my name (yet). Partly … the paperwork. Partly, I still want to have the same name as my kids. But also: I was always true to my husband, and I am a pathological truth-teller.
I still enjoy the irony 😉
“my activities in the sexual realm”
JFC these people. What even is that?
“You were so easy to lie to.” There is just an empty spot where his soul should be. FWIW, I also hate him with a burning hot passion.
That’s also an erroneous statement by the cheater. YOU aren’t particularly easy to lie to, it’s that it’s easy for them to lie.
Anybody is easy to lie to when you’re a liar.
There’s your Friday challenge. Walter White or Cheater?
Kara I suspect in some cases mirroring extends to copying characters, plots and one liners from movies and books – they aren’t very original but you have to realise they are impersonating a human being first (usually the partner, or someone else worthy of copying)
Totally. My ex-h probably thought of himself as Tony Soprano. No mob ties but a womanizing drinker who was the boss at his workplace.
Not that I know what your ex looks like, but I’m sure a lot of cheaters are like Tony Soprano, but not in the way they think. More like Tony Soprano as in an overweight, balding, sweaty jerk who deserves a good whacking.
i think you’re onto something here, weedfree. copying from popular movies and books. it’s weird. my X once researched and bought an entire outfit that Daniel Craig wore in a Bond movie. we watched the movie and i recognized the clothing and said something and he admitted it.
everything, right down to the trainers.
fantasy is a big part of their interior world.
impersonation. huh.
One of my exes thought he was John Wick. Weirdo would literally lay in bed with parts of his handguns that were the exact mind in the movie and go on about how accurate they were.
Ok bud…
Kind not mind.
“they aren’t very original but you have to realise they are impersonating a human being first”
This!
It’s always the tip of the iceberg for these wack-a-do people.
I am more than a decade out but still find out the odd “truth nugget” because my x is a Minister and occasionally my kids end up being involved in “church world “ with their Dad.
A lot of people just really suck!!
I’m sorry for everything EW is dealing with, but this was so satisfying to read.
“I have never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.” — Clarence Darrow
I found out after the divorce mine had cheated on me 10 years earlier. He still denies it. They only ever admit to what they think you can prove.
Rarity, It’s so frustrating and true that they will only admit to what they think you can prove. We see this tales here over and over and it drives me insane.
Almost everything I know about his affair is what he told me. I didn’t discover the affair, he told me himself, 3 years in, because he wanted to pursue that relationship. He neglected to mention it had been already going on for 3 years when he told me until later. I sometimes wonder if I would have ever found out if he had not told me and I sincerely think maybe not. Now 3 years later, he is finally facing the consequences, and I am CERTAIN that he wishes he never said a word. They broke up and now he wants his Plan B. I am not interested at all. I am certain that if I didn’t know about the affair, he would have no problem letting me stay, completely oblivious to the truth, in fact he has to be kicking himself over it. At one point I mentioned that he is on dating sites and he asked how I knew. I didn’t know. I assumed because of course he is, and instead of asking, I said it as a statement of fact and he unwittingly confirmed it. Had I asked, he would have lied and said no.
It’s funny because I think we have all gone digging for the truth. Or more details, even when the details hurt. I understand that if your FW is not forthcoming, and maybe you don’t have much info at all, many people need to dig up more. It’s hard to leave if you don’t feel sure that something definitely happened. I didn’t find CN right away, but quick enough that it has been a huge help. There were so simple truths I found here that made all the difference. One was simply once you know “enough” you don’t need all the other gory details. Once you learn something that makes the relationship no longer acceptable to you, leave. Period. Obv, if someone lives in an “at fault” state, it makes sense for them to dig up a lot of info as they can use it in court, same goes for misused marital funds. But I know for me, if I had not found CL/CN I would have driven myself crazy trying to find out everything just “to know”. I think that is a symptom of feeling foolish for having the wool pulled over our eyes. But it is a fool’s errand. It’s no longer acceptable to you? Trust they suck and get out and onward.
I agree, SortofOverIt, if it weren’t for CL and CN I might not be where I am now. “In the know”! Knowing enough to get out.
Well said. My former fakeass husband admitted to “trying” to sleep with a girl he picked up, but said he was too drunk and so nothing happened! This, after I found a long blond hair on his sweater. We were still trying to wreckoncile, even though he had moved to the city shortly after DDay. He was coming up to spend his days off with me still. Then twenty minutes later he said the hair was actually from his housemate’s girlfriend. I said, hey, you’re going backwards, you already admitted it belonged to a girl you picked up! He already forgot he’d tossed that one out earlier. So then he just says, “OK! Well, it’s my life!” That was it for me. That’s when I saw what he was and I never saw him since then. Even now, once in a blue moon he emails me clueless things like “you’re my best friend” and “are you sure you want to cut me off?” And “we had so many good years together” to which I answered: our divorce is almost final. Just waiting for the judge to sign off. I hold no fond memories of our time together. He still tries to lie: “I only lied about that one thing you know about.” Ha ha ha he actually said that. That “one thing” the secret year long affair? That one thing? Anyway, that AP told me he had told her about several others. I believe her! Tip of the iceberg is right.
Emma, you just reminded me. Decades ago, he came home very drunk and he had claw marks down his back. He said he had started kissing someone, but then stopped it and nothing else happened. Women don’t claw people when “kissing”. I believed him…stuck my head in the sand….rode the river denial. Forgot about that memory.
Ha ha, omg! Claw marks from kissing! That made me laugh so much! The things we believe! And their calculations about what might work (“only” kissing! “Only” sex, don’t love her, care about her, etc) Their drummed up stories must keep them quite occupied.
It must have been an awful shock for you EW.. I’m sorry to hear what you had been through.. we never know all of it but its true they are cruel and heartless what they do to us Chumps..I’m still married but paralysed and have been reading CL all articles and comments for almost a year trying to get a strength and let go what’s clearly not what I sign up for.. countless affairs /micro cheating u name it. I have 3 children and stay at home I’m so scared to let go even tho I’m in so much emotional pain…
Hope you can maybe manage one or 2 of the first steps – GYN visit, attorney. A friend encouraged me to just take a step, then think about it. A step, then think. Just remember- you must be in covert mode. A cheater is not your friend.
CWFT- I agree with UpandOut. Baby steps. Seek support. Find others like you. Read our stories. Gain courage from them.
I was a SAHM of two, one a severely disabled child.
I fled with the clothes on my back, my children, our pet and whatever I could fit in the car.
He was so mad he went scorched earth on me and left me with nothing.
But people came out of the woodwork to help me! I still cry when thinking about it.
He has taken all my material possessions, but I have things he will NEVER have: Integrity. Community. True family. The ability to love and be loved.
Hang in there, start getting your ducks in a row. Trust your instincts. You will know when the time comes.
You can do this. You’re not alone. But you have to take that one step across the threshold alone.
I’ve often compared it to childbirth. There are people supporting you on either side of the door: Men and others that haven’t had babies on one side, and women who have stepped through it (had babies) on the other side. They may want to walk through the door with you but they can’t. You have to take the step on your own. They are, however, there right before and right after.
Leaving a FW is the same. Again, trust your instincts. You’ll know when it’s time.
My ex was an abusive alcoholic. Part of his AA steps were to write down his indiscretions. Well stupid didn’t realize he was supposed to destroy said paper and I found it. Needless to say it was multiple pages of eye opening confessions. He went all the way back to the time of being a kid. He uses his rank and sexually assaulted a LT in Korea, used his rank for oral sex from an enlisted female, had sex with a friend of mine at a family party, had unprotected sex with multiple women, drinking and driving leading to DUIs, sexting random women saying how bad a person was to try and get hookups, when away for work he would pick up strippers and have sex with them, purposesly tortured prisioners when deployed, stealing, etc.etc.etc. obviously I’m divorced. I let the latest affair have have him. She did the pick me dance and I didn’t. I walked away. Needless to say their marriage is a shitshow. He has no relationship with his kids because she is insecure of me and will not let him coparent with me (supposedly we are having this massive affair even though we live states away)….. I had no clue I was even in an affair lol. Just happy it’s no longer me in that relationship.
This makes me SO GLAD that I just left, without catching him definitively this last time. All the signs (dozens and dozens of signs), knowing in my gut, but he had the coverup down to a science. (I had a previous real DDay years prior where he ended up suicidal and got busy keeping him alive and distracted from following through on what I needed.) But this last time, no confessions just nonstop gaslighting.
This story helps me so much. My payout to him in divorce was A LOT and so unfair in my nofault state. I can’t say I hadn’t occasionally fantasized about this kind of karmic ending rather than him taking nearly 25% of my retirement and another large chunk of cash. But no amount of money is worth sticking around and enduring all the worry and loss of self i was trapped under, knowing he’s cheating on me in my gut. I trusted that he sucked, took my losses, and now I’m rebuilding. It was probably so much worse than what I suspected.
Best to the chump widow!
Well. Ding Dong the witch is dead. Talk about a happy ending.
And before the divorce. I sure hope she was the beneficiary.
This is why sociopaths get away with so much. They woo the public as much as their SO and spouses. His writing, and maneuvering, make him sound like the kind who could kill you if deemed necessary.
I hope you were already sick of him by the time of his death.
The hidden treasure is amazing because it shows the narcissist rubbing his hands together. He has a secret stash that shows how “good” he was at being him.
This sounds nuts but I think his writings would be very useful for the research community. So few sociopaths and narcissists make it to therapy that this could help in defining how they operate.
“His writing, and maneuvering, make him sound like the kind who could kill you if deemed necessary.”
Yes, keeping such an extensive record of his secret sexual basement in a storage locker reminds me of serial killers who keep trophies of their kills.
Seems like it would be an interesting read. Have you considered turning it over to a publisher?
“Whatever he was spilling the beans about, the shrink never stopped, looked at you meaningfully as if to say “You’re dealing with a lying liar who lies”? Sure would’ve been nice to have that diagnosis when the actual freak was on his shrink sofa, just saying.” – THIS! Our marriage counselor DROPPED us when I told her about his double life. Also. Said something to the effect of “I hope you aren’t mad at me for not getting him to open up more.” Ugh.
I have waffled back and forth between burning OW’s letters and turning them into a novel…
Oh, publish that!
Do it. At the very least, it would be cathartic for you. But at best? It becomes a bestseller. I also am considering writing a book. But I haven’t decided what aspects of this freakshow I call my life to use.
It would be HILARIOUS if it became a bestseller. OW is an “author” and like, makes that her whole personality. But her book (well, books, but I never bothered to read her second one) is TERRIBLE. Like maybe one of the worst fantasy/sci-fi novels I’ve ever read.
I’m not good at creative writing, but I might be able to manage, because I can write well when I have passion for it.
Please write it, ISTL! Better yet, in her voice and let it be really bad. I want to see the review on Crow Defeats Books.
Oh, it would need to be in first person all right. It would be hard to make all her grammatical mistakes though. I’m a technical writer and that sort of thing bugs me, LOL. The thing is, she’s a technical writer, too, and writes fiction, and her grammar is just SOOO bad. It’s kind of embarrassing. Like “the kids and me went hiking”. The kids and me. I just…
After reading this I was tempted to plug in the 3 dead laptops we have in the house to see if any actually work and what is in them. But no pain shopping for me after being separated for more than two years and divorced for 1. I don’t have time for it but it is tempting, even now. I will have to keep repeating to myself “trust that they suck”
Living… I would be so tempted too. I think we all understand that compulsion to “know”. But it’s not worth your time at all.
Totally. The trouble with the twist of having to deal with an estate or an ongoing legal issue is that a person ends up having to go through everything because you have to grasp the history and nuance of the situation to piece things together accurately. I generally encourage people to avoid it if possible — hire a pro, ask a friend, etc. — but sometimes that just isn’t feasible.
So my vote is, whenever we don’t legit absolutely have to piece through that sort of horse shit, don’t do it. No good comes from it.
Yes. Two years later I haven’t yet plugged in FW’s computer or phone. I don’t really want to see all his homemade porn with Schmoopie (I KNOW it’s there – he loved filming us having sex, even though I HATED it).
It’s frustrating though, because that’s technically my computer and I could really use it (and there are a lot of photos of my son’s first years on there), but I can’t really bring myself to sift through everything. I’ll probably eventually dump everything onto a portable hard drive and wipe the machine back to factory settings (and sell it, since I don’t really want a huge desktop MAC).
I’ve thought of asking someone else to do it (his sister offered), but I don’t want to subject anyone else to that either.
I’m not sure I could get in his phone, since it’s password protected and I don’t know his code. I think it might be interesting to see his communications with Schmoopie (he refused to turn any of it over in the discovery process). I’m meh enough now that I don’t think it would bother me. I read all her love letters to him during the affair, and I just laughed my ass off. They were so over the top and pathetic. It felt like reading things a teenager might have written. OW was in her 30s.
after Cheaters death, I found an old hard drive in the house and broke into it. Amongst the contents were OWs resume, a file with 4 or 5 photos of me (each one being a horrible awkward moment where I looked uglier, older, fatter than I really was), and an anger management exercise where it said “I never loved my wife”.
I am somewhat sure he kept those ugly photos to prove to someone that his wife was so ugly that he deserved an OW, but not sure if he was trying to convince himself or others. Being plain does not give your spouse license to cheat in a world with standards, but I suppose he didnt live in a world with standards. Not that it matters, but I think Im kind of cute.
Unicornomore, I am sure you are lovely. And I am sure finding those photos felt so crappy. Just here to remind you that some of the most beautiful people in the world are chumps, including supermodels. Cheating is not about what the chump looks like, it’s about the lack of character in the cheater. I am certain you know this, but saying it anyway.
OMG – You just gave me a realization. I think he used to take the most horrible pictures of me on purpose, or at least only ‘publish’ those that were bad. The only time he allowed a good picture of me was when he was in the photo and he didn’t want to mess with how he looked, or the setting of the shot. Most of his social media posts are all ‘look at me and how great I am doing really cool and interesting things that you only wish you could do’.
The camera loves some people. Photos of you looking “less than” mean nothing about how you look and how you’re perceived in real life. I used to be a semi-professional dancer. I knew other dancers who were not great dancers but who “took” great photos. I also knew great dancers who consistently “took” bad photos. Unsurprisingly, the good dancers who photographed badly were the ones in demand.
This is very true. I’ve known people (one actress I worked with in particular) who looked a bit goofy in real life, but took AMAZING photos. The camera loves them. I’m the opposite. I don’t take a good picture most of the time, but I look fine (even perhaps pretty) in real life or video.
OW can make herself look good in posed photos, but in candids looks really dorky. It’s all angles, lighting, and makeup.
Oh, thank you, ISTL and Adelante! I look like a gargoyle in every photograph that’s ever been taken of me (the last good picture I took was my senior high school picture but I can’t get away with using that after all these years haha). But I look nothing like that in the mirror; and my husband, an artist, tells me that photographs often don’t look a thing like their subjects and you get a better idea of how someone looks when you see them in motion. (He tells me I’m beautiful even though I know I’m not, so I think he’s a keeper. Both of my FWs did their best to make me think I’m hideous and I’m still affected by that.)
I’m the same. I don’t photograph well to the point where I’ve had people who had only seen pictures of me gush about how much better I look in real life when they meet me. LOL It used to bother me but meh, I try to live firmly in real life now so I figure it’s better to look better there. I get being bothered by FWs talking about your looks, it still creeps up on me sometimes too. They are asshats though and far too ugly themselves to judge us.
Yeah, don’t search for more hurt. Tempting, but never productive in a good way.
I am another of the ones who learned of worse levels betrayal ofter death and I feel 2 things immediately after reading this post.
Im oddly relieved that my Cheater didnt die in the same way…I dont think it matters way but that hit me quickly
I deeply envy the trove of details this Chump camp upon. I wish I had the same and could look at every single deception and twist. I know that sounds perverse, but I wish that I knew what that part of my life was.
Im thankful to this Chump for sharing this story.
“but I wish that I knew what that part of my life was.”
I’m completely no contact with ex-FW and his family. I do wonder if they knew more about my 30-year marriage than I did. None of them ever reached out to me to express remorse/sympathy. And I was left to file for divorce from a husband I still loved.
It’s satisfying in some ways to get the answers and closure. Boy I wanted that so much for the first few years after DDay. Especially getting to see that the relationship with AP is a total shit show. Yay for that.
In my case I’m doubtful I’ll ever know exactly what FW did. Many have said “He was probably cheating on you before.” Probably. But I’m not looking for answers anymore. I don’t even want to know. If I found a storage unit full of answers I can only imagine my reaction now would be a shrug and “oh… ok.”
I think when you’ve reached meh you’re just happy and thankful to be free of the FW. You already know FWs are complete losers in life. What they did before or do after — meh. Thankful to be free of that ass and not wasting another minute of life dealing with him.
As the shame, fear and embarrassment died down after Dr ex’s fall from grace and loss of his medical registration. I have come to be grateful for the reports by the medical board into his unethical behaviour. Finally I had something in writing to confirm my suspicions. I almost lost my grip on reality due to the depth of lying and gaslighting. Those words based, on investigations and interviews, gave me something that not all chumps get evidence of his narcissistic horrors….
When I made The Rev Cheaterpants tell our kiddos about his cheating two days after DDday, the 9 year old (sitting in my lap, sobbing) asked him “how long, Daddy?” I thought it had been 6 months. He told her a year, so I’m thinking at least 18 months. #asswipe
(She also asked him 6 years later as he lay in a hospital bed with new wifey by his side and told her “I thought my marriage was over” “didn’t you and mom have a weekend getaway a month before you left? And a date night a weekend before?” Well yeah, of course he was going to have sex with me too. I mean, I was there. The lack of respect for women was immense.
“I thought my marriage was over”
What is with this excuse? I can see them using it to delude Schmoops, or even themselves. But why do they say it to the Chump? Uh, clearly you didn’t or you wouldn’t have worked so hard to hide your shit.
Mine said “I thought you were going to divorce me.” Well, no I wasn’t then, but now I damn sure am!
I still don’t get that one.
Yes, the affair completely, absolutely SUCKS.
After my FW died (by suicide), I had to go over to his rental home (rented with schmoopie, but she had left him a few months before – living together really was NOT the same as their fun little affair, which had been going on for 4.5 years before that) to get my son’s things and all the marital property FW had absconded with (a lot of it without permission, which he was required by my lawyer to obtain from me). I found a LOT of fascinating things:
Letters from schmoopie, that covered nearly 5 years, including during our “reconciliation” (definitively proving that not only did they not stop communicating, but that he never intended to make it work with me). The letters made it clear that they often had arguments, or that he gave her the cold shoulder. SO much begging and apologizing on her part.
PILES of lingerie and sex gear, including a copy of “The Joy of Sex” next to the bed. FW and I had never needed all that crap to have a good sex life. One would think the affair would have been spice enough, but they clearly needed a lot of help (not ragging on people who like toys/lingerie, but it was excessive).
A medical discharge letter that detailed Schmoopie’s time in a mental ward for alcohol abuse, attempted suicide, and depression, dated a month or two BEFORE they MOVED IN TOGETHER.
Trash and junk everywhere. The place was a mess. I’m sure it got worse when FW was left alone there, but a lot of the stuff was Schmoopie’s. Our marital home had been even worse before FW moved out (he’d been living there while I stayed with my mom), and Schmoopie was over there a LOT, yet there was rotting food on the counters, moldy food in the fridge, moldy dishes in the sink, trash everywhere, mold all over the bathroom, the yard was completely overgrown (he got multiple citations from the city), so much soap scum on the shower walls that you couldn’t see the grout lines between the tiles, and the toilet was BLACK inside with god knows what. My boss had helped Schmoopie move out of her first apartment (we were all coworkers, yay!), and told me that it looked much the same.
Hundreds of empty alcohol bottles of every sort – wine, hard liquor, beer. The landlord said that he’d never seen so many bottles of booze on a routine property inspection as he’d seen at their house.
A letter from FW to Schmoopie after she’d left him (part of his much longer suicide letter(s)) that detailed her abusive and frankly crazy behavior, including physical violence toward FW, self-harm (according to him – and I take everything he said with a huge grain of salt – she beat her thighs black and blue, and fell down the stairs while drunk, and then tried to pin it all on him; I think the truth falls somewhere between his account and hers, and likely they were equally violent), and the fact that she’d tried to kill herself while her kids were in the house (FW apparently called an ambulance in time – and that was when she was committed to the psych ward). His longer letter detailed even more fights between them, their general misery, and the fact that Schmoopie had had an abortion (hello? birth control?) for undisclosed reasons. It didn’t sound like FW wanted her to, as he several times talked about how they “lost” the baby (though other parts made it clear that it was intentional on her part). I remember my son once told me that they had had to pick up Miss M- from the hospital where she had been for “women’s things” and that he “wasn’t allowed to say anymore about it”, but I’m pretty sure that’s what he was talking about (not that he knew what “women’s things” even are, because he was about 7).
Enough prescription medication to fill a pharmacy, most for depression/anxiety or sleep aids, in both FW and Schmoopie’s names. So much for their public image of affair bliss and twu wuv. (I took medication for anxiety for awhile due to the affair, but I never pretended that my life was perfect). FW had killed himself with unisom and scotch, but that was his 12th attempt. I have a feeling he tried quite a few other things before that, but they didn’t work.
Deposited checks from Schmoopie given to FW totalling about $30K. I also know they were constantly broke, in spite of two very good incomes. FW’s attorney had dropped him for non-payment. He had loads of unpaid bills. He only managed one child support payment, and non of the arrears. Before we sold the marital home, the electricity was turned off (in the middle of selling it!) because he hadn’t paid the electric in six months. His car insurance dropped him because he had too many speeding tickets and accidents.
Anyway, don’t imagine that they are happy, no matter what shiny image they put out in public. They’re not.
Sex toys…..that reminds me when I moved out of our marital house. I knew she would be the one packing and organizing all his stuff, so I dumped the two drawers of sex shit into his closet, closed the door and walked out the door, smiling. Sure enough, I get the only sad sausage text where he’s honest during the divorce about “why did you do that” sort of thing. That’s when I know I had caused a huge argument because I’m certain he said we never had sex. It helped take the shine of their not sparkly relationship. Great confirmation that they suck.
Wow, I totally made a neatly organized, numbered list, and clearly when it posted it deleted all my numbers and paragraph spacing. I apologize for this hard to read mess. Weird.
numbering doesn’t work anymore, i don’t know why?
I think comments are HTML enabled now, or something. For instance, if I put a * (star symbol) on either side of a word, it italicizes it, like this which it never used to. I’m guessing the numbering issue has something to do with that. I’ve also noticed a lot of comments where the font suddenly changes, which could be because the commenter used some type of symbol that was taken as formatting.
Yeah, I was having all strange issues trying to post too. Wanting you to join word press and if I tried it would flash up some huge “400, bad request” image. For about 4 days I couldn’t access any of the comments posted, just the initial post by CL( which is always great, but the comments are the cherries on top!)
I cleared cookies and I haven’t been having problems now. Not sure if the numbers and the font change ups could be fixed by that too, but I had those issues also.
Hope you are feeling better today CL, hopefully Mr. CL isn’t sick too, so he can get you some tea or bone broth and pamper you up. So nice to have loving support if you feel like poop, I still miss my mom for that, she was the best at it, lol. 😬🌷🌻
I’ve written about this before, but 4 years after our divorce FW ended up just abandoning his 3 bedroomed farmhouse rental (plus barn). I mean seriously abandoning it (there was still coffee in the pot) and buggered off back to the States to be with latest Schmoopie. I spent the last two months of his lease emptying that sucker on my weekends and left my kids to clean it on the last weekend. Anyway, as I was slowing going through his stuff I put aside a book on fishing that I was going to put into the book exchange. Thankfully I opened it because out dropped his shrink report which in addition to his bipolar diagnosis, also said dr. suspected he was a covert narc!!! Thank God. I have a strong character but even I was beginning to doubt myself – and in the end it was all him. How he’d been “traumatised by seeing men killed before his very eyes (he had been in the Marines)” – AH was never in a conflict zone!!!!! His last posting (where I met him) was Geneva Switzerland. The biggest security risk to him was getting hit on the head by a Toblerone!!! Oh the stories they do tell!
May a truckload of supersize Toblerones like one finds in the duty free shops land on your ex 🍫 🤣
Man, I would love to just smack the shit out of my ex and his girlfriend with one of those giant Toblerones. I’m sure it wouldn’t feel good but I don’t think it would do serious damage either. That just sounds immensely satisfying.
“The biggest security risk to him was getting hit on the head by a Toblerone!!!”
😄
They don’t lack intelligence, they lack morals and a conscience
My ex is not a stupid person, but his lack of moral insight and honesty keeps getting him in trouble
Wow, it is amzing how these FWs are all so much alike. EXFW is still alive although the Disease Karma Bus may soon hit him based on unsafe practices. After DDay1 and DDay2, I became a pretty good private eye. My son found video and photos that FW “accidently” sent to son’s shared photo account . My son told me and showed me the photos and video (thankfully I had already had DDay1). My son went no contact with FW (my fault because I alienated a 27 year grown man against his father).
During my detective days, I had photo, video, receipts, bank records, phony business accounts and more. Everything went to my attorney. She was so happy with the evidence and how well I organized it! FW thought we would have to wait a year but I was able to file immediately for adultery but it still took almost two years. Truthfully, the law does not care about the affairs as much as they cared about the money and the fact FW lied to the court. Once FW knew he was going to face greater legal trouble he scrambled to settle like a roach trying to get away from the lights! Got a great settlement and am so much happier on the other side.
It is just amazing the stuff that they keep. I cannot believe that he would actually take pictures and video himself and Schmoopie and save it where it could be found. Seems kind of sick to me. Of course, it also made me suspicious of others (who knows what people do). Thankfully, I started dating a fellow chump and we are very honest, upfront and open about our scars and triggers. As to what FW is doing and with whom, I just don’t care but I know that he will get hit by STD Bus one day!
“ cannot believe that he would actually take pictures and video himself and Schmoopie and save it where it could be found. Seems kind of sick to me.”
This reminded me of the porn DVD I found in the case for my favorite movie. Porn is a big NO for me because of religious, cultural and ethical reasons. I’m just saying we didn’t have it in the house so it’s impossible the porn got in that case accidentally.
It is sick and creepy. The covert, passive aggressive sideways communication and revenge.
I can’t put my finger on exactly why it provokes shivers of disgust, but it does.
I suspect he did it to traumatize me (It didn’t. I just laughed my ass off).
Also as revenge for me ordering an expensive, multi-featured, incredibly lifelike vibrator on his Amazon account after he refused to be intimate.
🤣🤣
O.K., I admit I may be a teeny bit passive aggressive as well… lol
I meant to add that he did the switch before giving me my pile of DVD’s after the divorce. So he knew I would open it and be surprised/disgusted/shocked.
Wowza! What an amazing story ‘Enlightened Widow’! It answered a lot of questions I’ve pondered over for years, and my gut feeling was right. I also love CL’s finale – “Well, until the Karmic scheduler took away your fork.”
It makes me think of 9/11 in that the questions were asked as to why we didn’t suspect it and could we have stopped it. My thought was because we are decent human beings who would never in a million years think up let alone carry out such a heinous deed. Fws are not smart just base and evil.
My divorce attorney talked about “the tip of the iceberg.” What you know is only a fraction of what is going on. And once you’re separated, they have more “space” to do their thing, so you REALLY won’t know the extent. My ex made the separation long-distance, which my attorney said was yet another sign that didn’t want me to know what was going on.
I had hints and signs, and as the divorce progressed, we found out more. His attorney blabbed too much with mine, and I told mine to log it but not tell me anymore after a while. It was too upsetting. My ex’s mental health issues also flared, and I had the same response. Log it and don’t tell me any more unless it goes to trial. We settled without court. The thought of having to sit through all of my ex’s misbehaviors (adultery is still for-cause here) didn’t do a thing for me.
Thankfully, there were no custody issues, and I took out everything requiring long-term contact.
Oh Elsie. How horrifying. I get it. I went through similar but it feels like you’re caught in a bad dream all the freaking time. For me, the bad dream feeling mostly wore off but I’m left with no trust of others. Like a dog who’s been beaten too often. I just don’t trust.
Yes, a horrible dream. As this all unfolded, I was so thankful for my “grandpa with an iron rod” attorney. He had seen it all (of course) and talked me down more than a few times, “Now, Elsie. This is truly the worst of it, but years later, you’ll be so glad you leaned into the buzzsaw and got it done.” I realized post-divorce that I had truly reached the limit of my emotional and physical health, but thankfully I got that squared away too.
It took me awhile, but I truly have lovely friends now. I had coffee with some of them this morning. Most were post-divorce as I finally figured out who my tribe was, but it was all good. Dating though? Nah. Not on my to-do list, but that’s OK too.
This is also more evidence that Esther Perel is an idiot of the most dangerous variety. I put her books in the recycling bin to permanently destroy them. Hopefully no one at the recycling center rescued them.
A therapist who tries to put a shine on disordered thinking and behavior is disordered too. Reframing deceptive and harmful behavior as some kind of normal
is outrageous and also extremely harmful.
Imagine if someone was out there giving TED talks and writing books about assault, arson, rape, murder, and larceny and characterizing them as exuberant acts of aliveness…..
Affairs are the outwardly visible symptom of the rot inside someone. Further evidence to validate is helpful but ultimately unnecessary, like how a tumor indicates the presence of cancer.
I’m in a FB group for members of my profession and lately a couple of women there have been posting about their husbands’ affairs and asking what to do. Esther Perel gets recommended a LOT and I got tired of jumping into that cesspool. I’m at the point where I just reply “no, she’s wrong” to anyone suggesting that the chumps read her stuff. I’m sure that I come off as a bitter ex-wife but oh well.
They can ignore your advice at their own peril/Perel
When I got into my serial cheaters phone, I discovered tons of pictures of other women, all smiling at him from across tables. There were only a few pictures of me, all taken when I wasn’t looking and looked awful. I never did figure out why he did that. Was he making fun of me to others, or just himself? I’ll never know. I also discovered what he really thought of me ( it wasn’t good) as well as disgusting text messages between himself and his sex partners. Some of the women didn’t know what he was, and sent him embarrassingly juvenile texts begging him to see them again after being ghosted. He even bought an affair partners son a bike! It was like going through a strangers phone. And all of this was after I found out about only one woman. It really is always worse than what you know.
This post got me thinking about lying in general. I’m actually quite a convincing liar on those rare occasions when a lie is called for. I’m talking about pro-social (aka white) lies, said to spare people’s feelings. After D-day, I told lies to FW that were not to spare his feelings, but to get him to give up his claim on our assets. He bought the lies. I had always been honest, so he couldn’t conceive of me lying. As far as I knew, he had been mostly honest with me, so the same principle applied to him getting away with his lies. The difference is that I would only tell lies that are not pro-social to truly deserving scum like him, and I didn’t snicker about how clever I was when he fell for it. I felt some guilt, because I’m honest by nature, but I was able to push it aside to secure freedom from his abuse and financial security, not just for myself, but for my daughter. I will lie for the greater good if I have to. Post Dday I found out that FW often lies just because he enjoys duping, but mostly he lies to get away with doing evil things.
So I do not believe it is always wrong to lie. It depends on your motives.
Re; todays’s story; what a horror show. That must have been like knife after knife in the back, reading that vileness. My FW deleted most of the evidence, so I only saw a couple of his bazillions of texts and emails to his whore, and that was plenty.
I can relate to this. I’m really good at lying because I had crazy, irrational, abusive parents and I needed to be able to lie (sometimes about absolutely ridiculous things) to survive my childhood. So, I can do it but it’s not a thrill for me and I flat out don’t want to do it to good people. I lied during my divorce to my ex too. Whatever it took to get out and stay safe. I don’t see anything wrong with that either.
EW – My heart goes out to you & your children.
First thoughts upon reading your letter- all chumps need STI testing!!!!
Second thoughts- I knew enough to get away. There is a lot I don’t know. And I’m happy to keep it that way.
CL, you are gold. This response is a keeper for me. My XH had a secret sexual basement & I do think he was proud of himself for most of his life. In his mind, he probably thought “ I have it all.” Now he’s groveling, sending letters of amends to all our adult children. He’s even enlisted his brother (who’s probably almost as screwed up, but thankfully never married) to send texts to them “Call your dad.” Barf.
I truly believe the depth of the deception they can reach is their favorite part. It becomes an aphrodisiac for them, they see themselves as having great power and control over us to be able to pull it off. They are better than everyone else. And meanwhile, we are not even geared to look for that level of dark in people, so, of course we don’t look.
They are totally in awe of their own skills at it, no one could possibly do it better than them. The challenge gets a higher amp level to their reward centers the more successful and longer they are able to pull it off. It becomes their life’s calling and they go deeper and darker down into it, it runs through them wild and unleashed, it charges their minds daily, it takes a hold of them and then they require it to survive. Deception then defines them as a person, they morphed into it, overtaking any goodness their once was in their lives. It was always a choice though, they chose lies and deceit.
They are like an onion that will never be gone no matter how many layers you wind up peeling off of it. There will still be more layers in the depth of sinkage their lives have gone, to peel off. They are an infinite onion peel.
I, too, would think those emails could be helpful to overall research on these defective ppl, not for entertainment purposes, but for the knowledge that you aren’t imagining how bad they are, they are actually way worse than even that!
Maybe a well written book, Dr Omar Minwalla could add the deep dark locker to his sexually deceptive basement reportings and possibly save some ppl years of pain. Seeing the workings of their minds is horribly scary, but holds great value for scientific purposes. It would be like reading the journals of psychopaths to get insight into their machinations towards the goal of preventing their destructions in the future. If that is even remotely possible, hard to know.
There’s a common MO that runs in them all, we see that every day we read here. Be helpful to have it revealed and understood better to save others from our fates.
These are incredibly twisted and dark characters who actually enjoy doing what they are doing. It’s just a game, no matter what they tell you, and they are Olympic champions at it.
I frequently wonder if they are just unfixably disordered or if they are actually evil entities. I think it’s a combination of the two, honestly.
I firmly believe they know the harm they are doing, it is not in any way unconscious. These emails show that right here, it is a power trip.
But they see their convoluted steps as completely essential to the outcome they want to achieve. Nothing is off limits to sacrifice for the end goal of getting exactly what they want and what they feel they deserve. It’s pathological entitlement.
This post gave me goose bumps reading it, which I’ve read once are thought to occur when we still have more to know about something.
We can’t know all there is to know about malignant narcissists!
I do agree with CL, meh seems the more healthy option for all of us to work towards. The dive will only keep us in a state of pain, we have to drop the rope to heal. It’s thousands of miles long and our lives are not long enough to solve the mystery of these freaks. And the mystery isn’t any more than we already know, they are deeply damaged people who can’t be glued back to a whole self.They aren’t out there living the dream, their chaos follows them into every relationship. The karma becomes they will always be themselves.
Chumpasaurus45, I do believe some of them have an evil demon inside. I have felt whatever demon was playing with FW and his mistress, when he asked me to go across to her house one day, to feed her cat. The feeling was so strong, once I crossed her doorstep, that I felt the evil physically. I turned and left. Also, I saw those black shark eyes appear, when he first started the affair, and I believe you’re seeing the demon then. I’m not afraid, I know that good is stronger than evil, but it’s smart to be aware, so we can turn and get away quickly!
Send the correct message.
I, too believe demons are the cause or result (chicken or egg, as they say) of a person allowing evil to take a foothold and eventually overcome them
I believe in science, too, don’t get me wrong. Perhaps, one day, brain imaging technology will reveal an organic cause for shark eyes.
Until then, I’m sticking to the demon theory.
“It becomes an aphrodisiac for them, they see themselves as having great power and control over us to be able to pull it off. ”
Absolutely.
“They are totally in awe of their own skills at it, no one could possibly do it better than them. The challenge gets a higher amp level to their reward centers the more successful and longer they are able to pull it off. It becomes their life’s calling and they go deeper and darker down into it, it runs through them wild and unleashed, it charges their minds daily, it takes a hold of them and then they require it to survive. Deception then defines them as a person, they morphed into it, overtaking any goodness their once was in their lives. It was always a choice though, they chose lies and deceit.
They are like an onion that will never be gone no matter how many layers you wind up peeling off of it. There will still be more layers in the depth of sinkage their lives have gone, to peel off. They are an infinite onion peel.”
So true and so beautifully said. You have a gift for language.
Oh, mine kept a journal, too. And email folders packed with correspondences not only from the primary AP, but others as well. He knew I wouldn’t check, that is how trusting I was.
He didn’t even remove the email folders after DDay. Thankfully, I was able to run copies of several damning ones which I used later as evidence.
Oh, and like his narc mother, he thinks his journal will be useful for when he writes his memoirs. C’mon CN, what should the title be?
sex, lies, and digital files
Nice one!
In the Jewish community, when someone dies the response is “may their memory be a blessing”. It is my biggest hope for when I’m gone….that my memory be a blessing to those I left behind
This piece of shit’s memory is anything but a blessing. I hope that Enlightened Widow has put her life together.
And yes, it is always worse then you know. I knew it was probably true of my ex and after the divorce I found some evidence that it likely was worse then I knew. But he’s way back in my rear view mirror so I don’t care.
https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/choosing-the-right-relationship-partner/
“So, how a person has behaved in past relationships indicates how they’ll likely eventually treat you.
I can’t tell you how often I’ve heard the same story. You meet someone who seems kind and attentive. True, they’ve had some past relationship failures. But it was never their fault. It was either “bad luck” or the “wrong person.” You don’t pay enough attention to how the person conducted themselves. And you don’t question what the person learned from their experience and changed for the better. Then, comes the very definition of craziness. The person behaves in their same characteristic ways but you expect different results. Perhaps you’re naive or vain enough to think will be different merely because they’re now involved with you.”
Cheaters and side pieces use Yelp and Amazon reviews when making decisions but completely ignore the flashing, glaring, visible-from-space neon red flags in each other.
😂
BECAUSE (drum roll)
Nothing is Ever Their Fault
I would never advise another person to join the marriage police force without warning them that they will probably find more information than they would ever believe was there. Once you know certain things, you never “just forget” them.
I believe most people hope that they will find something which excuses the behavior that prompts the “something is off” sense. In addition, many have to start the search to find evidence of financial crimes, and to protect resources. You need copies of bank statements, tax records, credit card transactions, deeds, insurance policies and wills. People who do not know the truth about their financial circumstances need to educate themselves. For instance, I had an aunt by marriage who never worked a job outside of the home or knew anything about how ordinary people lived. My uncle was a good earner and was evidently content with a wife who kept the children clean, the home clean, and meals served on time. But she felt deprived if she didn’t drive a new Cadillac every year, or couldn’t redecorate at will, or was given a specific amount of money to shop for clothing because she couldn’t understand credit card limits or budgets. She had no idea of how good her life was, and I think that leads to entitled thinking.
When the weird sexual basement stuff started surfacing, I was quickly convinced there was nothing to salvage. It’s not “merely” an affair, or an “emotional affair.” It’s not “I was just drunk and lonely.” It’s weird, it’s selfish, it’s misogynistic, and it’s cruel. The intentionality is appalling. It’s as if you were never considered fully human, or worth any respect. Your life and health were put in danger because he/she had to get their kink on. My cheaters were too lazy to rent a storage locker or keep charts. They were opportunistic, short-sighted thrill seekers. It was ridiculously easy to find evidence of their wrongdoing once I started looking. I quickly realized there was nothing worth saving and started getting my ducks in a row.
I feel sorry for the Enlightened Widow that she had to find all of this out because this jerk died. Having to sift through all the “trash” to get needed information is cruel and unusual torture. But I am happy that Karma stepped in, and she didn’t have to go through the tedious court process or divide assets with him. He had already stolen from her; he didn’t deserve anything. I would caution her from trying to share her truth with others who don’t want to listen or know the truth. There will also be others who are just nosy, and love to sniff for gossip. I told my son’s father I would not spread gossip, but I would not lie if our son’s asked me questions. What amazed me was how much our sons already knew.
I would bet that there were plenty of others who knew bits and pieces about his true nature, anyway. He sounds a bit too Braggy and Craptastic to keep everything in the sexual basement/storage unit. IMHO, she should armor-up and have some pithy responses ready for People Who Must Ask Personal Questions.
100% certain these are the thoughts and actions of my XH but he’s still alive. He was diagnosed as a narcissist with BPD or psychopath. Nothing to work with. I trust he sucks. I’ve been no contact for years. My mom is also like this. Prolific liar. 🤬😭
My Cheater died too (suicide). Having to clean up his life exposed a double life for our entire marriage. While all the affairs were horrible to discover, I think the worst part was his penchant for telling all these women how horrible I was, that I was already cheating on him and he only stayed for the money. It was a series of gut punches I fear I will never recover from. It wasn’t bad enough he was living a double life while smiling in my fave every day but he felt he had to drag my character thru the mud to dupe all these women. And in a way once their dead the anger really had nowhere to go, I couldn’t confront him, I couldn’t yell or expose him, he was conveniently checked out (in the most permanent sense of the word) and he literally left me holding the bag. I think he probably took joy right before he killed him self that I would uncover all of it and he was giving me the smug smile from the grave that he got away with it all. These people are psychopaths, there is no soul there.
As hard as it is to find this kind of evidence of their affairs, the proof of their ongoing and long term duplicity can set you free. The bonds of the heart that enrich the marriage experience and can get you through inevitable rough patches can also turn into blinders and co-opt healthy skepticism. Looking back, lots of things she did could of prompted me to probe, but I wanted to believe her because I loved her.
When she told me she wanted a divorce, a switch flipped, thankfully.
Some investigation revealed a AP and DDay. Denials and counter narratives ensued which left me confused blaming myself.
Then during a visit with our kids she left behind a valise she used to carry around her school papers she graded. I became aware of it when our son got a phone call from her and asked him to slide it under the sofa for later retrieval. Late that night I pulled it out and found a trove of documents that revealed much. Printed out emails with the AP she obviously had been brooding over that showed she lied about the timeline. She also was plotting with a girlfriend who was a real estate broker to wrangle the house away from me, all the while claiming to wanting to mediate a fair settlement. Hints of a second AP. I scanned all the papers, loaded them onto an external drive and deleted them from the drive. Put the valise back and readjusted my thinking about the affair and her state of mind. Shortly after that she had a violent incident in the home and I got restraining order to keep her away. I went through all of her personal items to pack them up for her new apartment. She was saving more printed emails and other documents under shoes inside shoe boxes. These proved there was a second co-worker she was having sex with. (Apparently on the school campus and elsewhere) More lies about her whereabouts and extended her infidelity time line back maybe five years. All scanned and put back into their proper shoe box.
While it was hard to discover this deceit, I am grateful for seeing it. It helped me press her in the divorce and eat holes and those marriage bonds. Years post divorce keep these in mind when I have a rare interaction with her. I know she is not who she pretends to be, even if she can fool everyone else. It has been suggested by some that I am stunting my relationship with my kids by declining to be around her except when required. I just say it is what it is.
Bruno, no way do I agree you are stunting your relationship with your kids because you choose not to be around her when you can. You are being exceptionally wise!We can’t unknow what we know and we’re not disingenuous people, as our ex’s are. It is frustrating that the world can’t see who they are too, but many do over time. Not all in life is forgivable, regardless of what all the faiths want us to buy into. We can forgive from a distance if it makes us feel better, but I don’t see it as necessary to healing as is forced on people.
You don’t deserve that kind of toxicity in your life and your kids, who love you, will someday be able to see that too.
My kids hoped early on that I would choose to have a relationship with their dad, that was before they knew very much. They were hoping normality could return to our lives on some level, it’s hopium, I smoked that pipe too.
Over the last five years divorced,their father has shown them first hand who he is and it has shocked the living hell out of them. My baby ( 30 next month) told me he is very glad I don’t have any dealings with him and that he doesn’t deserve to have me in his life for as badly as he treated me. My kids protect me and love me, I know I’m blessed to have that.
It might take kids a while to figure out the deal depending on their ages and exposure to the disordered person, but it becomes pretty obvious who the parent that loves them is vs the one that uses them and doesn’t value them fully. FW’s can’t hide their out of control selfishness forever.
You are doing the right thing staying away from the trash. 100% the right choice.
Thanks for the support. I do feel I have forgiven her. I wish her no ill will, but I don’t want to be around her because of how she treated me and who she is. I have a great relationship with my two sons, who both just gave me my first grandchildren 6 months apart. I just don’t care to share time with her.
“Well, until the Karmic scheduler took away your fork.” HA HA HA HA HA
I would always tell Asshat he wanted his cake and eat it to. He mocked me and said it was “I want my cake and HAVE it too”. Well know he gets to HAVE HoWorker/Wife.
What a complete Asshat.
When I told him that he wants to have his cake and eat it too, he teased me and asked where I found such a weird phrase. They ridicule us, let alone feel embarressed about their lies.
This post today reaffirms how much these people work from the same playbook. My divorce was final a month ago. My Ex-covert narcissist works in a foreign country where I joined him most of the time in a related field that dovetailed with his research. We have several children together, but there were signs of cheating early on and I had many d-days. He was a master minimizer, gaslighter, and outright lying liar who lies. We reconciled, I pick-me danced, and I’m sad to say, wasted 42 years. The bright spot is my amazing group of kids.
I think I would have discovered not only the tip of the iceberg, but the depth of it as well, if social media had come along sooner. I eventually honed my detective skills to hack most of his messaging apps—he used different ones for each schmoopie— took screenshots, made translated transcripts where necessary, and separated them into digital files by schmoopie, and a special file for his plethora of dick-pics. I presented him with a zip drive and then served him with divorce papers. My lawyer printed out four huge notebooks of the same materials for a deposition. He didn’t want the info in the public record so he settled very quickly. I know it sounds like pain shopping and the things I found were and still are traumatic, many found in real time while he lied to my face and I knew it, but he’s charismatic and it was necessary for my situation.
Reading the evidence of the years-long double life my cheater maintained sent me into paralyzing psychological shock for at least 12 hours. I read it over a year after DDay #1, after which he hoovered me and apologized profusely and promised that he would only engage with the OW on work matters and not inappropriately (she was his direct report). I read it on my DDay #2 because I specifically wanted to know whether he had kept that promise, and I could not trust him to answer me truthfully. What I found by reading the texts was very much not as promised but at least 10x worse than I even imagined. It’s so true that because we can’t conceive of it it’s a seismic shock when we see it with our own eyes.
After I could get up and about and function, I planned my getaway. My brain was in full-on flight mode. Reading the evidence was the propeller for me to get out of a 26-year destructive relationship with a narcissistic lying liar who lies. I’m not sure I would’ve gotten out without it. So I completely get how hard it is to see the proof but I think it can have good purposes.
I always wonder how chumps reacted to work affairs. I had a close friendship with an HR manager at ex’s workplace. I debated whether or not I should tell her about it but I didn’t. Ex’s image is everything to him and I would have loved to see his image shattered at work. Perhaps HR was going to just turn a blind eye to it. In the end I decided that my life was too precious to engage with a low class cheater and his low class co-conspirator.
Maybe it doesn’t appeal to you, but I would take a lot of joy in sharing all that stuff with the AP’s current spouse.
Yes, Freewoman. For him, he seemed to gain much more entitlement once the pussy was out of the bag, so to speak. Once he saw that I was NOT out the door, but was instead working our expensive stupid reconciliation program to an intensive degree, I think he felt emboldened. He really did tell me how much lighter he felt now that I knew (knew his LIE version). He probably couldn’t believe his good luck that I was sticking around to “work” on myself and “us”. He was desperately afraid I would leave him for a few reasons, but then he left me, er- I mean, relocated to the city for a better job (left me) to a shared apartment where wives nor dogs are allowed. He said my catching him was “the help” he needed to escape the AP’s addictive pull! She knew how to play him, he said, her entire interest in aging-him was what he couldn’t resist. He didn’t know how to say no and I was the help he needed. Useful. I was used to being so useful. Seven months later, the AP sent me videos and photos of them out to dates, in bed, kissing, him saying he was crazy about her, etc. I guess I wasn’t so good at helping him escape! Ha ha! Then another six months of pick me dancing, bla bla… finally, seeing him moving on to new girls woke me up. I finally ESCAPED his lies and chaos. I did it! I went on a far away trip (that we were supposed to do together) without him- by myself. And had a good trip. It acted like a reset button and now I’m so excited about building my new, lies free, life! I’m really excited about my new career plans and haven’t ever been happy like this the last 16 years of him and his utter craziness. No more secret basement in my house!
I will say, the multiple marriage counselors I tried did call me up and say “there’s no point in continuing counseling, but if YOU want to keep coming to see me, that’s fine.” I wish they’d been more direct about it, though. Saying “no point….because he’s a lying liar who lies.” It took me years to figure out what they were politely getting at, especially since my ex always cast their comments to me as “see? They think YOU’re the only one who needs therapy!”
Even when I dragged him to a psychiatrist due to a psychotic episode, when the Dr. called to check up on us, he insisted my ex put me on the phone and asked me if I was okay. I now realize that he was literally asking about my safety but I was so snowed in that moment that even though I realized my ex was HAVING A PSYCHOTIC EPISODE, I bought the line my ex fed me that the doctor was worried about my state of mind for insisting that he see a psychiatrist. Gaslighting is very insidious.
Great examples of the societal bias around cheating. It extends into the legal, medical, religious and employment sectors, as well.
Thank you Chump Lady and Enlightened Widow. I have long wondered why the lies and trickle truth continued long after d-day. I couldn’t comprehend it, why not just finally be truthful? After reading this I realized the lies, and the deception ARE delicious cake to a cheater. Active deception such as introducing a trusting spouse to your “friend from work” are just a huge cheesecake factory size slice.
My ex- husband would also say that he has turned into a liar. In those moments I could clearly see that he hated himself. This got me stuck with him longer. I thought I owe it to him that I should be patient and not leave him alone.
But I didn’t quite understand this: He seemed all confused and helpless with me. Yet, he was leading a very successful life in other areas of his life. He was an important name in a big company, he kept getting promotions and best employee awards. His projects outside of work were successfull and he was paying a deal of great attention to them. He was logical and sane when he wanted to. He was telling me that those things were easy to deal with, he just didn’t know why he had to sabotage our relationship. He was sad, depressed..He believed he had a personalty disorder and he can’t help it.
I was listening the podcast by Anne Blythe with Dr. Minwalla and I saw this comment by a reader named Kate. I’ll copy paste here. It helped me put things into perspective:
“According to the DSM5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 5th Edition) personality disorders are biological, and the behavior is “pervasive and inflexible. The DSM5 states :
The pattern in personality disorders is maladaptive and relatively inflexible, which leads to disabilities in social, occupational, or other important pursuits, as individuals are unable to modify their thinking or behavior, even in the face of evidence that their approach is not working. Personality disorders are not choices, they are a part of who the person is.
You would see the disorder in all aspects of their life. Ie. Interaction with boss, coworkers, parents, wife, pastor, friends, strangers, etc. But as most of us have experienced with our husbands, they are generally only abusive to us and/or kids, but can put on a happy smile and act like a saint whenever they want to, when they want to impress someone, or when it’s important to them. This proves that their harmful behavior and mistreatment is a CHOICE, not a biological dysfunction and disorder they “can’t help”.
👆100% agree with this. It is absolutely a choice, even if it is a disorder. My ex FW had such explosions of rage and anger at home, with the most ridiculously things making him rage. It left me shell shocked and I walked on egg shells so long I didn’t even realize it was a thing. Then we find out from work associates that in all the 40 plus years of knowing him, he never lost his temper or raged over anything! He was Mr Cool and was known for it. 😳
He would 99% rage on me, mostly, the kids he would lose it with too, but I was his favorite target. If we were driving in the car and he flipped the f out over nothing, the absolute worst thing I could possibly do was plug my ears from the blood curdling screaming with my fingers. No, he wanted me to get the full brunt, not block it from my ears. I’m an HSP anyway( highly sensitive person) to sound, smells, intense bright lights, etc. Yelling at me for amusement’s sake was not ideal for me.
I often wonder who took my place with that. I once asked him after D day 883, if he was as mean to anyone else in his life as he was to me. He said he attempted to show his rage to other mistresses and it scared the hell out of them and they’d run off. I was the boiled frog, didn’t think to run off after awhile, it was just the way it was. I just thought he was ill and he would be much worse off if he lost his family.I didn’t want to desert him. I think he is worse off now as I predicted, but he chose it. At least I can live in yell free peace now, that is a blessing. I think I’m still PTSD’d over it, if someone raises their voice at me, it upsets me more than is normal.
“My ex FW had such explosions of rage and anger at home, with the most ridiculously things making him rage. It left me shell shocked and I walked on egg shells so long I didn’t even realize it was a thing. Then we find out from work associates that in all the 40 plus years of knowing him, he never lost his temper or raged over anything! He was Mr Cool and was known for it. 😳
He would 99% rage on me, mostly, the kids he would lose it with too, but I was his favorite target. If we were driving in the car and he flipped the f out over nothing, the absolute worst thing I could possibly do was plug my ears from the blood curdling screaming with my fingers. No, he wanted me to get the full brunt, not block it from my ears. I’m an HSP anyway( highly sensitive person) to sound, smells, intense bright lights, etc”
Wow, this is so familiar. Everyone else thought he was this amazing person, so generous! so funny! so talented! such a good dad! I think I’m the only one who saw his raging abusive side. I was constantly on eggshells, but like you I was so innured to it through long years of slowly increasing abuse that I had no idea how bad my life was. FW got angry over anything, there was no rhyme or reason to it. It could be something I’d done for years, but one day it was suddenly NOT OKAY.
The car abuse was horrible. FW was a bad driver, but god forbid I ever show fear or ask him to slow down. He would deliberately try to scare me sometimes, braking hard and then speeding up in traffic, changing lanes at the last minute, cutting in front of people, pulling out into traffic where there really wasn’t enough space. I couldn’t even close my eyes to avoid seeing the near misses, because he’d yell at me about that too. He also loved having me as a captive audience and use the opportunity to lambast me with all his pent up hatred. Then we’d get to the event or whatever we were headed to, and he was suddenly smiling and charming and the life of the party, while I was stunned, shaking, and near tears. So I got the reputation for being weird and anti social (which he reinforced to other people), because how do you respond to someone who says “how are you?” after you’ve just been verbally abused for an hour? “Fine, thanks.” If I had DARED to tell anyone, he’d would have put me through worse hell, and I knew I’d still have to ride home with him, so I stayed quiet. Literally no one believed he was abusive, aside from my mother, my best friend, my therapist, and my attorney. All our mutual friends sided with him in the divorce. I’m autistic and very sensitive too, and I also was on a medication some years ago that damaged the nerves in my ears and gave me tinnitus, so there are certain decibels that are physically painful to me. One time FW was screaming at me in the car (I was driving him to the doctor, even though we were separated, and I wouldn’t get in the other lane – FW couldn’t see that it was blocked by a disabled vehicle and several police cars) and it hurt SO badly, and I said “please don’t scream, I’m RIGHT HERE and you’re hurting my ears” and he yelled back “I can scream if I want to”. I left him at the doctor’s office (OW picked him up) and I never got in a car with him again.
FW told many sad stories about how everyone he loved abandoned him, him parents didn’t love him, blah blah blah and I didn’t want to be someone who abandoned him too, so I stayed. I had terrible PTSD for awhile once I left (his abuse actually got WORSE during our separation, and at one point he almost killed me). If I heard the sound of an incoming text (you know, the one everyone has), I would have a panic attack. I once had to sit down on the floor in the middle of a store because someone ELSE got a text with that sound. I was shaking, sweating, my heart was pounding, and I couldn’t breathe. Thankfully that has improved now that he is dead.
Living in peace is the most wonderful thing. I am happily single because I am not risking my peace and freedom for anyone.
And I do know who took my place – OW. She ended up leaving him because he scared her so badly. She fled to another state and changed her phone number.
However, they are lying and scamming other folks who think they are who they think they are. and in my case some folks made some big decisions based on who they thought my ex was.
I think the lying and scheming are part of the disorder.
It is just confusing and a mess for everyone.
I don’t know that my ex had a personality disorder, but I am convinced he was a narcissist so if narcissist is a personality disorder then yes he was disordered. He still was responsible for what he did, disorder nor not.
EW, I hope you’re doing ok and I’m sorry you went through all this. That’s a lot to take in. Take good care of yourself and be kind to yourself while dealing with it all.
I didn’t find such a comprehensive account of who my ex really was but I found a little and it was so shocking. I literally felt like I was in shock. I remember a “friend” telling me that I was being silly and maybe the marriage went bad but he had loved me and I was just shaking my head and repeating. “No. I do not know this person. I was married to him for 20 years and I do not know him at all. You don’t know him either. He is not who he appears to be. He’s a completely different person.” and nearly everybody treated me like I was stupid and overreacting.
But it was true. I found stuff he had written that I couldn’t believe came from him. I did not recognize him at all. He was a completely different person. And when the discard came, his whole face changed. His mannerisms changed. He started speaking differently. He used different slang. He walked and stood differently. He suddenly liked foods that he used to claim made him vomit just from the smell of them. It was the most disturbing thing I’ve ever experienced. It was like a different creature put on his skin. He didn’t care if I saw it, in fact, I think he delighted in my seeing it and knowing no one would believe me. In a way, I think I’m lucky that he let me see it. It helped me flee and go and stay completely no contact.
But yeah, anybody who can hide a whole secret life has something very, very wrong with them. Healthy people cannot do that. As soon as someone starts seeing there’s a whole web of lies, my only advice is run. You’re not going to find nice things and you’ve just uncovered how severely they can compartmentalize, which makes them dangerous. I think most of us only ever see the tip of the iceberg. It was illuminating to see some of what you found EW. Thank you for sharing that.
I’m always freaked out by how many horrible therapists there are who cannot see through these freaks. I got lucky on that front. As I’ve shared before, during wreckonciliation, ex-FW and I saw a marriage therapist for only one session, and after the session and after ex-FW had left the room, the therapist said to me, “Don’t ride that elevator all the way to the bottom.” So thankful.
My adult son is going through some mental health issues right now (potentially related to the infidelity/divorce, potentially not), and I really want to encourage him to see a therapist, but I’m scared he’ll end up seeing a quack and be worse off that he is now. That old adage about all therapists blaming their patients’ mothers has me spooked, too. I know it’s not rational to believe all therapists do that, but ex-FW did tell me years ago that his therapist identified his mother as the source of many of his “issues,” including his narcissistic traits. His father was a selfish, raging, abusive alcoholic for the entirety of his childhood, and the therapist still only blamed his mother?
I love you Chump Lady!!!
Wow thanks for sharing how he operated Enlightened Widow, sorry you had to sieve through that shit heap of stuff. I’m in detective chump mode at the moment, trying to figure a way of proving my other half has cheated, so I know for sure. I sure could do with a locker room of stuff right now!!
A gruesome death? Maybe he pissed off the wrong person?
Even though I lawyered up and got a protection order against my STBXH within 10 days, I still flopped like a fish on land when I hit that D day announcement. If he had not told me some gruesome facts that I demanded at the moment and blamed me for driving him into it the arms of the cafeteria worker who made his eggs just right…I don’t know if I could have done what I had to do. I guess that is why during my whole divorce process( almost over!!! Hopefully) I needed a Switzerland Friend double agent( he told my STBX what I said too)to tell me MORE about what my STBX said about me and his other girlfriends. I heard about steak dinners and how EASY it was for woman to put out for lobster or steak. I heard how he bragged about his online affairs and others…and how I was inadequate to be married to such a hot 61 year old man as himself. All of this banter that my Switzerland friends fed me( he was a “former ” serial cheaters himself and is still friends with my X). So this man kept the cement in my spine to not let up and not to give up on the year long battle for my beautiful-self and my regard for my own self worth. I could not take this unstable liar, hater of woman( he’s afraid of us so keeps us in our place by using us- oh yes the appliance)back under any circumstances. He was not as smooth and definitely more creepy than some of the begging and pleading cake eaters I’ve read about here with CL and CN. I do have a problem with my Switzerland friend as now, continuing NO CONTACT post divorce, I don’t want to hear anymore news bulletins or updates. I also wonder why this double agent will stay friends with my STBX?? I think cheaters help each other to gather the chick’s and devalue them. They share alot of lies, secrets and hidden agendas. They don’t care if they hurt you. They. Don’t. Care
but they LOVE CAKE. Anyway, my bakery is closed and I’m at peace. Oh, and this marriage counselor EW went to needed the boxes of evidence poured over his head. He took the money from the sessions and waited till the cheater died to pronounce his diagnosis..??.
? A waste of time. Maybe these Marriage Counselors are like some divorce attorneys. They know how to milk a cash cow. If you leave the cheater, there goes their milk supply?. I hope that’s not true but all bets are off.
A much more enlightened ending than Sue Miller’s Monogamy….I hate that book, where a man dies and his wife is faced with confronting his affair. Her realization? That the husband was larger than life and loved too much….blah blah blah.
I used to wish my FW would die, but as it turned out, dumping him felt even better.
That is a GREAT story, although I’m sure it was no fun to go through.
“Until the karmic scheduler took away your fork” 🤣🤣🤣
I’m at meh these days but still read Chump Lady from time to time for a laugh. I love the snark 😅
She’s the best!!! #CLfanclubmember