Cheating or Overreacting?
Dear Chump Lady,
I’ve been married to my husband for 5 years (my second marriage, his third). Two years ago I found that he had been online video chatting with random women online and making dating profiles on hookup sites for the whole time we’d been together.
We did the works of reconciliation, individual counseling, sex addiction treatment and so on. But I still can’t get past it.
Nothing was in person, and he says it was just like watching porn, which I have no problem with. So why does it still make me crazy? A month ago he was back on the sites, but lied to me again and again about it before I told him that I knew.
He says the dating sites were no big deal, he was just “browsing” and knew he would never cross that line. (Incidentally, that IS a line he crossed in his second marriage so I know he is capable of following through). I read all of your posts but there is still a part of me that wants to believe him, and chalk this up to his personal sexual exploration, issues with shame, and so on. Other than the last month of going to video chat sites, he’s been doing well I think.
Am I overthinking this because it’s not in person so it’s not really cheating? What’s wrong with him just needing something else on the side? Why can’t I get past this and stop being so paranoid?
Signed,
QueenPickMeDancer
***
Dear QueenPickMeDancer,
Oh come on. You know what I’m going to say. Everyone reading this knows what I’m going to say. There’s a big “Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life” banner at the top of this page. You want me to write it all out, so you can read it… and take another huff of the hopium, special exceptionalism blend.
Sigh.
Other than the last month of going to video chat sites, he’s been doing well I think
WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Seriously. Stop trying to decode this guy. He’s flagrantly who he is. A guy who’s flunked monogamous marriage three times, but keeps promising monogamy, but then is active on dating sites. As in, ergo, NOT MONOGAMOUS.
You sound like you’re trying to talk yourself out of wanting a monogamous commitment. Or wondering where the lines of respect are. Porn? Okay. Dating profiles? Not so okay. A bit on the side? Is that wrong?
It doesn’t matter one bit what I would or would not tolerate in my relationships. It’s what YOU will tolerate. And you get a vote! You do! Life does not have to be holding this fuckwit’s hand at Sex Addict’s Anonymous meetings.
We did the works of reconciliation, individual counseling, sex addiction treatment and so on. But I still can’t get past it.
That’s your answer. “I can’t get past it.” That trumps “He’s been doing well, I think.” Because who cares about his state when he’s inflicting trauma on you.
If you’ve been pickled in reconciliation and sex addiction treatment I know what I wrote is blasphemy. Because it’s assumed you will put his “recovery” above your own well-being. Heck, you’re probably being blamed for his wandering eyes and dick.
You don’t get to call his lies and future faking “trauma” either. Instead, you’re asking yourself if you shouldn’t be more sophisticated and learn to accept it.
I think shit sandwiches taste like shit sandwiches. There are people out there — therapists, professionals, magazine feature writers — who will tell you shit tastes like foie gras. THEY AREN’T YOU. This is YOUR life.
Does this guy make you feel safe? Loved? Cherished? Can you rely on him? Does he water houseplants?
He says the dating sites were no big deal, he was just “browsing” and knew he would never cross that line.
Translation: His commitment to you is no big deal, he was just browsing for the next chump.
You’re married. To your knowledge you did not consent to an open marriage. His shopping days are supposed to be behind him. Shopping indicates that he’s not happy with his current purchase. Or that he would like another purchase because you can never have too many auxiliary kibble suppliers.
That is a huge deal. Unless you are content — and some people are — with being a side dish on his big buffet table of pussy.
knew he would never cross that line
Yeah. Whatever. If he’s playing along with the nonsense of sex addiction therapy, this is the equivalent of an alcoholic shopping the aisles of Total Wine saying he’s just there to look.
How stupid does he think you are?
He’s a guy with a history of crossing that line, and you’ve discovered a whole bunch of paid, subscription-based INTENTION to cross that line.
I read all of your posts but there is still a part of me that wants to believe him, and chalk this up to his personal sexual exploration, issues with shame, and so on.
Am I overthinking this because it’s not in person so it’s not really cheating?
He promised you a committed marriage and you found out two years ago it was all a lie, that he’d been on dating sites the whole time. I believe grown ups fuck. And people date to fuck. He denies physical cheating. But he’s a liar, so you can’t really trust him. And what matters is what’s acceptable to YOU, not what he’ll cop to. You gave him grace to work through his (cough) “issues” — and he continued to lie to you.
His actions say that “dating” is really, really important to him. Do you want to be married to a man that needs dating profiles that bad?
What’s wrong with him just needing something else on the side?
Did you sign up for that? Is that how he presented himself at the beginning of your relationship? Or in therapy? He could’ve asked for an open relationship, but what he seems to prefer is the double life. You’ve got three marriages of evidence on that. Is his double life hiding refugees in his basement? Or his charitable donations? No. His lie is dating profiles. This is a character problem. He’s inauthentic.
Why can’t I get past this and stop being so paranoid?
Because you want the partner he pretended to be and is not. You’re trying to control the uncontrollable — and policing him makes you paranoid. Because he is SHADY. And sorry, probably cheating.
Get an STD test, btw.
The paranoia stops when you leave him. You’ve said twice you can’t get past it — act on that. End it.
Chump Lady, the elf tokin’ off the bong was perfection!
WHERE is this from. It is amazing.
It is from a YouTube show from Germany called “World of Wolfram”. Wolfram plays video games wa-a-a-ay too much. His roommates are an elf and an orc. (Tracy’s GIF made me look this all up.) (BTW, it has gotten so popular that there are subtitles in English now.)
My kids were talking about it a while back so I checked it out. I don’t know if you’d all it ham fisted or what– the Orc casually mentioning torture and grotesque violence a lot (harhar, bleah). I just thought the whole thing strayed into misogyny a bit too much. The only funny bits– Middle Earth denizens having to adjust to tacky modernity– wears out in two minutes but the bits make great memes. The story opens with Wolfram chasing his innocent, humorless former girlfriend who apparently rejected him over his heavy gaming addiction which he lies about to draw her back in (more harhar– bleah). Meanwhile elf girl is determined to destroy the ex and take her place in Wolfram’s heart. My daughter called it a “Pickmelia” theme and I didn’t continue watching.
HoaC, great review. You just saved me from watching it!
Ná! (“It is so” in Quenyan.)
I know – – it also looks and sounds as if the speaker is saying “nah”. But don’t look at me – – – I didn’t make this language up.
QPMD,
Just my halfpennyworth, but I suspect that you are gaslightling yourself into placing the bar for a happy, healthy and reciprocal monogamous relationship a little lower than it should be.
It’s OK to say (and say it out loud) that your husband’s shit won’t fly with you.
LFTT
Oh, I think her bar is a LOT lower than it should be. A LOT.
Yes, this. Just because you tolerated it for a while does not mean that you need to continue to tolerate it.
Your consent to coexist with his sketch y behavior can be withdrawn. It is perfectly acceptable to him “This relationship is not acceptable to me”.
I smoked HOPIUM for years and it didnt make my then-husband any better at monogamy, it just helped him refine his blame (at me for everything) and I got older and wasted more of my precious life on someone who did not see me as a priority.
He lies.
If your partner lies, then you can’t trust that person. If you can’t trust that person, you can’t feel safe. If you can’t feel safe with someone, you can’t be vulnerable. Where there is no safety, trust, and vulnerability, there’s no love. Without love, there’s no marriage and only, as Velvet Hammer would say, a mirage.
You get to leave this cheater after investing only 5 years, which is a relatively short amount of time. Like many chumps, I was married for decades! Don’t be me.
Good luck!
“You GET TO leave this cheater”
I think that about sums it up, Spinach. LW, you have all the information you need to be free of this utter bullshit.
I wish I left my porn addicted future FW 2-3 years into marriage, but no, he appeared to straighten up and I invested 9 more years and 2 kids (so there goes basically my whole body) before catching him having unprotected sex.
Do you have any idea how much I wish CL and Spinach told me, back then, that I could just leave? The value of the advice you’re getting here cannot be overstated. This is the rest of your life!
Me too Spinach. 30 years here and I had my first Dday 23 years ago. Though I caught him in a non-cheating, but still serious, lie when we were dating 32 years ago! I should have left right then, but instead I stuck around for three decades. Don’t be me OP! Get out now.
Me, too, MollyWobbles!
29 years & 1 day after my birthday I had D-day #3. The first two were before Clinton was elected.
All. Those. Years.
By the time the divorce was final, it was 31 years of my precious life. More than half of it. I’m determined to make this 3rd Act my BEST, most authentic life!
Me too! 32 years with my 2nd cheater, 14 with the first cheater. It DOES NOT GET BETTER!
True spinach. 28 years for me.
Me too 28 years
Me too, 28 years. It was a long damn time to cater to an unworthy person.
There is no safe-numbered wedding anniversary (or number of marriages in the letter writer’s case) that will make them stop or settle down.
In the end my Asshat abandoned me and told me I deserved it.
They don’t get better. They get worse, they steal your life, and then they tell you it is your fault. If you wipe their ass for so long you will become toilet paper to them. Don’t be toilet paper.
Spinach, I love your comment so much I took a screenshot of it.
No matter how much as chumps we wish for a different outcome, a different marriage, a different partner (the one they pretended to be), and try with all out pick-me-dancing and skein-untangling might to make it so, we can’t.
The lying, cheating FWs kill it.
Hiya Queen – time to fix that crown. If you get second… go back in the archives to June 26… that was my query to CL and CN because my Xfuckwit was getting remarried and he is still on paid subscription dating sites… actively.
You have a serial cheater on your hands. There is no “fixing” their sense of entitlement. There is no way to hold them accountable for gaslighting you because they are exceptional (if unoriginal) liars. They won’t change because there are plenty of chumps out there (ask me what my 17yo recently asked me about Dad’s “overlapping” relationships since our divorce).
I’m sorry you thought you got your prince charming the second time around (or did you?… surely there were red flags… we’ve all seen them here and gone past them, so you’re not alone). And, a second divorce would suck… BUT not as much as staying married to an abusive spouse. Lying is mental abuse. Fucking randos and exposing you to STDs without consent is sexual abuse. Spending marital assets on dating sites for fuck buddies is financial abuse.
Is this acceptable to you?
I don’t give a rats ass about your run of the mill cheater husband. Sounds like we can through him right on top of the fuckwit pile with the rest. I care about you. You deserve better… and only you can give that to yourself.
I would say that knowing about his cheating with paid randos on his SECOND wife is a VERY red flag. And then marrying him, nonetheless. She needs to take some responsibility here, and fix herself, too.
Can I use that in my divorce no fault state? Sexuall abuse and financial?
Not a lawyer here but just repeating what I’ve observed or heard by way of encouraging you to research how things work in your state. I’ve learned that “dissipation of marital assets for affairs” is supposed to be compensated even in no-fault states, at least if you can prove it. If a FW is tricky in hiding their spending it could require a forensic accountant (expensive but worth it in some cases) to get evidence. One hint I can offer is that bars and restaurants will often hold onto itemized credit card purchase receipts for three to five years showing who ordered what and how many were served. Claiming these assignations were “business dinners” doesn’t sound very credible when it’s only ever two people and one keeps ordering, say, pink Barbie cocktails (itemized receipts can also show that FWs or their Schmoopies were driving drunk from these events which won’t win them any brownie points if they can’t supply an Uber or taxi receipt or otherwise explain how they got to and from these places).
In no-fault states, I think proving sexual abuse is a separate lawsuit. In fault states, the egregiousness of lies and emotional or other abuse involved in cheating might play a role in arranging settlement but the complaint from a lot of people is that courts don’t consider this enough. Meanwhile some people found the courts awarded them huge settlements in reaction to evidence of mistreatment on top of cheating. It seems to depend on different factors.
I was told that, if one contracts an STD from infidelity, it can be a separate tort issue. If you’re in a US state which recognizes “coercive control” (Hawaii, California, Connecticut) as a “sub-violent” form of DV and you can show a pattern of coercive and controlling behavior, you could potentially get an order of protection against your FW and take custody away. It makes going NC much easier. If you’re in the UK and can prove a pattern of coercive control, an abuser can end up in prison.
Again, just things I’ve heard. Interview all the best attack dog lawyers in your area to find out more and check online articles about policies and practices in your area, etc. And best of luck.
Hi Tammy… I’m not a lawyer, so I’d take those questions to yours. But, I would believe that if you can illustrate to the court with documentation (bank statements, credit reports, credit card statements, etc.) where joint assets were spent on OW/OM outside the marriage… you can demand restitution.
I went so far as to subpoena Friend Finder Networks and discovered Mr. Sparkles has ALWAYS had a personal ad on one (or more) of their sites. That documentation was critical in my divorce strategy. Courts love documentation.
Good luck!
As someone who invested 5 years with the wrong guy, tell yourself this story instead, “he was lucky to have had me for 5 years, I am not wasting one more minute with this “creep” and invest all that you are into yourself. Do not rush into another relationship, give yourself years if need be to understand why you would put up with this treatment. Run like your hair is on fire, and know that you only have one precious life that you are wasting on someone so disrespectful. They are his issues, he can keep them. Walk with your head held high, you did all you could and you will model for someone out there how woman are to be treated. Get out now and quit second guessing yourself. He is a pig, face it.
Window shopping without any intention to purchase, eh? They’ll be a shiny bauble he’ll want to purchase if he hasn’t already.
I could have written this letter hundreds of times during my mirage. It.doesn’t.get.better.
Even if we pretend “just browsing” is true (it isn’t), that makes it worse! If he isn’t going to follow through on any of this flirting or whatever, then WHY BOTHER!? He’s going to such lengths to cause horrible, ONGOING pain to his spouse — just for shits and giggles? Wow, what a guy.
We all know he does it to feed an insatiable ego AND to cheat.
My thoughts exactly. “Browsing” is basically shopping with no urgent NEED to buy anything, but you’ll buy something if it strikes your fancy at the right price.
If I need shoes to go with a dress I bought for an event, I SHOP for shoes. If I don’t actively need shoes, I might BROWSE the shoe section and if I find some cute ones that are also cheap, I’ll buy them whether that was my plan for the day or not. But women aren’t shoes. You don’t BROWSE dating sites. His browsing sounds more like “I am actively looking for APs, but none have taken the bait yet”
Seek and ye shall find. There are tons of sex workers on these sites and I think we all know that FWs– if anything– are defined by their low bar for bonk material. After D-Day when I got a look at what FW had been pursuing (and the one that bit), I suddenly understood all the secret liquor store and bar charges. He didn’t cheat because he had a drinking problem; he developed a drinking problem in order to cheat with what was available to him. Beer goggles wouldn’t do it so he had to resort to bourbon goggles.
🥃 🥽😜🤪🤣
I found Mr. Duplicity’s dating profile – with a selfie taken in my bathroom!! When I brought it up in couple’s counselling, he waxed poetically about how it was the same as posting a résumé on a job site: “you know, just to see who might be interested, what the market was like.”
Liars lie.
Chump Lady is right: shit sandwiches taste like SHIT.
Resumé. WTAF.
Strange – I posted my CV on several job sites and I’ve never needed to pay subscription for it.
“I, ___, take you, ___, for my lawful wife/husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until someone better comes on the market or until death do us part. I will pretend to love and honor you all the days of my life, even while looking for other people/suckers who might be interested in my ‘resume’.”
When your husband is giving his attention to any other person than you, that’s cheating. Someone had to point it out to me, too, because I just didn’t get it. The time he was giving to someone else, was time he was stealing from me. And it won’t get better. He’s gaslighting you by saying that he wouldn’t cross that line. He crossed it when he’s still on those sites. Porn is cheating. Again…, the time he’s giving to someone else is time he’s stealing from you. I think you need to divorce his ass and then take the time to understand your value as a person. I took the time to appreciate my value, and that I really didn’t need anyone to validate my value. Your fuckwit will never appreciate your value. He already has a history proving that it’s all about him. When I finally realized my value, I decided that I’d rather be alone the rest of my life than to ever have to deal with a liar and a cheater again. Were I to guess, if you had recognized your value, you would never have found your husband ‘husband-material’. Plus, he would have stayed clear from you because he only targets people that let him get away with ugly shit. The answer is, “Yes… He’s cheating.” The question then is, “When will you decide that you deserve better?”
The question then is, “When will you decide that you deserve better?”
Amazon Chump has given you a Gift that is beyond the price of rubies.
Yes to this!!
“When your husband is giving his attention to any other person than you, that’s cheating.” AND, when they are giving their attention to another person and neglecting their spouse, they often complain that their needs weren’t being met in their marriage, which caused them to cheat. It’s infuriating logic. This it not a chicken-or-egg paradox. It’s obvious that the grass grows greener where it’s watered.
The “grass grows where its watered” idea came to mind so many times when he was investing himself I Susan of Seattle and his wife/kids needed him.
The Era of Little Kids in a family takes all a couple can give to keep things moving along well – its why single parenting is hard but most of us got stuck with the process because they were disengaged. Kudos to all the single parents out there. I was one for a good while.
Expending logistic and emotional energy on strangers while your spouse (and kids if any) flounder is a HUGE betrayal.
Ironic story…when I had to move my elderly parents out of their big house (with mom terribly demented) while I was in grad school, working and dealing with whatever my adult kids needed…my dad was amazed at how much I could get done in one day. I reminded him that I finished my active parenting as a widowed single mother. Guarantee he had never thought of me as such.
Spinach, you’re on fire today 🔥💜
Copying this comment. Thanks!
Spinach,
Indeed, “grass grows greener where it’s watered”. Similarly, in my situation, FW used a lot of language of not feeling “wanted”. The fact that I didn’t do a damn thing for myself and acquiesced to his every whim notwithstanding. I spent a lot of time trying to untangle that shein. Ultimately I figured out he was just looking for that “brand new relationship” spark. That limerance that often comes with a new relationship. It was very easy for his long distance AP to provide that. She was not dealing with his day to day bad moods, tantrums and laundry.
This is crap. You are aware of how awful it is. You have the chance to leave him with your head held high. Some people are blindsided by a FW. Sounds like you knew going in he was high high risk, and here it is again. Cut your losses, take care.
A clear sign of a serial cheater is the fact they’re always looking. No matter who they are with it does not change. It’s common for the next who knows he cheated in a previous marriage to believe they are special. Can’t control that! Nope.
This isn’t an addiction, it’s a character problem. He’s a gross predator. Surprisingly, there’s always someone willing to monitor their blatant disrespect. It’s typically an OW who bought the false narrative.
That’s it exactly- he’s always looking. Instagram, chat sites, and so on. Everywhere, even when he thinks I don’t notice.
“They’re always looking.”
This.
What I found after D-day was that two weeks earlier, when FW was an hour late meeting me and our kids at a restaurant to celebrate my birthday, he was having sex with his co-worker AP.
But she wasn’t special.
After my birthday dinner he said he was meeting up with an old buddy for a drink. He did, but I saw in his text messages when I scoured his phone after D-day that he was also picking up another woman that night and this buddy was his wingman. He went so far as to find out where she worked, her home address, and look up her socials.
He’s with the AP right now, 9 months after I left him, but it’s a little comfort to me that this was never about me. For him, I’m not special, the AP isn’t special, and the woman he tried to pick up that night isn’t special.
He’s a serial cheater with a black hole where a heart should be. You can’t fix that.
Get out now and God speed.
I think the OP is demonstrating one of the most common themes we see with Chumps. We often don’t WANT to believe they’re cheating no matter how clear it is. It’s why someone finds for example, a box of opened condoms in their spouses suitcase, and believes them when they make up a crazy excuse. And it’s why we go digging for more and more “evidence”. It’s like we need to see them on video, in the act, with a copy of today’s newspaper in the frame so we can’t pretend that it’s from 25 years ago BEFORE we married them. The OP knows he cheated on his 2nd wife. And the OP knows he has been on dating sites during their marriage. For an outsider, that is an overabundance of evidence. But often, a Chump needs more. I get it. But I hope she can stop worrying about what he is and isn’t doing, and just start to focus on what SHE feels is acceptable. For me, I’d rather leave and be wrong than stay and be paranoid for the rest of my life.
That’s a really good suggestion. I am so focused on him- what he’s doing, what he’s thinking, why why why, wasn’t he happy?? I don’t think about what I have needed and not received because I mve been so busy trying to be what I think he wants.
Queen, You cannot make another person happy. You don’t have that power. Nor will you ever have that power. So don’t waste spending time trying to get that power. Plus, it’s not your job to make him happy. It never was nor will it ever be your job. Cut your losses. He is not going to change no matter what he says or how many tears he cries. Let the next wife have him (because he will go for a fourth marriage) and let her stress on how to make him happy. You’re 53. Start living for you and only you, else you’re going to die a lonely person that wished she focused on herself instead of others.
Well said!
Deciding what is acceptable to you and what is not is the hardest thing you will ever do. It is also essential for you to do in order to take the reins of your life into your own hands. I don’t ever remember getting clear, concise, instructions about what was acceptable, even in my FOO culture. There were contradictions everywhere.
If you are a grown person who has accepted monogamy as part of marriage, and have been able to live that lifestyle happily, then that is probably what is acceptable to you. That doesn’t mean you will never have temptations, or that your imagination will suddenly shut off. I fall in love on a regular basis with characters in book, or on film. They live in my imagination, with me, in a happy hopium state of mind. But that is the only window shopping I do, because they are not real people to me, and I know that. In real life, the only acceptable partner to be my intimate would be one who practices and believes in monogamy.
Decide what you want, and live accordingly.
Thank you for saying “reins,” and not “reigns.” Yes, I am a nerd. 🤓
🐴 versus 👑
I am fortunate when I spell correctly and don’t miss errors before I hit send. My typing is not what it used to be! Personally, I find nerds to be interesting because they generally know many things I do not know on a variety of subjects. I am sure I am a nerd about my main areas of interest. If having a curious mind, loving precise use of language, and trusting the enthusiasm of others who pursue their passions means you are a nerd, I am definitely a member of that club!
Here’s to correcting autocorrect before hitting “Submit comment” 🤣
“Why can’t I get past this and stop being so paranoid?” This conclusion is just sad.
He is actively lying to you, and you blame yourself for being paranoid.
He has wasted your time and money pretending to get counseling, and you blame yourself for being paranoid.
He blatantly betrayed you for your entire relationship, and you blame yourself for being paranoid.
He conned you into thinking that dating while married is no biggie, and you blame yourself for being paranoid.
He hid a double life for your entire relationship, and you blame yourself for being paranoid.
The “other than that, he’s good” thing is also very alarming. Gurl. “Other than flagrantly stabbing me in the back after multiple promises not to, he’s doing well” — !??!? How are YOU doing? That’s the question. If you’re this hard on yourself for HIS complete lack of morals or loyalty or basic decency, then you’ve gotta go.
Thank you so much for this comment, it makes so much sense.
Agree!!! This, and CL’s reply, says it all. The conclusion is indeed sad.
I fell for that too – I was in a 32 year relationship/marriage with the FW and I wasted many of those years wondering why I couldn’t be sophisticated enough/forgiving enough once I discovered that he was lying to me. I didn’t realize that once I discovered some of the lies, it only meant that he went deeper underground and the trickle truth – copping to what he thought I knew and him blatantly minimizing it – hid gigantic, monstrous unacceptable behaviour. Queen, bear in mind that what you do know is just the tip of the iceberg. I thought, no, believed, that the man I had spent more than half my life with would be better than just a common, lying piece of shit. Only he really wasn’t.
I walked away after DD#2. I cannot tell anyone enough how finally realizing that this was NOT ACCEPTABLE to me has given me self-respect and my dignity back. Yes, I am alone, and have been for almost 15 years now and didn’t partner up again, but my sense of self and what is acceptable to me is really, truly enough. I am happy in my own skin and with myself and my kitty. My children admire and respect me. I am enough.
It’s not to say that I didn’t date again, but I learnt to fix my picker and dodged at least 3 bullets. (Unfortunately I met 2 more cheaters and 1 seriously personality disordered FW.) BUT, I spotted them in time. I didn’t settle and both my adult children have told me several times that I have modelled for them how to choose their future partners.
Staying with him, accepting his shopping, is only eroding your self respect and dignity.
I wish you the best of luck.
Run fast, run far.
The reason you are asking CL to pipe in, is because, in your gut you know this is WRONG! Happily married faithful people don’t have dating profiles, they don’t “look around just to look”. He’s gaslighting you and you want so badly to believe that you’re seeking outside confirmation this is okay. IT’S NOT. If he hasn’t already cheated (cough cough) he’s on the road.
It all comes down to this: are you okay with his proclivities? If you are, great, carry on and just be prepared for your life to be a series of shit sandwiches served by no other than your beloved, who by the way promised to love and cherish. Not sure how looking for other women fits into your world view of love and cherish.
I wasted over 15 years of my life on someone who began telling me many of these same things during our marriage. When he died and I got full access to his secret life, guess what, he had been having physical affairs the whole time we were married, despite his similar pleas of “it’s just porn, I never met her in person, it’s just to blow off steam, I’m a sex addict feel bad for me- help me- don’t leave me cuz I’m sick”.
Listen to those of us that have been down this road. Run like he’s trying to kill you, because, he is.
Who wants to live their life looking over their shoulder and being the marriage police? Waiting for the next shoe to drop? I did not. It’s no way to live.
Cary, your comment sums up exactly what got me to stop pick me dancing and start planning my exit. Deep down I knew that I could never truly get over the affair. I pick me danced for so long that he and schmoopie actually broke up. Then he wanted me back and it was a hard press for wreckonciliation. I was tempted because walking away from over 2 decades felt like an insurmountable task. But as hard as leaving was, playing marriage police for the rest of my life was something I found even more repugnant. And I knew that a life of waiting for the next shoe to drop was NO LIFE. And let’s face it, there would be another shoe whether it took a day, a week, a year or another 10 years…there WOULD be a shoe. And the next time, I’d be madder at ME than him. There were definitely some moments where I thought “what if leaving is a mistake and there was never going to BE another shoe?” And the answer to that, for me, is that either way, I’d live the rest of my life worried about it if I didn’t leave. He moves out this month.
Hi Cary,
I am responding to your wording: waiting for the next shoe to drop.
When my FW left and was gone for maybe a week or so, I asked him if he wanted to come back and he said no, because he would be waiting for the next shoe to drop. What could that mean coming from him when he was the one living a double life? Emotional cheating as far as I could tell. No evidence of physical affair.
When I confronted him, he went nuts and accused me of cheating since the 90s. (I have never.)
Weird!!!
What a psycho. Glad you’re out.
I think what he’s doing is despicable, because of the calculating, wilful intent which motivates this sort of behaviour! My STBXH let slip he’d been going on apps and throwing out baited hooks and to see if any fishy fannies would bite-and one did,( though feck knows what she saw in him! I don’t even see anything worth having in him anymore, never mind if I was only 18 like her! She must have been dog-rough AND desperate if he was all she could pull, or she’d be going out with lads nearer her own age, not middle-aged, drug-addicted drunken failures like him! Please excuse the rant!)
As far as I’m concerned, even if he’d never touched off anyone else, he’d still be guilty of adultery for the fishing alone! The fact I suspect he also did it to spite me as well means he was also driven by malice as well as selfishness and sexual degeneracy.
It’s the intent to commit adultery and that should be enough to let you know he’s a despicable, deceitful, treacherous waste of space you need to get rid of OP, regardless of whether or not he actually had sexual contact with anyone else! You need to accept that he has nothing worth having to give you and to place a far higher value on yourself! Don’t mind what people might think of you, mind YOURSELF and show him and the world you know your worth!
Shadow, it’s quite possible that the 18 year old AP – or maybe prospective AP – is into him for money. If not actual cash, gifts and/or gift cards.
Just saying.
P.S. Her being only 18 disturbs me as well. The Age of Consent here in Ireland is 17, so it was a bit close to the bone, wasn’t it? Too close to paederasty for comfort! Makes me feel sick! If he was giving her stuff and buying her things, he was sort of paying for sex too! Ugh! Grim!
Could be, yes, because he was working up until he lost his job 2 weeks after I kicked him out, so some of those big sums of money he was taking out in the early hours of payday could have been to spend on her , as well as on cocaine and drug debts.
It might also explain why, when after I’d told him I want a divorce and annulment, I told him he could sniff what he liked, shag whoever he liked, whether it was her or whoever, he declared “Oh she’s OUT!” .She mightn’t have wanted to be shagging a penniless, middle-aged, beer-bellied, drunken drug-addict who’d no job anymore, nor a works van to shag her in! Because hardly any young people can afford their own gaffs here in Ireland anymore, so I doubt they’d anywhere else to shag except that dirty old van! Except down a dirty alleyway or the like. Yuk! How sordid!
Thank you Shadow. Intent is there. You’re correct!
When high speed internet became a common household feature, porn became completely different for the human brain. It is 5000% designed to completely change the way the human brain responds to stimuli including, but not limited to, sexual sensory inputs.
People don’t “just look at a little porn” anymore. No matter what you search for, you end up seeing children, and torture, and things in general that are intended to teach your brain to associate shock and exploitation and devaluing and harm with physical sexual pleasure.
Some people advocate for it (and label people like me as prudish) by describing things I would generallly refer to more as erotica. That’s great if you consume it via a direct-access source only. The moment you seek anything out using porn sites, you are always in the exploitation arena — the extreme rapid-fire novelty at the click of a mouse space — the brain destroying drug den.
So as an individual, a person may not find porn objectionable, and I don’t need you to feel negative about it like I do before you can grasp the fundamental fact that high speed internet porn is the environment that it is.
There are so many studies on this. It teaches the brain to be addicted to novelty and devalue and objectify others, and to do these things to extremes. It teaches the viewer that total control is possible and deserved and nothing else is exciting.
It essentially teaches the viewer to become a cheater, feel good about it, and view anyone who disagrees or tries to intervene as stupid and as an enemy who wants to usurp their autonomy and power.
Like a surly teenager, only older and with money and less fear of adults and more experience getting away with lies and aggression.
You can’t separate the rapid fire porn devaluing from the cheating, camming, fantasizing, you-devaluing activity because they are utterly interwoven. If a person doesn’t see the harm all of it causes, porn included, then the person is still in the drug, still putting the drug before everything else.
It’s a drug that’s already all around us with no fee required. You don’t even have to try to view it, because it pops up everywhere. And if you want to view it anytime, you can, in less than 10 seconds.
Dropping it takes real commitment.
Until the person drops it, all you have in front of you is a drug addict in active addiction.
It’s super sad. And it may not be resolvable. Once seen, can’t unsee.
Yes. What Queen of PMDancing calls “porn” is not Hustler or Penthouse magazine from back in the day or the old movies in the back of the video store.
Correct. Not Pirelli calendar girls. More like 🤮 or 😳🤯
I strongly recommend reading the book Pornified, by Pamela Paul. She lays out the difference between modern video porn vs the Playboy centerfolds of old, and discusses in detail how men fall down the pornography rabbit hole, what and what it does to intimacy, relationships, and sex. Modern internet porn is highly addictive; 70% of men have used it, half of those regularly. Half of regular users are addicted. It’s a sobering read.
Thanks for the recommendation, Regret! I will check it out.
I have not read Pornified but I do know that it does not take long for porn to affect one’s sex life. From what I have heard men who watch porn and it does not take a long time to get to the point that they either can not get an erection or they can not ejaculate. Unless the partner has no interest in sex the sex is over and she is stuck if she does not get out. Even if she does not care about sex, she is still being put on the back burner. She is being degraded no matter how you look at it. Over the years or weeks or days she dwindles in how her partner sees her. Partner is obsessed with porn. Who wants to spend more years with someone who lies, cheats, shops for other options, keeps his head stuck in front of the screen, etc. This will not get better with the husband. This is how he lives. It is great for him. Good luck. Well, luck will not get it. Think about yourself and get out now.
Also read it. Highly recommend
Amiisfree and Jennifer, you are spot on with the porn use and how it is not as innocent as one may expect. I don’t consider myself a prude, and possibly long ago before the internet, porn was produced by ‘professionals’ using consenting adults. Now it is the lowest common denominator of ‘entertainment’ and damaging to so many. The worlds largest porn sites can include videos of abuse and rape, underage non-willing participants and victims of human trafficking, as Section 230 protects the company’s (like Pornhub) from liability of including such material on their sites.
During wreckonciliation, when I was hypervigilant, had zero trust, and felt like the FW was creepy as hell anyway, I caught him watching porn and told him I was not okay with it, considering what had just happened. When I discovered he had continued to watch porn anyway with no consideration of me and after I had made myself very clear on my views of porn and that it made me very uncomfortable, it was the absolute last straw. I should have just left after D Day….
I’m a prude too. For one, there’s no way that this middle-age saggy woman will ever compete with a young, firm, 20-something year old. I cannot even imagine sitting on a couch watching porn just to get “excited” enough to have sex. Then for two, I know that I don’t want to have sex with someone who’s picturing somebody else in his mind while he’s having sex with me. He might as well go jack off in the bathroom because it would be all about him anyway. I don’t want that. Ever. And like you point out, it would take more and more “stimulating” scenarios to get the same level of excitement. And again like you point out, the majority of the “actors” in those films aren’t there because they want to be. Porn exploits people. They’ve lost their identity and are diminished to orifices. If they’re just orifices, get a blow-up doll. At least a human being is not hurt.
Agree!
My ex was addicted to porn. Too much viewing causes desensitization and allows for easy devaluation of others. I lived that.
This. All of this. People who are okay with looking at online porn fail to grasp (or just don’t care) that not everyone they’re looking at is a willing participant. Looking at online porn fees the demand for human trafficking.
Yup. The industry needs a steady supply of fresh meat to churn through the grinder. 🤮🤮
*feeds, not fees
And to tie back to what Doingme said earlier, I do agree that there’s a character problem at the root. As with any drug, a person has to already be willing to do the thing in order to start doing the thing — and porn is fairly obviously cruel to so many who appear in it.
A person has to already be able to tolerate sexual violence and exploitation to not be shocked away from it pretty early in the cycle.
Character problems come in many forms and levels. I have character problems. We all do. But the character problem that makes you see someone harming a vulnerable person and feel aroused by it and NOT immediately seek therapy is the same character problem that makes you lie to a partner so you can have a lot of sexual novelty in your life while still using a person for the other stuff you want in life.
That character problem is the subject of this site — cheating a partner out of the life the partner thinks they’re living is wrong. A very bad character problem.
Your analysis of porn addiction is spot on. If anyone doubts the power of images and words to change the way people think and act, they are not paying attention to what’s going on in the world. You don’t have to swallow, or use a needle, or inhale to be an addict. My parents were scientists, but they denied they were addicted to caffein because coffee “was not a drug”. There is so much sugar added to food products, it is almost impossible to avoid sugar — we crave that product, although it may be killing us. We attend our meetings, or churches, or temples and hear words which encourage us to be better humans, but then we go home and are bombarded with all the lies being told to us by politicians and celebrities. Guess which outlet of (mis)information is winning the war of words and images?
One of the problems chumps have is wanting to live the dream of happily ever after with a spouse. We don’t live a life of duplicity, and do not expect our “true love” to be two-faced. We cannot imagine that the lies started at the beginning of the relationship, when we believed we were falling in love. Love-bombing and mirroring are tactics of war, the enemy wants our usefulness, our assets, our ability to succeed. They want us to become addicted to their mirage, and our own dream of eternal happiness.
We have to wake up from the dream and become vigilant to avoid the addiction. We have to go no contact with the source of the problem. We will go through withdrawal from hopium, just like any other addiction. It is not surprising that we make mistakes. Character is developed when you decide what you will do, often after the mistake is made.
He’s hit the predator trifecta: porn, dating sites, and a known cheater.
Doesn’t sound like he’s marriage material.
Did you pay in part or in full for the therapy and counseling? See if you can get that back from him (while he’s remorseful) to help pay for the divorce lawyer.
Ask yourself if this is acceptable…you know it’s not. He has blown past boundaries you set, are you afraid to start over?
I stayed with a woman who repeatedly blew past my boundaries because it just lead to more pain and issues.
I’m afraid to disrupt everyone’s life, a lot old family depend on us. I have many ducks and they will NOT get in a row. I do t even know what my boundaries are anymore.
Ex FW and I also spent much of our time with older family members who thought he was great. I guess chumps with young children feel similarly trapped. Now, alone and in my mid 60’s, I realize he was very image conscious, but that concern did not extend to my wellbeing. Quietly getting your ducks in a row gives you practice at taking control of your own life before he runs through remaining resources. Speak with a lawyer.
I DID IT!!! QPMD, if I did it, you can, too. I told klootzak yesterday morning, “Your cheating and lying just continue. I did not deserve to be treated this way and I will not continue to model dysfunction for our child.” Gave him 2 copies of a separation agreement and my attorney’s name.
You know what feels good? Being authentic. Not being with someone who is hiding extramarital sex from you. Not being with someone who lies to you and continues to get his jollies elsewhere after having committed to you. You didn’t write to CL because you are OK with this; you wrote for permission. So here you go:
“I, MrWonderfulsEx, by the power vested in me by CN, hereby grant you the authority to say ‘This shit is not acceptable to me,’ and kick your lying cheater spouse to the curb.”
You have agency. You get to make a choice. I suggest you don’t keep choosing lies and pain. It sucks but it can and will get better.
Thank you lol- I will write down that I have permission officially and hope that sticks in my hopium addled brain.
Bet that felt good, MWE. You’ve been planning a long time. Congratulations!
“Your cheating and lying just continue. I did not deserve to be treated this way and I will not continue to model dysfunction for our child.”
Hell yes!!
Yay! Go you!
Great! You’ll be way okay when you no longer have to deal with the gaslighting fuckwit on a daily basis. Hang tough! The battle is finite and you’ll come out the winner even if you don’t come out as financially secure!
I’m trying not to dwell on my future financial position. I can handle damn near anything. I just need him to go and leave me in peace. I’m good with finances. I grew up poor but I’m scrappy and I work hard. I have faith in my mightiness.
Y’all know this was a long time coming. I have worked every day in my basement office, imagining myself digging my way to freedom with a spoon like in Shawshank Redemption. I think I just hit the swimming through poop part. But somewhere is my Zihuatanejo!!!
You’re going to be fine. You will figure out how to manage the finances–you’ll get a roommate or find ways to cut expenses or you’ll see you actually have more money because no klootzak.
This is probably true. When I split the accounts, I have a good amount of savings to start with as he had started an account to save to buy himself an Aston Martin. I will either wind up using it for legal fees or it will be my emergency fund.
While many FWs are spendthrifts, klootzak is exceptionally cheap on spending for anyone else but would make big purchases for himself. Thankfully usually spending cash, so there is little debt. If he has the sense to settle, we could both walk away OK. Alas, if he had any sense, we wouldn’t be in this position.
Congratulations! I’m so glad you’re moving forward with your life, and I hope it will be wonderful!
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Keep going !
CONGRATULATIONS !!!! 🎉🎊🎸✊🏽
I am so happy for you MWE. Now is your time, you are ready.
I don’t know back then how long it would have taken me to pull the trigger. Luckily for me he gave me no choices, at least at first. By the time he tried to suck me back; I was done.
Oh and he wasn’t trying to suck me back because he wanted me. He just freaked out when he knew I had gone out with someone, he just didn’t want anyone else to have me. I was to pine for him the rest of my life. How dare I move on with my life.
Presumably one or both of you work to earn income. But one of you is spending that income on cam girls and dating sites. In the house where you both live, someone is putting time into cleaning, cooking, shopping, changing the water filter in the refrigerator, making sure the cars get inspected, paying the property taxes, picking up the dry cleaning, etc. Time spent on dating sites is time not spent on you, your home, your pets, your life, or your kids if you have them.
Bottom line: he is spending marital money and time on his “hobby.”Which means you are spending your work and time to pay for his hobby. Is that how you want to live?
QueenPickMeDancer,
It is so hard to end a marriage…or even a long relationship for that matter… especially after being divorced already. You know you have to. You know FW is lying to you. You don’t trust him. You feel unsafe. But you just don’t want to go through divorce again and all the awful. You’re hanging onto one last thread to prevent the inevitable. That’s why you wrote this letter — it’s your final “Hail Mary.” But you already knew what CL would say. You just needed that extra shove to do what needs to be done.
And you got exactly that… the push to get rid of a FW. I’m so sorry. I think the best next steps here (besides getting tested for STDs — please do that) is to make your plan to get out of this ASAP. You’ve given your all. You have been empathetic as to WHY he’s doing it, but the fact is… he won’t stop. Who cares why? You need to make the decision that’s healthiest for YOU. Time to move on.
You’re exactly right. I knew what she would say, I just needed to hear it. I hope it sinks in.
His actions speak louder than his words. He has shown you over and over again who he really is. He is never going to change, not because he couldn’t, he just simply doesn’t want to change for you (or for anyone else for that matter..)
Some people have a funny idea of what is and is not “crossing that line”. In my college years I had a summer job where I was being sexually harassed. When I say I was being harassed I mean he was making grabs at my breasts and other body parts and kissing my cheek (I turned my head so he missed the lips). The boss was no help because he was harassing me in just about every way but sexually and, quite frankly, needed this other guy more than he needed me. I tried asking the guy to stop, I tried avoiding him but he kept seeking me out. One day he told me all about how sexless his marriage was but then told me he would never actually cheat on his wife because he wasn’t that kind of guy. I found that rather confusing because it seemed to me that he already was cheating. I did not last the summer. I quit early because I was too timid to kick the guy in the balls to make him stop.
Please get out of this marriage as fast as you can. I stayed in a second marriage for too long with a cheater. One of the reasons was that I didn’t want the failure of another marriage- but at the end of the day, freeing myself and going on to live a happy life and find a healthy relationship far outweighs any shame I may feel from another divorce.
“Big buffet table of pussy” isn’t something I thought I’d be reading this morning, especially before I’ve had coffee!
LOL, totally! X-D
Also QPMD,
you have the answers, you know the answers. Subconsciously everything is screaming at you to run, hence the inability to “get over it”.
He needs dating sites to look around and it’s not a big deal because he’s not actually doing anything?!? Cmon girl. You, me everyone here knows that’s an absolute crock of bullshit.
I know , I know, I know—- my inner voice is screaming at me “why the f*ck are you doing this, you would never tolerate this for your daughter’s “ but I feel so bloody stuck.
Forgiveness is letting go of the hope for a better past.
It doesn’t mean letting any of it seep into your future.
You probably can’t move past it with him. You can move past it without him.
I’m sorry you’re in this position, and I also think you’re going to be ok without him. You already know there is life on the other side of divorce. No person should have to be this resilient, but here we are. Here we ALL are. You’ve got this, and we’re ahead of you and behind you.
“Forgiveness is letting go of the hope for a better past.” This is well worth thinking about.
A lot of times cheater say “it was only sex” but the thing is, cheating isn’t just about sex. It’s about your partner, looking you in the face and lying to you repeatedly. It’s about starting to question everything you think you know. If he’s lying about surfing the Internet for women versus just playing candy crush, then what else is he lying about?
Also, despite not being a therapist, I question, whether sex addiction is really a thing. Is he addicted to sex? Or does he have impulsivity issues? OR… has he never grown out of the rebellious teenager stage and he likes to treat you like his mother and rebel.
The question you need to ask yourself is: you do you enjoy playing the part of mother/relationship police or did you marry him so you could be his friend/partner?
That’s it exactly. I do think I could handle some form of open marriage- but I cannot tolerate the lies and deceit. It’s sickening. Thank you.
Queen, I get it, I really do. I wanted my XH to be who he promised, but he wasn’t, hadn’t been for a long time, apparently, and now I know he probably never was — it was all an elaborate con job. You’re probably scared to diminish finances, move, give up the charade that’s your marriage. I get that entirely. Leaving is the “easier” part. Building a new life takes a lot of effort but it’s worth it! You’ll never regret it. Not one person in the nine years I’ve been a member of CL (forum and now FB site) has EVER said they regret leaving and building a new life. Not one! Out of tens of thousands. Think about your future self. You stay….. it’ll be more if the same and worse (abuse, gaslighting, blameshifting, STD, financial abuse, devalue, discard)…. Or go – get your finances split in a divorce, go for your new dreams— with someone you can trust and rely on — YOU! It’s your choice. I chose the latter. Life is amazing at Meh. I thank God I left when I did.
I know this logically, I just can’t seem to get my heart and my head together.
Thank you 😊
Queen, you have a lot of comments that this all makes sense… and you cannot act.
You can. You need to change your script. Or you need to accept that you’re OKAY with this. That your values are, you’d rather be married and keep up appearances and not disappoint old people, or whatever — then leave. ACCEPT that you accepting this shit. And then — you. cannot. complain. Because it is your CHOICE.
You have agency. You are choosing this.
If that sounds harsh, it’s only because I once did similar in a second marriage. And my eternal regret led to this blog, so that other people don’t waste their time. But wasting time on a FW is your CHOICE.
If you’re on this website, you are not really ok with being lied to. Leave him. Like Tracy said, he is not authentic. He is not safe. He is not your home. He is a cancer. He will make you sick.
You’re right. I’m not okay, I hate it with every fiber of my being. I just cannot seem what it together so I keep looking for the magic words to make it make sense. Thank you.
We get it. You’re just trying to wrap your head around it. This is a fantastic group to give you all perspectives,
especially the hindsight perspective from their much broader and older experience. Sometimes you need a sounding board. Sometimes we just need someone to call out “Bullshit!”. You are not alone.
I really wish I had know about attachment BEFORE I got serious about my ex. And the signs that it’s only lust & not love. I confused lust with love. Now I see that my ex was in lust with me (as he was with the AP). After the honeymoon period of excitement, my ex checked out, but of course, we were married by then, so he played along. My ex is in love with lust & is bored with everyday marriage & commitment. He hasn’t changed with the AP either apparently. I suspect that the OP has the same “non attachment” husband that I had. Not worth the saliva to spit on.
OP seems to also have bought into the spiel that “sexual exploration” can be somehow “personal”.
You know what sexuate organisms do, by definition? They reproduce with a mate. As opposed to asexuate, who do no not involve a mate in reproduction.
Sex is NEVER personal. That’s genital. Him and his dick. Not him, his dick and a trillion perverted fantasies (of duping you).
I e never heard that term, but thank you!!
“Does he water houseplants?” LOL. I literally laughed out loud…CL, you’re an snark is unmatched!
I remember when I thought I had zero autonomy over my own life. I mean FW had DRAINED our joint bank account and I still sat there for a second wondering if I should call the lawyer (fortunately I did- thanks to a great women’s group I was in that said, “Hey, that’s financial abuse. And have you heard of ‘Chump Lady’?” But I had no proof of a physical affair and even though there were many Ddays they were all “not really cheating”- of course they WERE- but I didn’t know that and I was afraid everyone would think I was a crazy shrew throwing my marriage away because my husband bought some other woman dinner. The concept that FW was lying about EVERYTHING took a long time to sink in, but I’m so glad I filed for divorce even though there was no obvious smoking gun. Once I got away from him I realized there were many MANY things that were VERY unacceptable to me, that I just couldn’t see when I was being consistently lied to every day. GASLIGHTING is a horrible fog that makes it difficult to see the truth, but trust us when we say- LEAVE THIS GUY. No one should have to put up with that behavior!
Thank you – I keep thinking if I can just find the right smoking gun, something will click in my head and I’ll be able to leave. I’m
“…everyone would think I was a crazy shrew throwing my marriage away because my husband bought some other woman dinner.”
Just FYI, if I were married and my husband bought some other woman (other than his mom, his sister or his elderly aunt) dinner, I would throw away that marriage in a heart beat. We all worry too much about what other people think!
I generally couldn’t stand the film “Gone Girl” but did appreciate one thing about it– exposing the cool-girl pose as nothing more than a Pickme dance. Even suggesting that someone else wouldn’t “mind” a partner having intimate meals with randos is covert persuasion using the comparison game, basically an incitement to “dance, monkey, dance.” It’s all such a crock. Everyone would mind, not least of which FWs themselves. It’s why they lie– to ensure one-sided monogamy. Even in open relationships things like this have to be so heavily negotiated that I’m not sure I’d have the energy to deal with it even if I were so prone.
Really good point. I’ve tried so hard to be open minded, totally compromised myself in really freaking stupid ways that I am ashamed of, just to show him how open and I am and that he doesn’t have to lie – and still here I am.
I was a “cool” wife, and it’s all about a lack of self esteem, accepting what no one who knows their worth would ever accept, and, as CL says, folding up your own needs and wants into tiny little origami shapes to the extent they cease to even exist. “Low maintenance” is another term for it. I was once proud to be called that. Ugh.
And you don’t have to be like the Gone Girl description to be a “cool girl.” I was a “cool” wife and “low maintenance” simply because I let him associate with whomever he wanted, did all the adulting myself, never stated my own needs or wants about anything, didn’t ask who his friends were, didn’t spend a lot of money, didn’t demand that he spend any time with me or our son, let him act like he didn’t know me when we were together, etc., etc. I could see how strange it was when I saw how much other couples interacted with each other and when I heard from friends what was “normal,” but I had a bad example growing up and convinced myself it was ok.
It was so bad and so obvious to everyone else that once, at a soccer game that FW deigned to attend, an acquaintance came up to a friend of mine and asked if we were still married. I remember I was furious that someone could think that. Why on earth would it look like that to her? We just had a “cool” relationship. SMH.
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/13306276-gone-girl… the cool girl quote, and I’m ashamed to say I recognized myself. Not for many years now, but definitely when I was younger I wanted to be the Cool Girl. Such a mistaken enterprise!
Yes, but I have to say I admire the stoic determination and discipline it takes to sublimate the self even temporarily. It’s really difficult. If that determination was redirected, every “cool girl” could probably run an international conglomerate, mid-sized country or at least have a successful career in international espionage.
This is what made me leave my ex. Early in our marriage, I caught him chatting with women online. He swore it was nothing and that he’d never do it again. Eleven years later, I stumbled across his Ashley Madison profile. A day later, I found CL and started making a plan to leave. It was the best thing I’ve ever done for myself. Six years out and I’m still remembering shitty things he did over the years. He was a horrible, mean person, but when I was in the thick of it, I just couldn’t see it. Only a horrible, mean person would be lining women up on the side. OP, I hope you leave. I’m certain that with space and distance, you will be happier. You deserve better.
Ugh, Ashley Madison. He had an AM account, complete with a cute username of a band we loved. when I found that I thought I would die of grief, but I didn’t leave. I should have left then. Thank you.
“Nothing was in person, and he says it was just like watching porn, which I have no problem with. So why does it still make me crazy?”
Because it’s not just like watching porn as he claims. Watching porn usually means watching a pre-recorded video. It’s typically not live flirting, forming emotional connections, etc. directly with another person one on one. Granted I’m with CL and adults fuck so you definitely need that STI test. But his “logic” about “just like watching porn” fails. His claim is manipulation and gaslighting. Game over.
Exactly. Interacting is something entirely different. Thank you for responding.
For me personally, I’m with you in that watching pre-recorded porn isn’t necessarily a line too far. I mean there are the ethical issues and human rights violations with how most porn is produced so it would need to be ethical porn, if that even truly exists, for me to be okay. But it’s definitely the interaction aspect that is cheating for me.
My heart goes out to you. It does get better when you leave. I thought I needed to be with the sex addict serial cheater. But I did not and I have since found a truly loving and honest long-term partner and I would never look back.
Your signature gives you away, Queen PickMe Dancer. Is that the identity you want? Is that your goal in marriage? To keep goading this loser into decent respectful behavior? He clearly has no intention of giving up these behavior. Just being on dating sites at all is a dealbreaker, so far as I can see. He’s not going to “pick you” when he can be all over dating sites and ogle cam girls as if that’s no different than old-school video porn. Bet a dollar he uses sex workers, too.
If you are worried about “failing” at marriage a 2nd time, don’t. Get a divorce and then take a year or two to FIX YOUR PICKER. The lower you set the bar in this marriage, the more your picker needs work. Where are your standards? That’s the real question here. It’s way better to be single that to be with that guy.
My standards keep getting lower and lower. “I’ll leave if he lies again” (lies again, I stay) “Ok I’ll leave if he’s back on Omegle again” (he’s back on Omegle, I stay). I move the goalposts myself, all the time. No wonder he sticks around.
Yes yes yes!! Leave him! Chose peace and a life without the mindfuckery. My FW was, is, and will be going to sex arcades. He says it was just to watch porn. Really? porn is available on his device, so he needs to pay 12.00 to go to a sex arcade for 30 minutes to an hour 3 times a week. That was just the beginning of his admitting to what I had discovered via hiring a PI and some of my own PI work. Slowly he has dribbled out more info but only when he felt that I knew already. So, now its sex arcades, bikini stands, and massage parlors. And next I imagine we will graduate to arcades, bikini stands, massage parlors and hookers at hotels. Of course, his story is that he is only going and being rubbed off there, but I will have to assume that he has received full service since everything has been a lie so far as was it with two of his exes. Unfortunately, they both had enough crazy in them to make their stories seem not credible but now I realize they were right on point!! Don’t forget… Fool me once… fool me twice… and who knows what it is for fool me three time. This chit does not go away. These people are permanently damaged!! The very experienced PHD therapist that I am seeing says she will not accept patients for sex addiction therapy because she specializes in assault victim therapy, and she will not put her patience the position of being in contact with a sex addict in her waiting room since they are predatory and are always looking for their next supply.
Brava to your therapist 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
QPMD–
Since you seem to view pornography consumption as a kind of baseline of acceptability that makes you wonder if you’re being “uptight” about sexual expression beyond that, I wanted to share my perspective of porn as a kind of “entering wedge” issue. Is it really okay?
It’s not actually unusual to view porn use as an entering wedge to cheating even outside of religious prohibitions. Research shows that habitual use of it tends to increase tolerant attitudes towards rape and create squashier views of sexual consent which relates to infidelity in that the chumped party is deceptively robbed of agency, choices and often the right to protect their health. I wasn’t raised religious nor to see sex as “dirty,” but, to me, porn use still breaks the contract of monogamy for these reasons and– given what commercial pornography has become these days (we’re not talking about pastel-lit, almost chaste nudie centerfolds anymore)– does much worse. It breaks a sort of human contract. Regardless of the fact that I’m not personally wired to be in an “open” relationship, I respect polyamorous people far more than anyone who consumes commercial porn because I see it as the human version of dog fighting. It all boils down to consent like every issue related to sexuality. Even though human porn performers– unlike pit bulls– may seem to “consent,” the more one learns about it, the less that appears to be the case. As the violent reality of the sex industry and the trafficking and abuse of children involved in streaming porn emerges, I don’t understand why anyone thinks one has to accept pornography in order to be “cool.” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-rape-trafficking.html
I know it’s unlegislatable to ban all porn but the industry as it currently exists has become monstrous and needs to be put in check. Even aside from all the research and statistics of what pornography does to consumers of it– the estimated 30% increase in aggression or even violence, the steep rise in young men developing sometimes irreversible ED, the damage to relationships and personal lives as viewers are rewired to view other human beings as less than human, the inevitability of increasing tolerance towards violence (which makes up 88% of streaming porn content) and pedophilia (teen and child-themed porn make up a huge portion of content)– there are the terrible statistics and dire outcomes for performers. A lot of the supposedly simulated rapes in pornography turn out to be actual rapes (performers had no idea what would happen to them when they showed up on set; many become addicted to painkillers in order to tolerate the violent abuse they’re subjected to and then are afraid to protest the violence lest they get “blacklisted” and can no longer afford the drugs they’re addicted to); a high percentage of the “barely legal” performers are, in fact, trafficked children; and a certain percentage of performers in currently displayed content are already dead from violence, addiction or suicide. That includes “cam girls.” I’m also horrified by the increasing stories of young girls ending up with colostomy bags because things like anal sex have been so normalized and cartoonized by commercial pornography that, in the absence of genuine education about sexual practices, girls assume this is expected of them in order to have boyfriends or be socially viable. It’s yet another reason why parents can’t allow the “culture” to raise their children and need to keep an open dialogue about sexuality, including the unrealistic depictions of sex in porn vs. reality.
It’s not just because of dire health and mental health risks that I wouldn’t use cocaine or meth but also because there’s blood all over the drug trafficking industry which wouldn’t exist if not for first world, upper and middle class consumers. The same goes for the present day sex industry. We’re voting for it with our wallets (including expenditure of marital assets). Accepting this participation in people close to us can lead to wearing blinders about the reality of it as a natural part of trying not to “make waves” but, unfortunately, we dehumanize ourselves and become inadvertent participants in the horror when we ignore those parts of the things we tolerate. To quote a Russian poet, others may not “forgive in us what we forgave.” I don’t see anything “cool” about becoming increasingly inured to death and cruelty much less funding it. I’m wary that habitual consumers of pornography may have been rendered less interpersonally safe because of it and avoid them. I don’t hang out with people who watch dog fighting. Since they were old enough to grasp these things, I’ve raised my sons and my daughter to understand the difference between healthy sexuality vs. objectifying, abusive, dehumanizing sex and the human realities and issues of social justice involved in the commercial sex trade. All three can discuss these things intelligently (in between the gallows humor and Epstein island jokes, oi, teens) and can casually make such compelling arguments that they’ve been influential with peers rather than being cast out as “uncool.” There’s nothing “holier than thou” in their attitudes at this point.
Anyway, I’m not letting commercial porn be the “camel’s nose” that gets into my personal tent. I can’t stop people from using it anymore than I can stop middle class assholes from scoring meth in night clubs or participating in dog fighting but I can make choices about what I accept in my personal sphere. Research shows that commercial porn consumption can lead to progressively impaired empathy and, frankly, the whole thing just smells like violent death to me.
Yes, porn is not harmless at all, especially as it’s become more and more depraved and violent, probably due to consumers becoming jaded.
Also, I have read on numerous occasions that a high percentage of women in porn, and indeed in the sex industry, were sexually abused in childhood or adolescence. They make a living selling sex because they’ve been brainwashed into believing they’re good for nothing else. Thus, consuming porn, or even tolerating it could be regarded as colluding with CSA after the fact, or in the case of commercialised CSA which is what “child porn actually is, engaging in CSA second-hand.
Thank for this really interesting perspective. In some way I wonder if I’ve just been so conditioned to think porn is no big deal that I overlook it’s importance here. We certainly struggled a lot with sex before dday; I went the opposite direction from our counselor’s advice because I could not accept the sex addiction thing. So I tried just about everything else. None of that worked, either.
My now-ex was being dodgy with his phone after NOT being dodgy with his phone, so I looked up his browser history and found he’d been looking at “no strings attached” hookup ads on Craigslist. (If you type a letter into the browser and they have predictive text enabled, you can see the sites they visit.) I believed him when he swore he hadn’t answered any, when he said that we have an amazing life together, that he wouldn’t be so stupid as to throw it all away, that he was “just curious” about the BDSM community in our new state, that he just wanted to feel smug because he found such an amazing partner. I also believed him because he lost everything he owned in a bad business investment and was starting over in his career; it would be incredibly stupid to lose the one person interested in keeping you fed, clothed, and sheltered, who helped him get back on his feet, who supported him through the decline and loss of his father. I was confident that I was an amazing wife and there was no way he would be stupid enough to trade down.
He was absolutely that stupid.
I trusted that he wasn’t an idiot until I opened our shared computer and saw the emails to his contact named “Fucktoy”. He swore they didn’t actually meet, but they had. Well, yes, they did meet up but he couldn’t go through with it so they just read Bible verses in the hotel room. Strange how I didn’t believe him this time.
Maybe I shouldn’t call him an idiot. We just didn’t value the same things. There was a void in him where his humanity should be, a void that he filled with the thrill of the chase, new relationship energy, and proving he “could close the deal”. I like peace, comfort, stability, emotional intimacy, financial security, mutual respect, and reciprocity. We were fundamentally incompatible so I set him free. Smartest thing I ever did.
2nd Gen Chump. “reading Bible verses”…that’s a good one!
I’m with you in liking peace, comfort, stability, emotional intimacy, financial security, mutual respect, and reciprocity. Could I add that I also like rocking sex of the kind that can only be found in trusting, caring, honest intimate relationships? I can’t accept gas stations sushi as a substitute anymore and– no problem– can go for very long periods without if that’s all that’s available.
It might sound odd to say that truly great sex is wholesome by nature. It’s the communication and the fact that everyone’s actually present and not drifting off into fantasy distractions to intimacy that make surface behavior seem fake. It’s the performative quality of fakeness that makes sex seem “dirty” if anything. It’s hard to explain but one of my measures for that is if, say, something funny happens and causes an outbreak of laughter whether this ends up disrupting the whole session and causing awkwardness or whether it’s just folded into the fun intimate experience. Among other things, FW couldn’t tolerate laughter in bed. That was so disappointing to me because those are two of my favorite things and the inability to combine them seemed like we’re only supposed to bring fragments of ourselves to the experience, not the whole deal. That in itself seems “corrupt.” The kibosh on laughter carried over into other communication issues, like if he did something that inadvertently hurt me and couldn’t adjust and move on in a loving and reassuring way. He’d become stiff and self conscious more than caring and concerned.
I’d always thought FW’s clumsiness, lack of playfulness and deficits in that regard came from a lack of physical giftedness, kind of like he was never a good soccer player even though he grew up around fanatics and could do 75 chin ups. At first I thought the awkwardness was a fair trade on the belief he was honest and decent and maybe it related it to the issue with high intelligence and delayed athletic development (actual studies). But without the honesty and decency to justify the trade, I was just left with the verdict that he was a mediocre lay on top of being a deceptive shit and stupid. No pony in that pile of horseshit. And I really, really like ponies lol.
That might make a good Friday challenge– how, for all their supposedly irrestistble sexual fixations, FWs often aren’t “all that.”
Oops, typo.
You ask if you are overthinking it? I think you are UNDERthinking it.
This. ^^^
Get this scumbag out of your life. His behavior has no chance whatsoever of improving. You don’t really need to write to Chumplady to know that. You already know, don’t you?
queen, with a bit of time and distance from your STBX you’ll find a peace you didn’t know existed. a quiet home with no drama, no more policing, etc. etc.
i have confidence in you.
you deserve MUCH MORE.
Thank you 😊
Bleeech. I can’t imagine why you knowingly bought a broken car, are now surprised and upset that that broken car is broken, and are now trying to convince yourself that you’re good with having a broken car for the rest of your life.
Read up on sunk costs, and gtfo now.
Heck I drive a 2004 minivan, it’s held up ok! More reliable than either husband lol
I was 10 years in when I discovered the online sex ads and the hooker solicitation, and I went down the rabbit hole of “he says it’s just fantasy and flirtation.” I wasted the next 10 years of my life in the mental agony you’re in, only to discover he was in fact fucking everything that would let him. AND most importantly – I should have left much sooner because he was an asshole. The cheating was just the icing on the shit cupcake.
Don’t be me.
Yes, “it’s just a fantasy, innocent flirting with no intent. It didn’t mean anything.” I can’t stand hearing that. Thank you for your comment.
The main damage is those wasted years, we can take two jobs, we can economies, we can’t get back those years we gave to a lying cheat, while making life decisions based on lies. He/she made his/her decisions based on truth, we made ours based on lies.
In my case everyone that mattered knew he was a lying con artist POS after his house of cards fell. He destroyed his life way more than he did mine, but those years we were emotionally, verbally, physically and financially loving and committed to a liar. That can’t be fixed, we just have to swallow it and move on.
Yeah, I gave 18 years to a totally different brand of FW. The lost time is a killer.
I agree that the robbery of time is unforgivable. But, no thanks to FWs, we might be able to actually extend our lives and the quality of our lives by– once and for all and thoroughly– rejecting ersatz forms of love from bad faith players. We could even end up ahead of the game in some senses compared to people who’s tolerance was never so severely tested and who end up tolerating little clots of poison in their personal spheres that eventually metastasize. It doesn’t always work out this way and this is tragic and a crime. But I think about how people I’ve known who were allergic or intolerant to certain things like alcohol or junk food ended up healthier in the long run from being forced to avoid toxic crap. A disadvantage became an advantage. I cling to that concept.
Queen pick me,
I wanted to scream out loud “ are you kidding me?!?” after reading your post. There are 99 very obvious to anyone else reading your post serious problems and red flags with this character going down and you focus on the only one thing you can change, yourself. We understand that mentality, but it is not the view you should be using.
Are you overthinking it? Should you be compassionate and let him work on his “ personal explorations” or issues with shame?
“Nothing was in person, and he says it was just like watching porn, which I have no problem with. So why does it still make me crazy?”
Queen, you so desperately want to make it okay with your brain, that you are gaslighting yourself.
And the reason it is not okay with your brain? Because it is NOT in any way, shape or form okay and you already know that!!! Your gut knows it anyway, your brain doesn’t want to give up the hold on your second marriage you have been so carefully and lovingly cultivating in the last five years. You don’t want to lose it.
But, here’s the thing, you didn’t lose it, HE DID!
Don’t listen to his words or his promises, watch his actions, his shopping around for your replacement behaviors, that is so not okay!
He’s had two previous marriages he already destroyed and he’s learned a lot from them, how to manipulate bigger, better, faster, he’s a master of the game now.
And he’s picked someone that he knows will give absolutely everything she can to the marriage to make it succeed.
That is the perfect scenario for a cheater, made to order cover for him, as he gets back to business as usual of using women he views as less than himself, he prides himself on being able to get and do whatever the hell he wants.
I’m in the camp of porn being a deep, dark brain changer and very dangerous to healthy relationships. It cheapens intimacy. This guy is unfixable IMO Queen, and he is devaluing you and disrespecting you every single day you continue to be with him.
Is he a cheater though, you wonder?! You are asking the wrong question.
Is his behaviors of robbing you of the feelings of safety, love, trust, time, finances, self esteem, security, and sanity acceptable to you?!
He has shown you who he is, hell, he’s shown two women before you who he is too and that’s just who he is! Your love and hope can’t change who he is. He is a disordered person and you are looking for a healthy life.
He’s doing well, you think this last month, other than going to video chat sites though?
Listen to that in your own head. Journal and write down the way he makes you feel doing all this shit.
Is that the man that loves you? Is he even remotely capable of loving anything but his own dick?
You need to get away and fast and you already know it, you just need some support to pull the plug. It’s unanimous from CN, pull the plug!!
The comments you have received here are outstanding, I’ve saved so many of them myself. Read them over and over when you are in a quiet place and absorb the caring and hard won wisdom they contain.
This guy is not a good man, I’m sorry that’s true and I’m sorry how badly he has hurt you. But you can and will heal and be so much better without him.
You will see so much more of what you have endured after you get away from him. It’s hard to see the abuse when you are in the middle of it and it is abuse.
He is cheating on you, even if he had no dick to stick in anyone at all, he’s a lying liar who lies.( and a hooking up cheater, but you don’t even need all the details to know you have to get away)
We all got burnt by these losers, that’s why it’s easier for us to recognize the games that go on.
I stayed another 31 years after I was cheated on the first time. Don’t be me.
Being single and at peace is light years better than being married and unsafe.
You know it in your heart anyway. Only took you 5 years to get out, you are doing way better than most and you are going to be okay. Better than okay, free from abuse.
Tell that guy what he is doing is not acceptable to you and suggest to him he remain single, he is most definitely not partner material for anyone at all.
This comment hit really hard:” He’s had two previous marriages he already destroyed and he’s learned a lot from them, how to manipulate bigger, better, faster, he’s a master of the game now.” He truly is. Other than the problem of taking off his clothes with internet girls and making dating profiles with cute names, he’s a stellar husband. Yes he waters the plants, walks the dogs, my mother thinks he hung the moon. I have no idea if he really wants to do that stuff or if he just likes being the hero, be the knows he has this dark side. Ugh. Here I am untangling the skein.
5 years is nothing. Try imagining 36 years of being lied to. Be happy he didn’t waste more of your precious time. You will be happier without him. I’m surprised that your FW isn’t sitting in front of his computer with his pants down and a knife sticking out of his throat. This bullshit about “sexual addiction treatment” is the biggest con job FWs have going. I can’t even imagine being in a room while some idiot FW whines “I’m so addicted to porn, I can’t help myself”, meanwhile he’s not doing dinner, dishes, laundry, etc. It’s nauseating.
That was almost funny – he said he was addicted to sex. An alcoholic will drink with anyone, they love drinking. But He was avoiding sex with me. Any good addict loves to indulge their drug of choice- but he kept that away from me to the point I thought he didn’t like sex.
The reason he’s not trying to have sex with you (even though sex is supposedly his “drug of choice”):
because he isn’t addicted to sex.
He’s addicted to betrayal.
Really think about what that means, to be married to someone who gets turned on by hurting you… There is nothing to work with. Don’t wait for your heart to catch up to your brain. Let your brain make those decisions for now, later on your heart will figure it out.
Such a good point! It was never about sex at all. I remember now wondering where the sex went. It was always about Ego, Manipulation and Control. You’re point about “hurting” someone rings true. There is a definite element of cruelty, ie, “callous indifference to or pleasure in causing pain and suffering”
In my own marriage, my FW of 36 years wasn’t interested in me at all. I found out after he died he was hugely into dominating “SUBS”, both men and women. There were always elements of pain and cruelty involved in his sadism. I wonder now if he in some way enjoyed the thought of causing me pain, either physical or emotional. I’ve pretty much realized he was saying “fuck you” to me and all of his “SUBS” and telling us we did not matter at all. Some degenerate pathology was driving him. Pure egotism and narcissism. Psychopathic fuck.
Ouch, that’s exactly right. The last go round was so deliberate, that I kept wondering if he was angry at me – why hide it when I knew it was happening? But he was adamant that I was paranoid and suspicious for no reason.
Yes, when you realise they’ve betrayed you in this foul, depraved way that is adultery, in any and all it’s forms, you HAVE to make a conscious decision to make your head rule your heart!
You then either get rid of them immediately if you have the means and resources to do so, or you put your guard up, observe ( it’s amazing what you can see out of the corner of your eye when they think you’re not looking!), listen and build a case whilst gathering as much evidence and as much in the way of support and resources as you can. You have to tell yourself to detach and detach and detach, over and over again and to keep your plans a secret from them until you’re ready to act. As Richard Grannon (Spartan Life Coach) has said in one of his recent videos, you have to become goal orientated and behave in a sociopathic manner for the time you need to get your plans enacted and everything you need to divorce and go it alone in place. This is hard for those of us who are genuine, but I reminded myself I was doing it to look after myself and my son, not out of malice ( unlike him!). Thankfully, I only needed to keep it up for a fortnight but if you need to keep it up for longer, ensure you have emotional support- the Samaritans if there’s no one else can be a great help. Give yourself as much regular time away from him as possible, without making him suspicious, either with REAL friends or alone so you can be yourself and not have to put on an act 24/7, because we chumps are not anywhere near as comfortable being less than open, honest and genuine as FWs are! Not one bit! However, we often need to be whilst we’re making ready our escape, to protect ourselves and our children.
Keep reminding yourself you deserve far better than him, that he’s betrayed you in the most filthy, foul way so you don’t owe him a thing! Except a divorce that goes in your favour … and maybe a hard kick in the bollix, hehehe!
Why do you want to be married to someone you have to babysit? Sending you Courage.
“I still can’t get past it.”
Time to tell him good bye.
Is anyone else hankering for a new podcast from CL? I feel like I was spoiled the last few weeks. As I was finalizing my plan, I kept re-listening. Hearing CL say, “Go with your gut!” and all that felt like having a cheerleader who knew her stuff rallying me. The podcast is so supportive for me. I don’t know anyone else near me who has been chumped and it is soooo good to hear the voice of reason from people who have been there.
This would be me. I’m sure my XHC* (ex husband the Cheater) was on dating sights at night instead of in bed with me. He had to lie and pretend to escape into the computer room until 3am..I did not confront that theft of my time. He mentally cheated so long…but then there was the high phone bills for sex talk with strangers. Then there were emotional affairs at work. Him talking about other woman…stollen time from me. And pick me dancing against the “perfect”partner out there. Not A woman,but a slew of them. How do you rate against a harem? My XHC said I mattered because he stayed with ME . I felt good about that. Really?.Devalued, compared? Abuse. It got worse. He treated me like I was a vending machine and wanted more and more of what I could not do anymore. I became exhausted with his demands and how HE DID NOT CARE ABOUT ME. But then comes love bombing so you believe that he loves you. BUT HE DOES NOT. He gets cake all day long anytime. OK there is a fine line between actual strange sex and sitting in front of a camera on the computer. How many times can an x bank robber watch heists until he wants in. My dear Queen of pick me. Your husband has an addiction. He is feeding it. He has you eating out of his hands. You are of use only. Wait if you want and feel Crappy like I did. Being used is demeaning and being seen as an OBJECT cannot be cured. .sorry. you will see. The hardest way possible if you wait. Your self esteem will rise when you save yourself. I did but it was almost too late.
I know this logically, I know I am of use to him, but I cannot put it together with all of the sweet parts of our life. He is a wonderful timid forest creature, and I fall for his tears and remorse every time. “It will never happen again, I don’t know why, I hated every minute of it.” Really? You’d keep going back to the same restaurant because “you don’t know why” and “you hated going there”??
No Queen. He is NOT a wonderful timid forest creature. He is a lying sack of putrid shit.
Please get help to stop this way of thinking, to gain perspective, to stop the pretzeling of yourself into knots.