Chump Lady Appears on the Savage Lovecast
Chump Lady appeared on the Dan Savage podcast Savage Lovecast this week and the reactions are coming in. Let’s discuss.
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So, yesterday the podcast I did with Dan Savage came out. There’s a short version available wherever you get your podcasts, or you can listen to the full-length version for free at Savage Lovecast with the promo code CHUMPLADY. That will give you a free month’s subscription to his podcast, which entitles you to listen to a bunch of other people who aren’t me. (Bonus!)
That bit of marketing out of the way, I’m curious what you think.
Who’s Dan Savage?
He’s a popular writer who has the longest running sex advice column, Savage Love. He’s not a fan of monogamy, but does believe in marriage over divorce. He gives frank and entertaining counsel and tries to strike a balance between sexual libertine go-for-it-ness and ethical consent.
I’ve taken him to task on this blog several times for “Toly-amory” and “monogam-ish” and wrote an initial reaction to our conversation with “Monogamy Isn’t Natural.” I wound up on Savage Lovecast because someone sent him my snark, and he reached out. Either to defang me or give me a larger platform. I’m not sure, but I was happy to chat. Because, hey, if you’re trying to change a narrative, you can’t just talk with the people who agree with you.
Chump Nation reacts
This should have come with 13,678 trigger warnings.
CN facebook member
We are probably not the people who wish to wax lyrical over a FW’s “exuberant acts of defiance” (to quote Esther Perel on infidelity). We are chumps — the people getting STD tested after presumed monogamy.
Why can’t you be Good, Giving and Game?
Sexual novelty is a flinchy subject after you’ve been unwittingly compared and contrasted with a Schmoopie or six. A chump writes to say her FW bludgeoned her with Dan Savage advice columns.
I have mixed feelings about this. Overall I hope you gave him hell (politely and with big words) and he considered your viewpoint. I had Dan Savage and his views shoved in my face on a weekly basis by my FW. “Good giving game! You’re being so close-minded about me wanting an open arrangement! You’re so judgmental that I enjoy choking prostitutes. Here’s what Dan says!” FYI Dan eventually publicly rescinded his viewpoint on sexual choking.
WTF?!
CHOKING?! This sent me down a rabbit hole. I didn’t find an endorsement or a condemnation of choking just this article where Dan interviewed a researcher, Dr. Debby Herbernick. This topic is a whole other column, but let me just say I reserve the right to kink shame CHOKING. Strangling women (thanks porn!) isn’t sexy and I don’t care if near-death experiences turn you on. Lynching isn’t sexy either. God the Mother. We have to point this out?!
And speaking of misogyny, FKA Gray Rock Novice writes:
OH MY FUCKING GOD.
His saying in the intro that you’re fiery and foul-mouthed means that he expects you, a woman, to be… different. Moving on!
At 31:00 he states that a man invited to discuss ways to pleasure his partner despite his small dick could be TRAUMATIZED by talking about… the fact that he has a small dick. Ok, we now have a benchmark for trauma.
Later on he describes a guy cheating on his wife on a business trip as not a big deal.
Still later he says, “Discreetly getting your needs met (i.e., cheating) is… a lesser betrayal than DIVORCING a person.” Yes, by all means, let’s keep women in these marriages.
He says that most cheaters who get found out don’t then threaten to kill the person they cheated on. Fascinating! I’d love to see that data. Oh, wait.
Moving on: “I would NEVER tell men that if their wives aren’t having sex with them then they’re probably cheating, because women HAVE LIBIDO CRASHES!” Yes, and these libido are the women’s fault, somehow, and have nothing to do with their husbands’ behavior.
“I think relationships are messy and people are complicated and fallible.” THE FUCKING SANCTIMONY OF THIS. Noting that these vague, boundary-less adjectives are trotted out to sanitize cheating and other kinds of abuse.
It’s almost as if there’s… something* going on here.
IT’S MISOGYNY
The Universal Bullshit Translator could have a field day, but there’s not enough Lebkuchen this morning.
I would just say, I’m ignorant of what questions Dan answered before me. Oh to have weighed in on the tiny dick dilemma. The poor sausage.
As for libido crashes, I pointed out — on the sexless marriage trope — that people in sexless marriages are usually chumps. Because their FWs are getting it elsewhere. It’s usually weaponized the other way, we’re so withholding, they had to cheat. To which I said, if you’re in a sexless marriage YOU ARE BOTH AWARE OF IT. Unlike cheating.
As for messy, fallible people, it’s similar to the argument that chumps expect perfection. A subtle blameshift. I’m not unethical — your standards are too high.
Thoughts, CN?
I’ll play.
I’m going to suggest talking points before listening to podcast and then see if they would have gone anywhere, though it may be like speaking facts to MAGA.
Monogamy is too (yawn) predictable to debate.
How about asking Podcaster to accept embezzlement by a financial partner? How about being lied to about extramarital sex and then sending another man’s child to college? How about the lack of child support enforcement and decline in lifestyle and safety? How about bringing a crazy bunny boiler to your family’s home?
I’m itching for a fight.
I so hear you on this line of attack:Imagine finding out literally a half century later that your wife had enjoyed a long term very sexual and highly secretive affair with a doctor AP whose male love child, for want of a better word, you raised, and not only.put through College, but paid for eight European vacations, a trip.to.Australia, flying lessons and sundry expenses all the while stintng your own needs and desires, as you went into debt and worked two jobs to.give the very best in life to this wonderful boy, young man, adult and.now middle aged.man you dearly love ( and whose children’s college educations you helped underwite).I would never change any part of this, except, if it were possible, I’d submit a very big retroactive bill to the SOB doctor..but then it’s moot. The scuba philanderer died over seventeen years ago, as Karma.stepped in
and an aggressive prostate cancer took him.in his late 60’s. How prosaic!
OMG what a crazy story. Except maybe it’s not as rare as it would seem. Idk
Ooooohhhhh I have been waiting for this! If anyone doesn’t want to listen to the calls re: sex questions, please note that Tracy’s section begins at 32 minutes into the Savage Lovecast version (the long one with the CHUMPLADY code). Back to it…
This was awesome CL. Great work.
I haven’t listened to the podcast yet, I will in my way into work. Hope I can stomach it. From your words above though, it sounds like it was a lot of conversation about the debased attempting to drag the based into the gutter. I’m familiar with the tactic. How many times past boyfriends & a husband tried to make me feel like I was a prude & uptight because I didn’t want to make a porno with them? Too many. I think dating apps should add a sex freak category & a vanilla sex category to attempt to separate the two. However, we’d likely still get the liars pretending they’re something they’re not. Or worse, they’ll want you to be vanilla while they’re freaks elsewhere. Sigh. Maybe lie detector tests should become normalized as dating thing. I sure would love to purchase one if it became reasonable $$ enough!!
These liers are SO GOOD, they would not feel a twinge as they lied straight faced and without even a pulse. Mine did not even blink. All I saw was a black reptilian stare as he brain melded me.
if you’re trying to change a narrative, you can’t just talk with the people who agree with you.
Tracy, thank you for this, and for speaking out.
I wound up on Savage Lovecast because someone sent him my snark, and he reached out.
And a big thank you to that someone who essentially pitched Tracy to Dan Savage as a guest.
Chumps who want this narrative heard can promote Tracy and LACGAL at every opportunity. You can write something as simple as
I think your audience would enjoy and be very interested in another perspective on infidelity from Tracy Shorn, author of the Amazon #1 divorce best-seller Lose a Cheater, Gain a Life, who’s been covering this on her successful blog at chump.lady.com
It’s even more effective if you add something personal, like, “Tracy makes me laugh coffee out my nose nearly every morning,” or how she turned your life around, or how she’s funny and hard-hitting at the same time.
Just keep in mind that anything your write can be used for publication or broadcast, so you might not want to share sensitive personal details.
The Esther Perels of the world are sought out because they have speaker’s bureaus and PR staff to pitch them and seek out opportunities.
Tracy has Tracy—and us.
Any time you hear, read or watch something on infidelity, please let the media sources and gatekeepers know there’s an articulate speaker with another view.
I listen to The Jordan Harbinger Show, and I wrote in earlier this year suggesting Tracy as a guest, as Jordan has had Esther Perel on before. I explained about Chump Lady/Nation, and how Tracy is not a fan of Perel’s and that a different pov on cheating would be valuable to his audience. Apparently no interest on Jordan’s part.
Brava to you! It may not happen right away, but you planted the seed. Hopefully they saved your message either mentally or in a physical note, and may come back to it eventually. Media will sometimes go to a proposed source a year or two later, especially if they hear that source or story proposed a couple of times. You got Tracy on the radar.
Haha! ‘Tracy made me laugh coffee out of my nose’ YES! And thank god for that! I swung between snot snivelling and laughing uproariously in the early months. Chump Lady, you saved me. I didn’t know how to go on, but you made sense of the cognitive dissonance and settled me right side up! ❤️
I haven’t heard the De Luxe version yet, just the snippet on my Apple podcast app.
So, according to Dan, the damage done to the person cheated on is proportional to the “size” of the transgression, (of course determined by the cheater).
You can murder someone with a paring knife or a machete. The size of the weapon is not the issue. When someone stabs you, the size of the knife does not matter. It’s that they violated you. What causes the pain and suffering and damage is that the person you were supposed to be able to trust deliberately and intentionally deceived and betrayed you.
It’s not the “quantity” Dan. It’s that it happened at all.
More wisdom from Velvet Hammer! Thank you.
Logic is not Dan’s friend. For example, a divorce is not even a betrayal, let alone a worse one than cheating. We all have the right to leave a relationship which isn’t working. As long as we do it ethically and kindly, there is no betrayal. It’s sad, but it’s not cruel.
Dan Savage struggles with linear thinking and logical coherence and spews word salad.
Calling a divorce “betrayal” is a classic DARVO blame shift 🙄
No doubt Dan dishes betrayal on the regular…
Yes he has written more than once about his trauma over his parents’ divorce. Yes it stinks to see your parents break up but I honestly think he sees it as them owing him. At some point as an adult you have to make your own life and family and accept that your family of origin wasn’t a fairy tale.
I was probably one of the horniest women on earth but I never considered cheating an option when my marriage went through dry spells. It’s a great way to improve your relationship to work on the barriers to intimacy.
I’m not a fan of the “monogamy isn’t natural” discourse. Dying in childbirth is natural. Kids dying of smallpox was natural. The internet isn’t natural. We make choices and promises and honor them. Or we change course in a way that is respectful to others.
Frankly, I wish my parents had divorced years before they did. I would have been spared the memory of the last Christmas they were together. My mom had her reasons not to leave, but…And my dad found her useful as a wife appliance. Also as a reason not to make a commitment to his various side pieces.
I met my first excellent therapist in 1985. I saw her for many years. She did workshops with the late great Dr Frank Pittman, who wrote eloquently on infidelity in his book Private Lies.
I think he best counters Dan Savage’s opinion that there are circumstances where infidelity is benign in the quote below:
“In lying, one is identifying the other as one’s opponent, even one’s enemy. In marriage intimacy is developed through confessions, explanations, and soul searchings. But of course intimacy involves equality, and people who are telling lies are not seeking any aspect of intimacy, especially equality. Liars are hoping for advantage, which will be produced by disorienting and distracting the other person. The liar is stepping outside the relationship. The lie may be a greater betrayal of the relationship than the misdeed being lied about. It takes very little misinformation to disorient and destroy a relationship. I often point out to people that if I gave them detailed instructions on how to go from Atlanta to New York City, and threw in only one left turn that was a lie, they would end up in Oklahoma.”
-Dr. Frank Pittman
Private Lies
(p. 59)
To me, the only way infidelity is permissible is if both partners know of it and consent to it in advance without undue pressure. Undue pressure such as “this or divorce.” If one partner doesn’t consent, and the other one isn’t happy with that, the unhappy partner needs to initiate a divorce.
Yes, I remember that quote, perhaps from you or another source. Missing the way to New York City with one wrong left turn is such a great picture and stuck with me.
The lying is truly part of the core of these things. You cannot have a meaningful, trusting relationship with someone who habitually creates big lies and expects you to believe them. Never.
Gottman’s book What Makes Love Last?: How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal was a factor in my refusal to reconcile. As I worked through that book (actually written for couples), I realized that I could never trust my then-husband again. The lies were just too thick. He had completely blown up the marriage and would never own up to that. So why should I give him any more chances when it would all end up in the same place again, if not worse?
But yes, don’t end up in Oklahoma if you are trying to end up in New York.
Dan thinks sometimes divorce isn’t an option. Ok, fine. But then, still, like in any relationship, the participants need to be honest about what they think, how they feel, what they’re doing, and who they’re doing it with, have agreements, and keep the agreements. Everything needs to be honest and out in the open.
BUT CHEATING IS ABOUT DECEPTION.
AND DECEPTION IS NEVER OKAY.
If the individuals in the relationship are being honest about what they think, how they feel, what they’re doing, and who they’re doing it with, and informed with the truth and agree to the terms, there is no cheating.
To qualify as cheating, there must be deception and lying (directly or by omission) defrauding, dishonesty, betrayal, secrets, making agreements and secretly breaking them, making secret unilateral decisions, and depriving someone of informed consent. None of that is ever ok, that’s where the damage comes from, from any degree of cheating, and why it’s never OK.
When you are being lied to and deceived, being denied informed consent, you are being held hostage. Used. Use is abuse.
I think what’s right and wrong becomes much more clear when you substitute the word DECEIVING for CHEATING.
(Can you rape someone a little bit? And if so, would raping someone a little bit be okay? I don’t think so.)
Question for Dan. If you are cheating, anywhere on the spectrum, you are lying. You are deceiving someone. You are denying them informed consent. You are betraying their trust. Their sense of safety nuked. And any violation in the realm of physical intimacy is a very very very big deal. You are therefore profoundly hurting someone.
Why would that ever be okay?
There is no question that harm is done, otherwise no one would lie about it and try to hide it. And the person cheated on gets to say what harm has been done, not the perpetrators.
I think I’d like to see a transcript of the debate but with only Tracy’s snark and all of Savage’s bs redacted with sloppy Sharpie scribbles because I’ve heard it all before. In fact, I can’t escape it because the only views presented in the mainstream media are either veiled or unveiled rapey ape patriarchal bs.
Personally I prefer shit to be served without the thin progressive glaze on top. If I want to hear neoliberal or libertarian (same diff) white dudes like Savage tell me about my libido or tell me what does and does not constitute “real” abuse, I can always visit Redpill hubs, watch Fox News, rewatch confirmation hearings for Clarence Thomas and Brett Kavenaugh on CSPAN or just stay tuned for the high hypocritical hilarity of Matt Gaetz’s upcoming Congressional
coddlinghearing.If I want an antidote for that tripe as well as the relief of seeing that “not all white dudes” are like the above, I’ll read things like this: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/pornography-is-what-the-end-of-the-world-looks-like/
“Fifty Shades of Grey,” the book and the movie, is a celebration of the sadism that dominates nearly every aspect of American culture and lies at the core of pornography and global capitalism. It glorifies our dehumanization of women. It champions a world devoid of compassion, empathy and love. It eroticizes hypermasculine power that carries out the abuse, degradation, humiliation and torture of women whose personalities have been removed, whose only desire is to debase themselves in the service of male lust. The film, like “American Sniper,” unquestioningly accepts a predatory world where the weak and the vulnerable are objects to exploit while the powerful are narcissistic and violent demigods. It blesses this capitalist hell as natural and good.
“Pornography,” Robert Jensen writes, “is what the end of the world looks like.”
We are blinded by self-destructive fantasy. An array of amusements and spectacles, including TV “reality” shows, huge sporting events, social media, porn (which earns at least twice what Hollywood movies generate), alluring luxury products, drugs, alcohol and magic Jesus, offers enticing exit doors from reality. We yearn to be rich, powerful and celebrities. And those we must trample to build our pathetic little empires are seen as deserving their fate. That nearly all of us will never attain these ambitions is emblematic of our collective self-delusion and the effectiveness of a culture awash in manipulation and lies.
Porn seeks to eroticize this sadism…
A new wave of feminists, who have betrayed the iconic work of radicals such as Andrea Dworkin, defends porn as a form of sexual liberation and self-empowerment. These “feminists,” grounded in Michel Foucault and Judith Butler, are stunted products of neoliberalism and postmodernism. Feminism, for them, is no longer about the liberation of women who are oppressed; it is defined by a handful of women who are successful, powerful and wealthy — or, as in the case of “Fifty Shades of Grey,” able to snag a rich and powerful man. A woman wrote the “Fifty Shades” book, as well as the screenplay. A woman directed the film. A woman studio head bought the movie. This collusion by women is part of the internalization of oppression and sexual violence that have their roots in porn. Dworkin understood. She wrote that “the new pornography is a vast graveyard
where the Left has gone to die. The Left cannot have its whores and its politics too.”
I met Gail Dines, one of the most important radicals in the country, in a small cafe in Boston on Tuesday. She is the author of “Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality” and a professor of sociology and women’s studies at Wheelock College. Dines, along with a handful of others including Jensen, fearlessly decry a culture that is as depraved as Caligula’s Rome.
“The porn industry has hijacked the sexuality of an entire culture and is laying waste to a whole generation of boys,” she warned. “And when you lay waste to a generation of boys, you lay waste to a generation of girls.”
“When you fight porn you fight global capitalism,” she said. “The venture capitalists, the banks, the credit card companies are all in this feeding chain. This is why you never see anti-porn stories. The media is implicated. It is financially in bed with these companies. Porn is part of this. Porn tells us we have nothing left as human beings — boundaries, integrity, desire, creativity and authenticity. Women are reduced to three orifices and two hands. Porn is woven into the corporate destruction of intimacy and connectedness, and this includes connectedness to the earth. If we were a society where we were whole, connected human beings in real communities, then we would not be able to look at porn. We would not be able to watch another human being tortured.”“If you are going to give a tiny percent of the world the vast majority of the goodies, you better make sure you have a good ideological system in place that legitimizes why everyone else is suffering economically,” she said. “This is what porn does. Porn tells you that material inequality between women and men is not the result of an economic system. It is biologically based. And women, being whores and bitches and only good for sex, don’t deserve full equality. Porn is the ideological mouthpiece that legitimizes our material system of inequality. Porn is to patriarchy what the media is to capitalism.”
Ah, that’s better. Brain nicely bleached and tenuous hope for the future of humanity renewed.
Perfect HOAC. Thank you for this!
I have never watched porn or downloaded it. This quote makes me never want to. Amazing 🙌🏼🌟
Well said. I’m also on an anti-porn crusade in a small way and told my son that if I ever found out that he was using it, I’d become rageful. He gets it.
It was a significant factor in the conflagration of my marriage after my ex made it his retirement hobby. I was naive and underestimated where that could go. Ick-ick-ick!
I think it was FW’s bad luck that, long before I ever knew he had a porn and misogyny problem, I was rearing the kids to be anti-porn along with being anti-any-form-of-abuse-of-power-or-exploitation. So, like with your son, when he tried to sway the kids to have sympathy for his position, it completely backfired.
I chalk it up to my Irish dad who– not only in spite any sexist influence of the Catholic church in Ireland but probably in direct rebellious reaction to this– always leaned to the underdog in any standoff, including women vs. patriarchal abuse. I quite innocently raised my children with these outlier views not realizing that I was girding them against future FW propaganda attempts.
Whatever the case, we were the hands that rocked the cradle and apparently we rocked those cradles well since our kids sided firmly with us. 😉
And these things have to be openly talked about. I did with our kids after their dad left, but I don’t remember my own parents even mentioning it. Of course, then porn was primarily Playboy, not the horrible, no-holds barred industry it is now.
Porn wasn’t as accessible back in the day but misogynistic and “toxic masculinity” messaging was nonstop. As I mentioned before, my dad used his art training to give presentations for the National Organization for Women on violent misogynist imagery and messaging in children’s scholastic material, arguing that brainwashing kids into destructive gender roles began early and was officially issued. The stuff he found in first and second grade readers was shocking.
My parents were clearly of the opinion that what you don’t know can hurt you and it’s better that kids get their critical thinking skills factory installed because, if parents don’t do this, the culture will aggressively fill in those gaps with all kind of corrupting, toxic crap. I think they were both pretty sensitive to the fact that kids really don’t want to hear gross and graphic things from mom and dad so encouraged me to get the information elsewhere like reading Susan Brownmiller’s ground-breaking Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape. Mostly both parents would humorously point out things around us– creepy sexist subtexts and content in advertising, films, interpersonal behavior– so that the shitty messages wouldn’t slip into my brain sideways.
It sometimes annoyed me when I just wanted to mindlessly absorb things. For instance, when I was a little kid, I liked Meryl Streep. I don’t remember what I saw her in (maybe Silkwood when it aired on TV?) but just liked her whole aura. One time the actress was doing an interview on the news and my mother sort of snickered and pointed out that Streep wasn’t being authentic but was putting on a fake breathy “widdle girl” persona. At first I was put out– bleah, parents always trying to foist their square tastes. But she added that Streep probably had to hide her intelligence and play the infantile dumb blond in order to maintain a career in that vicious industry. Then she mentioned how Judy Holiday, the ultimate “dumb blond,” had an IQ around 170 and was a concert pianist. So my mother wasn’t foisting her tastes but trying to make me understand that women sometimes have to be double agents to survive.
In retrospect, I think she was trying to warn me that, while wearing masks is sometimes necessary, the masks should never “wear us.” In other words, don’t buy the hype and internalize the bs even if you sometimes have to play along.
In any event, it seemed quite natural for me to continue the family tradition of “running comic commentary” on culture. It’s actually my kids’ favorite “mom thing.” They’ll bring me “cultural bait” to rip apart. Over time it’s become a sort of standup routine and I’m like their iconoclastic “Gimp.” Alas I think I’m being outdone by this Youtube “debunker” named Adam Somebody who does funny takedowns on various political, cultural and and corporate figures and their crappy schemes and propaganda. My sons in particular are always sending me links and I have to say the guy is hilarious and does a much more thorough job of it than Comedy Central since, unlike the latter, he’s not restrained from going after certain corporate/patriarchal sacred cows.
It’s misogyny. Not surprised that yet another man with a podcast has failed to grasp that.
Tracy, this is great! (I’ve listened to the version that’s accessible without subscribing to Dan Savage’s podcast). And hats off to both you and Savage for engaging in the conversation with curiosity and mutual listening, rather than, on either side, pushing an ideological “brand” as Esther Perel does.
I think it’s HUGE that you are now repeatedly getting invited into the mainstream, through vehicles like the New York Times and the Dan Savage podcast. As I’ve said before in these comments, your insights are so powerful, and the conversation on this site is so consciousness-raising, that now that this introduction to the mainstream is happening there will surely be a snowball effect. Accordingly, the version of infidelity promoted by Perel and the RIC will look less and less authoritative as it contends against a version that is both more truthful and more ethical. I just can’t see how the whole discourse about infidelity wouldn’t change over time because of this.
And it’s just amazing and so gratifying: Chump Lady–one person’s blog–is the wedge that is changing the playing field! It’s so fun, and so interesting, to watch this happening.
The code works, but it still requires entering a credit card which I didn’t feel comfortable giving. May see if it’s on another form later on.
As soon as you’re done listening, you can go right back to the account screen and turn off the auto-pay feature. Then, you’ll get an email saying that if you don’t pay within 30 days, your account will be terminated. No money has to exchange hands.
I used the code with Apple Pay successfully.
I’ve heard enough from the polyamorous. I’m not interested. I had two poly communities in two different cities helping my ex husband abuse me. I had to change my effing phone number over it more than once. They are pieces of shit. If you’re polyamorous and you’re all “hey, I’m not a piece of shit! I’m a nice of person!” Congrats, you’re a nice person surrounded by pieces of shit and you are having sex with them. The best thing you can be in a poly community is a victim because otherwise, you’re a predator.
One of the lies they gleefully told was how as a child I wanted to have sex with my uncles. That’s how gross I am. tee hee! I wondered, wouldn’t any sane, decent human being think it that was happening it would mean the child was being sexually abused? When my son overheard that one, that’s what he immediately thought and he came to me to tell me that it was not my fault someone touched me as a child and it did not make me a bad person. That was fun. I had to explain it was just a total lie and nothing had happened to me. But at least I know my son is a decent human and not like them.
Most of these people I never even effing met. Or I met them in passing once or twice. But they had great fun calling me an abuser because I asked my ex to use condoms. I’m so stupid though, in the polyamory world, having sex at least three times a week no matter how bad my health was is a dead bedroom! And you can’t catch a disease in a dead bedroom. The blood pouring out of my asshole must have been all in my head! Stupid me!
I hate them. They are not about consent AT ALL. I was so thoroughly and constantly shamed and beaten down for not wanting to fuck the entire world, all while I was dying of an autoimmune disease and misdiagnosed with schizophrenia. While they celebrated my ex role playing screwing children and hiding it from me and then acted all surprised pikachu when he turned out to be a pedophile and was arrested for it. Newsflash morons! People who roleplay screwing kids do that because they actually want to screw kids! That’s why it turns them on!
Disgusting human beings. Just disgusting. And these include people who are loud and vocal and involved in the polyamory community in two different cities, the one we lived in and my ex’s hometown. Some of them have podcasts and participate in radio shows. It’s just a method to abuse people. They have ZERO ethics when it comes to getting whatever they want. They just pretend to have ethics so that people will tolerate them. In real life, they do whatever they want and they don’t give a sh*t who they hurt. They say the right things and then act like monsters, that’s why my ex did so well in that community. And still does, because plenty of them are cool with pedophilia too. He still gets invites. Why would they kink shame screwing children?! That would be abusive to the pedophile! Disgusting.
Man here. I just wanted to respond to this part: “I think relationships are messy and people are complicated and fallible….IT’S MISOGYNY”
As the chump in a relationship, I have to say I started hearing this phrase from my cheating wife a few months before I found out about her affair. As she was giving other couples advice, she would trot this out. She was also covering for a (male) friend of hers who was having his own affair, and she would talk about how she didn’t judge because “relationships were complicated”.
My point is, this isn’t limited to misogyny. This is part of the fuckwit language and probably stems from narcissistic justification, which transcends gender.
“Messy and complicated” always comes up as rationalization for something they don’t want to admit doing.
My healthy and functional relationship is, on an average day, pretty calm and easy going. It gets tricky balancing family, friends, work, finances, etc, but on your average Tuesday we wake up, make coffee, watch the news, and have a cuddle. We don’t always agree, and have our miscommunications, but on the whole it’s good.
The narrative that all relationships are ‘work’ or are ‘messy and complicated’ kept me stuck endlessly working and mired in unhealthy relationships I never should have accepted. It kept me caught in unhappy situations with incompatible people because I thought love was supposed to be hard.
Hard things happen, dirty diapers, not enough sleep, illnesses, aging parents, work, figuring out who’s family to see on the holidays etc. But our daily relationship? On the whole it is a refuge from the hard.
I agree. It’s not inherently misogynistic, just a lame excuse people use for their abusive behavior.
Relationships and people may be complicated, but what’s right and wrong is pretty simple. Deception is wrong, by any means, and I find the “people and relationships are complicated” defense of infidelity to be complete horseshit, ignorant, and extremely exasperating.
I’ve only ever heard this ridiculous excuse in discussions about infidelity.
IMHO.
❤️
No one needs to hide and lie about acceptable behavior. If you need to lie about it, you shouldn’t be doing it.
Very simple.
Yeah, I agree. This is language that psychopaths use to rationalize their abuse of others. And there are plenty of them out there, both male and female.
Hi, moroncommunicator! I 100% agree with you that female FWs will accuse male chumps of misogyny when they refuse to tolerate said FWs’ abuse.
In my comments above, I simply meant that Dan Savage’s particular ethos is contempt for women.
Definite trigger. Right after I was blindsided and informed about his new coworkersoulmate “Can’t you be happy for me?” he started spouting Savage (literally savage) quotes (and Perel) about non monogamy, monogamish, and polyamory. Told me I was standing on a moral high ground (married 30 years) and I was inflexible, that everyone but me thought this way, and things weren’t black and white. I said that my idea of monogamy and the vows he took and the promises he made 30 yrs ago WERE black and white but he had free will and could do whatever he wanted, just don’t include me. Filed for divorce immediately, went no contact. I don’t understand how someone could seem to so radically change, or maybe it’s who he always was, but after a lot of therapy, I stopped trying to figure it out. It is what it is. He’s now referred to as the ghost or the UNdead as he abandoned us all.
PS At the time, he went to a therapist who diagnosed him as narcissist which threw him into a complete rage since his purpose in going there was to figure out how to manipulate/convince ME into going along with his new ideas about marriage and the doc would NOT comply. What he actually said was that my now ex needed a complete inpatient evaluation. Total RAGE. Glad I don’t have to deal with that now but Savage is a trigger.
Mine changed the terms, also a marriage of several decades. When he started talking about bringing another woman into the bedroom, spending a fortune on “things,” and then hinted at wanting an open marriage, I started pulling back emotionally. I hardly knew what to say.
Ultimately, I said we needed to separate again, and he took off to the beach to live as he wanted. Then he gaslighted and guilted me and finally kicked off the divorce. Yes, the only way that mess could end.
I’m sorry you had to endure that crap too. My brother’s a therapist and at the time he asked my ex “do you have any idea who you married?” like everyone knows how much I valued our vows and I’d NEVER in a million years accept any other arrangement other than total monogamy. I still shake my head about all of that. I hope you’re on a healing path! This is the time for hoovers…
Yes, they want to take us down with them so they don’t feel as guilty and can justify themselves. Thankfully, my divorce was final just before the pandemic, and it’s been a few years since we heard from him.
I hear they always pop back up at some point. My ex still sometimes stalks me so I avoid certain places — and he doesn’t even live around here, hes about 400 miles away. He’s in my spam folder every now and again, but I will never speak to him again, none of us will. He’s dead to us.
Could be, but it’s unlikely from what a therapist friend of mine said who is familiar with my ex’s mental health issues. We can hope!
Hi, all! I have a few more thoughts, partly inspired by the work of Dr. Wednesday Martin:
First, TOLYAMORY is just a different term for COERCION.
Second, Dan Savage maintains that women should let their husbands cheat because women’s low libidos = BIOLOGY. Um lol no… Women, in the aggregate, get bored with monogamy first, along with shouldering more household labor and living in a patriarchy, and down goes their desire for their husbands… but due to retrograde cultural stereotypes touted by misogynists like Dan Savage, women get stereotyped as “sexless” and the “reason” men cheat on them.
Third, regarding the TRAUMA of talking to a guy about his small dick: Dan’s podcast has two versions, the MICRO and the MAGNUM. I’m not here to shame people with small dicks, but it seems that Dan Savage is so fixated on dick size that he doesn’t have room in his brain for much else.
ITA FKA.
There is no “libido crash” in women. Total blame shifting nonsense.
It is the lack of attraction to baby men who won’t step up and fucking adult.
A man who is secure and who can actually “do” intimacy is a turn on forever.
To his credit, Dan did acknowledge the domestic labor imbalance as a contributing factor to “libido crash” in women, but he didn’t make the next logical point that people whose female partners no longer want to have sex with them might examine the labor balance in their household before they resort to cheating.
Great job. Savage is no pushover and he’s been doing this for years. Hell, I remember reading his columns in the free weekly paper (remember those?) on the L going to school in the middle 90s. And his syndicated radio stuff along with Dr. Drew and those knuckleheads. He’s got the lingo and all the rhetorical tricks but you stood up to all of it. Thanks for the code. I would have paid the eight buck for that. I hope you do go back because I think his audience needs to hear more from you. I also kind of hope you don’t because.. yuck. Especially the last parts: “tolyamory” and the question from the caller.
What this concept of tolyamory boils down to me is the idea that people who love and trust their partners are naive, therefore stupid, therefore weak, therefore inferior, therefore they deserve to be hurt. I, the exceptional, sophisticated, superior being am entitled to abuse them. In what other context is it ethical for the strong to take advantage of the weak? Is he as sympathetic toward predatory mortgage lenders, drug pushers, pimps and cock-fighters?
Then with the caller he just comes right out and says I withold good advice from my friends because I love their misery. Human suffering is my meat and drink.
If you go back on his show I want you to aks him if he realizes he’s a nihilist.
Great points.
The “people are fallible and make mistakes” argument is the most common one I see to excuse cheating, universally used by people who aren’t intelligent enough to have thought it through or are unwilling to think it through. You could use that excuse for anything that causes harm to others, but if you did, people would be outraged. For example; “So he downloaded kiddy porn. People are fallible and make mistakes.”
“So she left her kids alone in the house and went out drinking. People are fallible and make mistakes.”
We don’t expect perfection, Dan. We expect an appropriate level of concern for our well-being as fellow human beings as well as supposed loved ones. That is the bare minimum. Anything that falls below that standard is not a mistake. It’s not being a fallible human. It is abuse.
Wow, I love how they describe you as the ‘fiery, foul-mouthed, anti-cheating avenger’. Geez! How DARE you step out of your lane witch-woman! I would say, the key point is, if you want to get hand jobs on business trips, don’t get married. It’s not the 20th century anymore. You don’t get to help yourself to all of the social breaks of ‘married’ status (tax breaks, social care, economic benefit, status and connection, cheaper insurance, portraying yourself as social beige, etc.) whilst completely betraying the agreement of fidelity. OWN your choices – I don’t care what they are unless they involve abusing vulnerable humans and are non-consensual. When my husband cheated it was against what we promised, it was without my knowledge or consent – he made a unilateral decision, without my knowledge and is still lying about it 1 year later – financially abusing me, stealing money from our joint marriage funds, etc. He’s a 63 year old man ffs. I took tests for Syphilis, Gonorrhea, HIV and Chlamydia after 37 years of supposed monogamy (which we both CHOSE). I have no judgement about who you do, what you want as long as it isn’t against another’s consent. And CHEATING is denying consent. If I don’t know, I can’t consent. That’s it. Get it? And I snoozed thru most of the mattress/sex toy/fuckfest advertising! Go straight to 32 mins…
“Fiery, foul-mouthed, anti-cheating avenger” should be embroidered on Tracy’s super-hero cape
And another thing(!), he points out more than once that your experience was so “extreme” because your ex caused you to waste your money and threatened you, then he comes up with these hypotheticals about people “trapped” in “sexless” marriages who can’t leave because of money and children with “special needs” and their spouses are prone to violence. As if the more typical cheater is a poverty-stricken single mom with a nursery full of Jerry’s Kids who hasn’t been laid in ten years and whose husband would literally actually kill her if she ever left or fucked someone else. And, by the way, if you did encounter that person your advice would be to go have an affair just keep it on the down low.
Also, if you know your male friend’s wife is cheating on him you should never tell him because “men are prone to violence.”
I flat out do not believe people who claim they cheat because they’re being abused at home. They are liars. My mother was abused by my father. Cheating would have been a death sentence for her if she had been caught and probably a death sentence for us as well. Women and men who are terrified of their partner beating them and killing them do not go out hunting for dick and pussy. That would be a completely moronic thing to do and they know damn well it could get them and their children murdered.
People who claim that are just disgusting liars pretending to be victims.
I feel a lot of empathy for those trapped in abusive relationships and marriages. But from what I have seen, the victims usually use most of their energy just to get through the day. Do victims ever cheat? I’m sure some do, but mostly I’ve seen violent and/or emotionally manipulative abusters who are paranoid that their partners are cheating and isolate them, who are usually cheating themselves.
Many victims are fawning, on the roller coaster trying to stabilize and appease the abuser, or in the stages of plotting to leave. Even if it is the case of an abuse victim cheating, the answer isn’t to stay, it’s to end the relationship and leave as safely as possible.
Yes. Double lives take time and money. But then I listen to the rest of his show, and some others, and at least half the callers and most of the topics he gets into my first reaction is “who has time for that?” Do any of these people have jobs? Chores? Any responsibilities or interests besides getting off? “Yeah, so I my boyfriend is mad because I went to my other boyfriend’s wife’s girlfriend’s place in the Hampton’s for Thanksgiving and an orgy broke out and I accidentally deleted the video before sending it to him which is against the rules we set for what we’re supposed to do in case of spontaneous group sex on holidays in November in the Eastern time zone. He considers it cheating. I blame the Patriarchy.” They should call it Lifestyles of the Rich and Sweaty.
Yes, honestly I’ve always picked up whiffs of ‘upper class ennui’ from Dan Savage’s activism and perspectives on relationships. A sense of entitlement to be endlessly sexually entertained and engaged.
I’ve had several times in my life when sexual fulfillment was not even high on the priority list compared to “pay bills”, “heal from injury”, “Find safe apartment”, “Care for my Mother fighting cancer.” My Partner was right in the thick of it with me, also too tired. We pick back up when things improved.
To me that’s life and marriage.
I love good debates, but I don’t like Savage. You were brave to spar with him. We knew you could do it!
You know, I could not even listen as I got triggered just reading the intro. I don’t know how Tracy does this day in and day out. Mr CL,how does he stand ir either…And Tracy’s pets, how do they???..it’s like feeding time at the zoo in the Oragatang exhibit. It stinks so bad I could not even walk through. I am so filled with righteous rage at what i allowed and all the manipulating I now recognize that I did not see before . I just can’t stand it! I hope I get better ..one year post Divorce, 2 years post D day.
Orangutan, or MONKEY exhibit..
Velvet Hammer wrote above: “So, according to Dan, the damage done to the person cheated on is proportional to the “size” of the transgression, (of course determined by the cheater).”
And that size of the transgression is often based on trickle truth of what the chump has already found out and proven.
The cheater will diminish the cheating with what they (supposedly) didn’t do, as if that diminishes what they did, i.e., “I didn’t sleep with her in our bed.”
When the chump finds out that cheater did exactly that, cheaters move the bar, i.e. “I didn’t sleep with her when the kids were here.”
An if the chump can prove that they did, it’s, “Well, I didn’t sleep with her when the kids were awake.”
Also, the initial transgression can be ultimately less harmful then the reality warping lies that surround it.
It’s not just the physical act its self, it’s the lies. It’s you sensing something is off but being falsely reassured otherwise. It’s the general sense of unease when you realize that the story they told about their day doesn’t add up, but you love and trust them. It’s wondering if the change in their behavior is your fault, so you try harder.
It’s after finding out, realizing that you were denied the truth about your own life, that even if it was just a mild one time thing, once they’ve lied about it, it means they accepted every gesture, every gift, every intimacy, you gave under false pretenses.
As opposed to, a one time physical action in a bar that they tell you immediately about, take accountability for, and you are allowed to decide afterwards if you want to continue to invest in the relationship knowing what had occurred.
Yes: IT’S THE LIES.
Should I listen? I don’t know if I can stand the stupid
I didn’t listen to the long version – Savage is too “slippery” for me.
I have to believe that the additional exposure of the Chump Lady blog/narrative is going to reach victims of infidelity in lifesaving ways.
Yes, I stopped with the short version too but cheered for our team.
Hopefully, some folks will listen and began to question their situations. I don’t personally see how the type of messy sexuality that Savage advocates is truly sustainable and good for people, but he wouldn’t be broadcasting if he didn’t have listeners.
Also, Savage presents a false dichotomy by implying that the only options available with mismatched sex drives are cheating and divorce. You can learn to compromise. The situation may not end up being ideal, but it can be satisfactory if you’re not so self involved that you think you deserve pleasure whenever the urge strikes you and that you are entitled to it regardless of the impact on your partner. That’s exactly the kind of guy Savage is. His presumptions and excuses are all coming from an attitude of sexual entitlement. I feel sorry for his partner. Every time I’ve seen him on a talk show he’s made an asshole of himself. He tries to dominate the conversation. He uses shock value to get attention. Using shock value is his entire business model, actually. He has been accused of writing some of the letters to his own advice column in order to make them as freaky as possible. It’s how he got his start.
It’s a testament to how well spoken CL is that he actually shut up long enough for her to make her points.
Yep, no one gets everything they want out of marriage. My ex never remembered by birthday, never valentines day, no flowers or small gifts for no reason. Though I was a descent house keeper, I was never a spit shiner; and he bitched about that. I was working full time taking college classes and doing his volunteer bidding, and he never once raised a hand to help me. I spackled all that up in a pretty little box and never once though oh, he wasn’t romantic enough and he let termites eat up our house while my son and I were telling him it is termites. He refused to get an inspection, until I had finally had enough and called one. The inspector ripped the support wall apart and showed him the colony of larvae eating their way across our house. I never once thought I am so pissed so I MUST FUCK STRANGE. I did think to myself, why would he not care about our biggest investment. Of course now I know that he intended to stick me with the house and walk away. Timing is everything and his timing was off.
I used to listen to Mr. Monogamish’s podcast but stopped about seven(?) years ago. I left a message on his voicemail after he justified a man’s cheating on (ahem ABUSING) his wife because of her alcoholism. I asked to him entertain the notion that maybe the wife was drinking heavily because of the way her husband was treating her, that if she was an alcoholic pre cheating on his part that he had the option to divorce her WITHOUT ABUSING HER ! Of course, my voicemail wasn’t broadcast the following week.
Congrats on slowly chipping away at this societal glacier Tracy !
Dan Savage’s defense of cheating goes way back. I read one of his books, the one where he describes meeting his future husband. At the time, there was a power difference; Dan Savage was older, had more money, and was already semi-famous. Shortly after they fell in love, this boyfriend informed Dan that cheating was a deal breaker for him, and that he would dump Dan if Dan ever cheated on him. This offended Dan, and Dan twisted it around to tell the boyfriend that having such a deal breaker was a sign that boyfriend’s love was not serious enough because love should be unconditional. And that the boyfriend’s saying divorce would be a consequence of cheating was a deal breaker for HIM (Dan) and that to continue to be with him, boyfriend needed to back down and be willing to accept some cheating. So that’s the back story.