Did You Forgive a Cheater?
Forgive a cheater or be DOOMED to bitterness! Back when I started this blog, or had an article appear on Huffington Post, invariably those forgiveness trolls would show up.
That’s what I named the hobgoblins who would insist — whatever the horror related — that the victim immediately forgive the perpetrator. Like, you’re doing being chumped all wrong. Let go of the anger! Forgive! Before the poor sap had even properly dealt with the offense.
I’ve written a lot about the forgiveness dilemma here. My conclusion is that it’s none of anyone’s goddamn business.
You can move on just fine without forgiveness.
To me, forgiveness is acceptance. It’s meh. The rejection of revenge. The offender no longer has the power to hurt me, I’m indifferent to the bullshit. I’ve given up on karmic reckonings, I’ve got my own life to live. Which I control. Comeuppance, not so much.
It took me years to achieve acceptance. And it’s not been without set backs. I’m sure the forgiveness trolls would not recognize meh as forgiveness because I’m not all warm and fuzzy about being defrauded.
I was thinking of this as a Friday question today, because Fooled Twice, whose letter I answered yesterday, commented that her therapist told her she had to forgive her cheater. This is the person who tried to be Friends For the Children and her ex used her.
A forgiveness imperative is offensive if you recognize abuse for abuse.
Obviously that therapist’s bullshit was not helping matters. If you went to a shrink because someone pistol whipped your face, it would be offensive if that shrink said, “The first thing you need to do is forgive your mugger!”
No, the first thing you need to do is learn how to walk down the street again without a trauma response.
Gah. Forgiveness. So your Friday Challenge is to tell me what forgiveness of a cheater looks like to you, and if you recommend it, or can do without. TGIF!
When people tell me to forgive, it’s usually as a result of some snarky joke I’ve made about my trauma. If I have time, and feel like talking my response is “What does that look in this situation?” I’ve never gotten a good answer.
If I’m not feeling up to a conversation, my response is “What makes you think I haven’t?” And exit scene.
The one thing I do hold on to as a marker of forgiveness is something I heard way back at the start of this– Forgiveness is letting go of the hope of a better past.
Also a big fan of “I didn’t punch them. Isn’t that forgiveness enough?”
Even my preacher didn’t tell me to forgive. He told me I needed to get angry.
I think he was one of the few folks who though likely had never been cheated on, he knew how he would feel if he found out it happened to him. He also knew and understood what the bible had to say about adultery and that the sin is on the sinner not the victim.
“I didn’t punch them. Isn’t that forgiveness enough?”
This works for me too! Honestly sometimes I think he’s only alive because he still pays me maintenance.
Forgiveness is complicated. I absolutely forgive myself! I didn’t know he was capable of such deception or that he would even want to have a whole separate life! I didn’t even think he was that interested in sex. Thinking that he would have a whole other double life? Impossible!
He has never admitted having an affair (or anything related to the affair), so what’s to forgive? He has never apologized for hurting me or his children so what is there to forgive? It is never going to happen.
I believe in trying to let go of the past and not even thinking about forgiving him.
The anger is a whole other story. I have contorted myself trying to not be angry. If willing the anger away was possible, it would have happened years ago! But it isn’t. I have been in therapy for years and am even now starting with a new therapist just to get rid of the anger. It is really hard.
He and the whore stole the truth of my past and what I thought my future would be. I will always wonder what was real and what wasn’t. I know that my memories are real but I think about all the times I couldn’t reach him and panicked because I didn’t know where he was (pre-cell phone). All the times I was with both of them and they knew something I didn’t? All the photos of the 3 of us with my kids? You cannot just will those thoughts out of your head. And I will never have the financial security that they have. I got back some money but not nearly enough as I should have – and I was one of the lucky ones that had an amazing settlement!
I have worked very hard to build a full life with lots of new traditions, lots of great friends and unconditional love from my children. I count all my blessing everyday. The stories of others here are real and I know my life is a blessing. But the anger? I don’t see a way past it.
My entire being feels as if they get a pass if I let go of my anger. The unfairness of it is HUGE. But I am working on it. The day I figure it out – how to lose the anger or forgive or whatever anyone wants to call it – will be the day I pitch my “tell me how you’re mighty” story!!! 💪
My anger slowly dissipated when I finally STOPPED trying to fight it.
Just let yourself feel it. Go somewhere alone and SCREAM. Go to a rage room and smash things. Burn something. Punch a pillow. Take a kickboxing class. It doesn’t matter. Let it out.
You’re not a terrible person for being angry. You have every right to be angry at what happened. By trying to get rid of the anger without processing it, you are making it last longer.
I too thought I’d always be angry. But it did go away, once I accepted that it was okay to feel those feelings. I think as women especially, we are told to not feel anger. So feel it.
Anger is also an expression of grief, so perhaps you have not fully mourned the loss of the life you were supposed to have, the loss of your (for lack of a better word) innocence. Betrayal shatters your whole world view. As you said, you don’t know what was real.
Also remember – your anger isn’t affecting HIM in the slightest. He already feels like he got the free pass. If he didn’t care about betraying you, he won’t care how you feel about that. In fact, he might even enjoy the fact that you’re pissed off, because it means he still matters to you in some way. For a narcissistic person, there’s no such thing as bad attention. It’s when they DON’T affect you that drives them crazy.
One of the things I told myself was that I had already given my ex enough of my life an energy, and he didn’t deserve ONE MORE SECOND of my time or attention. Because my life was worth so much more than him.
I hope you continue to find healing. <3
Anger is valuable — it’s what propels you to leave the cheater and gain a life. If you are still angry, perhaps there is some piece of work you still have to do. I’m not talking about forgiveness — that’s a religious construct and I am certainly no expert on religion. But maybe there is still something hanging on that you need to finish. I’m not sure what that would be, or even if there is something, but maybe if you think about it, you’ll figure it out. Or you can tell me I’m full of shit. I might be.
Your words are valuable and I would never tell you you’re full of shit! 😂
I believe I have done all the work I need to but Im sure that will be part of the new therapy. Fingers crossed.
Exactly this.
Just coming up on 9 years free, and I’m still having epiphanies about things he said/did there were complete BS. And I think about how faithfully, trustingly, I believed his every word. And its not just about the lies he told in his quests for strange. I just had a realization this week that he had told me a HUGE lie about an attempted abduction when he was with the kid when he was very small. It was all to make himself feel special and to make me feel what?? I had NO CONCEPT the lengths he would go to to make himself feel big, keep me in the dark, and continue this strange mind game.
He had NEVER once admitted to all the lies. The affair(s). The online sex. The financial abuse. Ect., ect. So, no, he doesn’t deserve my ‘forgiveness’. And he’ll never get it for as long as he shows no remorse or repentance.
But I did forgive myself for falling for his machinations, and for not getting myself and the kid out sooner. And that I think, was / is infinitely more difficult.
Skunk I have these catch me if you can epiphanies aswell. I don’t know if all FWs inherently fabricate stories their whole existence, but I feel like mine probably did (a covert wackjob). I can spot people like that a mile away now, but before D Day for some reason I couldn’t see it. Probably the projection thing of assuming the general population is basically normal and honest unless proven otherwise, which of course with benefit of hindsight was not a good approach.
In fact I look back now at FWs demeanour the entire time I knew him and interpret it as someone on the brink of being exposed, rather than a harmless bumbling duffer.
“My entire being feels as if they get a pass if I let go of my anger.”
YES!! THIS ^^^^^^!!
You do not need to see them suffer excruciating torture. That is enough.
But you do not need to pardon them for what they did. Ever. EVER.
Enough of this B.S. of working on not being angry. You have every right to OWN your anger. Make it yours. Cherish it. It is what keeps you from falling into despair.
One day, perhaps, you will discover that your anger has evolved into something else. But there is no need to drive yourself nuts trying to eliminate it.
Maybe you should consider finding a therapist (or someone who could be on Team Rebecca) who will give you permission to be angry. Who will CELEBRATE your COURAGE in being angry. Who will join you in some hearty aerobic bitching.
Ex will never ask for my forgiveness. In his mind he does nothing wrong.
To me, forgiving ex would be releasing him from accountability for the horrendous things he’s done.
I’m quite comfortable knowing I’ll never forgive this vile human being who is out to destroy me.
I mean no offense Little Wing but we are all at different steps in our journey.
The anger kept me going through the divorce and setting boundaries. My friends and family are all solidly in my camp and there is no purpose to my anger anymore.
I alone am choosing to find a way to let go of the anger. This is no one else choice. It has been many, many years since DDay and the completion of the divorce. I think it’s time.
There will never be forgiveness or even acknowledgment of the ex beyond what I would extend to a stranger and only in social setting where it makes it more comfortable for ME. I will never be in the APs presence.
I am the first person to tell a chump to find their anger to fight for what they deserve but for ME there has come a time to figure out how to let that anger go. On my quest to figure out HOW.
Blessings on your journey!
Should have added that I wonder if it would be easier if I didn’t have to see him? While it’s only weddings or grandchild events, it is still something. I believe that never having to see him again would be easier.
Yes, it would. I agree with that. But that is one reason why honoring your anger is important. Use the energy of your anger to create a shield of energy that not only protects you, it also bounces any of their energy right back at them.
Or think of your anger as your Gorgon’s head. Then imagine that you hold it up, putting the head in between you and the MF-ing FW, so that if they look at you, they get turned into stone. BTW, Athena (AKA Minerva), who is the goddess of wisdom AND of warriors, had the head of Medusa put into her shield. (They can do stuff like that.) (So can you.)
Forgiveness is about and for the forgiver NOT the abuser. It is extremely personal, takes time and looks different for every person. It is no one’s business when, how, or if you forgive anyone for anything. I personally want to get there for my own peace of mind. As you said it is my meh. But I will get there in my own time and, right now, when I get there, I doubt I will communicate that forgiveness to anyone other than myself.
I initially forgave the “sex addict”. This was before Chump lady and I stayed. I don’t forgive anything after because there is no real remorse.
The more important thing, was forgiving myself. I had a lot of guilt and shame over my poor choices. I have let that go. It is not my shame to carry.
Forgiving myself has been one of the hardest things of this whole mess.
It bothers me how I was pestered into forgiving my ex by my Christian church-going friend. She thought it was terrible if I didn’t forgive & said it would make me feel better. Well, it did not. All I felt was like I was chumped all over again! My ex didn’t even respond to my “forgiveness email”. I’m sure he was amused or annoyed by it anyhow because he didn’t think he did anything wrong but pursue the boffing (ahem love) I wasn’t giving him enough of, according to him. I’m sure it’s been confusing for him though. Although, I wrote that I forgave him, I regretted it immediately & now my actions (no contact & avoidance say otherwise) ….and no I don’t even nod or say hello as someone even here at CL suggested we do at weddings etc, as a minimum, and I ask why should we even do that?? It just feels like more pressure put on the chump to “be the bigger person” instead of an act of simply staying far far away from a toxic person.
When I see either ot my XFH I get triggered and I remember that my body keeps score! I have zero control over my gut or visceral responses. So for their sake and mine( who knows what I’ll do or say, I keep my distance. I recall my sister who was abandoned by her husband when she was pregnant, while he moved on with the Pastors wife..She met OW and forgave her to her face. And her cheater husband. Wanting to see if I could forgive like this, I went up to my former brother in law at the wedding of his daughter. We sat off to the side and do you know what he said?.He said he should have never married my sister and he should have instead, married me!!!!!!! Whaaaaaaaaat the@%%^#÷❗️❗️. OK so no forgiveness because he was.still a creep.20 years later!!.But letting go to God who is the ultimate judge. Yes! He will take care of justice.
When we do nice things for bad people, they think of us as chumps, they think of us as weak, pathetic people because that is how THEY view the kind actions of others. Our thoughtfulness or kindness is seen as weak behaviors that mark us as PREY for them. They do not appreciate it or appreciate us….instead they think even less of us and it encourages them to do even more bad things.
My ex was a part-time preacher and demanded that I forgive him multiple times, but no one can demand that. What he wanted was for me to overlook his bad behavior and pretend like it never happened.
Ultimately, I decided not to overlook it. The divorce settlement was fair and legal. I maintained my dignity and didn’t resort to the ugliness he chose during the separation, divorce, and closeout.
I realized not long ago that the remaining naysayers at church all have major issues themselves, so I just change the subject. There’s an older lady there who has been praying for six years that my ex comes back. That bird flew away long ago! I just thank her for praying and ask about her granddaughter, a much more pleasant subject.
Clearly, she’s bonkers! Why would she pray for your ex to come back & not something more worthwhile, like world peace or ending child hunger?!
LOL. Yes, bonkers. Her family helped us in some amazing ways including coordinating the first time we moved when I truly unable to figure out how to get that done. So, I just smile and change the subject. She’s not mean, she’s just not all there.
Forgiveness is NOT the same thing as “Pardon”. To forgive means to let go of the need for revenge, or the need to see them suffer. But to pardon is “to restore to previous status”. “Forgiving” is your gift to yourself. “Pardoning” them is your gift to them. You do not have to pardon anybody. It terms of Jungian Archetypes, it is the Mother (or Father) that forgives. But it is the Queen (or King) that pardons.
LW, Very interesting to read the difference. My divorce isn’t final yet so things are still icky at times. What I find is, I am still really angry when I think about what happened. Usually it isn’t the cheating exactly that pisses me off. But more the stuff around it. The sad-sausaging he does when it was all his choices that got us here. Or the blame-shifting, how I made him cheat. Or sure, more direct cheating related stuff like knowing that he must have been texting her frequently when I was 5 feet away. Or that he wrote these gooey messages on social media about me for anniversaries for all the world to see, but was actively involved with her at the time and I had no idea. I do get pissed if I think about those details and lies.
But I truly have no desire for revenge, at all. He currently is suffering in many mundane ways and I don’t revel in that. I don’t know if that is a sign of healing for me, or if it is just me still being intimidated and controlled by him.
See, he is still really mean to me. Not always, sometimes to see us, you’d think we could move forward in a very healthly but separate place. We do have children so there is that. He will be jovial and kind one day, and spout rage the next. It’s a 60/40 split with the nice side winning.
He is a “I made one mistake” variety of FW. Affair lasted over 5 years. That’s one long “mistake” and he is mad that I am done. So, I think maybe I HAVE forgiven him to a large extent, I get mad, but I don’t wish him ill. But no, I absolutely will not pardon or “restore to previous status”. Previous status was him living with me and being mentally/emotionally and verbally abusive. I am never restoring that.
“To forgive means to let go of the need for revenge, or the need to see them suffer. ”
Agreed.
Thanks for explaining the difference. I think my friend meant pardoning then instead of forgiving. I’m sure my ex would equate my forgiving him as pardoning him though. And I don’t mind at all if he suffers some. He needs a karmic comeuppance truly just to be a better human.
Orlando, you did not douse his cheating dick with battery acid. That PROVES you are the better person.
That’s right I did not lol. I wanted to though, but I figured my life would likely be better outside of jail cells than inside them…and it did, much better!
Forgive myself for giving the Dickhead way too many years of my life? Yes! Forgive him when he doesn’t even see or acknowledge the pain he caused me or other people? No! I wish him no harm or ill will, maybe after 5 years, I’m finally at meh.
I forgave mine, but forgiveness doesn’t look like what most people think it should. It means that I erased the debt officially from my books and won’t seek to recoup the loss. Forgiveness is quantifiable and we aren’t told to forget, no matter how old and worn out the saying is. I will never forget what he did and I am under no obligation to allow him to hurt me again. I am under no obligation to be friends with him again, or even to be friendly again. When I am friendly toward him it’s because I’m a genuinely friendly person. I rock. But also noblesse oblige. He knows he’s not entitled to my friendliness.
I am also within my moral and ethical rights to be vigilant against him hurting our children again. He broke their hearts, he destroyed their childhoods, he has not asked forgiveness for that.
Hobgoblins are severely misguided. I would be more impressed if they used their time and energy to reinstitute “shunning”. Where are these hobgoblins when cheaters are cheating? Where are their outspoken opinions when their friend/child/brother is out their sticking it in another man’s wife? Nah, it’s easier and quicker to re-victimize the Chump.
I forgave mine, I truly did. On Judgement Day, God will not hold him accountable for what he did to me. But here’s the rub: bad character produces bad results, and it is inevitable that my FW will go on to cause more and more of his own worst problems. In all likelihood, he will also be chumped in the future. Do I gleefully wish that on him? Nope, I don’t need to. It will happen because of him and him alone. I don’t have to lift a finger for it to happen. My forgiveness didn’t happen immediately, and even afterward I hurt and reeled and occasionally have a bad moment. I want to stress moment.
Forgiveness isn’t a feeling, it’s an action. Feelings are…. stupid, wanton, transient. Feelings are “I cheated on you because I found twu wuv”, or “I cheated on you because I didn’t feel loved enough.” Feelings are “I couldn’t help myself because I felt all giddy and wonderful when she sent me nude pictures.”
Action is I am married to this person, will all the agreements and truth, and I will remain faithful. No matter what I feel.
Right now I feel Meh. And I swear that Meh is perhaps the grandest feeling of all, because it allows me to get on with my life without harming anyone.
Thank you, Chump Lady!
I knew that if I made me achieving “meh” and moving on conditional on any action on Ex-Mrs LFTT’s behalf – like all of the things that a perpetrator needs to do to earn the forgiveness of their victims – then I was going to be stuck where I was (and it wasn’t a nice place) forever. So…… If by forgiveness you mean that I accepted that Ex-Mrs LFTT lacked the strength of character and innate empathy to admit what she did to the kids and I was wrong, make amends, apologise and then change her behaviour so that I could get on and build a better life for the kids and I, then I guess that in some small way she’s forgiven.
She’s still a piece of sh*t though and I wouldn’t trust her an inch. F*ck her and the horse she rode in on.
LFTT
I don’t think there should be a requirement to “forgive”. I am so over people saying I need to forgive. Does that mean I have to excuse and accept the behavior of the FW. Nope, I really don’t think I have to do that. Personally, I just don’t care, and I have better things to think about.
Halfway though my marriage, FW “confessed” to infidelity and asked for reconciliation, which I did. Six years later, I discover more shenanigans, and this time worse. No real remorse.
One of the painful but necessary realizations that you must have when you make the decision to divorce: your partner doesn’t give a shit about you.
They’re not your friend. They treated you with contempt.
If forgiveness makes you feel better, then fine. But, it will do jack-all-squat for the cheater. They have already forgiven themselves.
When you forgave him the first time, because you’re a good person, he realized once he got over the shock of discovery, that he could do this again because he figured you’d keep forgiving him. There were no real consequences for his betrayal and of course, the reasons why he betrayed you never changed…..he probably just got better at hiding it or more audacious if he thought it didn’t matter enough to you because you’re weak enough to forgiven him. That’s how they regard forgiveness….as WEAKNESS AND VULNERABILITY to further attack.
Agree. I don’t think they ever felt that they had anything to feel sorry about or to be forgiven. FWs tend to believe that what they did is totally justified.
Oh yes! They practise deceit for so long, they can even convince themselves of their own lies so they sort of do deceive themselves that they haven’t done anything that even requires forgiveness.
They DO know really though, not so very deep down, which is why they have to baffle you, others and even themselves, with such mind-boggling BS!
Such a good point! They don’t need our forgiveness anyway, as they have long since justified their actions and minimized the damage. They don’t even think they need forgiveness, as they have done nothing wrong. Or, if they did it was somehow the chump’s fault anyway.
He had his forgiveness several times. Now that I understand the depth and breath of the abuse fw can rot in hell. Meh for me is not wanting him in my life nor care what happens to him. It does not include forgiveness.
Agree completely. I just do not have a mindset that comprehends what people mean when they say they “forgave” horrible betrayals, or “forgave” that extreme level of knowing, targeted, cruel harm. If forgiveness is a religious concept, then the meaninglessness it has for me matters not (to me). If it’s supposed to keep me from “poisoning myself,” well, I’m doing just fine (and actually way better now that I know and can spot all the manipulator & FW tricks).
I forgave and tried again when I mistakenly thought FW could/would do better and choose to honor me. But after I accepted he was truly not capable of that, I found all my peace in No Contact.
The trauma lives on and yes, the anger (which I think of as a vigilant Doberman standing guard in front of my empathetic inner child, at rest but always ready to lift that lip, stand at attention, and issue a deep growl whenever any former FW approaches me again).
I forgive easily when I see someone has made genuine effort to honor me. But for those whose “remorse” is paper thin (as a FW’s always is), I do not comprehend the concept.
This week I has two opportunities to realize that I’ve really reached ‘meh’ when it comes to the X. Twice I had conversations with people who mentioned that they had recently interacted with the X. I laughed and made a couple of jokes about it, one of the convo’s was with the head of our Dept. who called him “my husband”. I said, “Wait a moment, you need an adjective before that noun. And I paid a lot of $ for that adjective!”
It wasn’t until later this week that I realized with both convo’s, I had joked about their interaction with the X very briefly but I didn’t ask questions about him. What was he doing, who was he with, how did he sound. I did ask about his looks – last time I glimpsed him IRL and in recent pics I’ve seen, he’s taken to wearing a long bandana on his head with the tail coming down his back to meld with his never cut since 5th grade ponytail. I can only surmise his hair has gotten pretty thin on top and he’s hiding it. LMAO. But otherwise, I wasn’t curious other than in a passing a car wreck kinda way, and really don’t care.
And that to me was proof that I’ve reached Don’t Give A Shit when it comes to the X.
“last time I glimpsed him IRL and in recent pics I’ve seen, he’s taken to wearing a long bandana on his head with the tail coming down his back to meld with his never cut since 5th grade ponytail.”
Also unforgivable.
Congrats on the meh. 🙂
There are some things that people do in this life that are absolutely unforgivable. Instead of barfing out forgiveness, we need to be barfing out boundaries and setting them for our safety!
I learned this lesson after I realized I was in a dangerous cycle of surrounding myself with abusive and unhealthy people/relationships because I grew up in an unhealthy household with my narc dad and evil step mother where “forgive and forget” was the theme. That brainwashed mindset later in life almost cost me my kids and ultimately my life.
I’m now narc free in all areas of my life for 5+yrs. It’s amazing how quickly your life can change when you go from “I need to forgive” to “Fuck you!” and set boundaries!
Fuck you is one of the strongest and purest statements people can make in life. It’s genuine, it’s not forced, it’s accurate and it gets the message across.
AMEN!
By the way, I’m thrilled that we get our gremlins back❤️. Best day ever!
Forgiveness trolls rarely regret their actions. The expectation is to get over ‘it’. That giant eraser that eliminated me from a 41 year relationship in one sentence isn’t something I will ever forgive.
No contact denies them access to image management. In truth neither one has anyone to blame but themselves.
Living better lets the truth shine brightly.
The ho got the short end of the broken penis pump dick.
Funny how the “forgiveness trolls” love to dictate to the victims to get over it but they themselves are the least forgiving and get miffed when their direction isn’t followed.
Oh yes. Turned myself into a pretzel trying to forgive the heartless betrayer.
Went so far as to burn the certified letter from AP husband detailing facts and events about the affair. Did this so we could “get past it”, without the betrayer having to deal with it “for the rest of his life”. Tried to burn my feelings along with the letter.
This was in 1992. Fast forward to 2004, after 12 more years of abusive and questionable behavior- you all know what I mean- I finally left.
My husband killed himself before the divorce was final. Our “separation counselor “ we were saying at the time said he thought it was an FU suicide. Of course I will never know.
For so long I have blamed myself for everything. If I had only been wiser, stronger, somehow better yada yada.
I started reading this site a few months ago and it has really helped me heal and to see that the person who needed forgiveness was myself!
I AM ON THE WAY TO FORGIVING MYSELF, the young mother with 3 little kids who was used and abused by the man who was supposed to love and care for me. Was I perfect? Of course not. Did I deserve what happened to me? HELL NO!
From what I see here, most of us have difficulty forgiving ourselves and have a very acute sense of responsibility which has bit us in the butt.
the trauma and mind fuckery inflicted are real, and they don’t go away. We should forgive the perpetrator? I think I in some ways understand him, but the more I think about myself in those years the LESS I feel like forgiving HIM and the more I am forgiving MYSELF .
“he thought it was an FU suicide.” This comment from your “therapist” makes me so angry on your behalf that I want to spit.
Thanks, but it actually jived with how it felt. He couldn’t control me or the narrative any longer, and that was unacceptable to him. Initially I couldn’t have felt more guilty if I had shot him. We were separated with the divorce pending. The best part of one day was being grateful he killed only himself and not me or any of my teenage children.
My X is a gun owner (and a hoarder) he has an arsenal. I never had believed that the X would have ever harmed me. After all, he was a health care giver. But after consequences started coming down, and I could see the anger seething just beneath the surface, I started to get worried. It was one of the reasons I left the house instead of asking him to leave. We lived in a small remote community, there was no safe place for me there. I didn’t get a good night’s sleep for years because of my fear of him snapping one day on me.
In 1988, my then-husband, a registered nurse and gun owner strangled me nearly to death and dumped me on the highway. (I divorced him.). Then, in 1999 I remarried — another registered nurse. This guy owned guns (many, many guns) and three swords. He was also a black belt in two different disciplines of martial arts. I was so sure that neither of them would ever harm me because, after all, they were NURSES. The second one planned a series of fatal accidents for me. I am so lucky he wasn’t a very good planner.
I say this because although I’m sure YOU get this, Skunkcabbage, many people like you were and I was still believe that a healthcare provider would never actually harm them. They would be very wrong. An angry abusive man — whether a healthcare provider, a plumber or a Hell’s Angel — is perfectly capable of and willing to harm you. Stay safe!
I was a nurse, first General , then psychiatric, for nearly 20 years! I know for a fact that not all nurses are kind,gentle people. In fact, I met a lot of horrible nurses during my career especially when I was a 1st year student nurse in General- there was a lot of bullying and we were exploited really!
Then at the worst end of the scale there’s Beverly Allett and now Lucy Letby, actual cold-blooded multiple murderers!
No, not all nurses are angels and a few are downright demonic!
Being in conservative Christian circles, my ex pushed hard for me to forgive, which looked to him like pretending all the bad stuff never happened. At one point, he wanted us to list the decades of hurt against each other, forgive it, and then reconcile. I knew that would be a huge blame-and-game with long-term implications, so I refused. He wanted no accountability and no responsibility for change on his part. It would all be on me. My husband was also convinced that if we started over in a new place and told no one what had happened, all would be well. I knew that wouldn’t work either. So we divorced.
I figured out that forgiving someone else is gradual and very individual and doesn’t always involve reconciliation. Somewhere in there, I accepted that he is deeply damaged and disturbed. I felt compassion for him as a human being. It stopped there, though. I was fair and reasonable in the divorce but took out everything tying me and the college kids to him. I used Bill Eddy’s BIFF method during closeout to keep things moving, particularly after my ex’s attorney died and he went pro se.
And yes, I forgave myself for tolerating so very much garage. I asked my college kids for forgiveness for letting him make their childhood chaotic and for not being there for them after he first took off. I really didn’t have my head at all together for about a year. It was a slow process of working things out with them.
It’s been long enough now that I just feel a little pain of sadness thinking about him. It didn’t have to be that way, but he chose how things went down. And I let go and found meh.
How did your kids respond to you asking them for forgiveness during the chaos?
My kids truly hated me when he left because they felt like I had been enabling him and was part of why our lives were a mess. That began to change as I stopped making excuses for him and didn’t try to manage their relationship with him They knew that I was doing the best I could with the economic realities.
He had been gone three years, and the divorce was final. Closeout wasn’t going well. I asked them for forgiveness as part of my inventory and making amends in a twelve-step group.
They took it well, and it’s been better and better since.
I am 10 years out from D-Day, 5 yrs divorced. So much psychological abuse put down on me by my ex before, during and after divorce due to his affair with a young employee. He blew up my life and our toddler son’s life with his selfish choices and we feel the repurcussions of his actions every day. So…. forgiveness?! Maybe forgiveness for myself for putting up with his abuse for so long. Forgiveness for choosing a covert narc as my son’s dad, a great kid who deserves so much better. But forgiveness for an abuser who’s closest comment to “remorse” was — “we both made mistakes in the marriage.” Yeah, no. Forgiveness to me is radical acceptance that he is who is he… an abusive narc cheater with an empty elevator shaft where his soul should be. (I think that’s a gem I picked up from CL years ago.) I couldn’t change him. He isn’t going to change for our son who is now a pre-teen and dealing with seeing who his dad really is. And those who force the forgiveness lecture on me, including my own family? Well, I’m guessing my pain made them feel uncomfortable, so could we just all let bygones be bygones and forgive and move on? Accept who FW is and move on… yes. But forgivenss is for me and my broken heart.
He’s still abusing you via your son and he’s directly abusing your son, so those saying such things to you are not nearly as good people as they probably like to think they are and TBH, people like that vex me! You’re right in that your pain makes them uncomfortable and being comfortable matters to them more than having compassion for your pain!
You’re not getting a chance to let the justifiable anger go and they’re making it worse. Think of the words of St. John Chrysostom every time they start “He ( or she) who is not angry when he/she has just cause, sins.”
You definitely have just cause!
“Forgiveness to me is radical acceptance that he is who is he… an abusive narc cheater with an empty elevator shaft where his soul should be….Forgiveness is for me and my broken heart.”
— This is very helpful to my understanding, thank you.
Radical forgiveness was such a game-changer for me. Yes, it all really, really sucked, but I can let it go. He can go down in a whirlpool of his own making, or whatever.
Preach.
I think you are on to something, our pain makes others uncomfortable so we should “let it go”. What that really means is hide it.
Yes, because sitting with you and your pain, feeling empathy and giving a bit of loving compassion requires something of them they don’t want to give, so they want you to shut up and pretend.
I see this as a failure to love and we should be wary of people who passively fail to love as well as those who actively choose to hurt and harm! They’re not as good as they probably think they are!
That’s exactly it. If we stop being obviously in pain, they can stop showing compassion. Having to be compassionate is not comfortable for them. That’s how you know you’re dealing with asshole, when their compassion is a finite resource and they don’t want to spend any more of it on you.
My minister preached an awesome message regarding forgiveness on Sunday. He said forgiveness if for yourself, not the person who did you wrong.
But the best part, what forgiveness wasn’t. Forgiveness does not mean the relationship is healed. Specifically in cases of infidelity and abuse, the relationship is permanently severed, especially if the wrong doer is still doing whatever they did. He also said in cases of abuse where there is a potential of harm, you definitely do not want to be in that relationship. I cried and thanked him for his message.
What makes me so mad regarding forgiveness is that people have accused me of with holding forgiveness because I have absolutely NO relationship with my ex, the kids father. Even though I have healed tremendously, the fear will always be there, because he is still a dangerous man and has not changed. Would you want to have a relationship with a person walking around in public that you know has the potential for violence. When those zealots have told me this, its religious abuse again.
Your pastor is right and those others are badly, seriously wrong!
I think people mistake forgiveness for absolution i.e. wiping the slate clean and treating the offender as is they never offended. That’s not what is meant by forgiveness which is merely letting go of the debt owed, not seeking revenge and being willing to let the anger pass ( but not trying to force anger away which is impossible). Forgiveness also does not mean giving up seeking or wanting justice. You can forgive an attacker but still have them prosecuted and you should. We do not have to absolve and unrepentant offender, and if they’re a dangerous one as abusers and adulterers are, we should NOT absolve them. God only absolves the repentant sinner, the sinner who hates their sins and genuinely, humbly desires to stop. Most abusers refuse to even acknowledge they’re doing wrong, so absolution is impossible. Most importantly, it would be dangerous for the victim.
Trying to guilt-trip victims into absolving unrepentant offenders is an error, a lack of understanding at best, and a re-victimising of the victim , a form of emotional abuse, at worst. I do wish such people would shut up, but best thing to do is ignore them and pray for them to gain proper understanding!
Personally, I do not understand the concept of how forgiveness is helpful to the forgiver. Maybe it’s not having a religious background that is the reason why this does not resonate with me. I don’t find peace in forgiveness. I only find peace in staying away from people who do wrong.
That doesn’t include minor bad acts which don’t require much in the way of forgiveness. I’ll just give the person a pass in those cases. However, if an act is vile enough that forgiveness is difficult, I don’t see any benefit to the forgiver in trying to get there. I can be righteously angry about something my whole life while still living well. Fot me, to not be angry, while living in such an unjust world, would mean I’m not healthy, aware and fully alive.
Just my two cents. Would love to hear about how forgiveness helps others.
Ohffs. For me, I can still get really angry, and that feels fine. But I don’t feel vengeful anymore. I don’t wish him ill. To be honest, I wouldn’t have thought I forgave him at all… but the comments today make me think I have because of the specific definition used. “not wanting harm or revenge to befall them”. I still think he is an absolute dickhead.
I didn’t feel good when I wanted revenge. It made ME feel icky. If I think about what he did, I don’t want him dead, but I do get really angry. I don’t call him up. I deal with it myself and it feels FINE. Empowering even. It makes me feel stronger and reminds me I don’t have to put up with his shit anymore. Vengefulness feels awful.
I do not blame any Chumps if they feel vengeful. I am shocked that I don’t. But I think maybe that is what all the hoopla is about “forgiveness is for you”. If the hate makes you queasy, you’ll possibly feel better if you forgive. Hmm… worth pointing out, HE wouldn’t say I forgave him if asked. This is all internal for me.
But..what do I know? I still get incredibly mad, so maybe I am kidding myself and I am nowhere near forgiveness. And I will never give up my anger because it reminds me he is dangerous and unsafe.
I led divorce recovery groups in two different churches over a seven year period. The first was a conservative Evangelical church whose message on divorce and forgiveness was ultimately abusive. Forgiveness was almost a salvation issue and grounds and remarriage for divorce were so restrictive. All in the name of the New King James Bible they worshipped.
The second experience was so much better. The emphasis was in healing and building a new life. Forgiveness was defined as a way to move past the hurt towards healing, not restoration of a relationship. The Bible was used to provide insight, not to be a hammer to pound down protruding nail heads.
I have forgiven myself for being chumped and believing that he loved me. I forgive myself for acting as if we were a normal happy family. I forgive myself for wasting 30 years of my life with Ex. I can’t ever get over the fact that when he abandoned us, he destroyed our children. He tells them that he “only left your mother, I didn’t leave you”. But he did leave them. And left me to pick up the pieces. Now that he’s inherited a lot of money, he and AP have leverage over the kids. Yes, I know, teenage brains. It sucks. He can buy the new cars and take them on foreign trips. Stuff that I can’t and probably will never be able to do. Now he gets to play happy family with MY kids and AP. Friends tell me I need to let it go and I’m better off (I am engaged to a fabulous man), but I am really struggling lately, I truly hope that he dies soon.
My X and his family have $ (but they are draining it fast) and have taken my son on trips to Mexico and around the country. I struggle each month to pay the bills, make sure there’s food in the fridge and clothes on our backs. I’m finally, in this last decade of work before (please god let it be so) retirement, starting to advance in my job and I can see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. But more than likely, I never will be able to buy my kid a car, or take him to Europe.
That said, who was it that picked up the pieces when the X dropped the ball on the college enrollment process? Who was it that pulled out the CC to pay for dorm or plane ticket or…? The kid knows it wasn’t his Dad pulling rabbits out his ass to make things happen, it was his Mother.
I expect once the kid reached 30 something and has a bit of relationship and life experience of his own, he’ll fully realize what his parents did and didn’t do for him.
I pray for the same, that the kids realize who was there and who wasn’t.
I am completely on board with what CL said here:
“ … you can move on just fine without forgiveness. To me, forgiveness is acceptance. It’s meh. The rejection of revenge. The offender no longer has the power to hurt me, I’m indifferent to the bullshit. I’ve given up on karmic reckonings, I’ve got my own life to live. Which I control. Comeuppance, not so much.”
I would prefer that we look at it as “letting go.” Not “forgiveness.” Forgiveness seems to have religious connotations (sort of a “Jesus forgives” thing… Then everyone thinks they HAVE to forgive).
I don’t think that way. The only one I needed to forgive was myself. I stopped feeling guilty for picking that asshat to marry and procreate with. I forgave myself for missing or ignoring too many red flags.
But FW? There’s nothing to forgive. He didn’t ask for forgiveness. He doesn’t think he did anything wrong. So for me, “forgiveness” doesn’t make sense. Instead I let go… grey rock… and moved on. I got a good job, took care of my son and I’m in a relationship with someone else. FW gets zero energy.
Although if I’m being truthful, sometimes I’m just an ass and feel like messing with him. He doesn’t respond to anything for his son, but I know he’s a puppet when I hit the right buttons. I needed son’s insurance this week for a dental appointment and FW wouldn’t answer me or the dentist office. So maybe once every year I text something just for shits and giggles (last night Dick Butkus passed away and FW is a huge Bears fan. So I typed simply that he had passed. Immediately I got a text back with a thank you and a photo of our son with Dick Butkus from 10 years ago. And I went back to grey rock.) But meh and ick
“Forgiveness seems to have religious connotations (sort of a “Jesus forgives” thing… Then everyone thinks they HAVE to forgive).”
I think you hit the nail on the head of why I find the concept of forgiving abusers so creepy. I wasn’t raised religious. I see no reason why I need to adhere to someone’s arbitrary standards that aren’t part of my ethics. I don’t consent to someone’s religion being pushed on me, especially in the context of an abuser.
MarissaChump, exactly. In truth it makes me question the whole forgiveness thing. The church imposes forgiveness on the Chump… But where is the forced apology and making amends by the FW? Why isn’t that REQUIRED? The FW is the “sinner.” I just don’t get any of it. (I’m Jewish FWIW… and this forgiveness thing is not how we do it. It’s on us to apologize and make amends for our mistakes… and the other person is not required to forgive)
In my opinion, people are quick to impose a command to forgive while ignoring the real trauma and injustices involved. They make it about engaging in the forgiveness BEFORE the grieving process, and that just does NOT work. It is spiritually abusive, in my opinion. Plus, some people have a real twisted idea of what forgiveness entails. For some of us, the furthest we can get on the forgiveness path is that neutral place of “Meh” that CL describes in this post–which is fine. Forgiveness is a gift ready for the cheater if he or she ever humbles themselves, admits wrongdoing, and repents–changes their ways. Sadly, for most of us, it is a gift that will NEVER be opened because our Cheater will die before they humble themselves.
With cheating, you are dealing with a theft of reality. You just don’t know the real history of the marriage with a lying cheater. To insist upon forgiveness creates a dynamic of reinforcing denial. Because you forgave, right? But you didn’t, because you cannot forgive what you never knew happened. “Forgiveness” is denial in that situation as to say that we don’t need to talk about what happen. Real forgiveness acknowledges the wrong and names it as such to forgive it. I wish more therapists and pastors were aware of the theft of identity dynamic and how pushing forgiveness can make the wounds worse.
So helpful thank you, DM.
I am turning that phrase theft of reality over in my mind.
That is an excellent point, DM. You cannot forgive when you don’t know the full extent of what you are forgiving.
Thank you, D.M., for saying this.
I also wish that more therapists and pastors saw this like you do.
Because when they push the “forgive” (and forgive right away) I get so frustrated that I want to smack them up-side-the-head with a rubber chicken.
9 years since Dday. 25 year marriage to covert narc. Divorced 7 years. Kids grown – completely no contact. My career has steadily rocketed, my prospects for a decent retirement are good, I’ve repartnered and am engaged to a mensch and we bought our dream horse farm where my son, wife and baby grandson live in the ADU, kids are doing great, health is decent. I feel mostly neutral to XH. He’s a diagnosed sociopath- always probably was. He conned me. My mom and dad were addict narcissists and that had an impact on me. I understand and accept these facts. I’ll never approve of the abuse these three perpetuated. I’ve survived and thrived despite their abuse. I’m mighty. I live a purpose driven, ethical life. I like how I treat myself and others. I have amazing boundaries. Life is good and worth living. Forgiveness? Yes, by my definition as stated. When I see XH on rare occasions (eg kid’s college graduation), I’m mildly pleasant- how I’d treat a stranger. I wouldn’t cross a street to chat if I saw him but I might nod my head in his direction🤣. It took 3 years after divorce was finalized and steady no contact to get here.
I can’t imagine forgiving him. He never admitted he did anything wrong and denied his wrongdoings at the top of his lungs. His abandoning me by e-mail to run off with a whore our daughter’s age after 28 years or marriage was 100% my fault according to him. That half-his-age whore that he denied existed? He married her. Total co-inky-dink. Our adult children’s unwillingness to get over it is just a sign of their arrogance and bitterness because their mother poisoned them.
He spent the 30+ years we were together repeating the same pattern: Do something horrible, NEVER admit fault nor apologize, wait long enough in passive aggressive limbo until I “got over it” and forgave him in my desperate attempt to make him stop his raging, sulking, or silent treatments. He would then continue his life free of guilt while making sure to remind me how I took so long to get over it and how I am bitter and hold grudges and how I was just so ANGRY all the time. He claimed he never apologized because I wouldn’t accept it anyway.
All while he actively shopping for my replacement, having flirtations, emotional affairs, and full on debauchery that he lied about daily. He resented and ignored his family and gave everything to meaningless co-workers.
He is currently confused that our adult children have not bent to his grand new life plan yet after 6 years since his abandonment. Why are they such bitter bitches that they have not gotten over it? You know, forgive him for that thing he aggressively denied and can’t articulate that he ever did wrong in the first place? Obviously more poisoning by me. He has now re-written this recent history as well as the prior 30 years we were married, and if asked he would probably say that he NEVER denied the whore existed in the first place and he simply had to find happiness for once in his life, and I was just so angry all the time that was miserable and had to escape. This current lie would serve him better than the truth.
Nothing to work with there.
This was my story to the T Now I. C.. My 2 XH felt I was the sole reason they cheated and it was all my fault. So how can I forgive someone who did nothing to me but gave me what I deserved? I DESERVED to be abused and lied to and used. So what exactly am I forgiving after 32 years of trusting words? MYSELF! And once I saw what had happened to me, a beautiful kind and trusting person, I knew that my creepy XHs were sick and disturbed. I leave people with contagious diseases ( spreading STDs)ALONE. I’m not an infectious disease doctor, nor am I a Sex therapist, nor am I a marriage counselor or a urologist. Therefore I have nothing to offer my Xs and zero to work with. What I do have is forgiveness, gentleness, love and great hope for MYSELF. That means I already have a full time job of healing ahead. My Xs get none of me because I cannot help them in harming this precious self ever again. I am no longer participating in my own harm.
“He resented and ignored his family and gave everything to meaningless co-workers.”
Yep. Been there. They can impress co-workers because co-workers don’t see who they really are. They don’t expend energy on those they can’t impress or those who have already been bamboozled many times over, who are therefore low hanging fruit.
I have not and will never forgive the cheater and I am just fine over that. Besides, I don’t even feel it is my place to forgive since cheater harmed so many people besides myself, several of them minors. My struggle has been my safety from cheater and learning to live with myself for staying when there was open evidence of all the harm cheater caused. Luckily I have had exactly no one in my life try to tell me to forgive cheater because they all know cheater is a dangerous monster. I didn’t keep any of the flying monkeys around.
In one lumpy, unsuccessful family therapy-type session, I stated that I felt really attacked when my adult children helped their FW father hire an attorney for the divorce. FW originally said he would just sign whatever my attorney put together and then, of course, when things were to be SPLIT in half he quickly started complaining….consequences! How was he going to afford to buy the new home he promised schmoopie?
The family-type therapist replied that she would encourage anyone to get a good attorney in this type of life-changing situation and my adult child nodded in agreement.
My snarky, pain ridden soul just barely able to stand after months of screaming in the fetal position – wanted to say, “Great. So if you’re brutally attacked on the street, or one of my grandchildren is abducted, just know I might be distracted for a while. I’ll want to be sure the attacker is getting his full legal protection in place. Everyone deserves that.”
I didn’t say it. That’s my level of forgiveness at this point. I cried and clicked off the zoom.
That’s horrible, TG. I’m so sorry.
Forgiveness is a sickness in our society. It is an unwillingness to take responsibility to ensure that we at least attempt to make life fair and equitable. It allows people who do terrible things to others to get away with it because we don’t want to adult. Forgiveness should never be automatic – maybe in the case of someone who made a genuine mistake or accident like breaking a coffee cup or a vase but not for any behavior that involves malicious planning and deception and breaking people’s trust and hearts. That is WRONG. In the Biblical days when someone did something wrong, they were expected to provide SOME KIND OF RESTITUTION before they were “forgiven” or the problem considered resolved (which is what forgiveness is essentially). They had to repent of whatever they did, and try to provide some kind of restitution to who they injured. That showed that they were serious about being sorry for the damage and wanting to make it up – not just saying meaningless shit to get off the hook and avoid bad feelings.
Stop automatically forgiving people. They lied to you, deceived you, stole your money, hoodwinked and possibly abandoned your kids, left you in poverty, broke your heart, stole your trust….you don’t owe someone who would do this a damn thing, and the one thing you owe your kids is THE TRUTH. They need to know that to know who and how to trust or they’ll be hurt too. If someone wants forgiveness….THEY HAVE TO EARN IT.
People are sometimes concerned about forgiveness because they think not forgiving impedes getting to “meh”. But it doesn’t. There are people who treated me terribly especially in work situations – real betrayal. I never forgave them and never will. But I don’t have to….eventually if you don’t interact with them and get involved in other things you just…..forget about them. It’s not like it consumes your existence forever…..at some point if you don’t engage with them and don’t look them up on SM and keep NC….they recede into the past, the emotions lose their edge, and you just…..forget about them. You DON’T need to forgive them to heal. In fact, I would say attempts to unilaterally forgive bad behavior without getting anything back from them….are going to make you sicker.
Instead of forgiveness….BRING BACK SHAMING. People should be shamed for these bad behaviors, not forgiven. They do nothing to deserve forgiveness.
I’ve been living my life and it’s a whole hell of a lot better without every single one of my cheaters.
Though the other day, after seeing Saw X (new installment in the Saw series) I did fondly imagine my abuser being set up in a trap that would require him to pull out some of his teeth to escape…
Forgiveness to me was when I realized I no longer was imagining him floating face down in the Ohio River. We never became friends, or spent any time shooting the bull.
About 20 years post Divorce he and the whore caused my son and sons family all sorts of pain, until they could get them at arms length. I haven’t even thought about forgiveness for that. When his dad got bad sick, I did pray for him, and I meant it, and it saddened me when a few years later he died. If that is forgiveness, then ok. But I still think of the pain he caused us all from time to time.
I think I am ok with it all. I never once after the initial imaginings of him in the river wished any bad stuff on him or anyone.
My ex and I reconciled for seven years after her two affairs, as a result of me forgiving her and wanting to move on with a sense of a renewed marriage. And it was pretty good for that time, as I trusted her and there were no signs of any new affairs (and there were lots of clues and evidence during the first ones). So I was surprised at the end when I got kicked out of the bedroom with her saying she didn’t want to see me or talk to me.
Soon enough she started divorce proceedings and I managed to work through that without doing the “pick-me” dance and reaching a settlement via mediation, so without a huge expense on lawyers. Even so, she did reveal her true angry entitled self during this, but I was grey rock and didn’t respond to her numerous provocations.
The divorce has been final for two years, and I’ve been no contact since then, even though she reached out a few times during the first year of that, with no response from me, and eventually I blocked her phone, social media and email.
I found this site soon after the divorce was finalized, and it has set me on a new path regarding my initial forgiveness, and that I realized that I gave it too freely, as she never apologized or worked on herself and I didn’t consider what the affairs showed about her true character, and was in denial about her being committed to our marriage. So now, I’ve taken back that forgiveness, and continue to work on myself, building my life back, and reaching “meh”, which is still a ways away, as I still get angry when I think of how she treated me.
I know that I wouldn’t have gotten this far without Chump Lady or my fellow chumps here, and I know I’ll be able to reach “meh” without forgiving her, but accepting her as being what she showed me she was.
Well done, CandD. I think the anger is probably always going to be there when we think about what they did to us, but the beauty of meh is that you don’t think about it that much. Coming here actually helps with that. It sounds counterintuitive, because we are talking about it. However, because sharing helps process and deal with our feelings, we are less likely to think about it in general.
I’m personally keen to hold a grudge. After years of “reverse gaslighting” (Ross Rosenberg’s phase – when crazy is normalised), forgiving a fake arse clown does not feel truthful or authentic, which is how I want to live my life.
I’m only 15 months out from my traumatic D-day and I’m not yet at meh. I still get massive trauma responses. Just a few days ago while I was telling someone my story I had a flashback & full on panic attack and had to arrive at work late.
I am still processing my understanding of this topic for sure. Earlier today I wrote this to a friend:
“I wish him no harm. Forgiveness for me means that I’ve given him to God and I’ve released to God the issue of justice about being betrayed and harmed via being abused and taken advantage of.”
“I’m not all warm and fuzzy about being defrauded.” THIS. This is my entire philosophy about forgiveness in this situation. In addition, my FWEx hasn’t ever asked for forgiveness after I initiated divorce, and the times before he only pretended to ask for it, to better defraud me AGAIN. I do forgive myself. For my fears and overfunctioning and believing that being alone was a terrible fate and for not modeling mightiness sooner for my kid. I am working on that, at least. But forgive the fraudster who led a double life and had multiple sexual basements before we even met? NOPE.
It’s not just the cheater caught in the Forgiveness mantra. What about Switzerland friends, what about betrayal by churches, Pastors, FAMILY and all the people you BELIEVED loved you and had your back? It’s not just one person, it’s a whole pool full of floating and sunken poop mounds. I was in the pool this summer and someone did one mound but then went into the kids pool, the lap pool and the diving pool. Like that. The lifeguards blew the whistle and we emptied the pool!!!
So my take is TRACY IS RIGHT. When you are ready to LET IT GO (Q in the Frozen song🎵) when I AM READY to feel better if ever…then it is my business alone to decide. Do we tell someone who has lost a loved one TO GET OVER IT ALREADY?.NO we are compassionate. Same thing. OK so letting it go slowly is like me,deleting all the pictures of my 31st Anniversary before D day when my FH was giving this cheesy smile all over photos at our beautiful B&B week in Arkansas. He was cheating for YEARS with random and I had no idea. So this is my forgiveness, DELETE. DELETE, DELETE. YES I felt better.
I’ve seen too much hurt for chumps to wait for the Karma bus, but every day I live well is getting even. Every day I take good care of my body mind and spirit=getting even. Lose weight, girl friends=getting even. Deleting, burning,shredding the lies= getting even. Saying goodbye to Switzerland friends, leaving my church and finding service in helping others=even. Like that. Then letting go and being careful of who I pick to spend time with..perfect revenge on the woman ( me) who was trapped with a cheater,loser,disease carrying creep. I AM FREE! BEST way to forgiveness? Get even by finally taking care of ME.
“What about Switzerland friends, what about betrayal by churches, Pastors, FAMILY and all the people you BELIEVED loved you and had your back?”
Yeah, I don’t forgive them either. While they way they have treated me it is deeply painful, I’m grateful I had the opportunity to see who they really are and how they really feel about me. Now I need not waste one more minute of my one precious life on them. I also know that the ones who stood by me are pure gold. I did have a sense of who I could and couldn’t trust before being chumped, but didn’t know the full extent of their treacherous natures. That kind of knowledge is precious indeed.
Yes this is so true OHFFS! I now know who my true friends are and I’ve made new ones! It is such a gift to know NOW who has my back. Before I did not see it. Thank you for the reminder.
To me, forgiveness means giving somebody a pass. It’s acknowledgment that while a person may have done a shitty thing, he/she is not really a shitty person, and so you let go of your anger about it. That requires, of course, that the person is remorseful and makes amends.
None of this is true of most cheaters. There are a few who get staggeringly drunk and have a one off, disclose it immediately and are truly remorseful, then never repeat either getting staggeringly drunk or having one-nighters. The majority, however, are not remorseful, but in fact are giddy with their power to hurt you, and will gladly do it again. In fact, once they get a taste of it, they can’t imagine going without it. Serial cheaters and those who have long term affairs are all like that, IMO. I don’t care how many of them are out there on the internet claiming to be changed. They are either lying outright or fooling themselves. If they don’t do it again, it’s only due to lack of opportunity or advanced age putting a cramp in the ol’ crotch. There is no possibility of forgiveness for people who wilfully do harm to those they claim to love and get a thrill from so doing.
While I have not tried to forgive a cheater, I would only recommend doing it from afar, with the cheater completely out of your orbit. FWs are cynical people who are contemptuous of anyone who would forgive them, making it even more likely they will repeat. Even if you are no longer a couple, they will take it as license to screw you over in other ways.They see forgiveness, empathy, compassion, all the things that are the better part of human nature, as weakness. They certainly would never forgive you. Hell, they won’t even forgive you for using bagged salad, let alone cheating.
Cheater forgiveness: “I forgive you Chump for making me use and abuse you”
Chump forgiveness: “Enjoy the 9th ring special seat warmers Cheater!” 🔥😈
OHFF,
My thoughts exactly, including the comments on Switzerland friends.
Is “forgiveness” something that is more urged on women than men? Is it supposed to be part of the never ending shit sandwich women are supposed to eat in maintaining “relationships”?
My former FW has never asked for forgiveness – and he recanted after admitting to cheating on me for our entire marriage. So, really, there is nothing to forgive as, according to his narrative, he did nothing wrong.
I am not concerned about forgiving him. I am concerned about being at peace with my decisions and my life. After 6 years, I have built an awesome new life, I have family, friends and even a new man in my life! I don’t think about him much.
I know that he will continue to be him. He will continue to flirt with every woman he meets, and cheat on every partner he has. He’ll blame others for his lack of success. He’ll never have deep, caring relationships…. so as I learned from CN, his karma is that he has to be him. And I think it would really suck to be him.
I was planning to leave my husband because of his abusiveness; but then my sister-in-law informed me of his “inappropriate communication with his HS girlfriend.” My husband, like most cheaters, trickle-truthed, denying everything I couldn’t prove. My phone bill revealed they had exchanged 30-300 texts per day going back years, but he admitted to “a few texts” over “the last few months.” And besides, he said, it wasn’t inappropriate because there was no physical affair — he hadn’t even seen her for 40 years.
Earlier that day, my sister-in-law had driven past the HS girlfriend’s home on our way pick up food together, and there was MY car sitting in her driveway. That made lie to his statement that he hadn’t even seen her for 40 years. I was incandescent with rage. But there was a hurricane approaching, and we were “weathered in” for the duration. That night, as the wind howled, the rain battered the roof and windows and the water level in the canal behind the house steadily rose, my very Catholic sister-in-law took me aside and said, “You’re going to have to forgive him. If you don’t, at some point, it becomes YOUR issue, not his.”
If “forgiveness” means I no longer fantasize about his public humiliation or about gutting him with a fish knife, I guess I’ve forgiven him. But I haven’t seen nor heard from him in three years, and I’m at peace with that — so he’s had all the forgiveness he deserves.
I ran into this quote the other day: May the bridges I burn today light the way for a better tomorrow.
Fuck forgiveness. Acceptance of what she did, yes. She really did it. Moving on from the shock of being so deceived, yes. I am moving on. I forgive myself for being so stupid to believe and trust her.
Forgiveness is something I bestow upon someone who has sincerely apologized for hurting me. And even then, its up to me whether I choose to forgive or not.
I’m happily to meh and have been for sometime, but I’ll never forgive that asshole, just like I’d never forgive someone for mugging me. I know he’s still a garbage person inside in a nice guy wrapper, only now it’s for some other poor schmuck. At least it’s not me.
I feel like I have PTSD hearing the word “ forgiveness” thrown around, let alone decide what to do with it in my own life.
It’s a triggering word and it makes me angry just to hear it brought up by ppl that believe all should be forgiven over time.
I’m with CL in dealing with these situations. I accept what happened, I’m not plotting to murder my ex, but I also want nothing whatsoever to do with him for the rest of my life.
I feel that to be exceptionably reasonable and a most generous offer, knowing what he’s done to my life and that of my kids.
I’m still very angry with him five years post divorce and I think my anger is also justified and deserved.
Even having to think of forgiving myself for his abuses feels like an affront to me.
Should I forgive myself for being so gaslit and abused over the years, that I didn’t realize I was actually so gaslit and abused over the years? No, I won’t do that.
The ability to recognize it as abuse would have been completely and utterly out of my frame of reference of what a person was capable of. Does that need my personal forgiveness to get over it?
Not realizing how much harm someone you loved can inflict on you. Is that just cause for my fault in not knowing or seeing it?
It feels like I hold some of the guilt for the outcome if I require forgiveness of myself.
just don’t feel I bear any guilt for believing someone was as wonderful as they portended to be, but were actually a horrible deceitful abuser for decades of my life with them.
No, I didn’t see that coming on any level that I , or another sane person, would have been able to recognize.
In retrospect? With 20/20 hindsight? After going no contact and looking deep?
Yeah, the abuse was there. I can see it now.
I don’t believe it was really knowable while in the middle of it all though.
Do I ask for forgiveness because my mind was incapable of traipsing through his f’ed up dark sexual basement?
My thoughts were more: it’s a brain tumor, FOO issues, a mental illness, personality disorder, severe stress, result of childhood abuses, a midlife crisis or two or three, etc and so on.
And all those things point to the fact, in my mind, that I should help this loved one deal with his issues, not run away.
Of course, once the cheating surfaced, it was time to bail. But the incredulous ness of it, the utter shock to our systems and the fog was so thick, it was extremely difficult to process, let alone save our own lives.
I don’t feel I need to be forgiven for being in so much pain I couldn’t react.
I loved an asshole who presented himself as the most amazing man on the planet and I believed him. I’m not asking for forgiveness for that.
That was some of the deepest darkest levels of deceit I was being manipulated with, with zero knowledge it even could be a thing.
I think of being in the parking lot while Ted Bundy is loading his groceries, with his ‘broken arm’, requesting your assistance to help load his car.
Do we have to ask for forgiveness for helping someone in need when they turn out to be psychopaths? Do we need forgiveness for unknowingly being in harm’s way?
Never trust another human being in your entire life, because there are a spattering of very sick fricks out there.,Is that the takeaway?
No, I can’t and won’t live in a world like that. That I believed in the goodness of another human is not, in my mind, a crime that needs to be forgiven.
That’s what forgiveness feels like to me.
I did something deeply wrong by loving and trusting another. I believed in the goodness of someone with every single ounce of my being.
I’m not asking forgiveness for that. I also won’t forgive him for the life changing pain he’s caused in my world.
The God I converse with is fine with that.
I’m still deep in shock, fog, numbness and brain-stopping pain. It’s hard to articulate my experience. I could have written what you just said here, Chumpasuarus45. Thank you for posting this and helping me to understand my own experience as a result.
Chump45, you have the truth. How can I forgive myself for loving?? Trusting? This is true . But I swept past red red flags. There were sighting of a cheater but I could. Not . Believe anyone would treat me that way knowing my first cheater hurt me so badly. So it was hope and blaming mental illness for horrible behavior that kept me. I had eyes that refused to see. Perhaps letting go of my own rage at myself x2..for allowing such reinjuries and never waiting to escape again.
Sending test comment
I did not forgive my first husband although he gave a vague “I’m sorry for anything I did to hurt you.” It was a double betrayal and he and the wifetress continued to be cruel to me until I went completely no contact. We had no children together but shared “custody” of our 2 dogs. A topic for another day, but I don’t recommend that!
I did forgive my second husband. He got sober and became a born again Christian. He expressed what I felt to be genuine remorse on more than one occasion. Again, no children together, but I helped him raise his children, who I still have a good relationship with.
He became disabled and I helped him navigate many things, including a move back to his hometown. He called me frequently to chat and get advice.
He died a few months ago and I have to say the grief has been harder than I expected.
When I went to his funeral, his siblings and Church friends all expressed gratitude to me
for remaining in his life as a friend. He apparently spoke highly of me to them.
I don’t think anyone is obligated to forgive anyone for anything. No one knows your circumstances better than you.
Don’t you love those vague apologies. “um, I’m sorry for that vague little thing I did, which may or may not have hurt you”.
I don’t know why but I’m not mad anymore. I’m disgusted and I feel more insulted and embarrassed by him then angry. He’s a selfish, self centered, self serving Narcissist. I’ve known this for years and yet I was stupidly blinded by what? Love? It wasn’t love it was fear of being alone and what I thought I would loose. I’ve gained so much more clarity going NC and choosing myself over the sub par humane treatment I was given by him. I feel sad for the person he is. I feel sad that he is the father my children are stuck with. But anger? I feel it at times when I think of all the ways he deceived me and what he was willing to do to the children and I, but anger at him for all he did? No more just utter disgust. I will never forgive him. No matter what. The things he was willing to put us through, allow us to go through, and continually doing it after seeing the consequences on the kids. No. They were innocent, he could have played with me all he wanted to but the kids….how could he. Why would he? My unconditional love for them allowed me to see the total ugliness in him. I would never forgive someone who devastated their lives so why would I forgive their father, the one other person who should love them the way I do. He doesn’t deserve my forgiveness the way we didn’t deserve his mistreatment and he will never get it from me. Maybe the kids will, but honestly, meh I could care less.
I’m in a hard place at the moment.
Coming to terms with my son’s (21) substance addiction. When FW was here I was just trying to survive his emotional abuse and gaslighting. Did not know about son’s problems.
Now that FW is gone, I am confronting my son’s situation. I will have to cut him off financially and perhaps kick him out. FW is useless, as usual. A passive aggressive coward covert narcissist.
Will I ever forgive FW? Too soon and too painful right now.
Today I went to an Alanon zoom meeting. Don’t know what else to do. Feeling gutted. Tired, sick. Depressed. Hopeless. Alone. FW is the least of my concerns right now.
Alanon is a great for at resource for dealing with your son’s behavior. Try not to confuse co-dependency with being a chump. There may be some similar strategies/responses such as letting go of what you can’t control. And paying attention to actions, not words.
I am so sorry you are going through this. When our kids are harming themselves it is so heartbreaking and frightening.
F$&k No!!!
forgiveness is not giving any Fs
When a bank forgives a loan, they stop pursuing repayment of the loan. They also stop doing business with you.
I have forgiven the cheater like a bank forgives a loan.
This is interesting point. I have not forgiven past Dday because I’m am still seeking some level of restitution, solely financially, of what I lost through FWs defrauding me by my making decisions that irrevocably robbed me of my financial independence through deceit. I will never get proper restitution but a good settlement has years left in it to at least not leave me destitute. As for everything else I lost, years of my life and true agency in my choices, I no longer care. I’m happier without FW every day and that’s all I need.
I did and repeatedly do. It’s for me, not her.
For me, forgiveness was “meh”. When I didn’t care. When I wasn’t looking for revenge or waiting for bad things to befall FW.
But mostly it was when I realized that I no longer needed an apology from him. That it would change NOTHING about how I felt or how I was living my life. It didn’t matter if he was sorry or not.
OW did apologize to me (sort of) after she dumped FW, and I didn’t care about that either. I ignored her email completely.
Bad things did eventually befall FW, and it didn’t give me any kind of satisfaction.