He Cheated for ‘Validation’?
He says he cheated on her for validation because of his abandonment issues. Why does she feel compelled to keep taking him back?
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Hi Chump Lady,
For the past year and a half, I have been on-again-off-again trying to reconcile with my boyfriend who began cheating on me around the time that I chose to have an abortion. In my memory, the flirting (with his soon to be affair partner) began before my ultimate decision. It was a factor in me not feeling confident in going through with the pregnancy and first-time motherhood.
In our attempts to reconcile, he states that my decision to terminate triggered abandonment feelings for him.
He says that he subconsciously was seeking validation and support from this woman with whom he also confides about the abortion.
Sometimes I feel for him and can believe his perspective and think that it was all a bad comedy of errors. Other times, it just feels so manipulative and I feel my self-worth shrinking in prioritizing his perspective over my own.
There was a lot of gaslighting and deception in keeping his 4-month affair going as she was someone I also interacted with and I noticed immediately the chemistry between them.
I have broken up 5 times now and always been pulled back (maybe I am lonely). Do you have any advice for me? Is there some validity to his rationalization? Or am I just the quintessential chump who is scared of starting over?
Thank you,
Meghan
P.S. I just ordered your book and have been checking out your blog and some YouTube content. Thank you for creating this content.
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Dear Meghan,
Your boyfriend is a fuckwit. There’s his validation. You should leave him. There’s yours.
What, Tracy? That’s rather a short column today.
I suppose you were expecting some untangling of the dipshittery that he cheated for validation. But it’s completely pointless.
Is there some validity to his rationalization?
It doesn’t matter.
WHY SHOULD YOU CARE WHAT HIS MOTIVATIONS ARE FOR HURTING YOU?
The entire premise of you being expected to care is offensive. And I wish more people from the helping professions understood this.
I don’t blame you for this indoctrination. The idea that we, especially as women, must soothe, understand, and forgive. Whatever the transgression, hey, he had a sadz. A feeling! Please accept this theory/subterranean motivation/astrological sign/pocket lint…
An explanation isn’t an apology. Moreover, even an apology is fairly useless without tangible recompense. An acknowledgment of wrongdoing is only a start, but Meghan, you don’t even have that. Just a bunch of lame excuses.
Let’s try an example that’s not breaking your heart.
For example, say he poured red wine all over your white sofa. And instead of apologizing, or picking up the cleaning bill, he explained “I’ve always hated white sofas. They soil so easily.” Or “My Vitamin B deficiency is really messing with my hand-eye coordination.”
You would see the bullshit in that, right? Because you value your white sofa and how dare he stain it.
Now, do your self-worth.
For the past year and a half, I have been on-again-off-again trying to reconcile with my boyfriend who began cheating on me around the time that I chose to have an abortion.
He ejaculated irresponsibly. Shame on him. He cheated on you. Shame on him. Why are you working with this?
In my memory, the flirting (with his soon to be affair partner) began before my ultimate decision. It was a factor in me not feeling confident in going through with the pregnancy and first-time motherhood.
That’s completely understandable and also traumatic. Here you wanted to be more invested with this man, but he was not on the same respect-and-cherish you page, and you had the strength to recognize that. And not leave yourself, or a child, more vulnerable to a FW.
Which shows me, you can do really hard things. I hope you’ll extend that super power to dumping him. Alas, it’s a rookie chump mistake to seek comfort from the person who hurt us. But I encourage you to find comfort elsewhere. He doesn’t have the raw materials to be a healthy partner. Exhibit A: DARVO.
He’s acting like he’s the real victim here.
In our attempts to reconcile, he states that my decision to terminate triggered abandonment feelings for him.
The trap is, you’re supposed to respond to his distress. If you leave him, it will trigger his abandonment issues! So you must keep trying!
The solution is fuck his abandonment issues. You know what says abandonment? Cheating on your pregnant girlfriend.
The trap only works if you prioritize his “issues” above your own well-being. STOP IT.
He says that he subconsciously was seeking validation and support from this woman with whom he also confides about the abortion.
Was he subconsciously screwing her? Or fully awake? The man has agency. Also, the poor moppet, was your abortion hard on HIM? Did he have to travel states with his sadz? Walk past a gauntlet of protestors holding signs of aborted feelings?
I would like to support your boyfriend by dangling him over a balcony by his ankles. (But those are just dark Chump Lady thoughts.) My point to you is:
STOP LISTENING TO THIS CRAP.
You don’t have to bless his bullshit with your attention. YOU ARE THE DECIDER. It’s not like you need a preponderance of evidence to dump him. (You have a truckload of awful.)
But, but! She can fix this and make him a good boyfriend by being sweet and understanding! If only she’s patient and kind and doesn’t scare away the timid forest creature of his abandonment issues!
It’s not your job to fix him.
Also he’s fine with who he is. Judge him by his continued behavior, which is appallingly entitled. (Did he pay for the abortion? Drive you to the doctor? Did he clean up his irresponsible ejaculation mess or was he too busy fucking his affair partner?)
There was a lot of gaslighting and deception in keeping his 4-month affair going as she was someone I also interacted with and I noticed immediately the chemistry between them.
Four months of cheating in a 1.5 year on-off relationship = nothing worth saving. Heck, I’m not even sure it qualifies as a relationship. I’m not doubting you that he presented it as one. Clearly he expects you to be all emotionally invested in his Issues. I’m saying, you don’t have to go along with his delusion.
Once you’re recognizing “a lot” of gaslighting and deception, that’s a DEALBREAKER. A smattering of gaslighting is a dealbreaker.
What are your dealbreakers?
I have broken up 5 times now and always been pulled back (maybe I am lonely)
Passive voice. Does he pull you back? Are you allowing yourself to go back? You are CHOOSING to go back. Be active with your verb construction and your life.
The cure to loneliness is improving hobbies and better company. He is neither.
Do you have any advice for me?
Is there some validity to his rationalization?
Wrong question. Who cares what excuses he gives. Is his behavior acceptable to you?
Or am I just the quintessential chump who is scared of starting over?
Don’t label it. Just start over. What’s scary is staying with a cheating FW who doesn’t give a shit about you or your reproductive health. Please dump him today.
Ahhhh ….. a Cheater cheats multiple times and gets caught multiple times (clearly a slow learner as most Cheaters get better at hiding their BS over time) and then claims that his “abandonment issues” are triggered when he faces consequences.
Meghan, please understand that this man is a f*cking clown who does not care one bit for the emotional (and other) damage that he inflicts upon you. He has demonstrated that he is a “frequent flier” as far as his cheating is concerned; this was no “one and done” isolated mistake. Please know that you deserve better than this, cut contact with him, protect and build a better future for yourself. And remember, there are worse things than being single …. the foremost of which is being in an unhealthy relationship with an ocean-going ar*ehole.
LFTT
The horrifying thing is these are the only affairs she knows about so far. Who knows what other sordid lies this guy is hiding?
Exactly. They just get better at hiding things.
I only wished I believed in one and done. I’ve only seen progression as the years went by. In my experience it goes underground but it’s never done.
2xchump,
From my perspective, “one and done” is still enough for it to be the relationship to be done. That said, I would suspect that if you found one “instance” of cheating, there will almost certainly be more that you haven’t found out about yet.
LFTT
I agree…just like myself as I waited and waited to find more proof, then more. Tracy always says…is this behavior acceptable to me.? The problem with that question is the buckets and buckets of Spackle that I threw at him so that almost EVERY KIND OF ABUSE graduated to the Acceptable level. I have no idea what to do about that. It took a miracle and my therapist telling me my cheater was going to end my life..before I ran. I hope that Tracy and all of our input can move the needle even for one lost soul…it’s all I know how to do. I’m too angry to work at a woman’s shelter or even talk to a group. I’m 2 years from D day and 1.5 years from Divorce…I hope time calms me down. I’m just so happy to be out.
I feel the same. I spackled for thirty years before I finally got out. I don’t trust myself to be in a new relationship because I don’t trust that I won’t overlook red flags. However, as I was thinking about this after I read your post, I realized that, since my divorce, I have removed two more toxic people from my life. Both friends for decades but both of whom were toxic narcs who were bleeding me dry emotionally. So it does get better! We do notice crappy behavior and we are capable of removing people from our lives. I just cut another one loose yesterday. Blocked everywhere. Progress!
Mollywobbles, I’m trying so hard to let go of obsessing about the couple friends of ours that after I described my horror story, felt they had to counsel my X, keep in contact and hold his hand. I still can’t believe it. But I must make peace. I did tell my former close for 30 years girlfriend how I could not trust her as a friend how she could update X on what I tell her. I wished I had just backed away and not said anything..as now she can blame me for everything and cutting our friendshipwas MY DOING…but I guess not beating around the bush might be the break I need and closure actually. Good bye dear friend..you were there for a reason and a season but not a lifetime
I know it’s hard, but block her. Cut her off everywhere. You don’t want flying monkeys who could help your FW further abuse you in your life. You’re mighty! You’ve got this!
30 years..trust gone…sad but the stories here are much worse! I am grateful!
“I agree…just like myself as I waited and waited to find more proof, then more. ”
Same. I became like Sherlock Holmes. Digging, digging, digging. Not sure what I was looking or. Definitely not going to get closure. I guess I was just trying to figure out what was real, and discover the extent of the betrayal. I’m not quite to Tuesday, but I do know that what I know, whether it is 1% or 99% of her actions… that was enough.
One last time. To be on duty 24 hours as a detective is exhausting. But I needed an avalanche to fall on me with all the FACTS and that just about killed me. But angels dug me out and sent me to safety. I understand how we die so easily in this avalanche…just get crushed and stop breathing. I am the most grateful for getting out in the nick of time. God was there with angels that had shovels to dig me out and drag me to safety
I did the same. I look back now and feel stupid but it had to get to the point of him talking about killing me before I realized how fucked up it was. I was angry for awhile. I’m 4.5 years out now and the anger had faded a lot, thankfully.
So sorry you went through that. I am glad you got out!
My therapist told me today to stop saying stupid and start saying ..I did all I knew how to do at that time!! I know better now and I will continue to do better. Compassion for this person, me, who did all she knew how to do, to keep together..not to lose my entire step family,step Grands, Switzerland friends and on down the line for #2, nor my babies to go back and forth between 2 homes with #1 cheater.
I’m 1.5 years out of #2 Divorce and I have learned how giving, forgiving and loving i am and was. But those traits no longer served me with a very sick person. They serve me in working at a food pantry now for under served people, it serves me taking care of a lady that has dementia, it serves me teaching little kids Bible classes..but with evil men like my 2 Xs, it turned into affairs and abuse. I no longer need that in my life ever again. There are likely many good people out there,but no one will ever be in my bed again. That ship 🚢 has sailed, thank God.
2xChump,
You’ll find that over time that get progressively more “Meh” about things. I’m now nearly 10 years out from D-Day and nearly 8 years out from our Divorce being finalised …. and the kids (I got custody) who were 11, 16 and 18 or so are now young adults of 28, 25 and 21. Over time I have come to accept that Ex-Mrs LFTT’s cheating was the least of my problems; it was the lies, the manipulation, the “financial creativity” and the outright refusal to accept responsibility for what she did and the impact that it had on the kids and I that I took much longer to deal with.
I have found that my posting here has really helped, but over time my posts have changed from being largely focussed on “How do I deal with Ex-Mrs LFTT’s latest outburst of f*ckery?” to being focussed much more on “Here are some things that I’ve learned during my journey and I hope that they help you.” That feels like “healing” to me.
I hope that you find your new future as I did.
LFTT
LFTT,
It’s funny because I’m in between needing the support and offering the support. Going through the divorce process now, but DD was nearly 5 years ago.It was long, drawn out with lots of emotional abuse and pick me dancing. I’m healing, but not quite healed. So some days, I am here for support. Others I am here hoping to offer it.
I think I will stick atround for a long time because this group and CL were by far the most helpful things I found during this hellacious process. Seeing everyone with such similar stories, and seeing how far these FWs will go? I think it helped get me out of the situation faster. I foundCL/CN a bit late in the game. Had I foundthem AT D-Day? Mabe there wouldn’t have been a longdrawn out process with pick me dancing.
Nothing hit me as ard as seeing all these stories and seeing how they all do so many of the same things. Chump after chump saying they were in RIC and then found out the FW was STILL cheating etc.
I agree, LFTT. Listen to him, please, 2xchump. He’s ahead of me on this, but I find myself less and less on here to flare up in anger about the FW XW’s scummy actions towards the family and me, and more trying to help other chumps by relating how my interactions with the FW XW might give some insight or help in what they’re dealing with.
I’m almost eight years out from D-day, and almost six years from final divorce. No contact/grey rock and building myself a new life and relationships with my kids without their mother around (for the most part) has allowed me to move forward. It still took a HELL of a long time.
Those wounds are deep. You’ve been chumped twice. I can only imagine how much tougher that is on you. Once was enough for me.
Best wishes to you and your family, 2xchump. You’ve got this.😊
LFTT,I have read your writings and I do see where you are now. This site needs healed chumps abs bleeding ones. This is the beauty of Chumplady…we are all here. My first cheater left me with a newborn & 6 year old so I had 18 years of every other weekend visits going across state lines. So I know that long term horror. Now my children are 35 and 42. Productive but sadly impacted by falsehoods and his story. My daughter speaks in a baby voice to her dad and my son is afraid of him and at 42 does all his dad tells him to do. I am now recovering from #2. I have never felt more at peace and free. This site is like EMDR for me, retesting my sad story until it will be just a story and no longer paralyzing me in my daily activities. I am getting there. I feel super good active happy and engaged in life. I am grateful for all the people who share their journey and I will get to Meh again soon! Still in therapy and loving EMDR and CBT. The best to you LFTT.you have come a very long way. Thank you for your contribution.
I too am still here in recovery for the most part- looking forward to meh and Tuesday but not there. Than you for sharing your story and that goes to everyone here. I am grateful for this site. I am starting my morning with it today, in hopes that it will help quell all the self blame.
When you said…starting my morning..I read starting my mourning…2 different words because for sure I am mourning all I lost and all I tried with all my strength to hold on to..what I THOUGHT was love, was not, it was abuse of my intimate self. I was told he was a “normal male”, and I wanted to believe I was the abnormal one…so I could stay. So I am mourning that he hurt me and I allowed it…for years. But now I know so I am looking for me, which does come in drizzled, so I know it exists! And Tuesday comes more often..so I know that exists too. Tracy knows, she and you are my mentors. Let’s hold on to truth and incinerate the lies so truth gets the power.
“This site is like EMDR for me, retesting my sad story until it will be just a story and no longer paralyzing me in my daily activities.”
Well said. I don’t know if you meant to write retesting or retelling, but both are true for me. For example, at first I wrote that he hit me, then assaulted me, then knocked me to the ground. It took a number of repetitions here before I was willing to write here that he beat me unconscious in front of tween.
There are things I still hold back here, and I recently realized while reading others’ stories and retelling my own that I’m still reluctant to acknowledge, both here and to myself, some of his actions and all the damage he did to us. Some of that is to practice the privacy of other family members, some is avoiding things I’d rather not think about, and some is shame for what he did, even though I know I’m not at fault. I think that with time I will be both more concise and also tell more. Some acts can be summed up in a few words.
I’m so glad to those who have healed and still come back to share. Your insights–and your meh–are invaluable.
Goodfriend, I have a similar thing about the violence. I keep having to rewrite it to get it right. I am still trying to understand it for what it was- a rape, more sexual assaults and sexual humiliations..as opposed to the stories I told myself- it was the one time (ti was not)- he was young- I should’t have forgiven him- etc..what was I thinking- all the shame is still on my side. Because I stayed…it is time for shame to change sides. I am 3 and 1/2 years without reliving the abuse (I did for 7 yers? After he left me)…but I am free. And Intel that to myself and to my friends.And I am as “happy” as I can be about that. Not meh, but I know that I am better off without his cruelty or the cruelty of the other men I let in after he left.
Thank you.
“I keep having to rewrite it to get it right. I am still trying to understand it for what it was-“
Exactly.
Some of my reluctance stems from fear that he will find me here and retaliate. I’m more comfortable posting facts for which I have hard evidence.
For me it’s the shame which is elaborate.
As a chump of a certain age, I was raised on misogynistic propaganda.
Nearly EVERY television show had an episode where the female lead was the victim of unwanted attention. The unvarying script showed her escaping without actually saying “no” and making sure her husband didn’t learn of the incident.
We were trained to put the feelings and egos of men ahead of our own safety.
Take back your power. Dump him.
Same here.
Yes, I have advice for you. Join a meeting, you are just as addicted. 5 break ups, you feel for him…but do you feel for you??
ACA; meetings any time of day; regain your self worth and self esteem before he destroys you: https://adultchildren.org/meeting-search/
Thank you. I will check this out!
This helps as I’m in Alanon and ACA ….but alanon gives you ALOT of wiggle room to stay. It did give me myself back and my Worth so it’s a first step. ACA gets the roots. Private therapy with a WISE person helped Mr too, but I had several therapists that liked my charming abuser and kept me drinking the Kool aide
Yes my current therapist, has encouraged me to be open to reconciliation. It has been confusing.
oh no. I called it abuse enhancement. I think get away from that one.
Graceymeg, just to repeat what others have said here: please, please find another therapist. (And ideally find one who makes it clear from the outset that she sees that this relationship is hurting you and is not worth preserving.) I’m sorry to say this, but your therapist sounds just incompetent. I’ve been there, trying to sort things out when I was being encouraged by a (highly trained and respected) therapist to work on reconciliation with someone who gave me nothing to work with. I don’t understand how therapists can often give such terrible advice in these situations, but the sad fact is that they often do.
No matter how many “good things” your boyfriend may seem to bring to the relationship, he is simply not a person of good character. Staying with him will slowly drain the life force out of you. I’m sorry to put it this starkly. Please find the support you need to get away from this person for good.
Sending hugs.
Thank you. I think she is biased toward seeing me married with a child and that is somehow the most important thing. Ugh. I guess part of me has also been conditioned to want that, but it wouldn’t be right if I were terribly unhappy. Yes, I need a new therapist.
Ah, I can see her reasoning, but it is really wrongheaded, even naive.
Speaking from my own experience, in my mid-thirties I stayed with a husband who clearly didn’t treat me well, and I just spackled away because it was so hard for me personally to part with the idea of having a child. But 6 months after our daughter was born, and for 6 years thereafter, he had an affair and subjected me to horrible contempt and gaslighting. (Then the divorce process was traumatically stressful and scary, because he was furious at me for withdrawing cake and did everything he could to damage me, short of physical abuse. And thereafter I had to continue raising a child with this incredibly difficult ex, until she left for college.) I found it very hard to recover from this protracted abuse; psychologically, it changes you.
With other chumps, I really applaud you for writing CL as you strive for clarity about your situation. Truly, best of luck to you!
OMGosh Gracey….I would not continue with that therapist.
I was a psych major and the first thing I learned in school is that not everyone in the field is put together right. One of my professors would be in big trouble today around his conduct with female students back in 1983.
A therapist suggesting reconciliation as an option in your circumstances would be a dealbreaker for me.
Not every therapist is a good one.
In me experience, a lot of therapists need therapy themselves. The field seems to attract the disordered. It’d be better if they received treatment instead of thinking they’re qualified to practice!
Excuse me, what!? I say this with love, you need a new therapist, STAT.
Got it. Thanks for chiming in. You’re right
Ask any future therapist if:
1. They believe infidelity is abuse;
2. If they have a trauma-based modality approach to therapy; and
3. If they have had any exposure to narcissists and the cycle of narcissistic abuse.
They need to say yes to all 3 questions to be able to assist you optimally for your recovery
Then and only then proceed, with caution, always watching for red flags and be ready to bail at any time.
Your therapist is getting paid to keep you going in abuse. I had one that normalized my husband’s sex addiction and his inappropriate behavior with my daughter. Many therapists don’t know what they are doing. I had another one that focused on my poor husband’s child hood trauma. It is a horrible way to go, especially couples therapy. Looking back I see how misled I was listening to them because I wanted to save my marriage more than I cared about me and my abuse tolerance. I would not go back to where you.are now for all the money in the work. It’s a horror movie. But perhaps that is where you are now. I’m sorry..that’s all I can say.
Your therapist doesn’t recognize cheating is abuse. This is confusing at best and victim blaming at worst. Please find another therapist who does trauma informed therapy.
And further, a trauma-informed therapist is different from a trauma therapist….
Here’s a good video. Dr Eilers is awesome and I listen to him in between sessions with my IRL therapist.
https://youtu.be/KXsUTP0ZqwY?si=lIkjECMGH2QQ9uI9
Why would your therapist tell you to be open to reconciliation with someone who repeatedly hurts you? A BOYFRIEND, no less. Someone you don’t share any legal or financial obligations with. This is truly the easiest this relationship will ever be, and it already sucks!
I can’t help but think your therapist has a hidden agenda.
I recently found out the therapist I saw in my teens has been stripped of her license in recent years and has multiple complaints about her online. Apparently she’s a cheater and had affairs with the husbands of several patients.
Not saying that’s your situation, but all therapists aren’t created equal and some are truly heinous. I am very suspicious of a so-called professional who thinks you owe 2nd (3rd, 10th) chances to some asshole who is abusing you and putting your health at risk.
I got lucky my male phd therapist said hes a narcissist. Encouraged me to leave. Phd therapists who know about narcs are worth their weight in gold.
Maybe I will look for that credential. Thank you
I got lucky too, also courtesy of a therapist with a doctorate (PsyD). She was the perfect combo of highly educated AND empathetic, with a specialty in trauma so she understood how abusers work.
My ex claimed that I didn’t pay enough attention to him. I often pushed away the kids, never did things with friends if he was at home, and centered everything around his wants and needs. That went on for decades.
He said he felt lonely and abandoned after he left. Yes, that happens when you pack up your car and drive away to find yourself in another state. I’ll add that he was in his 60’s, so being a lost soul and making poor choices was very much on him. He wasn’t a teenager with little life experience. Thankfully, I got that I couldn’t be responsible from then on.
Then he seemed shocked when I refused to reconcile after a year, as if husbands can wander off, spending down the family assets with zero accountability. He expected me to beg him to take me back. Ah, no.
So he called to say he wanted a divorce. I agreed. He claimed to be heartbroken.
What did you expect, dude?
The audacity. I hope you got those stolen funds back in the divorce.
Yes, most of it. I was ready to move on, and a trial to get the last bit would have cost quite a bit more and delayed everything. In the scheme of things, I was A-OK.
Why did I stay for his validation? The horror of staying was overshadowed by the absolute frozen fear of the unknown of feeling rejected and realizing I was totally unloved by a man I imagined loved me. I stayed too long for the illusion. Any little crumb he gave me as a reason for his abuse, kept me in the cycle. It is a mind vacuum of all my senses. His needs, his Validation each planted excuse was just one of the millions of ways I was entrapped.. it is all lies coming from the mouth of a liar. Please get out of the dryer cycle. It is beautiful once you see the truth.
How long did it take you to feel grounded in yourself? How long do you have to tough it out before the fog starts to clear?
Everyone is very, very different, but I felt meh when the judge finally signed off.
I think it was around four years after my ex took off before I felt truly, truly myself again. I had several decades with the jerk and had to come back around to trusting myself and knowing how to set boundaries with people.
It certainly helped that my kids were in college, so no custody issues. I haven’t heard from the jerk in over two years now.
I agree with 2X Chump that no contact is the only way to do it. I think of it this way: you’ve been hit hard in the stomach and are trying to recover, but as you are curled up in a fetal position on the floor trying to breath your FW comes at you and kicks at your back. How are you supposed to heal your front when you are under attack from behind? Going no contact gives your FW zero opportunities to continue the attack. In my case I was over 3 years out from D-Day before I found Chump Lady, and I was still so confused about what was going on with FW. Graceymeg if you keep reading here you will find stories so similar to yours that you will think you are in The Twilight Zone. Cheaters are all alike, and you can educate yourself about the games that they play by reading the old columns and especially the comments. Then you will be able to see clearly what is going on, and can make informed decisions about your life. How long will it take? That varies by individual, but knowing what you are dealing with will give you a flying start.
Graceymeg, remember I’ve had 2 full blown cheaters..both my marriages. So it will take me longer due to reopening old wounds added on top of brand new ones. I must say that zero contact as much as is humanly possible is the ONLY ONLY ONLY way to heal more quickly. It is an Acute addiction to a sick person. You will go through withdrawal and possible crave that attachment for a long time. I am Grey Rock still with the father of my adult children 35 years out. That keeps me safe emotionally. I am zero contact ( 2 years now)with my X husband of 32 years. That has helped me tremendously. I cannot speak to him or be in the same area as he is. So I feel so grateful when he is no longer part of my life at all. It took me many years with #1 as we had 2 children and they went back and forth for 18 years. So I had to stay in contact. But #2 ..I had insisted on a vasectomy before we married so no connection with him via children AMEN!!!I’m doing very well 1.5 years after the divorce…but therapy is ongoing to heal. It’s hard work to get these creeps out of my tender mind and put them in the past. But I’m determined. So it is difficult and different with each cheater. Keep going on with your healing and don’t look back except with compassion for you and recognizing you had a very disturbed person in your life. Detox how you can
Give him the time to figure out his “abandonment” issues by leaving him, that will give him the sadz he can use to find another person or therapist to validate him.
Yes, exactly. And that type of man will immediately find someone else, a new source of supply.
100%
1. Try therapy to figure out why you’re twisting & contorting yourself to fit into this guy’s life.
2. Join a sister hood group that does something you’re interested in.
3. Read about abusive relationships – ya you’re in one.
4. If he’s has abandonment issues, it’s on him to sort it out. It’s not on you to.
5. “Keep it simple, stupid”. The guy wants to act single when he wants, but also have you around for the couple benefits when he wants. You should be pissed & enraged by this!! If you’re not, go back down the list again.
I should be angry… For some reason it’s hard to access. I got some work to do for sure
Some people have difficulty accessing anger due to temperament or cultural training but I also know typical abusers engage in a ton of brainwashing punishment or rewards to train victims not to get angry and to fear the consequences of getting angry. Abusers might attempt “influence by association” such as expressing contempt towards some “angry woman” they know or their “angry ex” or remarking on some “angry woman” on television or a public figure. It’s meant to set up a kind of “head on a pike” showing what happens to those bad, bad women– they get hated on by men.
Or some will hintingly compliment various women for their passive, compliant, squishy, childlike, angerless, doormat-y demeanor and behavior in an attempt to set off a pick-me competition where their partner attempts to live up to the positive model. During conflict they may also attack partners for being “so angry” or having problems with anger, etc. Or they may simply go ape and become terrifying if a victim expresses any note of anger.
It’s basically Pavlovian operant conditioning. But to quote someone I worked with, “Emotions are like colors in a paintbox, neither good nor bad. It only matters what picture you paint with them.” If anger harms the innocent– bad picture. If it liberates a repressed population or gets you free from an abuser– good picture.
Ye! But you know you should be and that is that start! It takes a while. you are in the right place.
What starts shitty does not get better.
My post-DDay dealbreaker is DECEPTION.
Little lies, big lies. Any lies.
Someone who deceives you is a poor choice for a life partner. There is no trust and safety, the two essential characteristics of a healthy emotionally mature relationship. Without them you do not have a relationship. You have an entanglement. (I got that gem from my local women’s shelter when participating in a class for women exiting abusive relationships.)
When choosing the most important person in your life, choose someone with great qualifications. Cheaters and side pieces prove with their behavior they are unqualified for healthy relationships. Let them consort with each other.
You are getting the memo on this guy. Read it and heed it.
I also recommend a good therapist…a suggestion I make because of my own very positive experience with the ones that have helped me.
Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood is an oldie but a goodie. Worth checking out.
He. Does. Not. Care. That. He. Hurts. You.
That is NOT love.
❤️
Seconding this, great book.
It’s worse than that, he actually hates her. Meghan, I wouldn’t treat a stranger on the street the way your boyfriend treats you, let alone someone I claimed to love.
He keeps coming back because you’re USEFUL, not because he loves you. Notice how he keeps telling you he wants validation? In other words, if he can’t get it from you in any given moment, he’ll get it from another woman. That’s not love, that’s parasitism.
This guy is not the one. Please leave him before he ruins your life.
Succinctly well stated Cam.
OP is in the delulu with this guy.
Feel like her therapist steered her the wrong way too.
By the way, I’m new here. What is OP for?
OP -shorthand for original poster or LW – letter writer
Hope you are feeling strong and ready to start your new chapter ❤️
Thanks for your frank comment. I think unfortunately it is true that I am useful. I have a good job and am stable and can provide the look of a happy couple which he wants.
I have several dear, post-divorce friends who have told me that they don’t get why my ex would abandon someone like me. They like to say that I have all of the long-term partner attributes.
Well, I guess I did, but it didn’t matter. He still took off for “greener” pastures.
Like seriously, I don’t even know you and I was outraged on your behalf reading your story. This guy keeps stabbing you in the back, blames you for his betrayals, and then confides YOUR private relationship and medical information to this floozy? He’s scum.
He’s making excuses when he talks about “validation.” You’re not his therapist! The reasons for his betrayal don’t matter, the fact is he did it anyway. The cheek of him, to mistreat you and expect your sympathy for it. What he’s saying is he thinks he has the right to mistreat you because his needs trump yours. That’s so selfish and shocking.
This relationship sounds exhausting. You’ve only been seeing this loser for a year and it sounds like he’s brought nothing to your life but pain. You’re doing yourself a huge favor to get out now, before he wastes more of your time or ruins your mental health, gives you STIs, or gets you pregnant again and convinces you to keep it. God forbid you ever have to co-parent with this manchild. He can’t even keep his dick in his pants, don’t expect him to pay child support or be an active father.
LOL I’m getting mad again writing this. This guy sucks so much.
You have so much to offer the right person, and the right person will be grateful they met you. This guy is trash and doesn’t deserve you.
Truth!
Tracy… I just love how you don’t sugar coat things bc that is critical.. at least it was in my experience. I needed the brutal honesty and I hope Meghan is listening and takes it to heart. We can take this honest advice and reframing and take our power back.
To Meghan.. Just an armchair psychologist at the same time having the whole “been there;done that: badge lol.. sounds like there’s possibly a bit of trauma bonding is going on. The whole situation is traumatizing… having an abortion, finding out you’re a chump… with someone who *knew* you. Everytime he says it triggered him blah blah.. he’s using *your* trauma against you which is why you cave.. you *get* it’s traumatizing.. problem is.. he’s not authentic in his statements (remember .. fw’s lie .. look at how much he lied to conduct his affair) and the lies are just good enough to keep you hooked. It’s a vicious circle that keeps sucking you in… step out of it. Sounds hard but you can and that’s why no contact is a real and necessary skill in these moments. I was trauma bonded to the ex fw and left/went back 3 times… I get it.
What I do know is it is possible to step out of it… take that step Meghan… the peace us priceless.
Thank you. It is embarrassing to actually look and realize that I’ve gone back 5 times. In the past I tried to keep participating in our shared hobby (also where we met). I think I have to give that up and really go no contact. That sucks, but the longer I stay in this merry go round, the worse I feel.
most of us have been there… no contact was absolutely the way I stayed out after going back time after time and choosing to stay for whatever reason.. bc I felt sorry for him.. bc *I* was committed and loyal.. bc I wanted to believe his lies were truth bc I was a good person. all good things but wasted on the wrong person. I started pouring that energy into *me*. I also have a daughter who is an adult and I was able to think about how I would speak to her if she was in my situation. I then spoke those words to myself… so whether you have a child or a friend or relative.. think about how you would speak to them and talk to yourself that way. For me, it took years to get to level of stuck that I was so I had to think long term… it did take me time to plan so I landed safely… that was the hard part but we’ve survived hard … you can do this graceymeg… you have the whole Chump Nation behind you. Sending gentle hugs and love for you… you deserve it and so much more!
Yes, I am committed to no contact. That was always my downfall in previous break-ups, believing that we could just catch up for a coffee. So pathetic that I would even want to. But not this time.
Do not be embarrassed. The shame is what kept me staying, We live in a culture as tracy and everyone here knows, that does not support people taking care of themselves and always pushes is to me “kind” and “forgiving”. I am working a thing right now called the great unforgiving. hold your head up. I struggle with shame so much from staying. It takes a while as Tracy says to get to Tuesday, or to be meh, and I am not there yet either, but coming here helps. There is no shame on you, the shame is on. him.
Thanks… The great unforgiving sounds intriguing!
I just recently heard something about forgiveness that radically changed how I looked at these things. Like I judge and shame myself mercilessly which I think I’m hearing from you as well.. I think a lot of us do it.
So I heard someone define forgiveness as giving up the right to hurt someone back that hurt me/you. When I thought about all the times I self-sabotaged.. stayed till I hurt… just the way I even think about myself… if I turn that on myself.. give up the right to hurt myself back… whoooaaaaa!!! a total paradigm shift. I hope that helps you in some way.
1.5 years of relationship and you have already gone back 5 times? This alone says this is a situationship. It is no relationship to bring a child into. Don’t believe his hoovers either. This dude has toxic narcissist written all over him. Set yourself free and don’t look back! ❤️🩹
Yes, thank you. It really would be selfish and irresponsible to try and get my own motherhood dream out of this mess. I have really been delusional. I have to embrace being a single and childless woman and make my life interesting and rich. Right now it feels hard, but I know I can get there
Graceymeg: come over to the Chump Lady reddit forum which is private (members only) and we can talk more. If you don’t already have an account you can sign up for reddit and then direct request the mods to approve you. We have a supportive crew on there 24-7 and many of our reddit chumps post here on the blog too. Also, if you want to chat with other chumps in real time there is a live chat. Helpful when you feel the urge to break no contact!! 😆
Many chumps have had to let the motherhood dream go, due to the fuckwittery of these kinds of people. We know what you’re going through. But it will — in time — become crytsal clear to you the bullet that you dodged by not having this FW’s child.
You have found this community at a fortunate time before you were locked to nearly two decades with a man such as this. Hope to see you over there soon! ❤️
I have applied to join. Thanks for the tip. Yes, two decades of this anxiety and self doubt would not be fun. Thanks for the support.
Graceymeg, I’m cheering you on! You sound like a lovely person, and you deserve (as we all do) a life of mental freedom and peace! It sounds like you’re putting yourself on the path to get there, even if it means gritting your teeth and tolerating some loneliness as you step off the “merry go round.” Truly sending hugs.
I appreciate it so much. It’s only been two days, but remarkably I feel pretty good so far, maybe it’s relief.
Excellent! Glad to hear it.
Meghan, he tells this woman he is fucking something incredibly personal and private like your abortion and you actually wonder if you should see it from his perspective? 🤯
I can pretty much guarantee you there were no “abandonment issues” triggered. It’s likely not his first rodeo, either. It’s just a handy excuse. *You* went through the abortion, not him, and you made a wise choice by not breeding with a POS like him. It triggered nothing in him. He was already a cheater and probably already cheating. Fuckwits will grasp onto anything to use as an excuse. From “you served bagged salad” to “you triggered my long buried abandonment issues by having an abortion” it is all the same worthless pap. He won’t stop cheating. He will always give himself excuses; a hangnail, heavy traffic, the state of the union, his boss giving him a hard time, a rainy Monday, whatever. Proceed to dumping him forthwith and forever.
Thank you!I appreciate the straight talk
Well, I’ll say what just jumped out at me after one read. He isn’t using protection with you, he doesn’t care about preventing pregnancy or avoiding disease. So, why would you ever think he’s using it with anyone else? A future with him can involve women showing up with other children or you getting a disease, multiple diseases most likely. Even if he just brings you home infections that are curable, it’s still going to be a bunch of pain and you might end up infertile from it. You might end up with cancer from it. With all due respect, stop having sex with men like this. It will hurt you as a woman more than it hurts them. I don’t care if that doesn’t sound fair, it is reality. Sexually active men who care nothing about sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy are dangerous to women and should be completely avoided. You shouldn’t even give this guy the time of day.
Second huge red flag is that he “confides” YOUR personal information to women he’s screwing. This fun little trait of my ex’s is what turned every person I knew (except for 2) against me. This will never end. He will test every woman you ever now or befriend to see if she’s receptive and then tell her all about you. If you aren’t interesting enough, he will make things up to spice up the story. You will start to wonder why women don’t seem to like you. You’ll wonder about dirty looks and strange passive aggressive comments from his coworkers or sometimes even just “random” women you see in a grocery store. Maybe you’ll get nasty anonymous phone calls or bizarre insulting messages on social media. He’ll have a whole network of fuck buddies who HATE you and they’ll tell the made up stories to ALL of their friends to make them hate you too. You might end up being ostracized by an entire community because he “needed someone to talk to!” and he only likes to talks to women he wants to stick his dick into. That’s not his fault though right? He needs validation! If he gets you attacked or smeared, why should he care? He can just move on to one of his other women. It’s cruel to say but once again, it’s reality.
So, that’s the future with him. Having doctors tell you that you need to learn to wipe yourself better because how else could you possibly be getting all these infections?! learning to smile when a pregnant woman shows up at YOUR door demanding money, and being completely surrounded by a group of people who secretly hate you and want to sabotage everything in your life.
If that sounds good to you, by all means stay with him. But do it with your eyes wide open, knowing this is your future. That’s how life plays out with a man like that.
Well put, Katiepig. Yes, I have to relinquish control of the story he will sell to vilify me. I am sure you are right as to how he can spin it all to his advantage. I am surely the crazy bitch who hurt him so.
Good call. A smear campaign– whether using sensitive secrets or just fabricated nonsense but especially when there’s a note of truth– or the preemptive threat of a smear campaign is coercive control.
excellent point re coercive control… just beginning to wrap my head around this and so glad you brought it up bc… well it’s true.. he is using coercive control for sure… he had no right to expose this highly personal information to a ho-stress… the audacity!
This is how one abuser kept me under his thumb in my 20s. I only escaped when I left our entire community of friends, didn’t look back, and didn’t care what he was telling people about me. It pissed him off something awful because he lost his most effective weapon against me, and he knew it.
I think the smear coercion (DARVO isn’t just shaming: it’s also a threat of what they’ll tell others if you get out of line) can be highly effective if the target has something serious at stake like career, custody of children, threat of legal punishment or loss of immigration status or loss of family and important relationships, especially if there’s any economic dependence (as is true for a lot of mothers). I think all abusers at least attempt the “Dickensian social ruin gambit.” Whether it works or not depends on the resources and mobility of the victim.
You happened to be willing to ditch your entire social set which is rather uncommon and brave. You’re like some rugged individualist cowboy character willing to strike it out alone against the bandits and rattlesnakes. Otherwise, the threat of social isolation and having no safety net can be absolutely terrifying for most people, especially in the throes of trauma.
Oh believe me, it was terrifying for me.
It was a gamble, and it paid off because I was young and didn’t have any legal or financial connections to the abuser.
But leaving was still traumatic, partly because these people never tried to defend me from the abuser and were happy to believe his horrible accusations. It was hard to realize they were never my friends.
In hindsight though, I’m so glad I left and cut my losses when I did. These people were scum and a waste of time.
It’s kind of equivalent to gang rape in an emotional sense to discover no one in a social context supports victims against perpetrators. It’s its own kind of traumatic experience. We’re communal animals and it goes against every hardwired, lizard brain instinct to risk alienation and rejection by the tribe or troop. Back in our monkey and caveman days, that spelled certain death.
So it’s even more impressive that you felt the fear and did it anyway.
This is an extreme analogy but one that I have used! The P Diddy case-it makes me think of how my ex liked to use his entire family to gang up on me and emotionally humiliate me. I cut them out of my life before I cut him out.
Bet it was like an exorcism. 😮
I felt I had no choice because as I had stopped caring, they started after my 7 year old son- their own grandchild, and the aunts and uncle. But the problem was, I should have gotten rid of him. Anyway, I did my best. It’s easy to tell other people to forgive themselves for staying, ,but shame is still my close partner.
Consider the possibility that the very reason you now feel ashamed not to have left sooner– the fact that this toxic clan eventually turned their aggression on your child– was also one of the reasons you may have felt entrapped: because you were dealing with people capable of harming a child. Also consider that whatever aggression you saw openly manifest was also what your gut instincts had accurately picked up on all along as a potential risk. But until that aggression openly manifested, you would have had no idea how serious the threat was, how it might manifest, etc.
I think in those circumstances it’s natural to err on the side of caution.
The woman who founded the advocacy network I worked for compared it to being trapped in a room barefoot with an unidentified species of toxic frog (she was originally from a country that had toxic frogs) that you once saw hop under the bed out of the corner of your eye. You glimpsed just enough to know that the thing moves like lighting and, being yellow, belongs to one of the poisonous species but you don’t know exactly how dangerous or aggressive, whether any contact would immediately kill you or if it would just cause massive swelling and you’d at least have time to seek medical help. All you know is that, for some reason, the thing doesn’t want you to escape. You can hear it chirp aggressively every time you make the slightest move to creep away. And furthermore, there seems to be more than one chirp so there could be a whole crew of these critters lurking around. There’s no broom or shoe nearby to even swat at them with so you camp crouched on a stool in the middle of the room to see if you’ll glimpse it again to better assess the risk of trying to run for the door. If it has stripes, it’s a Guangdong frog and you’d probably survive. No stripes would mean a poison dart frog and you’d die in a minute. Oh, and you’re carrying a baby in your arms. So whether you get poisoned and fall down instantly dead on top of the baby or the baby falls and is poisoned, this has just massively upped the stakes and increased your caution.
Now add a bunch of people yelling at you that it’s your fault for moving next door to an exotic pet shop and another group yelling that there is no frog or the frog isn’t yellow and you’re crazy– and that about sums up the conundrum of abuse.
If later you find out the frog was just a little Cambodian Guangdong and you likely could have gotten yourself and your child out of the room with just a bit of swelling and nausea, it could be easy to smack yourself in the head over it and feel stupid. But that would be to forget that you had no idea what breed you were dealing with until the moment you did.
It also serves as creating a chilling effect on any other woman who has mot been cheated on (yet) but who might be brave enough to dump not just the cheater perpetrator but the social group where this “group think” rules. It keeps ALL the women in that group in line.
I was like Cam above. I went (had to go really) no contact with my entire social network, due to cheater going scorched earth on me with a fabricated smear campaign.
Now all the men side eye me whenever they see me while the women “blank” me (the good old ‘cut direct’ in Jane Austen. 😂💯
In a sense like targeting / threatening a whistleblower
See “The Insider” with Russell Crowe for a filmic example of how this works
I wish there was a better expression than “influence by association” for that heads-on-pikes thing that abusers and abuse apologists do to pillory victims who speak out/stand up and make examples of them to warn other women to stay in line. In any event I have zero respect for the bystanders who too easily “fall in line” and turn against victims because I never did in those situations even when I had a lot to lose.
I think I’ve watched The Insider about once a year since it came out. The Whistleblower– a film about the involvement of UN workers in violent sex trafficking in Bosnia– also has a similar theme though is far more painful to watch. But those films jibe with my experience reporting workplace harassment or standing up for others in the same boat. I did have some phenomenal allies but workplaces typically divide into camps over this sort of thing. I remember the side eye– and worse. I experienced so much bullying after reporting stalking by a coworker that police had to threaten the flying monkeys with witness tampering charges.
I’ve definitely experienced that “cut direct” from Vichy women in those circumstances as well but when you actually prosecute a perp, they do more of a rabbit-in-the-headlights stare which is actually kind of hilarious– like they think you have magical witchy evil powers or something– #MeTooSpooky lol.
I don’t believe hell exists but, if it did, I think people like that belong in it. They tend to lead hellish lives in any case so the punishment seems to be built right in.
Oh yes the Vichy women! Gah!
I find this one of the most disappointing (infuriating?) aspects of the cheating tsunami. Learning about the existence of these kinds of women blew my mind. Like, it was all completely hidden and covert until the cheating “issue” became knowledge to this wide circle. Then, suddenly I was totally isolated. They were ALL on cheater’s side. How? Why? WTF? I could not understand what was happening and what was wrong with these people. Had not found Chump Lady and was drowning in the trauma and gaslighting. The Vichys were nearly the nail in the proverbial coffin for me.
But I fought back. I triumphed. My post-divorce glow up has been the sweetest revenge. I flipped that script right back on them all and now they are the ones who have the rabbit-in-the-headlights look.
“If I see you and I don’t speak that means I don’t fuck with you” ~ Bodak Yellow, Cardi B
Speaking of Vichy women or patriarchal dick-suckers, as one sociologist liked to put it, “male directed women,” you might get a kick out of these research findings. Apparently those suck-uppy women who throw other women and whistle-blowers under the bus for daring to break rigid gender norms and who try to sell themselves as hyperfeminine passive empathic princesses are more likely to be hell on wheels to men too. But I suspect further investigation would probably find this type of woman to reserve most of their awfulness for men who “fail” to be sufficiently douchy and knuckle dragging– in other words, they might be more abusive to positively masculine men and non-abusive good providers.
Anyway, imagine if rigid exaggerated gender norms and sexism/internalized misogyny and anti-feminism turned out to be common denominators in both male cheating and she-cheating. Lying, manipulation and deception to obtain sex are included among coercive strategies in the study so cheating could fit within the definition of coercion.
https://www.academia.edu/16623685/Sexual_Coercion_in_Men_and_Women_Similar_Behaviors_Different_Predictors?email_work_card=thumbnail
Russell and Oswald (2001) found that a ludic lovestyle, described as an emotionally uninvolved and manipulative approach to intimate relationships, predicted sexual coercion in their sample of college women. Contrary to their hypotheses, highly feminine attitudes, captured by descriptors such as ‘‘emotional,’’ ‘‘gentle,’’ and ‘‘aware of feelings of others,’’ best characterized sexually coercive women, whereas highly masculine attitudes, captured by descriptors such as ‘‘independent,’’ ‘‘competitive,’’ and ‘‘superior,’’ best characterized non-coercive women. Also, although Shea (1998) found that coercive women were aroused by the idea of dominating a man in a hypothetical rape scenario, coercive women in Russell and Oswald’s sample were not found to be higher in social dominance than non-coercive women.
The abstract of the Russell and Oswald study cited above:
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2002-12296-007
Manipulation and force as sexual coercion tactics: conceptual and empirical differences
Tests whether theoretical constructs typically associated with male perpetrators of sexual coercion are predictive of women who perpetrate sexual coercion. A questionnaire that contained measures of sexual experience, social dominance, ambivalent sexism, sex roles, attitudes toward sexual harassment, and attitudes toward intimate relationships using J. A. Lee’s (1973) typology of lovestyles was administered to a sample of heterosexual female undergraduates. 18% of women reported engaging in sexually coercive behaviors. Coercive women exhibited higher tolerance of sexual harassment, and were significantly higher in femininity than noncoercive women. Coercive women were also found to embrace a ludic lovestyle (i.e., a manipulative, game-playing approach toward love) significantly more than noncoercive women, while pragma (a logical approach toward love) was negatively associated with coercion.
Fascinating! Thanks for this rabbit hole HOAC. But this had me a but shook: “ludic lovestyle” — so this is what it is! This is a whole new concept (to me at least) but it fits the cheating lifestyle perfectly. Wow wow wow this is epic
Isn’t that fun? “Ludic” sounds like what it is.
Plus I love a nice unifying theory and this is “unifying” in two ways– the “sewing everything together” way and the Kumbaya way because it shows that, to protect themselves, both women and men need to look out for the same cluster of red flags in potential sexual partners (adherence to rigid gender norms, sexism,”rape myth acceptance”). We’re all fighting the same thing.
It would seem pretty counterintuitive to most people that the “tradwife” types hawking hyperfemininity and dissing feminism are statistically the most likely to be sexually aggressive and coercive to men. But it makes sense to me because of dealing with the Vichy bystanders to sexual harassment we were talking about. Man did that type hate feminists. They might sometimes give lip service to feminism if it served some agenda but, bottom line, this type would cast any woman standing up for herself as a “crazy butch man-hater.” Then these were also the same women who would show contempt for men who were “too nice” or weren’t useful.
Because of many unpleasant brushes with women like this, I have a suspicion that followup studies might find they’re also the most likely to a) mate poach and b) fabricate false charges against chumped partners as a form of post-separation abuse– basically all the cringy things that some women do that feminists would like to disown because they’re embarrassing to all women and also get weaponized by anti-feminists to tar all women. So how hilarious if the behavior is coming from Vichy anti-feminists?
The unifying theory is 🙌🏼🎯
Have even had a few experiences that illustrated this exactly. This is the perfect red flag lens!
Thank you, that’s very kind of you and means a lot to hear.
Credit where credit is due as they say! You may not have had children to keep you hostage but merely being young and inexperienced can make people more vulnerable to coercive tactics like that.
I believe in giving credit for bravery, especially for anyone who’s been victimized and probably hears mostly victim-blaming tripe casting them as quasi-massochistic doormats from rando bystanders and the media which typically ignore all the many different sociopolitical and real “bars” on the “cage” holding victims prisoner to abuse.
Did you listen to the podcast interview CL did with Dr. Emma Katz? You’ll love the bit where Dr. Katz says that the typical patronizing view of victims as naturally weak is “rubbish.”
He says that he subconsciously was seeking validation and support from this woman with whom he also confides about the abortion…
…There was a lot of gaslighting and deception in keeping his 4-month affair going as she was someone I also interacted with
“Subconsciously” and “a lot of gaslighting and deception” are mutually exclusive. He knew exactly what he was doing for more than four months, and you have only his word that it’s over.
I am guessing that you did NOT give him your consent to discuss your abortion, which is legally considered your private medical history, with this woman. You know her, she knows you, and chances are she also knows other people in your work or social circle. A woman who cheats with a partnered man likely lacks the ethical boundaries to keep secrets. If you don’t want your abortion discussed, perhaps Chump Nation or a lawyer can advise you on how to keep this from spreading further. If you all work together, it may be an HR matter.
Meghan, you asked, “Is there any validity to his rationalization?” NO. Please note that he is using his supposed FEARS of abandonment to justify his ACTIONS to repeatedly abandon you when you needed him. If anyone should understand abandonment, it would be someone who fears it, for whatever reason.
Read the book and search the columns for Grey Rock and No Contact. Stop listening to him. Get angry. And take back your life.
Well we don’t work together but shared a hobby. I did reach out to the affair partner and she claimed to have kept the information private, but I believe she shared with some people for her own support. In any case, I am going to take a break from that hobby and will try to focus on new communities.
I think you’re being a bit too generous to the affair partner. I suspect she told her friends excrutiatingly sensitively personal information about you as a way to demonize you and therefore rationalize her own unethical behavior on the grounds she was just comforting this poor guy who’d been betrayed by his heartless, baby-killing partner. So in a sense, yes, she was seeking “support” but not necessarily on honest terms.
One of the serious risks of being an OW is losing friends, especially women friends who will quite reasonably fear their own partners being poached. Statistical research supports those fears as reasonable if you read studies on the association between “mate poaching” and dark triad traits, particularly psychopathy. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886924001272
Among the many important bits of protective wisdom that going through the chump experience can teach people is never to trust anyone who would knowingly get involved with a married or committed person. It has nothing to do with “slut-shaming” but is more about the risk they’re not just unethical and dishonest in that one respect but in every way imaginable. Bad friends, bad employers/ees, bad partners, bad accountants, bad babysitters, etc. It’s one of those “red flag” caveats that can simplify making choices about people around you or who you depend on.
I agree. The thing is he is so slick, I have no doubt that he told her exactly what she needed to hear to begin the affair.
My own beginning with him was a little sketchy as he basically dumped his GF ( who he claimed was not serious) in order to pursue me. Looking back it was a red flag. He was definitely a bit flirty with me when he wasn’t technically single. I chose to overlook it. Mistake.
They always claim their existing relationships aren’t serious or that they’re being “victimized” by primary partners. A lot of the criticism that cheaters make towards primary partners is intended to “dog train” successors out of having any self esteem, self defense, agency or pluck. “She was always so critical. I didn’t love her as much as you. She was mean to me. She used to get angry at me a lot (when I betrayed and cheated her).”
If you gain resistance to the “hubris trap” that many predators set, you’re more than halfway to permanent immunity to predator bs.
I agree with every single word you wrote except the bit about subconsciousness. Abusive tactics, especially when learned from infancy in dysfunctional families– can become so rote they don’t require thought. And I think what makes someone especially psycho-level dangerous is the degree to which they invest in their own cover reasons for aggressive behavior, meaning they lie to themselves first. They may invest so deeply that it can be spellbinding to bystanders and even victims themselves.
But something being “subconscious” doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t self-serving or “suspected” by the individual or not ferociously defended so there is a willfulness to the blindness. I’m convinced it’s the reason why some abusers can lose control and go apeshit– even to the point of harming their own cases– when confronted with the truth of their own deeds and MOs in courtroom settings– because the truth is threatening the fragile house of cards of their own narratives and alibis and forcing these realities into “full consciousness.”
Mine started in a similar way. Chumpy me married FW only in discover over 26 years later he didn’t stop just got worse and more abusive and I was trapped with kids. This lowlife boyfriend is an abuser, a covert narcissist who knows how to manipulate for sympathy especially from women.
I remember when I was really immersed in the pain of his cheating after being married 30 years, we went to a marriage counselor (because he wanted someone to validate his delusion that it’s OK for him to have both of us, his whore and me). Not only did she NOT do that, she flat out told him that he needed to be in a mental hospital (really!) and that he probably wasn’t the right person for me to seek comfort from (as the person who hurt me) and when he stormed out of the room in a scary narcissistic RAGE, she told me that he should not be allowed back in my home, he was actually quite dangerous, and that he needed real psychiatric help, oh and do not stop the divorce process no matter what lies he told me. I am so grateful for good therapists who did not promote reconciliation or put any of the blame on me.
One of the many lessons I learned with my mess is that when a professional tells you to RUN, you better RUN. I stayed way too long and subjected myself to horrors that took years to unwind.
There was truly nothing to worth with there.
The first therapist he took me to (well, I thought his intentions were to make amends but it was always the same-to get me to go along with his “solution” which was to have both of us) she said that I needed a lawyer FAST and he needed to be hospitalized. I got the lawyer immediately, thank goodness my brain worked at least that much. It was the second therapist that told me to get him out of the house (MY house) and I did that legally, too. And after that I only went to individual therapy because there was no way to save a marriage he broke.
Yes, I hear you. Typo, I meant NOTHING TO WORK WITH. Nada. Zilch.
My ex had some of the terrible diagnoses and had been talking about my death in roundabout ways. He behaved well when hospitalized and got an “all clear,” but the therapist we both saw disagreed. She saw far-end borderline and more, and it all blew up in technicolor. When he finally took off the second time, I had almost nothing left.
Thankfully, I got my head together and refused to reconcile, then survived an ugly divorce because of an attorney who became like a big brother to me. I had a lot of therapy and coaching and figured life out.
How is he doing? No idea. Not my committee.
I’m so proud of you for being strong. I KNOW it’s not easy to let go of someone you love. Before I really understood the danger, I let him talk me into going on a day hike in the desert because I got brainwashed into thinking it would be like the good times. I felt he was going to do something to me! I even wrote my therapist an email and told her if I didn’t come back, give it to my attorney. She told me NOT TO GO but I did. It was very strange. We went to an extremely remote location and no one would have found me. Sounds like a TV show, right? It seems he had some brain or conscience remaining because just when I thought he was going to push me down a wash (not kidding) he said lets go. Silence all the way back. I never went anywhere with him again. I was petrified. This is the man I loved more than anything in the world and he turned into a monster.
Yes, my ex was (and probably is still) a deeply disturbed man.
I don’t miss him at all now, but it took me years to get to that point.
I totally understand.
Sounds like she saw right through him. We went to couples counselling and the therapist was quite neutral which didn’t help me much.
It should not be necessary to go to counseling after only 18 months — and you’re not married. Who paid for the counseling session(s)? Not him, I’m guessing.
Pathetic… I put it through on my benefits. Can you believe it?
That’s a horrible therapist. IME, when vetting therapists, you have to ask them straight up if they think cheating is abuse. If they say no, throw them out.
Also heads up, never go to therapy with an abuser, because it’s dangerous. In fact, most psychologists now refuse to do couples counseling where there’s an abuser involved, because it just teaches the abuser to be more manipulative and abusive.
The abuser doesn’t have a communication problem, they ARE the problem.
Agree, it does no good to seek therapy with an abuser. It’s just more pain.
Yeah, I am really grateful for her insight now — but at the time I was so messed up that I was half hoping she’d tell me to accept his nonsense. Hardest thing I ever did was go no contact but it had to be done. She was 1000% right about his mental state. Somehow he kept it hidden for all those years but when he met that whore, his real self exploded. Total Jekyll/Hyde. Very scary. I’m really sorry that your counseling experience wasn’t as helpful. You had to be extra strong without solid support. HUGS.
Girl, you already dodged one bullet with this abuser. Don’t give him another chance to perfect his aim.
Read the book “The Chain” by Chimene Suleyman – a rather relevant story on abortion and cheating.
Also – I don’t understand: where is he providing YOUR validation? Does it come from him not using protection because of his breeding kink which is typical for narcs/psychopaths (studies show higher average number of kids for narc men – because those “I am God” genes of course need to be passed on if you think you are “God”… see also Musk) needs to be indulged in? Is he validating you while sticking it in to another woman that he told god knows what?
Or is it purely the title “Girlfriend”, which is not even real in your case as Tracy points out? Cause I suspects it’s that. Does he pay half of the rent, is it that? I can’t see anything else it could possibly be.
Thanks, I am not familiar with that book. I will check it out.
I am the writer of the post. Thank you so much. This is validating. I am in my 40s now and sometimes I feel like this was the last shot at motherhood which is sad. However, I have to believe that it would have been a very unhappy life. Starting out single does feel scary which is strange because I have been happily independant for most of my adult life.
I appreciate all the supportive comments.
Not only an unhappy life for you, but children suffer more than anyone. I am proud of your decision for all the right reasons.
It’s not strange: you wanted to finally not be single and be in a relationship. That failed and that’s crushing. It’s a huge disappointment that probably took some of your self esteem- plus being a straight woman 40+ dating is not easy. 44 year old men send most of their messages to women age 32 in OLD, as an example…
Good luck going forward!
Yeah, I guess I will just focus on being disappointed that it didn’t work out the way I had hoped. Being delusional about it would be worse.
The abortion had nothing to do with his decision to cheat. That was simply the nearest excuse that in this dipshit’s brain was watertight. You made an adult decision that he could not live with. That is HIS problem-not yours. If he elected to punish you for making the right decision for YOU that is all the more reason to stay away from this cretin. Your body, your choice. If he was not on board with that it REALLY should have come up…I dunno…at any point before he cheated.
Spoilers though-he does not actually care about how you feel, think, or believe.
It seems that you are at the same crossroads we all have found ourselves at-do we stay or do we go/stay away? It is my hope that you decide to end the cycle of abuse that he has put you through and start over elsewhere.
Suppose for a second you kept the pregnancy. He was going to cheat anyway. If the abortion was all it took (and let’s unpack the premise there-“I have abandonment issues that were triggered by this”-like, seriously, THE HELL?) for him the cheat, let me repeat myself, he was going to cheat anyway. Now you have this idiot’s kid AND he’s doing whatever he wants and you’re now a single mother.
I mean, I get it. My fuckwit denied my chance to be a father. I have strong and powerful feelings about wanting to be a father. I also didn’t betray her by way of punishing her. Instead I went to therapy and decided to not make that her problem.
How much longer are you going to be OK with being lied to, gaslit, and betrayed?
We were all there.
Now is your chance to make #6 the forever breakup.
We are here for you.
Have a mighty monday!
Wow! Thank you so much. I really appreciate you saying that it really wasn’t my fault and would have happened anyway. Deep down that is my intuition as well but I always second guess because it seems so convenient for me. However, he does have a pattern that I saw ( reading between the lines).
Believe it or not ( I am a bit shocked myself) I have moved my belongings out since he is late at work and will meet with him tonight to close the door once and for all. I wasn’t planning to do this today, but if not now, when?
I am sorry your plans for family didn’t work out as you had hoped. I guess that I just have to accept that part.
Abuse is NEVER the victim’s fault. Point blank. Period. None of us were perfect partners. That didn’t give our fuckwits the right to do what they did.
Like I said-that was the nearest convenient excuse (and a flimsy one at that.) Cheating (or any abuse, really) does not occur in a vacuum. It is not “if-then.” It is tied to entitlement among other things.
Take my fuckwit for example. “I betrayed you because I wasn’t happy.” Never you mind I did whatever she asked and paid most of her bills(she stole back what she paid.) She told me to go to therapy. I went to therapy. She moved the goalposts back on that and said I needed MORE therapy because I still had depression and anxiety. Which I have had since Childhood and were exacerbated by “I want an open relationship”(which I did not permit-spoilers-she opened it anyway and made me watch-clearly this was supposed to have no effect on my mental health.) Mine is not a unique story.
Integrity, as my reality canary reminds me, is how you behave when you do not believe you are under surveillance. We find out far too late the integrity of the people we love.
Cut this idiot off. He lost his “you” privileges when he cheated. No Contact is your friend-more contact keeps the wounds open and propagates more abuse. I set up a dead-drop for my ex to pick up her stuff. Other than the occasional blip on social media (where not already blocked) I never hear from or about her and am better for it.
That sounds really painful. So sorry that you had to go through that. I have initiated No Contact. I did see him in person to say goodbye, but that is it. I feel sorry for him, but I must stay away.
Don’t meet with him! He will try to hoover you back because THAT is the game!!
Fold your board up. Be done.
Send him a text and block him
That is all he deserves.
FW and I broke up and got back together a few times before I got pregnant. We were also together roughly a year and a half at that point when one of the times I was done I packed up all my stuff from his place and left behind a sappy note on why I was leaving then before I got to the door I called him and he rushed over to talk me down then the honeymoon cycle restarted… Things obviously didn’t last long and things got worse again and the 2nd to last time I broke up with him I moved my stuff out slowly but had a few things left and decided that after all that time the proper thing to do was to break up with him in person at his place and we would talk it out but still be done… When I went over to FW’s house to get closure he blocked me from leaving, took my keys, and my phone and that night resulted in the nonconsensual conception of my eldest child. It took years to plan how to safely leave (with a toddler) for the last time. When I did break up with him for the last time it was like the stars aligned and a stupid accident on his part was my lucky break. This was about a decade ago and hindsight is 20/20. Which is why I am strongly suggesting The Gift of Fear by David DeBecker and Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft.
Think of it like you are living in two different realities; Lets say you live in Reality 1 where you believe the relationship is based on the principal of Mutuality, where you work together respectfully and honestly to create the life you want to share. He lives in Reality 2 where he believes the relationship is an ongoing power struggle and believes he is entitled to abuse you in various ways in order maintain Power Over you. These two separate realities cannot coexist.
You and him don’t have any reason to meet privately in person to discuss anything.
Agree totally with this Moving On.
OP should not meet with this guy for any reason….. block blockity block and nope out of there forever
Meghan,
This “man” is draped in layers of red flags. I am an older chump at age 55. I found out I was a chump at age 51, but I have no idea if I was sooner as the cheater refused to give up any details. What I do know is that in addition to cheating, my FW had a long history of treating me as someone who was of use to him, but not of value. You are young and have your whole precious life ahead of you. Don’t waste it on someone whose actions don’t align with his words. Pick up and move on. Please find a good therapist who can help you find greater worth in yourself so you will avoid choosing someone who really doesn’t value you.
Hi Meghan,
I’m not a veteran on this forum but I’ve been here awhile and most regular posters can probably guess what I’m going to say. Which is… You know who else has clinical “abandonment issues”? Domestic batterers and serial killers. They also all have “attachment disorders,” poor dears.
Search as you may through the annals of forensic science and you’ll find not a single historical case of serial killer rehabilitation and almost no cases of batterer rehab. In fact the latter have about a 98.5% recidivism rate even with anger management therapy coupled with stiff prison sentences. Without the latter two interventions together, recidivism is about 100%.
I honestly don’t relish the idea of scaring people but some things– like crossing the street without looking or tangling with any level abuser– are statistically dangerous. Sure a lot of people might survive in spite of risks but then again many don’t. And when gambling with your life and future, it’s important to consider degree of risks– look before you cross that street. One risk is that abusers statistically don’t “get better” but worse over time so anything on that “spectrum” is already a bad bet even if it’s not on the level of Chris Watts (yet).
I’m kind of a skein untangler and have read a lot about abuser psychology, methods, MOs, backgrounds, etc. But because of my history working as an advocate for domestic violence survivors, I tend to untangle in the “run screaming” direction, not the usual pop psych coddling direction that’s over-represented on the web through “reconciliation” schemes and “sex addiction cure” hubs that CL often warns about and supposedly sex-pozzy minimizations of what are categorically sexually abusive behaviors (like cheating).
Even some of the pop-psych discussions about “narcissistic abuse” can be minimizing by default simply because there’s a turf war going on in which various pop psych gurus and mental health professionals are turning the newish and rather uncharted diagnostic label of “narcissism” into a cottage industry and trying to make their marks. But unfortunately by putting a sort of “brand label” on narcissistic abuse, there’s an implication it’s some kind of “special” or particular type of abuse that is somehow separate from plain old criminal abuse. Because of this, those promoting narcissism as a cause for abuse can fail to warn about the age-old trajectory of abuse. I think that’s partly because some of the same folks warning of narcissistic abuse are also subscribing to the idea that there are “cures” for it or, at the very least, simply don’t want to contradict and piss off their colleagues who try to market those supposed cures.
But “abandonment issues” that come with abuse, just like “attachment disorder” that comes with abuse, are very scary clinical red flags. On their own and separate from abuse they’re reportedly hard to address in therapy though there might be cause for sympathy. But once someone starts amassing a trail of victims, stick a fork in them, they’re cooked. That’s because once someone does real harm, they tend to remain hooked on their own self-exculpatory rationalization systems, something called “neutralization” in forensic psych (search “Denying the Darkness: Exploring the Discourses of Neutralization of Bundy, Gacy and Damner + MDPI” for a very clear take on what it is). In short, guilt is ugly and the worse the offenses that someone commits, the more unlikely it is for them to let go of excuses for it. And those excuses will invariably at victims’ expense, generating even more excuses to abuse and commit worse abuse on and on.
That’s all obviously by way of arguing that cheating is abuse– full stop. It’s a form of abuse in itself and requires officially recognized forms of abuse to facilitate, at the very least forms of coercive control (many of the behaviors you’ve been subjected to qualify) though also often official types of domestic violence such as assault, physical endangerment and financial abuse. And considering that coercive control (subviolent emotional abuse and control) is now officially recognized as the chief statistical predictor of eventual domestic murder even beyond a history of violent assault, it’s not a hyperbole to suggest that cheating can be followed by worse to come.
Once someone’s been identified as an abuser, the rest is kind of a game of roulette to figure out how much worse it can get because these individuals have baked in character issues. The one, limited exception to this might be the slightly increased rate of “monkey branching” by battered women who, if they were not in dire danger, might never have cheated on a partner. This likely happens because the justice system and social safety nets fail, thus victims facing this level of threat sometimes fall into the trap of relying on a bodyguard/new partner in order to make their harrowing escapes. It’s not even recommended in that situation since women who do this face a 50-fold increased risk of landing with another abuser (abusers not only like to play victim but love to play rescuer too). But all other cheating is abuse.
Like every abuser, yours came up with a demented blameshifting excuse to commit abuse against you and play victim-to-his-victim and, as usual, the excuse he drew also doubles nicely as a way of smearing your character, grossly violating your privacy and also threatening you with worse to come if he starts telling everyone you’re a “baby killer.”
What he did was to issue a fatwa against you– a preemptive warning of future post-separation abuse, ergo a message that you’d better not try to escape “or else.” This qualifies as standard coercive control and preemptive entrapment because, as you well know, we’re in an era where women branded as such face very real threats not only from social judgment or legal repercussions but also potential vigilante violence. He’s basically pointing a proverbial gun at your head and telling you he might let someone else pull the trigger — or like a Roman emperor poised to give the thumbs up or down as you run around the Colosseum dodging gladiators and alligators.
You’ve basically been put in a Roman circus which makes it hard to think straight. But I think you know from the timeline what the truth of his MO really is– that the reason he chose this moment to cheat/abuse was because you were pregnant, not because you decided to terminate. Pregnancy is the most statistically risky time for women because it’s when many abusers begin abusing or else dangerously escalate their abuse as the pregnancy progresses. This is why most fetal injury and death are due to domestic violence and pregnant women are at the highest risk of domestic murder.
Like most abusers, your hopefully soon-to-be-ex chose a moment when you were “over a barrel”– at your most vulnerable and potentially dependent on him and (very, very importantly) less likely to be able to react to abuse by leaving him and finding a better partner— to take his mask off and lower the boom. There’s a case to be made that most abusers are ferociously monogamous but just hypocritically so. According to growing research, domestic battering itself may largely be about enforcing one-sided monogamy– meaning, as CL puts it, “freedom for me but not for thee,” the operating credo of every batterer and coercive controller.
Speaking of which, please listen to Chump Lady’s most recent Tell Me How You’re Mighty podcast interview with Dr. Emma Katz, one of the current leading experts on coercive control who’s continuing the campaign to criminalize it begun by the late researcher and advocate Evan Stark who coined the term and the original clinical definition. The interview dives pretty deep into the “freedom for me but not thee” issue.
I think it’s wonderful that you’re a reader and I would recommend reading books by all the above authors (I’d also recommend The Batterer by researchers Donald Dutton and Susan Golant but with the caveat that Prof. Dutton turned out to be a creep and Golant is the real mind behind it but probably just needed a male beard to get published) and arming yourself with knowledge about what you’ve endured and why it’s critical to get support and safely break free of it. Reaching out here is a good step in that direction and I hope you stick around and keep gathering resolve, support and resources.
I know it doesn’t seem like it now and it sounds really weird to put it this way but this is actually kind of an exciting journey. Not thanks to an abuser but in spite of them and due to your own strength and smarts. When the worst of the trauma has passed and you are safe again, I can promise you will have learned things that are intrinsic not only to survival but also to basic life and happiness and can become incredible bonding points with other worthwhile people including a worthy future partner.
Wow, thank you! That is alarming about the link between abandonment and dangerous abuse. I am grateful for the hopeful message. I am making a move to reclaim my life.
So glad to hear you’re reclaiming your life and perspective. It’s a real feat and one you should be proud of even if society doesn’t exactly give out the medals for courage that survivors deserve.
Yes, all abusers were once victims. There are some dumb genetic theories about “born criminality” but these are mostly eugenic junk science. Clinical evidence is really on the side of abusive adults having learned their tactics from trauma and abusive role models in childhood. That’s not always apparent because a certain percentage of abusers will actually lie to cover up for the abuse they witnessed or experienced by role models in childhood, almost like they refuse to talk about or condemn behavior that they eventually emulated and adopted themselves. In other words, some pretend to have had idyllic upbringings even when they didn’t. And, as adults, they may remain close to the very role model who destroyed their innocence.
Nevertheless, most people who suffer childhood abuse and trauma don’t grow up to be adult abusers so this is not meant to tar anyone who had adverse childhood experiences. It’s just that, unlike trauma “survivors,” abusive people really didn’t emotionally “survive” their brutal formative experiences at all. Part of them died. They’re more like ghouls and poltergeists angrily punishing the living for still being alive and sentient.
You can certainly feel very sorry for the past traumatized children they once were but sympathizing with adult “poltergeists” can be extremely dangerous. It’s better to channel that sympathy into various forms of advocacy to protect victims of abuse and their children before children even have a chance to be transformed into adult abusers.
The Excuse. My former husband had more excuses than a room full of tardy school kids. Each excuse sent me off on a fantastical voyage to try to understand him. It was years before I realized that none of his excuses matter. The one commonality I have seen here when Chumps share the excuses is that they like to tell you that the one thing you cant change is the reason.
My then husband told me that it was the fact I had my tubes tied after 3 babies…he proclaimed strongly that he wanted 7 kids. Not something I was willing to do when he wasn’t raising the ones he had. I was proud of my comeback though “Oh 7 is the number of children you wanted to abandon me with”.
The night he told me the reasons he wanted to divorce me, he gave me a 2 hour monologue (I sat there slumped over listening). The things at the end of the list contradicted the ones at the beginning.
IT took me a LONG time to figure out that the reason he cheated is that he was mean, selfish, blaming, cruel, and liked to put his dick where it didnt belong.
Dump his ass! He sucks.You deserve better.