He Cheated, Yet He’s ‘Pathologically Nice’
Yes, he cheated on her, but he’s still a pathologically nice person. Conflict avoidant maybe. He didn’t intend to hurt her. Does it matter?
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Hi Chump Lady,
I was hoping to get your thoughts on something that has pervaded my marriage, discovery of his infidelity and now divorce proceedings.
That is the concept of abuse without malice.
My husband and I have been together 16 years, married for 11. It took me until the past year to really grapple with the reality that my marriage was financially and emotionally abusive, that he lies, and that he cheats on me.
I only know about the most recent one, but I strongly suspect he is still hiding from me past lies and affairs and will lie until the day he dies. The revelation of him sleeping with a mutual friend and lying to me about it, convincingly and repeatedly, is what cleared my vision so I could see my life clearly.
I could no longer explain away the pain in my marriage as “the work” of marriage, or believe any more that we were two fundamentally well meaning, ethical people working through disagreements. The lies just set on fire the last shred of faith I had.
My marriage was not good for me, and I had to get out.
I’m on the path now, physically separated with my own space, learning to thrive as a single mom, working through financial separation, postnup signed, speaking regularly with my attorneys, on the path, looking forward to meh.
Here’s what I mean by “without malice.” He’s not an obvious asshat. He never raised his voice at me. He never hit me or called me terrible names. And he didn’t financially abuse me in a way that was obvious to me or other people. It was all covert, and it was all with a spoonful of honey.
His weapons of choice are charm, optimism, denial and magical thinking.
He’s almost pathologically “nice.” He’s exceedingly conflict avoidant. Intelligent, handsome, loved by his friends, generous, appears emotionally stable, appears successful, fit, charming… and selfish as hell. I don’t believe that he enjoys hurting me, meaning no malice. But he hurts me nonetheless, and I’ve learned to separate intent from impact.
When I started reading your blog, I was terrified he would drop the mask and become a different person, abandon our son, empty our accounts, refuse to sign a postnup, start hitting me or God only knows what else. And I don’t at all regret taking actions to protect myself in case he did. I know that for me to be relieved none of this happened just shows the bar is in hell.
And noted that we’re not divorced yet, so knock on wood, maybe this is all coming. But let’s say it’s not. Let’s say he proceeds to be reasonable about divorce negotiations, but annoyingly good at delay and distraction tactics. Maybe he actually will give me a fair divorce, he just repeatedly violates my boundaries in the process and continues trying to kiss me after I’ve told him to stop. Let’s say he professes his undying love to me and that he’s a changed man until the day we divorce, all while lining up his Warm Body Replacements (a term I heard for rebound girlfriends).
Bottom line, I’m clear that this relationship is not acceptable to me, and I’m leaving.
But I feel like this brand of awful marriage is super confusing to be inside of and difficult to talk about.
I want to open the conversation for other chumps who find themselves with a shitty marriage, always served with a spoonful of honey. Where you are perpetually harmed, but it seems like a regrettable consequence not like his actual goal. Like he doesn’t enjoy hurting you, he’s just too messed up to stop, and maybe really wishes he could.
Is this actually the norm and I’m just confused? Or do some cheaters suck overtly and others covertly?
Thanks for your insight,
ChumpedWithHoney
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Dear ChumpedWithHoney,
I’m guessing you read a lot of Reconciliation Industrial Complex articles before you landed here. You’re describing the mindf*ck of The Timid Forest Creature. He didn’t mean to hurt you! He’s just conflict avoidant! Oh, he’s not a bad person, he just did some bad things!
Remove your head from the helicopter blade.
He’s not ‘nice,’ he’s practiced at impression management.
Also, trying to figure out what manner of cheater he is, is pointless. You made the important decision — this relationship is NOT acceptable to you. Further analysis is untangling the skein. We all do this. It’s a coping mechanism after you’ve invested years of your life in a fraud, but the important takeaway is — he’s a fraud.
There is no abuse without malice. That’s your bargaining stage of grief talking. You’re resisting the idea that your husband could behave so callously and deceptively. Which leads to the conclusion (and giant wall of pain) that he didn’t love you. That his investment didn’t match your investment. You were chumped.
I only know about the most recent one, but I strongly suspect he is still hiding from me past lies and affairs and will lie until the day he dies. The revelation of him sleeping with a mutual friend and lying to me about it, convincingly and repeatedly, is what cleared my vision so I could see my life clearly.
He slept with a mutual friend. HE KNEW THIS WOULD DEVASTATE YOU. And he PROCEEDED. He weighed your emotional well-being and physical health against his grubby ego validation, and his dick won. And then after discovery, he weighed your sanity against his discomfort at being exposed, and he valued himself above you again. He persisted in doubling down on his lies.
He doesn’t hate you — he doesn’t even consider you.
And isn’t indifference supposed to be worse than hatred? Frankly, I’m not convinced that cheaters don’t hate the people they’re cheating on. But it’s an impersonal kind of hate. They’re the superior beings, you’re the inferior race. Why answer your questions? It’s not as if you matter.
Here’s what I mean by “without malice.” He’s not an obvious asshat.
Abusers don’t lead with abuse. They have hooks. Very few people are dumb enough to waltz off with a brute. Of course he’s charming.
He never raised his voice at me. He never hit me or called me terrible names.
No, he just concealed his selfish agenda and stole years of your life. He faked an investment in you that he did not reciprocate. A punch in the face is at least an honest transaction. You know who and what hit you.
And he didn’t financially abuse me in a way that was obvious to me or other people. It was all covert, and it was all with a spoonful of honey.
Double lives cost money and I hope you ask for theft of marital assets back in the divorce. (You are divorcing, RIGHT? Is the postnup some lure to have him think reconciliation is possible?)
Tell me what kind of honey you’re receiving when the consequences become clear to him.
Reframe his ‘charm.’
His weapons of choice are charm, optimism, denial and magical thinking.
His weapons of choice are deception, future faking, gaslighting, and lack of accountability. There, I fixed it for you.
He’s almost pathologically “nice.” He’s exceedingly conflict avoidant. Intelligent, handsome, loved by his friends, generous, appears emotionally stable, appears successful, fit, charming… and selfish as hell.
It’s not nice to screw mutual friends while married to you. I have to actually type that sentence. His behavior is NOT NICE. Ergo, he is NOT NICE. Unless you want to judge him on some other criteria, like how handsome he looks in golf trousers. Other people fall for it, because who he projects himself to be is inoffensive. He’s a very nice hologram.
Don’t expect a nice divorce.
If you get one, great. Leave this to the lawyers and don’t back down from what you’re entitled to. I’m skeptical that people this selfish are going to lead with generosity and fairness. The sooner you strike, the better, IMO. Let him follow the Schmoopie sparkles. Get out before it implodes.
And noted that we’re not divorced yet, so knock on wood, maybe this is all coming. But let’s say it’s not. Let’s say he proceeds to be reasonable about divorce negotiations, but annoyingly good at delay and distraction tactics.
Pay attention to his behavior.
Saying “nice” things, like he agrees to the divorce terms, and then drags his feet and won’t sign shows he doesn’t mean a damn thing he says.
Maybe he actually will give me a fair divorce, he just repeatedly violates my boundaries in the process and continues trying to kiss me after I’ve told him to stop.
He’s hoovering. Testing your boundaries. That behavior says he doesn’t believe you’re going to make good on your threat. So he’s trying the old manipulation channel that’s always worked for him: charm. He could well flip to rage and self-pity next.
Let’s say he professes his undying love to me and that he’s a changed man until the day we divorce, all while lining up his Warm Body Replacements (a term I heard for rebound girlfriends).
It doesn’t matter what he professes or what he does. What matters is that this relationship is unacceptable to you.
I want to open the conversation for other chumps who find themselves with a shitty marriage, always served with a spoonful of honey. Where you are perpetually harmed, but it seems like a regrettable consequence not like his actual goal. Like he doesn’t enjoy hurting you, he’s just too messed up to stop, and maybe really wishes he could.
He’s not Godzilla, mindlessly trampling Tokyo. He’s sentient being who understands what he’s doing, okay? Of course he regrets the consequences — they’re consequences!
Deliver them.
****
CN, any of you suffer from a similar confusion?
New post. Just a reminder about invective and my Google overlords. Please use euphemisms or abbreviations. Thanks.
Oh my gosh, this describes my ex so well. “Doesn’t even consider you” is so perfectly accurate. The indifference was so painful, only to have them weave in and out with emotional support, or asking me for support (which I always give because I struggle with boundaries).
The lies about the affairs, the blame shifting – it’s all to protect their ego. They can’t stand to be the bad guy or have their image ruined. But they don’t use private anger to manage it; they use tact and niceness (not kindness) to manage it.
I’ll never say one is worse than the other, because I hate abuse comparison, but I will say I was and am deeply hurt from all this, even as I try to focus on healing and living life and being a healthy co-parent for my children.
Old Indian Saying “Watch the feet, not the tongue”, of course cheaters are charming, it works, the mere fact that he tries to kiss you is an outright act of cruelty, he doesn’t mean it, its just to see if he still has the magic. He is more dangerous than you know, just wait until you cross him, the other side will come out, right now he doesn’t know what’s coming “hit him with your best shot, fire away” you will see what you are dealing with fairly quickly. It won’t be pretty.
You may always have value as an appliance and the niceness may never leave…
Agreed about the kiss- that made me want to set my hair on fire. My ex would try to hug me and looking back took photos of me, saying “smile” and I would say no, and he was so cajoling and – I would say, but I’m sad, and then he would get me to smile and take a photo. Looking back, to show to everyone that I “am look ” with it all, and at that point ,and I suspect in this case, you have no idea how bad it is yet.. just NO. He is not nice at all. Image management is the WORST. The public shame of walking around with a black eye (we blame victims) isn’t as bad to me – I’ve had both- as the brain washing that “he’s a good guy”. This guy isn’t even there. And my shrink said, when I was still looking for accountability and I still struggle with it in my head, although I am no contact for a long time, “he will lie on his deathbed”. And yours will too. Godspeed you can go gray rock or better no contact. Tracy mentioned the post nup and I don’t know what is going on with that either, but get angry and get all you can get and get out.This guy is a monster.
I recall Tracy has said to get a postnup IF YOU INTEND TO STAY ..as a means of protecting your assets and giving more chances. Then pulling out the post nup for the divorce proceedings if you plan to file. I am wondering if honey Chump is dragging her feet, staying and weighing the pros & cons with her letter to CL. Just my feeling here.
“I am Ok”
The concept I struggled with the most as a newly chumped individual was the whole “cheaters are abusive” thing. My FW was kind, nice, liberal, socially aware, and a pillar of the community. Surely I must have done something to deserve this. Maybe the cheating was just a mistake.
I was unable to see who this person really was until after I left, when FW subjected me to an extremely destructive campaign of slander and post separation abuse. I started reading about abusive relationships and began to realize that the relationship had always been abusive, and even violent and scary at times. I hadn’t seen the pattern because FW’s overwhelming “nice” periods had kept me from connecting the dots.
Not everyone will have this experience after leaving. But the best book I can recommend about abusive relationships is Don Hennessey’s “How He Gets Into Her Head.” The book barely mentions battering, if at all. It talks almost exclusively about how abusers spend months and years to “befriend the victim’s mind.”
He says that the most skilled abusers never do the most egregious things, because they don’t have to. It’s actually easier for them to maintain control by “playing nice” (while actually exploiting you). And the whole time, you’re accepting their version of events and telling their side of the story, because there’s no room for your perspective in the relationship.
Just something to think about as you gain some distance and start to piece together your own experience of what happened.
Same here. I still occasionally wake up in the middle of the night wondering if FW is right and I’m the bad person here. But luckily going as NC as possible has helped a lot with that. Sending hugs!
Yes this was me too. I might buy the book even though I am well out of my marriage, I still find reading info about these people helpful in my daily life.
Oh no, no, no, no no.
Lots of abusers are outwardly nice-seeming. Child sexual predators are often reported to be quite nice. Would anyone allow a snarling, crazed monster with disheveled hair, dirty clothes and a leer on their face access to their child? But Father Steve, so kind to the family, so soft-spoken, so spiritually accessible? Or Uncle Joe, so kindly and benevolent, a trusted family friend for years and who takes such a paternal interest in little Michael?
I hear the sound of every grandma on earth saying “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.” Yes, you do.
OP, this guys niceness is only a tool to get what he wants. It has no connection to the real emotion of genuine kindness and you need to stop being confused by that. Stop looking for niceness and look instead for integrity. Does he treat you with integrity? Clearly not.
Please stop caring that he is smiling when he stabs you, and deal with the fact of his stabbing you.
I speak from hard-earned experience here. You know what is behind nice? A monster.
ChumpedwithHoney’s FW isn’t “Pathologically Nice” ….. he’s just very adept at image management. The gap between how he puts himself across and the actual impact of his actions is very stark indeed; ultimately, a knife between the ribs delivered with a smile is still a knife between the ribs.
I’m glad that ChumpedwithHoney is getting out.
LFTT
this post has no drama but thats the challenge with this situation….i spent years thinking no abuse occurred because we didnt fight and he was never physically violent toward me….. I gave the benefit of the doubt for years to someone who never earned it…I read somewhere that covert abuse is the worst kind because it takes much longer to figure out….and really encourages you to doubt yourself even more….the sneakiest theft of reality of all
Oh dear. ChumpedWithHoney, this dude sounds suspiciously like a Covert Narcissist to me. He projects a persona that is all sweetness and light while simultaneously being really awful. When I got divorced people were SHOCKED! that my ex had cheated and that he quit seeing the kids.
My ex’s persona was “Fine, Upstanding Christian Businessman.” That is not who he is or was. He was a liar who lied for the hell of it–after literally telling me that he was not a good liar while we were dating.
We had been married around 20 years when he told me that he had never felt empathy. He just didn’t understand what that was like. It took me 25 years to realize that it made him happy to emotionally destroy me. The constant story of our marriage was that I was never quite good enough. Every time I “failed” he felt that it was his duty to point it out so that I would know why I was a failure and improve. I was such a disappointment to him. He wasn’t trying to be mean. He was trying to help me be a better person. That’s how he treated our children as well.
This kind of abuser is just as likely to unalive you as the one who beats his wifely weekly. You need to get out. Now.
My ex told me at one point that he didn’t think he was capable of love. I took it to be some sort of self-doubt and that he was looking for comfort, but it was a confession.
In the satanic factory of FW manufacture the OP soon be ex probably came off same conveyor belt as my FW narcopath.
Charming, funny, seemingly nice guy and physically not intimidating at all. Yep that’s him. Generous seemingly because he was too busy siphoning money to his double life to care about us and because there was plenty of money to go around. During reconciliation we had expensive trips and he was crying timid forest creature and so convincing telling that I was the love of his life, he was hurting, his FOO stuff, etc. His crying tantrums and fake suicide attempts were avoidable if I just played along, but I kept digging and couple of marriage counselors were taking him to task and he hated being held accountable!
By the time I landed here I had ready Tracy’s book and realized he was considering a fatal accident for me. Also that once lulled into complacency that I was staying, he was stealing and lying again/never stopped. I had private investigators help me in my digging for the truth.
Narcissistic personality disordered cheaters come in different flavors and this covert type is the most excellent at Impression Management I believe in part because they believe their own BS.
Nice timid forest creature facade began to slip as we were divorcing and knowing that guilt wears off in 3-9 months I proceeded quickly and got a decent settlement leveraging it, but because FW already stole a 7 figure sum so he again ‘looked nice’. My beeyotch of a lawyer even said he still loved me and to leverage it.
After the divorce he showed his true colors by neglecting and lying to the kids and being shockingly cheap to us while crying about being alone. I have the receipts as the kids say. Covert narc to the max. He’s practiced this faux Nice Guy persona his whole life he was even playing that to the escorts!
Tracy’s right on in her reply. LISTEN. And hire a private investigator to help you dig. Find your own ‘receipts’. I know the evidence presented by an objective third party hurt like hell but helped me counter FW expert gaslighting. He’s still cos playing Nice Guy everywhere and now I just leverage it for the kids in my near NC way. So there’s that at least.
By the way FW being so nice and contrite was I stayed after DDay #1 with a post nup decades ago. He fooled so many people for so long. Does not work don’t fall for it!
There is one more thing I feel compelled to say to OP. The greater the disconnect between the image and the action, the more dangerous these guys are. They are very, very skilled at deception and have invested enormous energy into that image. You are in a lot more danger than you realize, physically, emotionally, financially and in every way.
Yes. You are the sole witness to their crime that they’ve hidden from the world. The only person who knows they are lying. If they can take you out somehow, there will be no tracks at all.
This is so very true – you are a threat to their image, and therefore their existence, simply because you are proof that they are not a nice person. It took me a while to understand that I was an NPC in his world, and if that is the case you are also very disposable. How that manifests itself could potentially be a larger danger to you than you realize. Once I realized what was happening, my guard was up, he was the enemy…and I did everything I could to protect myself and my child as I untangled myself from the FW. Don’t let them get in your head, don’t let them fool you with the semblance of nice.
This is a sociopath. You’re describing a sociopath. He’s concluded that a veneer of being “nice” and pouring on the charm is a much more effective way to get what he wants than rage and obvious coercion.
Stop focusing on the “spoonful of honey”. He abuses you financially in ways he knows are hard for others to see. He tries to abuse you sexually (kissing you after you said no) and to manipulate you with physical contact.
Do not be fooled by any of this. If he really felt like the charm stopped working to get what he wanted, he’d drop the mask.
This is the label I have for my exFW now. Only a sociopath can hide a double life for three decades and still see himself as a good guy. Only a sociopath can do all the terrible things that he did and still somehow blame me for all of it. My therapist said “I’m not allowed to diagnose someone if I’m not their therapist, but…damn if he doesn’t fit the criteria for a sociopath I’m not sure who does.” That’s good enough for me.
Thank you for using this word — sociopath. That’s the vibe I’m getting from this FW. It’s worse than being a covert narcissist. This person is very, very practiced at sociopathy. I think No Contact is super-important here.
agrreed.
A shrink once said to me “I never met a sociopath I didn’t like.”
Scary, but I can definitely see the truth. Charm can be a weapon, and much more disarming than straight up violence.
THIS
Oh wow …scary
Here’s what I mean by “without malice.” He’s not an obvious asshat.
Really? Sleeping with your friend is malicious. Trying to assault you (kissing without permission) is malicious. It all reads “obvious asshat” to me.
(Also — I say this with love — why is he physically close enough to you to try to kiss you? Is this during child drop-off? He doesn’t need to be in your home, and vice versa. Stay in your car and have him bring child outside. Shore up on No Contact, which will help you see that he is indeed an obvious asshat.)
Agreed – mental/emotional AND physical distance are important. Not too long after I had to start doing it, I backed drop offs/pick ups to neutral locations outside of my home.
This! 100% Everybody loves him. He pays me monthly- although I suspect he hid money from me when we went through the marriage industrial complex. Of course he would have said it was for security. Of course it’s his security and optics, but i also think he wants to convince himself that he’s not a bad guy. That he’s a good guy trying to make everyone happy. Naturally, “making everyone else happy” begins with self in his book. This is why I now have a problem with the argument that you must love yourself first in order to love others. No. He loved himself more and therefore served himself first.
“He doesn’t hate you — he doesn’t even consider you.”
This was my ex. If you stand still and look at him, he’s not nice, he’s a shark…maybe with his teeth filed down, but he’s cold and calculating. He figures out how he can continue his double life doing whatever it is he wants to do, whatever fills the hole, and not have to deal with the consequences of his actions. Need to still feel like the nice guy? How about a hug, or a kiss, making you dinner, or one last romantic rendezvous? “Nice” is as surface as it gets – it’s what he does to look like anything but the bad guy that he is. The cognitive dissonance was STRONG with my ex. The sad/scary part is that they fully believe this about themselves. You are a side character, so how can you be of any consequence anyway? But that circus in their heads that they call reality doesn’t matter. You’re a real person, who experienced real abuse. The truth of what they did can be disguised but it cannot be changed. Get away from their orbit now, keep the co-parenting business only, and process the mindf*ck later. I am 9 years out and I still don’t know how people like this exist, but they do and I don’t try to convince myself otherwise when I smell this kind of BS coming. Nice (or rather kind) is an action. These people are not nice – they are cruel BS artists.
Yes! We married “nice guys” instead of “good men.” Cheaty’s layers of “nice” whitewash were so thick that it took me ten years of scraping to get down to his reality. When his “consequences became clear” to him, his behavior changed. Or maybe I should say that when his “nice” began to fail to work on me anymore he showed me exactly who he has been the entire time. Manipulative, vindictive, and viciously angry at anything and anyone who dares challenge his carefully crafted “nice guy” image.
My exFW was almost exactly what you described. A “nice guy”. But he did the same stupid hurtful stuff your FW is doing. During our separation he would try to kiss me. He would touch me when the children were around and I couldn’t shrug him off without looking like a jerk. He apologized over and over. Promised to be a better man for me. I had heard it all before. But he gave me everything I wanted in the divorce. I thought that maybe, I got off easy.
We’ve now been divorced for two years and he is suing me. Once he learned that I’m not coming back his fangs really came out. So now he’s dragging me into court to take away my alimony and forcing me to sell my house. The man I gave chance after chance to isn’t satisfied with how his life turned out and is blaming me. I have become the villain in his story. And I’ve got the lawyer fees to prove it. Nice guys like our FWs aren’t really nice at all. It’s a mask. The further away from him you get the more you will see that he isn’t nice at all. Go back and read your post again. Look at all the “nice” things he did to you. Read it as if it’s someone else. Trust that he sucks. Because he does.
I had a FW much like this too. It’s so confusing! I would recommend reading Lundy Bancroft”s book. “Why Does he Do That?” He describes the different types of abusive men. This book helped me so much to understand what I was going through. One type he describes is “Mr Sensitive”. Described mine to a t. Very kind, people like him, he is so on board with fair treatment of women, yet in private he lies and is selfish as anyone can be.
This is a great book for any female chump to read. It sure helped me a lot. I learned about it from reading CL.
Yes! Stilachump! I finally got around to reading that book a year and a half ago (I’m now 6 years post divorce). I was surprised just how much of that book I highlighted as I read. A couple lines I highlighted because they reminded me of a friend’s husband or an ex I just dated, but 98% of everything else I highlighted was in response to stuff my ex did that was mentioned in that book.
Oh yes! Very many parts of that book highlighted after my divorce. I was surprised too.
I’ve continued to read it and found other men I’ve dated since in that book and it’s been so helpful for me to realize I need to stay away from any of those men.
Mine was and is the same.” Ignore 37 years of serial cheating, lying and spending money on other women, Look how good I have been to you and our children” He continues to tell me he’s a great guy. He says he is a family man with a certain flaw that most men have. The problem is me being too provincial and expecting too much. Post divorce he can’t understand why I don’t want to be “best friends” and celebrate family occasions with him.
I feel like yes this is just another subtype of cheater/abuser. They all seem to have their own flavor or tricks. The best thing I heard was “Behavior is a language.” I think it is very common for the manipulators to say one thing and do another. I also struggle with the perennial question, Are they doing it on purpose and with intent? Or are they just believing their own lies, protecting themselves and their fragile ego, and are just a mixed up and hurt person who hurts others? During the marriage I Always took the stance that he didn’t intend to hurt me. (Hurt people hurt others, bad childhood, blah, blah blah) This caused me to not stand up for myself. When I started to take the view that there was at least some amount of intent on his part, it helped me protect myself. Remember he is a grown man with his own will. We have to stop thinking we “know better” than our cheater what’s really going on in his head. That is unhealthy and presumptuous (and I say that out of love because I have been there). My ex gave mixed signals when he was leaving. He moved out but didn’t ask for a divorce. Said there was no one else when there was. Asked me how I was doing in a concerned voice, but also moved out unexpectedly while I was at work and i came home to an empty house which felt like a slap in the face. And on and on. My advice is to be wise. Not unfair, not cruel, not vindictive but wise and protective of yourself, like you would protect a child. Protect yourself. Use his charm and image management to your advantage in the divorce. In my case, I let my ex think I did not know about his affair and I was not confrontational with him during the divorce. And he was cooperative during the divorce. After everything was done i told him (texted) that I knew all along about the other woman and told him off (He never did respond.) Good luck and I am sorry.
You make such an important point here:
“I also struggle with the perennial question, Are they doing it on purpose and with intent? Or are they just believing their own lies, protecting themselves and their fragile ego, and are just a mixed up and hurt person who hurts others? During the marriage I Always took the stance that he didn’t intend to hurt me. (Hurt people hurt others, bad childhood, blah, blah blah) This caused me to not stand up for myself. When I started to take the view that there was at least some amount of intent on his part, it helped me protect myself. Remember he is a grown man with his own will. We have to stop thinking we “know better” than our cheater what’s really going on in his head.”
I was in the same boat. I think being an empath makes it so easy for us to overlook or forgive or explain away behavior that is unacceptable.
I think it can be advantageous to get a divorce done while Mr. Nice wants to keep looking nice, as long as he’s one of those who can see and accept the writing on the wall. I was able to file jointly and we worked on it like two classmates would work on a school project. Sure, it turned my stomach, but the end goal was to get out of the mindf*ck I found myself living in. It could have been so much worse if he decided to go scorched earth once his bluff was called, and I didn’t see any point in venting to or trying to find any comfort in the person who did this to me in the first place.
My ex appeared to be kind and caring to me and almost everyone else. Later I learned that he lied about his education, accomplishments, fabricated military service, etc. while stealing non-marital assets from me and my family.
I had no idea of the malevolence he hid behind a mask.
ChumpedWithHoney, I have the same type of FW. I’ve seen this type labelled ‘community/communal narcissist’, which makes so much sense. My FW is a pillar of the community, his nice-guy image is all about his integrity, he’s soooo helpful to anyone who might need advice, a ride, a meal, some cash.
I was with him for decades. I believed I was the lucky one in the relationship, and he carefully cultivated that idea. In fact people literally told me often how lucky I was. When we were in the thick of raising young children, his M.O. was to say he would be home at X time but be an hour or two or three later because So-and-So needed advice, or was depressed, or he ran into So-and-So and they got to talking, or some incredibly important potential investor for his business venture wanted to talk…whatever. He was a Disneyland dad, swooping in with excitement, activities, games. He was beloved by all (and, it turns out, especially by himself). Plus he’s handsome, charming, blah blah blah.
Once I figured out he was lying and gaslighting me daily and had been in an affair for more than a year, he worked really hard to hoover me. He immediately changed his social media profile picture from a photo with relatives (which he’d used for a decade or so) to one of he and I and our children. What is more telling than that? It’s all about his image and he is desperate to keep his reputation as “Mr. Amazing” intact.
It’s been a year since DDay and I’m inching closer to divorce. I’m as close to No Contact as possible. Shocker: he wants to be friends. He says I am immature for not just moving on and being buddies so we can keep being a family. Um, no. He and his Schmoopie groomed our children to be her buddies during his double life stage. She befriended them on social media, bought them gifts, and the happy secret couple attended a social event with them. WTF! Of course, they want nothing to do with her.
The cognitive dissonance is real. He was never physically abusive toward me, nor did he raise his voice until the very end. During the discard phase, his contempt and rage were obvious to me because he had never treated me like that before. But if I called him on it, he denied it.
Here’s another example of how delusional these people are. I’ve been with this guy since we were 20. When we first met, he was a big player of strategy games. As his career took off, he became obsessed with business psychology and strategy books like The Art of War etc. The first time I had an inkling that he might be having an affair, and I called him on it, he denied everything and turned it all back on me (I was a bad wife etc., so obviously our marriage “had serious problems” which was news to me). I asked him point blank if he wanted to separate or divorce me since he was apparently so unhappy. He said no, he’d never thought about divorce or separation.
I said really? Because you’re a strategic thinker. So there must be a plan here.
And he looked at me with dead shark eyes and said, No, I’m not a strategic thinker.
This was a MONSTER red flag but I was still in cognitive dissonance land and I still believed the hype that he was a fundamentally good person who would never deliberately hurt me or his children.
I agree that “How He Gets Into Her Head” explains men like this in a way that makes perfect sense. They weaponize information about women and use it as an effective form of control.
It took me months to realize that FW shows all the traits of a narcissist and likely a sociopath. It’s so hard to accept that these people are wearing masks of decency, but inside they’re not decent at all.
My therapist worked in a prison before going into private practice. He reminded me that rapists, serial killers and other assortment of offenders, often lead with CHARM and Warmth and kindness. They can act and fake anyway they want to be, like a chameleon, to extract what they want. Handsome, winning trust, they literally get into.your mind and turn your warnings ⚠️ lights out. Pulling out the batteries 🔋. Reading your letter honey, gives me chills as my ex did the charm and kindness until I refused to play with him. Then it got ugly. Your STBX(?) thinks he still has you with his charm…there is NO WAY he would attempt to kiss you or lay even one finger on you, if he thought you meant what you said or if he thought he didn’t still have you in his back pocket. Or as my #1X said, I was just like a fish he could reel🎣 in or throw out whenever he wanted to. Honey, your very creepy Handsome Husband is playing you for a better settlement or something he knows he can get from you. If you keep doing what you are doing with weak knees, you will keep getting what you’ve got. Put your teeth in or decide you are a volunteer but this guy is NOT NICE, He’s just strategic, cunning and he knows your weakness. ESPECIALLY if you are still sleeping with him until the day of divorce or doing any other favors..watch and see what happens with NO CONTACT.
Everything Tracy said, plus I want to add that being a liar is enough! Lying to your spouse (especially about something really important, like sleeping with someone else) is divorce-worthy. No other bad deed required.