How to Talk to Kids About Divorce: An Interview with Sue Atkins
In a recent podcast, we talked with parenting expert Sue Atkins on how to talk to kids about divorce and how to co-parent with lousy people.
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One of the many reasons people stay with cheaters is the abject fear of putting their children through a divorce. And yet when things fall apart and it comes time to tell the kids, that job usually falls to the injured party — chumps.
How do you tell a child their parents are breaking up? And how do you serve the rest of your co-parenting sentence with a characterless creep? These were some of the questions Sarah and I had for parenting expert Sue Atkins in our latest Tell Me How You’re Mighty podcast episode.
Sue’s tips:
Don’t slag off the other parent. (No editorializing.)
Even though the FW richly deserves it. Even if they’ve swanned off and left. And even if you’re incandescent with rage.
“You are their blueprint for love,” says Sue.
Children, generally speaking, still love the lousy parent. That FW you bred with is part of them and it’s their right to love them. And it’s your right to have boundaries with a FW. Stay the course as the sane parent. The FW isn’t modeling good things, but you can. You don’t NEED to slag off the other parent — let the behavior speak for itself.
Reassure kids with what you DO know. “I’m here for you.” “Yes, your hamster will still be here, and you’ll sleep in this bed.” “I love you.” Just be their rock. Kids know who shows up and who doesn’t.
Have a plan.
As much as you can, prepare yourself for hard encounters. It’s so easy to get broadsided, but you can listen to your kids’ concerns and make age-appropriate scripts. (They’re probably thinking about tangibles that affect them, versus the gory details of your heartbreak). Think about how you want to parent.
“Get a pillow and go have a rant somewhere else about the injustice of it all, but [when you’re with your kids] have a clear message you want to impart.”
The specifics depend on your situation, but Cool, Bummer, Wow works too when you want to change the subject.
Wear a suit of armor.
Even Sue finds some “co” parents absolutely exasperating. For those close encounters of the FW kind, like hostage drop-off kid exchanges:
“I imagine putting on a suit of armor, where nothing could touch or reach me. Take a deep breath… and literally step back, because it would remind me to detach.”
How did you explain divorce to your kids? Any advices for the newbies?
For more about Sue Atkins, check out her website, complete with blog, videos, and worksheets for every parenting dilemma. And of course, listen to our interview with Sue at Tell Me How You’re Mighty!
9 years since Dday- 7 since divorce finalized. My children were 10, 15, 19 and 27 on Dday. We are very close and talk and see eachother daily. The eldest never spoke to FW again. The second, our only son, has a superficial relationship with his dad. The youngest two have great boundaries and choose to speak to him very infrequently. XH is a diagnosed narcissist with BPD, untreated symptoms of bi-polar II, takes antidepressants and ADHD meds off label (snorts or smokes it), daily marijuana use and alcoholic. He’s a high earner though. Kids tolerate him for his money. Youngest only ever stayed overnight at his (and AP’s) home a few times when she was 15-16. It was a drunken, rage-fueled disaster. I wish I could turn back the clock 35 years and have run away from him. 😭😭😭😭
Mine was also diagnosed NPD/BPD and was a pill addict. He really began to lose it late in the divorce process, repeatedly telling his own attorney things that scared him so bad that he called my attorney for advice on how to handle his client. That was a bit off, but my STBX’s mental instability was truly horrifying at times with me, so I told my attorney that I wasn’t surprised. My attorney also knew the colorful mental health history but didn’t share any of that. Both were in college, so thankfully no custody issues. They haven’t seen him since he left over six years ago.
This is a perfect illustration of why I don’t entirely agree that you shouldn’t say negative things about the FW. If your kid is experiencing this kind of thing and asks you why dad/mom acts that way, you should answer and be truthful, lest the child think it is his/her fault. Kids tend to think their parents behave abusively, neglectfully or dismissively towards them because of something they have done wrong.
Saying something like; “Mommy/daddy has a problem with drinking and anger.” or “Mommy/daddy doesn’t seem to appreciate the responsibility of being a parent.” isn’t badmouthing, it’s just a truthful explanation.
Since my kids got nosy and sleuthed out some of the ugly details of the affair I wouldn’t have shared with them, there were a lot of “why” question. I consulted with a therapist about it and then answered all the questions to the best of my ability but, after the first few weeks where my daughter poured out her sense of hurt and anger, I began steering things away from the personal to broader themes and social justice issues.
Composite of several actual conversations:
One kid or other: “Why is dad such a creep (that he banged an intern, spent all our money, etc.)?”
Me: “I was really lucky that I grew up with both parents who were social activists and feminists so I learned at a very young age that there’s such a thing as sexual injustice and no one should tolerate it. Many people aren’t that lucky. Some people grow up seeing a lot of abuse at home and start learning that, for instance, women only exist as sexual objects and racial minorities are ‘inferior’ and ‘born to serve’. It’s very traumatic for young children, even young boys, to see this kind of mistreatment. Unfortunately, some learn the wrong lesson and end up repeating the pattern as adults and then the damage can go on to the next generations and on and on. These same damaged people will often also commit other types of injustice, like fraud or political violence or dangerous industrial practices. Their experiences as children destroyed their ability to empathize with others or to feel responsible for doing harm. It’s the root of all bad things. So the best thing any parent can do is try to protect their children from that kind of trauma, teach kids to protect themselves and also teach values about respecting others and the planet.”
Kid: “So dad had a shit childhood.”
Me: “He’s said as much.”
Kid: “And Jeffrey Epstein had a shitty childhood?”
Me: “Probably a horrible one. It’s too bad no one saved him as a kid because once anyone becomes that abusive as an adult it’s too late to fix them.The worse the crime, the less likely they’ll ever change”
Kid: “People like Epstein should be killed.”
Me: “But think about who has to do the killing. People who participate in state executions end up having nightmares and depression for the rest of their lives. So I’d rather that people like Epstein go to jail. Or, if he ever touched my kids, I might kill him myself and go to prison for it but I’m not condemning some prison worker to a lifetime of trauma and misery.”
Kid: “So we wouldn’t have to kill baby Hitler, we could rescue him and then raise him in a happy home.”
Me: “Yeah, I don’t think invading Poland is genetic but maybe wanderlust is, so if we adopted little Adolph, he’d probably grow up to be a tour guide.”
Kid: “Let’s get a time machine and turn Epstein island into a sanctuary for baby dictators (haw haw haw, subject change to time warps and sci fi, etc.)”
“Yeah, I don’t think invading Poland is
genetic but maybe wanderlust is, so if we adopted little Adolph, he’d probably grow up to be a tour guide.”
Lol!
Yeah, it depends on the age of the kid. A complex answer like that would work with an older child. I’m thinking more like a 4-7 year old. You’d need to keep it simple.
Yes, it’s a different thing with teens. When my kids were six and seven and eight and going through mistreatment by school staff, I illustrated and wrote a little faux-Seuss booklet in anapestic tetrameter explaining the deleterious effects school privatization. I wove poop into it so it was a huge hit.
Hell of a Chump, I just love learning new words/concepts here, including your “anapestic tetrameter.” Google saws the opening lines of “The NIGHT before CHRISTmas when ALL through the HOUSE…not a CREAture was STIRring not Even a MOUSE.” So, two short syllables and a long. I’ll have to go compose something while mowing the lawn this morning. Thanks!
Yes, my oldest has had similar thoughts. Both parents had very messy childhoods, but at least mom (me) tried to be a decent person anyway and then got help in working through the whole mess. Dad was never an easy person to be around and won’t admit anything.
So he says…
I’m sorry, I had to laugh at this line in an otherwise serious post! “I don’t think invading Poland is genetic but maybe wanderlust is…”
We always laugh in the middle of serious things around here. It’s a tried and true survival tactic. 😀
If it’s TRUE….it’s not negative….it’s true. That it IS negative is the offending spouse’s fault.
Did you open in anapestic tetrameter on purpose? “If it’s TRUE, it’s not NEGative…it is TRUE!” But then, “That it IS negaTIVE…” (doesn’t scan, though it rhymes.) Clearly it’s time for me to go do something productive!
This was a tough one for me.
My X had a secret double gay life, going back to before we were married. I’d spent over half my life with someone who was gaslighting me the whole time. I spent a long time stumbling around in a fog, after I’d started making one discovery after another.
So dealing with my daughter (who was 22 when D-day happened) was pretty tough. I could see her going through the same process I went through, trying to figure out what was real and what had been fake all along. My weakness was that the whole story was so unbelievable from start to finish that neither of us had anyone else we could talk to, to try and untangle the narrative of our lives. It was hard to answer her questions when I still couldn’t answer my own questions.
I know for a fact that there were times I over-shared, and she didn’t hesitate to tell me. But I did get better at threading the needle, and I acknowledged when I’d f’d up.
I think today, we’ve got the right balance. She occasionally complains about her father to me, but I don’t do the same. I just stay out of their relationship. I’m empathetic but neutral. She sees him once or twice a year. She sees me once or twice a week and facetimes me constantly.
ALWAYS TELL YOUR KIDS THE TRUTH. Kids need security and part of that is about knowing what the truth is and who to trust. They need to know WHY you are getting divorced and their lives are being disrupted so radically. They need to know what the other parent has done so they can know whether or not to trust this person or how much of what happens is the PARENT’S fault as opposed to the kids. Kids tend to think it’s something THEY did. This has to be relayed in an age appropriate manner, of course, and with as little nastiness as possible, but it has to be relayed in truth. If your spouse is conducting an affair or has left the marriage for someone else, you need to TELL THE KIDS THIS. They need to know what the real reason is and who is to blame and whether they can trust the other parent, or the AP. Don’t protect the cheating parent and don’t whitewash things to the kids. Always tell kids the truth. I hate even telling them shit about Santa or the Easter Bunny – as someone from a highly dysfunctional FOO, I can’t get enough truth. It’s critical. How can you build a solid life without a solid basis of truth? Don’t protect some SOB’s image or think it’s so important for kids to have a good relationship with the other parent. It’s really not. They’ll decide that eventually on their own anyway. But they need to know what really happened and who is to blame. Not only is this best for the kids, but it is also, or should be, part of the price that adulterers pay for deliberately destroying their families and homes. Stop playing nice – play honest.
I agree too. I told my then-2yo that “Daddy chose to go and live with his friend [SecretaryCliche] and we feel sad about that.” One of the things I realised is that with very young children especially, you have to check in repeatedly about what they’re feeling, and what they’re worried about, because it will change and might circle back to something you think you’ve dealt with already.
Of all the awful things that exH did, allowing my son think it was his fault daddy had left makes me crazy with fury to this day.
I agree. Details aren’t needed, but you can give them appropriate facts and acknowledge what they are seeing and feeling.
I acknowledged that my ex’s choice to abandon marriage and family hurt a lot. It’s normal to hurt and feel confused, particularly when the only house you’ve ever known is sold, and you have to move across town to a dumpy rental. It’s tough when the lifestyle you grew up with is no longer possible, and your mom is either gone most of the day working or is working all hours from home. It’s confusing when Mom can afford one present for you, and Dad sends a large check, many times over what she paid. It’s confusing and hurtful when Dad basically reinvents himself in a new place like you don’t exist. I acknowledged all that because it was the reality that they were experiencing.
I shared only the broad information and a few details that affected them in the divorce. They overheard phone calls and knew that I made many trips to the attorney’s office. They asked me why it was taking so long, and I told them, “Dad won’t let go and give me a reasonable settlement. My attorney is working very hard, and I have confidence in him.” One time my older one commented that he felt like they were divorcing their dad along with me (no custody issues, they were in college).
Yup, he dug his own hole.
It really sounds like you did everything right, and considering how stressful and overwhelming it is, it’s such an accomplishment with kids. I can’t give you enough kudos for what you’ve been through and how you handled the kids. His massive loss in the end.
Thank you. I truly did the best I could with my kids, and they are both solid young adults now.
If I had a do-over (which we never have), I would have cut short all the reconciliation talk during separation and hired an attorney far earlier than I did. But I was mostly ready to go when I did get an attorney, and he was perfect for my case.
ITA. No gaslighting the kids that daddy/mommy is a wonderful person who just “made a mistake.”
My aunt did this and it fucked up my cousins big time. They grew up thinking their abusive father was great, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Classic example: one of the kids got in a car accident and was transported to the ER. How does Dad of the Year respond? He cancels their health insurance – while the kid’s in surgery.
My aunt’s gone now and my cousins are dysfunctional young adults with damaged pickers. Their father is still an asshole who mistreats them, and they still don’t see it. Their inability to recognize egregiously abusive behavior is devastating and really makes me fear for their futures.
My aunt did her kids such a disservice by lying to them. So please, tell your kids the truth. You don’t need to editorialize, but do be factual.
Yes, that’s for damn sure. This is also a lesson about the kind of morals you want kids to have as well….all the takeaways of life that they learn through everyday experiences. One of these is that you don’t cheat on your spouse, lie and deceive them and steal from the marriage. The other is….you don’t put up with it if it happens to you. These are critical lessons about honesty, integrity and strength. Not about being “nice” so everyone can get along in some fake way.
This 100%. The ex FW/community pee pee introduced our 9 y/o to his “partner” (AKA AP) so I guess he was being 1/2 truthful. I told our son “No, that’s not his partner. That’s his girlfriend and daddy was dating her while we were married and that’s why we got divorced.” Even though our son knows the truth from me while we divorced, ex FW has tried to paint a different story that I didn’t want to fix things. I felt like a jerk telling my son the truth admittedly even though it’s the truth and I can’t help if the truth paints him in a bad light to our son. I didn’t go into details just facts. I’m hoping he’ll understand. I had one friend tell me I’ll sound like a bitter x wife because I told our the truth. I don’t care / the truth is the truth.
You’re not a jerk for setting the record straight after your ex deliberately lied to your kid. You’re righting a wrong. Your child deserves the truth. Lies are abuse. You’re protecting your kid. If there’s any discomfort here, that’s your ex’s fault because he created this situation in the first place by lying. Don’t own what’s not yours.
The truth IS the truth, you did the right thing and your child will see that for himself as time goes along. Time and the actions of FWs & APs almost always confirm the truth of things. Some people are willing to sacrifice everything for peace. We could ask Neville Chamberlin about the costs of doing that.
As a wise man once said, the truth will set you free
I could not agree with you more. My day happened just two months ago. He left for an old high school girlfriend after 16 years of marriage and 20 years together. I have three girls ages 16, 13, and 9. I told them the truth. I refuse to protect him from his choices. I work so hard to not say anything negative about their father but I won’t tell a lie!
You done right! In such a hard circumstance because it’s so easy to be angry and emotional….I know I have a sharp tongue that would be hard to hold, but they need the basic facts of what happened. They’ll ask for more when they need it and they’ll figure out a lot on their own. But they know they can trust YOU.
Here’s an example I would give, because I think this is a difficult issue for so many people. You don’t want to give too much info that a kid could not understand or that would be too upsetting (frankly I don’t give a shit about the other parent’s “image”) but how to word this? There’s a big difference between saying “Your Father (Mother) is a rotten SOB who should burn in hell (or some variant thereof) and saying “Father (Mother) was romantically involved with another person and that is not allowed in a marriage. In marriage you both decide to be with only one person and make a life and family with them. He or she has decided to leave the marriage to be with this other person. I think this is wrong and it’s going to create some problems, but that is his or her decision and we’ll make the best of it. This is how it will affect you, what you can expect.” Something along those lines that relays both facts and your moral position on it, but is not anger or emotion laded. Just the facts and how it will affect the kids. And that it’s not their fault, it’s just a problem between Mom and Dad. I do think there should be some moral aspect to this – children should not think that this is either normal or desirable or excusable to do….just that it happens and we have to adjust to things. They’ll eventually develop their own relationship with the other parent, but it should be based on a real understanding of what that parent is actually like. And what AP is like too as that is part of the issue as well.
How do you cope with other people who talk trash about your former spouse in front of your child? Specifically thinking about close family members of mine….
You probably have done this already but, I’d tell them to stop doing it and tell them why. Even is what they say is true, and it might well be, children do identify with their parents (esp a same sex parent) and it probably makes them feel bad – about themselves, not just the parent. I’d ask them to respect your wishes on this and if it starts up, maybe a hand signal like “cut” to stop it. People have very strong feelings on this topic (I know I do) and it’s easy to let strong feelings get out of control. Unfortunately if they keep doing this and you’re concerned about the effects on your kids, you might have to see these folks less or warn the kids beforehand. Not everyone is going to like everyone – they’re gonna see that at some point in the world in general.
This has been and remains a tough situation. FW & I had a LOT of fights when both kids were in the house. They saw / heard the worst of BOTH FW & I 🙁
I had to lean on my oldest (26, now 27) a lot as I moved out. There was a lot of abuse we dealt with from FW after Dday’s 2 & 3, including s**cidal ideation, g*n play, and verbal threats of violence. The police were involved 4 times. For my safety, I had to leave without him knowing. I have no friends or family near by and I couldn’t tell D18 (autistic) that I was leaving as she would have told her dad. Not out of maliciousness, but fear / anxiety.
I had D18 out of the house with her sibling when I physically moved out. Above all else, I had to make sure she was safe. FW took it hard, mostly because I took the dog, but there was no escalation. A few days later D18 went back to live with FW.
My oldest already had a strained relationship with him as he hasn’t accepted their decision to come out non-binary and change their name. We’ve had the “but he’s your dad” conversation and I try to be careful about disparaging him, but I also allow them to vent their frustrations.
D18 (autistic) is a whole other situation and my therapist is helping me thread the needle with her. She is encouraging me to step in to her relationship w/ FW because of some concerns D18 has raised recently. I was raised ‘what happens in that house, stays in that house’ – but D18’s safety and emotional wellbeing trump that. I have been very “Cool! Wow! Bummer!” about most of the things she’s passed along.
This one interview I could not listen to due to PTSD from 1989 to 2009 when my newborn and 6 year old went back and forth 1 year after D day when visits started. I said very little about what happened to me from my cheater and wifetress to my children ….to keep calm and not angry.atmosphere. Sadly me taking the high road, my daughter grew up to believe her dad’s side( me not meeting needs, me horrible wife. I needed to be left and cheated on). My daughter now 35 says her dad told her the REAL STORY!!!! I lost the narrative by taking the high road. I would not do that ever again. Too late now. My son was more aware at 6 and remembers. Still I lost but still being sane I guess I will wait for my daughter to learn her own lessons. I’m visiting my daughter now who blamed me for the divorce…things are better but she still does not ask me questions. It is a life -long SSandwich and my heart still breaks over the lies told by cheater and affair/ wifetress.
Have you told her you want her to hear the truth from your side and sat down with her and gone through it? Some kids just identify with one favored parent no matter what happens – sometimes it’s about money, sometimes it’s about who seems to have the power, sometimes it’s just affinity, or some combination of these, but for your own peace of mind she should know YOUR truth about what happened. If this kind of thing is not possible to discuss in a meeting, perhaps you could write it out in a letter and give it to her. I think it’s important that kids understand what their parents went through, her position towards you does not seem…I don’t know….respectful. She seems to be dismissive of you, in what must have been one of the worst experiences of your life, like she would not WANT to hear that story. But yet….there it is. Daddy’s not always a hero.
I think people are confusing the issue of “don’t editorialize” (bad mouth” with don’t tell the truth. TELL THE TRUTH. Even Sue says this — kids know what’s going on. Don’t deny their reality (Mom/Dad has a new boyfriend/girlfriend while married). Which is DIFFERENT than “Dad is a total shit head. I hate his guts.” IMO, you have every right to hate a FW’s guts, but you can’t slop your grief on minors. Being your FW’s PR agency is worse. And there are a lot of terrible messages out there to do just that.
When my daughter was 16, she parroted to me MY D day / affair time line STORY as told to her by her dad. I said –daughter, that’s not what happened…your dad had another girlfriend while I was pregnant with you and it was wrong. He left us both right after your delivery and went to live with AP, leaving you and your brother. Daughter answers, That’s not what dad told me how things happened and I believe him.
Sadly , I was just too late with the highlighted details my X cheater husband had already told her for years, unknown to me. She also loved the wifetress for all the fun dress up, cruises and bald face spoiling of this princess child. My son was not treated the same and was bullied by his dad as I was. So siblings were treated differently at visits.Yes I was sane but it will take more maturity for my precious daughter to figure out the real truth. I did not get ahead of the narrative.
16 is a very young and vulnerable time and some people esp at that age, just want to be on the “winning” side. Your ex and wifetress look that way esp with all the baubles they can buy people with. Hopefully your daughter will grow out of this as she matures and perhaps experiences some of the treachery life can offer herself. I saw it not just in romantic relationships, but in friendships and work so perhaps experience will teach her awareness and empathy. Right now she’s taking the path of least resistance which unfortunately, many people do. Many people a lot older than her will take the side that seems the strongest and most convenient.
This week I flew into Calif to visit with my daughter and husband and 3 kids for Thanksgiving. Tonight she asked me a few questions about her cheater dad and his wifetress!! I sat in the car as she drove and told her my story. Not all the details but my side( grandson was in the back seat). She listened and asked more questions and I was honest and direct. My story is coming out as she asks. I am thrilled to be able to share now. Im hearing that her own husband is having mental heart issues and I hate to think that she will repeat my life. My daughter revealed that my second cheater of a 35 year marriage was the reason she disliked me. I modeled Chump behavior to her by staying with him. That was her disrespect of me all these years as well as her dads side of the story( i deserved it, we were not a match etc). You were right, disrespect of me the Chump. My behavior reverberates as a Chump and I modeled that until 2022 when I filed from #2 serial cheater. We have the hope now of a closer relationship. Thank you CN and CL for your kind outside looking in thoughts and encouragement. The children need the truth.
Wow, that sounds very hopeful! I’m glad that some cracks are forming here and I hope it leads you both closer together. And I also hope she’s not learning through experience, but a spouse’s mental problems…well, I’ve been there too and it’s sadly enlightening. There’s nothing like personal experience to open the mind. But let’s hope it’s all manageable. At least she knows that whatever problems she has, you will be there for her like you always have been. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving with your family!!! You really can’t buy love.
Thank you for your reply Mehitable! It’s been 34 years since my first cheater. And 1 year since my last. Maybe it’s never too late to model mighty
One of the things your situation shows me – us – is how long lasting the effects of adultery and abandonment are. It’s decades later now and you’re still dealing with the effects of your daughter trying to understand what happened to you and her dad. These actions have very long lasting consequences, both on the psyches and behaviors of the chumps, and also of the kids involved.
It is NEVER too late, 2xc! I think you’ve been mighty all along considering what you’ve had to deal with with 2 cheaters and having to raise your kids pretty much without their dad from small childhood. That’s incredibly mighty. Don’t ever underestimate or down play yourself. It’s great that your daughter has finally reached an age where she seems to be understanding things or is at least willing to ask. That sounds like the beginning of a new relationship with her, which is wonderful. I think it will get even better with time.
It’s never too late to model dignity. And you can tell her the regrets you have for your prior decisions, why you chose to be that way, what you’ve learned and how you’ve changed.