Infidelity… It’s So Much More

Yesterday, AllOutOfKibble inadvertently gave us a Friday challenge when she wrote that infidelity is not a singular thing. It’s beyond extracurricular boinking. (I am reminded of Esther Perel tweeting at me that my case was “so much more” than cheating. So, like, King’s X I suppose.)

AllOutOfKibble writes:

The first thing I notice is that you speak of infidelity as a singular thing, as if it is not attached to anything else. It’s attached to so many other things. Here are three because I am late for work. I am sure there are more.

Financials. Who pays for the things involved in an affair? The hotel room? Little gifts? Meals? Vacations? The apartment for the mistress? If two people are married n the US then half the money spent on a schmoopie belongs to the chump.

Respect. People frequently confuse cheating with an open marriage. In an open marriage there are rules and guidelines, parameters where everyone knows what is going on. With cheating at least one spouse is kept in the dark and does not know what is going on. The chump is disrespected by the cheater. The chump can’t make an informed decision about their own life and what they want because, many times, what the cheater enjoys about the whole set up, is deceit. They like the whole I know something you don’t know. That’s not equitable or fair. If someone vows in front of others to fore sake all others and they don’t how can you trust them again after they have shown that they are a liar?

Health. Here in the US spouses get to make all sorts of decisions for each other, including when to remove someone from life support. Do you want the your spouse sitting there ready to pull the plug because you are such a drag on his and schmoopie’s relationship? There is also the issue of sexually transmitted infections. I have an aquaintance who found out she was HIV positive while pregnant. She was infected by her cheating husband. I am proud to say they are no longer married.

Anyone want to add to my list?

So what do you say, CN? What are all the gifts that keep on giving?

And don’t be distressed by this list. I think I will follow it up with How Does Your Life Improve When You Leave a Cheater? Tell me, how should we be reframing the infidelity narrative beyond The Great Schmoopie Love That Cannot Be Denied?

TGIF!

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Struggling (but doing a lot better)
Struggling (but doing a lot better)
6 years ago

Cheating is attached to depriving the children of two full-parents. This is not what I signed up for when I got married, not what I wanted for my children. Their father was off with schmoopie and missed birthday parties. proms, performances, games etc. Now that we’re divorced, time sharing and separate vacations have been inflicted on the kids permanently.

The Gaining a Life part here? Modeling to my children not to let anyone treat you like shit. Seeing pride in their eyes that I’m happy and strong. Having a closer bond with my kids in our time alone together than I otherwise would have

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago

????????????????????????????????X10000

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
6 years ago

Well said, MotherChumper! Hahahahaha!

woolwasovermyeyes
woolwasovermyeyes
6 years ago

This. I am still in the midst of my separation and what kills me the most is the Christmas tradition I was hoping to keep my family that I truly valued in mine growing up. Just my parents and brother at home on Christmas Day. Now I don’t get to do that for my children because the it’s not fair parent HAS to see the children on Christmas Day, so Christmas Day for the rest of my life will be split. I’m still very SMAD about this.

Their father ruins every special family moment we try to have together. The kids are only 3 & 5 so there’s a lot of contact between us. Just last night instead of talking up our older ones great progress report at school he screamed and yelled at him until he cried and then NEVER apologizes. This then makes my routine chaos – I do 90% of everything and always have.

The fact that he expects me to give up 50% of my time with my children that I have cared for on my own for almost their entire lives is asinine, but the legal system requires me to do what is in the best interest of my children – it would only be seeing him when absolutely necessary IMO.

The final kick in the ass is that I have to deal with my ex for the entirety of my life because of choosing to have children with someone who is different than they led me to believe.

KibbleFree_MightyMe
KibbleFree_MightyMe
6 years ago

WWOME – you have to document ALL of the verbal and emotional abuse that he’s inflicting on your children. Screaming at a 5 year old means he doesn’t have the emotional capacity to parent effectively, and it can have long-term repercussions on your baby. You might even record a short video of your son coloring or playing with toys and you ask him off-camera what happened and how it makes him feel. Let him say it in his own words what happens when he’s at that asswipe’s house. Start taking him to an individual counselor who specializes in childhood trauma and divorce (mine is fantastic with my almost 18 yo daughter and has seen her since she was 14) and then you’ll have a professional record of how this moron is emotionally and verbally abusing your kids. Want at least a fighting chance to keep your kids from being exposed to his abuse? Document.

Because I kept my daughter in counseling each month and developed a bulletproof record of what his behavior an emotional abuse does to her psychologically and emotionally, my daughter has had zero contact with her dbag sperm donor in almost three years now and has THRIVED because of it. I found an amazing counselor who has a $65 flat fee, and doesn’t hassle or bother with insurance. Just $65 per visit. As a single parent this was worth the investment. We’re at the very end (final 1.5 months) of our BS journey with the court & child custody system, but you’re just at the beginning of a L O N G 13 and 15 more years. Make him have to jump through hoops. We all know they’re QUITTERS.

My lawyer and I made it harder for the dbag to see my daughter in that, he refused to pay and go to psychotherapy for his violent nature and background, it means that we’re free of him. In my “addendum to the child custody agreement” it states that a $150/session with a specific-named counselor is the only environment in which he can possibly see her. He’s a quitter. He won’t do it when there’s money to be spent on anything else, so we’re free of him. Document, individual counseling for your child, and show that pattern of verbal and emotional abuse to a minor. In the US, age 5 is still considered a “toddler” when buying clothing. Really? Abusing a toddler? Stop him.

I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, but use that anger to find a way to move forward and protect your kids from him now, before his abuse takes hold of their idea of what “normal” relationships are. (((Hugs)))

Honeyandthehomewrecker
Honeyandthehomewrecker
6 years ago

“Make him have to jump through hoops. We all know they’re quitters.” One of the best pieces of advice I have ever seen regarding these image-management centered shallow narc ‘dads’. My ex was confronted by me on some strange behavior, spilled his guts like a taun-taun about an affair he’d been having while working out of town, and moved to the opposite coast all in 20 hours. Left me with our 1 and 2 year old babies with no money and no plan. This was 4 years ago, almost to the day.

I have no co-parent. It’s all on me. At first, this enraged me to no end. But the more time I spend here and in therapy, the more I realize how lucky this makes me and my children. He is false. A hologram. A promise of a real person, but you take a closer look and realize he’s just a cardboard cutout. A FAKE. So while heartbreaking, yes, my kids are better off that he is as far away as possible.

He took me to court for custody last year out of the blue. It was to try to get child support reduced, not because he suddenly had some epiphany about his failures as a father. So my lawyer and I set up a series of hoops. Reunification therapy, here. Short duration trips that could turn into long ones, here. Then, if he did those things which were in the best interest of the mental health of his children, he could fly them out during summers and some holidays to spend time with him and his sparkly new family on the opposite coast. He was shocked I would require that of him. He thought he could just drop in 3 years after walking out on them, and just grab his kids like they were nothing more than some terriers he could toss in a crate. Entitlement off the freakin charts.

In my head, I knew he would never do hoops. In my heart, I thought maybe I’ve built this guy up to be such a monster that I haven’t considered the possibility that he actually might surprise me and step up for a relationship with these children. Maybe I was wrong. These are our CHILDREN. He might…

Nope. No hoops. It was the final test run of ‘when they show you that they suck, believe them.’ I am finally a true believer. He SUCKS.

brit
brit
6 years ago

woolwasovermyeyes~family traditions, especially Christmas I hoped to keep with my own family. As well as a tradition of an intact loving family. I looked forward to us as a couple, reminiscing and sharing our adventures to our children/grandchildren.
I hate that our son’s foundation has been destroyed. Our children’s lives have been imploded with splitting time, cheater’s lies and lack of integrity. The stress of splitting time will be something they will have to live with forever. Life is difficult enough without Cheater making it more difficult for everyone. I feel guilty for breeding with such a poor role model and father figure.

Cheater also led me to believe he would be a good husband, father and family man. He’s an imposter.

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
6 years ago

One more vote for (well against, really) the invisible parent phenomenon. While he was still there and cheating (and drinking and drugging), my ex could not be bothered with any day to day parenting and did not choose to attend parent-teacher conferences, chess tournaments, school plays and presentations, and on and on. And now that he is off being the swinging bachelor again, well, you can guess just how often he shows up for meaningful events in my child’s life. Never. Emphasis on MY CHILD, because BAM (BrokeAss Mountain) was merely a sperm donor. His focus was and remains on himself and his secret intrigues and his own adult life. Whereas my child has been my number one concern and love since the moment I knew he was to be.

Slightly off topic, but the notion that the devoted parent must give any visitation time at all to the unfaithful and shitty parent is the biggest crime. The legal system means well, but I cannot agree that joint custody (particularly full 50/50) is in a child’s best interest given what a low priority that child was shown to be over and over. Makes me so mad … It is one final theft from the chump, added on to a long list of wrongs.

UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
6 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

^^^^^ THIS^^^

Cancer Chump
Cancer Chump
6 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

My ex was basically an invisible parent during our marriage. He also could not be bothered with day to day parenting, I could not count on him for after school pick ups if it was not his scheduled night (because on those nights he headed straight to the bar after work), he never attended school conferences, never went to school parties…but unlike yours, suddenly he goes to parties and every other Friday has lunch at school with our daughter.

It pisses me off!! Where was this during the marriage?!

Then I calm down and look closer…he still doesn’t do any day to day parenting, other than driving her to and from school. On the one school night he has her he does the bare minimum of homework. He doesn’t encourage her in her school work, only sports. She knows she can’t talk to him about feelings. She even told me once she never wants to tell him if she is upset with his actions for fear that he will feel bad.

He has argued with me over who should carry her insurance because he wants to save money, even though him saving money means she loses her therapist.

All he is doing now is impression management for the pregnant OW. “Look at me! I’m a good dad! I have linch with my daughter! I play with her every other weekend!” Right now everyone buys it, including my daughter. I can only hope that some day soon they all see through it.

OutOfSparkles
OutOfSparkles
6 years ago
Reply to  Cancer Chump

CancerChump – mine is very similar. Never did any day to day parenting, never came to doctors/therapist/school appointments (there have been many for both my girls), rarely attended performances, hadn’t been on holiday with us for more than 3 years when he left, and spent his time at home in his office, away from us all (and he worked pretty long hours). Initially when he left and he was so intoxicated with his new life this continued – then he realised it made him look shit to OWife and her cronies, so started to come to appointments which was really just very annoying as he had nothing to contribute, not knowing my children, except image management for himself. My elder daughter already had issues with him prior to his leaving for his lack of being present – and now has no relationship with him and has requested he doesn’t come to her medical appointments.
Younger daughter sounds very like yours though – he has her every other Weds night and every other weekend. She refuses to take her homework to his for him to help her and when I offered for him to be able to take her to her riding lesson (his wife has started riding where my daughter’s pony is kept – long story) she said no. She knows it isn’t deep, or really safe, and I know is just playing along at being the good prop now as she doesn’t want to disappoint him. She is reluctant to say much to me about him as she knows I am angry with him, even though I don’t badmouth him (although talks about everything else to me) but she did say to me a while ago that she was worried he was going to love OWife’s sons more than her (he got married 5 months after leaving as we weren’t married). I don’t know how much he really loves anyone – certainly no one anywhere near as much as himself, not even his children. I think she is still craving his approval more than she is expecting anything from him. It makes me sad to see, and I can see her becoming a little more uncomfortable with it as time goes on, but whilst she is still willing to go along with it I feel it is her journey. I know that I am where trust and safety intimacy are for her and am glad that she can feel that somewhere. Seems it is similar for many of us.

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
6 years ago
Reply to  Cancer Chump

Yes … my little boy is not so little anymore, but guess who he shares his deepest teenage concerns and private sex-related questions with … not his dad. They know deeply which parent truly has their back, understands and cares for them, … they know.

Grace
Grace
6 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

Yes. They do know. Even if you wonder sometimes and it seems like cheater has fooled them into thinking he is a good parent, the kids know. Mine are now college aged and have over the years expressed their appreciation of me and their clarity around the sperm donor.

Stay focused on your children, when his new one arrives his mask will slip and his truth will show. Keep things sane under your watch, your kids will need the stability you have created for them.

nomorecamping
nomorecamping
6 years ago
Reply to  Grace

For elementary and middle school I took our daughter to and from school, attended all of her plays, awards ceremonies, etc. Stbx attended a handful of these events and occasionally took her to school if I was sick. (Her school was by my work in another city). I helped her with all of her homework. He never helped.

He left us when she’s in 2nd half of 8th grade and then he comes to her piano recital at school – with his 22 y.o. girlfriend. Twice. No shame whatsoever.

He also wanted me to stay on car insurance etc., with him to get discounts. He wanted me to file married and jointly to reap monetary benefits – while he’s living with someone else.

Uh, no. Let’s get this crap separated – I don’t care if I have to pay more. He was so upset. Unbelievable. Then when I filed married separately – oh man was he furious! Duh – we have been separate for a year, I’m filing separate.

Just like a selfish narc – destroy family and expect destroyed family to cater to him while he’s in a new life, new home, new gf, new baby…..

Cancer chump – it took almost two years for our daughter to really see through it and be thoroughly disgusted – but horribly hurt. She still struggles with his narrative, though, that I was so ‘mean’ he had to move in with schmoopie who “saved” him. She wants to believe her dad. He was the world to her. She says she tries not to hate him. I told her don’t hate him, but hate what he’s done. Hating people is never good.

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  nomorecamping

I would say, ‘don’t hate him, but see him clearly and know what to expect from him’.

Living in reality always works out better, in the end, despite what the delusional cheaters think!

Grace
Grace
6 years ago
Reply to  nomorecamping

Oh yes, the financials are the consequences cheaters seem to think don’t apply to them. It’s quite conveinant to be “Married Filing Jointly” and/or “letting them pay for everything” while living separately. It’s a trap that benefits ONLY the cheater. I agree to get shit separated as soon as you can, otherwise you’re simply helping fund their other lifestyle. The one that you’re not supposed to know about – that does not include the day to day stuff of running YOUR household or being available to you or the kids for stuff like homework, ballet recitals, soccer games, honor awards and all the stuff a spouse/parent should do. They can’t have it both ways, unless chumps let them and that’s the part we all learn here on this site – how to show up fully, how to recognize that we have been taken advantage of and it’s OK to get pissed and put a stop to it.

This site is an invaluable tool box. The stories are all slightly different but at the core we are all here for the same reason and by educating ourselves and connecting the dots in our own lives that show us cheaters all act similar, we can use others experiences and pain to avoid going down a path that will inevitably end in pain for us. Is it really worth suffering one more minute just to keep the cheater happy? Trust they suck. They wouldn’t even know if happy kicked them in the ass (if you’re like me I know you’ve been happy ass kicking for years) so go ahead and reach deep into this tool box of chump nation and pull out your mighty.

Try mighty ass kicking out, they won’t even know what kicked them. It’s even better than gray rocking 😉

Goaheadandjump
Goaheadandjump
6 years ago
Reply to  nomorecamping

We have very similar stories. I’m going through the filing jointly thing right now. Does it benefit me to file separately? He still pays for everything.

Soyouseeit2
Soyouseeit2
6 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

Exactly on part two… Who in the hell came up with that study and why is it used? A cheating Judge?
Each situation needs to be based on what that other parent is really like… Disinterested and spiteful or just taking kids for monetary gain is a crime in its self never mind the ongoing emotional toll placing kids with the person who wants little to nothing to do with them.
Judges need to be slapped awake sometimes.

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  Soyouseeit2

Guardian ad Litems are quite likely to have been lawyers in a former life, and have very little training in either child development, parenting, or domestic abuse. Their recommendations are based on erroneous stereotypes and “findings” that children raised by single parents will end up heroin addicts, high school dropouts, and teenage parents. Judges will typically follow the recommendations of GALs because they have even less training in child development.

Some states, like NH, actually have laws that state a child needs 2 parents.

This should be round 2 of the Chump Revolution–insisting courts make more informed decisions about custody in the best interest of the children.

scaredandconfused
scaredandconfused
6 years ago

Yes, the separate vacations. I’m just 3 months from Dday and far from resolving this situation but nothing makes me cry faster than picturing myself at the biannual extended family beach trip with my sisters and their husbands playing on the beach with their kids, and my son and daughter being the only 2 out of 9 with no Dad there. What kind of sexy fling is worth doing this to your family, Esther Perel? Another thing I’ll add is that treatment of the spouse rarely stays kind. My cheater told me he thought he could keep that life separate and it would make him a better husband but he just resented me more and more because I became a barrier/reminder of guilt which put a damper on all the fun he was having. He has treated me progressively more poorly Year after year.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago

“he thought he could keep that life separate and it would make him a better husband but he just resented me more and more because I became a barrier/reminder of guilt which put a damper on all the fun he was having. He has treated me progressively more poorly Year after year.”

I believe this is what happened to me. He may have thought he could balance his evil duality and not abuse me, but it didnt work. He likely felt some guilt and to overcome that, he discerned reasons why I deserved his behavior. His anger and hostility was a mystery to me for years but when I learned of the serial cheating, it was as if all the pieces suddenly fit together.

The idea that he would cheat (for years and years) then be mean to me over his cheating is such a giant shit sandwich, it overwhelms me. I will forever wonder how much of his work travel schedule (which really made life hard) was worsened to accommodate side-fucks.

The time when he was way up Susans ass, he forgot he had kids and during that time, my mom was in a bad car crash (helicopter to trauma center->ICU, vent, coma) and he never went to the hospital with me…he stayed home and chatted with Schmoops. He failed me terribly.

Anotheronebitesthedust
Anotheronebitesthedust
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Unicornomore, I relate to your ordeal.
Almost 3 years since finding out my husband was leading a double life of visiting sex workers (including hid ‘favourite’) I still marvel every now and then at the escalation of callousness he was exhibiting.
I didn’t really think of it the way you described. You are spot on, the resentment was building and the kids and I were increasingly becoming an obstacle to his escapades.
The coldness of his heart was becoming more and more evident.
He abandoned us when a cyclone was blowing in. My family and even his family, were concerned about me driving on the highway to get him to the airport so he could get to a conference (which I now know included an escort he would have had lined up). I begged him to turn around and come home as it was a 5 hour drive to the city. He feigned caring then said ‘Oh you really think so??? You guys will be alright.
Usually I’d be fine, we often get summer cyclone warnings, but this time I genuinely wanted him home for the kids and I.
Even his sister on the other side of the country said to him ‘oh nice, just leave your family while a cyclone is blowing in’! It was obvious to her the level of ‘I could care less’ and she was miles away.
He was starting to make more and more reasons to withhold money from me, he was getting more and more critical of me but on the sly, I would catch him screwing his nose up at me behind my back, at my breasts, my skin, (I’m white) and so is he, but seems he was into much younger and exotic. The list go’s on.
Thing is, now that we are working towards separating/divorcing, he keeps saying what an arsehole he was, he is having trouble dealing with losing me, he loves me, he now works just to take care of the kids and I, it’s the only reason he gets up in the morning, then slips in the old guilt card every now and then ‘with I’m working so hard I could just have a heart attack tomorrow’ (He is 44).
I figure it’s the impression management going on as he runs a business in a regional town.
Anyway, yiu get the picture.
He still confuses the shit out of me with some actions of remorse, yet he will not express any sincere remorse. If pushed into a corner he will come out saying he loved every minute of it, he only lines 25 and under, or some other cruel comment, then deny or explain it away.,
I have been a Chump with a capital C trying to reconcile the two men I married within the same man, doing the pick me dance and trying to understand why Inmet someone disrespect me for so long.
Therein lyes part of the answer, the attempt at compartmentalising, so every time I called him on his behaviour, the gaslighting and denying made me question my truth. Until I didn’t know what to trust and so badly wanted to believe that it was the good husband that was real after 17 years of marriage and 3 kids. Ugghhh.

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago

Let his remorse be expressed with money. Have him sign over everything in your name. Then get a post-nup, outlining your spousal support and so on. Have him give you a full disclosure of everything. Say “Faithful and True.” Meanwhile, make sure that you are taking care of yourself in everyway. His remorse might be to distract you while he does unthinkable, despicable things with your money.

I really believe that the cheater grows exponentially worse with every extramarital sexual experience. They lose their taste for normal and only want rotten. It seems like that is what happened with your cheater.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Sin changes people…incrementally. When they start they likely have boundaries they are sure they will never cross…until the day they do. He is as awful as the worst thing he has done to you. He chose his actions and he liked them (I realize that mine seemed to have a preference for women who had never birthed babies) this monster is who he is

lemonbirch
lemonbirch
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Duped I am with you exactly. It was the best relationship I ever had — truly a beautiful thing. How he could have just said Nah — don’t want this anymore — has plagued me incessantly. There are only two possibilities: He was lying the whole way through and it didn’t really mean anything to him; or he is twisted and destructive in ways I never knew existed.

Pick one. Pick both. It still sucks.

duped
duped
6 years ago
Reply to  lemonbirch

I cannot get my head around it either. It’s sad. I was reading someone else’s comments when she mentioned she has to go out there now and date and there are such unattractive and gross (my words) men out there and then you have to wonder what their motives are…are they liars, players, predators…etc (my thoughts) I guess the ho bags our husbands went with (all though I don’t have absolute concrete proof) were truly getting ‘a good guy’ good enough to try to lure him from their wives. But it takes two to tango..

duped
duped
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Unicornnomore
We had no kids either, specifically because he ‘did not want kid” why, because he already had an agenda from day one. I suspect that he had it all planned to be with his golddigger from the moment she was willing to rent a beach house near our house, then obtain a huge mansion on the water all the while she would have had a 2 year old…who buys a 5 bedroom house as a single mom with a 2 year old? Red Flag. And her son coincides with the years of our marriage? Red flag, And all the deceit going on all these years and the perfect opportunities to hide the whore because he worked in an industry that he was on all kinds of great trips, allowing him to travel and all the conferences, etc etc. So him and his whore had the perfect love/romantic getaways on his dime and most definitely could show her a great lifestyle, and hide her in hotel rooms when it was ‘business’ trips, etc etc. I am being tortured by the fallout in finding it all out. All the while the fraud and con handed out by him, wasting my precious years of having a family. He had a great great life. And the whore shared in that great life. I believe she came in to a lot of his money that I believe he hid with her. All part of the deceit and fraud to be able to be with her in the end. In the years preceding the end of his life, he was very distant and was always thinking. He was nearing retirement. Whorepants was waiting it out and in collusion with him. I know she wanted him to leave me, of course she did…she was laying him secretly all these years, now she wanted a commitment. But then he died. I suffer now deciphering everything that went on and knowing I was being completely fooled and deceived and knowing I am the laughing stock probably. The aftermath is ugly. I dropped everyone and cleared the slate. Nobody is your friend when this is going on. But It plagues my mind that this could have been so good, so wonderful. He was a ‘great guy” but he chose to deceive me for no reason.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago

Oh yes, fuckwit wanted me to jump up and run off on romantic getaways with him, which I did many times but with 5 children, it wasn’t easy. I would worry about arranging for their activities while I was away while he would just pawn everything off on his parents. Yes, they could stay there and they were “safe” but it was hardly ideal. I remember one trip when I came back and 8 year old had not bathed or brushed his teeth in 5 days. I said “didn’t Grammy have you do these things before bed? No, she just lay on the couch watching t.v. and we put ourselves to bed. Not the end of the world, but don’t most 8 year olds require some reminders and assistance?

I am sure I have said this before but fuckwit created a travel log for discovery that shows 70 nights away with schmoopie in just the first 9 months since he left. On Valentine’s Day he sent 15yo and 13 yo identical email happy Valentine’s Day. I love you. I miss you. I hope to see you soon.(hasn’t seen either in over a year). So yesterday, I was talking to someone and she told me she had seen fuckwit at the airport on Valentine’s Day. Going out on a limb and guessing he was off on a romantic getaway with schmoopie. Point is Schmoopie comes ahead of the kids. Why isn’t this an obvious atrocity to the courts? Lawyer keeps saying the judges are about father’s rights. What right? The right to mindfuck your kid?

Ok, I need to cool down.

icandothis18
icandothis18
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

I hear you. My ex puts his AP in front of the kids and their feelings all the time. Our son needed a MRI and it was scheduled on Valentines Day evening. Ex didn’t bother showing up. He said why should he just drive there and back. I’m sure he had plans with his ho. Sad that he says he wants the kids in his life but he fails to bend over backwards displaying this.

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

Do not, under any circumstances, think the courts are interested in social justice. The courts are like bots–they follow simple rules like 50/50 custody, kids need 2 parents, just because a person has cheated and run off with marital funds doesn’t make them a bad parent.

Think the courts will take into account domestic abuse in custody decisions? Probably not.

If you are relieved that your X runs off with Schmoopie and doesn’t see the kids for 3 years, because you think custody is now free and clear, think again. The fuckwit can (and may) resurface to seek 50/50 (or 100%) custody of those children you have been raising. Will the courts encourage wayward fuckwit to get custody? Most probably.

The best any parent can do is document, document, document (a) ANY incident of domestic abuse (even verbal or emotional), and (b) missed visitation appointments or long absences from the children.

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Incensed by injustice in custody cases? Visit Lundy Bancroft’s site (below) for more information, and to join a movement to address court deficiencies:

http://lundybancroft.com/

Geode
Geode
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I’ve been reading his book this week. A must for anyone who had a controlling abusuve partner. I wish I’d read this before I married again. I found both my controlling first husband and my abusive second husband in the first 50 pages. While it might be difficult reading for young people, a few sections can be pulled out and used to start a dialogue. I’m doing that with my teens.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

No, you are exactly right to be hot about this. Pretty much the same here. Except they procreated. Because he wanted a mini-me. Guess how much the new baby comes before the two teenagers? They are so hurt and confused. They had never met the homewrecker and therefore did not even know she was expecting until… Bam. Today you have a half-brother. You’ll be great at babysitting. Yikes.

AlohaFreedom
AlohaFreedom
6 years ago

A positive: the new traditions that the kids and I have formed really mean a lot to me. (Sunday morning cinnamon rolls, putting up the Christmas tree that day after Thanksgiving, hot cocoa every single time it snows, etc.)

…and a lot of the “fun” things we did together (when cheater stbxh would grace us with his presence) are actually fun now without his adult temper tantrums and fits of yelling in the car.

OhHellNo
OhHellNo
6 years ago
Reply to  AlohaFreedom

Oh my goodness, yes. I would beg and beg for him to be involved; then on the few occasions he would join us for a family event, he would be MISERABLE and make me wonder, “Why did I even want him around in the first place?!”

So glad that’s over!

Sometimes now he will ask me to do things together “as a family” (we’re NOT a family. Your choice.)

Oh HELL No!

12YearsWasted
12YearsWasted
6 years ago
Reply to  AlohaFreedom

I love this, although if we had hot chocolate whenever it snows where I live I’d gain 15 lbs over the winter from drinking it alone 😀

middlefingersup
middlefingersup
6 years ago

I feel the same. My child is currently struggling and I wonder how much is b/c of the back and forth between houses. I never wanted this for my child.

You are right about modeling. I’m glad my child won’t continue to see my ex yell at me. Though now it’s more covert, his disrespectful treatment of me. I’d be a sh*t parent to tell my child about any of it, so I have to just deal on my own. I want to, at some point, model a healthy romantic relationship for my child (as my ex is incapable of it), but then I get tangled up in my own skein of f’dupness. That maybe I’m also incapable of having a healthy relationship, especially after all I’ve been through.

Giddy Eaglr
Giddy Eaglr
6 years ago

Congrats to you for being able to keep it together. I didn’t — actually I couldn’t — and I’m paying for it now. My 16yo daughter was initially compassionate, but grew angry as the months rolled on, felt I was weak and playing the victim. We had a spousal support battle going on for a year and she was furious with me for my rage and anger. She can’t understand why I can’t just magically revive my career after 16 years out of the work force. She’s now reunited with her father and I am now the bad guy. Sigh.

nomorecamping
nomorecamping
6 years ago
Reply to  Giddy Eaglr

Giddy Eaglr – Sorry to hear you are going through that. Our daughter was never compassionate towards me. Stbx left and convinced her he had to go move in with girl 25 years younger who saved him from me as I was such a horrible person (behind closed doors). Two months after he left, stbx wanted to take our daughter camping – so he came and got the camper and our daughter. After he brought the camper back, I realized he also had his girlfriend on the trip, too. In the camper that I was making the payments on and paying the insurance for. After he brought the camper back, I went inside and felt furious. I picked up a motorcycle helmet and threw it a few times, bending some blinds on the kitchen window. Later, stbx and daughter were in the camper talking about what a bitch I was for doing that. That really hurt to see my daughter text her friend that I was a bitch who bent the blinds in the camper. (Instead of her dad being a heel for throwing away his family, I was the bad one for bending blinds). After I was the one who was involved in all of her school work, went to school awards, plays, helped with homework…. Two years later now she doesn’t want to see him as he puts his gf and baby before her and she sees the lies, etc. But she’s still not compassionate towards me.

I would ask stbx what was going on before he left and he would claim nothing! Everything was fine! I was so insecure, blah blah blah. It’s just like others have said here – he tried to juggle two lives but turned meaner and meaner towards me.

After he left and I stood up for myself changing locks, getting a lawyer, etc., then he really got angry. His doormat was not being compliant. His continued threats of what he was going to make me lose and accusations got wilder and wilder as I did not give in to him.

Here’s a funny one: When we met we both had next to nothing as we were both starting over in life. Well, he told me how I had this all planned 17 years ago – I snagged him knowing that in 17 years he’d be making six figures and then I’d take him for it! Oh yeah, dummy, I’m going to pay a lawyer 30k to get some of your assets and be a single mom dragging an innocent kid through hell. What a totally awesome plan!

They always project – he was the one who snagged me knowing I had job skills and would help him get back on his feet. Then I was no longer of use, so into the garbage I go.

Garbage is a lot more pleasant to be around than him. Lol

Elsie
Elsie
6 years ago
Reply to  nomorecamping

nomorecamping,

Hats off to you! I would have broken a lot more than bend blinds.

I feel bad for your daughter not treating you well.

Nobody2U
Nobody2U
6 years ago
Reply to  nomorecamping

My stbx told me he married me for my earning potential..(I was in nursing school at the time..) he had treated me like garbage since becoming a sahm because I was no longer contributing financially to HIS retirement dream…so on top of him cheating, lying, stealing money from me I now get to hope I escape with half his “dream” a shred of dignity and none of my future certain and at least 10 years knocked off my life expectancy from the stress…

onthehill
onthehill
6 years ago

Yes, the modeling was the first thing that came to mind for me.

When my ex was having his emotional affair (I never caught him in the physical part – if there was one) – he treated me like shit. At the time, my son was about 4-5.

The one example I remember well: I found a patch of baby rabbits in our yard. My ex insisted I get ahold of them and raise them with our son so that he would learn about how to raise animals, and watch a live being grow from birth. This was a suggestion that was very much out of left-field from him. He was NOT into this kind of thing at all. He liked animals – especially dogs – but didn’t like them to THIS extent. I was very taken-back.

I had a LOT of misgivings about the prospect of doing this in my gut – and I AM an experienced animal lover. He just started yelling at me – part of which was “how hard is this!” Well,,,, I called the local wildlife center, and they suggested that I NOT do this – that hand-raising wild rabbits is extremely hard and they don’t often make it. My gut feeling was right.

So, I got the courage up to tell my ex what the center had said; and, he did nothing but scream at me. “What could possibly bring (me) to the decision to call a wildlife center? (You) can’t just do something I suggest ONCE without questioning it?” And so on,,,,,,,,,,,

When I looked back on that – I was set up.

Of course, I RARELY questioned him – Over years of treatment like this, I was afraid to. It’s years upon years of treatment like this that truly made me a Varsity player on the Boiled Frog squad. 🙁

NoMoreShitSandwiches
NoMoreShitSandwiches
6 years ago
Reply to  onthehill

What. A. Dick. ????

Letitsnow
Letitsnow
6 years ago
Reply to  onthehill

It was really to keep you busy and distracted from what he was doing. My ex bought a $1500 full bred choc lab hunting dog puppy, one more thing for me to take care of when he was busy with the howorker. When we split, he suggested that the puppy stay with me and my older dog. I said no f—night way, that was his dog.

peacekeeper
peacekeeper
6 years ago

middlefingersup,
I hope so much that one day you “will be able to model a healthy romantic relationship”, for your child.
“I’m glad my child won’t continue to hear my ex yell at me.”
So much in this one little sentence.
You ✋️STOPed this from happening, again and again!
YOU are mighty!
Many hugs to you!

middlefingersup
middlefingersup
6 years ago
Reply to  peacekeeper

I’m not crying, you’re crying.

Seriously, thank you. Its been so long since an adult has said nice things about me it feels. I do get some applause from my child when I parallel park, but that’s not quite the same ;p

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago

Parallel parking takes skill. You are allowed to be proud of that too. 🙂

An no matter how hard our cheaters tried to convince us we were losers, at least we can take pride in the fact that we are better than they are because we have a moral compass and our integrity is still in tact.

Tuesday is Coming
Tuesday is Coming
6 years ago

Listen, if the people on this website are any indication, CHUMPS ARE FABULOUS. And THAT is why they got their hooks into us in the first place. Kind, respected, caring, witty, reasonable, people (who can fucking parallel park like champs!). Cheers to CN and now finally understanding how our big hearts can get us into big trouble.

Narcs don’t go looking for crappy people to con. YOU MUST BE PRETTY AWESOME CHUMPINRECOVERY!

I echo what several people have brought up before. We chumps need to have a national party and celebrate each other and our survival through unfathomable shit. I vote Vegas. (There’s a private forum thread about this somewhere.)

Christy Russell
Christy Russell
6 years ago

Yesss

KB22
KB22
6 years ago

Narcs and selfish jerks rarely pursue (initially anyway) their own kind so yeah the chumps on this board should know they are a special kind of wonderful which is why the defects pursued them in the first place. The defects then try to tear them down……don’t let them.

left him at the airport
left him at the airport
6 years ago

Forget the national party – let’s have an international one! Come to Australia in May for CL’s “Leave a Cheater Gain A Life: A Day with Tracy Schorn” event on 25 May in Newcastle!! I’m going ????????‍♀️

I’ve never been to the States. But if y’all are gonna have a meet up, and if I could get the time off work, I would come! ????????

PhysicsGal
PhysicsGal
6 years ago

I want to add to financials. Unpaid child support – the double/triple whammy it is on your pocketbook. During child support arrears means no money now (immediate effect in everyone) which in turn, means no money to invest in your own financial future (read retirement – long term effect for you) and outlay of cash to “chase” deadbeat (immediate and long term effects for both you and your kids).

Mental health – as a single parent, you are both disciplinarian and comforter. It’s a difficult role

Time Robber – custody arrangements mean you have to miss out time with your beloved children and the kicker, hand them over to dysfunctional Foty and his newest whimsy. Dual edge sword because foty’s Only concern is himself and will drop responsibility to visitation for any and all pursuits that satisfy him.

SuperDuperChump
SuperDuperChump
6 years ago
Reply to  PhysicsGal

Financials was a huge, huge part of my chump recovery.

Dave Ramsey states that money is THE thread that is interwoven in EVERY aspect of our lives. Finances created a domino effect for every aspect of my life until I lost EVERYTHING. Health insurance, truck, business, work tools, retirement, etc. I couldn’t stop the mudslide of devastation.

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
6 years ago
Reply to  PhysicsGal

Hang in there, woolwasovermyeyes.

I cannot promise you things will get better. My own experience is that they remain hard–though the way they are “hard” changes from year to year and from child to child.

The odds that your EX will grow less interested in maintaining his share of the custody are, however, in your favor. I think on some level we will have to deal with our EXs for decades, but 6 years ago when I left and my EX was insisting on 50/50 custody, I’d have never guessed where we’d be today (I have 100 percent legal custody).

Taking care of kids is hard–and people prone to cheating are not likely to sustain the level of responsibility required to get kids to school with two shoes and a lunch and homework and all their innoculations up to date and a signed permission slip for the field trip and cleats for the after school sport and a water bottle, etc. etc. etc. Some of these cheaters will leave their kids entirely and others will slowly use less and less of their time.

Unfortunately, the most common pattern may be the refusal to maintain a pattern. In February they use all their custodial time, and in March they miss half their time, and in April they miss 2 days, and in June they suddenly aren’t available but want all of July, etc. Don’t budge, though. Follow the custody agreement yourself and let your EX make a hash of his responsibilities all by himself.

So, again, hang in there. Be the sane parent. Take pride in all that you are doing even though he doesn’t deserve the benefits of your love and dedication.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

Exactly what has happened to us as well. In December (9 months after divorce and 3 years after DDay) X chose to see our youngest child, 13, for 2 hours — a single meal the first week of the month. He didn’t see the oldest 2 at all and he saw our middle daughter who is grown a few times when she went to get $ for school fees. X was apparently in Europe for the Christmas holiday with young golddigging OW— heard they are “on again off again” from another woman X is preying on — bet OW doesn’t know that! Karma bus.

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
6 years ago

Beep, Beep!

woolwasovermyeyes
woolwasovermyeyes
6 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

Thanks Eilonwy your words mean a lot. Today is a hard day because of last night. Just after 2 nights ago when he was apologizing for not walking away and instead ruining everything. This constant roller coaster and barrier of not selling the house is killing me.

had-it
had-it
6 years ago

Let’s add to the health list as it’s not only you physical health that they violate but emotional, mental and spiritual health are also abused.

Keepin Calm
Keepin Calm
6 years ago
Reply to  had-it

YES. So much this. I really think that I developed rheumatoid arthritis because of the immense amount of stress I was under being married to my ex. He was a selfish narc, an arrogant bully, and made my life hell so much of the time…but being the chump I was, I spackled and made excuses for him and excuses for me to stay. I am SO GLAD he is gone.

AlohaFreedom
AlohaFreedom
6 years ago

“Co-parenting”
Shuffling the kids back and forth. Duffle bags packed with clothes, diapers, medicine that is or is not given as prescribed by the pediatrician, special bedtime toys that on a regular basis are not returned with the children. Splitting up holidays. Unpaid child support. Sending small children with untreated mentally ill and neglectful parent because the court orders supersede your parenting common sense. I could keep going on…

12YearsWasted
12YearsWasted
6 years ago
Reply to  AlohaFreedom

Not to mention the good clothes I buy never get sent back with my kid. Sometimes weeks will go by and he comes back in an outfit I sent him in and I realize “Oh, wow, I forgot about that shirt”. Meanwhile, somehow I’ve been collecting the jeans that are too short and the shirts that are worn and faded….

LongingforMeh-ca
LongingforMeh-ca
6 years ago
Reply to  12YearsWasted

RE: missing clothing.
If I recall parenting young ones, they will likely outgrow many items given how long/if they are returned. OY

Her Blondeness
Her Blondeness
6 years ago
Reply to  12YearsWasted

#12Years: How about he never even buys clothes in the first place? Kidlet is 15 now and growing like a weed! All those jeans that fit last week that don’t fit this week? My problem. Winter jackets? Hiking boots and outdoor gear for scout trips? I paaaaaayyyyyyy chiiiiiiild suuuppppport. Yeah, asswipe because the state garnishes your wages otherwise I wouldn’t see one.fucking.red.fucking.cent.

StartofSomethingGood
StartofSomethingGood
6 years ago
Reply to  AlohaFreedom

THIS!!! ^^^^

strong woman
strong woman
6 years ago

The ptsd, the intrusive thoughts, worrying about being financially secure, worrying about our children’s emotional and mental states.

Losing the life you thought you had and every memory is tainted by infidelity.

Trying to shake off the flying monkey family members that your future ex has lied too just to isolate you even further.

When I look at lists of things psychopaths do to their partners – mine checked off everyone.
The blameshifting and gaslighting was horrific.

I escaped all that craziness and now I’m trying to divorce him and get a fair settlement. My life is so much better but some days I feel like I’m spinning in circles. Can’t wait to be rid of him and get on with my life.

I’m looking forward to the “how did your life improve when you left a cheater”. My list of improvements will be much longer! Trust that they suck.

TKO
TKO
6 years ago
Reply to  strong woman

This^^^

The Ester Perel types don’t know what they don’t know when it comes to these costs.

I’d like to deliver them up to an approximation of the experience, but on their limited level…

What if Ester Perel had to wake up one day to a world in which her priorities were sacrificed against her will? What if one day she learned every one of her audience members, those whom she thought agreed and were so impressed by her defense of infidelity, actually were only acting that way just to enjoy making a joke out of her? What if she had a D-day where it turned out her “fans” loved the power of their secret mockery of her. There existed even a kind of a time-honored shared experience among these strangers built solely upon their feigned adoration of her while in reality leading her on and hating her. They actually had gatherings where they laughed about her latest idiotic comment. She walked in on one and was utterly stunned and in disbelief. She found more signs but began thinking that this mockery was the actual joke and it would all end soon and go back to normal. But her literary agent and the TED talk producers it turns out had been working in secret (she found their emails) to put on “this idiot show”. It was even bigger than they had ever expected, and they’d been able to keep it going for years and years. They had embezzled most of the proceeds. And everywhere she went, the store, a restaurant, a gas station, they all now smirked. She was a joke. Her life had been fodder for other people’s usage. But she didn’t just give up. She’d try to make her case for infidelity again, you know, sticking to her guns, but wherever she did this it was like opponents came out of the woodwork and the one person she was talking to turned into a dozen who were ridiculing and attacking her and her beliefs. She couldn’t believe it. What had happened to her beautiful fame and honored status as “more evolved and enlightened”? All the beautiful people were spitting at her. She lost all bearings on reality as she reeled through memory after memory. This mockery had gone on for as long as she could recall. She remembered being recruited by her agent with all kinds of praise. That was decades ago. People she depended upon, people she had sacrificed for, had been the very ones most involved in keeping the charade going. In a fog, she isolated herself in a shivering dark depression. She needed help to get a grasp of reality again, but professional counseling was all that was left to her. Others either were against her or had no idea what she was facing and kept telling her she needed to forgive and change. But what had she done wrong? Counselors would have to be supportive regardless of their beliefs about her because, well, she knew that ethics mattered in that part of life (she thought to herself you can cheat at the very center of your life, but once per week therapy must be absolutely sacrosanct). But damn if the psychotherapist didn’t blame her for the mockery and betrayals. The therapist even put their sessions on YouTube.

I could go on. But wouldn’t it be great to hit these shallow creatures where their “meaning” and importance lives? And then tell them something like “Get over it, it just about some entertainment. Are you against entertainment?!”

Whodoesthat
Whodoesthat
6 years ago
Reply to  TKO

Omg this is the most powerful explaination of what it feels like to go through this shit show of narc abuse… i cant tell hiw this hits home for me i think i might frame it for future reference. Thanks for going to the trouble it is priceless when someone can articulate the living nightmare of decades of your life.

CleotheFormerChump
CleotheFormerChump
6 years ago
Reply to  TKO

Bravo! That is some mighty writing.

repulsedandbreathless
repulsedandbreathless
6 years ago
Reply to  TKO

TKO , MADE ME CRY .remembering all the horrible things he has said about me .the liberty’s they take to trash you to other people . i had a bug on the phone and got a whole conversation with his slutbag and him talking . he said horrible things , my blood pressure went up and my chest started hurting , the pain was excruciating , i was so shocked and crushed , then found out the affair had been going on 2 years , he was f*cking her at the firehouse , on the golf course , going to her house everyday that i was at work . i was killing my self , trying to parent 4 kids , work a full time job , do all the household chores , we went to therapy , a Christian counselor, of course ,he ask me what i did to make my husband cheat . NOTHING YOU F*CK ! do you not see that he is a liar , disrespectful, dishonest , untrustworthy and lacks integrity ……..some people never get it , but i went back , BIGGEST MISTAKE OF MY LIFE . the youngest was a toddler , then i had MAN toddler to take care of too . you all know he went uderground with the cheating , never stopped , only turned pro ,at cheating and lying and stealing ……..i just got sicker and sicker from the cognitive dissonance ………..

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  TKO

Brilliant, just brilliant!
Reminds me of that Jim Carey movie where he lived in a fake world that was created for entertainment of those watching…. terrifying but exactly how I feel.

KathleenK
KathleenK
6 years ago
Reply to  TKO

Very powerful post, TKO

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  TKO

Yes, TKO…when you take a betrayal as bad as what he suffered and superimpose that over a different context, it looks truly horrid.

My daughter adored her father, yet, what if he had betrayed their relationship the way he did mine?

“Ive decided that I dont want you as a child anymore because you are a terrible child” (cue 2 hour list of all of her faults) but there is no one else, I am just sick of being your dad (later to learn he found a different kid to devote himself to and he was lying) and all the tons more shit they do…

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Unicorn…..wow, that just drove the last nail home!

Thrive
Thrive
6 years ago
Reply to  strong woman

At 66, all plans for stopping work and leisurely enjoying walks, grandkids, boating, sunsets, friends etc turned upside down. Now building new life, working, finding new home, selling old stuff, finding new single friends, new activities I can do without a partner to share like boating. learning new ways to be with grandkids without help of granddad. All topsy turvy.

Babycakes
Babycakes
6 years ago
Reply to  Thrive

I can relate…age 65 and what I thought I would be doing has all been changed with the OW in the picture and cheater deciding 41 years of marriage is not what he signed up for. Lots of changes ahead.

NWBiblio
NWBiblio
6 years ago
Reply to  Thrive

Yes, Thrive, I agree. I was only 50 when it all happened, but the impact is the same: All those future plans, POOF, gone. Suddenly I have to recalculate everything and, as you said, new friends, new activities…. Challenging and exhausting when I was already exhausted!

Blown Away
Blown Away
6 years ago
Reply to  NWBiblio

Thrive, Biblio, all our Silver Queens and Senior Chumps…
I threw him out when I was 68 years old…married 46 Years. Even though I called “Out” immediately, it did not matter. He simply ghosted me. He has not contacted me once in four years. Blessing or Curse?? The journey forward has been such a struggle. My life…past, present and future was over and was a lie. I am four years now into creating a new life. It is exhausting…I feel like I am slashing my way through a jungle. I am living in a new city, making new friends and I try to keep putting new pieces in place in this life. I just bought a new puppy on Saturday…my latest piece. It is everything you both said. Some days I just feel crushed.

NWBiblio
NWBiblio
6 years ago
Reply to  Blown Away

I realize these posts have a limited time that people read them, so perhaps no one will even see this response, but sometimes it takes me a while to think, ponder, process…. And I’ve been thinking about BlownAway’s post.

Two years after Dday, I gave up trying to fight my feelings and moved out of state (XH was still here then), to Oregon where I continued to be unhappy. I thought it was the job I was working at, so I came back to Alaska (XH & OW have since married & left), and this isn’t working either (for reasons both inside and outside myself), so I’m planning to leave the country (an idea which pre-dates Dday). — I’m sure people looking at me from the outside think I’m a big bold adventurer, just doing whatever I want, but instead I feel like I’m … just as you said … slashing away, looking for something that feels … better than this. (And, yes, I know some of this is just who I am, depression, what-not, but at least I’ve learned to stop that thought from spiralling into a “maybe this is why he left me” death-spiral….)

Thrive
Thrive
6 years ago
Reply to  NWBiblio

I totally understand the feeling. It is like the earth keeps moving underneath you. I have also felt like moving might help but am staying out put for now. I need to let me emotions settle. I’m 10 months out from day and 3 months from divorce. It is a tidal wave of change. I was at 30 yrs marriage. Blown away: hugs!

icandothis18
icandothis18
6 years ago
Reply to  Blown Away

Aww Blown Away–thanks for sharing. I love the description, “I feel like I am slashing my way through a jungle.” I Imagine after 46 years it’s been incredibly challenging. I admire your fresh start. A new puppy! So sweet and a best pal to love you unconditionally.

LongingforMeh-ca
LongingforMeh-ca
6 years ago
Reply to  NWBiblio

This! Combined with above:
We’ve lost BOTH the past – “when did the cheating really start?” review of all history together and the future – hopes, plans, dreams. Granted it was with a mirage of a human being, but it shakes the terra firma beneath us dramatically. Takes some MIGHTY chump strength to overcome this earthquake and rebuild. (But – we’re awesome like that – looking forward to next week!)

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago

Omg! This!!!!!

Every memory is now suspect and robbed. Memories were priceless to me. All gone.

Mjo
Mjo
6 years ago

Like the two commentators above, for me it’s all about the children.

-the impact that cheating has on their emotions and their lives as adults (bigger chance of depression;troubled relationships)
-the fact that they feel betrayed as well
-the shame in the community if the cheating is known by others
-what it does to their sense of trust.

For me it’s all about the kids.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  Mjo

For me the gift (of pain) that keeps on giving is the loss time time I have with my grandchildren. That, plus the holidays I now don’t get to see my children or grandchildren at all. It’s hard enough to share with the in-laws, but to have to share with my ex too really stinks. The time I’d hoped to spend with my kids and grandkids is cut to about 1/4 of what it would have been. This is made more difficult by the fact that their dad bought a huge resort home and all the kids/grandkids are much more comfortable staying there than in my small house that doesn’t have enough bedrooms and bathrooms. Nothing I can do about it. Just sucks. In order to see my kids as much as possible I have to save money to go visit them, which I do gladly, but it’s expensive. It doesn’t cost my ex to see the kids like it does me.

repulsedandbreathless
repulsedandbreathless
6 years ago
Reply to  Mjo

MJO every thing you said is true . my 4 ,now adults , although functional , are epic fails , each one , is unhappy and suffering in some way .i did the best i could ,with lying cheating thief modeling bad behavior ,day and night , and constantly belittling every one , it takes its toll , they never felt valued and loved by him .my youngest will hardly speak to me , because ,her opinion , i allowed him to mistreat me and the kids by staying .they were all aware that there was something wrong with him .

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
6 years ago

RAB,
Your family’s situation sounds rough. I have not met your family, but did you ever consider that your kids might be successful just for being functional in a chronically challenging situation?

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Mjo

My daughter says she doesn’t ever want to get married because she is afraid of commitment. It isn’t that she is afraid of being betrayed, it is that she fears she is too much like her dad and wouldn’t be able to sustain her level of commitment. That it would be too much of a burden for her. So sad.

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago

This is so sad! I hope you have some opportunities to talk to your daughter about at least being very honest in her relationships. If she’s not sure she can sustain commitment, she needs to tell partners and potential partners that. If she prefers a non-monogamous relationship at any point, she needs to talk with her partner(s) openly. She needs to avoid having children until she knows she can follow through on that biggest of all commitments. And she may find that with time and maturity (which is created through self-reflection), she is quite able to be a loyal, long-term partner and parent.

Because it’s not the fact divorce that is the hardest for Chumps, it’s the dishonesty, and the abandonment of their children.

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
6 years ago
Reply to  Mjo

I probably would be closer to meh if I didn’t have three heartbroken sons who watched their father skip off on all of us to fuck a bimbo and then financially abuse us out of spite.

The damage done is irreparable, as evident with my 23 year old addicted son, my twenty one year old son who struggles with rage when anxious and has lost his girlfriend because of it, and my seventeen year old son who has spent the past five years since the abandonment trying to make his needs as small as possible.

Their father modeled how to treat me as an appliance, and now his bimbo as a live-in side piece.

I can model respect for the rest of my life for them, but it will never undo their experience.

I will never forgive X for what he did to our kids. I hate him for it.

Whodoesthat
Whodoesthat
6 years ago

Ditto. Clearing up after kid mental health issues post discard for the younger model is another level of fuck you.

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago

Chutes,……… truth! It is the same with my eldest and remaining son. My heart breaks for him because he is such good man, with a kind and loving heart, and he is deep into alcoholism. He has lost his marriage, his home, and job. Still he drinks.

I love him with all my heart, and there is nothing I can do to help him. All I can do is bless him and release him, and refuse to enable him. Knowing that he is putting alcohol before food, that he is on the verge of becoming homeless, that he is in danger of losing joint custody of his children, makes me so sad.

I really believe that if cheater ex had not been in the picture, things might have been different. My eldest son has never dealt with cheater ex murdering his little brother. I don’t know if he ever will. He won’t have a chance to unless he puts the plug in the jug.

I pray for him, and pray he reaches his bottom before he dies from his addiction. Thank goodness for Alanon, it is saving my sanity.

I was at meh, but at the moment, I hate cheater ex with the heat of a million suns. He was a walking pestilence, and is still causing harm. It may very well be be that he will succeed in killing both my sons. Just years apart.

Hugs Chutes and Chumpiest. I wish I had more comfort to give.

peacekeeper
peacekeeper
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

(((((((((Tessie))))))))
Oh dear Tessie,
This morning I am reading recent archives and I am so very sad to see your post regarding your Son.
All you and he have been through, and still so much more pain. Always the pain.
My good friend who lost her Son at 18 years of age, always tells me ” Where there is life, there is hope.” She knows I am struggling with worry over my young grandson with serious cardiac health concerns.
I hope and pray that somehow your Son’s addiction can be helped.
Tessie, you model strength and fortitude like no other living person, but man, that load must get so hard to carry at times.
I wish I could help more than with just words but I sure mean it when I say, “Tessie you are in CN’s heart, heck, YOU are the heart and souls of CN!”

Xxxxxxxxxxx
peacekeeper

Goaheadandjump
Goaheadandjump
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

All you might mom’s of boys! I have three. My stbx mother cheated
And stayed with her affair partner. It makes me so angry that this is the legacy his family has created for my boys. All I can hope is they have seen firsthand the deviation he has caused me. I want them to be happy and healthy….

Chumpiest
Chumpiest
6 years ago

Oh, Chutes, your post is so sad. I’ll never know how much damage Two-Legged Rat did to our three sons, but our oldest died by suicide at 20, our middle son is just starting to like me and respect me, and our youngest, at 24, is striving in therapy to learn how to set boundaries and make his needs heard. You are the sane parent, you will be there for them and they know it (when my middle son came out of the closet five years ago, he chose me to tell first). There is hope!

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
6 years ago
Reply to  Chumpiest

Chumpiest,
I feel sad for you and your sons for the death of one of your sons and the other struggles you have borne. Sending you a virtual hug.

chutesandladders
chutesandladders
6 years ago
Reply to  Chumpiest

I’m sorry to hear about the loss of your son. That is a torture no parent should ever have to endure. My oldest has attempted suicide since he was very young. Now he self medicates and plays Russian roulette with alcohol and drugs. I wait for “the call.”

I’m sending hugs and strength right back.

peacekeeper
peacekeeper
6 years ago

Chumpiest and ChutesandLadders,
Sending many many hugs and love to you both!!
(((((((((((((((((❤️)))))))))))))))))

Sometimes there are just no words,
Except to send love and say I am so sorry for all you and your family’s pain.

Grendel
Grendel
6 years ago

Hi Chumpiest/Chutes and Ladders:

I can’t stop crying. Thank you both for your posts. My boys are still young. Sometimes in the thick of the chaos I can’t even see things a week out, let alone years. Printed and posted these in my “why i will never go back” journal. I’m sorry and my heart breaks for you.
Thank you for modeling “mighty”. XoxoxO

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
6 years ago
Reply to  Grendel

My biggest regret was buying into the “staying together for the children” excuse. Essentially, I gave X more time to ingrain the notion into three more future men that women are only useful when they shut up and serve.

I don’t know if I can ever undo that.

AC
AC
6 years ago
Reply to  Mjo

The kids are the big one for me. It’s about the role-modeling they get. This is why you HAVE to get out early.

Dad gaslights mom and openly disrespects her? Kids won’t have any respect for mom either.

Mom values going to church, but dad turns his back on it because all that moralizing bothers him? Kids will take the easy route and reject church too.

Dad deals with life stresses by finding a new girlfriend for kibbles? Son learns to do the same.

Mom is the un-fun person because she’s cleaning up financial garbage, and all the other garbage strewn around by cheating dad? Kids will gravitate towards the fun person (dad) and reject whatever mean ol’ mom says.

I’m not saying this happens in all cheating relationships; your mileage may vary; but it’s what happened in mine. It took a long time for the kids to realize that not-so-fun mom was actually the parent modeling ethical behavior and integrity, and that ethics and integrity shoule be valued at all.

LongingforMeh-ca
LongingforMeh-ca
6 years ago
Reply to  AC

After my Dday, on C-Day (confrontation of cheater), I made cheaterpants tell the kids what he had done. He didn’t tell DD15 what he had “done wrong”, but did tell DS21. DS told me his own response was, “THAT’s where I get it from!” I about fell out. He was living with his gf of a year, whose mother had just died 2 months prior, but was texting another girl. He straightened up his shit, as far as I know (we’re pretty open about things), but I couldn’t believe it at first. Also, schmoopie had come on to DS also.
TRUST that they suck.
Add the MANY ways our kids are put at risk, directly and indirectly, from these selfish trainwrecks of humanity. WTAF, right?

Keepin Calm
Keepin Calm
6 years ago

My oldest stepson is exactly like his father. I just talked to his mother yesterday (the first ex-wife) and she told me that at one point, he had THREE girlfriends at once. He’s had two pregnancy scares, an STD, and God knows what else. The apple didn’t fall far from the tree here. And it’s really sad. I tried my best to give him a good home and be a good stepmom, but I know I failed in spectacular ways, but still, I TRIED. His dad smokes and drinks and when my stepson was little, he knew it was wrong and hated to see his dad drunk. But guess what he started doing when he was a teenager? Drinking like a fish. Still does it. It makes me sad. Their entire family has a history of alcoholism, and unfortunately, neither of them had the determination to stop the cycle.

Anonymous
Anonymous
6 years ago

An STD definitely makes it almost impossible to date and move on. Dating is no fun when you know you will have to have “the talk” at some point.

Hurt1
Hurt1
6 years ago
Reply to  Anonymous

I’m with you on this one. Too ashamed to date because of the STD given to me by ex.

Lost 220# Deadweight
Lost 220# Deadweight
6 years ago
Reply to  Hurt1

Hurt1: what a fucker. A serious piece of shit. I’m so sorry

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Hurt1

Hurt and Anonymous, I met a lovely man, got to know him as a friend, and we both wanted more. I DREADED the talk (HSV) and thought I’d rather break it off. I took a leap of faith because I figured what’s to lose if I’m going to break up anyway and turns out he had it too — from a cheating fiancé 25 years ago! We’ve been happily together ever since.

I know how hard it is but it’s likely you’ll find many who do too or simply don’t care.

2nd Gen Chump
2nd Gen Chump
6 years ago

Please don’t be ashamed. It’s almost more likely that a sexually active adult has one than not these days, so just lay it out there after you know there is sexual interest, but before clothes come off. I wish that we would stop stigmatizing them. Having one is not a moral failing.

nomar
nomar
6 years ago

My cheating ex-wife took from me, and sacrificed at the alter of her side-fucks, the truthful story of my life. She duped me into living a lie, her lie. The college romance I thought I had, the sacramental marriage, the decades of building a home and a family and businesses together—none of it was true. Every anniversary, every holiday, every intimate embrace was a fraud inflicted on me. Taken together, they almost deprived me of an identity altogether. Who are you if you are not the person you thought you were since 1984?

It would have been far less shattering to discover that I was born with a prehensile tail and webbed feet, or had been abducted as an infant by circus freaks, or was the secret rape-child of Strom Thurmond. Identity theft at this existential level is an inhuman cost to impose on anyone. No one should be deprived of the true story of their life.

Freer Every Day
Freer Every Day
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

exactly

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Nomar it seems to me that your stock would trade high — that you’re a good man, and a good woman would love to be your wife!

TimeWasted33
TimeWasted33
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

This is so well said! I feel like that is the hardest part….you have this idea of who you are, and in 2.2 seconds, that just crashes. Then, you sit there trying to figure out WTH? You made this life…made big decisions and did all these things without the information necessary to make those choices. For me: I switched jobs, took a significant paycut, etc. without the knowledge that the entire time my husband was off screwing a spreadsheet full of people. It is freaking robbery!

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Me too. Who was I if I wasn’t the person I thought I was since 1991? The disorientation was debilitating.

icandothis18
icandothis18
6 years ago

Yes! 🙁

BeTrueToYourself
BeTrueToYourself
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Nomar
This is the biggest trauma for me. I went through a bereavement for the identity I thought I had. The marriage I thought I had, the place in his affections I thought I had, the reality I thought I had.
It’s such a weird feeling like no other and it makes you think that nothing is what it seems. What else is a lie ? You pinch yourself imagining you’re dreaming but when you wake up you realise that this new reality is forever and you can never go back.
Until you’ve experienced it yourself, you can’t possibly know how traumatising it is.

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
6 years ago

I literally asked my boyfriend, ‘What else have you lied to me about,’ when the house of cards came tumbling down.

Being betrayed/loed to before, during, and sometimes after in a divorce/break up, especially after much time with ones partner feels like disenfranchisement.

Keepin Calm
Keepin Calm
6 years ago

Yep, exactly. All those things he said…did he ever really mean them? Did he ever really love me? He always told me that I was the only one he’d ever felt this way about. But if that were true, then why did he do this? So, so, SO many lies.

duped
duped
6 years ago
Reply to  Keepin Calm

Yeah, like the framed pic he bought for our bathroom that still hangs on the wall, says something to the effect, I never thought I’d love this way again…meanwhile It was all a lie and he let on he was in love with me, while he pursued the big whore from work because she had material possessions that he was so impressed with. Little did he know the whore orchestrated and positioned herself to appear more appealing to get the gullible narc to help her raise her brats and get her love starved pathetic ass some money out of someone else’s husband…when is her Karma coming. I have the popcorn

Bea
Bea
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

The one person that you loved and trusted with your life turns out to be the only one destroying your life insidiously with all their might. The cruelty, abuse, relentless insanity and manipulation. It’s paralyzing, shattering, changes your character forever. What I would give to turn back time.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Bea, I agree with all of the above. And for all those very injustices I’m thankful we are not alone and no longer have to suffer in silence.

Staying with an abuser was one of the worst choices my mother made. Yet I too devoted my life to a lying slimy covert narcissist for 41 years.

Yes, the pain of being duped and used is horrific.

The other outcome of infidelity is taking our power back. Divorcing the assholes with our dignity, walking away with our very LIFE.

That previous game was rigged. We were believers who loved, tolerated, and inevitably saw.

My mother was stuck in ‘I can’t believe’ for her entire marriage. She died in my arms months before Dday.

I get to embrace living, something that she never had.

Chosing yourself is a mighty outcome of infidelity we overlooked until Tracy with her wisdom showed us the way out.

Stay strong, you’ll get through the pain to clarity. Believe in yourself.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Bea

Bea, this is exactly how I feel~I trusted X with my life.
The cruelty and manipulation is relentless and beyond my comprehension.
I was a devoted wife and Mother, sacrificing my career for his or as he would say “our” career.
Paralyzing.

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

I completely agree with you, Nomar. The effects of being tricked into a marriage that really wasn’t are long-lasting.

But…my rebellious nature refuses to give up either my memories or my identity from those times. *I* was a sincere participant in a marriage, *I* was a caring mother to my two daughters (albeit not the best mother I could have been because of constantly being undermined by their father), *I* have wonderful memories of vacations with those daughters and even my in-laws. FWIW, I even have fond memories of shared events and conversations with Hannibal Lecher.

I am determined to keep those memories by simply relegating him to a role as a bit player. Just as my focus is now more on myself than it used to be, my memories of the past are now more self-focused than they would normally be. Yes, during our last 2 major vacations together–to Italy and to the beach, Hannibal was (a) fielding emails from the sexual harassment officer about his years-prior affair with gradwhore, and (b) texting his latest AP from the beach while engaging in a brutal devalue of me. But knowing what he was doing at those times does not detract from having enjoyed touring the Uffizi, nor of imaging my Westie riding the waves in Galveston. I will not allow my asshole X to re-define my past.

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Tempest,
I like your approach to remembering the past.

LongingforMeh-ca
LongingforMeh-ca
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I was fixing to reply when Tempest said what is in my heart. I know we’re inventorying costs – and the toll is so high Esther Perel could never wrap her “enlivened” little mind around it, even if TKO’s scenario played out as written. But I affirm that *I* was the sane, present wife and parent. Not perfect, not always at my best, but I brought MY 100% to the table, whatever the circumstances. I acted in good faith, from my heart. I tried to reach out through the brick wall of his idiocy and got…a cheating brick wall. MY worth will not be defined by that disordered POS and his behavior & crappy choices. the farther from Dday I venture, the better I feel about myself in this mess. I am getting MIGHTIER by the day and my real friends see it & validate what a gargantuan task it is. (I really AM looking forward to next week, chumps. There IS a pony underneath this pile of horseshit, I just keep digging).

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

100%.

Rachel'sDone
Rachel'sDone
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Exactly this, Nomar. Without the anchor of who you thought you were, you are adrift and looking for direction on how to gain a life.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Always epic when Nomar tees it up.

NWBiblio
NWBiblio
6 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

It is, isn’t it? (Hi, LAJ) — I was just thinking last night, had a flash memory of something with XH and then having to (now auto-)correct, “Nope. He was never there. That was all you.” Very Matrix-like. I doubt I’d be any more surprised to wake up and find a big plug in the back of my head….

chumpapalooza
chumpapalooza
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Just wow Nomar.

AndImDone
AndImDone
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Nomar – You are so insightful.

‘Who are you if you are not the person you thought you were’
for me.
It’s like a storefront shingle ‘Chumped…’

and

‘Identity theft at this existential level is an inhuman cost to impose on anyone.’

Using Chutes & Ladders as a visual, infidelity opened up all the chutes leading to psychological damage to me and to our children, along with the financial devastation, the deprivation of education opportunities, the loss of an entire set of family members, and long-term health risks.

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
6 years ago
Reply to  AndImDone

AndImDone, you’ve perfectly summed up why I chose my moniker. I thought we were so close to winning the game, only to be tossed down the long chute to the bottom.

TKO
TKO
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Very well described Nomar.

Strad
Strad
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Yes. I’m 4 years post divorce from CheaterX, and mostly at meh. But I’m left wondering: in my 26 year marriage, was ANY of it real? The only satisfying answer is that I was real, and that’s all that matters in the end.

Jodi Lynch
Jodi Lynch
6 years ago
Reply to  Strad

Strad, I totally agree.

I was real too and it is all that matters in the end.

Hugs to you.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  Strad

Yes, me too…26 years married…29 together and came to learn that he likely cheated all along and he is dead, so I will never learn the truth…just SO MANY questions…memories I thought were solid now have to be completely reconsidered knowing that he was fucking around.

My identity as his wife was so central to who I perceived myself to be. Im really fortunate now to have good things in my life worth pursuing so that I can create my identity without any of him in it at all.

duped
duped
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Unicorn
I understand and empathasize with you. It sucks big time that I have to ponder every day wtf was this all about. Why was I a pawn in his game without even realizing it. Keeping me hanging around while he fucked around. I wonder everyday (can’t help it) what was real??? Was any of it real ? Then the icing on the cake was his family stealing my photo albums, sort of like saying, your marriage never really existed…and we are going to make sure that you don’t have the memories either….Real sociopaths at work to destroy my existence. Sort of like taking an eraser or white out and just blotting me out of the picture like I never existed…now that he’s dead. Well, didn’t I already experience that while he was alive, now I have to be subjected to the fucktard family memories further erasing me? Wtf !

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  duped

You are the gal who was disinherited when her husband died, right? I know you are fighting an uphill battle, but in many places, there is a minimum of what a lawful spouse gets from an estate…they cant legally take everything from you…but Im sure enforcing that would be hard. Im sorry you are suffering this

duped
duped
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

No, I was definitely not disinherited. I said that his family stole from my house items which did not belong to them

duped
duped
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

unicornnomore
No, I was definitely not disinherited. My husband was a creep with his coworker but of course I was in his will. It was His family that came here and stole from me because they felt everything was for them. But only what was left to them was for them, not the stuff they stole from my house, that was not for them.
His family was just jealous and as it turned out they must be sociopaths
also my last reply was for shechump..not to you…sorry

Kibble-less
Kibble-less
6 years ago
Reply to  Strad

Agreed completely with Nomar and others. Fraud. Deceit. Discarded. PTSD for myself and kids. How can we rewrite history so fluidly as the cheater and their flying money posse and schmoopies do??

spiritwoman
spiritwoman
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

#mystorytoo

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Yes, nomar, fraud is exactly the correct term. And having it perpetrated over such a long period of time with such malice is what makes the 50/50 No Fault divorce yet another crime against the chump.

sparks2flames
sparks2flames
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Exactly!

Shell-shocked-chump
Shell-shocked-chump
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Hell yes, nomar!
It re-writes your entire life together.
Sours happy memories.
Casts shadows of doubt.
Shatters self worth.
Degrades, irradicates, demeans the love you gave.

One Step at a Time
One Step at a Time
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Exactly!! So well stated!!

Nikki Lynn
Nikki Lynn
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

So well said, Nomar.

wildcat
wildcat
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

And my story too. They suck

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Nomar, wow, this is it exactly for me!

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  nomoreskankboy

So very true Nomar.

Mehphista
Mehphista
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Yep. At one point I asked Mr Fan what he wanted-he said I want something I can never have-respect. ???? I said I want what I thought I had. And I still do. Chump Nation was instrumental in helping me realize that whatever he did, I acted in good faith. That can’t be taken from me. I raised our kid into an adult with integrity who has her mom as a proper constant in her life and who has drawn her own conclusions about her donor’s behavior. That can’t be taken from her.

I still want what I thought I had, and I will get it.

❤️ To all Chump Nation.

itdoesntchange
itdoesntchange
6 years ago

Herpes. The ‘gift’ that never goes away.

Hurt1
Hurt1
6 years ago
Reply to  itdoesntchange

Also add genital warts.

Mehtamorphosis
Mehtamorphosis
6 years ago

Family and Friends. Many of those relationships are also destroyed by the infidelity once the chump stops dancing and spackling. Cheaters would rather have their schmoops than enjoy the familiar traditions and rituals of a long-shared life. I miss my in-laws, and I’m sure they miss me. They probably miss him, too, since I was the one who used to drag his ass to see them. No doubt they are devastated by his actions and humiliated by what he has done, taking up with my niece (if he has even told them). I’ve considered contacting them, but regretfully decided nah — they’re his, and I’m NC with him for my own sanity.

As for friends, I did get those in the divorce (all except for one flying monkey close friend who turned out to be one of his APs), but the infidelity has changed how we socialize. I miss the old patterns of karaoke parties, playing board games, going places as couples, etc. Many things that used to be a blast are now triggery and best avoided. I’m rebuilding my ways of relating with old friends while also making new friends, and it’s very fun, but I still miss certain activities that just can’t ever be the same again because of the cheating rat bastard.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  Mehtamorphosis

Yeah. Agreed. The families break up too. And not everyone has terrible in-laws. I got along with mine as well. And yeah he only saw them because i dragged him. I used to miss that. But With time everyone’s moved on. Now I just focus on my family and the friends who supported me and didn’t judge. Don’t need a whole lot of them. the handful of good ones is plenty.

Triumphafterterror
Triumphafterterror
6 years ago

The gifts that keep on giving – how about total insecurity for your children? A lifetime of therapy for them? It’s bad enough to lie and cheat to your spouse, but to include children in the mindfuck that is an affair is incomprehensible. To discard your own children for the OW and her kids is something I can never wrap my head around – and I can’t imagine how the kids can come to terms with that.
Std’s – the OW gave him herpes, which he told the kids. So they are terrified that they will get it. They take disinfecting wipes to visits so they can wipe down the toilet seat (recommended by the pediatrician) and won’t kiss him. He takes drinks from their beverages and licks their ice cream cones … which they then either trade out with new drinks or throw away. Any slight bump in their mouth sends them into a tail spin of thinking they have contracted it. They have developed anxiety from the affair, the discard, and all the bs that has followed. They have been subjected to assault at the hands of the OW’s kids, which took 4 years to resolve & they are court ordered to stay apart now. But the kids had 4 years of uncertainty & fear when with him, and he never defended or protected his own children. It’s just absurd … total annihilation on every possible level.

Keepin Calm
Keepin Calm
6 years ago

OMG. This is HORRIBLE. I am so, so sorry your children have to go through that!!!

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago

How truly horrifying! Your kids likely have PTSD.

Just when I think I have heard it all????????????

I’m so very very sorry.

Sagefemme
Sagefemme
6 years ago

Your pediatrician is adding to your kids stress with misinformation about herpes. It is not spread on toilet seats!!

triumphafterterror
triumphafterterror
6 years ago
Reply to  Sagefemme

I think it had more to do with giving them a sense of control over the situation and validating their feelings. I had to be tested & went through the fear of thinking that I had contracted it (which I did not), so just another thing that kids can’t wrap their minds around. Nor should they have to!!

ANC
ANC
6 years ago

What a complete lack of empathy for you kids by your X. So sorry!

wildcat
wildcat
6 years ago

In addition to all that was mentioned above, I believe the negative impact on the kids individually is bad, but their relationships with others suffer too. At this point, I have a strained relationship with DD18 who frankly is still in denial about what her dad did and has a strong sense to be “fair” to both of us. DD16 knows what he did (found out on her own) and is very supportive of me, but I still have to filter everything to both of them because at this point they still share too much. AND, I have to witness the deterioration of the relationship between the two of them – because one wants to talk to him and one doesn’t. How totally f@ucked up is that? They have been so close, and now he’s destroyed that too.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  wildcat

Exactly. Dd2 and DD3 are completely estranged bc of what X did in devaluing and discarding and then during the D he had a complete love bombing strategy for image management but only to Dd2. He literally treated her like a wife — then triangulated between OW and Dd2 (I was NC and no longer part of their sick triangle). X also routinely triangulates with dd2 (18) and DD3– for instance, tells DD3 (who is only 13) that Dd2 is a “good” daughter because she always returns his (stalking-like) multiple calls and texts an hour when he’s hoovering for kibbles. Dd3 is at school when he does this and cannot use her phone.

The sisters, formerly very close, hate eachother now. Dd3’s therapist tells me I must protect DD3 from Dd2’s and X’s emotional abuse and manipulation.

Breeding with a cheater is the shit sandwich buffet you have to eat from every single day.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago

MotherChump

The damage they do to the ‘favored’ child is unthinkable. Truth is they will continuously engage all of their children to breach their boundaries for their own gain.

The Limited zoned in on the adult child he belittled for years when she moved away. He offered no support whatsoever and rallied his other children in a smear campaign while I was always in contact and offering support.

She was the one he took to multiple OW houses while he was cheating.

He enlisted his adult son to take things from my home after I was awarded the contents.

There is no end to the entitlement and use of children regardless of age.

Dad is toxic. I suspect he’s coming to my home while I’m away at work to see my son as the slut is driving by my home. I’m checking into installing a camera I can access from a remote location while I’m away at work during the week.

There’s no end to the sickness.

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

My ex was the ‘favoured child’ of his covert narc mother. (Took me a long time to see her narcissism, as she seems very caring and is a major sad sausage.) The result of that was his arrogance and selfishness. He was well on his way to making our daughter the Golden Child, and our son the Scapegoat. I’m SO GLAD I got out when I did (the kids were 11 and 12), and am still working to repair the damage he had already done to them.

I used to be glad I had reconciled after Affair #1. I felt I had given him every chance, and knew I had done everything I could to preserve my kids’ family. I now so regret giving that chance, as so much more damage was done to our kids by my staying. Three different ways; by the way he treated them, by their watching our very non-reciprocal relationship, and by my being a far less good mom to them, because of the constant drama I was wrapped up in, in my relationship with him. This all would have been so much better, had I not waited for Affair #2 to free me.

overandover
overandover
5 years ago
Reply to  KarenE

This is exactly how I feel. Why did I allow him more time to ruin our lives?

wildcat
wildcat
6 years ago

MC99,

Your description is exactly where our destroyed family is heading too. Same love bombing for DD18 for image management purposes, almost like she is his wife now, and DD16 is out – they guilt her into answering texts when she is at school, etc. I am trying my hardest to keep DD’s relationship positive, but if he keeps interfering between the two, he will destroy it. So very sad. And I’m angry and sad that my DD18 has fallen prey to the games, but I just have to sit tight and keep quiet until we get our divorce done. I’m hoping his lies will catch up with him again soon.

Digbert
Digbert
6 years ago

Sleep – it robs you of sleep – DDay 2011, only nowadays 2018 getting solid 5-6 hrs sleep maybe 3-4 nights a week, really dread to think how much damage it’s done to my body, PTSD is very taxing……..and no, I’ve never been partial to meds to assist, never will.

duped
duped
6 years ago
Reply to  Digbert

the distress of it takes its toll. I have lost weight and have trouble sleeping. I wake in the night thinking of how I was fucked over. Mentally fucked over. My whole body hurts because it’s now killing me on a physical level. I think about all the ways that whore should pay for helping to destroy my life just by pursuing my husband and agreeing to enter into a ‘relationship’ with him just to f me over and take over my husband like he was hers. She’s a skank and she’s still playing like she is some professional entrepreneur. Still fooling everyone. I struggle day to day just to function. I am definitely not functioning at an optimal level from all the mindfuckery. . It’s debilitating And I’m so humiliated, I feel like the laughing stock. I’m embarrassed that somebody as intelligent as I am could be gotten over on!

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  Digbert

Take care of your own health. Don’t let this one Asshole have that much power of your life to let them cause anymore pain than they already have.

Sweet dreams

Alexandra
Alexandra
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

I found I aged about 5 years in one year. The sleep thing was brutal as well. Your adrenaline just keeps popping you awake. It’s like a PTSD-fog.

I also found it challenging to bond with my newborn daughter. She was my first and I found out he was cheating when I was 8 months pregnant. At that moment I didn’t want the baby anymore. (It passed, of course I love and want her). Then I told my midwife what had happened and how I felt like I didn’t want the baby anymore. Then she shamed me a lot about it and told me she hadn’t seen anything “so selfish” in all of her years of practice.

I didn’t even get to have the joy of being a family for five minutes before it was ruined by his infidelity.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Alexandra

Fuck that midwife! She’s probably a cheater????????????????????

Freer Every Day
Freer Every Day
6 years ago

My thoughts exactly

Alexandra
Alexandra
6 years ago

My daughter is 8 now. I wasnt aware of the full breadth and depth of the infidelity duringthe pregnancy until LAST YEAR. Because hey, its so much easier to gaslight your spouse for 8 years, right?

The midwife was a jerk because that same visit she also told me that she would not attend the birth as it was going to be “too far away” because it had to happen At the local hospital because my pregnancy became high-risk. At 8 months pregnant she tells me this. So after months of being on a waiting list for a midwife, she tells me that crap and cans me as a client. And no, I wasn’t “crazy/aggressive/passive-aggressive/abusive/demanding” client. I was a scared 20 something about to have my first kid just having found out about being betrayed. I’m glad she didn’t attend the birth now though. It ended up taking 3.5 DAYS. Not a typo. My daughter ended up stick at one point due to an air bubble they had to go in and pop etc. There’s lots more but let’s just say it was awful. I can’t imagine having to hang out with cowy midwife judging me through 3.5 DAYS of labour.

I will say this: if I knew how bad it actually was I would have called a lawyer instead of marital counselors the next day.

I just want to state that aside from telling the midwife and my husband how I felt about having his baby after that I NEVER in any way rejected my baby. I felt very rejected as a kid and even though I felt very low after the birth I cuddled her, sang to her etc etc etc. Did every Mom thing because even if I didn’t feel like it at the time I never wanted her to feel like I did growing up.

Luckily the feeling passed and I just really really live and adore her. She was just the cutest little thing! But the time that should have been so happy and bonding was some of the darkest days in my life.

KathleenK
KathleenK
6 years ago
Reply to  Alexandra

I’m so sorry you were so abused by your then husband and by the midwife when you were a vulnerable 8 months pregnant 20 something. I can’t even imagine. Anyone would have felt completely shell shocked by the betrayal at that stage of pregnancy. I’m sure you love your daughter with all of your heart and I do hope things are better now…

Onwards
Onwards
6 years ago
Reply to  Alexandra

Alexandra how mighty are you dealing with all this and a newborn first baby. Sad that your midwife was not more understanding or supportive. Their job is to understand and support you through the challenges whatever they may be. I hope you are able to access better community support now as your daughter grows. May you and your daughter go from strength to strength together.

Nejla
Nejla
6 years ago

Behavior of cheater X:
Stopped paying the mortgage (the “deal” was, C paid for mortgage and his expensive vehicle but I paid for everything else) around the time of meeting Shmoop and got really protective of HIS mail. Rerouted creditors so I wouldn’t find out, all the while treating me with contempt when I asked about anything financial.
Always had to “work overnights” for extra money…wink, wink…but then would sleep for days and miss his regular job…reasoning with him about that cycle was met with pity channel and, in the end, rage channel.
Told me I needed to pay for his citizenship attorney, DUI attorney, any trip we ever took, or anything “extra” because he was always financially short (he made much more money than I did) although he always had time for dinners with his buddies, golf trips, tanning salons (“for his psoriasis”), etc. Whenever I brought up the imbalance he turned to the 3 channels…charm, rage and pity, in that order.
His cheating, once I found out, affected every aspect of mine and my daughter’s life (and has adultified a 7 year old), every relationship either of us had and our peace of mind. X ALWAYS knew he could get us with the pity channel…”I’m so sorry…. It’s my depression…I would kill myself if I wasn’t with you…
BUT, in an awful way, his cheating and the subsequent realization that I was married to a pathological liar freed me from feeling the responsibility that I took very seriously to love and to cherish this…thing….that was incapable of reciprocity in the marriage. It also wiped the Love I had for him completely from my brain and just made me pissed off….that on some level I knew he was a bad person and stayed with him regardless.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Nejla

Discovery of the cheating becomes the final proof that the cheater really is a selfish jerk who doesn’t care about the feelings of the faithful spouse. It should be clear before that based on the devalue and poor treatment, but we are so good at spackling. “We all have bad days sometimes. He’s just under a lot of stress, that’s why he is being grumpy” etc.

Alas, for many of us chumps, it takes us a while to process that “proof” and recognize the truth it represents.

NotAfraid
NotAfraid
6 years ago

^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

We didn’t have children, so I guess I’m “lucky” that I am the only collateral damage to his selfishness. But, like @nomar and others have said, the theft and destruction of the life, self, partner, memories, and reality you thought you had is unbelievable.

We were long-distance for many years (never married, but committed–or so I thought). He checked out during a very rough patch of my (our?) life to live an almost 2-year long (that I know of) secret life with a skanky high school girlfriend. She was, apparently, going through a bad divorce (concurrent with my mother’s death and resulting family and financial responsibilities) and their “friendship” rekindled with him “being there for her.” Sure.

So, while I was drowning, he chose to enjoy fun, and affection, and relaxation, and companionship, and sex with someone else for almost two years, without having the decency to set me free to find the same for myself. And I needed all those things just as much as he did. Tt the time, maybe more. Not to mention that since he was representing his distance as a life/financial/career crisis of his own, I had the added worry about his emotional state.

Once you see that as not a single situation, but part of a larger pattern, it eats away at everything. I imagine an old reel-to-reel film getting stuck and the image just melting away on the screen, while the broken end of the film flaps pointlessly until you turn off the projector.

AC
AC
6 years ago
Reply to  Nejla

THIS^^^

The Cluster B disordered narcissist in him spent years making his “needs” the focus and openly despising any needs I had. Like the need for him to pay the car insurance bill. Or the needs for him to clean up the glass from the broken wind bottle in the kitchen before the glass got embedded in my feet. Or the needs to go to bed at a reasonable hour so that I could get up for work, instead of entertaining whatever irrational mindfuck he wanted to talk about until 4:30 AM.

Yes, he spent years treating me with unsupportive disdain, making sure that I knew his needs were the only needs. If there was something I needed or wanted, I was on my own. Too bad, so sad. Well…. Karma. In a very real since our marriage was already dead long before it legally ended. He didn’t want to have any concern for my needs? Fine. I started building a life without him, I got the legal and financial matters in line, and I got to to pick the day it was all over

Nejla
Nejla
6 years ago
Reply to  AC

Just wondering since you mention car insurance bill…the first few years it was, “ I’ll try to “give” you money to contribute” to me not even asking years after that. Did you experience that. Ugh. Way to make our needs small huh. It was almost like the fact that I was asking him to help contribute (when the premium was high because of HIS behavior) meant I ONLY cared about money. I just cannot believe I had such crap boundaries. Thank GOD for my therapist! I will never be that person again.

AC
AC
6 years ago
Reply to  Nejla

Yes, I did get “I’ll contribute” or “Don’t worry, I’ll pay for it when the bill arrives.” All empty promises. For him the mere promise itself was everything. Once he got the positive reaction from me, and enjoyed the goodies purchased, paying the bill was unimportant.

In my case we had already separated the finances. Long story; he had a small business. He had the fancy car used for the business, so when we decided who’d pay which bills he took the car insurance bill. And he did pay it. Until he stopped paying it, and didn’t tell me.

I found out when I got the notice that the car insurance policy was cancelled because it was paid late too many times, and it was unpaid again. I got the policy reinstated, but only because I took over the payments and had them auto-drafted from my checking account.

Newlady15
Newlady15
6 years ago
Reply to  Nejla

Yup this. I got that I only cared about money when he was the one that was constantly overspending ( including on schmoopie), and he ended up stealing our life savings( to the tune of 400k) to dump into his failing business. Then when he left I got” you we’re good for making money”. Thanks a lot a##hole.

Sionara
Sionara
6 years ago

The deceit surrounding a purportedly shared vision of how we would bring up our kids, the sacrifice of a career path. I stayed home for over a decade by choice while kids were young, then worked half time in a boring job for another decade. Ex and I both have doctorates, his career flourished–so many opportunities to travel overseas, attend conferences for weeks at a time (and conduct clandestine affairs with his colleagues on every continent), garner accolades, field job offers. I did the grunt work at home. We can’t change the past, but we can damn well change the future, and I am doing it every day.

Onwards
Onwards
6 years ago
Reply to  Sionara

Yes! “We can’t change the past, but we can damn well change the future, and I am doing it every day.”
So many years supporting, and doing the heavy lifting, planning ahead, and giving. Now he has lost that. It will benefit the teens and I going forward…

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  Sionara

Yes…I sacrificed my career options and made my needs very small while he had the primary career. For me, though…I can now see that God used all the awkward, ill-fitting, random jobs from my career to give me just the right puzzle pieces I needed so that when my family was destroyed, I had exactly what I needed to create the perfect mix of education and experience to pursue my biggest goals. For that Im quite thankful.

violet
violet
6 years ago
Reply to  Sionara

What excellent advice to all starting out on this journey none of us ever wanted to take. Infidelity robs us of so much. I cannot begin to list all the things that were taken from because of X’s infidelity. The biggest loss was the destruction of my trust of others. For my own self-preservation, I am much more cautious and even perhaps, suspicious of other people’s motives. My belief in the fundamental goodness of others has been severely damaged by X’s conduct.

At the same time, I’ll be damned if X’s cheating is going to define me or the rest of my life. It is up to me to make my own future, whatever that future may be. I refuse to allow anyone to rob me of who I am. Yes, my view of my past is colored by knowing that his claimed devotion to our family was a lie. It wasn’t my lie, though, it was his. It is now up to me to live my life as authentically as I am able.

I recently saw a short video clip by Will Smith about the difference between fault and responsibility. Essentially, he said that even when others are at fault for what has happened to us, it is our responsibility to repair the damage done. No one is going to do that for us. X blew my world apart by cheating, but I must create, as best I can, what I want my life to be from this point forward. I believe this is what we owe ourselves. So I applaud you, Sionara, for taking your life back. Leave a cheater, gain a life, indeed!

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

Alexandra — after your cheater was out of your life, do you feel like your youthfulness returned, and some of that aging was undone?

lemonbirch
lemonbirch
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

Violet — I also believe in the fundamental goodness inside of everybody. But whether or not they act in accordance with that aspect is the key. Loving and respecting the good inside of somebody while suffering through the bullshit caused by their poor choices day after day is like trying to get a good night’s sleep in a room where somebody is operating a jackhammer.

Nejla
Nejla
6 years ago
Reply to  Sionara

Yes we can!! I love this!

Whatringofhellisthis
Whatringofhellisthis
6 years ago

Wasting the last decade of my life and the real possibility that once I’m recovered and ready to date I might not be able to have the children and family that I’ve wanted so badly.
No settlement or money can ever compensate for that loss.
Also apparently self esteem is very important. How cruel it is to destroy another person’s identity and self. The struggle to remain strong assertive and successful at work while hiding that you are an unsure shaky and lost is scary and exhausting.
The positive from marrying Satan would be realizing that I’m still here and just how powerful I am. He didn’t succeed. I got a promotion during the worst year of my life. And realization that I am a successful woman all on my own brings a little smile to my face. He was wrong. I’m not a loser. I never needed a puppeteer to function properly. I am not stupid and I’m not disgusting.

duped
duped
6 years ago

whatringofhellisthis
I totally understand. I wasted all this time being stable Plan B appliance “the wife”; while narc man kept me in limbo; all the while pursuing schoompie #1 locally (a 20 min drive from home) and probably the endless opportunities at kibbles on the road…because he traveled frequently. Not to mention his numerous hobbies…and the few and far between fun things he’d throw at me. Never once did he really settle down and be a husband and want to have a true commitment and family….Red flag on his disordered brain. Yes, it was all about him and who was fair game/target /scoring/winning. or whatever was running through his mind…My point is, wasting of my time and now I am too old to have children or make a go of it with someone new…Case in point, I am sitting here alone on a Friday night. Thinking they are ALL creeps out there, not really being excited about starting over. I tried the Match thing and believe me they are all creeps on there. So, my Narc wasted my time…he had a good life and I was just somebody on stand by while he and His HO were out having fun and using marital assets, while I worked my ass off making way less than he made..but he was so “entitled” to get as much Ass on the side as he could. WOW that deceit and that double life must have been exhausting !

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago

Yes. Self esteem definitely takes a hit before and after discovery because they devalue us so much and as they are the ones we live with and interact with the most, we start to believe it. Before DDay my ex had the gall to tell me that I needed to have more “self confidence”. This after years of his cutting me down and never acknowledging the improvements I made in order to please him. At the time I said “you have a role to play in that you know”, but I might as well have been talking to a brick wall. After DDay the self esteem takes another hit because cheater prefers some slutty selfish loser over you.

The good news is that self esteem can be regained again once the one dragging it down is out of the picture and you are able to notice and receive accolades from others who do appreciate you. Congratulations on your job promotion WROHIT. I am glad your employer recognized your worth even if your loser ex didn’t. You are awesome and you know it and he was never worthy of you so he can go to hell.

Interestingly, in my case, it was when my marriage fell apart that I discovered how much I was loved and valued by other people. My family, his family and mutual friends all gave me a lot of support and all let me know that I mean a lot to them and they think he is an idiot for letting me go. His family still loves and supports him too, but they are clearly disappointed in him. He was always the golden child before, now he is the broken child.

UnderTheRadar
UnderTheRadar
6 years ago

Same. There was a substantial age difference and I stayed with my Ex for way too long because I felt like such a heel for leaving a man just before he turned 80. When I finally left a couple of HIS friends came up to me and said: “He’s a bully. Everything is fine as long as he gets his way. I can’t believe you lasted as long as you did.”

Wow.

2nd Gen Chump
2nd Gen Chump
6 years ago
Reply to  UnderTheRadar

I read a story about a woman in her nineties that divorced her husband in his nineties because he was a miserable SOB and she didn’t want to waste another day with him.

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
6 years ago

Good for you!
You figured out how awesome you are, in spite of your drag of a ‘spouse’.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago

It’s soul sucking in so many ways.
1. Disappointment:
Despite all your efforts you are stuck in a riptide with a goal in sight yet you never reach the shore.
2. Birth and death
When you are at your highest high or lowest low they suck the joy out of the blessings or add to the pain.
3. The Con
I’ll own the fact that I stayed. The con is multilayered and carried out masterfully. Power and control are all important. And the final performance when they are finally revealed they take a bow. They take pride in the roll.
4. The Victim
Playing the victim begins the day you meet. Their narrative is one of the abuses they’ve suffered. Winning is equal to the suffering and pain they’ve caused.

Chumpedincanada
Chumpedincanada
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Mine also played the victim role. I can recall our first date and he laid it on pretty thick about some family and that was given to a cousin but it should have gone to him as the eldest grandchild, blah blah blah. I completely fell for it.

Sadly, I hear around town that he is playing the victim of our relationship. Telling everyone that I “ran out” on him.
Please. Someone. Pass him a tissue.

Chumpedincanada
Chumpedincanada
6 years ago

*family land*

NoKibble4U
NoKibble4U
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

2. Birth and death
When you are at your highest high or lowest low they suck the joy out of the blessings or add to the pain.

This. Left me on the way home from a trip to scatter my beloved mother’s cremains and have a funeral for her in Hawaii, 10 months after she suddenly and unexpectedly died at age 64. I will forever despise the fucker and his whore for ruining what was my mother’s funeral. My mother deserved my grief. He did not.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  NoKibble4U

So sorry NoKibble

I too was grieving the loss of my mother.

Months later he watched smirking as she harassed me in public. Heartless soulless predators.

NoKibble4U
NoKibble4U
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Sorry for the loss of your Mom. Yes, totally understanding about the smirking and harassment. My XH and his whore enjoyed filing R/Os and Injunctions against me afterward. Serving me with divorce papers the day before my birthday. I believe whore is a Borderline – my X is her 2nd affairage now. It was almost more than I could handle. Heartless and souls describes them perfectly. I hope God shows them the same amount (none) of mercy they showed us.

Cleopatra
Cleopatra
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

I wish someone had told me about the red flag of victim playing. I’d say one of the earliest parts of the con is testing your sympathy. It is the first thing I watch for in potential relationships.

I think one huge thing infidelity unleashes in chumps is the destructive feeling of doubt. You doubt your past, your future, your self and your ability to judge other people- especially potential partners. Now that I’m a few years out, I can see an enormous amount of my mental energy has been directed towards overcoming doubt.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  Cleopatra

I discovered the website “Lovefraud” before Tracy’s blog and the key for me was people who use the pity play. Now I know when somebody is appealing to my empathetic nature it’s time to pause and pay attention.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Cleopatra

Cleopatra

Yes, the victim role is everlasting. Every perception had to be re-examined through the lens of how deep the malignancy ran through decades of tolerating his abuse.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  Cleopatra

Yeah. Mine played the victim thing too. I thought i was “saving@ him. He played me

Grendel
Grendel
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

Yep!