Is No Contact ‘Manipulative’?
Her adult child told her that OP’s boundary of no contact with her ex (the child’s dad) is “manipulative.” She thinks her ex may be behind that choice of words.
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Hi Chump Lady,
I need a quick dose of your sarcastic wit to help me reconcile with the fact that my oldest (adult) child believes their dad’s bullshit.
This (adult) child very much wants me to break no contact and thinks I’m being “manipulative” because of my no contact rule.
I believe their choice of the word “manipulative” is directly from their dad.
Their dad will often manufacture drama to try to get said child to tell me to call him, text him, etc. When really what FW wants is to further abuse me. He HATES that I’m no contact with him and lies to our child to get them to tell me to contact FW.
This same adult child also truly loves me and will often realize they’ve fallen for their dad’s bullshit and apologize. But it’s breaking my heart that they can’t see my point of view in the moment.
How do I reconcile this?
I know it’s their relationship to navigate. I get that. But what about my part in it? The part where FW manipulates them to get to me? And it works. They fall for it, and then I have to deal with the fallout and, once again, explain my boundaries.
Thanks for everything you do,
MollyWobbles
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Dear MollyWobbles,
You actually don’t have to explain your boundaries. You just need to enforce them.
I totally understand the compulsion to explain, but I promise you that’s the last thing your child wants to hear.
Here’s what an explanation looks like (based on my mail, not because I know the specifics of your ex’s fuckwittery):
Because your father is a FW. Who cheated on me. With 11 sex workers, the neighbor, and Aunt Hilda. Because I still have abnormal Pap smears. Because the financial fallout from the divorce means I’ll never retire before 80 AND he tells everyone it’s my fault his dick wanders.
As they say in politics, “If you’re explaining, you’re losing.”
Your child is well aware of your history. Enough of it any way. By behaving as if there’s something to debate, WHAT IS THE TIPPING POINT?! TWELVE SEX WORKERS?! AT WHAT POINT DOES MY PAIN MATTER TO YOU? HUH? HUH?!! you’re undermining yourself.
Just believe in the justness of your cause.
Is it emotionally healthy for you to chitchat with the guy who gave you Chlamydia? Who wasted the last decade of your life/fertility/retirement savings? If you decided that your sanity matters more than a FW’s impression management, live that. It doesn’t matter if your child or any other spectator of your life agrees or not. You’ve ALREADY explained. If they don’t agree (“What’s 12 sex workers, Mom? He’s grown a lot since then.”) that’s their problem.
This (adult) child very much wants me to break no contact and thinks I’m being “manipulative” because of my no contact rule.
Exactly what sort of outcome are you trying to manipulate here? No contact is a pretty direct message that you do not wish to be contacted. I fail to see the hidden agenda. If you gave your ex the silent treatment because you wanted him to come back and apologize, or you wanted to win the pick me dance? THAT would be manipulative. He just doesn’t like your boundary and (manipulation!) is triangulating your child to be his messenger.
Because your ex manipulates, he assumes you do too.
Again, his warped world view isn’t your problem.
Their dad will often manufacture drama to try to get said child to tell me to call him, text him, etc. When really what FW wants is to further abuse me. He HATES that I’m no contact with him and lies to our child to get them to tell me to contact FW.
Dad’s house is on fire! Call him!
Bummer.
He can’t remember how to operate the garage door opener and really needs your assistance RIGHT THIS MINUTE!
Wow.
Schmoopie got a new tattoo! Of a Phoenix!
Cool. (Delivered in the most bored tone.)
Your child will give up eventually. Just never take the bait.
Is it tragic that your child is being put in this position? Yes. But eventually they’ll stop doing it if it never gets results, or they learn boundaries themselves. Look at what a mighty example you are!
This same adult child also truly loves me and will often realize they’ve fallen for their dad’s bullshit and apologize. But it’s breaking my heart that they can’t see my point of view in the moment.
You don’t really want your child to understand your pain. That’s the Catch 22 of this entire clusterfuck. You’d have to wish unimaginable suffering on your child for them to truly understand chumpdom. And they have their own pain, and their own stupid spackle (I WANT MY MOMMY AND DADDY TO BE FRIENDS! FOR ME!) to work through. They cannot onboard yours.
You share so many other things with your child, don’t let the FW be central. Keep redirecting your energy to your new life and all the things you share. Take an interest in their new life. Keep the FW back in his Chernobyl container of radioactive sludge where he belongs.
I know it’s their relationship to navigate. I get that. But what about my part in it?
You have no part in their relationship. If your ex wants to insert himself in your life, you need to resist the urge to do the same with your child in his. No contact solves this. He’s not your problem any longer. I’m sorry he’s your child’s problem.
The part where FW manipulates them to get to me?
Shut. That. Shit. Down.
And it works.
It won’t work if you never take the bait.
They fall for it, and then I have to deal with the fallout and, once again, explain my boundaries.
We went over this. Don’t explain. Divert. There’s no fallout from Dad the FW. We’re making hot chocolate now and watching our favorite holiday movies. Who brought the matching PJs? Extra marshmallows?
Make new memories. He’s yesterday’s news. Who cares what he’s up to? Not you.
My latest read is Dr Isabelle Morley’s book They’re Not Gaslighting You, addressing the social media fueled trend of increased everyday use, and misuse, of therapy terms and concepts, and how to respond when it happens. A trend I’ve noticed that has been driving me bananas, as someone who learned about these ideas back in the 80’s when I started counseling with a brilliant therapist.
https://apple.news/Ad2qfWRmmR-evAf-Rp8aQHA
Traitor Ex told our daughter that he is the victim of narcissistic abuse. Thankfully, the therapists who have been counseling us for many years were on hand to set the record straight.
Gift link:
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/2025/12/therapy-speak-therapy/685218/?gift=jcUtl0X0TirN2g4ocLknr4aQ_68mKLSGG7J_GImttQw&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
Yes, I’ve observed the same. My ex was formally diagnosed with NPD/BPD by a licensed therapist, but everyone and his brother is just sure that half the people they don’t like are that. Mostly, I smile now and say, “That’s rough.”
When I was in the divorce process, I told my attorney, who just nodded. Months in, my attorney apologized for not taking that seriously and told me he had consulted a therapist friend who owed him a favor for more background. Yes, my STBX was legitimately that.
Ironically, there’s someone currently on the outskirts of my life who is also using therapy to weaponize against a friend and me. This woman even tries to divide us by telling us different things. It’s not going to happen. We know better and talk frequently. Games…
My STBX was also formally diagnosed with NPD by a psychiatrist, after a battery of tests. Thing is, people don’t really understand what it really means, it has becme a synonym for “selfish.”
The difference between a selfish person and a narcissist is an entire universe. A selfish person can annoy you, be obnoxiously self-focused and cause angst and frustration. If your partner is a narcissist you will be lucky to survive, you will be damaged, and the only question is to what degree.
I have had so many people refer to my ex as a narcissist. I avoid the word at all costs. My therapist made it clear that she could not diagnose him as he is not her patient, but did say he shows many narc *traits* that said, several disorders have overlapping traits and there was something else he seemed to show more signs of. Again, NOT a diagnosis. I think the terms can be helpful in some ways, in that for example if your FW shares narc traits, you might understand their behaviours a bit more or be able to handle them better if you read up on narcissists. But the word is SO overused that I feel like we can look like the boy that cried wolf if everyone in chump nation is yelling “my FW is a narc” from the rooftops. Most aren’t. Many are more run of the mill assholes that do some narc-type things. And of course, then there are some cgumps dealing with the “real deal”. But one thin is for sure, we all have dealt with so many of the same thigs regardless of any diagnosis or not.
My therapist said she couldn’t diagnose my mother, as she was not her patient, but in her professional opinion… “she sounds like a real bitch”.
I laughed so hard.
We know. It’s a whole mindset and a lifestyle.
My ex basically didn’t have a single honest relationship. He had to control the narrative and largely fooled people. Not the attorneys, though. My attorney went so far as to use the word “evil” more than a few times, and in time, my ex’s attorney even got on the bandwagon, calling my ex his “worst client ever” and “my delusional client.” He even told my attorney that he felt genuinely sorry for me because his client was just such a wreck, and I didn’t seem to deserve that at all.
There was nothing to salvage. Thankfully, I didn’t have custody issues and was able to cut him out of everything in the end.
Hi Elsie:
Oh yeah. The problem isn’t that chumps don’t know: we’ve had the baptism of fire into that unholy world. The issue is civilians, which is what I call people who have never been chumped/in a relationship with a narcissist. For the most part,they have no clue about this world.
In my women’s group there is a woman whose husband stepped over the prone body of his collapsed daughter who’d just been released from hospital after her suicide attempt, to get out the door to his AP. Normal people don’t have any idea of what it is like to live with someone like that. Nor do they necessarily believe us, because unfathomable.
My FW was eating at the restaurant where my daughter is a hostess. A crazy customer became unhappy when she told him there would be a wait for a table. He threatened to come back to shoot up the restaurant, especially her. Her manager told her to get in the kitchen. The police were called. Everyone was telling my daughter not to go home alone. At one point, a customer gave a $50 tip for her. FW went back into the kitchen, saw our daughter was distraught and crying, and said, “Whelp, I’ve got a movie to catch. Bye.” Someone else brought her home and stayed with her.
“For the most part,they have no clue about this world.”
ChumpLady is changing that.
But you are so spot on. The problem with navigating a post-Chumpdom life is that so few people understand what you are actually going through. They lack the ability to understand how deeply it affects ALL facets of your life. And how wide the breach of betrayal is. I swear the next time I see an article where someone says “the heart wants what it wants” I am going to fly to wherever the author lives and feed them the entire magazine with my fist.
We see chumps giving up careers, moving across the country and any other number of big deal choices that they base on thinkling they are in a happy strong marriage only to find out this was done becaus of the AP that they had no idea existed. Or their retirement was spent on sex workers. Or…some other horror.
Therapy concepts weaponized by a cheater is particularly irksome. You understandably and reasonably end your relationship with someone who intentionally caused catastrophic damage, abuses you, and then YOU are accused of being manipulative? That’s psychological abuse on top of it. I’d have difficulty processing that one too. I’m glad to hear the daughter comes around.
Traitor Ex has jumped on the weaponization-of-therapy-speak bandwagon. He now says “we remember things differently” when confronted with a lie. (This is one from a social-media-prescribed list of responses to narcissists).
I referenced a book and an article on the subject in my initial comment, which is awaiting moderation.
In the meantime, remember to pause, breathe, and consider the source. You can’t control what they say and to whom they say it. Remember, your daughter IS talking to you. That’s the thing to practice focusing on.
♥️
Velvethammer,
>“We remember things differently.”
I had no idea that was a therapy speak term. I had that one used on me when I was attempting my final round of reconciliation with my diagnosed bipolar pill addict mother,, who prioritizes her limerance objects over anything else and I tried to be open an honest with her about how it affected my upbringing and why it impacts our relationship to this day.
Here is the entire mindfuck as written by a FW parentst trying to manipulate their adult child when adult child tries to hold them accountable to their actions (my examples included child safeguarding issues that escalated to police involvement in two states from her involvement with a known stalker of my eldest minor child, court recognized child neglect, child endangerment, child abuse of myself as a minor).
“I’m not avoiding you. You deserve honesty. Many of your points are valid. By the way, I’m more than willing to accept responsibility and listen to your little story. You asked me to reflect before I respond to you. I’m not perfect. If I was self important I wouldn’t be in therapy. You express yourself better than me. If we are to have an honest conversation, we may not always agree about things. I might not always remember conversations or situations the same way as you do that’s human nature. One more thing I want to be treated with common courtesy not like a drill instructor barking out orders. I’d like us to work together with mutual respect to resolve our issues.”
Mollywobbles, be the sane lighthouse/ safe harbor to your adult children in the storm that is their FW parent. Only they can realize when enough is enough and noone in their right mind wants to cut off a living parent prematurely.
“I’m more than willing to accept responsibility and listen to your little story.”
This is infuriating and sounds a lot like my ex. “Your little story”? It’s that snarky, dismissive TONE that completely makes the “I am willing to accept responsibility” null and void. Much like “I’m sorry for xyz but…..” The “but” negates the apology.
My FW loves to add little dismissive and snarky commentary into his texts. I am as low contact as I can be with kids. I only respond to things I HAVE to respond to. If he sends two paragraphs full of baloney, but somewhere in there he asks “Is kiddo feeling better after having a cold?” My response to a wall of text from him will be “Yes, kiddo is feeling much better” That is it. I will not engage with ANY of his baloney.
It’s been that way for a year. Prior to that, I WOULD take the bait and end up in these long debates over, gosh, I don’t even know what the debates were about. Who was more at fault for his affair?
A year ago, I let him know I was done engaging. And I meant it. For a year, I have been avoiding the bait. It has made his blow ups less frequent. He used to try to fight several times a week. Long, drawn out text wars. Once I stopped engaging the regularity lessened. He’d still try. Sometimes I would have WALLS of texts from him that went on and on, with NO response from me. Over the course of the year, they got less frequent. Now it’s as few as one or two times a month. Well right now it has increased bc the holidays make him extra hostile. But overall, it has decreased and I am certain it is bc it isn’t any fun if I don’t respond. And not respondig can be hard because he says the most inflammatory stuff! Calls me a baby. Threatens to take me to court.
But he DOES treat this similarly to what OP experiences. He says I am playing games. Being childish.etc. Most of the language he uses is like your ex with the “Your little story”. Occasionally there is a victim card thrown in, it’s so unfair that I won’t what..be his friend?
I leave him alone. I wish he would do the same.After everything he did to me and my kids, the least he could do is just stop trying to abuse us more.
At some point my kids will be 18 and I will block his number. I can’t do that now, the court system frowns on such behaviour. But I will say it seems so very unfair that this FW blew up all our lives, and he can continue his abuse. I should not have to listen to his rage, snark, rude and dismissive commentary. In the meantime, I keep my side of the street clean and should the day come that I do end up in front of a judge, my text history really speaks for itself. Pages and pages of his impotent rage with my bland factual responses interspersed only when absolutely neccessary.
MollyWobbles,
On occasion I have had to explain to people why I am no contact with Ex-Mrs LFTT and, like you, out children are all now adults. I simply state that this boundary is in place to protect me and that if Ex-Mrs LFTT interprets it as a punishment, then that’s a “her problem” not a “me problem.”
Thankfully, my children understand why this is the case.
LFTT
I understand that it isn’t a punishment. But also, so what if it WAS? She did terribe things to you. You don’t want to engage with her. You don’t have to. There are over 8 billion people in the world. You don’t deal with MOST of them. Why would you go out of your way to deal with one that screwed you over?
This really isn’t so much about “not getting over it”, it is about not wanting an untrustworthy asshole in your life. Don’t we all avoid those in general?
I wish both of my children could understand.
You have a rather uncommon situation here among chumps, due to the FW ongoing lawsuit years after divorce in order to reneg on alimony I recommend putting YOURSELF first now, oxygen mask on the plane style.
Given your age you don’t have a long time to generate income before retirement and that should be you number one focus right now. Whatever your kid is doing / not doing is actually secondary right now. A friend’s child colluded with the FW dad years after divorce during his lawsuit and cost her six figures. Teen was manipulated by FW into the role. She had to whisper to me from a bathroom during phone calls so the child wouldn’t give away info to FW.
Be very careful, keep focus on the litigation. You need money for your retirement and your kid isn’t going to provide that apologies or not. Save yourself first!
My children always come first, but yes, you are right. I am wholly screwed. I was a SAHM so I have no career, no money of my own, other than a part-time job and a business I’m trying to get started in my golden years. This lawsuit is unnecessarily cruel on FW’s part and he knows it. The language in the suit is insulting and demeaning and salt in the wounds he’s already given me. I can’t even think about retiring. I don’t think it’s in the cards for me now. I’ll have to work until I die.
I’m sorry it’s so unfair but it means you must put yourself first. One attorney said I would get lifetime alimony but I did not pursue it for fear of the exact scenario you’re facing: litigation abuse to cut off alimony early.
Consider this:
When aging parents look at raiding their retirement accounts for the kids’ college tuition a competent advisor tells them NO, absolutely not! Let kids get student loans you don’t have the time/years they have. Same concept applies here. Your oxygen mask first.
The more pressing issue is how are you going to win the lawsuit/get money? Don’t let these distractions get to you.
They don’t necessarily have to understand your reasons. They just have to accept that this is how it is.
Very true.
MW,
I suspect that your children do understand, but that they find it easier to push onto you (as the sane parent) than they do to push back against the father. The boundary that they need to set with him (which they will hopefully come to understand in time) is that their father should not try to triangulate them into his attempts to communicate with you.
I hope that it works out and apply the “Cool/Bummer/Wow” approach until it does.
LFTT
That’s an excellent point. FW is manipulating the child and using her/him for his own aims, and the child knows that refusing FW’s requests to intercede on his behalf leads to emotional abuse. So the child does what FW wants and pushes Molly so the child can avoid having to say no to FW. Of course it would be best for the child not to be around FW either, but since that isn’t going to happen the child would be wise to just shine FW on and agree to try to get Molly to bend, then just say it didn’t work. “Sorry Dad, but it is what it is. She isn’t going to change her mind.”
Cool. Bummer. Wow.
When I went no contact during the divorce process, my college kids ultimately joined me in that. I came home from an attorney appointment and told them that was what he was recommending. I told them that so if Dad ranted at them, they knew what was up. He was only texting and emailing at that point. They talked it out when I was away and said, “We’re doing it too.”
And they remained there, even post-divorce. When he finally invited them to visit over the holidays four years after he left, they didn’t respond. My ex sent me a ranty email (of course), and I said basically that they had made their decision by not getting back to him.
So that was that. It’s been a few years now since we heard from him. Blessed silence.
I’ve done cool bummer wow until I’m blue in the face. FW has taught this particular child that that is manipulative. I still do it, but it’s really misinterpreted.
I don’t know if this will help, but reading your story, it occurred to me that intent is what matters here. Stonewalling (in order to punish, or to get someone else to apologize or come back) is indeed manipulative. But it doesn’t sound like that’s your intent here, and I agree with Tracy’s advice to stay strong and hold your course.
What may be going on is projection, and your child cannot consider the source in order to realize FW is not a reliable narrator. So from FWs perspective, he may think the only reason someone would go no contact is in order to manipulate them, because that’s the way that many of these FWs behave themselves. He may not be able to comprehend any other possibility, and your child may a bit overly trusting whenever they hear his take.
No conact is the position most protective of you and your children. I say that because if it works that you respond to him because your child said X thing that FW wanted him to say, then your ex will ramp up his exploitation of your child to see what other kibble he can get.
I like Molly’s statement “These boundaries are in place to protect myself.” Simple and direct, and makes the point that FW wants to hurt you when he violates them.
Yes. I’ve absolutely said that to my kid. I think they understand that pretty well. I think it’s the thing that most snaps them out of the trance FW seems to put them in from time to time.
MollyWobbles, what stands out to me is that you have set a boundary and the fuckwit father is calling it manipulative. Manipulation is sneaky way for somebody to get what they want. A boundary is an express line that you, personally, won’t cross. These freaks constantly accuse people of what they are actually doing.
If your adult child is not aware, you should consider explaining that particular pathology. I think most of us here have been accused of cheating or stealing marital assets. It’s good for young adults to know when anyone accuses them of doing something bad, it may be because that person is the One doing the Bad Thing.
The next time this comes up tell your kid that boundaries are not manipulative. Maybe add that you don’t really care what’s going on with Dad because he is not a part of your life. His drama is not your problem. (Feel free to refer to him as a drama queen.) Your divorce was your formal notice that his problems are no longer your problems.
My ex used to say that he didn’t like drama. It was a lie. He ADORED causing drama as long as he was using it to manipulate others into falling in line with his wishes. Young adults are very aware of drama queens and the problems they cause. If your kid can internalize the fact that their dad is just trying to cause drama. Again. <eye roll> Then she/he will probably have less stress when dealing with Drama Daddy.
A FW parent has had a lifetime of manipulating their adult children and enabling family members into the belief that what they are doing is normal. If their adult child decides to stand up for themselves, they will have help to pay.
For example, my mother is an absolute FW. She has spent years manipulating people into doing her bidding. When I was no contact with her… for safety reasons after finding out her involvement with/ my exFW’s bunny boiler stalking us and meddling in our interstate custody case for the kid he abandoned… After my youngest child was born, my mother implemented every possible means to gather information about the newest grandchild. My Nana tried to sweet-talk her way into having me text her a picture, which I knew she would forward to my mom. I politely declined and told her I wanted to do something special, and said I’d send something out formally when I was ready. I was cussed out for not giving her a picture of “the damn baby”. She now tells everyone who will listen that I am just as manipulative as my mom warned her about over the years, and proudly proclaims that she wants nothing to do with me. It still hurts.
The smear campaigns sometimes start early and extend beyond the harmed spouse. The threat of impending ostracism is real, and a lot of people will continue to eat the sh*t sandwiches to avoid further pain. There are no winners in this situation.
Unfortunately my exFW is currently suing me. So his drama is my drama at the moment. He triangulates this particular kid with manufactured bullshit about the case. I have told this child that is for our lawyers to discuss and that I want nothing to do with FW at all. I think he might be getting the point now.
If your ex is suing you, all the more reason to say absolutely nothing about your FW to anyone.
Yes, exactly. This is what I’m trying to get across to my kid. I say “Your father can contact me any time he wants through our lawyers” but FW has taught this child that saying that is manipulative. According to FW we “need to keep lines of communication open” and Kid agrees. I don’t know what to do about that.
I assume you have tried explaining until you are blue in the face, but what stuck out here to me was “fw has taught chil that saying that is manipulative”.
Here’s the thing, manipukation by definition is sneaky and tries to hide.
If you outright SAY “I will not speak to him” that isn’t manipulation. You are making your moves out in the light, boldly and without any hiding.
Also manipulating is sneakily trying to force somene to do something that benefits you. Perhaps. “Hey, my lovely child, what do you think I am trying to manipulate dad to DO? I am trying to not speak to him at all, so what is it that you think I am trying to gain here other than peace and quiet?”
And sure, you don’t WANT to talk to FW directly, but also, hasn’t your lawyer advised you NOT to? Isn’t that frowned on when an ongoing case is on the books?
Maybe Kid is convinced, deep down, if you drop No Contact things will go back to “normal.” And everyone will be happy.
Yes, I do think that’s part of it.
Molly, it’s your boundary and you have every right to hold onto it to protect your peace. If it irritates the FW then that is too bad. A boundary protects you, it is not meant to do anything other than that. Your adult child will eventually get tired of being the middle man. In the meantime if the subject of the FW comes up do as CL says “cool, bummer, wow”’.
You cannot break NC because that only provides FW with kibble and he gets that from other sources now and not you.
My exFW has tried to contact both me and our son. Both of us are completely no contact. The attempts of contact have dramatically decreased since strictly enforcing this (our son will be 31 in a few months).
Hold onto your boundaries because they protect you and are not there to punish or manipulate anyone.
My other adult child is NC with FW and has been for years. I think that is the reason that exFW tries so hard to triangulate my oldest. He’s desperate to get us both back into his life. And the oldest child is the only one left who talks to him anymore.
Perhaps it is helpful to take a breath and calmly ask Oldest a few food for thought questions.
Like “When you say it’s manipulation, can you tell me a bit more about that? What do you think No Contact is manipulating Ex to do?”
“You’ve seen our history and how Ex is. What do you think a non-manipulative method to disengage with him would be?”
“What do you think me staying in touch with him would accomplish?”
“I am sorry to hear that Ex is still trying to put you in the position of being a go-between. You shouldn’t have to do that and I encourage you to tell him no. Ex has my attorney’s contact information. Is there anything I can do to be there for you directly?”
100% I agree this is the way to go, make it a teachable moment and help Oldest recognize manipulation which is a key life skill.
Unfortunately I can see kids outgrowing the ‘cool bummer wow’ deflect to other topic strategy, and eventually all being twisted into Chump not caring about FW friendly efforts, ill health, loneliness in old age whatever BS. I only have to look at former MIL as an example.
I’ve literally said iterations of all of those questions to them. But because, in the moment, they believe their dad’s bullshit, they have answers right back. When their dad is crying (literally) to them on the other line and I’m holding firm, I look like the asshole. “But Dad is so sad!” My response is always cool, bummer, wow. And I hold firm. But in that, I end up looking like the asshole. When really it’s exFW who is using Charm Pity Rage Repeat and kid just doesn’t know it.
I am sorry Molly, this is hard for everyone. Especially in the moment with a crying Ex on the phone and your kids stressed and wanting you to handle him like you have in the past.
I wish I had a magic answer to give you, but I don’t.
Sometimes it’s accepting that your kids may not agree with your choices right now. Maybe never. But that doesn’t mean it’s the wrong choice. Sometimes it may involve looking like an asshole, and making peace with that too. Even normal breakups involve someone upset even if there’s no “wrong”. Your Ex’s feelings aren’t your responsibility, and modeling that with the kids can be hard and feel cruel, but it’s to protect yourself, not to be punitive. It may not be something they fully understand until they see it in their adult lives.
Sometimes you can only say “I know this is hard on all of us. I wish this wasn’t happening and that I didn’t feel I had to do this. I know you don’t agree with this, but also I never want you to be in the middle of what’s happening between Ex and I and I will do all I can from my side not to put that burden on you. We’ll keep talking, and I am here for you even if you’re upset with me or wish I was doing things differently.”
Once it is done and if they’re older, you can consider giving them access to all court transcripts so they can see it themselves if they choose to. You can only give them as much of the truth as you can in a way that also doesn’t force them to take sides. You can’t decide what they do with it, that’s up to them.
Whatever boundaries you can do to avoid these “crying on the phone.” Situations for all of your sakes is best. But sometimes it’s just trudging through a shitty situation as best you can.
Thank you so much. I love the sentence “I am here for you even if you’re upset with me or wish I was doing things differently.” I am definitely going to use that!
I am hoping someday that this child will see that what I’m doing is the right thing for my health and safety. Until then, I will hold firm.
I like this idea. A caution to be mindful of keeping the conversation focused on the child and their thoughts, rather than letting it slip into ruminations about what FW is doing, thinking, or hoping to accomplish. I agree with CL that the relationship with the father is something to stay out of but helping a child learn to deal with FWiterry, from their father or anyone, is always something a sane parent wants to do. If you want to avoid a conversation but still send a message, something as simple as “I’m sorry your father has put you into this difficult position, let’s have hot chocolate with the movie?” can be a powerful lesson. That is similar to your last proposed question but does not invite conversation.
Whatever the OP decides, I’m sure it won’t be the last opportunity to try out different approaches. It is so hard to watch your children learn to cope with a FW parent, but learn they must. And the sane parent can be there through it all as a reliable place to land and a shining example of boundaries.
This is very true. I do think it’s ok, especially with adult kids, to get to a point where we say “Hey, I hear you and understand how you feel. But the decision has been made to protect me, and with consultation from my lawyer. I care about you, and understand that you empathize with Ex. It’s hard on all of us. But I need you to accept that this is my choice. It’s not a debate.
Just as I shouldn’t and wouldn’t tell you how to handle your relationship with Dad, the relationship between him and I is for the two of us to figure out. You and I debating on how I handle it is stressful for is both. Your Dad had my lawyer’s contact if he needs it. Please don’t pressure me on his behalf. I love you and want you to talk about how you feel, but this may just be something we have to agree to disagree on.”
Or “I understand your father feels this is manipulative and you may agree. I don’t want to be manipulative, but also have learned that No Contact is what I need to do for peace and to move forward. I’ve also been advised by my lawyer. I am not intentionally hurting him or doing it at him as a punishment. I will let you know if something changes, but this decision isn’t open for debate anymore.”
That was absolutely beautifully worded! I’m going to copy and it and put it in my journal to memorize. Thank you!
I agree with those suggestions. Firm, but loving.
Their dad will often manufacture drama to try to get said child to tell me to call him, text him, etc.
Maybe say something like, “I hear what you’re saying, but your father is not my husband anymore. It’s up to him to handle his own life, and he shouldn’t put you in the position of relaying requests or demands for him.” Or laugh off how ridiculous that is. “It’s ridiculous for him to ask you to ask me. I doubt he forgot how to dial a phone or has trouble texting.” (Unless you changed your number, in which case you can thank your daughter for not giving it to him.)
Maybe your daughter needs to know what she can say to her dad when he tries to triangulate her like this. She may need to know she can tell him, “Please stop putting me in the middle,” or “If you want to contact mom, it’s up to you to contact her directly.”
I don’t know who originated this, but another useful approach is the “DEEP” technique: Do not Defend, Engage, Explain, or Personalize.
Since adult daughter later apologizes, it sounds like he is triggering your daughter by demanding she gets you to contact him. Maybe you could point that out to her, not in the heat of a demand, but at a quiet time. Let her know it’s not fair for him to make HER distressed when they both know you are no contact.
You mentioned she’s the oldest and adult daughter. Maybe you could find a therapist for brief family counseling to have a therapist explain this. If oldest daughter holds firm and there are others, he’ll probably pressure them next.
Congratulations on maintaining your boundaries despite his pressure.
I’ve never heard of DEEP, thank you for that! That is extremely helpful. I should tattoo it on my forehead! I’m a chronic over explainer.
Everyone is assuming my child is a girl, but I never said that. They’re my oldest, yes, but I’ve left gender out on purpose (public site and I know exFW stalks). Either way, they’ve been in therapy for over a decade so therapy is well covered. I’m not sure it helps, but they’ve been in therapy for ages.
Thanks for addressing this. I don’t know if I simply assumed it was a daughter or if I did so after reading comments.
I’ve left gender out on purpose (public site and I know exFW stalks).
This is something I also do, which sometimes makes things a bit convoluted. I usually say “tween now teen.” And leave out parts of the story he could point to and say, “See, she’s talking about ME!” Although cheaters really do seem to sue the same playbook, and none of them seem original.
Yes, I’m very fearful of him finding my posts here. But I’m no longer on FB and so I don’t participate there anymore and this site is all I have left of Chump Nation. But I worry that he’ll find me here and use it against me somehow.
It’s unclear to me if chump hid the reason for divorce from the adult child or really downplayed it as one would to a toddler? That would perhaps explain a lot?
Oh no, this kid knows what their dad did. They’re very upset about it. But they also have a pretty close relationship to their dad to this day, despite all of the behavior that caused the divorce. My other adult child no longer speaks to exFW and hasn’t for years.
Perhaps this is a key point to make? That you wouldn’t or shouldn’t tell them how to communicate or manage their relationship with their Father. But on the same hand, it’s not ok for them to keep pressuring you or Sibling to have conversations or a relationship you don’t want with him.
It’s ok if they don’t agree with your choice, they may make choices you don’t always agree with too. But at some point it’s ok to set a boundary with them and say “I am happy to talk about how you feel, or how I can be there for you. But in regards to no contact, that decision has been made and it’s not open for debate. It’s between Ex, me and our Lawyers. Especially as he’s suing me for our home, I am following legal advice. I am sorry Ex is putting all this pressure on you. It’s not your problem to solve. I’m asking that you respect this choice just as I respect yours.”
“I am sorry Ex is putting all this pressure on you. It’s not your problem to solve. I’m asking that you respect this choice just as I respect yours.”
This is perfect! An adult child is old enough to get this message, especially if it is delivered calmly and with empathy. They may not like it as they can’t deliver for their jerk of a father, and they will have to work through that discomfort. FWs force children, even adult children, into difficult lessons. This is where the sane parent is so important – it’s a tough place to be, Molly. Keep breathing and keep us posted how it goes in the coming days.
Yuup.
After the conversation it’s ok to be a bit of a broken record. Like “We’ve already discussed this and my answer hasn’t changed. Let’s change the topic.”
Or even “If this is all you want to talk about, maybe we need to cut this phone call short and get on with our day. I love you and will call next week to talk about Grandma’s birthday/dogsitting.”
I can relate to you MollyWobbles, my Cheater Ex misused therapy language and weaponized it against me during separation. I think he still goes around telling others what a monster I am, couched in therapy terms.
It pains me that my adult kids don’t see how Machiavellian and sadistic he can be towards me. Most recently, my own eldest child – the most observant one! – saw something he had written which was blatant and awful and she said “I don’t think he meant to hurt you”.
There’s no point in trying to convince her otherwise. But he ABSOLUTELY meant to hurt me. I am getting closer to no contact, myself for that very reason.
CL and other commenters have given great suggestions. All the best to you as you hold fast to no contact, and navigate these waters with your kids. By holding fast to no contact, you’re protecting them, too.
So she did recognize that it was, in fact, hurtful. That is something.
Perhaps you could ask her why she thinks that was not his intent and talk about her analysis of the situation. As I said above, the danger is that you slip into talking about the FW rather than her but it may be worth exploring. “How would you feel if that were written to you, dear?” In my own situation, the FW pulled many of the same shenanigans on our kids as they grew into adults as he had on me when we were married and then divorcing. As CL says, there are only so many chess moves on the board, and FWs aren’t all that original. This lawsuit will end, but if the daughter is going to continue to have a relationship with her father, she may view him differently as time progresses and she gains life experience. God, they suck.
Indeed! Thanks, Fern.
I felt every word of this. Thank you so much for responding. My ex has turned me into a monster too and it is mind boggling. He is currently suing me to take my house and stop paying me alimony and is blaming me for it! It’s insane. And when he brings my child into it I want to scream. I don’t. But I want to.
Litigation abuse is horrible. I’m so sorry, Molly.
It really is. Thank you.
That’s so cruel, MollyWobbles! I’m so sorry. Stay strong, and keep “grey rocking” in front of your eldest. We in Chump Nation are cheering you on!
Thank you so much Tracy! I guess I just needed confirmation that sticking to my boundaries is the right thing to do. It is really hard in the moment, but I haven’t broken them yet. I’ll keep it up! And I’ll let Kiddo deal with their FW dad and his attempts at triangulation.
It’s no coincidence that he’s ramping up the fuckwittery to break no contact while he’s suing you. You do NOT want to give this freak a portal into your life. Stay strong! I’m so sorry you’re going through this. But consider that keeping your hands clean — by NOT ENGAGING — is a very good legal position.
Excellent point! Yes, this is the very smart legal tactic. I hadn’t even thought of that. I was just trying to preserve my sanity. We’re divorced but I still feel very much under his thumb, especially with this bullshit lawsuit. It’s like he still has control over my life and he is still calling the shots. I hate that he’s dragging my kid into it too. It’s weaponized legal abuse.
I’m dealing with this right now. An adult child who suddenly has weekly contact with Cheaty McLiarface and is now beginning to have the same attitude and use the same language as him when communicating with me. This child does not want to hear the truth from me and has parroted Cheaty’s narrative that we both didn’t want to be divorced. I corrected that lie as gently and succinctly as possible. I also didn’t let the idea stand that there are two sides to every story and the truth lies in the middle. Nope! When it comes to infidelity betrayal the truth lies only on the side of the betrayed. The truth of the betrayer consists of whatever lies they are telling at that time to rationalize their behaviors and and are completely irrelevant.
All I can do is be honest with this child and wait it out.
Have you shared some of the evidence? It may be helpful?
A secret double life involves so many lies over years that even for adults it’s hard to grasp. For a while close friends were also bamboozled by FW pity party lies!
Even now, friends are still processing this! However, having seen the PI evidence and my screenshots they know now that FW is a superb actor liar. It’s so beyond the pale of normal existence even for adults.
Your FW is also saying he’s “being honest” so who can the kid believe?
I don’t know the answer Molly. I do know that because I “have the receipts” as the kids say and not afraid to show it, that really helped my own credibility with friends and neighbors and why nobody dares to question how I am near NC (minor children cannot do 100%)
The receipts are harder for enablers and flying monkeys to dispute.
Example: I used a screenshot of a court order that named my mother by name and detailed her criminal neglect towards me as a minor after I finally worked up the courage to tell my biblical forgiveness troll aunt to stop sending my kids gifts after she acted like nothing happened after she wrote a f*cked up Tamar/Absolom/King David bitter forgiveness letter. I used some of the talking points in the OG chump lady post. She had no idea about anything I went through as a minor or any of the details about my brother’s ongoing treachery, and she apologized. I forgave her for not knowing. I don’t forgive her for continuing to push reconciliation based on her pr fence to follow the What Would Jesus Do book from the 1800s and pushing me to accept gifts for my kids from relatives they don’t know because kids like stuff… I shut it down using Bible verses and stopped responding.
Long story short, receipts only get you so far; the cognitive dissonance justifying the entire event and abuse afterwards is an entirely different issue.
My evidence consists of his response letter to my infidelity betrayal impact letter that the therapist told us to write. Problem is he never actually gave me that letter. I found it hidden years after I stopped counseling in part because the so called therapist didn’t administer or complete the theraputic letter writing process correctly. Plausible deniability is always in play for Cheaty.
The child is desperate to maintain a relationship in part because he never saw the abuse growing up. I presented a picture postcard marriage to the world. I created that and now I have to wait patiently and hope that with time the truth will be known. Not in a punitive way against the man I chose as their father. But in a way that the child will understand at a deeper level why I had to divorce his father.
I feel you. I’m so sorry. That is what I am going through too. It’s incredibly painful.
Abusers can never own that their own negative mental states, chaotic emotions and malignant thoughts and behaviors are all self-generated so will accuse the handiest scapegoat– typically a partner or ex partner though sometimes children, parents, siblings, etc.– of “deliberately” causing these things.
From what I’ve read and seen, I think that externalization of malignant states and thoughts is part of what makes abusers so potentially dangerous– because, in their twisted little brains, they paranoically see victims as evil and deserving punishment, ergo any terrible thing that abusers do to victims would be justified.
Basically the degree of punishment abusers believe victims deserved is directly proportionate to how evil the abuser’s secret thoughts are and how torturous the internal state. So I think this mechanism goes beyond the old adage that “every accusation by a narcissist is confession” but reflects just how frightening their internal states and thoughts really are that they cannot own them and need to externalize them… as in potential thoughts of suicide and/or murder.
Furthermore, I figure that, considering how high rates of post-separation domestic murder are, for every actual OJ or Fotis Dulos there are countless “Walter Mitty” would-be domestic killers who simply heavily fantasize about offing their partners or exes. But, though these impulses may forever remain as ineffectual ruminations for many, it’s really a game of roulette to guess which of them might eventually “muster” and act on these thoughts.
Even if the above evil impulses are never openly expressed, I think victims trapped in proximity to these would-be OJs will sense the potentiality on some lizard brain level.
I’m afraid that might be the real subtext here: that, by remaining in any kind of contact with Molly’s ex-abuser, Molly’s adult child is having their autonomic “risk management” faculty (i.e., ancient lizard brain) bombarded with obtuse but terrifying signals about what dad might be capable of if “push” ever came to “shove.”
In other words, the diplomacy may be a fear-based attempt to keep things from ending up on the six o’clock news. It might explain why the adult child seems to see-saw back and forth between apologizing for playing emissary but then impulsively doing it again.
In a way, it’s possible the diplomacy is being undertaken out of love and loyalty but not for Molly’s ex. It’s to keep Molly safe. In any event, it sounds like Molly’s adult child might need deprogramming therapy to undo the Stockholm syndrome they may have developed as a child “hostage” of a mentally malignant dad whose Chernobyl sludge is still radiating onto Molly’s child.
Of course the irony of Stockholm syndrome/captor bonding is that it only works to inspire mercy from paranoically telepathic captors/abusers to the extent that the victim of it doesn’t recognize that they’re in a captor-bonded state. In fact, if anyone tells them that they’re captor-bonded while they’re in the heavy throes of it, this is perceived as placing the individual or anyone they love in greater danger. In that sense, perhaps an expert in coercive control would know what wires to cut or not cut in order to gradually undo the booby-trapped mental cage that Molly’s adult child may be in.
Yes, Walter Mitty syndrome. I used to believe that this was just a harmless state of over indulging in daydreaming. Now I understand that it causes massive dissociation that can lead to rationalized violence. Cheaty McLiarface admitted that his W.M.S. caused him to take what was good in our marriage and inflate it beyond reality. Treat the negatives the same and the foundation is laid for justifying removing the obstacle to his eternal state of limmerant bliss (and keeping all of the assets)… me.
I am still wrapping my head around the fact that I need to be fearful of the man I slept next to for close to forty years. It gives me a small measure of peace that he knows that I am able and more than willing to defend myself.
Me too. Close to 30 years sleeping next to me was a man considering a fatal accident for me and stealing 7 figure sum.
A lot of HOAC posts resonate with me even though I never read those research papers.
My lizard brain grabbed the reins early on it seems. FW narcopath knows that I’m not a shut up turn the other cheek “enlightened” sort, and perfectly capable of An Eye for an Eye anger if provoked. Which honestly is probably protecting me to a degree 🤔
This is so helpful to read, thank you! It helps me understand how my “lizard brain” or gut sense or what have you, compelled me to FLEE my now ex. I left in a Lyft when he stepped out to get a hair cut.
MollyWobbles,
It is craptastic that ex FW is putting your oldest in the middle as his agent.
You already know who FW is and your oldest child is going to have to get somewhere close to that while maintaining a relationship with him. As their parent you want to alleviate and minimize the damage your ex FW is doing to the child. This is the child’s lesson to learn. If you have to have a conversation with oldest about this explain to the child that they should not be the broker in your and your exes relationship. If your ex has a need they can reach out to you directly (or not).
Hopefully, in the end the eldest will just tell FW — i am not your go between deal with her yourself.
MollyWobbles replied to GoodFriend: “Everyone is assuming my child is a girl, but I never said that. They’re my oldest, yes, but I’ve left gender out on purpose (public site and I know exFW stalks). Either way, they’ve been in therapy for over a decade so therapy is well covered. I’m not sure it helps, but they’ve been in therapy for ages.”
MW – I also assumed eldest was a girl because I’ve noticed a pattern, with Chumps I know personally, where sons will be more attuned to the fuckwittery, whereas daughters are much more willing to forgive and engage with FW. This may or may not be your case. But it brings up something I’ve heard Dr. Ramani say: A narcissistic parent will have terrible relations with their same sex child (i.e. narc fathers against their sons, narc mothers against their daughters). So I wonder if you can see clearly a similar pattern with your children, regardless of their sex. Without revealing the sexes of the children (as you’ve chosen to not do), did FW treat one better than the other since their childhoods? I think this factor could explain the different reactions that your children have to FW.
Yes, FW definitely favored one over the other, the one that this post is about. I don’t know that it’s super clear to either of the children (it has never been brought up to me by either one) but I definitely noticed it, and called FW out about it over the years. They are both the same gender BTW. But FW clearly had a favorite and that’s the one who falls for his shit. The other wrote him off years ago and seems perfectly fine not having him in their life.
That’s been my experience but flipped. But my former husband has heavily favored our son from the beginning. Not normal.
Oh for the love of…
It’s just more Fuckwitian logic designed to draw you back in, express their hurt, etc. And they seem to have pulled your child into it as well (Gods, where does THIS sound familiar?)
No, no it is not manipulation.
If it were manipulation, it would be to gain advantage or force a behavior with malice aforethought.
As others have pointed out, being accused of manipulation is a weapon. It’s DARVO, pure and simple.
We do not maintain no contact with our abusers because it gives us our jollies, to hurt them, or to force them into behaviors that they would not do to begin with. We do not do it to “teach them a lesson” or get the last laugh.
We do it to protect ourselves from them.
Reality is that losing access to us, good, bad, or indifferent, is a natural consequence of their behaviors. They probably should have thought about that.
The real manipulation here is that idiot sending your adult child after you for asserting a boundary (and good on you for keeping it!)
When my fuckwit betrayed me, as I have said before, she annulled each and every promise I ever made to her (save for taking care of the cat-whom I love dearly and will be spoiled rotten through the end of their days). The shorthand-she lost her “Jeff” privileges. You don’t get to keep the good and not the bad. Not how that works in this “real life” thing.
If they didn’t want things to be awkward…probably should have kept their pants on. Or else, you know, learned to actually communicate or take “no” for an answer.
It was OK to betray us but it is not OK for them to hurt because they lost us? Yeah no. Not how that works. But that’s DARVO for you-we’re the bad guys for asserting boundaries-they, being upstanding, moral individuals exposed us all to harm and ruined our realities and being able to trust. Personally, I’m way happier being “the asshole that maintains silence” over “emotional abuser” any day of the week (and twice on Sunday.)
Stay Mighty!
Thank you, Jeff. I needed to read this. My FW dropped a pile of presents off for our kids, our dogs (whom he never liked) and me. He never bought a Xmas gift for either kid before; I always did, and he’s never so much as fed the dogs. I returned mine to his doorstep. The (adult) kids can do what they want with theirs.
Made me feel very low. Not very Christmas spirit-y. And he sent me a text about how painful his Christmas will be, like that’s my fault. Also that the kids are “punishing” him by going no contact.
Remind your child that it isn’t their job to manage your relationship with their father just the same as it is not your job to manage their relationship with their dad.
There isn’t anything manipulative about a clear, direct, honest statement and action.
I definitely have. But Child thinks that they’re helping. Usually what is happening is that FW is trying to solve some problem (that he created!) and is triangulating Child to get them to tell me that FW has answers and if only I’d talk to him everything would be solved. (He’s suing me by the way, that’s what all of this is about). I tell Child that FW can contact me through my lawyer but Child thinks that everything would be fine if I “would just listen to Dad”. Um…no. That motherfucker is SUING me. No. He can talk to my lawyers.
Sometimes, you have to repeat yourself, then shut down the discussion. We don’t control how our messages are received. If oldest isn’t ready to understand, or can’t understand in that moment, there’s nothing else you can do. Repeat your boundary, end the discussion.
I’m sorry, I get that this is waaayyyy easier said than done, and you want to stop their distress over their father.
That’s what I’ve been doing. I hope it works at some point.
I’m concerned he’s recruiting your kid to being his spy in order to bolster his lawsuit!
In light of the lawsuit is it possible that NC can make you “look bad” to arrogant misinformed judges?
As legal strategy is it better for you to Grey rock or agree to minimum contact but only thru a parenting app (record keeping purposes)? Call your attorney!
I’ll definitely mention it to my attorney. But I don’t think that’s what FW is doing. I think he just wants to keep me in his control and he wants me to be accessible to him. There’s no need for a parenting app as our children are adults and I’m NC.
This may sound off the wall, but one option to consider is brokering a deal with your lawyer that if FW drops the legal action and agrees not to resume it then you will see FW *one* time, and one time only, and hear him out. Stipulate that you are not getting back together with him, will resume no contact afterwards and will not be giving in to any of his other demands, but you agree to hear what he has to say and be civil this one time, for a half an hour (or whatever length of time you think best) in a coffee shop or other public place. He can get it all off his chest, then you can leave and go about your business as if it hadn’t even happened.
Then when he inevitably either says no or he agrees but then doesn’t stick to the agreement not to resume legal action when you won’t give him what he wants, it should be obvious to your child once and for all who the problem is. You might even speak to child and ask him/her to agree that if you do this, child will not intercede on FW’s behalf with you again.
It’s a bit of a drastic step. I know, but do you think it might possibly snap your child out of it for good? If not that, then at least you would have secured an agreement that child is not to bring this stuff up with you again.
I’m just spit-balling, trying to think of something that might have an impact and that’s what I came up with. It’s probably a no go for you, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
He’s not going to drop it. He doesn’t care if he ever sees me again. He just wants to control me and abuse me.
Control, abuse, yes. And probably has a new source of narcissistic supply that he’d rather spend “his money” on than paying ye Olde broken down ex wife the alimony that she is owed?
This lawsuit means you need to be legally strategic. Everything needs to be viewed through this lens for now. I agree with the poster about one last meeting if it serves your purposes.
At one point I had to listen FW caterwauling pity party for 3+ hours on the phone and (fake) promise him I’ll get back together with him if he is all alone in old age, just to get the divorce moving along.
I actually think you should explain, but not why you are NC, because you don’t need to go into all that. You don’t need to justify yourself. Explain, however, that your child is actually the one being manipulated if this is a notion s/he got from the FW. Explain that NC is a vitally important personal boundary of yours. Explain that contact is never going to happen no matter what child says or FW says/does. Suggest child just accept your right to choose who is and is not in your life.
This child is an adult so there is no reason you can’t be very clear about this, and you can do that in a kind way. Firmly but lovingly is the way to go. Do not allow child to disrespect you by using FW’s lies about you against you. Shut that shit down, while letting child know that you still love him/her. “Sweetheart, I understand the breakup has been awful for you and I’m sure you’d love to see your father and I being friendly. However, I do need you to know that for me it’s not appropriate or acceptable for you to accuse me of being manipulative for not wanting to have anything to do with your father. Please don’t do that again. I suggest you just accept that isn’t going to happen. Like anyone else, I have the absolute right to choose who is in my life and who is not. I hope I’ve been clear enough that I won’t need to restate any of this, because I don’t intend to repeat myself.”
Then change the subject to something pleasant.
Yes, I have made all these points with Child. And, in the moment, Child will recognize that I’m correct and apologize. They will even see their FW father for the FW he is. But then, later, FW will pull them into new drama and it starts all over again.
Excellent recommendation above. I think it needs to be blunt. Like “your father abused me in multiple ways and I’m not obligated to be friends with my abuser”.
My concern is that adult child is not only being manipulated but is growing up accepting such treatment from others, therefore susceptible to narcs.
Damn, that’s really hard to deal with. It must be driving you crazy. Since FW continues to manipulate your child like this then the only way for your child to get peace of mind is to go low or no contact her/himself. I hope s/he sees the light eventually and realizes this is who FW is and he’s never going to change.
As they say in politics, “If you’re explaining, you’re losing.”
Scuse me a moment, I have to run out and get that tattooed on my forehead.
Have been No contact, low contact with cheater #1 for 38 years. Daughter born during D day asked about a” Family Cruise”so all the “family’ could enjoy the 5 grandkids TOGETHER. This included cheater and OW -wifetress of course. Both kids, older son 42, daughter 38 and GRANDSON age 14…WHY NOT GRANDMA CHUMP,WHY CANT WE ALL GO ON A CRUISE TOGETHER? You could be in a different section of the boat etc etc..kill joy Chump, as dad cheater agreed!!! Still holding a grudge?? Can’t FORGIVE? We can, let’s have fun. Sorry kids and grandson, I’d need a psychiatrist, a therapist, enough meds to stay calm and no contact on the ship Can’t do it, not even in my nightmares. Shut it down and stay shut. NO CONTACT saves lives. Seriously. His😁
Treat yourself to a girls/ladies cruise with friends. Guaranteed to be a more fun relaxing experience
Just the other day I was reading how Maria Shriver Ex wife of Arnold S. Who decided as part of forgiveness, to stay in very close contact with her abusive Ex who fathered a child in her very home with the married housekeeper..now with a look alike son..For the sake of her children. It’s been 13 years of trying to heal ( in her own words) . I can’t help but think how much faster she would have healed without over dosing on the poop filled SS sandwich that cheaters serve up. I’m sure Arnild has found a replacement and ( I truly doubt the housekeeper was Arnold’s only cheat, just the most disrespectful)..so Maria had to smile in person at all Arnold’s replacement for her mattiage of 20 plus 4 kids later with user Arnold.. Chumps suffer so much but taking this “high road” of full contact.. leaving the Chump far more broken and used with a prolonged healing src into forever. Is this good for the children’? Not to mention ongoing Kibbles for Arnold..everyone wants to be with him!!! So Maris writes mournful poems and keeps the Kennedy woman’ silence. It’s a high price to pay.