Is No Contact ‘Manipulative’?
Her adult child told her that OP’s boundary of no contact with her ex (the child’s dad) is “manipulative.” She thinks her ex may be behind that choice of words.
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Hi Chump Lady,
I need a quick dose of your sarcastic wit to help me reconcile with the fact that my oldest (adult) child believes their dad’s bullshit.
This (adult) child very much wants me to break no contact and thinks I’m being “manipulative” because of my no contact rule.
I believe their choice of the word “manipulative” is directly from their dad.
Their dad will often manufacture drama to try to get said child to tell me to call him, text him, etc. When really what FW wants is to further abuse me. He HATES that I’m no contact with him and lies to our child to get them to tell me to contact FW.
This same adult child also truly loves me and will often realize they’ve fallen for their dad’s bullshit and apologize. But it’s breaking my heart that they can’t see my point of view in the moment.
How do I reconcile this?
I know it’s their relationship to navigate. I get that. But what about my part in it? The part where FW manipulates them to get to me? And it works. They fall for it, and then I have to deal with the fallout and, once again, explain my boundaries.
Thanks for everything you do,
MollyWobbles
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Dear MollyWobbles,
You actually don’t have to explain your boundaries. You just need to enforce them.
I totally understand the compulsion to explain, but I promise you that’s the last thing your child wants to hear.
Here’s what an explanation looks like (based on my mail, not because I know the specifics of your ex’s fuckwittery):
Because your father is a FW. Who cheated on me. With 11 sex workers, the neighbor, and Aunt Hilda. Because I still have abnormal Pap smears. Because the financial fallout from the divorce means I’ll never retire before 80 AND he tells everyone it’s my fault his dick wanders.
As they say in politics, “If you’re explaining, you’re losing.”
Your child is well aware of your history. Enough of it any way. By behaving as if there’s something to debate, WHAT IS THE TIPPING POINT?! TWELVE SEX WORKERS?! AT WHAT POINT DOES MY PAIN MATTER TO YOU? HUH? HUH?!! you’re undermining yourself.
Just believe in the justness of your cause.
Is it emotionally healthy for you to chitchat with the guy who gave you Chlamydia? Who wasted the last decade of your life/fertility/retirement savings? If you decided that your sanity matters more than a FW’s impression management, live that. It doesn’t matter if your child or any other spectator of your life agrees or not. You’ve ALREADY explained. If they don’t agree (“What’s 12 sex workers, Mom? He’s grown a lot since then.”) that’s their problem.
This (adult) child very much wants me to break no contact and thinks I’m being “manipulative” because of my no contact rule.
Exactly what sort of outcome are you trying to manipulate here? No contact is a pretty direct message that you do not wish to be contacted. I fail to see the hidden agenda. If you gave your ex the silent treatment because you wanted him to come back and apologize, or you wanted to win the pick me dance? THAT would be manipulative. He just doesn’t like your boundary and (manipulation!) is triangulating your child to be his messenger.
Because your ex manipulates, he assumes you do too.
Again, his warped world view isn’t your problem.
Their dad will often manufacture drama to try to get said child to tell me to call him, text him, etc. When really what FW wants is to further abuse me. He HATES that I’m no contact with him and lies to our child to get them to tell me to contact FW.
Dad’s house is on fire! Call him!
Bummer.
He can’t remember how to operate the garage door opener and really needs your assistance RIGHT THIS MINUTE!
Wow.
Schmoopie got a new tattoo! Of a Phoenix!
Cool. (Delivered in the most bored tone.)
Your child will give up eventually. Just never take the bait.
Is it tragic that your child is being put in this position? Yes. But eventually they’ll stop doing it if it never gets results, or they learn boundaries themselves. Look at what a mighty example you are!
This same adult child also truly loves me and will often realize they’ve fallen for their dad’s bullshit and apologize. But it’s breaking my heart that they can’t see my point of view in the moment.
You don’t really want your child to understand your pain. That’s the Catch 22 of this entire clusterfuck. You’d have to wish unimaginable suffering on your child for them to truly understand chumpdom. And they have their own pain, and their own stupid spackle (I WANT MY MOMMY AND DADDY TO BE FRIENDS! FOR ME!) to work through. They cannot onboard yours.
You share so many other things with your child, don’t let the FW be central. Keep redirecting your energy to your new life and all the things you share. Take an interest in their new life. Keep the FW back in his Chernobyl container of radioactive sludge where he belongs.
I know it’s their relationship to navigate. I get that. But what about my part in it?
You have no part in their relationship. If your ex wants to insert himself in your life, you need to resist the urge to do the same with your child in his. No contact solves this. He’s not your problem any longer. I’m sorry he’s your child’s problem.
The part where FW manipulates them to get to me?
Shut. That. Shit. Down.
And it works.
It won’t work if you never take the bait.
They fall for it, and then I have to deal with the fallout and, once again, explain my boundaries.
We went over this. Don’t explain. Divert. There’s no fallout from Dad the FW. We’re making hot chocolate now and watching our favorite holiday movies. Who brought the matching PJs? Extra marshmallows?
Make new memories. He’s yesterday’s news. Who cares what he’s up to? Not you.
My latest read is Dr Isabelle Morley’s book They’re Not Gaslighting You, addressing the social media fueled trend of increased everyday use, and misuse, of therapy terms and concepts, and how to respond when it happens. A trend I’ve noticed that has been driving me bananas, as someone who learned about these ideas back in the 80’s when I started counseling with a brilliant therapist.
https://apple.news/Ad2qfWRmmR-evAf-Rp8aQHA
Traitor Ex told our daughter that he is the victim of narcissistic abuse. Thankfully, the therapists who have been counseling us for many years were on hand to set the record straight.
Yes, I’ve observed the same. My ex was formally diagnosed with NPD/BPD by a licensed therapist, but everyone and his brother is just sure that half the people they don’t like are that. Mostly, I smile now and say, “That’s rough.”
When I was in the divorce process, I told my attorney, who just nodded. Months in, my attorney apologized for not taking that seriously and told me he had consulted a therapist friend who owed him a favor for more background. Yes, my STBX was legitimately that.
Ironically, there’s someone currently on the outskirts of my life who is also using therapy to weaponize against a friend and me. This woman even tries to divide us by telling us different things. It’s not going to happen. We know better and talk frequently. Games…
Therapy concepts weaponized by a cheater is particularly irksome. You understandably and reasonably end your relationship with someone who intentionally caused catastrophic damage, abuses you, and then YOU are accused of being manipulative? That’s psychological abuse on top of it. I’d have difficulty processing that one too. I’m glad to hear the daughter comes around.
Traitor Ex has jumped on the weaponization-of-therapy-speak bandwagon. He now says “we remember things differently” when confronted with a lie. (This is one from a social-media-prescribed list of responses to narcissists).
I referenced a book and an article on the subject in my initial comment, which is awaiting moderation.
In the meantime, remember to pause, breathe, and consider the source. You can’t control what they say and to whom they say it. Remember, your daughter IS talking to you. That’s the thing to practice focusing on.
♥️
MollyWobbles,
On occasion I have had to explain to people why I am no contact with Ex-Mrs LFTT and, like you, out children are all now adults. I simply state that this boundary is in place to protect me and that if Ex-Mrs LFTT interprets it as a punishment, then that’s a “her problem” not a “me problem.”
Thankfully, my children understand why this is the case.
LFTT
I wish both of my children could understand.
MW,
I suspect that your children do understand, but that they find it easier to push onto you (as the sane parent) than they do to push back against the father. The boundary that they need to set with him (which they will hopefully come to understand in time) is that their father should not try to triangulate them into his attempts to communicate with you.
I hope that it works out and apply the “Cool/Bummer/Wow” approach until it does.
LFTT
Cool. Bummer. Wow.
When I went no contact during the divorce process, my college kids ultimately joined me in that. I came home from an attorney appointment and told them that was what he was recommending. I told them that so if Dad ranted at them, they knew what was up. He was only texting and emailing at that point. They talked it out when I was away and said, “We’re doing it too.”
And they remained there, even post-divorce. When he finally invited them to visit over the holidays four years after he left, they didn’t respond. My ex sent me a ranty email (of course), and I said basically that they had made their decision by not getting back to him.
So that was that. It’s been a few years now since we heard from him. Blessed silence.
I’ve done cool bummer wow until I’m blue in the face. FW has taught this particular child that that is manipulative. I still do it, but it’s really misinterpreted.
No conact is the position most protective of you and your children. I say that because if it works that you respond to him because your child said X thing that FW wanted him to say, then your ex will ramp up his exploitation of your child to see what other kibble he can get.
I like Molly’s statement “These boundaries are in place to protect myself.” Simple and direct, and makes the point that FW wants to hurt you when he violates them.
Yes. I’ve absolutely said that to my kid. I think they understand that pretty well. I think it’s the thing that most snaps them out of the trance FW seems to put them in from time to time.
MollyWobbles, what stands out to me is that you have set a boundary and the fuckwit father is calling it manipulative. Manipulation is sneaky way for somebody to get what they want. A boundary is an express line that you, personally, won’t cross. These freaks constantly accuse people of what they are actually doing.
If your adult child is not aware, you should consider explaining that particular pathology. I think most of us here have been accused of cheating or stealing marital assets. It’s good for young adults to know when anyone accuses them of doing something bad, it may be because that person is the One doing the Bad Thing.
The next time this comes up tell your kid that boundaries are not manipulative. Maybe add that you don’t really care what’s going on with Dad because he is not a part of your life. His drama is not your problem. (Feel free to refer to him as a drama queen.) Your divorce was your formal notice that his problems are no longer your problems.
My ex used to say that he didn’t like drama. It was a lie. He ADORED causing drama as long as he was using it to manipulate others into falling in line with his wishes. Young adults are very aware of drama queens and the problems they cause. If your kid can internalize the fact that their dad is just trying to cause drama. Again. <eye roll> Then she/he will probably have less stress when dealing with Drama Daddy.
Unfortunately my exFW is currently suing me. So his drama is my drama at the moment. He triangulates this particular kid with manufactured bullshit about the case. I have told this child that is for our lawyers to discuss and that I want nothing to do with FW at all. I think he might be getting the point now.
Molly, it’s your boundary and you have every right to hold onto it to protect your peace. If it irritates the FW then that is too bad. A boundary protects you, it is not meant to do anything other than that. Your adult child will eventually get tired of being the middle man. In the meantime if the subject of the FW comes up do as CL says “cool, bummer, wow”’.
You cannot break NC because that only provides FW with kibble and he gets that from other sources now and not you.
My exFW has tried to contact both me and our son. Both of us are completely no contact. The attempts of contact have dramatically decreased since strictly enforcing this (our son will be 31 in a few months).
Hold onto your boundaries because they protect you and are not there to punish or manipulate anyone.
My other adult child is NC with FW and has been for years. I think that is the reason that exFW tries so hard to triangulate my oldest. He’s desperate to get us both back into his life. And the oldest child is the only one left who talks to him anymore.
Perhaps it is helpful to take a breath and calmly ask Oldest a few food for thought questions.
Like “When you say it’s manipulation, can you tell me a bit more about that? What do you think No Contact is manipulating Ex to do?”
“You’ve seen our history and how Ex is. What do you think a non-manipulative method to disengage with him would be?”
“What do you think me staying in touch with him would accomplish?”
“I am sorry to hear that Ex is still trying to put you in the position of being a go-between. You shouldn’t have to do that and I encourage you to tell him no. Ex has my attorney’s contact information. Is there anything I can do to be there for you directly?”
100% I agree this is the way to go, make it a teachable moment and help Oldest recognize manipulation which is a key life skill.
Unfortunately I can see kids outgrowing the ‘cool bummer wow’ deflect to other topic strategy, and eventually all being twisted into Chump not caring about FW friendly efforts, ill health, loneliness in old age whatever BS. I only have to look at former MIL as an example.
I’ve literally said iterations of all of those questions to them. But because, in the moment, they believe their dad’s bullshit, they have answers right back. When their dad is crying (literally) to them on the other line and I’m holding firm, I look like the asshole. “But Dad is so sad!” My response is always cool, bummer, wow. And I hold firm. But in that, I end up looking like the asshole. When really it’s exFW who is using Charm Pity Rage Repeat and kid just doesn’t know it.
I am sorry Molly, this is hard for everyone. Especially in the moment with a crying Ex on the phone and your kids stressed and wanting you to handle him like you have in the past.
I wish I had a magic answer to give you, but I don’t.
Sometimes it’s accepting that your kids may not agree with your choices right now. Maybe never. But that doesn’t mean it’s the wrong choice. Sometimes it may involve looking like an asshole, and making peace with that too. Even normal breakups involve someone upset even if there’s no “wrong”. Your Ex’s feelings aren’t your responsibility, and modeling that with the kids can be hard and feel cruel, but it’s to protect yourself, not to be punitive. It may not be something they fully understand until they see it in their adult lives.
Sometimes you can only say “I know this is hard on all of us. I wish this wasn’t happening and that I didn’t feel I had to do this. I know you don’t agree with this, but also I never want you to be in the middle of what’s happening between Ex and I and I will do all I can from my side not to put that burden on you. We’ll keep talking, and I am here for you even if you’re upset with me or wish I was doing things differently.”
Once it is done and if they’re older, you can consider giving them access to all court transcripts so they can see it themselves if they choose to. You can only give them as much of the truth as you can in a way that also doesn’t force them to take sides. You can’t decide what they do with it, that’s up to them.
Whatever boundaries you can do to avoid these “crying on the phone.” Situations for all of your sakes is best. But sometimes it’s just trudging through a shitty situation as best you can.
I like this idea. A caution to be mindful of keeping the conversation focused on the child and their thoughts, rather than letting it slip into ruminations about what FW is doing, thinking, or hoping to accomplish. I agree with CL that the relationship with the father is something to stay out of but helping a child learn to deal with FWiterry, from their father or anyone, is always something a sane parent wants to do. If you want to avoid a conversation but still send a message, something as simple as “I’m sorry your father has put you into this difficult position, let’s have hot chocolate with the movie?” can be a powerful lesson. That is similar to your last proposed question but does not invite conversation.
Whatever the OP decides, I’m sure it won’t be the last opportunity to try out different approaches. It is so hard to watch your children learn to cope with a FW parent, but learn they must. And the sane parent can be there through it all as a reliable place to land and a shining example of boundaries.
Their dad will often manufacture drama to try to get said child to tell me to call him, text him, etc.
Maybe say something like, “I hear what you’re saying, but your father is not my husband anymore. It’s up to him to handle his own life, and he shouldn’t put you in the position of relaying requests or demands for him.” Or laugh off how ridiculous that is. “It’s ridiculous for him to ask you to ask me. I doubt he forgot how to dial a phone or has trouble texting.” (Unless you changed your number, in which case you can thank your daughter for not giving it to him.)
Maybe your daughter needs to know what she can say to her dad when he tries to triangulate her like this. She may need to know she can tell him, “Please stop putting me in the middle,” or “If you want to contact mom, it’s up to you to contact her directly.”
I don’t know who originated this, but another useful approach is the “DEEP” technique: Do not Defend, Engage, Explain, or Personalize.
Since adult daughter later apologizes, it sounds like he is triggering your daughter by demanding she gets you to contact him. Maybe you could point that out to her, not in the heat of a demand, but at a quiet time. Let her know it’s not fair for him to make HER distressed when they both know you are no contact.
You mentioned she’s the oldest and adult daughter. Maybe you could find a therapist for brief family counseling to have a therapist explain this. If oldest daughter holds firm and there are others, he’ll probably pressure them next.
Congratulations on maintaining your boundaries despite his pressure.
I’ve never heard of DEEP, thank you for that! That is extremely helpful. I should tattoo it on my forehead! I’m a chronic over explainer.
Everyone is assuming my child is a girl, but I never said that. They’re my oldest, yes, but I’ve left gender out on purpose (public site and I know exFW stalks). Either way, they’ve been in therapy for over a decade so therapy is well covered. I’m not sure it helps, but they’ve been in therapy for ages.
It’s unclear to me if chump hid the reason for divorce from the adult child or really downplayed it as one would to a toddler? That would perhaps explain a lot?
Oh no, this kid knows what their dad did. They’re very upset about it. But they also have a pretty close relationship to their dad to this day, despite all of the behavior that caused the divorce. My other adult child no longer speaks to exFW and hasn’t for years.
I can relate to you MollyWobbles, my Cheater Ex misused therapy language and weaponized it against me during separation. I think he still goes around telling others what a monster I am, couched in therapy terms.
It pains me that my adult kids don’t see how Machiavellian and sadistic he can be towards me. Most recently, my own eldest child – the most observant one! – saw something he had written which was blatant and awful and she said “I don’t think he meant to hurt you”.
There’s no point in trying to convince her otherwise. But he ABSOLUTELY meant to hurt me. I am getting closer to no contact, myself for that very reason.
CL and other commenters have given great suggestions. All the best to you as you hold fast to no contact, and navigate these waters with your kids. By holding fast to no contact, you’re protecting them, too.
I felt every word of this. Thank you so much for responding. My ex has turned me into a monster too and it is mind boggling. He is currently suing me to take my house and stop paying me alimony and is blaming me for it! It’s insane. And when he brings my child into it I want to scream. I don’t. But I want to.
Thank you so much Tracy! I guess I just needed confirmation that sticking to my boundaries is the right thing to do. It is really hard in the moment, but I haven’t broken them yet. I’ll keep it up! And I’ll let Kiddo deal with their FW dad and his attempts at triangulation.
I’m dealing with this right now. An adult child who suddenly has weekly contact with Cheaty McLiarface and is now beginning to have the same attitude and use the same language as him when communicating with me. This child does not want to hear the truth from me and has parroted Cheaty’s narrative that we both didn’t want to be divorced. I corrected that lie as gently and succinctly as possible. I also didn’t let the idea stand that there are two sides to every story and the truth lies in the middle. Nope! When it comes to infidelity betrayal the truth lies only on the side of the betrayed. The truth of the betrayer consists of whatever lies they are telling at that time to rationalize their behaviors and and are completely irrelevant.
All I can do is be honest with this child and wait it out.
I feel you. I’m so sorry. That is what I am going through too. It’s incredibly painful.
Abusers can never own that their own negative mental states, chaotic emotions and malignant thoughts and behaviors are all self-generated so will accuse the handiest scapegoat– typically a partner or ex partner though sometimes children, parents, siblings, etc.– of “deliberately” causing these things.
From what I’ve read and seen, I think that externalization of malignant states and thoughts is part of what makes abusers so potentially dangerous– because, in their twisted little brains, they paranoically see victims as evil and deserving punishment, ergo any terrible thing that abusers do to victims would be justified.
Basically the degree of punishment abusers believe victims deserved is directly proportionate to how evil the abuser’s secret thoughts are and how torturous the internal state. So I think this mechanism goes beyond the old adage that “every accusation by a narcissist is confession” but reflects just how frightening their internal states and thoughts really are that they cannot own them and need to externalize them… as in potential thoughts of suicide and/or murder.
Furthermore, I figure that, considering how high rates of post-separation domestic murder are, for every actual OJ or Fotis Dulos there are countless “Walter Mitty” would-be domestic killers who simply heavily fantasize about offing their partners or exes. But, though these impulses may forever remain as ineffectual ruminations for many, it’s really a game of roulette to guess which of them might eventually “muster” and act on these thoughts.
Even if the above evil impulses are never openly expressed, I think victims trapped in proximity to these would-be OJs will sense the potentiality on some lizard brain level.
I’m afraid that might be the real subtext here: that, by remaining in any kind of contact with Molly’s ex-abuser, Molly’s adult child is having their autonomic “risk management” faculty (i.e., ancient lizard brain) bombarded with obtuse but terrifying signals about what dad might be capable of if “push” ever came to “shove.”
In other words, the diplomacy may be a fear-based attempt to keep things from ending up on the six o’clock news. It might explain why the adult child seems to see-saw back and forth between apologizing for playing emissary but then impulsively doing it again.
In a way, it’s possible the diplomacy is being undertaken out of love and loyalty but not for Molly’s ex. It’s to keep Molly safe. In any event, it sounds like Molly’s adult child might need deprogramming therapy to undo the Stockholm syndrome they may have developed as a child “hostage” of a mentally malignant dad whose Chernobyl sludge is still radiating onto Molly’s child.
Of course the irony of Stockholm syndrome/captor bonding is that it only works to inspire mercy from paranoically telepathic captors/abusers to the extent that the victim of it doesn’t recognize that they’re in a captor-bonded state. In fact, if anyone tells them that they’re captor-bonded while they’re in the heavy throes of it, this is perceived as placing the individual or anyone they love in greater danger. In that sense, perhaps an expert in coercive control would know what wires to cut or not cut in order to gradually undo the booby-trapped mental cage that Molly’s adult child may be in.
MollyWobbles,
It is craptastic that ex FW is putting your oldest in the middle as his agent.
You already know who FW is and your oldest child is going to have to get somewhere close to that while maintaining a relationship with him. As their parent you want to alleviate and minimize the damage your ex FW is doing to the child. This is the child’s lesson to learn. If you have to have a conversation with oldest about this explain to the child that they should not be the broker in your and your exes relationship. If your ex has a need they can reach out to you directly (or not).
Hopefully, in the end the eldest will just tell FW — i am not your go between deal with her yourself.