Stupid Things Cheaters Say in Therapy

cheaters in therapy

How many of you sat with cheaters in therapy? On that uncomfortable shrink sofa, ready to lay your relationship bare with the hope that your cheater would have some glimmer of insight.

Today’s Stupid Shit challenge is about therapy and all the stupid therein. Tell CN the most absurd thing your cheater said in marriage counseling. Whatever the most asinine therapy nugget you got and how much you paid for it.

Good therapy

No disrespect meant to the mental health profession — a good therapist is worth their weight in gold. But God knows there are a lot of quacks out there as well. Good therapy shouldn’t give us a pass on our faults, but it recognizes what we control and what we don’t control. It identifies abusive dynamics and personality disorders. Good therapy helps you recognize your agency and power at enforcing boundaries.

Bad therapy

Bad therapy has an agenda. It might be Keep The Marriage Together At All Costs. Or it might be the I’m Okay, You’re Okay School of False Equivalencies. You will know bad therapy by the stupid.

Here’s my cheaters-in-therapy contribution — After the first D-Day, like a good chump, I dragged my cheater to marriage counseling. The cartoon above is a homage to that guy — a bearded, sweater-vested man, possessing all the gravitas of over-cooked pasta.

I described the discovery of cheating, the death threats, the outburst that cheater would like to “piss on the grave” of his ex-wife’s dead baby for speaking to me. Cheater said he considered STD testing “punishment.” And the shrink says NOTHING. A whole litany of horrors and he just nods sagely. At the end of 45 minutes, we get up and he utters one sentence, “You guys need to learn to dialogue.”

Wow. I paid $125/hour for that? Really, it was a lack of dialogue that made my husband cheat on me? Had I just said, “Please don’t have a double life” we could’ve averted this disaster? Clearly a man who is concealing staggering debt, mistress(es), and a love child just needs unconditional love and understanding. Perhaps a hug too. He just didn’t know how to speak to me. Well roll me in flour and call me a biscuit! I didn’t know.

Listen to who they are. Really.

Anyway, dumped that guy after one visit and got Janet the Good Shrink. (There’s a chapter on her in my book.) Cheater Therapy Nugget — “I like being a narcissist.”

Janet yelled: “ARE YOU LISTENING TO THIS? THIS IS WHO HE IS.”

Yep. It was. A guy who likes being a narcissist. And at that, I was set on the path of Trust That They Suck.

Your turn!

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FSTL
FSTL
7 years ago

Great topic…

I think CL’s initial experience of therapy is just the template, which seems to run:

– don’t be critical of the cheater,
– pander to the cheater’s fragile little ego (if you hurt them, they might leave or become defensive), and
– tell them to communicate more.

I think the last point is critical in ANY relationship and would fix a lot of relationships that DON’T INVOLVE CHEATING.

All I wanted from MC was to explain to my X (ie communicate – the irony is delicious) that she needs to stop lying. The MC wouldn’t touch that with a barge pole and it was never dealt with and YEP, she kept on lying.

There’s so much fucked up shit my MC did in the brief time I had with her, but her telling me to have my needs met some other way (I think she suggested mountain climbing !!) whilst at the same time excusing the cheater’s shit behaviour because her needs weren’t met (WTF?) was probably right up there.

MC’s have the hardest job (they have to convince an innocent party to stay with a total shit bag), so I think it’s easy to understand why they come up with so much stupid shit to engage in the verbal gymnastics to do so.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  FSTL

Yeah, mountain climbing. Leave your home and everyone/everything in the hands of a cheating lying narc for days at a time. That makes sense, eh? That therapist sounds like an AP!

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
7 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

“Mountain Climbing” was precisely what my ex said he was doing with his high school buddy. It sounded like good wholesome outdoor fun … and if you drop the wholesome, I suppose it was! Here are some sandwiches and snacks I packed for you dear! Don’t forget to hydrate! (facepalm)

AmIFinallyDone
AmIFinallyDone
7 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

As in Brokeback Mountain. Oh, I know.

Coco
Coco
7 years ago
Reply to  FSTL

My MC suggested the ex and I learn to say I love you without sex! Wtf?? He was having sex with his Craig’s Lust hook ups not me!!!!

FSTL
FSTL
7 years ago
Reply to  FSTL

And let’s not forget the stupid shit I did… still can’t believe I paid for the MC (instead of my cheater) 🙁

AllOutofKibbles
AllOutofKibbles
7 years ago
Reply to  FSTL

Next time I meet someone who is a marriage counselor I may have a difficult time not saying “so your job is to keep an innocent person married to a total shit bag so you can make money?”

I may have respect issues with the whole profession.

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago

Yup! AlloutofKibbles, I agree with you. I think your question sums up the problem with marriage counselors. Gutless, ignorant, greedy, probably divorced or cheating. Just sayin’. Their values are crap, based on what? Facebook? Social Media? What they read on Twitter?

Every profession has research and development, discovery and a code of excellence its practitioners are required to follow. It looks to me like marriage counseling needs to step up, acquire some values, and learn. It needs a more scientific approach to data gathering.

Our licensing procedure needs to require more from these quacks, who got their license from what, a website? These people need to have happy and successful marriages themselves. They need to be quality, moral people, with standards.

Janna
Janna
7 years ago

In defense of therapists (as I am one), I used to think I did a pretty good job of managing both sides of the couple after infidelity. Then my separation happened. There is no book, lesson, teacher that can prepare you for the actual “crazy-making” of the experience. So I apologize for all the therapists who tried (albeit there are some bad therapists), but didn’t truly “Get it”!. So in reality the end of my 35 year marriage is what made me a better therapist. Moral of the story….when i went for my own counselling I had to find one who had been through the experience. You truly have to have walked in those shoes.

dublindrive
dublindrive
7 years ago
Reply to  Janna

Advice when you are married to the therapist that refused couples counseling to find out that the OW was a client? His entire practice was built on lies. Still practicing…
My individual therapist was amazing! It took three sessions with different therapists to find the one who was empathetic and walked in my shoes.

Crazy Lady
Crazy Lady
7 years ago
Reply to  Janna

My therapist has been thru a divorce with a cheater and has experienced the crazy making and lying. Her advice is to keep my anger and my mouth to a minimum (which I have a problem with) to reduce the crazy making. That whether I stay or leave is my choice (hubby doesn’t want a divorce???). But be prepared for whatever I decide is best for me. I don’t know where mentally and physically I would be without her during all this.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  Janna

I think you are spot on. There is no profession where every person is the best at every aspect of it. Therapists are people. One thing I have learned about seeking therapy is to avoid those who list every issue in the book as a specialty. Nobody in the world has thirty focus areas. 🙂

Louisvilleflower
Louisvilleflower
7 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

I think it is important to have a good individual therapist while you are in MC. I would talk to mine about what happened and she helped me see how STBX was trying to manipulate both me and the MC.

brit
brit
7 years ago

I agree, I had a great individual therapist who had been working as a therapist for over 30 years who tried endlessly to explain to me the dynamics of a relationship.
I didn’t want to believe X was abusive and didn’t understand boundaries in a relationship.
My therapist suggested books for me to read on verbal abuse and codependency but I was so stubborn at the time I couldn’t make the connection that it applied to me. My only explanation is I was brainwashed..
I had been programmed by X to accept the blame for everything wrong in our marriage and the world.
My therapist was so relived when the marriage ended and I was distanced from the abuse I so readily accepted as normal.

louisvilleflower
louisvilleflower
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

Exactly. Mine was very patient and supportive, and when I had finally had enough she said “thank god! Now we can do our work!”

coolbreeze
coolbreeze
7 years ago

My cheaters’s first therapist told him that he needed more self esteem and that he deserved to be happy. Even advised him to go out and “meet people”. Yeah, a porn addict needs permission to go online to try to find people that will help him to be ‘happy’. He even told him that because I refused to get over things, my husband might need to dump me to find his true happiness. It appeared that I was the problem since I was so distraught over the fact that my husband had spent a few thousand dollars on porn, purchased porn whores birthday presents and other trinkets for private cam sessions, and I was unhappy that my husband had visited a ‘massage parlor’ for a blow job. Yup, it was me – the old nag hag, that was the problem because I wouldn’t let my husband have friends – maybe he should look in some local online meet-up groups so he could find some real life people to hang out with if watching porn wasn’t doing it for him.

If my husband had started out with the good therapist he has now, our marriage might have had more of a chance to survive. He is actually getting some excellent counsel now and I can actually see change, but I think the damage is done from his months with the jerk who told him that the only thing wrong with him was self esteem and he should cut himself more slack and stop feeling guilty for all the stuff he did to me – it was getting in the way of his eternal happiness.

Vastra
Vastra
7 years ago
Reply to  coolbreeze

How I hate that “happiness” and “self-esteem” talk! It is empty crap that does nothing except feed the selfish entitlement and tendency to blame others, that the narc cheaters already have in spades. Mine had the “unhappy for years” story too. Sure, he probably had untreated depression, which is strong in his family, but his choices to be a workaholic with no hobbies who neglected his family & screwed over his few friends was the main cause. And a bimbo gold digger OW wife won’t cure that.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
7 years ago
Reply to  Vastra

Vastra, were we married to the same man? Depressed, strong family history of depression, BPD, narcissism, early onset dementia, osteoarthritis, obesity, general pain, malingering, blaming others. . . .

Gold digger who is 32 is giving up everything for this?

I got his best (first 25 years of his adulthood) years.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  coolbreeze

People often debate about whether porn is cheating. I think anything a person has to sneak around to do that harms me is infidelity. If you sneak around to eat peanut butter alone and you’re breaking your diet? Not cheating. Hiding a box of illegal drugs in my house? Unfaithful. Binge watching Mr. Rogers while I sleep because his innocence and messages are soothing to you and help you get back to sleep? Binge watching porn (or Mr. Rogers, for that matter…) while I sleep because you would rather have sex with your hand while living in fantasyland, then treating me like crap and refusing me sexual intimacy, and spending our food budget on diddling yourself while watching a screen? Unfaithful.

Infidelity that involves sex with other people is particularly damaging because it’s the one sacred thing you share 100% with your partner if you’re monogamous. Still, all of the harmful sneaking and lies count as cheating.

If I know and I stay, that’s my responsibility. If I only stay because I don’t know, that’s on the damned liar.

coolbreeze
coolbreeze
7 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

My husband’s porn use led to cam-to-cam where he had three “live sessions” with a woman who was pleasuring herself while he pleasured himself. He ended up thinking he was really in love with her. Of course, she was an actress that was doing it just to get paid in ‘coins’ and had other sessions waiting after his.

Porn addiction is definitely infidelity because for almost half of porn addicts – it leads to erectile dysfunction that doesn’t clear up until they have gone at least ninety days without viewing porn. The addiction acts the same in them as drug addiction does in others – withdrawals and all!

The craziest thing I have ever experienced is living with someone who loss the ability to have an erection or climax because they jacked off to porn too much – so embarrassing! It took three months of no porn for him to recover from that.

I wouldn’t wish this type of infidelity on anyone!

Beachgirl
Beachgirl
7 years ago
Reply to  coolbreeze

My ex had a wicked porn addiction (would spend all day with it while I worked and when I would go to bed at night). We went to one very smart addiction therapist who told him if he didn’t get it under control it would escalate. Boy was that guy right (my ex stopped going because the guy was out to get him, sigh). Soon porn wasn’t enough, then became web cam hooks ups, then became real life hook ups, then became more violent and disturbing “pleasures” to satisfy him. All of this goi g on while I had no idea , and when I would ask about the lack of sex in our marriage I got screamed at for daring to question him, he was “tired” “distracted” blah blah blah “why did I have to be such a demanding nag”. Porn when hidden in this way is cheating and is dangerous. Run Forest, run!

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago
Reply to  Beachgirl

Beachgirl, what you describe is real, and it is very serious and destructive. We chumps should be very alarmed and raise a cry about porns destructive quality.

I am a teacher. My high school students are addicted to that shit. During lesson, a student will play for the class, on his device, the sound of a woman climaxing.

Students have computers, laptops, cell phones. One student got behind my desk and projected onto the screen a porn video for the whole class to see. He pulled the cords from behind my computer so that I could not quickly discontinue it.

Boys get into a sex coma over the porn. Girls aspire to be call girls, pole dancers. If you are alarmed, you are having an appropriate response to the harm of porn, prostitution and immorality.

blessingindisguise
blessingindisguise
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

For a scary understanding of porn, watch the TedX talk by Gail Dines, “Growing Up in a Pornified Culture.”

AmIFinallyDone
AmIFinallyDone
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Remember when we went to scool and the biggest infraction was being cacaught chewing gum? Kids are on their “devices” all the time, and it’s nearly impossible to make it stop.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
7 years ago
Reply to  Beachgirl

Yes, equivalent to a “gateway” drug. You need more to get your fix, and you decide you need something stronger (real life experiences). X viewed tons of porn before getting with other women and then looking for my replacement.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  coolbreeze

Agreed.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

I wish this engine let me edit my own posts on the smartphone. 🙂 Hopefully you all get that I am AOK with Mr. Rogers for good reasons in my post above. 🙂

Tempest
Tempest
7 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

Mr. Rogers rocks! If cheaters watched Mr. Rogers instead of porn, they might actually learn something.

Tempest
Tempest
7 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

hmm–scrap that; cheaters would misconstrue Mr. R’s lessons on “sharing.”

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

My jaded thought exactly. 😉

Findingpeace
Findingpeace
7 years ago
Reply to  coolbreeze

What is it with this ‘happiness’ thing? My STBX told me he was unhappy (after the fact – now when I confronted him – he said everything was fine and I was insecure) He also told our 13 y.o. daughter he left us because he was ‘unhappy.’

So now she thinks people will lie, cheat, leave you if they are unhappy. Really, that gives an unhappy person the right to treat others like shit – because they are ‘unhappy.’ So shallow and stupid. How do you tell your daughter that?

My husband as was in rehab 15 years ago. I reminded him that they taught him to go volunteer or help others if you are ‘unhappy’ – not ruin other people’s lives and see prostitutes.

It’s been very hard for me to realize I chose a soulless predator for my child’s father.

I took her to counseling. Counselor told us everyone makes mistakes.

Mistake? No. He did not make a mistake. He made conscious decisions every day for years to cheat and eventually walk out on his family. That is not a ‘mistake.’

whodoesthat
whodoesthat
7 years ago
Reply to  Findingpeace

that is exactly the reason my ex fucktard gave our kids – life is too short to be unhappy….QED go and make 4 other people massively unhappy in the process of finding your happy place…. with NO attempt at even trying to fix anything. I dread to think of how ‘daddy has to go and find his happiness’ has been internalised by his 3 nearly adult kids. Please don’t let it be the measure by which they live their lives!!! Of course being happy also means you leave your family penniless and struggling to function while ‘happiness seeker’ has to spend all the money on the OW.

Findingpeace
Findingpeace
7 years ago
Reply to  whodoesthat

Yes, exactly. They don’t care if anyone else is happy.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
7 years ago
Reply to  whodoesthat

Exactly

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
7 years ago
Reply to  Findingpeace

I heard the same “unhappy” lines. During wreackonciliation, the story was that he was happier than he had ever been in his life. Then he went back to unhappy. He gave me the line of I’m unhappy but want to be happy with you and the kids. So, the kids and I walked on eggshells and tried to do things we thought he would like to do. Didn’t matter, still treated us like a nuisance and low on his priority list. Little did I know he was carrying on with a 23 year old girl who worked for him. After I let him know he had to find somewhere else to live, he is suddenly happier than he has been in 25 years (with this young girl).

Just words…used to get us to dance. As CN calls it, part of the mindfuck. Trying to make us feel responsible for their happiness.

They have no clue what it means to be happy. How can they when they are empty shells of humans?

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

X says he’s happier than he’s ever been in his life too. Leaving me was the best decision he’s ever made.
We’ll see how long it lasts.
I accidentally came across a photo of him and his GF while looking at a health food store fb page. They apparently attended a going away party for an elderly associate of the health food store.
In the photo people are looking at the camera with casual smiles, there’s X with this huge smile as if he’s never had a better time in his life. He looked out of place. There was a set of 6 photos of different sections of the dinner party, could he really have been having that great of a time?? I think not, X is trying to prove something to himself and show off his recent teeth whitening. He looks deranged. He’s sporting the whitest of white teeth. It made me laugh then feel nauseous at the same time. His picture should be an example of a Mid-life crisis look that all men should strive to avoid.

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

I forgot to mention, X took it upon himself to call my Mother while she was bedridden, sick with cancer to inform her that leaving me was the best decision he ever made.
Now that I’m distanced from X, I think back and replay the things he’s said and done
I’m ashamed and disgusted that I was reduced to thinking his behavior was normal.
Silence of the lambs comes to mind.
SadShelly, about a year before X made his exit, he said I don’t feel butterflies with you, I looked at him and he says, when I hold your hand I don’t feel butterflies. I said well, we aren’t teenagers in love, he then says I see other couples together and they look like they feel butterflies.., thinking this was strange for hm to talk like this I let the conversation die.
My guess is he had been longing for AP and felt “butterflies” when they were reunited.
Adolescent, young love we feel butterflies not as a 20 year married person.
If you’re looking for butterflies or sparks then spark it up.

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

We’re supposed to grow up and behave like adults not long to have feelings like a 14 year old teenage girl. You’re right we don’t get married have children, build a lifetime of memories the one day stop, feel regret because I will never feel butterflies or sparks or giddy because the guy I like in biology class smiled at me when the bell rang.
Which reminds me of an afternoon with X while waiting in the parking lot for our 14year old son to get out of school. A group of attractive girls my sons age walked up to our son and excitedly started chatting with him. As we were waiting X had a sour look on his face and says, girls that looked like that never talked to me in high school. It was one of those moments similar to a red flag moment that makes you stop and think there’s something off. I think X was jealous and that was the moment when he felt cheated. Cheated of what I’m not sure, teenage romance maybe.

JJ
JJ
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

It’s funny, about a year before my ex walked out, I went through maybe a week of reflection where I thought, “wow, I’m not going to feel that falling-in-love feeling again”. After thinking on it that week, I came to the conclusion that I loved him and he was more valuable than butterflies (I was pregnant with second child at the time, a trailing spouse, and feeling rather trapped in my decisions). Sadly, he came to a different conclusion after presumably feeling similar things, and opted to run away to new and shiny, completely destroying everything.

Finding peace
Finding peace
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

Sad Shelby and Brit – That’s all their pathetic lives go towards – feeling that feeling. Because they are so shallow – they cannot go any deeper. They cannot really love anyone. My current STBX noted in his journal I found that he cannot really love anyone. He doesn’t know how. He just knows how to manipulate and make people do what he wants for his own gratification. And if people don’t comply – he resorts to threats, bullying and intimidation to get his way. And, oh my goodness, the crazy-making he has thrown my way to bully me to accept a measly support payment so he can get out of his marriage with as little consequence as possible – he doesn’t even care if he hurts his daughter. He can’t even see that his threats and insanity hurt his daughter – he can’t even see it. He told me that he saw his mom screw another man and he had to get over it – so his daughter can get over his leaving us.

Heartless? Yep. What about wanting better for your kids? Nope – it’s all about them. He will make a 13 y.o. girl suffer because he had to suffer. It’s sickening.

He was telling our daughter that since I wouldn’t accept his offer of support – he will sell the house and we will have to move. So, because I am such a greedy heartless bitch, by daughter will lose her home.
That’s the narrative he puts on her. (My lawyer wrote letter for him to stop – he did not understand – they have no empathy – it’s all about them winning – about their self-interests – no one else’s) No mention of his greediness of chasing his barely legal coworker and not seeing our daughter for months – because he was MIA with this little girl he was chasing. Our daughter isn’t mature enough to see that. But he will spin it to her that I am the ‘bad person.’
Hang in there.

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

It’s seriously PATHETIC. What ADULT thinks “what if I NEVER feel that way again?!” Who cares?! That’s what you trade for a real life PARTNER for. Life isn’t about LOOKING for excitement in other people. I’m angry he’s destroyed the life we had for NOTHING with a disordered whore. And now I’m supposed to be either alone for the rest of my life or date around?! That was the whole point. I had the person I wanted. I didn’t WANT to search for that feeling. It is NOT a real feeling. It fades away. So stability, a life, comfort, my best friend, the person that GOT me, all of that is worth butterflies because YOU think that other people are “100% HAPPY in their relationship”?!

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

Yes, this is my story EXACTLY. He is free and clear and building a sparkly new life. Screw all our plans, all those memories, and the kids. I cannot believe this makes him happy.

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
7 years ago

He’s not happy. My STBX left and he has done nothing but BITCH non-stop about how NOT happy he is now. But wait! I thought she was your real twu wuv! WTF happened?! She’s NOT your amazing soulmate?! You DIDN’T find the next great thing by texting with the disordered whoremat for a few months?! You guys DON’T have THAT much in common?! ? I’m shocked! Just shocked that this WASN’T a good idea! ?????????

Kar marie
Kar marie
7 years ago
Reply to  Sad Shelby

See shelby some do realize they are fucked up. Asswipe is living his life, working, dating, getting dumped, hes enjoying living single to a degree but hes not happy, not at all cause he has to live with himself now. He has the right to live the rest of his remaining years how he pleases. And now he knows what fucking women over does to him. He is now reaping the rewards of his lies and deceit. Hes attempting to reconnect with his family and when the women find out hes not serious about future marriage or living together they dump him and move to the next bar stool. The original ow is still hoovering trying to get back with him for the fifth time. I learned she didnt. I have to have a little contact with him pertaining to some leftover financial stuff but its minimal. From my end. Hes calling and or texting me every day as in wheres that we are gonna be friends stuff only he wants and grows pissy when i dont answer him. He will get the message eventually and learn to leave me alone. He brought this shit down not me and hes jealous i escaped his life and he didnt. I hear from others karma bus hitting him over and over again! Good! Couldnt happen to a better guy! Shelby you are young still. You got this! We got you!

Finding peace
Finding peace
7 years ago
Reply to  Kar marie

Sad Shelby – well put. Trade in what you worked for for 10 years for a “spark.” I also never looked for a ‘spark’ because we had bills to pay and a teenage daughter to see through school in this tough work environment, a house to maintain, jobs to go to. Yes – how do you throw everything away for that infatuation feeling – the feeling that will fade… but my first husband – that’s what he chased, too.

I married two narcissistic husbands. (I marry my mom who was very abusive – I have deep-seated issues I thought I had resolved, but repeated anyways with husband #2) They cannot love anyone. People are objects to manipulate for their perceived ‘happiness.’ Perceived because it is unattainable to them. I read my first husband’s journal from his time in rehab – He wrote that he was in love with love.

So he chases the feeling, the infatuation and leaves a wake of destruction behind him – because they are so superficial. Interestingly, he self-destructed with his good paying job with movie studios gone and his house gone ….

They have radar that seeks us out. When I met my 2nd husband who seemed to have been through hell and changed…. My body shook – it was the weirdest thing – buy my body was warning me. I was in the same situation.

I have to say, though, that I was thankful I had husband #1 put me through hell, because now with STBX #2 and all of his insanity – Been there done that. I truly believe I am not the basket case I could have been this time around. I know what he’s about. That’s one consolation in this whole mess – because this time I have a child that’s affected by all this mess.

Yes, it’s the good people who get screwed by the assholes. So wrong – but they will pay the price. They are not ‘happy.’ My 2nd husband left for his 22 y.o. coworker, but he also had started drinking. And he kept on trying to make me drinks. He wanted me to drink, too.

If he was so legitimately ‘happy’ he wouldn’t have started drinking. They are certainly disordered. Hang in there. Everyone on CN is smart. You can see it in the concise, articulate posts. My STBX – when he sends texts there are so many spelling errors – our daughter sounds so much more articulate and wise in texts than he does. It’s crazy.

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
7 years ago
Reply to  Kar marie

It’s so sad and pathetic! He wanted to “feel that spark again” how could he live the rest of his life and never feel that again?! Um, because you are an adult fucking human and NOT a 14 yo girl?! Because you have traded in that spark for a real life you worked to build for a decade?! I have NEVER since I got married thought to myself “what if I NEVER feel infatuation ever again in life?! Is this all there is?!” Because the only people that need that shit are teenage girls! All shit gets old! ALL OF IT! I just can’t imagine the feeling of needing that infatuation so much that you throw an entire life away for it! Real long term adult love has nothing to do with that feeling! And the worst part was the whoremat is a train wreck! I know it’s stupid but it feels like if you are going to be betrayed and abandoned it better be for a movie star or a hot rocket scientist or a rich philanthropist or something! Not a disordered mess that isn’t even as good as you are! Makes me so mad when I hear about everyone’s stories that are all the same and that there are SO MANY really good and inspiring and strong, kind people here that just got screwed by an a-hole. So wrong!

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
7 years ago

neverwouldhaveimagined
Does it really matter if he is actually happy or not? Bottom line is that you will never truly know. Cheaters are masters at impression management. They will try to make people see what they want them to see whether that is reality or not. And you can bet that if he isn’t happy, he will not want you to know that. And if he does let you know that, it becomes a tool he uses to get something from you.

Instead of constantly trying to figure it out, just decide that it does not matter. (Note: I am still trying to get there myself).

Doingme
Doingme
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

So true GetMeFree. It took me a while to know the loss was his and not mine. He lost the respect of his children, spending authentic moments together,and knowing the day to day ups and downs of their lives. Without all the props I put in place he’s pretty fucked up with personality changes, depression, and rage.

I now see the discard and erasing a lifetime as the moment of change and growth for me and as the moment he lost the amazing life he chose to leave behind. I liken it to spending his life searching for buried treasure, believing he found it, only to see it was a fools gold. All that sparkle with no substance has to be maddening once they figure it out. Oh, well.

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
7 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

SO TRUE! In one of our most memorable post d-day conversations I had to explain to STBX that he will never BE HAPPY because he isn’t happy with himself. I have TERRIBLE self esteem but I generally LIKE me. I’m a cool, kick ass human being! I’m fun and funny and (before all this dramarama) happy and loving and loyal and giving and kind. I know myself I do love myself. I have issues about my looks/body but I’m teaching myself to accept me, to push the cruel things bullying kids told me about not being good enough out of my head (as dumb as it is that shit pops up whenever I’m feeling insecure about myself). But he said if he had to look in HIMSELF for happiness he would NEVER be happy. For some reason he thinks that people are 100% happy in relationships. I told him it’s all an illusion! NOBODY is 100% happy in a relationship! And if they are it’s because they are lying or they are so early in they are in the infatuation part of the relationship and reality hasn’t set in yet. My aunt and uncle have been married for almost 30 years and my mom asked her how many of those years she was 100% happy and my aunt said ZERO! ZERO years she has been 100% happy! It’s not a bad thing! It’s LIFE! It’s not perfect! And searching endlessly around for the next great thing doesn’t MAKE you happy! I find that concept very sad. I have a small life but a decent one before this we were okay money wise, not desperate for anything with a little bit of savings. A condo and a cat. We can’t afford to have kids because where we live childcare costs $1000 a month. But life was basically good. I made do with what we had and it was happy. It’s scary that someone you love with for so many years can have hidden thoughts and feelings about you and your life and you never even know.

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

I have thought that they’re on a constant search for the elusive perfect partner who will bring them lasting happiness. There’s no such thing as the perfect human being, inevitably they discover the new partner has faults and didn’t meet their expectations of perfection. They’re unforgiving, grudge holders who are never going to know true happiness because they’re not capable.
They’re willing to shatter the lives of their children in pursuit of their selfish desires. It takes a heatless soul to throw away a lifetime of memories. Memories shared as a family are sweeter when shared as a family. It’s impossible for them to be genuinely happy or content. How exhausting it must be to live your life thinking of your next manipulative act, being suspicious, critical, and defensive, and how to spite your next victim, proving you’re superior than everyone. There’s no time to relax while living the life of an imposter.

Kar marie
Kar marie
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

Your comment describes what i couldnt put into words damn near perfect. Asswipe is hugging while looking in the distance for maybe something better. I told him he should try looking in the mirror.

Butterfly94
Butterfly94
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

This exactly!!! I see how he lies to others vs what he is actually like at home!! He creates the illusion that he is great and doing well to others. I only wonder if he believe his own lies?

Capricorn
Capricorn
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

Getmefree
Always love your comments. Love this “Trying to make us feel responsible for their happiness.”
Yes so true and something I still feel responsible for, less than I used to but it’s still there. I feel responsible for keeping him happy. I guess that was two of us then.

But he is very sure that my own happiness is my own business.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
7 years ago
Reply to  Capricorn

Capricorn, I always love your comments. I too got the “you didn’t make me happy” (enough) –NEWS TO ME!!!! He never said a word about being unhappy and sure didn’t at unhappy with frequent great sex with me, loving cards, trips, having a lot of fun together for 25 years.

It makes no sense that a slut he met in an elevator at his office (minimum wage worker, 15 years his junior, living at home with her father) would possible “make” him happy. Especially since his 8 month devalue and discard resulted in losing the relationships he had with three of our four kids. Our one and only son despises him when they were formerly best friends. How can he possibly be happier? I don’t buy it!

The crowning crazy was when in an extreme pick-me dance, I signed a “behavior” contract (he’s a business lawyer) he drafted where I agreed to “always make him happy.” I signed it even though I knew it was absurd. It made no difference. He moved the goalpost and continued seeing the slut and left to be with her “openly”. 2 years later and I can finally say “good riddance.”

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
7 years ago
Reply to  Capricorn

I still struggle with this, too. Part of the reason that I am a chump is that I take on making everyone in my life happy. Hell, I even take it on with strangers. Even when I am in a horrible mood, I still smile at the cashier and tell her to have a good day.

I have inner battles every week when I start to question whether I am being too hard on STBX. I constantly have to remind myself that yes, the things he did and continues to do are really THAT bad.

Capricorn
Capricorn
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

Get me free
We must be the nice twins. Good job we are not actual twins we would blind people with our dazzling smiles (especially bright the worse our mood) and befuddle them with our stunning pleasantness.
Pity the poor passerby who looked like they might be having a bad day, as we would have to whisk them away to be cheered up.

It’s exhausting isn’t it.

At root a fear of not being liked, loved or good enough. Worth working on.

With my STBXH I have the same trouble. Am I being too hard, was three affairs in four years bad? It’s ridiculous. Chump Lady is the only cure.

and what Dixie says….

Longtimechump
Longtimechump
7 years ago
Reply to  Capricorn

Capricorn, I am rolling on the floor!:) you know why? This is what crossed my mind today: maybe 11 years of affairs in a 12 year marriage is not that bad? We lived the first year without any, right?

Arrghh..this is what the cheater keeps repeating. He was faithful the WHOLE FIRST YEAR! Wow! Then after “I screwed up” in our first major fight, he decided to take care of his needs since I was so insensitive.

And the insensitive me, on the new year’s eve today, is thinking…maybe it’s not THAT BAD…maybe we still have a chance…he looks so sad…he is lost…he definitely does not want the divorce but does not know how to say it since he’s been cornered…maybe another chance? As the new year’s present?

I think at this point we do our own mindfucking…just stop. STOP. STOP!

Happy New Year! I decided to pass on the party on the beach tonight. Cheater with the kiddo will go. My son has been trying to convince me and I said I was not in the mood. Then he told me he had a feeling I was going to divorce his dad. Mom, is this true? I said “Look, when we decide, you’ll be the first one to know. But ALWAYS trust your feelings, my son.”

This is my resolution for the next year: trust my feelings. Inner gut. And I wish the same to you. Happy new year. It’s in 5 hours for me here and I will be sleeping in piece.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
7 years ago
Reply to  Capricorn

If I am honest though, a part of the struggle has to do with how others will perceive me. I guess I fear that other people will view my hard boundaries as not being what is best for the kids. I constantly hear (from acquaintances, friends, and family), that kids need their father in their lives. I agree with this if he was normal, but his behavior and thinking is not. Still, I do not want to be seen as the one harming the kids. And truthfully, I do not want to hurt them further. So, I constantly question. But I can’t help feeling that they might be better off without him playing mind games with them too. This sucks.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
7 years ago
Reply to  Capricorn

I don’t question whether what he did to me was bad. I know it was. My trouble comes in when dealing with the kids. He is sooooo very good at saying just the right thing to sound sincere. Does it to the kids, too.

“I love my kids.”
“I want to spend more time with them.”
“I am hurting, too.”

Problem is that his actions don’t line up. He barely sees them a couple hours a week. He doesn’t ask them to do anything on his days off. He doesn’t talk to them about anything deeper than sports news. He plans his time with other people and then sees where he might squeeze in an hour or two with them.

I went no contact except to make arrangements with the kids. So that is where I still struggle. So wish I could go permanently no contact with him…

4merchump
4merchump
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

This is something I struggle with every day. My stbxh is awful to me but only when it’s one on one. Then when I behave in a perfectly reasonable way to someone who is disrespectful I look like a psycho to other people. Visiting this website regularly & rereading the book help me keep perspective. Yes my stbxh has done awful things, continues to treat me badly & I don’t have to be nice to him.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
7 years ago
Reply to  4merchump

I strive to be civil, mostly for the kids’ sake, but that is it.

Crazy Lady
Crazy Lady
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

So doea mine. He ‘s Mr. Wonderful in public but treats me like a piece of shit in private. I know you aren’t suppose to base how you see yourself through someone elses words and eyes. It hurts really bad when you’ve been married longer than you’ve been single- 39 years. I now think all was lies and more lies.

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

I don’t think it is chumpy to want to make someone else happy. I think that is what life is all about. Making someone else happy makes me feel happy myself. We just need to learn to expect the same treatment in return. Reciprocity!! Not bottomless pits!!

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
7 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

I agree. I like to make people happy. It feels good to do something special for loved ones of choosing just the right present. But for me now I am also learning that I need to make ME happy too. It’s not always about what I can do for others but what I can do for myself too. I deserve to be happy! I deserve nice things too. I deserve tasty snacks and nice (enough) clothes and to watch TV that I like. I need to do me just as much as I do for anyone else. For me right now that’s my real takeaway from all of this.

Cori
Cori
7 years ago
Reply to  Findingpeace

We must have married the same narcisstic loser.

Findingpeace
Findingpeace
7 years ago
Reply to  Findingpeace

oops – NOT when I confronted him. He did not tell me he was unhappy when I confronted him while he was still living here. After all, he had to get me to cosign his $80,000 truck first so we could be safe towing our camper. Then he bailed shortly after than and took his 22 y.o. coworker camping in our camper.

geekmom
geekmom
7 years ago
Reply to  Findingpeace

Mine did the same thing; stated in the legal agreement that he needed to buy me out of our camper (the one he wanted soooo badly to sell, the one I scrimped and saved for, the one I kept up with the payments on and paid off on my own) because he had to live in it. (I think he told DD he had to live in the camper too, in addition to lying to his attorney.) Poor, poor Shithead.

Funny, the date of that particular legal request is within a week of the deed recording on the new house he and Senior Slut bought together. Lying fucker.

Only consolation I have is that he originally demanded that the camper be sold outright and I was to ready it for sale. I’d removed everything – pots, pans, dishes, towels, EVERYTHING, except for our double sleeping bag and a whole lot of mouse shit.

Findingpeace
Findingpeace
7 years ago
Reply to  geekmom

Yep. Lots of lies. Glad you left the mouse shit. 🙂

New lady 15
New lady 15
7 years ago
Reply to  Findingpeace

With you on that one. Mine threatened to get police if I didn’t let him take our camper so off he went to fuck AP in the only bed of mine he hadn’t done so in(my bed at home at the cottage and our house in Florida had already been similarly marked by the dog and his slut). Nice!

Findingpeace
Findingpeace
7 years ago
Reply to  New lady 15

I’m sorry. They truely suck.

MightyMamaof2
MightyMamaof2
7 years ago

A week after D Day #2 and gaining agreement to finally goto counseling. PS: it was “stupid” 8 days prior. I share the discovery and all the historical info of a year long (+?) affair, exchanging emails with the AP the week before our first son was born, the extreme gas lighting to the point I was seeing a shrink and on ADs because he had me convinced I was paranoid/imagining this whole thing and my personal favorite – the fact that STBXH kept saying “it happened when we were engaged, not married. That’s different. I’ve learned”

Professor Stupid’s closing remarks: Your homework is to work on forgiving him and his homework is to work on forgiving himself.

I shit you not, I about fell out of my chair. All that for $150. The good news – that was the day I decided reconciliation and counseling was not going to be possible.

Fun fact: the settlement was signed yesterday and everything goes official on the 20th of this month. So looking back, I somewhat appreciate that day as it was very motivating to stop watering the weeds in my life and plant some new flowers.

Thanks for everything chump nation. This site has maintained my mighty in times I was sure I would crumble. Big hugs!

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
7 years ago
Reply to  MightyMamaof2

Congratulations! May your garden flourish! May his turn into that inner-city vacant lot littered with liquor bottles, used condoms and needles, and a pissed on cardboard box over by the fence for him to sleep in. And as an aside, may no children be forced to live anywhere near that scene.

Longtimechump
Longtimechump
7 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

Dixie Chump, this was a great wish for a collective cheater! Used condoms! Yessss!

Merry Meh-hem
Merry Meh-hem
7 years ago
Reply to  MightyMamaof2

I love that image: stop watering the weeds and plant some flowers! I’m a huge flower and garden fan. Pluck those weeds and let the colorful blooms take over. What a mighty statement.

CloserToMeh
CloserToMeh
7 years ago
Reply to  MightyMamaof2

Congratulations on your settlement! You deserve this and more and here’s to a whole new garden of flowers for you!

AllOutofKibbles
AllOutofKibbles
7 years ago
Reply to  MightyMamaof2

Good for you, so glad you have a settlement!

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

LOL!

WhoamInow
WhoamInow
7 years ago

But it’s not a problem for me so it’s her issue, not mine. Only the insurance company knows the true cost but it was soooo not worth it. 🙁

WhoamInow
WhoamInow
7 years ago
Reply to  WhoamInow

Oh – and the therapist agreed with him!!!!!!

Finally Awake
Finally Awake
7 years ago

I don’t have a RIC or MC story but I do have a gripe about the machine that surrounds teen mental illness. My daughter is currently running through this system and it is nightmarish. Each counselor, psychiatrist and social worker has a different speciality, and each seems quite happy to suggest to said daughter that she sounds like she is suffering from that exact speciality on the basis of a ten minute chat. No conversation with her (great) regular therapist, parents or school counselor for corroboration, just telling a confused 15 year led they have the answers to her problems. I’m seriously considering reporting a bunch of them to their respective boards. It’s a complete clusterfuck.

Sicatrose
Sicatrose
7 years ago
Reply to  Finally Awake

I am so sorry you are going through this. I went through a similar nightmare with my stepdaughter from the ages of 13-18. Multiple therapists, psychiatrists, hospitalizations. Most of her therapists were awful. I called it “pat on the back therapy”. EVERYTHING she did was just AOK, her father and I were the bad guys. How dare we expect her to take her meds, go to school, not drink and do drugs and have sex with strangers! Oh, and even cutting herself was an appropriate coping method according to one of these nut jobs, oh I mean therapists. The same one who told her the voices she was hearing (telling her to kill us and our pets ) were just her “subconscious “. Finally, she was admitted to a state psych hospital and from there a residential school. Thank God, she received the help that she so desperately needed. Please keep on fighting for your child. It can get better. Today my stepdaughter is a responsible adult and a wonderful mother to her son.

Other Kat
Other Kat
7 years ago
Reply to  Finally Awake

FA, I went through this hell a number of years ago with my middle son–if you haven’t already, please do a little research on the “troubled teen industry,” which preys on desperate parents whose teens have not been helped via traditional routes. I only mention it because at one point I nearly agreed to pressure from X to ship our son off to one of these so-called wilderness camps, whose marketing campaigns make them look like the answer for kids who haven’t responded to traditional therapeutic approaches.

I admire how mighty you are in advocating for your daughter and recognizing bad therapists when you see them–it took me a long time to wade through those weeds and get a clear perspective. There is so much conflicting information out there it can be challenging and only adds more stress on top of the worry about your child. I didn’t find this too reassuring at the time, but I was surprised by how many people shared stories about their own struggles with now-adult children who came through to the other side just fine, assuring me that if they have a loving foundation, they will eventually find their way. It turned out to be the case with my son and underlines CL’s reminder that raising a happy, healthy child takes just one sane parent–your daughter clearly has both a sane and a loving parent in you. Best of luck to you and big hugs.

Doingme
Doingme
7 years ago
Reply to  Finally Awake

FinallyAwake

What helped my family member was entering a treatment program specifically designed for children where all the professionals collaborated. It was a day program and included the psychiatrist, therapist, and family therapy. It was an amazing experience and they recommended individual therapy when she was discharged.

Chumptitude
Chumptitude
7 years ago
Reply to  Finally Awake

You should report them, teenage years are such a critical time, even though they would look it, teens are most vulnerable to mindfucks by “figures of authority…”

I think few child therapists truly have developed useful knowledge and effectiveness with kids of manipulative disordered people like many of the cheaters we discuss here.

Finding therapists and a support group that know how to help trauma and abuse victims is unfortunately as critical as it is rare.

louisvilleflower
louisvilleflower
7 years ago
Reply to  Finally Awake

The mental health system in general sucks, and the mental health system for children sucks the most.
I have a great team for my kids – 3 therapists (one for each kid) in one practice who collaborate with each other, an amazing pediatric psychiatrist, 2 pediatricians, and school counselors who are on board. If I didn’t have such a great support system with them, or if I thought I could easily replicate it elsewhere, I would move. These people are more co-parents than STBX will ever be and I just can’t do it without them now.
I hope you are able to find a good team and the help you need for your daughter.

newdaydawning
newdaydawning
7 years ago

The religious station I listened to addressed this subject the other day. The conclusion was that if you are dealing with adultery and narcissistic people, the tools you usually use for marriage counseling are useless.

Nyra
Nyra
7 years ago
Reply to  newdaydawning

Good to hear!!

Geode
Geode
7 years ago
Reply to  newdaydawning

My 76 year old mother heard that broadcast. I was surprised but pleased by their message and her wholehearted agreement.

AllOutofKibbles
AllOutofKibbles
7 years ago
Reply to  newdaydawning

Call me shocked that someone said that on the radio, but Bravo!

paula
paula
7 years ago

Here’s the scene-

The therapist’s office.

Cheating ex sitting with his arms crossed defiantly across his chest scowling at me with mixed disgust and contempt.

Me huddled in an uncomfortable chair, desperately feeling like this is my last shot to reclaim this marriage – this marriage that defines every aspect of my life.

Ex launches into the countless ways I compelled him to have a five year affair with a coworker. Therapist nods knowingly and earnestly as the list of my shortcomings goes on and on. Ex also, for good measure, throws in how the affair has given his life meaning.

Therapist turns to me and says “so paula – tell me how this SO CALLED affair has made you feel “. I felt slapped. Had the therapist just called my ex-husband’s duplicitous and malicious infidelity a “so called affair”????

This was long before CL but even in my newly discovered agony I knew that that comment was bullshit. That was the last attempt at marriage counseling.

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
7 years ago
Reply to  paula

Well. I think I would have enjoyed paying for that therapy session because I can promise you I would have stood up and given that therapist and shithead a righteous ear full. Seriously. I might have been a completely anxious emotional mess that evening, but in the heat of the moment OH WHAT WORDS OF TRUTH THEY WOULD HAVE HEARD!!! My behavior would thus “prove” their own belief that I was the problem, I’m sure. But boy would it have felt good. I never paid anyone for the opportunity … I just let ex have it outside on our deck. Yeah, felt good. Fuckers.

paula
paula
7 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

It is heartbreakingly unfortunate that we are so innocent and naïve on D-day. We are tossed into chaos and sorrow and are frantic to fix the unfixable.

Even six months out I would have been better able to respond to the mounds of crap dished out on that fateful marriage counseling day. It is one of those events that is seared in my memory and to this day, I wish I’d have known enough to tell both my husband of 26 years and that therapist to bite me!

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago
Reply to  paula

But Paula, how would we avoid the heartbreaking and naive scene of a D-day? When a girl gets married, would all of us gather around her (give her a shower?) and tell her to prepare now, for infidelity? To make her plan?

paula
paula
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Oh great point QM. You’re correct – I look back fondly on that hopeful and utterly devoted bride I was all those years ago.

Although – I have been known to tell brides in my current circle to ALWAYS sock some money away…

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
7 years ago
Reply to  paula

Oh I agree. My comment reflects my views following at least 4 ddays. After my first dday, I barely understood that I’d been chumped. I stuffed that knowledge safely away after one hideous weekend and didn’t deal with it until dday #2 10 years later. Another 10 years until dday #3. Sloooow learner or overly optimistic or something. I didn’t need a MC to feed me bullshit … I was doing it fine all by myself and might still be at it but for those well aimed 2 x 4s from CL and CN. Eternally grateful.

Longtimechump
Longtimechump
7 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

Exactly. We are feeding that shit to ourselves. Thank you for putting it into words, DixieChump.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
7 years ago
Reply to  paula

Your x sounds like a piece of work, too. The affair gave his life meaning? Puh-lease.

MIssDeltaGirl
MIssDeltaGirl
7 years ago
Reply to  paula

Omfg

Thankful
Thankful
7 years ago

Marriage counselling I did not pay for but could not avoid receiving from the unqualified pastor of my then church.

-though you have every right to divorce, it would be preferred, if you do not make any decisions as we (?) have hope for your marriage,
– others have been through far worse than you and have stayed married and are now blessed for sticking it out.
– you need to accept responsibility for your part in this, I can’t say if it is 70/30, 60/40 or even 80/20 but it takes two to make a marriage work.
-he must be inflicted by some form of religious spirit, you only need to look at his father to realise that.
– others have it far worse than you. He is at least redeemable.
– you need to forgive him, even if it is a cold-hearted decision.
– his actions were only physical, not intimate.
– I would counsel you not to say your marriage is over because once he is restored how are you going to save face and take him back if you have already told people it is over.
I asked at what point could I say my marriage was over the pastor responded,
– When I tell you!

I chose to end my marriage and leave the church, finding proper positive therapy.

Thankful
Thankful
7 years ago
Reply to  Thankful

The leadership of the church cheater and I attended, not only felt they had authority over my marriage they also tried to impose authority over me as an individual. Insisting that I not tell anyone about my husbands same sex infidelity, even requesting I put in writing what I was gong to tell my girls in relation to their father and I separating, for approval. When they called cheater back into fellowship after I had not been in church for two Sundays because I was caring for our critically ill child, I knew I had to leave. When I did and began attending another church the pastor took it upon himself to confront the minister that was helping me and demanded he send me back claiming ‘I had issues that only they could help me work through’ which was code for if she is not under our control we can’t force her to stay married. Thankfully I was not sent back and before a year had even passed the same leadership was helping cheater groom another victim.

Twitching
Twitching
7 years ago
Reply to  Thankful

Holy cow what kind of crazy church is that?
As if you could be forced to be sent back?

Thankful
Thankful
7 years ago
Reply to  Twitching

An extremely messed up one.

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
7 years ago
Reply to  Thankful

Drives me nuts to hear of pastors–I am one–who think THEY get to decide what happens in the marriage. THEY aren’t the ones risking their health, 401K, sanity, etc by staying married to these crazy cheaters.

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
7 years ago

I meant I am a pastor, but not like these. It is the faithful spouses’ place to decide when the marriage is over or not. They are the ones who have to deal with the decision’s consequences the most, after all.

DavidB
DavidB
7 years ago

Well I guess, most have good intentions. I do believe that God hates divorce. But we also know he hates adultery! And that is one of the few outs. But I agree, the decision is not for anyone to make but the chump. They can suggest all they want as long as it is not in the wrong way. My pastor told my cheater straight up….. its his decision from this point on.

Twitching
Twitching
7 years ago
Reply to  DavidB

There are most definitely some pastor’s that do NOT have good intentions.

unicornomore
unicornomore
7 years ago
Reply to  Thankful

Major Cheaterpants had (unknown to me) told our Deacon details (in a confidential therapeutic setting) that I didnt learn for years. Deacon told me to worry about myself, not him and pretty much to get out. I didnt listen and stayed.

Tobe
Tobe
7 years ago
Reply to  Thankful

My church was unsupportive as well. Didn’t want me to divorce and they ignore me now that I am divorced. My goal is to look for a new church this year. My ex wouldn’t go to therapy ever but agreed to meet the pastor once to tell him it was over and to get him to explain that to me. The pastor only told him to find Jesus. Pastor never met with me after but had told me you have a rental food and a job. Others have it worse thpugh so we need to focus on helping them. That was a slap. I was in spiritual need.

All the best to you my friend!

Lyn
Lyn
7 years ago
Reply to  Tobe

I’m so fortunate that my pastor was the son of a cheating narc. He was so compassionate and understood the dynamics I was going through more than I did. However, he told me up front that he was not a counselor, but a pastor. He focused more on God’s love for me, that type of thing. He was an important part of my healing, but definitely didn’t do what the counselor did for me. I’m still glad I met with him for a year, though. He was an encourager.

New lady 15
New lady 15
7 years ago

He refused MC(THANK GOD!). Went to his counselor 3x. Didn’t want to fix anythimg really. My good counselor took 4 months to get me to where I could say I was abused and another 3 to get me to believe that him leaving was the best thing he did for me. Love her!

Margo
Margo
7 years ago
Reply to  New lady 15

Same with me NewLady15. Mine refused to go to MC, so I went by myself believing I could fix the marriage. What an eye opener. After reading the Verbally Abusive Relationship after the first session, I was well on my way to discovering that I was being verbally, emotionally and mentally abused. So not only was I dealing with those issues, I was also dealing with a narcissist and all the other things that brings to the table – including an affair. I filed for divorce 6 years ago this month. Its been six years of complete and utter bullshit co parenting with him. Next week, in fact a week from today, we will face each other in court. I’m hoping at that point it will be done. I’ve been extremely lucky that my counselor was such a godsend. I’m hoping the meh is around the corner lurking on a Tuesday in the near future. 🙂

AllOutofKibbles
AllOutofKibbles
7 years ago
Reply to  New lady 15

I don’t know her and I love her for that

New lady 15
New lady 15
7 years ago

I lucked out Alloutofkibbles?

AllOutofKibbles
AllOutofKibbles
7 years ago

“You need help with your anger, that’s an issue, it’s not productive.”

It was like I wasn’t supposed to be angry, I was just supposed to magically stop being angry and listen to why Narkles the Clown was so upset with me. Yeah, I never saw that therapist again.
My options were giving up my anger at the years long, who knows how many acts of betrayal or deciding it wasn’t worth the fight.
Thank you Chump Lady and Chump Nation for helping me see clearly that my anger was justified and that he wasn’t worth the fight.
You rock!

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
7 years ago

My therapist told me my anger was normal and also one of the stages of grief. He said I was too kind to x and my new fury was completely understandable. He gave me some suggestions on how to express it positively. Of course, I highly recommend the FUCK thread here! Lol

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
7 years ago

A therapist using the fully debunked 4 stages of grief is worrisome. sheesh.

AllOutofKibble
AllOutofKibble
7 years ago

For the record, my personal therapist, whom I found after I filed and realized I wanted a different life, told me I needed to get the anger out, to process it and feel it. She also specializes in PTSD and other trauma situations. She fought for me to recover from the time I met her.

MC was chosen by and paid by Narkles the Clown, at least I didn’t spend money for that kind of abuse.

jumper
jumper
7 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

“She fought for me to recover from the time I met her.”

That^^^^

My only experience with IC, any counseling for that matter, and I found a gem. Two and a half years past Dday and I am better than ok, MEH mostly, thanks to her, CL, and CN.

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago

Wow. I should become a therapist. I would say pay attention to your anger. It’s warning you that you are in a bad situation.

nomar
nomar
7 years ago

I got the tired line in MC after D-day 1: “We need to discover what was missing from your marriage that Dumb Girl had to go outside the marriage to find. Then you will know how to fix the marriage.” And–shame on me–I bought it! At least for a few days, until another, ongoing affair came to light. Whatever she was searching for, I couldn’t provide.

Stupid line from cheating ex-wife in counseling: MC told her, “You need to turn to Nomar and tell him the affair is definitely over so he has a safe place to stand while he works on the marriage.” Cheater wife: “I’m here, so you know I’m committed to working on the marriage. But I can’t say for sure the other relationship is over forever because I don’t know how reconciliation will work out and AP is such a wonderful person.” Even the counselor was left speechless by that nugget of inadvertent half-honesty. Counselor told her she needed individual counseling to figure out what she wanted. Cheater never booked IC, despite my repeated urging (“nagging”).

I went through 3 counselors who were harmful nincompoops before I found a keeper. I’d guess those numbers are pretty representative.

Merry Meh-hem
Merry Meh-hem
7 years ago
Reply to  nomar

My cheater did the same – texted his OW as we sat waiting for the therapist (that I had to drag him to, and he agreed only for show). Then he kept refusing to break it off with her or stop contacting all the others before. So glad I got off that Mindfuck merry-go-round.

UXworld
UXworld
7 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Same from KK, Nomar.

After the driveway confrontation incident, she sat in MC’s office crying about how she badly fucked up, how she was going to remove all profiles from OKCupid, Tinder, etc. but wanted to retain friendship with BDSM guy because “he’s the only one who listens to me in a non-judgemental way.” MC was skeptical but sat back and allowed me to give her that bit of leeway — in hindsight, a good thing because it demonstrated perfectly the lengths I would go to to pick-me dance.

Two days later, KK said she just wanted to talk with BDSM guy for a bit, “just to clear my head about the whole thing, it shouldn’t take more than an hour or so” and she ended up coming home close to midnight. That was my first true sledgehammer-to-the-face-moment — and the first steps toward ending it for good.

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago
Reply to  nomar

I think we went to a dozen nitwits (nincompoops) and only one saw his bullshit and also earned his trust, and my trust. But James Bond blew up our “marriage” with a rage.

I have cleaned everything pertaining to our marriage out of the house: my wedding dress, trousseau, jewelry, lingerie, wedding ring, wedding photo, all gone. And I feel much happier.

nomar
nomar
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Yes! Going NC includes going NC with the stuff of the bad marriage as much as possible. All but one counselor did less for me than I did for myself when I changed the locks and put brand new sheets on the bed.

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
7 years ago

Well after the 2nd dday, (only 1 more dday to go!) we did see a therapist.

This was the conversation amongst us 3:

Me to therapist: “I don’t want to divorce, but she has done so much wrong. I think there is something clinically wrong with her.”

Therapist now glances over to whorrie….

Whorrie to therapist: “I don’t understand why things have to be so permanent?”

Therapist to me: “Rob, maybe you should answer this to whorrie.”

Me to whorrie: “I just caught you cheating with my friend – you also admitted to fucking my sis’s husband – you opened credit cards under my Moms name – you have been caught by JC Penny security for stealing while my little daughter was with you – you go and pick up your weekly cocaine while kids are in the min-van with you. You have a serious personality disorder!!”

Therapist to me: “Rob are you always this critical of whorrie?”

Me to therapist: “Huh” – long pause……… “This is not going to fucking work!”

So I marched out and threw $50.00 on the lap of whorrie.

Costed me $200.00 total. ($150 for the session and $50.00 for cab fare for whorrie).

I then marched the fuck out.

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
7 years ago

I know it is not at all funny … but your delivery of that story is priceless! It also sounds like money well spent for what it revealed about her and the wisdom of counseling. I think I like it when you’re “critical” honey!!

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
7 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

Hehehe Dixie – actually it is funny – now of course. I can now laugh at all the stupid-shit whorrie said and did at or around all the multiple ddays. She is without doubt the biggest twat in the universe. Gosh I feel a poem coming. 🙂

Have I ever told you the story about when she wanted to carry her brothers baby about 3 months after the final dday? No Joke.

This twat’s common sense is equivalent to a shoe box.

Tempest
Tempest
7 years ago

Yeah, ‘cuz fetal development is soooooo helped by in utero cocaine. [face on desk]

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
7 years ago

Oh my. So many issues there …

Roaring
Roaring
7 years ago

Surechumpedalot, are you kidding me? WTF?

All these stories today are mind boggling.

I had three sessions with a Gottman-trained MC. He was the husband of our minister (who I now believe x was blowing). I was distraught at the time but even so, I recognized how out-of-touch MC was. He chastised me for expressing “contempt for x” while praising x for finding love with (and trying to purchase) a fifteen-year-old sex-trafficked Filipina webcam whore.

He also refused to address the fact that x spent all of our savings on prostitutes and porn, stole $10k from my mother, and was advertising himself on Craigslist.

Those details weren’t “relevant” because I wasn’t “owning up to my part.”

MC and his minister husband pride themselves on being fully open about their promiscuity and the Religious Science church (which I no longer value AT ALL) views “judgement” as the worst evil of all.

PS The Gottman method seems to emphasize that both partners are responsible for the demise of the marriage. I can’t understand how they think infidelity (and its secrecy) is equivalent to other stressors on a relationship.

False equivalency hurts Chumps because we are all too ready to accept responsibility anyway.

Tempest
Tempest
7 years ago
Reply to  Roaring

To be fair, I don’t think Gottman himself would have agreed with that therapist’s approach. He does think infidelity is a major problem in a marriage, and Gottman criticized Esther Perel for re-victimizing a chump when Perel told her “can you delight in your husband’s thrill at his sexual prowess?”

Where Gottman goes wrong, IMHO, is emphasizing that there are over 20 warning signs in a marriage that may “lead” a person to cheat. He assumes that (a) those same things, like decreased communication, happen in most marriages but only those with entitlement issues then cheat, and (b) he takes a cheater’s word for when an affair started; as we all know, those 20+ warning signs may actually be due to a cheater already having started an affair for which they haven’t been caught.

More later–I’m researching Gottman to find out exactly what he does think, to make sure I only criticize him accurately.

Roaring
Roaring
7 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Thanks, Tempest.

MC, in my case, is a milquetoast doing a pick-me-dance for his narc husband, the minister who gave his seal of approval (and blowjob of approval) to x.

The whole situation was not good for me.

I found a Gottman-trained IC, though, who is amazing. Her approach and style are so different as to make me believe original MC is just not very good.

Other Kat
Other Kat
7 years ago
Reply to  Roaring

One of the therapists we saw told us to review Gottman’s 20 signs. At the time I knew I had to divorce X but was looking for a way to ease him into it (clearly not having found CN yet). I thought, ok, here’s my ticket, we have all 20 signs and then some!

When I pointed this out X said, “Well perhaps one could say that our marriage exhibits these signs now, but once we start working on the marriage, things will change.” This after years of MC with multiple therapists . . . at least this one had the good sense to say, “That’s not how it works. By the time a marriage reaches this stage it’s over.”

Of course X still couldn’t hear what she said and I ended up having to rip off the bandaid and endure the three channels of mindfuckery–I only wish I’d known sooner that I was going to have to deal with them one way or the other.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
7 years ago

Oh Sure, you’re so critical. Why couldn’t you just accept her whoring and look the other way when it came to her illegal activity? I mean, really, you’re so judgmental. What’s the big deal? It’s just cocaine and a brother in law. Geez. (sarcastic eye roll and tsk)

Longtimechump
Longtimechump
7 years ago

That’s right. She kept it in the family, SurrChumped. You should have been considerate of that. What is with chumps and nagging!

Tempest
Tempest
7 years ago

This is all I got after that story, SCaL:

the Scream

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
7 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Hehehehe, 🙂 Holy shit Tempest, that’s me!!!!! But I do have a lot more hair. 🙂

UXworld
UXworld
7 years ago

AS if I didn’t have enough respect for you already, SCAL. Outstanding.

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago

LOL !!!

Well done Rob !!

Nice not being bamboozled by the “therapy” !!

Critical?! He’s not being critical, idiot. He is simply telling you what happened. Probably each of us chumps would be better counselors / therapists for cheating marriages than what is out there.

The first thing these marriage counselors need to do is refuse to tolerate lying. The second is to tell the cheater that the chump is not the reason why he cheats.

Doingme
Doingme
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Therapists have to abide by a code of ethics. In my professions I have to follow guidelines for treatment which include not providing services unless I have expertise in this area. If in fact I am unable to provide services, I have to make a referral for treatment.

If in fact a therapist, counselor or mental health professional does not have this expertise they have no business making statements like, “Rob are you always this critical of whorrie?” That defies following a code of ethics in my opinion and the therapist should not accept compensation from a client.

When I met my individual therapist I was clear on my goal from the get go, Within the first session a MC should be able to evaluate whether or not the cheater’s ‘dialogue’ matches this goal.

Kar marie
Kar marie
7 years ago

Surechumped. That session sucked but honey you rock! Well played. Bravo!!

Digbert
Digbert
7 years ago

XH used my work health care benefits ( I arranged) to go to counselling after DDay#1 he was apparently ‘cured’ after 3 sessions ??although he mentioned that the therapist told him that ” the affair wasn’t frivolous (or as XH stated ‘meant nothing’) ………it must have meant “something” to him, that comment has always irked me and I can still see my XH smirking at me when he announced it.

He walked out for good 3 mths later……

I then engaged a counsellor via my free work scheme so I could function ( like getting up out of bed and going to work etc.) I stopped going once she started asking about my mother (albeit a narc) never really asked about my XH….and what he had done!!!!!

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  Digbert

The Employee Assistance Program counselors generally have to finish with you in just a few sessions, so they use a formula that will get you through the very worst of a rough patch. Sometimes this means avoiding direct addressing of issues that will take much longer to resolve and going, instead, for how you got in that situation in the first place. They are OK for general issues, like whether something at your job is worth quitting over, but not so much for big questions, in my experience.

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
7 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

My ex went to two sessions with employer’s EAP to address his drug addiction and alcoholism. He told me that the counselor told him it was okay to continue having beers after tennis because it was socially important to him. Either he was lying (ya think? a liar who lies?) or she was pretty useless in her understanding of alcoholism. Clearly two half hour chats with a counselor cannot possibly address a 40 year addiction. But it allowed him to say he did all he needed to do and now it was my turn to improve myself too! Snort.

Magneto
Magneto
7 years ago

This is a great topic, my sessions were like being pulled up in front of the principal. She said “hi”, he started his non stop list of complaints for the past week while I sat there like a chump with detention. I defended myself all session. When I pointed out over and again that “This seems like a “tattle tale” I remember saying on numerous occasions”, she never stopped him. The sessions became “Let’s fix Magneto”, all my internal work was ignored.

One time I remember sitting there like a stooge, very proud of my pick me dance chumptitude. XH newest complaint was name calling. Sometimes in frustration, most times with affection. I remember at that moment I decided to never call him a name, even a petname anymore – to see if he noticed.
Skip 10 months in the future, I proudly mentioned my achievement. I almost bit my tongue off those 10 months but I did it. Counselor addresses husband; “How do you feel about the name calling situation?” Mind you, my big mouth, 10 MONTHS..
his response …..”It’s a little better”.

After same situation talking to 3 counselors it struck me: there WAS no way to get better. That was the day something inside clicked and something else broke.

Seriously, this counselor fell asleep “resting her dry eyes”. Quite a few times during tirades.
She yelled.
I lived through six YEARS of rollercoaster hell with a up/down MLC cheater. Many years of family/IC/MC.

Xh found a yoga instructor who, with a social work degree became his IC.

She green lighted the “Hold onto your balls” type books. Seriously. Hippie chick OK’ed this –

Cliff notes: Give a victim narc a “He man woman haters club” book, tank him up with cuss words and false bravado – point your finger at the “abuser” at wife – who is probably the alpha and holds his shit together – and let him go! WHAT could happen, right?

You know what I know now? A passive narc is usually more than willing to go to counseling, to help get strategies on how to handle YOU. They are the perpetual victim, they are never in the wrong, they deserve pity. We quit MC, both doing IC.
He was not like this always. In the divorce he threw away tens of thousands of dollars. He’d burn 2 bales of his to burn one of mine.

It was amazing that the last few years were really peaceful, we both trudged through that sh@t and still wanted each other.
Then BOOM. At least that time, he moved out and I pick me danced for only a few weeks….

Magneto
Magneto
7 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

Terrible punctuation! ^^^ the social worker/yoga gal “cured” xh of his anger outbursts..
(Since when can they cure anybody?)

lovedandlost
lovedandlost
7 years ago

So a desperate woman and her lying cheating stbx walk into a therapist office for the third session. Therapist asks what is the problem in your marriage. He says, ” she buys whole wheat bread. I hate whole wheat bread.” So she says, “ok no more whole wheat bread.”
Therapist responds, ” my work here is done.”
That was the last session! Even cheater chuckled at that one.

geekmom
geekmom
7 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

My cardinal sin was cooking with onions occasionally. Even onion powder was taboo; he has a pathological loathing of the smell.

Funny – his terrific new place is three acres SURROUNDED by onion fields – smack dab in the middle of the biggest onion-growing area in the country!!

saw
saw
7 years ago
Reply to  geekmom

I think that I know where he lives. Lol! BTW, onions gave mine nightmares. But , if we were out to eat, he could have onions. Apparently, it was the onions I touched caused him nightmares? Too funny!

AmIFinallyDone
AmIFinallyDone
7 years ago
Reply to  saw

Yes! Mine HATE chicken. But always orders it when we go out!

Survivor
Survivor
7 years ago
Reply to  AmIFinallyDone

Mine would always suggest if we ate out that I get his second choice so we could share. No. Then he would suggest another alternative that cost a dollar less. Controlling?

AmIFinallyDone
AmIFinallyDone
7 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I was told by Cheater that I mess up the kitchen too much when I cook.

Therapist leans forward, looks at him and says slowly “Sooo, you want her to cook neater?”

Crickets….
But he was my psychiatrist 1st. When BRD finally spit out, several sessions later (since I wasn’t allowed to reveal) that he was bi, MC was shaken. He commented that other wives in the same situition would be raging at their partners, “What do you mean you don’t know what you want?” He then said he couldn’t help us, and recommended we attend an LGBT support circle. I feared it would just provide my cheater with more dates, and I didn’t go. Neither did he. I continued with IC, until after pouring my heart out one session, because I felt like the world was crashing down on me, my MD said “Well, it sounds like you’re doing great. See you in three months.”

I haven’t been able to bring myself to seek therapy, and I haven’t been able to cry, since.

Survivor
Survivor
7 years ago
Reply to  AmIFinallyDone

Jeez. You need to cry. Watch Terms of Endearment if you must. Hugs to you.

Tempest
Tempest
7 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

What is with cheaters and carbs?

I was criticized heartily for breaking spaghetti into thirds instead of halves when I put it in the pot. Yet another of my “Are you fucking kidding me?” moments.

unicornomore
unicornomore
7 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I was told that OW was superior to me because she eats vegetables for breakfast.

Just so you know, pumpkin pie is my fav vegetable and I just ate toast and sugar for breakfast this morning. That whore can choke on her morning veggies for all I care. (and not that it really matters, but she is no fitter than me)

carmela y
carmela y
7 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

The false equivalencies are like wandering into an alternative, hellish universe:

Chump: You lost our 401K getting blow jobs from trannies under the turnpike!

Cheater: Well, your fettuccine sauce is runny, bitch!!!

saw
saw
7 years ago
Reply to  carmela y

Cheater: ” You don’t try new recipes on company “.
Said in front of the company. So I never tried a new recipe again. Turdhead!

Tempest
Tempest
7 years ago
Reply to  carmela y

Completely agree, Carmela–the false equivalencies are straight out of alternative universe.

What this “food” thread illustrates is that cheaters desire POWER. They will go to any lengths to maintain POWER. Criticism is a way of maintaining power; it says “You are inadequate in ways x, y, and z,” and conscientious people like chumps will try and fix x, y, and z. Then the cheater will find you are also inadequate in ways a, b, and c. This is nothing more than a subtle form of the Pick-Me dance–let’s see what you are willing to change about yourself to keep Fabulous, Wonderful, Cheater-Me.

My X admitted to me that he would critique his former wife’s makeup before they went out, and would make her jump on the scale regularly to see if she had gained weight. He never tried that with me because he knows I would have bludgeoned him with the metal scale. He just found different ways to criticize/control me (like breaking pasta in thirds, or writing too many comments on student papers). Don’t miss that in the slightest.

Longtimechump
Longtimechump
7 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Tempest, this: “What this “food” thread illustrates is that cheaters desire POWER. They will go to any lengths to maintain POWER. Criticism is a way of maintaining power; it says “You are inadequate in ways x, y, and z,” and conscientious people like chumps will try and fix x, y, and z”

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! The cheater religiously insisted on having THREE types of fruits for breakfast, with yoghurt and honey. His work lunch (fresh salad and sandwich) had to be prepared by me in the morning and not the night before. Home shopping and chores were on me. I recall I was 8 months pregnant, just came home carrying about 10 kg of stuff from the market to the 5th floor with no elevator, discovered I had bought only TWO types of fruit (the rest was veggies, how could I forget!), and went back down and to the open market to get the third fruit type for the next morning. He even asked me why I was going out again and did not stop me when I said I had forgotten the third type of fruit (aaaaaaaa!!! How ridiculous can we pick me dance!!!) That was the day he made a huge fight with me insisting that I had to go back to my home country for my baby delivery and stay there for another 6 months and come back when the baby was easier to handle. I recall crying for hours and telling him how I tried to do everything right and as he wanted, to ensure his three fucking fruits for breakfast with double strolls to the market, carrying all that weight on me with no elevator to the 5th floor, doing all the cooking, cleaning and chores so he would not be bothered. And I also worked till my delivery date!

How can you satisfy a bottomless pit soul?

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
7 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Yes, this is like moving the goal posts – all about power. Cheaters are trying to put you in your place.

Survivor
Survivor
7 years ago

The Food Thing was amazing. Fucktard was a sworn vegetarian. I am a carnivore but cooked only vegetarian for 16 years, while Fucktard bought leather shoes and belts and car seats. I wasn’t allowed so much as a packet of sandwich meat in the fridge. That was all about power.

But when push came to more than shove, I called an old family friend, who was his therapist to get his hours for his Ph.D. I’d seen her too, because I wasn’t buying all that he was selling, and he thought she’d help me see the light he was shining. She told me to get out and come over to be safe. She saw the damage he’d done and told me she’d underestimated him. I needed someone better trained to deal with him. I did that, and still loved that woman for doing the right thing. We stayed in touch. I was at her 90th birthday party, which was only for family and best friends. We lost her since, but I’ll love her forever. For anyone who cares, she wrote some books. The best one is “You’re in Charge.” Translated to many languages, it is a helpful book.

I went and got a better IC for my situation. I cannot stress this enough. Even the best trained person can’t always spot a Cluster B. It is SO important not to waste precious dollars on anyone who wants to believe faulting you will help. You need someone acquainted with entitled jerks who are likely NPD assholes.

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
7 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I served tacos once without purchasing cilantro to top them with. This was, apparently, virtually unforgivable.

I think it is just entitlement. How do you justify stiffing the waitperson or walking out on a restaurant bill, why you complain about the food! And how do you justify abusing your spouse or walking out on your responsibilities, why you complain about the food!

After all, weren’t we just there to serve?

Tobe
Tobe
7 years ago

Not funny but made me smile. Good for you. Wishing you a great 2017!

carmela y
carmela y
7 years ago

Drumroll:

On discovering his pathological lying, affairs, stealing, double life, outfitting a rented home with my furniture, STD(s) transmissions:

—We all have a good heart deep down inside, but it might take several layers to see that.—-

I paid nothing, because I got up and walked out. She is lucky I did not go Bruce Banner/Incredible Hulk in her office and tear it down.

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago

The best counseling for a chump is individual therapy with a specialist in abuse. They will help you understand that the disordered do not think like you do. The disordered think what they did was fine, do not feel bad about it. They think you caused it. Lying is okay to cover up their bad behavior because other people just don’t understand.

Counsellors who specialize in abuse know that the disordered have a whole modus operandi, just like chump lady explains, to confuse you, make you crazy.

These counselors will help a chump set goals for crawling up out of that hell. A chump can see progress on a weekly basis.

James Bond would lie to the marriage counselor(s), making me so angry, one said I showed my teeth. James Bond would take control of the session. These types manipulate and seduce the counselors, just like they seduce and manipulate the chump, and cheaters like the challenge of pulling the wool over a professional’s eyes.

One of his best tactics was pulling out his credit card at the end of a session and saying, “I want to pay you now.” Counselor would say, I’ll bill you. “No, I’ll pay you now.” A bribe.

My reading on marriage counseling for cheaters is that an ethical counselor will first call for a sex addiction screening for the cheater.

CloserToMeh
CloserToMeh
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Queen Mother, this is correct. As a trauma therapist I screen for abuse, addiction, or infidelity in both partners. If any of these are present, they both get referred to individual therapists before any whiff of MC is considered. Any ethical therapist with appropriate training recognizes that these conditions **Do.Not.Allow** for safe and productive therapy.

The dearth of ethical counselors is a giant, glaring, spackly issue…clearly my profession needs to practice better birth control and grow more of us who understand what’s really happening and are willing to whack people with the truth.

Shop carefully.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
7 years ago
Reply to  CloserToMeh

Exactly this! Lundy is totally correct, no MC with an abuser. And, if you place an abuser in therapy with someone who doesn’t understand the dynamic the abuser will just be a happier, better adjusted abuser. “Why Does He Do That” really helped me. And I had one brilliant therapist at the women’s shelter, unfortunately she moved after 10 sessions. Took a long time to find any one decent after her.

Survivor
Survivor
7 years ago
Reply to  CloserToMeh

Yes.

brit
brit
7 years ago

Therapist suggested that we have separate visits, third visit we go as couple. My visit with the therapist didn’t quite fill the entire session. I explained that since I confronted X after finding a receipt for porn X rented in X’s hotel room on a recent trip to Reno X had been distant and quick to anger.
I didn’t understand why X had been disinterested in being intimate recently.
When confronted X chuckled, denied everything, (receipt had his signature) I phoned the hotel to confirm his purchase. His denial turned to anger that I had been snooping (I was cleaning his jacket pockets before taking it to the cleaners). X became even more distant. and I didn’t understand why.
X was reluctant but went to his therapy appt., X’s visit went far beyond the hour which I thought was a good sign that he was taking therapy seriously.
Our third appt. together I looked forward to our appt. and working on our marriage.
We walk into his office and sit down, X starts rubbing my back which he has never done before.. weird.
The therapist asked how we were doing, small talk. X keeps rubbing my back and now keeps looking at me (again weird) X says, she’s beautiful, she’s beautiful, isn’t she beautiful.., therapist says yes, she is.
I’m thinking WTF? feeling uncomfortable I smile, and am waiting to change the subject, I glance over and X has tears running down his face, and tells me how much he loves me and how beautiful I am again.
Finally after handing tissues to X, the therapist looks at me and says X loves you Brit, and you’re very lucky to have such a loving and caring husband. huh? I tried explaining that this isn’t him or X’s normal behavior but the therapist ignored me and again told me how fortunate I am.. then about three minutes before our session ended the therapist looks at me and says I need to watch my drinking.
No questions, never asked me if I drank, never considered X was lying, or if I was drinking ask me why.
As we were walking out X and the therapist start talking baseball and then flying (X is a pilot),
X and I get inside the car and X bursts out laughing, then says we have no reason to go back.
He was still laughing when we got home, he thought it was hysterical. He says, I told you that being a therapist is a bullshit job.

Other Kat
Other Kat
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

Lord, what is it with narcs and drinking? We were in the middle of a session when X interrupted me and said that he could no longer be quiet about it and that we couldn’t move forward until we addressed my drinking problem. When the therapist asked me about it and I said I didn’t know what he was talking about, X said, “When we were on vacation this summer, you polished off an entire bottle of tequila in under 24 hours. You couldn’t even be around your own family without having alcohol in your system 24/7.”

Try defending yourself against that, especially with an incompetent therapist who bought his “I’m a saint, she’s crazy” schtick hook, line, and sinker. I’ve read so many similar stories here and have a friend IRL whose X convinced their adult children that she had a drinking problem and then tried to have her hospitalized for it. I suppose as with most tools in their toolkit, it’s easy enough to pull off because unless you’ve been a lifelong teetotaler (and even then), how could you prove you’re not a secret drunk?

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  Other Kat

OtherKat, X had the Saint act down, he’s the (victim) Saint married to me, the unstable wife.
You can sense that the therapists are enamored with the “Saint” and patronize us.
Frustrating..,

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  Other Kat

Marriage counseling in their mind isn’t to solve issues, they’re on the defensive and they will stoop to any level to divert attention from themselves and make themselves out to be the winner. When I first suggested going to counseling with X he refused. He would say, he was saving me because if we went to counseling the counselor would ask him why he married me, that I was crazy and have me put in an institution.
Another therapist we went to did the same separate then together sessions. We were sitting in his office and the therapist began asking me about my drinking, one of his questions was did I drink more around the holidays, I answered with no, I don’t drink much if at all during the holidays especially since I’m so busy during that time. There were a few other drinking questions directed at me. I’m so naive at the time I didn’t realize X had said I had a drinking problem. During the questioning X sat there with a sad face making himself appear to be the victim.
You’re defenseless when faced with false accusations of being an alcoholic. No matter what you say they have something to counter no matter who you respond.

A couple months after X left I had a fender bender in the high school parking lot. I backed into a chain link fence. I didn’t find out until a few months afterwards that X had told everyone I was driving drunk at three in the afternoon. (Fortunately I have the police report). This is a small community so I imagine that most people have heard that’s I was driving drunk on school property as their kids were getting out of school.

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

I apologize for the typos and repeat sentence. No, I’m not drinking.. ha! crazy.
One of the things I like to say is if I were an alcoholic I’d definitely be one now after all the shit I’ve been through.

carmela y
carmela y
7 years ago
Reply to  Other Kat

It’s like asking someone: When did you stop beating your wife? A rigged question to make you the loser. When you defend yourself, you sound hysterical. If you don’t, you are letting that accusation stand. Even if you respond calmly, they can say: See? She has these lies down pat.

That is the lowest of blows, it is repulsive and cunning, and it is a wonderful validation that you got away from a complete and utter piece of human feces.

KathleenK
KathleenK
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

Brit – Your story made me feel sick to my stomach. I am so glad you are not with this sociopath anymore.

Lyn
Lyn
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

Wow, brit. What an actor your ex was!

I can remember once my ex telling me he’d discovered how to get the people who worked for him to do anything he wanted. When I asked, “What’s that?” he said, “I just have to act like I care.” That’s their MO.

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

True, he was an actor, looking back (of course) I realize just how much of an actor he was.
Scary knowing I’ve been married to an imposter for 20 years.
I believe he was acting during our entire relationship.
The last time we went to counseling he was especially reluctant, he said lets take separate cars and that he’d follow me. He knew where the office was but I agreed. While I was driving I’d look back in my rear view mirror and notice he was driving slow then turned off. I made it to the appt and he arrived about 25 minutes late. The counselor mentioned our marriage, X got up and said what?
marriage counseling?? she lied to me, she told me this was in regards to our son!
Then he looked over at me and said our marriage is over. When I think of these moments and retell these stories I’m repulsed by him. Disgusting, pure evil.

whodoesthat
whodoesthat
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

omg this is so close to what happened to me….out of the blue my NPD by way of a PHONE call said we should go to marriage counselling…. fully out of the blue and in the 3 weeks it took to get the appointment he had managed to freak me out so much he engineered an argument where he declared the marriage was over and the next day when the appointment was due I sat there in shock while he calmly said to the MC we are here to talk about how best to tell the children… WTF?? to his credit the guy asked straight out if he was having an affair – ex fucktard lied of course and claimed ‘it was the furtherest thing from his mind’ – read the opposite. In fact with cheaters it is pretty much the script to reverse the meaning of everything they say.
In regards to spending 2 decades ‘acting’ being a normal spouse the creepiest thing my ex said to me one random time years before d day when we were sitting watching TV he turned and said ‘I’m not who you think I am”… my blood runs cold remembering that now, but at the time I just thought ‘what – thats a weird thing to say’. As someone keeps repeating here – when someone shows you who they are believe them the first time.
I do not believe most psych services are geared up to relate to someone who is as manipulative as NPD’s the image takes care of 99% of the judgement and the chump makes sure she appears completely deranged due to the years of mental abuse. Plays into their hands. 2017 here i come!

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  brit

This is chilling. Almost like check-the-basement-for-missing-children chilling. I am very happy to hear this person is your ex!

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
7 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

Yikes. Agree with Ami that I’m thankful for YOU he is your ex now.

Mine did the same thing about the drinking. He tried to make me out to be an alcoholic during a deposition, but I was successful in quickly and effectively shutting that shit down with just a few irrefutable facts from receipts, bank statements, job stability and unsolicited, written testimony from friends and colleagues.

He tried to make me out to be an irresponsible woman, but only succeeded in pissing off his attorney for lying during a deposition, which my attorney pointed out was illegal.

Still, to realize he was willing to stoop so low as to accuse me of being an alcoholic was chilling. It was at that moment I realized I was not dealing with a sane man.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
7 years ago

Alcoholic exasshole was fond of accusing me of being an alcoholic. Of course he also set me up for a DV charge. He too was very good at fooling therapists. They suck.

Survivor
Survivor
7 years ago

My ex deposed my employers asking such nice questions as “How many of the partners has Survivor been sleeping with?” The answer was none, but none of them could speak for all of them, so I lost my job because I was too much trouble anymore. That Fucktard was relentless.

brit
brit
7 years ago
Reply to  Survivor

Survivor, they will go to any length to humiliate and devalue. I don’t understand why the family court allows their BS to be addressed. Their intentions are obvious,

X’s attorney accused me of choosing a questionable lifestyle because isn’t it true I had different cars parked in my driveway overnight? My Switzerland neighbors apparently were giving X updates on cars parked in my driveway.
My brother spent some time visiting me during the summer, he lives four hours from here and would stay a few days and “nights” when he came to visit and parked in my driveway. My brother’s girlfriend and her daughter came to visit and stayed overnight. Jackass is also relentless and cunning.
I’m sure they lay in bed at night thinking of ways to torment and make our lives more difficult.

ddame23
ddame23
7 years ago

My ex has been in therapy since the day I met him, he was incorrectly diagnosed with depression in college and struggled mightily for years with what turned out to be bi polar depression. Some therapists were really good, some not. After the first D-day, he convinced me to go to a session together at his individual therapist’s office. I found out that therapist had known of his affair the whole time, had actually counseled him during his affair that it was good for him and that “Sometimes, these things need to happen.” I was ripped open and gutted. Later on in our wreconciliation, my ex told me that his therapist had been an other woman in a long term affair and he appreciated her perspective through out his planning and maneuvering throughout his affair with one of his high school students. It sickens me to think that I stayed for 3 more years after that.

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago
Reply to  ddame23

That bitch needs to be brought before a board, for malpractice and unethical conduct. His therapist is a real piece of shit.

CloserToMeh
CloserToMeh
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Yes. Make that complaint.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

This.

ddame23
ddame23
7 years ago
Reply to  ddame23

I just remembered that during the session, the therapist said my ex needed to focus on letting his other woman down gently, because she would be in a fragile state of mind. Nothing was said about taking care of his wife or marriage that I can recall.

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
7 years ago

Well I posted up above a horrible therapist story but the optimist that I am, here is something a good therapist said to me:

Therapist: “Rob, she is an unhappy person.”

Me: “But why? She has everything. She has all my love and all the kids love.”

Therapist: “It doesn’t matter why she is unhappy, she’s just an unhappy person. She looks for happiness in others when she should be looking for happiness within herself.”

Me: “I know! I have told her this! But why does she do this?”

Therapist: “Because that is who she is.”

Silence.

This was a pivotal point for me in recovery to start accepting that my marriage was over. I could never change her.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
7 years ago

This realization was my turning point too. He wanted to put the whole responsibility for his happiness on me and the kids while he was sabotaging it with drinking, gambling, sports, and other woman. It was all our fault he was unhappy and didn’t feel part of the family. Yet, he barely spent any time with us.

It was a no win situation. As long as he prioritized those things ahead of us, he would never be happy with us.

Where and who you spend your time with is what becomes important to you. We weren’t it.

Longtimechump
Longtimechump
7 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

I just want to send this entire message to my cheater. Thank you for putting this into the right words. I won’t do it of course.

Ali
Ali
7 years ago

I remember the therapist, on the topic of my soon to be ex’s bdsm sex addiction, saying, “why don’t you try to think of this as a behavioral compulsion — like gambling.” WTF?? Is that supposed to make it easier to bear????

Tempest
Tempest
7 years ago
Reply to  Ali

By all means think of it as gambling (frankly, they are gambling with their/our health, their children, their family, often their jobs if fuckbuddy is a co-worker), but no one should stay with a gambler either. Run.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  Ali

Another false equivalency — perfect gaslighting. It IS a behavioral compulsion. That fact doesn’t negate how harmful the behavior (and the lies surrounding it) is to you. It doesn’t mean it isn’t a deal breaker. Punching people in the face is to crappy anger management is also a behavioral compulsion. I suppose we are supposed to let people do that to us, too? Yarg.

Ali
Ali
7 years ago

By the way, a much better therapist told me to get out of the relationship — and she told me to read a book called “The Sociopath Next Door.”

thensome
thensome
7 years ago
Reply to  Ali

My cheater’s therapist suggested reading Ester Perel’s book Mating in Captivity. Seriously?! F*ck that therapist was useless. Mine said, “He’s not ready to do the work to repair your marriage”. Both fired.

Patsy
Patsy
7 years ago
Reply to  thensome

But your therapist was telling you the truth Thensome?
Reading between the lines, I am hearing ‘your marriage is over because he is a *****’

You can hear the hints. For instance, I was told ‘never ever diss your children’s father to them, this damages them etc etc’.
The next line was ‘they will eventually see for themselves’.

Reading between the lines, they were telling me he was the problem. But I wasn’t to add to it.

Patsy
Patsy
7 years ago
Reply to  Patsy

PS they did eventually see for themselves

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
7 years ago

Keep The Marriage Together At All Costs MC is the worst. Never go to one of those.

After discovering the STD she told me many couples recover from that.
After discovering he really does not get empathy she told me many of the people who come to her have trouble with that at first. (I have no doubt they learn to fake it)
After discovering that he really had not stopped seeing the OW. He said he was only emailing…she told me I should allow this and tried to broker a deal where he would slowly stop doing that over the next few months. Of course he was seeing her.
At one point in a session Exasshole said “Do you know how amazing it is to be wanted by 2 women?” and she said; “that must make you feel really great but it’s not fair to either of them”.
One nugget, she told him he should be tested for BPD and he told her that was a serious diagnosis she wasn’t qualified to make. When we got to the car he went into a huge rage, scared the crap outta me. When I told her about it she said many couples are able to cope with this…

At the one day MC retreat there was a private workbook for each of us. I read his later. In the section on what made exasshole most angry with me he wrote “when she calls OW a whore”. When I repeated this to him he said I wasn’t respecting his privacy, que rage.

I paid for these sessions…after I got the protective order (I informed her). She sent me an email asking for payment of $275 for a day long retreat thing. I reminded her that her direction to me almost got me killed and gave her exassholes email address, never heard from her again.

LiveForToday
LiveForToday
7 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

This. Save the marriage at all costs MC. Almost lost myself. The rages. The anger. The venom. The it just happens he didn’t mean for it to turn into an affair crap. Really? All the repair work will be on you. Still seeing her. Not making it a requirement that they not work together. Yea I called her a C and a W. he hated that lol. MC had ZERO clue he was a narc. Hey the lack of empathy? Lack or remorse? Nope that’s normal. And I needed to get in line. GAG

QueenMother
QueenMother
7 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

One of our many “marriage therapists” gave stupid “advice” (he has previously assured us that he had the ability to reconcile us), saying that he “didn’t know who was telling the truth, he wasn’t there”. I reduced his pay by 25%. He wrote to me later and asked what he should do about the reduced pay, I told him accept that you did wrong and that is all the pay you will get.

Later, when the divorce is final and I have some head space, I am contacting whatever authority oversees these clown marriage counsellors. Idiots.

Elizabeth Lee
Elizabeth Lee
7 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Your therapist said: he “didn’t know who was telling the truth, he wasn’t there”

My bad marriage counselor said the same thing….so he asked the 5 children to come in and talk to him. After that, he knew that ex was an abusive liar so he asked ex to come in alone for a few sessions. Ex went once and was suddenly too busy for counseling. Even so, the bad counselor never suggested to me that I was living with abuse. I went to him alone for a long time after that.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
7 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Bwah hah!!! Totally!