UBT: Cheaters and Grace

Universal Bullshit Translator
The Universal Bullshit Translator

Chump Lady takes therapist “Tim” (a reformed cheater) to task for his Amazon review of her book, where he chides her for not conferring “grace” on cheaters. Which rather misses the point.

***

Today’s rant goes out to “Tim,” a therapist who left a thoughtful review of my book on Amazon the other day. He gave it 4 stars (out of 5), which was very kind of him. So it’s probably churlish of me to put his review through the Universal Bullshit Translator, but my blogging fingers got itchy when I read his criticism that I “leave no room for grace.”

Chump Nation, hold my beer.

Tim, how can I put this gently? I don’t write for nice, mild-mannered marriage counselors. I don’t write for cheaters — I write for chumps.

Meditate on that for a moment. Okay, maybe 45 moments. Now bill yourself $150.

The whole idea that a chump should “leave room for grace” for cheaters — is not the mission of this site or my book. The tagline is “Leave a cheater, gain a life.” I’m selling exactly what I’m advertising. I don’t review Amazon cookbooks on Texas barbecue and inquire why there aren’t more vegan recipes. Similarly, I wouldn’t come to a book, which brazenly encourages readers to leave cheaters, and wonder why it doesn’t discuss happily reconciled relationships. Or ponder the likelihood of their existence.

Now, maybe grace-for-cheaters is your job as a therapist, but I’m not a therapist, I’m a chump.

 Cheaters’ grace is above my pay grade.

Moreover, the whole meta level idea — that any worthy discussion of infidelity must include a grace-for-cheaters caveat — is offensive.

Tim, consider our radical perspective here — an entire discourse around infidelity (a blog with millions of views and God knows how many book sales) that does NOT revolve around what the cheater wants, needs, or might become. 

What makes chumps chumps is having spent entire relationships being lopsidedly, slavishly devoted to cheaters’ wants, needs, and potential. And now, having been fucked over, we reject cheater centrality — in our lives and in the greater infidelity discourse. Chump Nation is about what the CHUMP wants, needs, and can become (mighty). That distinguishes this place from 99.99999 percent of the rest of the infidelity resources.

Now to UBT further misconceptions from your thoughtful review:

:: Disagreements ::

> You are a “chump” if you focus on hope for your marriage.
From the author: “Asking a marriage counselor if your marriage can be saved is like asking a barber if you need a haircut.”

​Let me first admit that I am in partial agreement with what the author has to say on this point. Too many counseling services and products promise (for a fee) to help a betrayed spouse save their marriage without the cooperation of the betrayer. And when these methods don’t work, the wounded partner is left to shamefully conclude, “I couldn’t get that right, either,” accepting inappropriate blame.

We should probably throw religious leaders into this mix as well. Many well-meaning people are too quick to direct a betrayed spouse into attempts to save their marriage. That is a risk they are not required to make and should not be pressured to do so.

But denying hope for a healed marriage is a shift to the opposite extreme. The book leaves very little room for this consideration. In fact, the author wants to push chumps in the opposite direction. She writes, “I’m not here to help you save your marriage after infidelity. I”m here to help you save your sanity and protect yourself.”

Here’s the truth: there is hope. I’ve seen healing in marriages, the kind of healing that moves a couple back into connection and trust. Yes, it’s hard. Yes, many couples do not experience this. But marriage healing after an affair is not a foolish hope.

The best healing choice for some is to leave their marriage, but that is not only choice for everyone.

Tim, what makes someone a chump is NOT that they hope for their marriage.

(That would make them an ordinary, married person.) What makes someone a chump is that they were PLAYED by a con. They were duped, lied to, had their health risked, were UNKNOWINGLY cheated on.

If that happens to you, and you want to reconcile? That makes you a volunteer, not a chump. Now you know. I might call you a unicorn (because I think your odds are long), but chump just means you were the victim of infidelity. Someone did this to you.

Also Tim, hoping to reconcile your marriage should NEVER be inconsistent with protecting yourself. Hell to the NO. I’m arguing that if a cheater resists you protecting yourself (particularly your finances) or setting boundaries like transparency and STD testing — you’ve got jack shit to work with.

This is not a reconciliation book. So don’t expect it to be one.

But denying hope for a healed marriage is a shift to the opposite extreme. The book leaves very little room for this consideration.

I make logical arguments why reconciliation is a long shot, and that if you do it, do it with protection. Which I find preferable to slouching towards grace toking a hopium pipe.

Reconciliation is a myth.
From the author: “I liken successful reconciliation to a unicorn—a mythical creature that I want to believe in, but that is rarely sighted.”

There are many examples of marriages that somehow managed to avoid divorce after infidelity, but fail to experience a genuine return to intimacy. Online forums are filled with stories of people who tried to fix their relationship yet remain disappointed and frustrated. I can understand the tendency to conclude that reconciliation is little more than an empty dream.

But couples can and do reconcile in ways that are satisfying to both of them. Some of them are open about their stories, while many remain private about this part of their lives. Every decent affair recovery therapist I know can account for many marriages that are strong despite the devastation of an affair.

Reconciliation is not the only outcome, but it is a true one.

Yeah, about those “affair recovery therapists” — got any longitudinal studies on those marriages? Or just the self-reporting of people in affair recovery therapist offices who want to recover from affairs? Or the self-reporting from affair recovery therapists themselves? (“Oh yeah, we’ve got STRONG numbers! Short on the sides and longer on top?”)

Leaves no room for grace.
From the author: “This is what enforcing a boundary looks like—the cheater decides to commit to the marriage then and there—or you put their crap in Hefty bags and throw it on the lawn for the raccoons.”

This book is a great counter to the common tendencies of “chumps” to overlook the severity of the betrayal. Forgiveness and trust can be granted too quickly and easily.

But I want to live in a world that values grace and makes room for it. I know it is empowering to embrace justice and agree that many betrayed spouses SHOULD be taking a much stronger stand for their own well-being, but there is a way to balance grace and justice. I believe we are better people when we do.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that traumatized spouses should just roll over with an “It’s okay, I still love you attitude.” Real grace will still establish real boundaries. Grace is not the same thing as trust. Some cheaters should never be trusted again, but I would still encourage a consideration of grace, not just pure justice.

Well Tim, I want to live in a world where cheaters don’t fuck over vulnerable, trusting partners.

Where men don’t rate sex workers like Amazon purchases, or pregnant chumps don’t discover abnormal pap smears at their pre-natal screenings, where faithful husbands don’t have to paternity check their children, or the middle-aged aren’t abandoned for much younger models, and families aren’t left when the new shiny wears off. Heck, Tim, I’m such a crazy dreamer, I wish child support was enforced!

We don’t live in that world.

What makes you think we didn’t already offer cheaters grace and get kicked in the teeth?

Again and again and again and again? (Four D-Days here, Tim. FOUR. What’s my grace score?)

There is a way to balance grace and justice. Justice is just natural consequences — the relationship ends. Grace is — no one backs up over the cheater with a truck.

What’s grace to you? Wishing cheaters well? We don’t wish our exes ill — we just wish them nothing. And we reject revenge. We reject their centrality. Meh.

You want “grace”? Meh is Really. Fucking. Hard. It’s a goddamn achievement.

Cheaters have one primary motive.
From the author: “Why do people cheat? Because they can. It’s that simple. People cheat because they value their autonomy to engage in affairs more than they value your well-being.”

No motive justifies betrayal, but it’s not accurate to say that every cheater is driven by the same reason. Every cheater is 100% responsible for their choice and its consequences, but understanding an affair means giving attention to the unique vulnerabilities at play.

These vulnerabilities are not reasons or excuses. The unfaithful spouse had a multitude of other choices they could have made, but understanding the various influences at play in a person’s life is necessary for healing, whether or not the marriage survives. Many cheaters did not choose to cheat before, even when there was an opportunity to do so. It’s important to gain insight into the vulnerabilities at play so that appropriate changes can be made and necessary boundaries established. Only then can there be a secure return to trustworthiness.

Yes, at the core of every affair is selfishness, but cheaters do not all pop out of the same mold.

Iit’s NOT MY JOB to ask what drives cheaters.

Is the guy who pistol-whips your face and steals your wallet driven by his desire for cash, or how much he hates your haircut? Does it MATTER? Are you going to preach “grace” to the guy with a shattered nose? Or deliberate over mugger motivations as the victim lays there bleeding? Chump Lady is calling 911. Meditate on grace all you want to, I’m mopping up blood over here.

Dude, there are no “unique vulnerabilities” at play. There are only so many ways to manipulate a person, all of them very well trod. Cheaters say the same stupid, banal shit.

Cheaters don’t change.
From the author: “I believe people cheat because they give themselves permission to cheat—and that’s a matter of character… After suffering my own series of false reconciliations, reading infidelity boards, and running my own blog, I’ve yet to see the grateful, prodigal unicorn.”

I doubt the author would claim that a cheater could never change, but it seems clear that she believes it is so rare that it is a near-fantasy. I wonder if her story has attracted like stories.

Over 20 years ago, I was a cheater. I am not a cheater now. And I know many other former cheaters who have long years of evidence pointing to their trustworthiness.

Some spouses have always been and will always be cheaters. Some spouses cheat once and never cheat again. And some were habitual cheaters who, like addicts, become “sober” in their relationships.

Thank God there is hope for us!

I don’t preach “once a cheater, always a cheater.” However, I do think once a cheater, you’ve put a bullet in that relationship and no one owes you reconciliation. Your character may change (I’m glad it did), but the person you fucked over is still fucked, and shouldn’t be expected to invest in your potential.

I wonder if her story has attracted like stories.

Yeah Tim, millions of like stories. Or as scientists call it — “one hell of a data set.” Oh hey, here’s an actual scientist who did the largest study ever on infidelity that vindicates leave a cheater, gain a life. Psychologists asked over 5,000 women chumps about their relationship break-ups. Turns out the chumps fixed their pickers, learned from the experience, and had better future relationships. They also experienced more personal growth outside their relationships.

Five thousand people? Those are my numbers before noon. I got more chumps here than ever walked through your door or sat on your shrink sofa. Tim, I believe in the grace of self-worth. I see miracles of mightiness here every day. Cheaters are just the catalysts — the grace is all ours.

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JJ
JJ
6 years ago

Epic take-down Chumplady, brava! Standing ovation.

Darkstar
Darkstar
6 years ago
Reply to  JJ

Grace is not backing over cheater with a truck! Awesome comeback CL.

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
6 years ago
Reply to  JJ

I’ll hold your beer any day, CL!

justadad
justadad
6 years ago
Reply to  JJ

“Kill shot. Now finish him!”

seeyalater
seeyalater
6 years ago
Reply to  JJ

A FALL FROM GRACE

Tim is a classic, covert narcissist. His condescending tone in his review is clear and so blah blah blah. Tim don’t be a coward, spill the beans, drop the facade & mask… just say what you really want to say; Perhaps review the movie “Sausage Party” or the book “How Not to be a Wiener.”

As an idiom, “saving grace” refers to a “redeeming quality” that makes a person or a thing acceptable. Hmmm … thinking about “the thing that makes it acceptable, aahh exactly, case closed.

My favorite author Harry Ironside wrote, “Grace is not only undeserved favor, but it is favor shown to the one who has deserved the very opposite”… Tim please review one of his book.

The word grace in the Bible means “unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification” or “God’s benevolence to the undeserving.” Biblically, “saving grace” is the grace of God that saves a person. Aahhh exactly, thank goodness, I am not God.

My favorite author Harry Ironside wrote, “Grace is not only undeserved favor, but it is favor shown to the one who has deserved the very opposite”…review his book please.

Saving my grace for myself and a better person.

Polly
Polly
6 years ago
Reply to  seeyalater

I really want to know what this mans definition of “grace” is and how it’s supposed to be applicable. How does a “graceful” spouse behave in the face of infidelity? It sounds like double speak to me. You’re supposed to have “grace” towards your traitor spouse, but not at the risk of your own safety? In other words, act like you’re beyond the bullshit and be super spouse, but if the betrayer strikes again it’s now partly your responsibility because this time you knew better and chose to stay, aka, you weren’t “safe” enough.

AllOutofKibble
AllOutofKibble
6 years ago
Reply to  Polly

I think “grace” to this guy is just accept the word of the cheater (as many therapists do) that they want to be better, without looking at the actions which show that they are not doing better.

You want Grace?
She’s in room 501 waiting for you for $150 an hour.

That Is Not A Thing
That Is Not A Thing
6 years ago
Reply to  JJ

He brought sad sausage to a data set fight.

AllOutofKibble
AllOutofKibble
6 years ago

I ❤️ This comment

Resa
Resa
6 years ago

That Is Not A Thing BEST comment ever!

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago

love this!

Mighty Mite
Mighty Mite
6 years ago

Hahahaha!!!!! ???

StartofSomethingGood
StartofSomethingGood
6 years ago
Reply to  JJ

Mic drop on this post!!!

My favourite: “Chump Nation, hold my beer.”

Janna
Janna
6 years ago

My Fav….”Cheaters are just the catalysts — the grace is all ours.” Indeed.

UnderConstruction
UnderConstruction
6 years ago
Reply to  Janna

YES.

Mom Of The Good Guys
Mom Of The Good Guys
6 years ago

Haha, yeah! That was an epic “hold my beer” moment! I laughed, too.

Great rebuttal, CL.

Chumpalicious
Chumpalicious
6 years ago

You want your beer back? I’ll have one with you.

Nikki Lynn
Nikki Lynn
6 years ago

LOL. Fuck, we got it . . . Go head on, sister, . . . Preach.

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
6 years ago

Start, yep…loved “Chump Nation, hold my beer!” Hahahahahahaha!

kaycan
kaycan
6 years ago
Reply to  nomoreskankboy

Ha ha! That was meme worthy!

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
6 years ago
Reply to  JJ

Love. Every. Word.

Mandie101
Mandie101
6 years ago

I don’t get it. Why are chumps held by cheaters et AL to such high standard of perfection? The recant is the same no one will love us unless we are perfect. While cheaters are horrid persons who are given a bligh for their human failings but still deserve love. Fcuk that noise.

ChumpedOff
ChumpedOff
6 years ago
Reply to  Mandie101

Much in the same way some simpering parents explain their son’s poor behavior with “Oh, you know, boys will be boys” which also grinds my (_!_) no end and tosses their accountability right out the window! Is it any wonder we now have an entire generation of self-entitled narsisistic pricks who feel they deserve “it all” at the cost to everyone else around them? Grrrr…..

Lucky
Lucky
6 years ago
Reply to  Mandie101

Thank you for stating something I have been feeling for a very long time.
My cheater had a long laundry list of all my offences and shortcomings.

The problem was that I loved him “as is”.
He was looking for justifiable reasons to leave the marriage and pin the blame on chump-y old me.

If I tried to change – the rules would change.

He was a terrible person in many ways, but as Tracy said “I spackled ” over the whole hot mess and took him at face value.

I will no longer try to fix, perceive potential or change a person to suit my needs.

Why can they be such utter pieces of crap and demand perfection from us. No thank you. My give a fuck is broken and it won’t be fixed til Tuesday!

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  Lucky

CL once said that to be codependent is to become addicted to the “potential” in someone else. We keep trying to change them.

Chumpalicious
Chumpalicious
6 years ago
Reply to  Mandie101

I am going to get a tshirt that says “fuck that noise”.

MissDeltaGirl
MissDeltaGirl
6 years ago
Reply to  Chumpalicious

This^^^^^

Nanki Poo
Nanki Poo
6 years ago
Reply to  Mandie101

I felt as though I was constantly getting this vibe, even from therapists. It was as if I was obligated to be saintly simply because they thought I had the capacity for it, and therefore it was incumbent on me to behave that way.

I. Do. Not. Get. It.

At what point are people of higher moral caliber no longer responsible for the shitty actions of assholes? My answer: when we decide that we’re no longer responsible for the shitty actions of assholes, and we can go about our lives channeling our efforts to those we feel actually deserve them.

Ohana
Ohana
6 years ago
Reply to  Nanki Poo

Agree 100% Nanki Poo.

I had a friend say “You will always have to be the bigger person” with regard to post-divorce interactions with x.

Um….why?

No contact was a much better solution.

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  Ohana

“You will always have to be the bigger person”
Can the reconciliation apologists answer this: Why should the chump waste their life being the bigger person next to a loser cheater who needs them to be the bigger person when they could enjoy their life being happy among equally big persons?
I’m now happy to give up the moral high ground for a peaceful life full of respect and free of exploitation.

GoodMazal
GoodMazal
6 years ago
Reply to  kiwichump

Expecting the chump to take the high ground is part of the gaslighting. Ex (I refuse to say “my” he is nothing of mine) actually tried to write into our child custody document that all parties must give the other the benefit of the doubt even if it looks like one party is not following the agreement. I kid you not.

He is a lawyer and tried to fuck me over at every turn. We are not responsible to make them good people, give them grace, the benefit of the doubt, try to understand them, or have anything to do with them.

Our responsibilities are to heal ourselves and figure out how to sniff out and reject those who wave red flags at us in the future. In hindsight, ex treated me miserably from the start (flirting non-stop, leaving me at all social functions to hang out with other women, looking at me shark eyes, lying about wanting to work it out, lying in therapy, lying every minute for five years, making me think I was going crazy, yelling at me when I asked if he was having an affair when he was, being impossible to talk to about finances, never respecting my wishes for my son such as not wheeling him in the street—this is domestic violence, and he a complete asshole–just viscerally revolting). Knowing what I know now, I would not give him a minute of my time.

I was not surprised to find that Tim is a cheater. Only a cheater would demand grace from a violated person. Cheating comes along with overall disrespect and violations. Ex too spoke like Tim. He wrote me a doozy of an email saying its been one year since the divorce and can;t things be more “pleasant.” I ignored him, deleted it. I have nothing to do with him.

Great response Tracy. They speak to disregard chumps’ experiences.

To life, l’chaim!

Whodoesthat
Whodoesthat
6 years ago
Reply to  GoodMazal

Its just so lame …. after fucking me over and leaving us with $200 …. taking me off the health insurance. .. forcing the house into near repossession. …spreading lies about me and turning my remaining friends against me…he wants us to have a united front at daughters graduation. Really???? As if this was just a formality to cooperate over. I think it just helps to maintain that horrific mental map we have to remind ourselves of. These people are NUTS.

Nanki Poo
Nanki Poo
6 years ago
Reply to  GoodMazal

Of course, I’m not advocating being an asshole, but I’m not going to subject myself to more crap just for the sake of it.

Example: I don’t speak to my cheating ex wife except via text and email and in those cases about custody matters only, no exceptions. This presumably drives her nuts, and probably gives her friends some chatter fodder about me being a meanie, but I honestly don’t give a flying fuck about either of those things. Not speaking to her is for my protection as the survivor of her abuse, and anyone who doesn’t get that can get bent. Why? Because their social comfort level isn’t more important than my mental health, that’s why.

Ugh no...
Ugh no...
6 years ago
Reply to  Nanki Poo

Agreed. The Olympic levels of forgiveness and benevolence required from me seemed astounding. While my cheater just looked raw and kept repeating how “human” he was.
I mentioned to the marriage counselor presiding over this bad soap opera that the thing that’s actually impossible to achieve is what’s needed- and unless he had a time machine or a memory wipe it couldn’t genuinely happen.
I feel like the people I know who “forgave” & stayed in their marriage look haunted and beaten down like the crypt keeper. You basically have to conpartmentalilze (not too healthy) what someone did to you and pretend you’re ok. That’s painful and a full time acting job – it must be exhausting to give out all that fake grace

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
6 years ago
Reply to  Ugh no...

Every person I’ve ever met who told me they reconciled with their cheater exhibited the following behaviors:

* They were constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. Lot’s o’ anxiety.
* Had to play marriage police.
* On some sort of anti-depressant or sleeping medication.
* Eventually had to deal with another D-day.

Every. Single. One.

SpecialistInHope
SpecialistInHope
6 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Abso-fricking-lutley! Rumblekitty, you speak the truth. This was my EXACT experience.

QueenBee
QueenBee
6 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Rumble kitty I think that is so true. I also believe that is why so many of the chumps that stay and seem SO happy… are merely trying to convince themselves that they have discovered a Super sparkly unicorn… Unfortunately, that enthusiasm is nothing more than industrial strength spackle. This is why so many here have experienced multiple D Days…leopards don’t change their spots. It matters not if it is a wife or the OW. They are all the same to someone who is very good at playing the lying, manipulation game.

QueenBee
QueenBee
6 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

The first phone call after D Day should be to a lawyer. Posting smiling pictures of you and your husband on social media, making him wear the wedding ring that he stopped wearing years ago, and dragging promises out of him accomplishes nothing. Well, nothing except the erosion of your self respect, your peace, and the gas lighting that will eventually ensue. The sparkly unicorn shares one thing in common with a happy, healthy, loving marriage after repeated infidelity…..merely a mirage.

StaryEye
StaryEye
6 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

I was always waiting for the other shoe but was still shocked when it did. ?

mila
mila
6 years ago
Reply to  StaryEye

Me too, StaryEYe! But after the shock wears off, I concentrate on myself. And it is a good feeling.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

I would also add
* constantly trying to get the cheater to value them

lulutoo
lulutoo
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

I would also add:

*Afraid to make any noise (as in, have needs, express wants, speak about feelings–cheaters OR the chump’s feelings, etc.)

ANC
ANC
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

Yes, because a parasite Appreciates you and your efforts but never Values you as an individual human host.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  ANC

Parasites: they do want to keep their hosts alive (we are no use to most parasites if we are dead), some even make some vitamins for their hosts. But at what a cost….

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  Nanki Poo

Maybe it is similar to the same line “The reward for good work is more work.” We (chumps) do have the greater capacity to hold the relationship together (even if we shouldn’t). The cheaters don’t have a shot in hell of doing it. Therefore, the default is that the responsibility should fall on us.

So, yes, I agree with your statement, Nanki Poo, that we are the ones who have the capacity. Best chance to save a marriage is through the chump.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  Mandie101

Yeah, Mandi, why do CHUMPS have to be the saints??

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Yes and Tim is certainly one sad sausage!

Curious, he claims he was a cheater 20 years ago but now he is not, sort of like I was a runner but now I’m not or I was a Bills fan but now I ‘m not. If that is true, what changed? Was there a consequence maybe? If you change once, do you think you could change again?

We need more one strike and you are out and grace can’t be given unless someone is truly repentant and the surveys on chumps show these cheaters aren’t!

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

I got on this guys’ email chain about six months before I found chump lady. I can’t seem to unsubscribe. So I followed some of the crap he sends out. He wanted his marriage back but his wife said no. He has capitalized on his cheating. In one disgusting move last year he had his children do a podcast about how devastating his conduct was to them. Literally horrifying.

Before I found chump lady and I was reading his website I just kept thinking to myself: “yeah, fucker, this would all be great if my husband felt as you do. But he doesn’t! He wants to fuck his whore! And he thinks it’s all my fault! And he doesn’t value his family at all! And I have tried until I’m blue in the face to talk reason to him!” Tim has no solution for my scenario. I felt like dying when all I had was Tim’s platitudes and his sugar sweet religiousness. I could not make my husband have Tim’s worldview. There was nothing to work with.

Thank God I found chump lady, I woke up, realized that there was nothing to work with, that it was all on X, realized my worth, started the divorce proceedings, got divorced, and am busy building a life. I don’t feel like dying any longer. I have a lot of joy and peace and happiness. Still grieving the 25 years, the trauma, but I’m going to survive this.

It’s been nearly 3 years. My ex is still blaming me -he has never once shown an ounce of remorse. And it goes far beyond me. He’s not even remorseful that his own children tried to kill themselves because of what he did. He’s not remorseful that our children do not have a relationship with him. He just blames and blames and blames and lies and lies and lies

HE SUCKS ASS

lovedandlost
lovedandlost
6 years ago

Ya when he said that he was a cheater once, it explained why the spackled ” some cheaters are really good guys if you’d just give them a chance” bullshit!
No contact is the only way to leave a cheater and gain a life! Richard Grannon is the narcisst expert.

Whodoesthat
Whodoesthat
6 years ago

This is litterally my life . I find solace in the universality of these wankers. Same extreme mental health issues with teen / adult children ….couldnt give a fuck . His new found happiness eclipses all. Not content with fucking me over (in every direction. .emotional…financial. ..social..theres probably more) he sits back while me and the kids are reliant on welfare to make ends meet…and hes on a 6 fig salary !? No shame from him but the dismissal of his own kids? ? Except for the crocodile tears and poor me retorhic you would think he was father of the year trying to reconnect with his kids except for his complete rejection of his responsibilities. We need to share these extreme circumstances between those that have been through it …no one in my day to day life even believes the nightmare me and kids are living.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago

I wanted to add: Tim, if you’re reading this, I have all the Grace in the world. If my husband had shown 1 ounce of the type of attitude towards what he did that you espouse on your website and in your blogs, we wouldn’t be getting a divorce today. But my husband refused to stop his affairs– yes, multiples! He refused to stop paying over $5000 dollars a month of our money for the apartment for his mistress of the day. He refused to use any protection when he had these extramarital affair’s and I got an STD. That didn’t stop him. He would text and sext whatever woman he was fucking right in front of our children so that they could see the texts over his shoulder in the car. He told our children he hated being a father when he got found out! He kept disappearing for days on end, I would later find out in our bank records that he had taken whatever woman he was currently fucking on a weekend trip. And I told him in marriage counseling and I told him every single day that I was not willing to live like that! I did not want an open marriage! Now I find out that his infidelities go back 25 years through all four of my pregnancies! So Tim, there’s literally nothing to work with! Again, if my husband was like you, I wouldn’t be here on this website.

MightyE
MightyE
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

I honestly DO believe cheaters can change. Some of them can see the consequences of their choices, decide they sucked, and fix themselves.

It’s just that they’ll end up applying that lesson in their next relationship, because I don’t see a way anyone could get over some of the crap that’s been done to people here, and I don’t think there ought to be any obligation to try. When you’re done, you’re done.

Patsy
Patsy
6 years ago
Reply to  MightyE

Change? Nope, sorry, I don’t think so. Cheating is about selfishness, its also about inability to genuinely connect to another human being, its about preferring warm fuzzy limerence (projection) for true attachment to another imperfect person with faults.

I don’t think that magically changes because the latest object that is making you feel good (projection) has darker hair, a few inches shorter or slimmer. He confessed to his two next soulmates that he had had an affair, they were horrified but decided they were special, until they ran into his inability to truly connect. Of which cheating is the finally unacceptably hurtful part of disconnect.

They remain as deep as a teaspoon.

horsesrcumin
horsesrcumin
6 years ago
Reply to  MightyE

My thoughts exactly, MightyE. Poor Tim. He doesn’t want to ALWAYS be a cheater because he cheated 20 years ago. Just like my ex. He’s a good guy. He fucked up and has worked bloody hard to apologise and understand how to never fuck up again (hint: just don’t fuck other people, works a charm for me.) But he never gets to be a guy who was faithful now. Despite his sad sausage, “but I loved you and was completely faithful for 27 years. I’m so sorry.” Just like I don’t get my lifetime of love and commitment. It fucking sucks. We had such a good thing going. My grace to him is that I still talk nicely to him and don’t point out his lack of character (often.) I’m actually sorry for him. And I do still care about him. Unicorns are pretty. But damned if I have time for all the bullshit that goes into maintaining their sparkling whiteness and redying the rainbows in its mane and tail.

I’ll admire from afar, and congratulate the person who’s brave enough to take on that dented model. I’m sure never taking on an ‘ex’ cheater.

Golfgrrl
Golfgrrl
6 years ago
Reply to  horsesrcumin

“Unicorns are pretty. But damned if I have time for all the bullshit that goes into maintaining their sparkling whiteness and redying the rainbows in its mane and tail.”

Exactly horsesrcumin. And I might add, in order to believe, you need to suspend or entirely change you belief system. Just for the unicorn.

The thing is you need a lot of hopium to get there. I can’t afford that.

horsesrcumin
horsesrcumin
6 years ago
Reply to  Golfgrrl

Lol. I spent five years desperately trying to will myself to suspend belief, Golfgrrl. Just not in me. Think I ways knew that. Ran outta my hopium supply years ago, and returning to the life that enabled the addiction? As we say down here, yeah, nah. Think I’ll pass on that, thanks.

jaded61
jaded61
6 years ago
Reply to  horsesrcumin

He’s a good guy. He fucked up and has worked bloody hard to apologise and understand how to never fuck up again (hint: just don’t fuck other people, works a charm for me.) But he never gets to be a guy who was faithful now.

^^^^Yep, this.

Just like my daughters step-mom will always be a woman who slept with another woman’s husband and played a part in the breakup of their family as they knew it. She can be nice, kind, and loving with them, and I am civil to her and him, but the facts do not change and they both know it.

They did not offer me grace or hope while lying and cheating to my face, but I am supposed to extend it to them? Civility is all I have to offer.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  MightyE

MightyE

My advice to you would be to fix your picker. Are you with a former cheater? Most OW or the future spouses (victims) believe they are special. By the time a chump dumps the cheater they have learned to go underground and have been cheating repeatedly with multiple partners. The OW the Limited hooked up with shares your view. He sold himself as a victim of emotional abuse. Yet, he was dating/fucking multiple partners until he noted she was the most needy. Weeks after I threw him out I received copy of his health insurance statement. He was getting tested for HIV because he KNEW he was having unprotected sex with multiple women.

Cheating is about a lack of character and gaining power and control over whomever they ‘select’. The only thing they change is partners and you can bet your ass if he cheated on a loyal spouse of many years, he has no honor to someone he just met.

It’s a puzzle, mighty. However, if you read here you will see they are not unique in their lack of integrity. Read about the three phases of a narcissistic relationship and the types of narcissists. I was with a covert narcissist, the most malignant in my opinion. They mirror your love, kindness, and empathy. They open doors for the elderly, and YET can abandon their own children.

If you are with a ‘reformed’ cheater you are wasting your energy. It’s always a lopsided equation. Read the verbally abusive relationship and learn about how an abusive person manipulates their victims. Con artists are very cunning.

MightyE
MightyE
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

No, I’m very happily single, and it would take someone really special to change that.

I just think people can grow if they want to. Trouble is not many really want to be better than they are.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Yep, he cheated on last wife, too. Said he learned his lesson. Nope. He just learned how to give yourself permission to violate vows, lie, and deceive. Then hide it.

Chumptitude
Chumptitude
6 years ago

^^^ THIS ^^^

I could have written the same comment neverwouldhaveimagined…

My biggest mistake was to trust my X, now I know better!

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Raising my hand–married Hannibal because he seemed to exhibit insight about his serial cheating in a former marriage. And now, here I am.

For what it’s worth, I do think Once a SERIAL cheater, always a cheater. There may be some instances of one-offs, but there certainly aren’t many examples of those from CN.

QueenBee
QueenBee
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Absolutely agree!! You don’t spend 20 years of a 22 year marriage serial cheating..profiles on Ashley Madison, Adult Friend Finder, SugarDaddy.com and using Craigs List for random hookups…then magically, when caught, suddenly become the faithful husband. A 45 year old man who has spent all of his adult life cheating will not change, and nobody in this world will convince me that he will.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

“But denying hope for a healed marriage is a shift to the opposite extreme.”

I believe what Tim is really promoting is the belief we have control over a cheating spouse.

Shouldn’t a one time (that we know of) affair be weighted on a spouses ability to look, act on, lie and have sex with an AP?

No he offers HOPE, not for the chump, but for the cheater. If only the chump chomps on that shit sandwich all will be well in fuck strange land.

No he’s not the extreme cheater. He’s a one kinda bad day I fucked strange kinda guy.

I see it as a lack of character and an indication of a poor investment. We can’t control the outcome. We DO NOT have that power. Cheating should be a deal breaker. Why run the marathon when the race is rigged?

nomar
nomar
6 years ago

The slow clap starts here, folks.

Today, CL wins the Internet.

Sorry, Tim. You probably meant we’ll, but you are ignorant on the topic you addressed. Likely you are ignorant because you are lucky, for which I am glad for you. But the advice of ignorant lucky people to unlucky people still in harm’s way is bad 10 times out of 10.

Chump Nation is flipping the script on indifelity therapy to focus on the chumps. The cheaters will lookout for themselves, as they always have. Therapists need to take note or risk becoming as irrelevant as leeches have become to modern medicine.

NoMoreNarcs
NoMoreNarcs
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

“But the advice of ignorant lucky people to unlucky people still in harm’s way is bad 10 times out of 10”

Well said. But I would add that it’s more than ‘bad’. “Insert least favorite food here” is bad. The advice ignorant, lucky people give those who are dealing with the disordered is harmful.

Very harmful. There is no safe dose.

ca-chump
ca-chump
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Sadly, being a unicorn milkmaid pays better than unicorn slayer. How many places on the internet can you find a therapist that actually states, out loud, that cheating is bad without immediately minimizing or qualifying it in some way.

Kar marie
Kar marie
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

You go nomar!! Well said!!

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Kar marie

Hell, Yeah, Nomar.

Scuffy
Scuffy
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

I want to defend Tim. I found his website before I found Chumplady, and I felt like he gave good advice, advice that was actually consistent with Chumplady’s.

It’s possible that I held out too long trying to make it work, but that was my own fault; he spoke truth from the start on gauging the seriousness of your cheater and counseled cutting your losses if the sincerity wasn’t there. He said it more nicely than did CL, but he basically says the same thing.

This is Not a Test.
This is Not a Test.
6 years ago
Reply to  Scuffy

Scuffy- You said you “held out too long trying to make it work, but that was your own fault.”

Please help me understand how you stop an adult from seeking and obtaining sex outside the marriage. Drones? Super glue? Trained crocodiles? Mossoud agents?

Do you see the self blame trick Tim has pulled that CL is exposing? When someone is conned with a love fraud, it is one of the rare, horrifying instances where there IS a black and white. No grey. There are not two sides to these pancake. There is a wronged party and a scumbag.

One person is used, abused and kept in the dark so the other person can get their rocks off with strange ass. Which many of us would have liked to have done, could have done but decided to honor covenants, promises & vows.

So, no matter how many mental leap frogs Tim tries to eek out, in his unwholesome obsession to show that a cheater could attain grace, absolution, atonement or enlightenment-

for those who have trudged this nightmare, located on the corner of West Shit and I am in Hell Avenue- it is just another manipulation to push some blame/shame/fault back on us.

NO way, No how- would I let his words penetrate my consciousness. We have come too far. It is deadly, deceitful and diabolical.

Scuffy
Scuffy
6 years ago

I’m not rationalizing cheating; yes, it’s black and white and ugly. I’m saying that, if my cheater had been sincere about repairing our marriage, I’d have accepted her back. Here’s what Tim wrote about making that call: http://www.affairhealing.com/guard-your-heart-after-an-affair.html

Giddy Eagle
Giddy Eagle
4 years ago
Reply to  Scuffy

This comment will probably not go over well, but I think you get one mistake. You start an affair and you recognize what you’re doing and you either fix it or get out. It really is that simple.

Ideally you figure it out before you actually sleep with someone… But there’s no rationalizing once the deed is done. Fix it or leave. Don’t string your spouse along for years. It’s cruel and narcissist.

Traffic_Spiral
Traffic_Spiral
6 years ago
Reply to  Scuffy

And if you had, she’d have fucked you over again. Tim is a cheater whose wife left him, and in between making his children write testimonials about how her anger over his affair was so horribly damaging, he’s created a narrative of “Oh I stumbled and strayed, but I really was such a good man and I could have totally been a good husband if that unforgiving bitch hadn’t had kicked me out!”

All his “guard your heart” shit is just elaborate justification so he can spin his narrative of “I’m not like all those other guys! I’m different!”

Giddy Eagle
Giddy Eagle
6 years ago

I remember thinking after DD1 that I’d love to take a 1 year sabbatical from our marriage so I could experience the high of a new relationship.

My DD1 was the discovery of an “online affair” more than a year after it was over. In his effort to reconcile, he admitted to a short physical affair years before — which I rationalized as a reaction to the death of his mom. I probed to make sure he was not having one affair after another, since he travels almost weekly for business. His response was “No, I’m not a monster.” Of course, he lied in MC numerous other affairs which I discovered DD2.

I thought I married a kind, gentle man. I now know he’s a narcissistic monster.

This is Not a Test.
This is Not a Test.
6 years ago
Reply to  Giddy Eagle

It is so true, Giddy Eagle! Who wouldn’t like the thrill of new lips, in the long slog of a long term marriage or relationship?

We are not beasts. Men or women would gladly welcome us in their arms, their bed. We could ride the roller coaster of secret texts, lusty hotel sex and the biological excitement of new skin.

But we have those pesky consciences. We would feel like we had sludge in our hearts. We could not scoop out the ice cream and smile at our mates and children with the strange scent of another on us. Because we do not delight in deception.

The moon can fall, the sun can melt, penguins can do calculus, but Giddy- I will never forgive. I don’t forgive monsters, as you aptly stated.

Giddy Eagle
Giddy Eagle
4 years ago

THANK YOU!!

I am so sick of everyone saying you have to forgive to move on. I will accept that what happened happened, but I will never forgive.

Why would I forgive the ONE person who was supposed to live and protect me ended up being the person that abused me? Give me a fucking break.

I am working on forgiving myself for staying in a marriage where I didn’t feel loved and didn’t feed my soul.

But at least I know why. I stayed because I didn’t want my child to grow up without a father like I did and I didn’t want to be a single mother like my mother was.

I had been married 10 years and together 13.5 when I had my child at 40. I thought I was in a rock solid marriage. Turns out he was cheating before we got pregnant. Who does that? A narcissist who likes his image and lifestyle.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago

Wow…TINAT….amazing writing! You hit it out of the park! ???

WisedUp
WisedUp
6 years ago
Reply to  Scuffy

Please share the link for Tim’s web site.

WisedUp
WisedUp
6 years ago
Reply to  WisedUp

hmm nevermind. easily found by googling

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago

Poor Tim…

As I struggled through his review I kept thinking to my self: this guy is a cheater, wanna bet?! Well, there it is around his last words of wisdom. “Unique vulnerabilities” indeed.

The content and condescending style of Tim’s poor review also makes me think that he is still a narcisist. More therapy for you Tim!

As usual, brilliant logic from CL. Tim didn’t have the guts to give you a 1 star like he really wanted to.

conniered
conniered
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

And this “former” cheater is now a marriage counselor….brilliant. Narcissist.

Mandie101
Mandie101
6 years ago
Reply to  conniered

Indeed! Some convert to pastors, presidents and motivational speakers….All categories talk a good game

nodancing
nodancing
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

I pegged him as a cheater too, he reveled way too much in the uniqueness of cheaters. He may not be cheating on his wife but he is a narcissist and one thing you cannot tell a narcissist is that they are just ordinary and not a unique paradigm of humanity with extraordinary pain that led them to where they are.

marriagedetective
marriagedetective
6 years ago
Reply to  nodancing

+1! This +100.

I seem to recall the CL says something to the effect of letting them keep their cake means that we allow them to keep that image that we are gifted with the splendidness that is them. They all seem to have this complex and if I may, Tim is using that same language to continue to justify what he did. Now he’s so special that he completely and thoroughly understands all the dynamics in infidelity.

Janet
Janet
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

I thought the same thing – he’s a cheater !

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand… This. This this this this, this this this. Oh, and also, THIS.

The only surprise his last statement revealed for me is that he openly admitted it.

kaycan
kaycan
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Exactly. As soon as he got to the passive voice and repetition of “vulnerabilities at play,” I knew he was a cheater!

Thanks, Chump Lady and Chump Nation, for teaching me this super power!

GoodMazal
GoodMazal
6 years ago
Reply to  kaycan

Yes kaycan! I too noticed the passive voice and thought “this guy is taking the responsibility out of cheating” and so it was.

conniered
conniered
6 years ago
Reply to  kaycan

Oh yes I thought the same thing….is he a cheater. then he confirmed it. Done.

marriagedetective
marriagedetective
6 years ago
Reply to  kaycan

Yes! I detected a bit of cheater speak in his “unique vulnerabilities” circle jerk because ….. this is EXACTLY the kind of language my cheater used.

Telling it like it actually is what CL does. I was really convinced that my X was “different.” I was convinced that he was different from all the other cheaters out there. I looked everywhere and to everyone for my “story,” the one story that was identical to mine and then I wanted to know what people had done about it. The thing that I love about CL is that she doesn’t minimize any cheating. Cheating is cheating. But then she also goes on to talk about common behaviors that all cheaters seem to have in common. It’s those behaviors that send you over the edge. For me the behaviors were present BEFORE the cheating. I had plenty of reasons to divorce before I found out about the cheating. It was the cheating that really sent me over the edge and magnified the behaviors. Gaslighting, talking in circles and cheater speak (like what Tim is doing here), lying, stealing money, blameshifting everything onto me, treating me like absolute garbage, etc., etc.

I gave 3 years of grace. My X never caught that virtue. But he did catch an even bigger sense of entitlement. Life on the other side is better. 3 years was 3 years too long.

StartofSomethingGood
StartofSomethingGood
6 years ago
Reply to  kaycan

Agreed.

He lost me at: “I was a cheater.”

After that, his opinion means nothing.

Jodi Lynch
Jodi Lynch
6 years ago

This.

His opinion means nothing.

Hesatthecurb
Hesatthecurb
6 years ago
Reply to  Jodi Lynch

I feel compelled to say to Tim what I said to POP about the forgive and forget option:

“Go fuck yourself.”

Happily ever after
Happily ever after
6 years ago
Reply to  Hesatthecurb

Yes, simple but effective. A full sentence.

Lola Granola
Lola Granola
6 years ago

Tim was a cheater. So naturally he sees the whole thing from the cheater perspective. If Tim had ever been chumped, he would change his tune.

Next.

Lady b
Lady b
6 years ago
Reply to  Lola Granola

Asshats first two girlfriends cheated on him, he was heart broken. I was his third and was for 13 years, he cheated on me. Go figure, what an asshole.

NoMoreNarcs
NoMoreNarcs
6 years ago
Reply to  Lady b

Ever wonder if your ex was ‘confused’ and that he projected his infidelity onto his then wife?

Or that he cheated on her, but once he found out that she was cheating too, that became the focus?

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreNarcs

That’s what I think happens more than that they were really cheated on. They projected their own cheating on the ex to excuse their behaviour.
Traitor tried to claim that he wasn’t sure his third son was his. He was studying 300kms away while wife was at home with the first 2 little boys. Mr was enjoying the student life in his 30s, boarding with an old lady, left wife supposedly when the third boy was 3 months old, and only then hooked up with his landlady’s 24 year old grand daughter… Yeah, right.
So what does he do? Starts insinuating that he wasn’t sure the infant was his son…
DARVO.

MightyE
MightyE
6 years ago
Reply to  Lady b

Mine too! His previous girlfriend got pregnant with someone else’s baby, broke his heart. But even having experienced it firsthand didn’t stop him?! WTF?!

Meanwhile, I had opportunities out the ass to cheat, and shut them all down cold. (I’m cute and friendly, what can I say?) I just made the mistake of assuming he’d do the same. :/

Blindside
Blindside
6 years ago
Reply to  Lady b

My wife claimed that her fiance before me cheated on her, and so she left him. Looking back at how she lied her way through the second half of our marriage, I highly doubt that’s what really happened. More realistically, I think she probably cheated on him.

Heck she was trying to tell me I was cheating on her when I caught her, so I’m sure her story going forward will be that I was the cheater. I guess if you tell yourself a lie long enough, you’ll believe it. No thanks to that mindfuck.

chumpinrecovery
chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Blindside

You must have been cheating on her. She said so and she would know better than you.

Lady b
Lady b
6 years ago
Reply to  Blindside

I was cheating on him 25 years ago when we where friends and I was sleeping around being all boho and liberated. He was my friend not my boyfriend but this according to him was me cheating, wtf, grasping at straws or thinks he owns me.

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
6 years ago
Reply to  Lady b

Lady b, insane isn’t it. On dday, skankboy shares with me his ex wife had cheated on him. (Why he told me this on Dday is beyond me.) I said to him, “you do to me what Kathy did to you? I just shook my head and continued to throw his crap into garbage bags! There will be no Grace coming from me now or EVAH!!

Lady b
Lady b
6 years ago
Reply to  nomoreskankboy

Silly me thought he would never cheat because he had been on the receiving end,, how silly and naive of me.
Not anymore this sucker has wised the fuck up.

Waffles
Waffles
6 years ago
Reply to  Lady b

I thought the exact same when XH said he’d been so decimated by ALL former GFs cheating. (First missed red flag) In retrospect, I think that was a lie. That lie is just the first step in order to line this chump up.

I suspect they give you the sob story to gauge your reaction. Makes the kibbles so much yummier when they KNOW you aren’t like them. You’re just some naive oaf that’s buying their bullshit, and boy oh boy, isn’t DD so much fun for them when they see just how much they gutted you? Must make them feel almost godlike to make you suffer like that.

How many of CN had a serial cheater that cried over how hurt they were when they were cheated on? I suspect it’s a tactic to lower your defenses.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  Waffles

The pity play…look out !

Why does this person want me to feel sorry for him/her ? Because I can be of use to said person ! Money, a listening ear as s/he drones about life’s woes,take your pick.

Run for the hills !

SingleMotherOf3
SingleMotherOf3
6 years ago

I left room for grace for 16 fucking years, so there. NaNaNaNa FooFoo!!

Guest
Guest
6 years ago

We had room in our marriage for Grace. I just didn’t realize that Grace was the name of a stripper.

Traffic_Spiral
Traffic_Spiral
6 years ago
Reply to  Guest

Hee! Yup.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago

Yeah, SMO3, that’s a great way of gauging chump-grace.

I gave my cheater THIRTY EIGHT years of grace. Now, maybe Saint Tim of Graceful Cheating should tell us chumps what the Magic Number is of grace-giving years before we give up.

Mandie101
Mandie101
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

70*70. Like Jesus said. Cause chump is a synonym for martyr and when we show our human side are unforgiving, bitter, etc. We are not turning the other cheek. Funny how at that point in the circumstances cheaters can cue biblical references. They even know about grace and redemption. But never ever restitution, compassion, repentance.
I’m not up for sainthood… God can forgive them. I won’t. Let that be my one mortal flaw. Toodles!

nomar
nomar
6 years ago

BTW, post-nups leave room for grace, while reducing (but far from eliminating) the chump’s exposure to further devastation. And my guess is that the percentage of cheaters willing to accept an ironclad post-nup heavily favoring the chump is minuscule. Are therapists like Tim willing to counsel cheaters otherwise, so they might be worthy of grace?

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

I offered my ex the chance for a post nup if he wanted me to put the divorce on hold and to give him another chance. His response? he called me a bully!

ca-chump
ca-chump
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Has a couples therapist ever recommended a post-nup to protect the chump? How about STD testing to protect the chump? They’d rather deal in nebulous issues like “offering grace” and “poor communication skills” than address the hard reality of harm reduction for the chump.

When you feed off of suffering, the idea is to prolong it — how many extra sessions can you book when the pregnant chump finds herself with a gonorrhea diagnosis? Or that poor guy who finds out that his cheating wife was hiding $50K in credit card debt?

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Yeah Nomar, the Key Word here is: “worthy of grace”.

Married for 38 years, my cheater wanted to reconcile, but did not accept my offer of a post-nup…..

Rebecca
Rebecca
6 years ago

Well said, Nomar!!!

“Flipping the script on infidelity therapy to focus on the chumps”

We are a NATION because Chump Lady has given us a safe, supportive space to speak out and support each other. A place where the reality of what was done to us, without our knowledge or consent, is shared openly.

Tim, you should check out the site’s metrics, including how fast this Nation has grown. We are making our voices heard and we will be louder than anything previously seen!

Hear us roar!

Isis
Isis
6 years ago
Reply to  Rebecca

“We are a NATION because Chump Lady has given us a safe, supportive space to speak out and support each other. A place where the reality of what was done to us, without our knowledge or consent, is shared openly.” THIS. This site helped save me after years of betrayal. It was the only place I could go where I wasn’t reminded that I was “at least partly responsible” for my partner violating our commitment and destroying our family. I offered nearly a decade-long “grace” period. That’s A LOT of interest to pay on that loan I took against my life.

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago

I am a member of Tim’s site and have commented on his forum (encouraging people to visit here often). Let me say this – he may be a ‘former cheater’, but he was a HORRIBLE cheater. He has shared his story and he treated his wife terribly and she never, ever recovered. He turned her adult children against her – and admits it. He says she didn’t take the infidelity well and was unable to ‘move on’ as she should have. He moved in with his whore and left her alone to raise the children, then got upset that depression consumed her.

He did a podcast with his grown children where he had them recount everything his wife ‘did wrong’ when dealing with his long term affair in which he finally decided to leave her and the children for his whore.

He is now supposedly happily married, while his ex-wife still suffers from the emotional trauma and now has children that disrespect her ‘weakness’.

He touts ‘grace’ while people are in their ‘affair fog’. Yes, you are supposed to give your cheater space while they decide if they want you or not. And, if you are honored enough to be chosen by them, be happy and ‘safe’ and don’t make them feel bad about what the ‘affair fog’ did to them. See, it wasn’t them or their failure, it was the fog!

He may be reformed in his new marriage, but the fact that he left his ex-wife in shambles and mocks her inability to simply move on when he chose the whore over her means he is still very much a cheater at heart.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

That just makes me sick to think of him having his kids talk about his ex wife crying too much, etc.
Typical cheater logic — the problem isn’t what he’s done, but her reaction to it. They always wonder why everyone can’t move on and just be friends?

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

I doubt he’s reformed at all. What he’s learned is that his actions had consequences and he probably lost half his assets and had to pay child support. Plus his old stinky wife won’t give him a pass, a high five and remain besties with him while buying into the narrative that they “just grew apart.”

That’s what he’s reformed about. He doesn’t want that to happen again and if that’s true then he learned a valuable lesson that he can use on his second wife. He never would have learned that lesson however if his first wife didn’t levy consequences.

Mom Of The Good Guys
Mom Of The Good Guys
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Oh, wow!!!!!

That’s…unconscionable. I’ve often felt that the chumped spouse should “get” the kids when an affair leads to a dissolution of the marriage. For littles, that means the chump gets primary custody, (barring extenuating circumstances.) And, older or grown kids need to rally to the side of the cheated-on partner.

The fact that these kids are Team Tim tells me that either he did quite a brainwashing job on them and/or they inherited their father’s “character”, (or, lack thereof.) Talk about insult to injury!

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

You can feel free to delete my link to the forum, it may not show for people. This is the link I should have used:

http://www.affairhealing.com/blog/leave-a-cheater-gain-a-life-book-review

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

He posted the same review on his forum. There was a discussion about your book on the forum. He had originally said he didn’t finish the book at first because of your use of the word “chump”. He then came back and said he finished the book and had written a review. I actually thought you were talking about the review on his page – I didn’t know he review it on Amazon as well.

Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life was the actual name of a thread: https://community.affairhealing.com/post/leave-a-cheater-gain-a-life-8513419?highlight=chump&pid=1296321189

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

So it’s the “C” word that bothers Tim, eh? Why should it bother him so much to the point of not finishing a highly entertaining, brilliantly argued book?

Chump, chump, chump, to you Tim.

Funny, my ex hated it when I called myself chump and hates it when I call him cheater. He says he is NOT a cheater….

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

I am not “coolbreeze” over there. My screen name that I use on that sight was taken when I registered here. So, I settled on coolbreezeout – which is another one with meaning for me 🙂

Hopium4years
Hopium4years
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

O.M.G. I literally sit here with my mouth hanging open.

This makes me feel sick.

I found his site. Couldn’t stomach listening to much of the podcast, but I heard more than enough! I heard his daughter say about his affair, “REGARDLESS IF YOU MADE A MISTAKE…” and I about gagged. No wonder he’s OK with her talking about this for all the world to hear because he has obviously trained her to think about his affair as a “mistake.” Aaaaaargh!

If his daughter had a healthier, more realistic, less blame-the-chump outlook on the devastation that cheating does, there’s no way he would have put her on a podcast because it wouldn’t have made him look good (narc much?). And I agree with Feelingit: it DOES sound like the entitled gene has been passed on. Daughter of cheater father, if your mother was emotional and overwhelmed at times, how can you gloss over the fact that HE did this to her, for crying out loud! He’s the asshole who wounded her so deeply.

All that aside – REGARDLESS IF HE MADE THE MISTAKE of getting his adult children to talk in public about his mistake/affair – I’m still shocked at the idea that someone like him is doing post-affair counseling for couples!! If he had any concept of ethical behavior, he would not go NEAR that area. He has NO business COUNSELING anybody who’s been cheated on! How can he be fair in a couples counseling situation?

Even doing individual counseling for cheater character-repair should be off-limits because he obviously has more work to do on HIS OWN character-repair. If he truly owned his asshole-ness and taught had taught his children more compassion and empathy toward their mother, THEN he might be ethically OK to do individual cheater therapy.

But I’m not even sure he should be doing counseling AT ALL, since he’s not likely to help anyone who’s secretive or lying about anything, since that was his own MO and he doesn’t seem to have learned enough to know that behavior is atrocious – NOT just a “mistake.”

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  Hopium4years

Does the forum have a list of wingnut therapists to stay away from ? Ethical or legal dilemma of outing trauma inducing charlatans ?

marriagedetective
marriagedetective
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

This is just awful! My heart goes out to the ex-wife. Poor lady needs to join our ranks.

WisedUp
WisedUp
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Can you share the link for Tim’s site?

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago
Reply to  WisedUp

I am not sure the rules of posting a direct link. But, the name of the site is affair healing. If you google ‘affair healing’ it should come up first for you.

The podcast I was referring to was number 107

There is a forum as well with a lot of hurting people that are being counseled to sit around and wait for the ‘affair fog’ to clear in the mind of their cheater.

No contact is encouraged, but only to the extent that it keeps you from pressuring the cheater back if that isn’t really what they want. Basically – it makes you look needy and not as attractive to the cheater.

Also, when you listen to the podcast, you will hear him laugh about lying to his ex-wife and the children about the affair being over. The kids said mom was driving past his house and saw the whore there and would see him with the whore. He admits (and chuckles) about lying to her and telling her he wasn’t with the whore, even though he was. So, he was literally driving this woman crazy and gas lighting her. However, he feels it was all just ‘affair fog’.

GraceInMotion
GraceInMotion
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Coolbreezeout, I knew there was a chump out there that he had harmed, felt it in my bones. I pray she finds us. That poor soul.

I would like to hit Tim in the face, gracefully of course, with this beer I am holding.

/Beth
/Beth
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

I get Tim and David Brooks are best buds. They are certainly cut from the same cloth.

NoKibble4U
NoKibble4U
6 years ago
Reply to  /Beth

I posted the same about David Brooks a few posts up. It’s bad enough that you cheat and fuck over a spouse, but then you’re pissed because they’re upset.

/Beth
/Beth
6 years ago
Reply to  /Beth

Ugh. *bet, not get. #fuckin’monday

chumpinrecovery
chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

PS. Thank you for outing him as the monster he is.

StartofSomethingGood
StartofSomethingGood
6 years ago

Agreed!!!

chumpinrecovery
chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Wow what an asshole! Blaming the chump for being weak because she couldn’t just get over and move on from the trauma he caused he. And her kids? What a bunch of stupid and ungrateful little gits. She is the one who stayed and took care of them even if she did feel the need to cry in her room sometimes. Would they have preferred that she cry in front of them? Its too bad Chump Nation wasn’t around 20 years ago to offer her the support she needed and to help her recognize the value of having his self serving ass out of her life..

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Oh my God, that is absolutely chilling. So he rips her to pieces then complains that he doesnt like how she acts in her destroyed state. monstrous.

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Which is exactly how all other entitled cheaters act. Just like a spoiled child destroying a favorite toy then throwing a tantrum that it’s now non-functional.

Chumpy UK
Chumpy UK
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

put this under his review on the amazon.com site!!

He’s making money out of being a nasty ‘man’ – what a weasel.

Meh or Bust
Meh or Bust
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

I was actually preparing a response until I read your comments CBO. Then I realized there was no point… no “pick me dance” for Timmo. You can’t have a rational conversation with an irrational person. He sounds cruel and disturbed. And, this only furthers my belief that out of all the “therapists” in the world, maybe 1% are really any good. CL, while not a therapist, is in the 1%. ‘Nuf said.

I’m going to mosey on over to Amazon and leave my own review now.

marriagedetective
marriagedetective
6 years ago
Reply to  Meh or Bust

No Pick Me Dance for Timmo! Woot! Agreed. You can’t argue with crazy. Throw your hands up and leave that cheater!

WisedUp
WisedUp
6 years ago
Reply to  Meh or Bust

Yes, I already went and clicked on “this review was not helpful.”

Meh or Bust
Meh or Bust
6 years ago
Reply to  WisedUp

WU, great idea – I did that too. Timmo is getting some feedback from others of us here, too, LOL…

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Tim’s stance falls into the excuse, “it’s not what I did, it’s your reaction, that is the problem.”

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Bingo!

NoKibble4U
NoKibble4U
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Exactly like that wing nut David Brooks.

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Wow. What a piece of shit Tim is.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Thanks for the reminder cool breeze out. I listened to his kids on that podcast early on after day. They were cutting on their mom for crying all the time and letting her pain show. We can’t expect kids to be the caretakers of our emotions and problems and it is horrible for them to have to see their mom like that but if as adults, they can’t appreciate what she went through to some degree and realize your dad needs to take the blame for being out fucking around while mom was maintaining the homelife then I feel sorry for their spouses. It sounds like they got the entitled gene too! I feel my blood pressure rising!

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

+1000, FeelingIt, the apples don’t fall far from the tree.
KB22, I hope you’re right, but if you’re not, heaven help their spouses, they’ve married narcs.

KB22
KB22
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

Many children of narcissists tend to take the narc parent’s side just to stay in their good graces. They perceive the narc parent as the strong one and panic at the thought of discard. Please do not think that I am bashing Tim’s ex wife but his ex may have been a doormat throughout the marriage (narcs love doormats but not for long) and then completely crumbled when he cheated and left. She may have dropped the ball on parenting her kids as she was too wrapped up and depressed her husband left her. The kids would naturally resent the mom for not being supportive. Hopefully one day the kids will recognize their piece of shit father for what he really is but at the moment he’s all they’ve got, in their minds anyway.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  KB22

I’m the one that went no contact with our father “Harlow” (nod to that experiment with baby monkeys and their wire surrogates) whilst my brother grew up to be a narcopath. Waiting for the shoe to drop in my brother’s marriage-he is entitled,selfish and lacks empathy but expects others to be there when he needs something.

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

Yup. I was horrified in hearing the podcast, because I could see the ex-wife being dragged through the mud yet again – years after the affair and relationship had ended.

How can she ever get to ‘meh’ is she is being publicly made to look like a fool for having her heart broken by a man she loved.

horsesrcumin
horsesrcumin
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Tim is a cunt.

Yep. That word I used to clutch at my pearls about. I use it now, when it’s due. Tim earned the title. Don’t be like Tim.

nomar
nomar
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Wow. If that’s true, Tim is a monster. No wonder he prefers a world including his concept of “grace.” Blech. Reminds me of my cheating ex-wife’s fondness for “unconditional love.” Emotionally immature and entirely self serving. I prefer to live in a world of integrity, reciprocity, and earned consequences. Most adults do.

MightyE
MightyE
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Love between adults is inherently conditional. Unconditional love is for your children.

Mandie101
Mandie101
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Was about to comment that reading Tim’s tripe I concluded that he was an unrepentant cheat. And even if he doesn’t cheat on his current wife (I doubt) he’s still an asshole who believes his own hype. Cheating (and the accompanying behaviors) is symptomatic of a very warped person. Therefore sorry but I don’t think that a cheater is ever cured.

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

If you can find his site, it is podcast 107 and it made my stomach turn. A good, reformed man would have had his ex-wife as a part of the conversation. Instead, it was his grown children recounting at the ‘ridiculous’, ‘inappropriate’ things his wife did and discussing how just was remiss in her parenting duties because she spent so much time in her bedroom crying.

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Yes, that’s were I went wrong, all that fucking crying in the car, in the shower, out on the farm. And the few times the kids saw it, that’s what doomed me.
Because the chumps isn’t allowed to have feelings, their hurt doesn’t count. The chump is like an appliance, chattels. When they can’t perform their duties to their usual level, they are worth nothing, a new host is better for the parasite.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  kiwichump

Oh kiwi chump, you couldn’t just stuff your emotions like a good little chump- how unattractive. You are not going to raise good little narcs if you let them see that it is ok to have feelings and express them. Go back to super Mr. Tim’s website and learn how to get your hair done, do your makeup and put on your happy face. Do not let your kids see you down- Life is all rainbows and unicorns

P.s. Thanks for giving me a good laugh with your sarcasm

Ohana
Ohana
6 years ago
Reply to  kiwichump

Brutal, kiwichump, but sadly accurate.

KibbleFree_MightyMe
KibbleFree_MightyMe
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Thank you, Coolbreezeout, for telling Chump Nation the TRUTH. This douchebag, Tim, STILL doesn’t care that half-truths are lies. We know this b/c he writes that he was a cheater, but now isn’t, but conveniently leaves out the facts that he is happily AN EMOTIONAL ABUSER of his x-wife, someone who pit her own children against her, and has no problem victim-shaming and blaming her for experiencing the mental and emotional trauma HE caused.

Tim needs a good bitch-slapping, and then some healthy fingerpointing and disgust at his trauma when he experiences the pain. What a douche. And seriously?? He’s employed as a therapist??

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago

Why does his AP/now wife condone his abuse of his ex-wife?

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Fellow narc or doesn’t want to take a good,hard look at who she married. Or $$$$$$

StartofSomethingGood
StartofSomethingGood
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

We need to send the ex wife a copy of CL’s book!

I have copies in my trunk!

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

So she was a bad mom for crying but he was just dandy even though he wasn’t even there.
I can’t even.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

There you have It… Tim, you are a phony…

Cactusflower
Cactusflower
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Yowza!! Tim sounds like a narcissist who reinvented himself to get more attention (not from his whores) My ex goes around with his sad basset hound face and tells everyone “I want to talk to her, but I can’t, because she HATES me”. THAT “sad sausage”. (Oh and he’s made absolutely no effort to talk to me … or “make amends” cuz he’s “working a program of honesty” – eyeroll.) The scapegoating/deflection that chumps have to endure is unbelievable-and in this case not only from their partner, but from the RIC.

Now I’m going to listen to the grunge classic “in and out of grace” by Mudhoney on “11” and jump around the room. The only thing Tim gets thanks for is giving me that ear worm to start off my week with great rock n roll.

Rock on Chump Nation!

The Ex-orcist
The Ex-orcist
6 years ago

This dude doesn’t know that CL’s collective anger on will be blowing hellfire in his direction. ??I’m meh and happy today. Without this blog I would still be with a cheating drunk rude miserable lying abusuve full blown sociopath.
This site saved me and gave me strength and clarity when I had nothing left to work with. I found out cheaters say and do the same stupid shit, kind of like this guy with platitudes galore for the RIC. Fuck that.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  The Ex-orcist

Oh yes, and they keep saying on the podcast that she is all cool with everything now and they are just one big happy family.

Really? Let’s here that from from the horses mouth!

The Ex-orcist
The Ex-orcist
6 years ago
Reply to  The Ex-orcist

Pardon my typos?

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
6 years ago

Infidelity and betrayal kills trust which is essential for a successful relationship. You simply cannot unring that bell. Much of his review pointed out your strengths followed by a “but” so he sounds like he feels guilty for cheating and needs to justify this unjustifiable behavior. His comment reads like he is still seeking redemption.

Reading that “couples can and do reconcile in ways that are satisfying to both of them” really stuck a chord with me. I now know chumps who have shared with me that they reconciled with their cheater and stayed married but still suffer feelings of profound sorrow and are deeply unhappy. They still feel betrayed, bear a tremendous sense of loss, and constantly fear it will happen again. They fear they will never be truly happy, but they are loyal so they stayed. What a price to pay.

I, too, have four DDays. I realized no matter what he said, his actions told me he did NOT want to honor our wedding vows. CL helped me understand the cheater wanted cake. That level of deception, living a duel life, is most definitely a perversion of marriage that jeopardizes the faithful spouse’s physical, emotional, and even financial well being. Pretending to be a faithful spouse while keeping someone on the side is a total mindfuck. And it is abusive. I lived it and survived by getting out.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
6 years ago

Dual, not duel. (Well, not yet anyway. Lol)

Coolbreezeout, your comment above was very enlightening. I will NOT be visiting his site, but I will take your word for it. What you wrote makes him sound like he is looking for a free pass. Cheaters don’t seem to get the trauma their actions have inflicted upon another.

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago

His daughter talks about being 14 and being exposed to the ‘mom’s pain’ and that it was an unhealthy environment to have to deal with.

He spent a significant amount of time talking about it being unfair that he had not been given an opportunity to tell ‘his side’ and that things were being said about him that weren’t true.

However, he was moving in and out of state, shacking up with the whore, and he is still telling his kids that he had a ‘side’ and things weren’t all his fault.

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

It is extremely unhealthy that a 14 yo had to deal with her mother’s pain. Caused by her POS cheating scumbag father fucking her mother around. And either side of the story is the wife is being a wife, raising a family, MARRIED to that POS and he’s FUCKING AROUND AND LYING ABOUT IT. What more needs to be said? He was sad and wanted out? Then leave. He wanted more sex? Then get counseling or leave. He was unfulfilled? Then get counseling and take up a hobby OR LEAVE! It’s not a difficult concept. Unless he spoke to his wife and said “I need something else or this relationship isn’t working for me anymore” and then they had a rational discussion about him having a secret slut whore on the side and her being okay with it, this is all. His. Fault. His wife didn’t find his whore and hook them up, then take his pants off and force his dick in her. He wanted to cheat. He liked the power and kibbles. He freaking LAUGHS about it! Tim you are a fucking MONSTER! And your ex-wife is still traumatized because you TORTURED HER!

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  Sad Shelby

Guess my father’s expensive hobby of stamp collecting wasn’t enough…Needed that post box in town because of said hobby. Yup-hiding money from my mother and no doubt having affairs with the p.o. box !

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  Sad Shelby

They just can’t pass up that cake!

Roberta
Roberta
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Does Tim realize that HE created that “unhealthy” environment his dear daughter was living in? Without he and his AP it NEVER would have existed! Sounds like he mindfucked his own kids! What a Prince!

chumpinrecovery
chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Yeah, being exposed to Mom’s pain was bad but that was Dad’s fault not Mom’s.

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago

And, mom’s pain was not just a one shot deal – it was constant. He admits in the podcast that he was lying and telling her and the kids he had ended things with the whore. Mom would drive past (with the kids in the car) and see the whore was at his house or he was out with the whore.

He literally laughs in the podcast when he tells the kids that yes, he was lying to them all at the time about the affair being over. So, he was literally torturing this poor woman. Of course she was acting crazy – he was literally gas lighting her!

Hopium4years
Hopium4years
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

I couldn’t bear to listen all the way through, but hearing that he chuckles about his continued cheating and lying about it to his family is SICKENING.

/Beth
/Beth
6 years ago

EXACTLY!

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

I pity Tim’s kids and their chances of having healthy marriages.

Welcome to Chump Nation, Tim’s chump!!! May you come here and find truth and enjoy a good belly laugh, and feel the healing from that alone.

You’ll see that you are right and that Tim is a big, stinking turd.

Come here, and join hands with us on the road to Meh, and the state of Mighty.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

I can’t count how many times stbx has told my children there are two sides to this story and you are never going to know mine. We want to put that on his tombstone when he dies!

As my son said, we are never going to know his because it’s always changing.

And follow the money Tim, first, betray your wife and now exploit her to make a buck. I just hope your royalties are part of her settlement.

Can you ask for grace while you are still sinning?

DesertGuy
DesertGuy
6 years ago

Tim…you say that you want to live in a world that values grace and has room for it…
So would all of us. I wanted to live with a spouse who valued me, our children, our commitment and didn’t have room for another man. I guess we don’t get what we want all the time, do we? And what do we do when we don’t get what we want? We understand the world that we do live in.
My x was always asking when i would forgive her – forgiveness is not telling her that what she did was all right – forgiveness is me laying down my wrath and desire to hurt her back – people do not understand forgiveness – it is choosing to give up the innate desire to retaliate.
People do not understand grace – they want a one sided grace – that what modern churches sell – one sided grace. One sided grace says – God forgives me, so…. It’s all good.
Real grace profoundly changes the recipient – they see the depravity of their actions, the condition of their soul, the horror of their actions on others – and they are broken by it. Real grace is vary rare – because it has been so diluted these days – Think about it – Amazing grace, so sweet the sound – that saved a WRETCH like me…. Nowadays…pop in to church on Sunday – sing a few bars of some catchy tune about how God is my friend…hear the 7 habits of effective people… God loves you and forgive everything – done.

That is cheap grace that mocks everything grace is.

Cleopatra
Cleopatra
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Brilliant! That comment is inspired, Desert Guy.

HELENA
HELENA
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Your view on grace and forgiveness is right on the money, totally agree and well said

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Desert Guy, I hope you write a guest column one of these days. Beautiful post. Thank you.

Spackley
Spackley
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Thank you!
I’ve been looking for the perfect response for all the chuckleheads who are telling me I HAVE to forgive.
My version of forgiveness is just what you wrote. I too have laid down my wrath and desire to retaliate because that level of hatred was unhealthy for me. Cheaty has more than enough hate and bitterness in his heart for both of us. I no longer see the point in carrying that burden in my own heart.

Kar marie
Kar marie
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Bravo desert guy bravo! Well said. Apparantly TIM didnt bother to read chump ladys story or any of us here. He would know way more of grace. Four ddays for me over 30 years. I gave him grace four times. No more. My best advice to anyone would be eat no more shit sandwiches from anyone.

Mandie101
Mandie101
6 years ago
Reply to  Kar marie

This grace is sounding like a combination of rugsweeping and ‘forgiveness’. More kibbles.

MsMachete
MsMachete
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

“Real grace profoundly changes the recipient – they see the depravity of their actions, the condition of their soul, the horror of their actions on others – and they are broken by it.”

This right here. ☝️☝️☝️

Beth
Beth
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Brilliant comment Desertguy. Thank you.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Desert Guy,

Your comment brings tears.
So true about what true grace is.

That is why I like, no, LOVE CL and CN. It really is all about honesty and true grace.

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Standing ovation, DesertGuy.

Thankful
Thankful
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Real grace is amazing,
Fake grace sucks the life out of you while demanding more.

FightingChumpiness
FightingChumpiness
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

From what I know of John Newton, he never got over what he had done while a slave trader. While receiving Amazing grace, John never ‘forgave himself’ from what he had done and it haunted him the rest of his life. That sounds like repentence to me.
NOT this Tim therapist!!!!!!>:(

DesertGuy
DesertGuy
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

CL – do you track the comment rate?…i.e. comments per hour…i can always tell how deeply you have touched the nation by how quickly the comments flow…Bravo on this one – bunches of responses right away – a bad day for Tim…

StartofSomethingGood
StartofSomethingGood
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Ain’t THIS the truth!!

nomar
nomar
6 years ago
Reply to  DesertGuy

Nailed it.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Yep.

CleotheFormerChump
CleotheFormerChump
6 years ago

This:

*You want “grace”? Meh is Really. Fucking. Hard. It’s a goddamn achievement.*

Brava, Chump Lady!

Jessica
Jessica
6 years ago

Considering how many cheaters actually disguise personality disorders (or reveal through that very action?), perhaps all of them, encouraging people to stay and reconcile means ultimately becoming responsible for a certain number of assaults and homicides. It’s domestic abuse, let’s stop spinning this any other way once and for all, Tim!

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago

Well, BAM!! For CL’s response !!

“What makes you think we didn’t already offer cheaters grace and get kicked in the teeth? Again and again and again and again? (Four D-Days here, Tim. FOUR. What’s my grace score?)”

Wanna hear about Grace? I will show you some Grace… I was a good and faithful wife for 26 years, I never even called my (then) husband a bad name. I went to daily Mass and prayed for his soul for 7 years – while he living 3000 miles away claiming to simply be working there but odd that his OW had also gotten a job in that city quite far from the city where her fiance lived.

And I took him back and wreckonciled my family and later learned that not only did he never tell the truth, he had cheated for most of our marriage…his side of the marriage was a big giant lie, but I was all in. I was on my knees praying for his soul and I must have done quite a good job since God (who gave him more chances than I did) decided to end this charade and scooped his ass off of planet earth.

He was a liar and cheat and rager. I stayed with him to his last breath and gave him a hero’s funeral – only yo learn that he had lied like a thousand times worse than I had ever guessed…I left lots of room for Grace, but my right to have agency in my own life was stolen from me.

Most of us here left the door wide open for a long time and got kicked in the teeth for it.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

“my right to have agency in my own life was stolen from me.”

So true.

Roberta
Roberta
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

I’m right there with you Unicornnomore, and many others at CN. Try as I might I just had to throw in the towel finally, but got hoovered back! I gave much much better than I got from him. Part of my resentment now is knowing he NEVER would have done for me what I did for him in the end. But if Tim wants to talk about grace then he should have been sitting with me night after night watching my cheater die. I didn’t see Tim at the beautiful funeral I gave my cheater! Where are you Tim? Mr. Paragon of virtue? I call BS on Tim and his crappy review!

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Roberta

Roberta

I just love you! Your story has touched me since joining CL. When faced with the most devastating challenges you repeatedly showed strength and grace. What you did in the end was the most selfless act of kindness. You never deserved to be treated with such disrespect and indifference. You deserve to have peace and joy in your life. You are a mighty amazing woman I admire. Thank you.

Roberta
Roberta
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Awwww, Doingme, thank you, but I’m just a regular run of the mill chump trying to do my best so I’m able to sleep at night! This blog is chock full of guys and lady chumps who are just amazing, including you Doingme! We all are dealing with the unimaginable end of our “dream” lives, but by God, we at least get to write the ending! And from what I see here we have so many Mighty heroes and I’m so proud to be associated with these chumps if only on a blog! This shit is hard, but we are facing it head on with CL’s help and getting up everyday and building that better life we all deserve! The best revenge is living well!!! It kills these cheaters to know they didn’t destroy you. They really resent us and it eats them alive to know we really can do very well without them!

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Roberta

“It kills the. Cheaters to know they didn’t destroy you!”

So true Roberta.

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

I, personally think both of you rock, Roberta and Doingme! You are both examples of courage, grace and good character, and a great big hug to both of you. Count me in as a member of your fan club!

SeeTheLight
SeeTheLight
6 years ago

Sounds like a poor joke…that was my life. Cheater got Grace, and then Brianna, Gabrielle, Anne, Scarlett, Dawn, Andrea….