When Splendid People Cheat

I'm not definedSo, yesterday I got to tangling with remorseful cheaters on an infidelity board (Talk About Marriage).

Someone posted my article skewering that Victoria Milan survey published at HuffPo about the reasons women give for cheating, the foremost of which was “lack of a sense of humor.”

For some reason, this article got the dander up of several reformed cheaters who post over there. Look, TAM is a pro-marriage site that is anti-cheating. So, naturally, it’s a place for people in reconciliation, most of those folks chumps, and a few cheaters — or “wayward” spouses as they prefer to be called. (The cheating thing is all in the past.)

The satire in the HuffPo response comes from the fact that the “reasons” active cheaters give for cheating are freaking RIDICULOUS.

But apparently, some reformed cheaters can’t really laugh at stupid shit cheaters say. So skip it, right?

No — kill the messenger. Here’s one thoughtful response.

I went ahead and took the liberty of copying the entire column from the TAM and Huffington Post renowned Chump Lady. To be honest, I think the biggest “chumps” are her faithful readers. You see, she, and her high priced, divorce lawyer, hubby (hubby #2, of course, because without hubby #1, there would be no Chump Lady, at all) make big bucks off of us “bad! Bad! Bad! Idiots.”

Her hubby makes his big bucks off of handling big money divorces. And, the Chump Lady makes hers off of continuously stirring the venom pot, of those who have been affected by infidelity, in her regular column/blog/whatever it is,  in The Huffington Post. To quote the famous line from a Seinfeld episode, “Not that there’s anything wrong with that!” And, I suppose there isn’t…… really??? But, what exactly is good about her column? Well, it’s probably a very good source of income for the Chump Lady, and her high-priced divorce lawyer hubby! In fact, it may even help keep her hubby’s business booming by providing an ongoing, and steady source of disgruntled, stirred, and shaken clientele! And, that, too, would be very good for the Chump Lady, indeed!

She then went on to say she doesn’t read my column.

So, I took the bait. I got on and said, actually my husband is a civil rights attorney for mostly poor people who are victims of race, gender, or pregnancy discrimination, and work place injury. (Texas is the only state in the nation, that doesn’t require workers comp). He does plaintiff side only work, on contingency — which means he takes NO money from his clients, and only collects if he settles or wins their case in court. (In other words, he’s awesome at what he does.) He enforces the Civil Rights Act every day with his own damn money and is not a high priced divorce lawyer. (But we did get a good chuckle about that.)

Oh, and for anyone who is curious — I don’t make money on this blog. You guys are terrifically kind about donating and Amazon sends me about $20 a month for ads, cafe press the occasional $5 for mugs sold — but over all for what I’ve spent to create it, versus any income its generated in two years — it’s a negative cash flow (not adding in my time either). Now, when my book is for sale next month? I will shamelessly promote it, now that I’ve built this community. Just so you know my nefarious plans, chumps.

ANYWAY — back to cheaters. What was fascinating to me is that here is a community of REFORMED cheaters who cannot admit that cheaters give stupid excuses when they cheat.

I guess the fantasy reformed cheater in my mind looks at that shit and goes “Oh yeah, I used to say crap like that. I’m so embarrassed now that I blameshifted my affair on to my chump. I cheated because I was selfish and because I wanted to. That’s on me 100 percent.”

It will probably come as no surprise to any of you who spent 5 minutes in reconciliation that NO, it’s waaaaay more “complicated” than that.

Chumps, you need to own your part in making them cheat.

It is too easy to say that the affair is all on the WS and that’s that.

Yes, it’s easy because it’s common sense. Unless the chump and the cheater were boffing the same person, only ONE person was in the affair, and duh, it’s all on the cheater.

I think that there are many many reasons why spouses cheat. It can be entitlement, it can also be narcissism, it can also be because the wandering spouse just wants hugs.

Yes! Cheaters go out and wander in search of HUGS! Can you imagine that scenario — lonely guy just approaching random people on the sidewalk looking for an embrace. Who does that? A sad person who is hug deficient, that’s who!  A person reduced to such circumstances is not a person who is getting hugs at home.

Hug me before I cheat again!

But the biggest reason cheaters give for cheating is their “brokenness.”

You see, they’re splendid people who were in a dark place. And they live with the crushing weight of what they’ve done, so don’t mention it, or make fun of it, or point out that, uh, it was a million times worse for the chump. DON’T YOU THINK THEY KNOW THAT?

I love this trope that cheaters go around with the heavy weight of remorse. I understand that no one wants to be reminded of their mistakes, but I think an element of sincere remorse is the ability to suppress your embarrassment and discomfort and express contrition.

I find it highly suspect that the reason you can’t express displeasure with a cheater, or make satire of remorseless cheaters, is that they’re so sorry already. Isn’t this just a bit of mindfuckery to get chumps to shut up? And make the cheater the real victim here?

 Sure, sometimes, perhaps even often, one never knows exactly why it took place. But often the reason is something toxic in the marriage and that needs to be fixed.

What reasons do they now give? That they were deeply broken people. That they had huge psychological flaws and damage and poor mechanisms for coping with them.What do they say about it now? That they live every day with the knowledge that they were not the people they thought they were, that they are people who are capable of inflicting horrific damage on the ones they loved, and that they live with that self-knowledge every day of their lives.I know how bad I feel about the way I neglected my wife and failed to be there for her during my major depression. I cannot imagine how bad these remorseful waywards feel. I wouldn’t trade places with them for all the tea in China.

Some are my friends now, and I worry every day about how deeply they are scarred by what they did and how prone they can be to depression. It is a very, very heavy weight they carry.

Look, just because you have a poor mechanism for coping with stress does NOT absolve you of responsibility for your CHOICES. Infidelity is a choice based in entitlement. Why can’t cheaters who claim to be reformed let the buck stop with them? Why are there addendums and caveats and White Papers on the complicated issues that arose that compelled them to cheat?

From the woman who thinks my husband is a divorce attorney:

though I regrettably, eventually, choose selfishness, as a coping mechanism, during a time when I felt very sad, lonely, hopeless, defeated, demoralized, and broken, before, during, and after my affair, (for quite some time) I am not, was not, and never will be bad! Bad! Bad!

No, you’re just another splendid person who cheated.

Where is the ice pick of shame? (Sigh)

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TheMuse
TheMuse
9 years ago

Wow – “the knowledge that they were not the people they thought they were”??? NO, on the contrary, they knew who they were. They just didn’t want their chump to know. Since when is lying and deceiving someone who loves you a “coping mechanism?” sheesh.

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  TheMuse

“Since when is lying and deceiving someone who loves you a “coping mechanism?” sheesh.”

Depending on their brokenness and emotional hurting, poor things, I suppose that shoplifting, assault, abducting people for ransom, or bombing buildings could be coping mechanisms too.

Apparently in their warped little minds we owe them understanding and maybe even gratitude that “all” they did was lie, steal, and cheat. I mean they could have done worse, right?

I know of a cheater (not mine, but they are pretty much the same anyhow) who said he wasn’t a bad person because he wasn’t a druggie, he had a job, and didn’t beat his wife. Implying that she should be somehow thankful and appreciative of him that he wasn’t as bad as all that.

They like to think they are good people who did some unfortunate things when the truth is they are entitled assholes who made selfish, mean choices they knew would hurt people.

Chumpectomy
Chumpectomy
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

“They are entitled assholes who made mean choices they knew would hurt people” This is correct!

Kelly
Kelly
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

My ex-cheater thinks he was a good husband and father although he cheated on me for at least 17 years of our 25 year marriage with “family friends” including unprotected group sex, making fools out of me and our children and most importantly himself. (We all unknowingly socialized with the AP’s, their children and families before the D-day revelations). After leading such an astonishingly deceptive double life, why does he think this? Because he clings to the idea that since we BELIEVED him to be the man he pretended to be at the time, he therefore WAS that man in a way… and thus all those years of deception should still somehow be “real” to us….and so those were not wasted years of horrible lies, they were “good” years.

You see, my ex is not just a normal narcissistic cheater, he is a KING AMONG NARCISSISTS– unlike your normal peon cheaters out there, my ex had enough attention and love for EVERYONE, his wife, his children, and his AP’s….he is supreme as the most PERFECT cheating spouse ever, one who can pull off the deception so brilliantly that he STILL was a good husband and father to his family! See!! It all makes sense and it is all okay!!

Yeah, your eyes will cross trying to understand that logic.

Miss Sunshine
Miss Sunshine
9 years ago
Reply to  Kelly

It completely boggles my mind that there are seemingly loads of people who engage in “group sex.” If I’ve ever met them, I don’t know it, I suppose. Who are these freaks?? Do they just walk around looking normal? Have I met them and just been put off by their general ickiness? I think maybe that’s it. Maybe I should wonder if people who make my skin crawl, with their grabbing and leering, “I’m just JOKING!!” are all group sex aficionados. Is that it?

I just shake my head all the time nowadays…. I never realized how naive I am. I guess that’s the whole point. When you’re naive, you have no idea of what you don’t know.

Kelly
Kelly
9 years ago
Reply to  Miss Sunshine

“When you’re naive, you have no idea of what you don’t know.”

Miss Sunshine, this is so true. I didn’t even know what a Brazilian wax was when D-Day rolled around, couldn’t figure out why the people in the porn I found on ex’s computer all appeared to have hairless genitals. Sigh…..

And yes, my ex and his AP’s and their cabal of little friends were sorta the kind of people who gave off creepy predatory vibes, the women always pawing at and “adoring” of any man they met, like something out of the remake of Dracula with Keanu Reeves. But I was married for so long, I trusted my husband, he was just a bit flirty, those women may do things with others but not with my adoring spouse, not while they were guests in my home and both of our “friends.”

Of course the answer was, yes they were doing those awful things, yes they got off on doing it around me and my children, no I truly never thought my ex could be so cruel, sick and disgusting. I do think he was a “sex addict and porn “addict” for want of a better term. They have to keep upping the excitement ante because “normal” sex and increasingly abnormal ex just doesn’t do it for them anymore. I now admit that I KNOW there was so much more he did, possibly so much WORSE, but also know I cannot even imagine what that is (fifty shades? Sex with animals?) Oh and I did have to ask our 3 children if ex and his AP’s ever did any thing sexually inappropriate to them…their answer was no but I still worried.

Sick fucking perverts.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Kelly

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/bram_stokers_dracula/

“Take me away from all this . . . death.” 😉

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

It’s a stupid movie, but one of my favorites. One of my other all time favs has to be “Showgirls”. Lol lol lol all night long. 🙂

Kelly
Kelly
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Haha awesome, thanks Rumblekitty!

ANC
ANC
9 years ago
Reply to  Miss Sunshine

Last yr I found out I was engaged in group sex! You see, asshat’s fuckbuddy and her husband did lots of group sex and swinging and who knows what else.

If you live in Orange County or LA, WE MAY BE FUCK BUDDIES too! 6 degrees of makin’ bacon. ( the fuck buddy is a wide-loaded pig cow. I know. I’ve seen the thong. My mini van could drive thru it.)

Rosie Boa
Rosie Boa
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

Oh dear lord, my husband once told me (during his gambling addiction stage) that he was a good husband because he didn’t get drunk or beat me up!

What’s worse? I took it as a valid point!

I’m still not sure if I’m just a hopeless, spackling chump with no boundaries, or if he’s been messing with my head the whole time!

LiningUpDucks
LiningUpDucks
9 years ago
Reply to  Rosie Boa

My ex also gave me the same line. I think mine truly believed his lack of domestic violence made him a great husband, and therefore entitled to whatever moods or affairs or anything he wanted.

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
9 years ago
Reply to  LiningUpDucks

I have actually addressed this on a different forum about 1.5 years ago. Seems that as long as the cheater/abuser hasn’t murdered anyone or robbed a bank that they think of themselves as ‘good’ people…

…as if the self-control it takes NOT to murder anyone or rob banks is SO GREAT that they have to compensate by “allowing” themselves a ‘time out’ from self-discipline.

Imagine their surprise when they actually have to face consequences for their lack of self-control…

G.

Kara
Kara
9 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

In my circle of friends, we call this a “bitch cookie.” Expecting praise or reward for something you should/shouldn’t do anyway.

Oh, you actually did your classwork and DIDN’T abandon your group presentation partners? …Do you want a f*cking bitch cookie?

Oh, you did your laundry instead of leaving it all over the floor? Here’s a bitch cookie.

Oh, so, you DIDN’T murder/rape/beat the shit out of your spouse? Bitch. F*cking. Cookie.

You don’t get a damn gold star for meeting standard expectations. And cheaters don’t get gold stars for not being physically abusive. Bitch cookie.

Toni
Toni
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Ooh-Ooh-Ooh!

When the book comes out and sells gazillions CL can tie it in with (kind of like a Girl Scout) ” Bitch Cookie” as a classy little bonus when you buy the book!

I mean really, who wouldn’t LOVE to be able to pick up something for a newly Chumped friend all at one time when you get “that call” from them and they need you NOW?

Instead of the old magazines / chocolate / tissues …..you can bring the
CL book / shit fudge / and a packet of fancy CL napkins (with a CL cartoon) all ready to go? If nothing else it would be a convo piece! A great thing to have on hand on your way out the door!

Jodezter
Jodezter
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Love it!! That’s so spot on!

Bigsvig
Bigsvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

I love this, too!

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

There’s a meringue type of thing you mix with berries, called a “fool”

Annie
Annie
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Love,love, love it!!!

namedforvera
namedforvera
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

oooh. I see the beginnings of a Chump Cookbook…

— Bitch Cookies

–Chucked my Cheater Chuck Roast

–Court Bouillon de Divorce Court

–And, of course, Freedom Fries!

whodathunk
whodathunk
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Love it! Chris Rock did a bit about that same concept, but I like your take a bit better!

CW
CW
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Nice!

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Yeah! I’m gonna make some bitch cookies!! Thanks Kara. 🙂

Chump Princess
Chump Princess
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Kara,

I am so using this! I think my Flaming Turd may have a garage full of bitch cookies.

LoyalGaga
LoyalGaga
9 years ago
Reply to  Kara

I love this!! The Bitch Cookie!!! Thanks, Kara!

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

Well put, G.

Sandy R
Sandy R
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

“Imagine their surprise when they actually have to face consequences for their lack of self-control…”
Face consequences? Not my STBX! We are smack dab in the middle of a divorce and since I didn’t roll over and die, give in to his demands, and throw roses after he and the OW as they rode off into the sunset, it’s a whole new ballgame for him. Instead of taking responsibility for what HE did, somehow he’s managing to turn in on ME. Everything is suddenly MY fault. So nope..no consequences for my asshole. Apparently he’s above all that.

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
9 years ago
Reply to  Rosie Boa

The truth is, that there are plenty of “bad” or “wrong” things that people can do that don’t rise to the level of being a ‘crime’.

But it doesn’t mean they’re “good” things…

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago

My STBX’s excuse was first ” he was curious” now 6 months down the track his excuses when asked why he did it and I quote ” I have been released from an unclean sexual spirit” WTF???????????? No Buddy just like every other person that walks this earth you were given free will and you chose. But it is not a subject that is easily discussed as clearly according to him I am unable to deal with my issues and cannot understand how much this hurts him when I bring it up.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Figures . . . I’m ruled by the spirit that makes me an awesome mom, I pay my bills on time, and go to work everyday. Fuck!

Lisah
Lisah
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Another fuckin Jesus cheater I bet. The devil made me do it!!!

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

CL – My thought exactly.

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

” I have been released from an unclean sexual spirit”

Oh my fucking God did he really say that !!!!???? ? Did you smash him upside the head with the iron skillet after he said that !!?? ? I thought my ” I need a connection” excuse was bad,, holy batshit fucked up !

GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

The “unclean sexual spirit” thing makes me think of my ex. When I was stupid enough to take him back in bogus reconciliation, he said he had a mantra that was going to keep him from having sex with men: “I will not be someone else’s demon.”

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

*snort* sounds like “I will not be somebody’s bitch.”

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

Oh MichaelD you nearly made me spit my chocolate milk.
Yep he really said it. No he didn’t get hit as we were on the phone. which is a good thing because if I had hit him the next excuse would have been ” it is all a result of my violent tendencies” which is one of the stories he has used to explain our separation or his part of it. This was his counter for my telling people the truth. His initial reason he gave our friends for our separation was that I had put him out because I caught him doing porn.

Oh the crap they tell……… “but their not bad people” just ask them

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

With a NARC its all about his image 😉

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

Wow their excuses are dumb as hell. Spirits, connections, yadda yadda. Bullshit.

Mine said that he was possessed by alcohol and it made him do whatever the women around him said to do. As a never been much of a drinker I wouldn’t know. I mean the chumpy part of me realizes it influences people and he certainly did look and act different while he was in the drinking years, but miraculously, he never screamed at his coworkers or whores, never got violent with anyone besides me, etc. during that time.

So either the alcohol demon just hated me personally, or it loosened him up to act on his resentment he already had been building up against me.

I think the most damaging excuses are the ones where there could be a small smidgeon of truth because they make chumps question their role in all of it.

I suppose I was an enabler because I didn’t have a clue and then once I did know I made him move out because he wouldn’t get help. But he was abusive, cheating before I kicked him out anyway.

Some of the shit these cheaters come up with is just so stupid, I don’t understand how they don’t die of embarrassment after being such idiots.

Diana L
Diana L
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

I think this is where why doesn’t help. If he has a drinking problem, that’s still a reason for divorce.

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

I should also mention
In my STBX’s F’ed up world his 8 years of infidelity is not the issue in our marriage, it is my unwillingness to forgive him and love him unconditionally as I promised to do when we exchanged vows that is the issue.

blue
blue
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Yes, I got that, too. If I truly loved my XH, I would have let him freely have OW as that made him happy, and if I truly love him, I wanted him to be happy. And when that relationship didn’t work out for him, I should have taken him back with open arms, because that is someone who truly loved him would have done. It’s like the cheater is trying to make the chump the selfish, unloving bad person in this drama.

It’s sort of like male-to-female transsexuals who are married to women and have children with them and for all intents and purposes have led largely heterosexual lives. Suddenly, in middle age, because of their sexual fetishes, they have a need to undergo sex reassignment (they get sexually aroused by the thought of dressing/behaving like a woman; this is different from people who suffer from gender dysmorphic disorder, who have felt “trapped” in the wrong body since early childhood). If you read what they write (which I have, as XH indicated to me after D-day that he was seriously considering gender reassignment surgery if he hadn’t had the affair), they generally feel entitled to their wives’ love and faithfulness after they’ve pretty much threw a bomb into their lives. They generally want to stay married to their wives and have the benefits of married life with their “best friend,” while living as a woman and having “just sex” with men. And if their wives decide to leave them, many of them blame their wives, saying things like: “If she really loved me, she would have stayed. Nothing has changed about me, just my outward appearance. She obviously never loved the real me, the inner me. How can she be so selfish?” There are actually a lot of women who stay married to their men after they undergo sex reassignment; I’m not sure how they do it.

Miss Sunshine
Miss Sunshine
9 years ago
Reply to  blue

You can’t love someone you don’t respect and admire. You’ll have to call whatever those feelings are something else. There are lots of reasons why people stay after being abused, but it’s not because either person is emotionally healthy.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Miss Sunshine

OK. If someone is fine with a spouse getting his or her gender “re-assigned,” that’s up to them. But in the real world, where the sane people live, we generally know what gender we prefer, what our sexual preferences are, and we limit the pool of prospective spouses to that group (or groups, for bisexuals). It’s a deal breaker for me, at least, if someone wants to change teams in the middle of the marriage because I get choices too. Just as if I felt it was important to marry a person who works for a living rather than robbing banks, for the spouse to turn to bank robbing–dealbreaker. End of story.

Diana L
Diana L
9 years ago
Reply to  blue

This is such warped logic. If he truly loved you, he would have been faithful to you, because that is what makes you happy.

If he loved you unconditionally, after he cheated, he would accept your anger and do what you wanted.

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Yeah, not that he BROKE the vows, but your inability to look the other way.

Wonder how he’d feel if you were the cheater and he was the betrayed?

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

Honestly Red if it had been me who had cheated I would have been frog marched to the front of our church and all my my transgressions laid bare. His have been kept secret and then the deliverance thing gave him the perfect out. He is free of all responsibility.

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Why is he getting off Scot free? Why is this being kept a secret? Why is he free of all responsibility?

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

As one of the elders in our church put it to me when I asked the same thing in the beginning. ” we are not going to tell everyone what has happened as it may hinder his recovery” they are standing by this notion that when they are done with him that they can just reinstall him back into our family unit and that I as the dutiful wife should just sit and wait no matter how long it takes.
What they do not realize is he has bigger issues then infidelity and by keeping his shit secret they are enabling him because in his mind they are with him against the rest of the real world and they are arming him with all he needs

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

That’s simply crazy. Like the church elders get to decide that you have to take his abuse. So glad you walked away from that mess. What a nest of crazy people, thinking they have the power to fix him and decide your life for you. Sounds more like a cult than a church.

Miss Sunshine
Miss Sunshine
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Sammie–good for you for leaving. I’d be like, “Y’all can forgive him all you want. I’m outta here. Good luck!”

And, Hawk–ex is just better at hiding now, or biding his time. As long as it serves him in the basest way, that’s what he’ll do.

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Sammie, I applaud you for leaving that church.

And, FWIW, there are theories out there that telling others would have HELPED his “recovery”, because less people would feed him ego kibbles and believe his bullshit.

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Wow! Just…wow.

So, they’re going to “fix” him and put him back in the family like nothing happened? Maybe THEY should live with him for awhile instead of you!

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

I had something similar. I was pressured to forgive and let go because he’s “being a good person now.” Well no kidding he is. That’s part of the way abuse works. Tried showing them that but they believe he’s had a miraculous identity transplant.

It made me look like a grudge holding bitch because he has been a really nice person for several months now. They don’t understand that he was this nice and good before and how stupid would I be to disregard eight straight years of asshole behavior for five great months of Mr. Nice. It’s been so bad that I frequently remind myself of the lies, abuse, and cheating he did, so that I won’t become accepting, numb, or complacent. In short, I am afraid of being duped again before I can get out of this completely. And I should be afraid. I’ve been through the nice periods before and don’t see why this one will stick when the others didn’t.

Stay strong, Sammie D.

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

for the record I don’t attend church there anymore.

Red
Red
9 years ago

All the things I did wrong in the marriage? XH can talk for days. All the things HE did wrong, including the affair? Skip it. Because it makes him look like “the bad guy,” like he’s something less than spectacular.

I didn’t read the TAM post, but it sounds like those reformed cheaters are still hanging on to the “I’m not a bad guy” mantra to some extent. Yes, they cheated, yes, they’re sorry, and yes, they want to reconcile. But take full blame for betraying their spouse and gutting them emotionally? NO WAY.

It sounds like they’re still feeling too entitled to be that humble.

Jode70
Jode70
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

I want to know why that is??? Is it just selfish entitlement… my ex ran away from his family with barely a glance back and yet that is all my fault!!??!! Still is my fault 3 years later that his kids have very little to do with him. I guess my mindset is will never be like that. Everything is put on me. I refuse now (although it has taken a couple of years to realise this is NOT on me) none of this was my chosing or my choice in anyway.

fiestypants
fiestypants
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

I read through a few pages on the TAM site. Far more support for CL than naysayers, I was impressed. Plenty came to her defense and flat out said that the ones with issues (liked the one CL called out) are the ones that haven’t come to grips with what they did.

Chumpalicious
Chumpalicious
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

“Oh, sure, make me the Bad Guy”. I heard that a lot.

Looking back, I think that’s the result of OW brainwashing, positively reinforced with every orgasm.

My ex’s four sisters and his schmoopie were all OK with a middle aged, supposedly respectable man blowing up his marriage and having a kid out of wedlock, because I WAS THE BAD GUY. I was this, I was that, I did this, I didn’t do that, man, they sure were experts in me, and how I should be dealt with. It made the divorce all about destroying me, and not getting free to be with his tru wuv. That was the big tell.

This is the level of intellectual introspection that goes on, I’m positively sure of it:

http://soulmateshmoopies.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/part-1/

Jodezter
Jodezter
9 years ago
Reply to  Chumpalicious

Holy shit! It’s funny cos it’s true! The pathetic narcs in my life tried to convince everyone that I was batshit crazy. Even the police. I held my shit together which just didn’t play into their plan, so I’m sure it was all my fault because…”insert random illogical shit here”.
I needed this laugh today so thank you.
My scenario would need all STBXH’s family standing around them nodding their heads sagely at the wisdom of cheater and OW.
My ex-MIL tried to convince the cops I was a danger and they should take my kids. That didn’t work. They couldn’t turn me into the bad guy so now she’s trying to put a restraining order on my Dad!! Is the narcissism genetic??!

FeralBlue
FeralBlue
9 years ago
Reply to  Chumpalicious

Oh my. That had me laughing so hard I was crying! Not sure if it was the dialog or tye almost deadpan delivery of said dialog, but wow, I needed that laugh!

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Chumpalicious

Sure. And why wouldn’t the one who was cheating on the marriage vows be the bad guy? That’s the whole mindfuckery the Jackass is still peddling. He’s “not that kind of guy.” He’s “different that the other men” I have known. Lie, deny, lie, deny, gaslight, add mindfuckery. Blah blah. But when he smirks, he gives the game away; that smirk shows he’s convinced he is superior to me, he knows things I don’t know, he’s got it all under control. That smirk shows he knows what he is, a liar and a cheat and a guy who broke every promise and betrayed me in a cruel way–and he’s just fine with that.

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

I hear you LJ. That all knowing Smirk. You see it and you know they think their ahead of the game. They don’t care who is getting hurt or if their actions are appropriate. I see it now and it leaves me feeling cold. They are cruel and calous and that smirk screams ” I DON’T GIVE A SHIT”

Kelly
Kelly
9 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

Oh I know that smirk too, LAJ. While I stumbled around the house speechless and in tears on D-Day, my ex had that same nasty superior smirk on his face, it was incredible.

But now, two 1/2 years later, with my romantic life going on, my children and I doing better than ever emotionally and financially, our kids not speaking to him, his self-employment as a “consultant” failing to take off, and his being faced with the prospect of being forced to marry one of his AP’s for financial reasons and because if he doesn’t do so soon she will boil the bunnies, I think that my ex’s smirk has been finally and most wonderfully wiped off his face.

Odd, now I feel a smirk coming on 🙂

Lovebeingachump
Lovebeingachump
9 years ago
Reply to  Chumpalicious

OMG that is about the funniest thing I have seen and I’m pretty sure that conversation happened

lale
lale
9 years ago
Reply to  Chumpalicious

LOL, that is perfect.

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Chumpalicious

LOL! Hilarious!

You know, I WASN’T batsh*t crazy…until I found out about them.

Wow33
Wow33
9 years ago
Reply to  Chumpalicious

Chumpalucious I laughed so hard!!! It made my morning, I am still grinning lol.
Boy it’s spot on and still struggle about him saying I was not a good homemaker and I don’t cook very often!! it blows my mind the lies and justification he gave for reason he was not happy in our marriage.

FeralBlue
FeralBlue
9 years ago
Reply to  Wow33

Mine always expected the house to be clean when he got home…so after 10hr days in a factory myself, I was the little homemaker too. Only I didn’t do it good enough. House was never clean enough, so he’d come through behind me re-cleaning everything while telling me how I just didn’t clean like his mother did. I also didn’t cook like his mother could. *eye roll*

After enough time and bitching, I gave up cleaning and cooking after work as he’d just redo it and complain about dinner. Aha! Now I was the lazy bitch who wouldn’t lift a finger around the house while he paid all the bills. (Apparently my paycheck was just extra spending cash…that somehow ended up being used to pay bills after he spent his on whatever or was “jipped” on his check, again.. ) *Snort*

After DDay it was all “Yeah but she cooks me a fantastic dinner, asks me how my day was and IS ACTUALLY INTERESTED in what I have to say.” If you’re not screaming at her, after her full day of work, about the cleaning and the cooking it’s much easier for her to ask and listen.

And if anyone asked how much of the housework he did on his own during the winter (as he only worked during the summer and that was his excuse for not cleaning during those 4 months) it turned into “You have no idea what it’s like to not have work. She (me) doesn’t understand either. It’s horrible! (he made as much in unemployment wages a week as I did working full time…not that I saw any of it) *face/desk*

Chumpalicious
Chumpalicious
9 years ago
Reply to  Wow33

I know, right, Wow? I wasn’t the best housekeeper in the world, but I did fold his underwear! Including the boxers he inherited from his brother-in-law when he died.

That’s right. My ex wore a dead man’s underwear. In some twisted way I’m sure he thought he was honoring him. What the ex sister-in-law thought by giving them to him I can’t even imagine.

Lania
Lania
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

To do something which is the epitome of selfish and fucktarded sure as hell does make you a bad person, no matter what the justification otherwise. She sure as hell wasn’t thinking of her husband when she was fucking OM was she?
That woman disgusts me – every post she makes on that site is full of “I, I, I” all the damn time, as well as her classic non-apology apology. If thats not a textbook NPD, I don’t know what is.
Wouldn’t be surprised if her husband was in false R and she was underground with OM again – at all.

Lania
Lania
9 years ago
Reply to  Lania

Also, would like to add – well played on calling her out, CL!
The “I, I, I” thing is almost comical now – if it wasn’t so disgustingly pathological.

Babushka
Babushka
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I will never, ever, in a million years, understand the mind set of these people . They’re not bad when they’re having an affair, they’re not bad after the affair – when EXACTLY does the badness come into play??? What level of denial does one have to be in to actually believe this crap?

I’ll never forget my own brush with this “I’m a good person” bullshit – and it wasn’t from my X – it was from one of the mom’s in my kid’s elementary school. We were having coffee one morning together, and I was smack dab in the middle of dealing with one of my then-husband’s affairs. She knew this – everyone in our little group of moms did – and since we were alone, I guess she figured it would be a good time for her to come clean and admit that she had her own affair just a few months prior. To my horror, she regurgitated the whole disgusting story, ending with – you guessed it – “Just because a person has an affair, doesn’t make them a bad person.” I sat there stunned for a few minutes, not knowing if the coffee I was holding was going to stay in my hands or be poured in the lap of this person…this BAD person.

I composed myself, put a $5 on the table and told her that unfortunately, I believed otherwise. Then I left. I avoided this babe like the plague for the rest of the term.

These people ARE BAD PEOPLE. They may try to sugar-coat it, but the facts shine through one way or another. The only ones who believe that they aren’t bad are those who have done the same crap.

Sometimes, I think we should bring back public shaming.

GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
9 years ago
Reply to  Babushka

Wow, you handled that beautifully. Kudos! I’m not sure I would have had the guts to call her out the way you did, then walk away.

Twistedheart
Twistedheart
9 years ago
Reply to  Babushka

These “people” live by a different set of rules and those set of rules are ALWAYS in their favor. You cannot win against them. After 4 years of dealing with this shit I truly believe they ALL share an extreme personality disorder. There is no other explanation to the way they view themselves and the way hey view and treat others who don’t share their rule set. But they ARE good people…..LMFAO

Miss Sunshine
Miss Sunshine
9 years ago
Reply to  Babushka

This bad person did a bad thing and then picked a very bad and selfish time to tell you about it, hoping you would swallow any bad feelings you had about her. You see, she HATES that the group sympathized with the chump in your case. She, being a coward, didn’t have the guts to stand up to the group and tell them what she did–no, she smelled you for a chump and figured she’d dump her shit in YOUR coffee, and that you’d drink it–you’re a KNOWN chump, after all. She figured, “Me: alpha, you: chump.” And you, I’d like to think thanks to Chump Lady and the Chumpster Nation, has a fresh and evolved perspective. So you stood up, figuratively and literally, and refused to return the volley.

WELL FUCKING DONE!!!

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  Babushka

That sucked, Babushka, in the middle of your own agony like that. I think you handled it extremely well.

Twistedheart
Twistedheart
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Chump lady, I get the same vibe from them. They’re all always so defensive about anything they think is against them. In my mind with that sort of attitude, that means to me that in reality they are only sorry for getting caught. Definitely NOT sorry for what they did. As far as I can tell, about everyone of the waywards that post on TAM are still in that denial/fog. But thankfully most of us over there can sniff them out a mile away, no matter how “offended” they get. I mean because that’s what being a chump is all about. We can sniff out your bullshit from a mile away! Now, that is.

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

If you ever get the chance to go back and read that woman’s story (that EI drone), you will see that she is very adept at charming people( particularly the men) on that site and that she flirts and preens a fair amount.
According to her, her husband had low Tand refused affection for years, but ,he has since gotten therapy and they are now fucking all the time.
You can read between the lines with this woman’s story. She has the site convinced that she was , somewhat, justified in her cheating. She is good at turning the word salad phrase and she used to have her avatar with a picture of herself with a cute little hairdo and an impish smile. Very much designed to attract the weaker make members.
She reeks of NPD or HPD , IMO.
Notice how, when called out on the huge mistake and the defamatory stuff she posted about you and your husband , CL ( I consider being called a divorce lawyer, libel per se), she merely glossed over her apology, giving a perfunctory little allusion to it as a mere mistake. In fact, she had tried to use these misrepresentations about your H and you to bolster her criticism that you were just money hungry conspirators.
Yet, when her glaring mistake was pointed out, she just continued the criticism and acted as if it was no big deal.
I cannot tell you how much this woman reminds me of my first wife, a glib, articulate, word salad pro, who was pretty good looking and could garner allies with ease. She could charm people , just like this EI person, but if you really stopped to look at her behaviors(multiple affairs during the marriage, an OW to a married asshole father before our marriage, drug and alcohol abuse etc) you could see what a disordered asshole she is.
But, men in particular, when faced with her smile and double D’s, jsut glossed over her past. Women , at least the non-groupie, non-new age types, were much quicker to figure her out.
You will not see too many of the women on TAM defending EI, for a reason.

Manwithnoname
Manwithnoname
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

The moderator closed down the thread (truth is too painful for some people I guess) The level of viciousness towards Chump Lady was disgusting. EI starts with the personal attacks and then claims victim status when she is on the receiving end of return fire. She really is quite “reformed” cheater.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

I work with a woman like this. She is very dangerous.

GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Yep, Arnold hit the nail on the head. You can smell the disorder right through the computer screen. Just another narc getting her daily dose of kibbles from supposedly reformed cheaters. Narcs really don’t care WHO gives them kibble, or what the kibble is made of, as long as they get their supply. Worse than a junkie jonesing for a heroin fix.

Freeatlast
Freeatlast
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Exactly Arnold. I am a member on TAM , back from my days of trying to save my marriage with a cheater, LOL. Then I found CL from there actually and eureka! The betrayed fog was lifted! She’s mad because CL sees right through her. I read this member’s massive thread with her husband posting in the CWI section, and she was not a bit sorry at first, and after a year had eventually come around to, ok she was wrong, but they BOTH , had problems (Blameshift! Blameshift!) She’s good, real good, at the whole it takes two to have an affair, and it’s complicated, gimme a break!

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  Freeatlast

Yes, Freeatlast. This woman should be the poster child for NPD and the ability to manipulate. I bet she is formidable, in person, and if she could get someone in front of the right audience, she could make him/her look very bad.
I’ve become quite familiar with the persuasiveness and seductiveness of the practiced NPD. They really know ,both instinctively and through years of practice, how to play to an audience. One is best advised, unless very skilled as well, not to engage with them when they try to perform in front of others.
EI plays on being something of a coquette, the clever little banter and compliments to the men there; the avatar with her impish, sly little grin with her head tossed etc.
It is pretty obvious stuff , if you know something about PDs.

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

BTW, CL handled her well. A little too much intellectual candlepower for EI and imperviousness to EI’s charm.
Notice how EI resorted to the old “taking my ball and going home” tactic to try to get posters to rise to her defense?

Freeatlast
Freeatlast
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Yes, that was pretty funny. CL did great! She didn’t insult her , just stated she had her facts wrong. She (EI) seems to now get her kibbles by being of service to other cheaters and helping them on their “journey” and help THEM heal. She talks a lot about HER healing. Um…. what about your husband, you know… the one YOU betrayed. TAM is just her current supply , for now.

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

So what does constitute as bad these days because clearly I understand their justification.

namedforvera
namedforvera
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

Yeah they’re bad. I mean, how do you define bad people”Answer: people who do bad things…I mean how else? I’ve mentioned before the SLAA meetings where this came up, and I told my Ex (who to his credit did not buy the, “no, we’re not bad we just did bad things” line). “Where do you draw the line at enough badness? Does it have to be Pol Pot level of badness? Zodiac Murderer? Or is just shitting on, and wrecking the lives of the people who love and trust you the most, enough to make you a “bad person”??? (the alternative being “good people who did bad things” blech).

He said that the folks in the group could not comprehend that level of philosophical nuance.

Two further points: one of the other cheater lists on that site (in the comments) listed my Ex’s first reason , “I was already not married to you, in my mind.” WTF? But I’m strangely relieved to know that other people have heard this crap.

Also, my Ex seems to have actually been devastated by what he did. Not that I would take him back…or even talk to him, in 10,000 years (unless I need to talk to him). But he admits that he fucked up; he lost the best thing he ever had; he was an asshole, yadda yadda. Still didn’t change the behavior though, and he’s been know to lie, since 😉 Summary: not as bad as some, still a cheaterpants, and someone to stay away from.

Gaby
Gaby
9 years ago
Reply to  namedforvera

namedforeva, my stbx said the same!!!! “I am already divorced in my mind”. Wow. I am shocked and somehow relieved as I keep reading these posts to realize the cheaters say the same stupid nonsense excuses again and again. And here I was thinking my ex was a piece of art. He is as common as any other sick cheater.

namedforvera
namedforvera
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Alas, le sigh. Many do not. Oh! Hollow, hollow, hollow! (obligatory Gilbert Sullivan ref. I’ll bet we could really mine the shit out of Patience, whose anti-hero is a primo Narc. ) heh. (incidentally, calomel is chloride of mercury and a common, though poisonous, 19th century medicine… it killed people, often.)

G&S:

“It is the wail of the poet’s heart on discovering that everything is commonplace. To understand it, cling passionately to one another and think of faint lilies.

“OH, HOLLOW! HOLLOW! HOLLOW!”

What time the poet hath hymned
The writhing maid, lithe-limbed,
Quivering on amaranthine asphodel,
How can he paint her woes,
Knowing, as well he knows,
That all can be set right with calomel?

When from the poet’s plinth
The amorous colocynth
Yearns for the aloe, faint with rapturous thrills,
How can he hymn their throes
Knowing, as well he knows,
That they are only uncompounded pills?

Is it, and can it be,
Nature hath this decree,
Nothing poetic in the world shall dwell?
Or that in all her works
Something poetic lurks,
Even in colocynth and calomel?
I cannot tell.

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Of course they’re not bad people! They couldn’t live with themselves if they were…

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

No their not Bad, they are down right horrific and they will destroy anyone who get in their way.

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago

clearly I don’t understand their justification.

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

My XH told me it was because I didn’t pay enough attention to him, that I paid more attention to the kids. They were 9, 7, and 4 when he began the affair, and I had just started being able to sleep through the night again after nearly a decade of not doing so.

He refused to get up with them, couldn’t be bothered with school runs, and generally left 95% of the parenting to me. But it was MY fault that he felt lonely, that I couldn’t do all the child care AND still make him feel like a prince.

So if I wasn’t paying any attention to him, how come my work load went WAY down when he left? Yeah, the KIDS were taking all my time. Uh-huh…

blue
blue
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

Red, your XH sounds like mine. I actually get more sleep now that he’s gone, as during the pick-me-dance I was spending all this extra time and energy trying to cater to his “needs,” while working a full-time job and taking care of two young children (one who was only 6 months old).

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  blue

Is there a bigger sign of narcissism than a man being jealous of the attention his children receive from their mother?

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

I’d say a cheating wife passing her affair partner’s kid off as her husband ranks right up there.

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

LaJ, I know of cheating narcissist whose 14 year old son spent most of his summer break painting an amazing scene in the breakfast nook. I don’t know what it looked like, only that it was detailed and awe-inspiring.

The cheater owned a company and had a business soiree at their home in early September. All of his clients went on and on about how beautiful the breakfast nook looked and how talented his son was.

So what did the cheater do? Accept the the thanks? Pat his boy on a the back for a job well done?

Hell, no!

He had painters in the next day to paint over all if. NO ONE was allowed to get more attention than the cheater, particularly in his own house.

Sadly, XH is pretty much the same. If the kids do anything of merit, it’s because their HIS children, not because they are smart or have talent. That’s why we never share any of their accomplishments with him anymore…

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

what is wrong with these twisted jerks. Red, Kelly, LJ life is strangerthan fiction.
I thought is was just my STBX that had a major issue with his kids, omg for the last three years I have been watching this bizarre jelouse attitude come out in my STBX. Our son is a very good sports man and has excelled in his sport of choice. Soccer- STBX never cared about sons sports when he was younger couldn’t care if his son even played sport. But as our son got older and excelled all of a sudden STBX is taking up the sport. and he does lessons on how to umpire, but son is still improving and many comment on his ability even bagging STBX as they question where sons skill came from. X is clearly not a sportsman. So STBX ups his game by joining the commity and maning the BBQ (hes such a great guy) Son gets picked for a national team X has a mantrum as he too wants a team jacket. Sorry buddy your the parent of the player NOT the player. Sons attitude towards his father has decintergrated over this time and son would often remark “dad always makes everything about him. Narc Narc Narc but added with his other crap I suspect posible Borderline. Kelly I am so glad joy when the dust settles.

Rally Squirrel
Rally Squirrel
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

Oh, Red. That is a heartbreaking story. That poor kid. Years of therapy in his future, I expect.

Kelly
Kelly
9 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

My ex once said to me about our youngest, son 14– “HE’S your boyfriend!” Said in an angry, complaining and somewhat bitter voice.

Now mInd you, unbeknownst to me, ex had been cheating on me for literally decades with at least two women, but was jealous of the love for and affection I showed to our own son (one who incidentally looked and acted the most like my ex), and who was then 11 years old.

Sick sick losers.

ElectricTulip
ElectricTulip
9 years ago

They sound like offenders who cannot admit it was really a crime. No probation for you sonny boy/girl! Unless you ‘get it’ you will carry on saying ‘nice people rob banks and steal glittery jewelry’ and then what’s to stop you doing it again? Eh, Pink Panther? Of course their recidivism will be caused by the exploitation of selfish people by international capitalism and a poor exchange rate.

‘I know how bad I feel about the way I neglected my wife and failed to be there for her during my major depression.’ You dreadful person. How could you?

ThatGirl
ThatGirl
9 years ago
Reply to  ElectricTulip

Exactly!

That’s why I will never knowingly date a cheater. I’ve read those pro marriage sites full of “remorseful” waywards. And mostly what I’ve seen them do is get better at justifying and blameshifting. They just use more subtle terms and pick more acceptable blameshift targets for their “broken” selves, like their FOO.

And eventually their BS or the WS themselves come back after a long time of “successful” R to admit a “slip up” or a new affair or some other equally destructive wayward behavior.

Cheaters are selfish and selfish people do not make good spouses. Probably most of these people shouldn’t be married to anyone because they wouldn’t know how to be part of a team if the instructions were printed on their forehead.

Baci
Baci
9 years ago

FUNNY FUNNY FUNNY

For some bazaar reason I went on TAM yesterday for the first time in many months and read this stuff about Chumplady. Wow I thought ,she is kicking some arse. What a poor deranged woman that thing called a writer is. She made these outrageous unfounded accusations against CL. Desperate attempts to be little.

As for cheaters, how I wish to place them in the Supreme Court. I’ll settle for Judge Judy just for a little bit of justice.

Groceries thinks she’s done nothing wrong. OMG the entitlement. She thinks her shirt doesn’t smell. What a perfect fantasy she and chainsaw man have. Just the two of the drowning in their own splendour.

Oh the cheaters love being victims. What they don’t realise is that they are victims forever. Trapped. Shamed. Guilty.

A Splendid prison sentence.

Pass me a tissue

P.F
P.F
9 years ago

Poor widdle cheaters.

Being all broken and needing a hug. They’re so sad and the only thing that helped them feel less broken was the unicorn affair partner.

In a hotel room, where cheaters meet to soothe their brokenness, is a hotel room smelling fresh of unicorn farts. Unicorn farts smell like roses and the ceiling is transformed into a rainbow. Every kiss is like candy and that blow job is just like a sucking on a fruity lollipop. It’s all about hugging. Two lying individuals, one who claims to be “working late” and the other who claims to “running an errand”.

Hugs are addictive.

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  P.F

P.F you are hilarious!

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

I love this!

Maybe we can give them all Care Bears for sunshiney hugs, and they can turn their frown upside down!

Kelly
Kelly
9 years ago

Hahahahah, LOVE this CITS!

P.F
P.F
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Yeah…only bad people make cheaters feel bad. Cheaters are all about feeling good, you know…..because they’re all broken and stuff, being broken and stuff is not being bad.

It’s like I robbed a bank, cause I felt broken and stuff. It wasn’t about the money, I just wanted the bank teller to give me hug,

Babushka
Babushka
9 years ago
Reply to  P.F

P.F. that’s perfectly put!

Can’t stop laughing at the visual!

😀

Rosie Boa
Rosie Boa
9 years ago
Reply to  P.F

Lol, PF!

Full-Steam-Ahead
Full-Steam-Ahead
9 years ago

Of course the cheater is broken. However, ignoring that fact and spackling over it does not address the problem. As long as they locate the problem outside of themselves (cheaters, that is), there’s no real hope for reform/change. They don’t have the power to change because they given it to external forces (e.g. my depression, the bad marriage, etc., etc., etc.).

A lesson I learned in high school football during the day after the game, you own your choices. It wasn’t fun watching your mistakes on film in front of the team, but it was how we learned. Ignoring those mistakes and blameshifting by cheaters is just them trying to avoid adulthood at the chump’s cost. Reformed cheaters? I doubt it from what CL has shared here.

Full-Steam-Ahead
Full-Steam-Ahead
9 years ago

Choices and Character. Can someone be ” bad! Bad! Bad!”? (Side note: can you spot the her playing the martyr here?)

What’s the problem with labeling someone as bad when they are bad? Do we have this problem with rapists who can not for their victims but blame them? Do we have this problem for murderers who blame society for their misdeeds and coldly regard the pain of the families they’ve destroyed by their crime?

Character is demonstrated over time. I agree that one choice is not enough to make this assessment. How does the cheater respond to being caught? Does she own her bad choice(s) and the incredible pain they have caused her chump? Or does she blame-shift?

We all hurt people and make bad choices. It is what we do after we make those bad choices that reveals our character. Do we care about those we have hurt? Or do we go into image control?

I hear a lot of image control going on with this critic. THAT is a sign of bad character in my book. That’s not to say she’s beyond redemption but character is something that is hard to change.

On a positive note, I do know of someone who admittedly destroyed his first marriage through his bad choices. He owned that and told me that he had to take a long, hard look in the mirror in the end to get himself fixed. I say that to make the point that people can change from “bad” people to decent folk. But you don’t get there through blameshifting onto your chump!

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Since the cheater cheated on his/her spouse, then the SPOUSE must be a ‘bad’ spouse. But since the innocent spouse didn’t cheat on the cheater, then the cheater must be a ‘good’ spouse.

At least, that’s how the cheater sees the situation

G.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

Wait . . . I think I get it. If a tree falls down in the forest and nobody hears it, it doesn’t make a sound, but if my cheater chops down the tree and it lands on me, it’s my fault.

I get it now! Thank you!! 🙂

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Yes, Rumblekitty! You DEFINITELY got it! 🙂

Full-Steam-Ahead
Full-Steam-Ahead
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Choices and character. I have thought some more today about the critic playing the martyr by denying that she is ” bad! Bad! Bad!”

Personally, I am not into shaming people. I do not see that as really benefiting anyone. It is like play with a turd…all you get is dirty and stinky…to borrow an image from Martin Luther.

That said, choices over time reveal character. Would we have a problem calling a rapist a bad person if they showed no remorse for what the did and actually blamed their victim? Is a murderer a bad person if he kills people and cares less about the families he hurt but blames his actions on being broken? How about a physically abusive man? Does he get a pass as a good but broken person because he was abused as a child and she called him names?

We all make mistakes and hurt people. It’s what we do when we do this that matters and reveals our character. That said, I actually think some cheaters could be good people (maybe it’s my eternal optimism). But if there are good ones, they own their poor choices and take responsibility for the damage they have caused.

For me, it’s not so much the one act or multiple acts that’s the problem in my mind. It’s the demonstrated, coldblooded, selfish choices over time that tells me the content of someone’s character.

Are you “bad! BAD! BAD!”? I don’t know. But blameshifting is not a good way to demonstrate otherwise.

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago

Love how you put this, FullSteam!

Jodezter
Jodezter
9 years ago

“Choices over time reveal character”
I want to frame that and put it on my wall.
Not only does it help with trusting that they suck, but it’s a good sentiment for trusting new people.
Love it

Kelly
Kelly
9 years ago

Ok FullSteam, dare I say, that was damn near profound!

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago

I love this trope that cheaters go around with the heavy weight of remorse .

Are you fucking kidding me ?? Her remose did not come until after I caught her ass puuuuhlease !

And really they are busting your balls for making a living ?? Fucktards.

GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

Yeah, the part about cheaters and their “heavy weight of remorse” made me laugh. My ex certainly never felt one moment of remorse. In fact, what he felt was hatred towards me because my very existence was a constant reminder that he had done “bad things” in the eyes of normal people. I say in the eyes of normal people, because cheaters really don’t consider their own actions to be bad at all, but they ARE hugely concerned with their image, and they understand that being a lying cheater is something normal people consider unacceptable.

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

My STBX is so consumed with his image and because our church thought they could fix him and send him home they even advised him not to tell his mother. And he is living with her. He doesn’t want me telling people the truth he would prefer that I get on bord the his sanitized version of events as they paint him as being a good guy and me as being an unreasonble bitch. He is more upset about how the truth is making him look than actually being upset for doing something bad.

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
9 years ago
Reply to  GladIt'sOver

“My ex certainly never felt one moment of remorse. In fact, what he felt was hatred towards me because my very existence was a constant reminder that he had done “bad things” in the eyes of normal people”.

Yes! This is a major reason why some cheaters won’t even entertain the idea of reconciliation or come back to the chump if the affair blows up in their cheater faces.

Facing the chump on a daily basis would be a CONSTANT REMINDER of their own ‘badness’, and the cheater would find that reminder to be intolerable.

Chrissybob
Chrissybob
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

Exactly. My now ex had some remorse, AFTER getting caught but he’s done with that now and he’s happy dontcha know and so why can’t I move on – he has. That’s their thinking! Or if it’s not truly his thinking then he throws that up so she doesn’t have to continually admit he was horrible.

TimeHeals
TimeHeals
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

It’s just a suspicion, but I often think that when somebody levies wildly off-base accusations, it reveals more about them than it reveals about you.

In this case, the context of some of the more serious and false allegations would seem to be:

1. You husband is a “divorce lawyer”
2. This blog is a source of $$$$ big money for you.

Taken together, the implication is that you are profiting from promoting the idea that people dump cheaters.

This would seem to imply the M.O. of the post would be to promote the idea that one should not “dump the cheater”.

More importantly, the post ascribes a nefarious and hidden agenda.

Thinking about all of these things and putting them all together and assuming that the off-base allegations reveal something about the person who posted them, I come up with this:

1. The person posting has a hidden agenda (and probably normally has hidden agendas).

2. Part of their agenda is to promote the idea that chumps must reconcile with cheaters.

3. Part of their agenda is most likely fueled by a need to control the narrative, and hence the very personal attack (it struck a nerve, it must be killed).

TimeHeals
TimeHeals
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Yeah, I totally agree that controlling that particular narrative is about trying to produce that specific outcome: nobody must dump cheaters!

I just suspect a more general pathology. (need an ascii emoticon for “crazy” to end this sentence.)

For example, the bit about “My family would prefer… ” was basically invoking “family” like human shields (from criticism), and then stomping off (from the thread, I presume). That’s pretty obvious manipulative behavior. If I can’t control the conversation (determine exactly what ideas have merit, and here’s a hint, I have a compendium of which ideas have merit), then I will stomp off and indicate that having a discussion with you is harming my family, or … hold my breath or do whatever has worked for me since I was about 4 years old.

I’d be terribly surprised if that doesn’t carry over into all sorts of areas and isn’t necessarily about controlling specific outcomes unless being regarded as a sage oracle and final arbiter of all things having value is the specific outcome being sought 🙂

I could be wrong and may be “jumping the shark” a bit there, but I do suspect that this kind of behavior doesn’t exist in a bubble where only this one agenda and one desired outcome exist.

I think the short version of my suspicion is: entitled, narcissistic and manipulative person with totalitarian leanings.

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Frankly, CL, I think you SHOULD be making and selling information products, above and beyond your upcoming book. I spent hundreds (thousands?) on the reconciliation industry offerings, and it cost me 2+ years of heartache and pick me dancing.

Had you been around then with a $97 (or $197 or $297) product to tell me step-by-step how to get my head on straight, get my ducks in a row, and get that man out of my life, I could have saved a bundle on useless advice and been a lot farther along in the healing process and getting to “meh.”

How many people write and tell you that they spend hours going through your old posts? I say bundle it in one place, in a step-by-step fashion, and sell it – sell the shortcut. Not only would you be able to defray the cost of running this blog, you’d be able to recoup many of the expenses you incurred learning your sage advice in the school of hard knocks, like lawyers’ fees and moving expenses.

Just a thought…

Jode70
Jode70
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

Oh me too Red. I brought into the whole reconciliation crap. I poured hundreds of dollars into how to fix your marriage. Spackled, pick me danced for months and months. Yep Chump Lady would have certainly put my head on straight.

I so wish I had found this site 3 years ago (no make that 10 years ago :)) when my ex was having affairs all over the place. I splackled like crazy for years. The first moment I came onto this site, it was like somebody opening my eyes for a very long time. I suddenly thought, this is not me… Chump Lady you so totally rock 🙂

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

I read every word, every comment. It felt like a lifeline to me. So grateful for CL and all the people who have written.

TennisHack625
TennisHack625
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

You should hook up with the’Dummies’ series. ‘How to dump a cheater for dummies’

Moving Liquid
Moving Liquid
9 years ago
Reply to  TennisHack625

Good idea. Anyone who can get 400 comments per article can sell books.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I hope you are making a list of red flags. I started that after the post the other day and have a full page, so far.

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Just out of curiosity, CL, how do you think someone like one of my cheating XWs would react to having your book sent to her anonymously?
In particular, i would like to send it to my first XW ( we have been divorced for 18 years, now). For a while , after her second marriage ended and mine had, as well, she would, on occasion , ask me for a hug or ask to hold my hand and look into my eyes with crocodile tears, and say Arnold, I love you. I was always weirded out by it.
But, now she is a “certified spiritual counselor” at a CD recovery facility. She has tried to just bury what she did , serial infidelity, child abandonment etc.
I would love for her to read your book, as you are a woman and smarter than her. I bet she would , pretty much, talk about you in a fashion similar to that EI asshole from TAM.
I plan on buying several copies to give to some betrayed folks I know but would also like to send one to her.

Miss Sunshine
Miss Sunshine
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Her first instinct would be visceral: she’d feel threatened.

Then she’d move into her best coping skill: blame-shifting (Oh, Arnold, you need to move on! You’re so bitter!) and hand-waiving (I’ve moved on, I’m in a spiritually peaceful place.) All of which is total bullshit.

Never have I run into such bullshitters who wear the hypocritical cloak of “spirituality” as I have among cheaters and homewreckers, which only bolsters my understanding of most of the con-artist pedagogues in this world.

If you’re so grounded and insightful, I’ll figure that out quickly by how you live your life–by what you DO–not by what you say. Healthy people I admire do not have to tell me how admirable they are.

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  Miss Sunshine

I agree. I will still buy an extra couple copies, perhaps send one to her boyfriend.

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
9 years ago
Reply to  Miss Sunshine

Seriously Arnold, don’t waste the money. They are all the same. They never learn and they never will. You’d be better off buying 15 lottery tickets. You probably wouldn’t get anything out of that either but at least you’d have a day or two worth of fun fantasies.

Blameshifting, cowardly cheaters NEVER change their stripes. What a waste of space and oxygen!

GladIt'sOver
GladIt'sOver
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Arnold, my guess is she would claim that proved YOU were some sort of abusive, horrible person. She most certainly would not see herself as in the wrong. Morals and rules are for normal, little, boring people, don’t you know? Not for special, entitled, better people like your narc ex wives or my narc ex husband.

FLBright
FLBright
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Arnold – The only problem is (and you know this) they *still* won’t GET IT! They don’t get it, they’ve never “gotten it” they ain’t gonna get it now. Spend your money more wisely and send the copy to a poor chump who could/would actually benefit from it. Just my 2 cents 🙂

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Hopium is VERY expensive – and addictive as any drug. I fed it well, right up until I was served with divorce papers.

When I told a friend that I’d, “Fought and fought for that marriage,” her response pretty much said it all:

“Yes, Red, but you were the only one in the ring.”

You know when XH finally got rid of OW and started realizing the consequences of his actions? About 4 months after I found you and started working on “meh.”

Coincidence? Hardly…

SummerGirl
SummerGirl
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

“Yes, Red, but you were the only one in the ring”.
OMG. That totally hit home, when I read that. Your friend is brilliant.

Linda
Linda
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

I am looking forward to your book! Your honest approach to dealing with cheaters has helped me allow myself to face the facts. It is not that I am hopeless, it is that I am no longer swallowing hopium. At my age, I am learning to consider my actions before I do anything. Both your words and the input of my fellow chumps has helped me understand my situation. Keep it up!

Louise
Louise
9 years ago
Reply to  Linda

I can’t wait to read the book and also plan to buy copies for friends-and several young women I know who are in relationships with lots of red flags. Maybe a Chump Lady Christmas basket?

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

I don’t believe in burning literature but I would love to build a whopping big pile of all those books that claim if you follow its con tense you will have the happily ever after marriage and set it alight. No amount of hoping, wishing or even praying will prevent a cheater from cheating or create in them the ability to stop once the have started. Only those without a conscience cheat and once you don’t have one anything goes really.
I had our minister tell me the reason my husband cheated was because he did not read his bible daily.

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

And CL is telling the victim of a relationship to get out. SHE’S not telling the chump to get out because their spouse:

-lacks a sense of humour
-has poor hygiene
-is a lousy lay

Hmmm, wait a minute–is there some website out there that makes millions a months off people who tell themselves those (usually false) narratives? Because THAT would be unethical…

P.F
P.F
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

This cheater, who bad mouthed you CL, did what most cheaters do, they spew nonsense make uniformed statements and try to discredit someone who threatens their sparkly turd persona.

It’s a typical knee jerk narcissistic jab, to insult, make false accusations, belittle and smear someone who they feel is too close to the truth.

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

CL even if your hubby had an ad or link on here we could care less,,,,, the last time I checked this is AMERICA please feel free to make a lot cash to feed your family !! Plug a book its yours you own this site !!!!! ASS WIPES like that make my blood boil. Put them in your shoes they would be selling mug, thongs, shirts, summer retreats etc etc etc anything and everything that could branded would be branded. Fucking hypocrite !

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

CHUMP thongs, MEH Band-aids, blame-shifting deflection caps, Queen/King of Spackle work tees, chump charm bracelet with a different charm every month, first one being a sparkly unicorn charm of course :), and Overcome Your Codependency in Only Two Weeks kits, wow CL, you are really holding out on us.

I can’t wait to buy your book.

Fuck the entitled haters.

thensome
thensome
9 years ago

I checked out that thread CL.

What I observed was how indignant she got when she gets challenged. Gosh, she’s only trying to “help” us chumps out and if we can’t understand HER PAIN then, she needs to go elsewhere!

You know my cheater isn’t broken. He’s doing just fine thankyouverymuch. I’m sure he could “look” sorry if he needed to. I bet he could manufacture some tears, but real remorse – not a second of it.

So if she’s all bent out of shape because you call her on her shit, I say her input won’t be missed.

LiningUpDucks
LiningUpDucks
9 years ago
Reply to  thensome

Here’s what actually ‘broken’ people do – they realize their life is not going well and they change. They realize its not all about themselves. For spiritual people, they take direction from God or another higher power because they realize that they don’t have it all figured out on their own.

The serial cheaters that I know don’t do this. They don’t make lasting changes. And they certainly don’t have any intention of recognizing a higher power. They hate authority and continue to say with their actions “You’re not the boss of me!”

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago
Reply to  LiningUpDucks

Here’s what actually ‘broken’ people do – they realize their life is not going well and they change. They realize its not all about themselves. For spiritual people, they take direction from God or another higher power because they realize that they don’t have it all figured out on their own.

Amen LUD & you dont have to totally broken I was just cracked a lot to realize my life had become unmanageable & I would be totally broken if I did not stop and change & reach out for that help 🙂

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

And no I am not a cheater the booze never told me to cheat, it just told me to drink more, but who signs on for that shit & thats why I got sober many moons ago 😉

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

You are an inspiration, MichaelD!

I’ve been a bit broken myself but it didn’t cause me to cheat, lie, or steal either. Both my husband and I have major FOO issues(like most everyone I guess) but even when he wasn’t drinking he was always different than me about consequences. Almost like he either couldn’t be bothered to think of them or they never entered his mind in the first place in the way they do for me. He was always complaining about being “caught in the headlights” of life. Like any crisis or change catches him off guard.

I guess drinking was coping for him, but it made him miserable and miserable to be with. But he’s been “splendid” besides all that!

That’s what’s been crazy, seeing him be two seemingly different versions of himself. And he says, “well maybe alcohol didn’t make me do all those mean things but how can you explain how those behaviors disappeared when my drinking stopped?” And I’ve had other people say that alcohol fucks with your brain and makes you do bad stuff and act like someone you’re not. It’s hard when he’s nice to trust that he sucks. He’s seems genuinely changed, but it happened mighty fast, within 24 hours.

That’s what has gotten to me so I have to remind myself of the seemingly small flags there were during his nondrinking years. It sometimes seems like none of that bad stuff ever really happened. But I think that’s his game plan though. Ugh. It’s a bit more complicated to get untangled from someone like that when finances are tight and there are young children involved who don’t understand. I initially stayed to prevent them from having to endure drunken visitation with him.

All of this has gotten me to work on myself and hearing the people on here and all that they’ve overcome has been so uplifting.

Sorry for being longwinded about this and getting off topic.

Congratulations on your accomplishments and thanks for sharing your insight.

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

No prob hawk, I understand. Booze & drugs really do steal the persons heart mind & soul. It robs you of any rational thinking or living. All you want is that next drink or fix. Its sick sick sick. Your life becomes unmanageable money is tight there are fights kids are afraid lots of yelling lying bad mornings just a God awful way of life. A drunk FEARS change and really fears life more so they drink.

To quote you,,
I guess drinking was coping for him, but it made him miserable and miserable to be with and

“well maybe alcohol didn’t make me do all those mean things
He is in DENIAL Hawk & does not think he has a drinking problem.

It sounds like he is drinking to forget,,,, to erase,,,,to sleep,,, to mask his feelings and yes he changes into that angry pissed off monster you speak of. And YES THE BOOZE AND HIS DISEASE ARE TO BLAME. It is a family disease that affects all of you.

You cant control the disease and the best thing you can do is push him to get help,,,, and for YOU to take care of YOU & the kids.
Hang in there I wish nothing but the best to you & your family.
Sorry all for sounding like I am preaching.

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

Dat he could have a mental illness, I didn’t and I don’t, I am a alcohlic and if I drink I become a mental and soulless man. I was born with the I love to drink gene meaning my dad grandfather etc etc loved to drink also. It’s what they did. Mental? Maybe a little lol. It’s a disease Dat and once you wrap your brain around that it becomes easier to come to terms with and accept. He blows up because he is in denial. You have to get sober first before you work on the other shit, if not it will not work.

Love man that sucks & it hurts he chose being high over your marriage and yup I see it everyday,,, you are soo strong to get out of that ,,,be proud of yourself . Since you don’t say what pills I will take a guess it’s prob perks or Oxys. Right now they go for about $ 40 to 50 bucks a pop so yea that’s where his cash went & to the bar. I hope he finds help. He lost you and if he doesn’t get help it will kill him.

Hawk read the AA big book it’s my bible 😉 I hear ya he might have bottomed out he’s just a sober dude. Me I want to feel life and have a plan when I get that feeling that I want to drink again I know what 1 drink will lead me to so I work at being sober. It makes my smile that much bigger from the inside out 🙂

Have a good night all 🙂

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

Datdamwuf, You have a strong point about mental illness. I have been leaning toward that theory mainly because even when he wasn’t drinking he had/has a reluctance to dig deep and work on steps to fix himself. Even now, for instance, he will read websites, etc. but won’t go to meetings or get a sponsor because he said that the desire to ever drink is gone from him. I get the feeling he’s saying he doesn’t need that support. That strikes me as a red flag because a) he went seven years that I know of where he didn’t drink, and yes I know for a fact he didn’t because I could account for every cent and he wasn’t gone anywhere I didn’t know about and couldn’t verify. Not because of trust issues but because that’s the way circumstances were back then and b) to hit what he says was his rock bottom and to deal with the remorse, etc. he appears to have, it seems odd he wouldn’t need to have support to work through any of the shit his alcoholism caused him, not to mention us who he appears to truly love and regret hurting.

I mean, I’ve been getting support several places, here for instance, because of everything I’ve been dealing with so it would seem he would need help for himself.

Also, the one counselor we both went to is convinced he has seen the error of his ways and is on the right track. Another therapist said some people manage to do it on their own and he seems genuine.

But somehow I am not thoroughly convinced. For one thing, he was drinking the very night before he came back and gave it all up. So in less than 24 hours he ditched the howorker, porn, and alcohol for good?

I do know that the howorker was an alcoholic too and a huge enabler and he has never expressed the slightest feelings for her, but rather disdains her and blames her too for using his alcoholism to ensnare him.

The Lundy Bancroft book says that alcohol doesn’t cause abuse.

All I know is he is mostly great when he isn’t drinking but there were some red flags before too.

I think the bottom line is there is no safe way to stay with him to see if his change is real or not. That’s what being on here has helped me to see. Funny too how he was the one who filed for the divorce I am finishing but he now cries and says he never wanted it.

Ultimately, whatever his problems are, they have taken enough from me and I’d like some peace and order in my life.

Thanks for offering so much support.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

My ExH is not the cheater, but our marriage is over because of his drinking and probably abuse of prescription meds. He may or may not have cheated–who knows? He spent every weekend in his favorite bar. I have no idea what he was doing. I knew what I was getting into with him when I married him (hello, co-dependency) but I spent years in therapy working on my own FOO and PTSD and finally got to the point where I couldn’t live with the drinking. I still love him as a person, still wish him well, and will still be his friend, but he preferred drinking to his wife and marriage. I paid most of the expenses and I still have no idea where all his money went. Now that I am taking care of the whole place, there are so many things that were neglected. He’s such a kind, decent, funny, smart and handsome man. I loved him from the first time I saw him. But loving an active addict is a lonely, one-way street and I’m done with it. And MichaelD: you give me great hope that I’ll find a guy who is working as hard to be healthy as you are, as I am, as our fellow Chumps are.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  MichaelD

I don’t agree that alcoholism is to blame, I believe it’s a symptom of mental illness that is not being addressed. My ex played the “it’s the alcohol, I’ll stop” card many times, what he would not do is go to therapy and address his mental health issues. He did go when shit blew up but he didn’t think he had a problem, it was all for show. He is still using the alcohol as an excuse for his bad behavior, he will never work on the root problem, it’s too “hard” for him. I have great respect for you MichaelD, you recognized the void in you and found yourself. I think that is the only way an alcoholic ever can stop, when they stop blaming the bottle and realize they are using the bottle as another excuse.

LiningUpDucks
LiningUpDucks
9 years ago

“I find it highly suspect that the reason you can’t express displeasure with a cheater…is that they’re so sorry already. Isn’t this just a bit of mindfuckery to get chumps to shut up? And make the cheater the real victim here?”

This hits the nail on the head. Mindfuckery.

Plus, serial cheaters often think they’re very special snowflakes. Too special for all this contrition stuff.

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  LiningUpDucks

Special snowflakes, yep. They tend to get irritated and huffy when we remind them how nothing they did is essentially different or special from any other cheater. They aren’t reinventing anything but they sure seem to need to think they are.

Pathetic.

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  LiningUpDucks

“Look, look I’m hurting! See this stick??? I beat myself up with it EVERY DAY! How could you kick me when I’m already down????”

Check their stick–it’s Nerf.

Lyn
Lyn
9 years ago

Love it!

Kelly
Kelly
9 years ago

Oh hahahaha CITS- “check their stick, it’s Nerf!” Hilarious.

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago

Ha Ha Ha, Chump in the Sand, love this! We gotta appreciate their self-beatings with Nerf bats!

AtomicFireball
AtomicFireball
9 years ago

“But often the reason is something toxic in the marriage and that needs to be fixed.”

The “something toxic” in my marriage was my husband. I fixed that by making him my ex-husband. And he’s still using the “my mommy didn’t love me enough” bit. Gag!

PattyToo
PattyToo
9 years ago
Reply to  AtomicFireball

Yep. The ‘something toxic’ in my marriage, otherwise known as – that nagging feeling I had that I wasn’t really loved or respected, was my husband. And, his habit of soothing himself with whichever woman wandered into his radar, every time our life got a little tough or stressful! Right, he needed hugs. Well, gee, I could have used an actual partner, who would pull in the same direction (or at least stop destroying everything!).
Nope, he was over at the neighbor’s house, leaning his head on her chest, because he needed comfort (he actually told me this!).
What a fruitcake! And CL, you had me laughing so hard, I was crying, cheaters are so ridiculously funny!

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  PattyToo

How about all those lies they say to themselves vilifying you so that they feel entitled to cheat? I see skull and crossbones there…

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  AtomicFireball

The “something toxic” in my marriage was my husband.

Yes to this!

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

That is too funny.

Hypnagogic
Hypnagogic
9 years ago

CL- Haters always want to count other people’s money- it’s no ones business how much, or how little you financially profit from your blog. We appreciate you, and love how you empower people- simply because you can. Cheaters fear what they don’t understand- ‘strength in character’ doesn’t translate well in ‘Cheater ese’.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

CL, first of all, I hope some day you can benefit financially from the work you do, here and everywhere that you spread the word that cheating and betrayal is not a benign recreational hobby, a “victimless crime,” or an appropriate response to marital problems. People should be paid for their work, and as you say, blogging requires considerable laying of groundwork before any payoff can occur for the blogger. Yesterday, a colleague and I roughed out an idea that we hope will solve a problem for teachers and students. We kicked around ways to package it and decided for now to start with YouTube. Get it out there, see what happens, tweak things, learn, and most of all try to use what we know to help people. And while that won’t make us money, and the work you have done so far on this site has you in the red, of course, we are rich. We are rich. We take our best stuff and put it out there to share it. There’s Karma attached to that too. What we put out in the world–in your case a lifeline for people going through horrific emotional pain and life trauma–comes back. And what you do ripples out as Chumps tell other Chumps, as people read Huffington Post (how I found you), as people who can’t keep food down search the internet for help.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

“We are rich. We take our best stuff and put it out there to share it.” This is absolutely perfect and true, LAJ.

When I found this site, it was like HOME BASE for me. I met some really nice people on SI and a few of them I still privately email back and forth to catch up. (I’m meeting two later this year and really excited about that.) So, I’m grateful for that place too. But Chumplady is different in that it is more empowering. At least for my way of thinking.

Hey, I’m grateful to everybody and everything that helped me through this nightmare. It’s just this site was instrumental. I didn’t have to twist my brain into pretzels with what I read here. Everything made complete sense. 🙂

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I just ordered a “Welcome to the state of Meh” shirt. It should be here today. :). I’m contributing to your empire Tracy. 😉

I love you and this site and the posters here because I too, was looking for a place where I didn’t step in unicorn shit. I don’t want to hear about how the poor cheaters haz the sadz, or are broken, or how I have to eat part of the blame for his betrayal. Fuck that, fuck that message, and fuck the people who continually spew it. This is the only place where I read the truth.

For once, I’d like to hear a cheater say “I was a selfish person and I made a huge mistake entirely on my own . . . ” without adding a “but” on the end. Own your shit. Christ is that so fucking hard?!

Red
Red
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I reiterate, you SHOULD make money off of this. As I said above, I would GLADLY have paid to learn from your experience – it would have saved me a bundle.

During the height of the “pick me” dance, I spent $20K cash on a luxury car coming off a lease and gave it to my cheater. What’s the first thing he did? Drove it over to OW’s to show off. It still burns me up every time I think of it. Had I known then what you’ve taught me since, he would STILL have his POS truck and I would have the luxury car.

Just sayin’…

MichaelD
MichaelD
9 years ago
Reply to  Red

CL you have to ” Pimp” this site harder if you want ads lol !!!!

LiningUpDucks
LiningUpDucks
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Yes, it’s your message that pisses them off. You strip away the mindfuckery and call it like it is. And you lay out the cheater-playbook for all to see.

The RIC makes *tons* of money off its unicorn message. But I guess cheaters don’t mind that because the chump -spouse is the one writing the check for the quack therapist/marriage retreat/amazon binge.

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

“I wanted a community for strong people who left cheaters, or who were on the fence about it who needed encouragement.

Which I’m sure pisses off cheater”.

I’m sure it will piss off ANYONE who is supposedly pro-marriage, such as TAM. I really can’t see remaining married for the sake of being married.

It’s kind of like getting a driver’s license JUST to have something to put in your wallet. I mean, God forbid that you’d actually use it to DRIVE…

G.

LilyBart
LilyBart
9 years ago

Wait. Do you mean to tell me that bloggers don’t earn millions?

TimeHeals
TimeHeals
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I’m going to go out on a limb and say… unless you are going after the big class action suits, contract law probably pays best.

I imagine whoever is looking over multi-billion dollar mergers and acquisitions gets paid well (or as Christian Bale’s character in “American Psycho” called them “Murders and Executions”).

Babushka
Babushka
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

LMAO
😀

smart ass texan
smart ass texan
9 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Perhaps you should have your “high falutin atty husband” see about filing a slander lawsuit.

Opposite Spouse
Opposite Spouse
9 years ago

Since we’re dropping Seinfeld quotes, here’s one that seems to be the mantra for most cheating spouses: “Remember, it’s not a lie if you believe it.” George Costanza.

Sammie D
Sammie D
9 years ago

OMG , I love that quote. “remember it’s not a lie if you believe it”

My STBX is so wound up in the web of lies he has been telling himself for years that a few of as a certain he has lost contact with reality, which is pretty scary shit given his excuses for his 8 years of extra marital activity.

AnnieW56
AnnieW56
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

This must be the motto my XH lives by. He moved to some little town and has purchased a hardware store down there. There was an article written in the paper about it and when it was describing him they wrote that he is an “engineer”. Not unless he went to college in the last 4 years since we divorced. Although, when he first got together with the OW, he sent her an email telling her he was sent to college by one of his earlier employers and became an engineer. Evidently, he has told it so much he believes it.

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  AnnieW56

Maybe he has a Lionel Train set in his basement?

Hawk
Hawk
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

LOL, Arnold!

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
9 years ago
Reply to  Hawk

OMG, my ex once said to me that I told him this: “it’s not a lie if you believe it.” I was like WTF are you talking about? I. Never said any such thing. Now I know, he watched all the sitcoms and cartoons, apparently that’s how he navigates life.

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Engineering “facts” out of fiction?

AnnieW56
AnnieW56
9 years ago

That would have been the only engineering class that he would have passed. He must have really paid attention in that class.

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  Sammie D

I always like the Homer Simpson one (paraphrasing): ” I don’t mind when people don’t believe me when I am lying. But, it really upsets me when they don’t believe me when I am telling the truth.”
I actually see similar complaints from “reformed” cheaters when they are frustrated/mystified that their BS questions their ongoing integrity now.

nomar
nomar
9 years ago

It is a well known scientific FACT that a failure to receive the FDA approved daily minimum requirement of hugs and affectionate murmurings from one’s spouse increases by 100% a person’s chances of contracting Skimpy Hug Aggregate Go-to-bed-with-anyone Syndrome (“S.H.A.G.S.”). This disease (and it IS a disease which Chumplady has for too long viewed with disapproval and shame) is a serious problem for those who suffer with it. Symptoms include aimless wandering, boundless self-pity, and spontaneous erections prone to uncontrollable intercourse with any sad thing that’s available.

Remember, Chumps: Only YOU can prevent S.H.A.G.S.

Chump Princess
Chump Princess
9 years ago
Reply to  nomar

nomar,

You have clearly outdone yourself with this one – and that takes some doing!!! LOLOLOL!!!

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Women get erections?

Chump in the Sand
Chump in the Sand
9 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Yes we do–right up the whazoo! (Pssst–it’s how babies are made…)

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
9 years ago

Sometimes I get something called a “lady-boner”. It happens when I fix stuff on my own like the faucet or garage door. Or if I catch an awesome sale. 😉

Arnold
Arnold
9 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Pics, please.

P.F
P.F
9 years ago

Chump in the Sand

LMAO!!!

LiningUpDucks