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Give Up on “Closure”

ZombieclosureI got a really nice letter from a really nice reader “Chump Chap.” He wrote to me after he realized that he’d just gotten a non-apology apology from his cheating ex. But he didn’t realize it was a fake apology until later. And then it was GAH! She’s wasn’t sorry was she? Chumped again!

The non-apology apology is a whole separate post. What I wanted to write about was the grievous chumpy mistake Chump Chap committed — he sought out his cheater to ask her why.

It’s idiotic, but we all do this, Chump Chap. You aren’t alone wanting “closure” from your cheater.

Oh why oh why oh why did you do this to me? WHY?!

Logically, you direct this question to the person who fucked you over — the cheater.

Except it isn’t logical! They don’t have a good reason. And every reason they give you, I promise chumps, is going to piss you OFF.

“I dunno. Got bored I suppose.”

“He had a nice ass.”

It’s worse if they’ve spent any time on infidelity boards. Now they have a whole new vocabulary to mindfuck you with.

“I was broken from my FOO issues. It was the toxic shame borne of hand bell choir and that ugly sweater my aunt knit that my mother INSISTED I wear — I couldn’t bear my uncoolness, and I needed external validation. Lots and lots of validation. So I learned very early to lie to get what I wanted. (A Somalian refugee stole the sweater. I’m allergic to hand bells.) I guess I never stopped. Fucking those strangers on Craigslist was a coping mechanism. But I never stopped loving you, Chump Chap. I suppose a part of me will always love you. But I’m involved with Nigel now — and it’s complicated.”

Why would you stick your head in that blender?

Ask a cheater why they cheated, the worst of them are going to blame you. “I cheated because you’re fat” or “You weren’t meeting my needs.” Or they’re going to wax poetic about their affair partner. “What Tiffany and I have is real. God, she’s so good for me. Look, it’s all for the best! We’re both in better places now!”

Resist the urge for closure, chumps. Relationship autopsies do not bring relationships back to life. And thank God, because imagine the Walking Dead nightmare that would be. (Actually, anyone who has experienced false reconciliation has lived exactly that nightmare.) These things are better left DEAD.

Because when you ask your cheater why — especially after they are your ex — what you’re really trying to do is keep the relationship alive. You need sparkles. Gimme a hit on the crack pipe of hope. You want validation from this person that they Really Didn’t Mean It and have a very good reason for putting you through this hell. You want validation from the very person who just invalidated you. Was I so bad?

Look, cheaters cop to needing “closure” all the time. “I just have to meet her at that hotel in New Mexico… for closure. It just isn’t right to dump her with a no contact letter. What we had, well, I owe it to her to do it in person.” We know what closure means — it means they can’t quit the kibbles.

With chumps though — it’s like we can’t quit feeding the kibbles. Because seeking them out, demanding an answer, is kibbles to the cheater. We are reinforcing their centrality in our lives. It is the opposite of meh.

We may think we’re seeking closure to shame them, or demand accountability. They don’t see it that way. They see it as kibbles. “Isn’t that sweet? Chump can’t get over me. They’re so broken up. God, I’m fabulous. I’m sorry there isn’t enough of me to go around. Well really, I offered you a piece but you wanted the whole thing. Too bad, so sad.”

Closure doesn’t exist. Well, not in the sense that they’re going to give you a reason that will make the heavens part and confer enlightenment. You do the hard work to heal yourself over time and find acceptance. It’s probably never going to make sense to you why they betrayed you. If you’re a good person, it shouldn’t make sense.

Why did they cheat? Because they could. Because they gave themselves permission to do it. They didn’t care about how it would hurt you. Not enough.

Ouch. There’s your closure.

This column ran previously. (People, I just finished the FINAL EDITS on the book and my brain is FRIED.) Feel free to comment!

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  • “I couldn’t bear my uncoolness, and I needed external validation. Lots and lots of validation. So I learned very early to lie to get what I wanted.” – This is my cheater to a T.

    The reason he gave (not that I ever asked, but it came in the false apology letter) implied that it was my fault, nice touch.

    At the end of the day, this is all you need to know: “Because they gave themselves permission to do it. They didn’t care about how it would hurt you. Not enough.”

  • Needed this….especially today. Had it out with my attorney yesterday over the final draft….epic his lawyer conveniently left off items… I have been prepared for trial for 2 years. My attorney is like so what just sign this. I said no….. he said “sign or fire me” …. so I fired him.
    Maybe not the smartest thing to do….but I am over the bullshit of take my shit sandwich and eat it….its good for you. Not from my husband or from my attorneys. Attorney’s are notoriously narcissistic. I’ve had my fill.
    My stbx totally has blamed me….my weight gain…. for his cheating. Oh well I wish your bald head…beer gut…chipped front tooth would have been taken care of too….not to mention your empathy meter towards your own daughters. But hey….you’re happy with the new chic and her 3 sons who adore you…you go to all the football games…volunteer in the concession stand…. yet…your daughters senior year of band missed every single game and refused to walk her for senior recognition.
    Yup….I am a chump…for wanting an explanation as to why you are an asshole. I stupidly think it will somehow help me to understand why I allowed your bad behavior prior to Magical Migdalia entering your life.

    • Tracy, you are a Mighty Cbump! you deserve a better lawyer and…and you WILL find one.

      my lawyer also got tired of XH’s antics, and all the drama that trails behind. ugh. with any luck we will find a lawyer who was chumped too…as i face more Cluster B punishments and splitting from XH, i have decided to try to find one. most of the current punishment (mine changes…) is in the form of slandering me (to justify his cruelty) and trying to change the generous property settlement he agreed to years ago – when MOW was pressuring him to hurry up! get out of marriage! we will live happily ever after!

      apparently not, if they still need me as their hypotenuse. or whatever. i divorced him over 2 years ago. huh?? i thought that’s what they wanted!! which brings me full circle to today’s post about cheater logic – not sticking my head in that blender again 🙂

      related note – a main part of my current punishment from XH is about going NC. this really pisses off narcs. Bill Elliot’s book about Splitting addresses this but his solutions do not fit my situation. would like to hear if NC has backfired on other chumps too and how you handled it. will also post over on Forum.

      • Tracy, may life start looking up for you. I just fired my lawyers, too! Sick and tired of being figuratively screwed by lawyers and judges along with my STBX. (Nearly broke, too.) I hope to high heaven that my new lawyer will see me through this very long mini-series of Friday the 13th and Halloween combined. (I feel like the girl who escapes Freddy or Jason in one movie only to be slaughtered in the next.)

        And Chump Lady, you crack me up! You are DEAD ON!

    • Good for you for firing him! The bloodsucking bottom feeder lawyer has already made TONS of money off of you, and just wants this off his plate. What an ass. Please take out a full page add letting everybody know he’s an unethical divorce-chaser.

  • Oh my gosh….this is on point….
    Yea….my husband’s girlfriends husband told me she was good for that…. that was her signature move. She even texted me that I am.jealous I don’t know how to suck her man’s dick. I….. sure….as….hell….am not jealous.

      • Why did Mark Sanford use tax payer money to screw a woman in Argentina when he could have kept the money in SC by screwing a local whore? Oh wait, I remember now, he’s a politician and is entitled.

      • OMG I used the Bill Clinton analogy on DDay when confronting my cheater about his affair with ho-worker who reports to him. (BTW still no confession and only lies, lies, lies). He looked at me incredulously and asked, “Why would I jeopardize my job?!” “For the same reason Bill Clinton risked his presidency” was all I could think of to say at the time.

    • Maybe you should have texted her back on this one, “It’s not that I don’t know how, it’s that I prefer NOT to do that. It is tiresome that all he wants is something that requires no effort on his part, and I have many other, better, more enjoyable things to do with my time.”

      Really — you are probably better off not replying, Ignoring her barbs is not giving her any satisfaction at all. But I would be tempted, I have to admit. How low class is it to text a man’s ex wife with that kind of crappy information?

      You can comfort yourself with the knowledge that soon he will be finding another willing candidate, no matter what her “signature move” is. She just can’t be a whole lot of other partners. They are selfish and bored, and looking for the eternal ever changing dream sex slave porn girl. She doesn’t exist in the real world, but they never stop looking.

      • Must be a pretty lonely existence for a guy to just want a woman bobbin’ off his bits. Could be anybody down there even a yearling calf the act is so impersonal. I mean what kind of intimacy do you get where one person does a physically non-reciprocal act where the recipient doles out favours and money instead of genuine acts of affection. Sounds like a transaction in the oldest business on earth.

        Enjoy giving those bj’s OW. Cause you are so replaceable. And so very classy. And really trying to get somebody upset about something that is not even reciprocated. I might have been more upset if x was wholeheartedly and regularly providing entertainment for her.

        My apologies to guy chumps. I imagine there’s some flamingly idiotic crap that has been tossed your way about your bedroom habits from either your x or their OM.

        Classy doesn’t crow about sex act skills. Classy doesn’t broadcast boudoir activities. Classy doesn’t openly compete for another’s partner in such a verbally crude manner.

        I’m sorry! I forget that we are talking about liars and cheats.

        • so im stuck with the non classy gal. the one who humped on a chump for 1 day 3 times and had to write a letter how good the slurping of the kibble was. who the hell does that.

      • I just find it amusing and pathetic that her goal in life is to be the best at giving blow jobs. Isn’t that the actual definition of skank?

    • They aren’t called cumdumpsters for nothing. That’s what the affair partners are. Not really sure when being an easy whore became life’s greatest achievement.

  • Yeah, back in the day… I got things like “You keep leaving towels on the bathroom floor” and “we’re just not compatible”, and a bunch of other things that, frankly, were nuts.

    Ask 50 times, you could probably get 50 different answers depending on mood and external factors like the temperature and humidity.

    Closure doesn’t come from the person who did this to you. It comes from you creating a new life in which they are largely if not completely irrelevant, and it’s a lot easier for you to navigate forward if you stop looking in the rear-view-mirror as you move forward.

    • I don’t know the date of the post, but a false apology is anything that takes less than full responsibility for the cheating–throwing out your faults as justification, false equivalencies, “poor me” missives about how much it hurts them as much as us. All bullshit.

  • For most of them it’s sheer entitlement.
    Mine proved to me that his dick and his needs were more important than me, our children, and his career.

    Once I realized that he did everything he ever did because he chose to, there was no more trying to untangle the skein.

    I don’t care what excuses he might want to throw at me ( his tie was too tight and he had to think with his other head ? ).
    He sucks.

  • Why? Lack of character. It may come in a variety of deficient flavors but that is what caused the cheating. They either lacked the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing in keeping their vows or choosing divorce…or they lacked the will revealing a truly depraved heart. Either way, it is character that is causing the mess…not the chump. Ever.

    • Bingo. What the chump wants is some *situational* explanation for the cheater’s behavior: “He/she was stressed at work.” “I didn’t cook his/her favorite meal for 2 weeks and he/she was resentful.” “I bought her red roses for mother’s day even though I know she prefers yellow.” “He was distraught over the dent in his new sports car and seeking solace from howorker.” If it’s situational (and the chump is inclined to wreckonciliation), then we can FIX it!! We can make sure to ease his/her stresses! Cook that favorite meal! Buy yellow roses! Encourage safer driving and a lower deductible!

      But the truth is that the reason for cheating is *dispositional.* That is WHO they are; it is an inherent predilection toward entitlement, blameshifting, and poor impulse control. There is nothing a chump can do to stop that. As soon as we accept the dispositional attribution for cheating, that is when we can leave, move on, and stop trying to untangle the skein. It’s the beginning of healing.

      • DeadH gave me a lame list of my faults that were supposed to explain away his cheating. I answered with a long list of horrific deeds he was known to do frequently (although none of it ever made me cheat) and his response was “Do you know how tired I am when I get home? Skein of fuckedupness indeed.

          • That is an interesting question ! Apparently his “end of the day fatigue” justified familial abandonment and betrayal and my fatigue shouldnt affect my capacity to be a wonderful productive and compliant spouse and mother (mind you that my job included 12 hour night shifts in an ICU so I wasn’t just “tired” I was stuporous and to the limits of human endurance but I never used it as an excuse). Did I ever sign up for this?

            • I was thinking your ex might have been enjoying telling you to step up and take up the slack when he was “tired” from running around on you. No entitlement there.

        • Mine told me I didn’t fu-k him like I did when we were teenagers (married 36 years)! Then told me I was the worst mother, cook, housekeeper, he said I didn’t remove the plastic off our new homes doors?????etc.He told my son I was mentally unstable! He told me I was delusional to think he wrote me a good-bye Jane letter because there was no one waiting in the wings for him .. He just wanted freedom, all our assets, and home with NO LAYWERS!!! When his bowel twisted (God is there) I read his texted to his Verizon work whore ( when this is all over I will be with you to tell you how beautiful you are)! Yeah her other 2 husband thought so to Genius! Long story short we are divorced! He made out but life is great without him..I never felt so alive!

          • During our marriage, he told me very specifically to not touch certain clusters of his clothes, he wanted them cleaned and tended in a certain way and I was not to disturb them. He then went into the Marriage Counselor appt where he voiced his “Im divorcing her because she sucks” thing and he gave to example that I had not taken to the cleaners the very clothes he told me not to dare touch.

            Also laundry related…he once dropkicked a laundry basket across the house because I dared have it out where it could be seen… in the laundry room…on laundry day.

            During his monster mode his clean house tyranny got worse and worse…I kept the house cleaner and was freaking perfect. Just before BD, at Christmas, the whole house was perfect…I had done EVERYTHING (and started a new job a few weeks before) and he went to my office and decided my desk was messy (we didnt share a desk, they were on different floors) so he threw everything from my desk onto a pile on the floor. He was ass-basterd mean and that is how I remember him…assbastard mean.

            • On the topic of clothes, my dear ex-husband would secretly throw away clothes of mine he didn’t like. I guess he thought he should have veto rights over all my garments. We were backpacking in Europe and he kicked a pair of pants under the bed, one of the only pairs of pants I had! I didn’t find out until I started musing over what happened to them and he disclosed what he did. When I responded, surprised and upset, he laughed. Years later, he complained for months that he needed new jeans. Insisted we couldn’t afford it. In spite of this, I encouraged him to go shopping. Really, we could afford it, he was just a drama queen. It wasn’t until after he completely lost his marbles and I left that he proceeded to spend $1200 in three days on a new wardrobe. WTF?

              • Oh, the clothes thing. Mine would steal my clothes and give them to his little gf. Or just lend them, so what was clean suddenly had sweat and food stains. And I had tee shirts disappear without a trace that he swore he’d not seen, but that I found in his closet with ring around the collar when I was packing up to leave. And he suddenly began giving me slutwear for my birthday instead of the customary set of coasters. Not being a leopard or snakeskin print person, I left those lovely gestures behind.

  • Closure only happens when
    A) You’re dealing with a rational human
    B) There is anything left of the relationship to have closure with

    In most cases, neither one of those things apply.

  • My ex told me he cheated because he felt lonely because I sat in the lazy boy chair when we watched TV, instead of sitting on the couch with him. It bears mention that he bought me the chair for a Christmas present because sitting on our couch hurt my back. And it wasn’t like we watched a lot of TV. It was perhaps an hour or two a week. We didn’t even have cable TV. You can’t make this shit up.

    • But Carol if you wouldn’t have sat in the lazy boy that cheater bought you for Christmas that ALSO would have been reason to cheat! Poor baby would have been offended that you weren’t using the gift he gave you…

      • Yep.

        The lazy boy was part of my downfall too. If I took a five minute break and he “caught” me I got accused of doing nothing but sitting in “that chair” all day.

    • I was a horrible wife, we were incompatible and he had to cheat this last time because I didn’t sleep with my head on his chest like “we were girlfriend and boyfriend.”

    • LaZBoy excuse for cheating is literally the funniest thing I have heard – ever!

      I am sure it wasn;t funny at the time – but I’m glad the shear absurdity of this remark makes you chuckle now.

  • Just found out yesterday my XH(SA) is “with” a 40 yo….he is going to be 70 shortly. I suspect she is now living or certainly enjoying the beautiful retirement home we built and I never moved into. ( He got that in the settlement.). I took another hit with this info, but no crying. There are many moments (18 mo out DD and 1 year divorced…married 46 years) I want to talk to him and hear what he has to say….I went absolute NC, as did he. As is often said on here, it was a complete “Mind F***” for me. This the perfect discussion for me today, as I would like nothing better than to get some sense of “closure”.

    • Blown Away,
      I think when guys past retirement age go out and cheat, they are showing their fear of mortality. A sort of “is this all there is?” Sadly, they usually get dumped by the babe when the equipment stops working, and they realise too late that the trust lost in their long term marriage was the greatest asset they ever had. Have no doubt, he may never be able to explain it, but you can be sure he will regret it.

      Sort of like folks with anorexia, they don’t see their true image in the mirror…they still want to feel young and the attention of a younger person is gold to a narcissist since they see their own reflection in the eyes of others. He will be living in a euphoric fog for now, until he realises it’s actually a black mist.

      • They get dumped when the money runs out, but the cheaters are usually well aware of this. His happiness will be contingent on how many blow jobs she’s willing to give for the dollars she receives. Whores don’t tend to be very fair minded. I can see the karma bus from here.

      • You are exactly right. My X simply could not accept the fact of his aging. Oddly, so long as he was “attractive”, he was faithful, but as his looks faded, he became desperate to convince himself he was still in the game. It was strange. Granted, he always had a big ego, but it was more of a minor annoyance. Getting old infected his view of everything, including our marriage.

    • Yes, Blown Away, Marci is so right!!! Mine was a 37 year marriage…..blind sided by my EX’s “confusion”….. But funny how his “confusion” lead him to move in with his much younger co-worker 6 months later……and they think they are kidding everyone. Talk about euphoric fog!!!!

    • Old fools………Do they really believe someone 30 years younger has any interest other than monetary? So pathetic, but I hope she wipes him out.

      • KB22, my 63 year old ex has a 23 year old and he is absolutely convinced that she is with him for himself not the money he is providing. She comes from SE Asia, has 2 little boys and he is as happy as a pig in mud.

      • KB22…yes, what fools they both are! She is younger than our children! I can’t imagine how long this will last. Listen to this….he is a non-compliant diabetic and the doc has ORDERED HIM him to take his blood sugar levels on a daily basis. He has ED, has lost 6 teeth since DD, he’s overweight,and now has Plantar Faciitis and has difficulty walking. He is a recovering alcoholic, a porn addict, a gambler, addicted to ALL SPORTS ON TV ( can sit in that leather chair for HOURS)! He sees a CSAT for therapy after he blew his world to smithereens and attends SA meetings. ( I would love to share more of the story here, but this forum is just too public…just let me say this…if I called Dateline someone would be calling me back!) He also attends AA meetings….he is a busy guy. He told a friend that when he told “her”…his 40 yo his age she said “well, that’s fine. You sure don’t act it!” Our daughter IS FURIOUS AND said “Golddigger!” I just cannot believe my last chapter is THIS. As is said often on here, you can’t make this shit up.

        • Blown away, I can understand staying married to a man who has problems, but to sign up with one?? Really? And a lying cheater to boot.. The whores truly are delusional. Why would you start up with these people knowing what pieces of shit they are.? I wouldn’t have touched the cheater with a ten foot pole if I’d known the truth about him.

        • Blown Away, every chump on this blog has dodged a bullet but you have dodged a cannon ball. My ex is 63, his new squeeze is 23 and our daughter is 36 and our son is 33 and they accept their sperm donor’s new love and have pushed me out. Knowing what we all know now, we got away to safety !!! Thank god for that.

          • Oh Anita and Maree…my daughter is totally on it… The money. I’m certain the only thing he has revealed to that sweet young thing is his age. I have to add that he is a world class charmer, as long as you don’t know the back story. He sparkles so intensely, one could truly be blinded. When I read what I all wrote, I am crying again, for the umpteenth time. What a Fool and Chump I was. I did dodge a cannon ball…even though I am nearly 70. Divine intervention…I am comforted with that.

          • Oh thank you all.. I still so struggle with wanting to contact him. IT WAS MY WHOLE LIFE. Keep telling me he is NOT WORTH IT.

        • Blown Away

          At times I cry because of what he did to end our life together. Your description of your X reminds me just how much he repulses me. We should be celebrating the fact that we can write our own last chapter. Hope you got rid of the leather chair. What is there to miss about that disgusting package?? Nothing

          • Donna…I have so listened to your posts. He got that chair in the settlement, I know he is still sitting in it (I took him to the wonderful furniture store and said you need to sit in and pick out your chair). His 40 yo schmoopie is sitting next to him on my sofa. I want to I vomit thinking about it all

            • X wanted nothing in the house. His new ” chair is a sex in the city high back at the casino with a pig in his lap with his hand between her legs. He likes it when she sits on his lap. The security at the casino and bartenders make jokes about them. She has quite a history there. The security are all retired police officers. She’s an addict. They know her well. She didn’t want my furniture she was aiming for my pension. She got pencil dick and has to fake orgasms. You did good blown away and so did I. Smile. She got the package deal. Cheater with a chair, lol.

        • Blown Away, your story reminded me of when I was 17 yrs old (30+ years ago), and my best friend was 18. Her dad, who was in his mid to late 40s, had an affair with a young woman who was only a couple of years older than us… He was an alcoholic and met OW at a bar. She was nothing more than a gold-digging whore and she got pregnant as a result of the affair. My friend’s mother immediately filed for divorce (and took him to the cleaners – got the house and most of his stocks from his employer. He did not fight her. He knew he screwed up big time.) My friend’s dad ended up marrying OWhore soon after.

          The whole time she was pregnant she continued to be a partier. I would go with my friend to visit her dad because she couldn’t stand the thought of being around OWhore alone. I can remember how badly OW wanted my friend and I to accept her as a friend… We were DISGUSTED by her, she was nasty, and were NOT nice to her at all. We openly shamed her for what she did and for her alcohol consumption while pregnant!! She would get mad at us and then cry to my friend’s dad when he got home from work about how mean we were! What did she expect?!?!

          Not long after she had the baby (who turned out healthy) she got involved in hard drugs, was arrested and sent away to prison. My friend’s dad was left to care for the baby alone for quite some time. When OW was released, he took her back and she got pregnant again within a year or two! (What a stupid, stupid man.) She didn’t learn her lesson in prison either, went right back to using/dealing drugs, and got arrested yet again. This time she had the 2nd baby while she was incarcerated.

          By then my friend’s dad was pushing 50. He ended up losing his job with a very good company he had worked for and was just shy of reaching his 30 years and qualifying for retirement benefits. He eventually divorced OWhore, quit drinking, had to find a new job and start all over again with 2 young children in tow. He lost everything he had worked for all those years — a nice family, a nice home, a good job — all for a young slutty piece of ass… He never remarried after that and lives alone. He is in 70s now.

        • So sorry Blown Away – my 55 year old husband is in an affair with a 28 year old who has designs on his money and essentially our life. She would like the comfortable life and house and children that I/ we have. It is devastating to believe that he is willing to swap out us for her. My heart is broken as I really didn’t even know people could do this until it happened to me.

  • The only response I got was “it’s complicated” (holding head in hands) and “people change”. I found out later that complicated is a cool synonym for “there is a third person in this”.

    How did I get suckered in by this guy? He was literate and funny…he just had no job skills whatever and was chronically lazy. He was clever with the romance…good timing that kept me hooked, although I began to notice that I always ended up footing the bill somehow. He was so intent on scamming everyone that it never occurred to him to explain his actions, even to the cops.

    He had checked out long ago. Too bad he was such a user that he continued to live off me for a year so he and schmoopie could save up enough and steal my possessions so they could set up a love nest. Four years later, they are still nomading around changing location every six months,and living on govt benefits.

  • “I love you but I’m not in love with you.”

    “I don’t find you attractive anymore, but you do have empirically physically attractive traits.”

    “We didn’t put the bid in on the house that I wanted (back in 2001).”

    “You had our son tryout for travel basketball a few years ago and didn’t ask me first.”

    “We didn’t get the kitchen sink that I wanted when we built our house (bear in mind that she picked out every single other component in the house, she just didn’t get her granite sink).”

    “I can’t be myself around you.”

    “He’s all I have left.”

    She really said those things to me. I’ll never get closure and I know that. I’ll never get remorse, just regret (that I found out about the A). And I know the reasons set out above are the best I’ll get, because I know that there probably isn’t a real legitimate one that exists. She just did it, did it for a long time, enjoyed herself, felt entitled, and that’s really the gist of it.

    It’s just hard to believe that I married somebody that shallow, that’s the part that I struggle with.

    • Oh Lost.. I got so many of the same lines as well as equally crazy ones.

      I was to blame for him not spending enough time with his parents before they died.

      I was to blame for us never traveling and doing things. I was too cheap with money so he was denied fun.

      I didn’t wear high enough heels.

      I don’t dress sexy enough (this one is puzzling because I know I turn heads- people always compliment me)

      I don’t get his favorite pizza enough.

      I don’t make his favorite dinners enough (meatloaf specifically)

      We don’t have enough sex (fair enough, but I work my ass off and he never did much to relieve that burden)

      Life isn’t fun or exciting (it’s true, raising kids, working.. it’s not Las Vegas but I thought it was still good)

      I am too negative.

      I concentrate too much on the kids.

      When you read that list, and your list.. what stands out is the extreme entitlement. Life is all about THEM.. what they want, what is good for them NOW. There is no credit for me working a job, doing all the cooking, damn near all the childcare, all the cleaning/household stuff, grocery shopping, carting kids all over.. no credit. I am apparently supposed to handle all that, be in a cheery mood, want to have no stop sex (and blow jobs) and concentrate on his needs. What about my needs? When I would challenge him on “what about my needs?” He would say “I spent 20 years on your needs”.. ???? I didn’t know there was an expiration date on it, #1.. and #2- I don’t recall sitting around eating bon bons for 20 years (see list above).

      The further I get from it, the more I realize what bullshit it really is and how disordered he is right now. All we can do is step away.. save ourselves, our kids and let them skip off into the tulips (which I suspect won’t be as rosy as they think it will be). Hang in there.

      • One of the many reasons my ex gave for dumping me (although I’m the one who eventually filed for divorce, so of course he now claims that I was the one who walked away) was that back in the 90s I stymied his efforts at starting an acting career, and thus it is my fault that he did not fulfill his destiny of becoming famous.

        I’m still puzzled over that one. Maybe he wanted to take an acting class or something, and I said no, we didn’t have the money, or we had a newborn at the time or something similar. At any rate, he’s had over five years to fulfill that destiny since marriage ended, and I can assure you all he is not going to be featured on the cover of People magazine any time soon.

        • Yeah getting blamed for him not being there when his parents were sick was a low blow. He claimed I didn’t want to spend the money on plane tickets. I don’t recall this.. I do recall rational conversations about how to spend money.. because we were always strapped, due to his spending habits, but I do not recall telling him “he could not visit his ailing parents”. We may have had talks about “when” to go.. after all, it was 800 miles away, we were both juggling work, a small child. And another one thing.. this was a man who pretty much did whatever he wanted.. bought whatever he wanted.. little ole me couldn’t have stopped him from buying a plane ticket if he had really wanted to.

          And he did have a Car…

          Somehow though, it’s all my fault.. all his regrets go back to me.

          • I heard the same crap:

            You’re too negative.

            You’re no fun.

            My friends don’t like you.

            I never got to go to foam parties in Cancun.

            I was young when I cheated. (right… 38 qualifies as young).

            I can never do anything right, according to you.

          • Um newchumpatl I am pretty sure we were married to the exact same man. Every time you mention something about your ex on here it matches mine exactly. The lame blame is exceptionally similar. It’s like they talked on the phone every night and shared stupid ideas. So. Weird.

        • I “ruined” my lateHs chance to become a professional mountain climber. I also REFUSED to birth the 7 children he wanted (our 3 were insufficient it seems but when it came tome to move closer to OW, he said we could just leave the oldest behind). How many professional mountain climbers do you know?

          • Well, unicornnomore, funny you should ask! Mine wanted to be. In fact, we lived in Yosemite for 7 years before kids and it was his entire focus. He loved it then, loves it now. I enjoyed climbing too but it wasn’t all encompassing for me as it was for him. I got, “I thought you were a climber!” (this while busy raising our family, work, very little time, etc. true my interest waned but I also think some survival instinct kicked in as I didn’t want to die climbing and leave my kids). And, “You led me on, tricked me into having kids,” (so very not true). I got it all, all the blame, all the Mindfuck, and then he discarded me for the perfect climbing partner. They climb, bike, hike, ski. They also live in a shitty apartment, my 16 y/o wants nothing to do with him; she recently tore her ACL so all activities stopped for 6 months; he has no ambition (other than climbing), and that expression “water seeks its own level” is finally becoming a good comforting visual for me.

    • Lost2015, i so relate to your last sentence. It breaks my heart that I spent 20 years with someone who, deep down inside, was so shallow, self absorbed and downright cruel.

      He painted a great ‘nice guy’ image for as long as possible, but then went and blew up his family and takes absolutely no responsibility for what happened. Now he calls the affair partner the devil, since they broke up shortly after I finally said i am done. He quickly moved on to a new soulmate however. I was just a piece of replaceable furniture in his life I guess.

      I work every day to tell myself that the affair was a blessing – it gave me an out. Otherwise, i would have stayed forever since i believe in the sanctity of marriage. I would have kept telling myself he was a good person even though there was nothing good beneath the surface.

      • Wow, Unencumbered. You just wrote my comment, word-for-word. The x-douchebag I was tethered to also painted himself as the “good guy,” and always calm, cool, collected. Turns out he was just an average serial-cheating douche who always had something to hide from me, and also to pin on me that seemed so small and ridiculous, but it makes sense now. All the little things he found at fault in me, in his pea-sized brain, just gave him cause to go out and find happiness with any ho-worker or bitch who gave him the time of day.

        You’re exactly right: the affairs are blessings for each of us. I didn’t say they didn’t hurt like hell or cause us immense psychological/spiritual/physical harm, because they did. But we’re free of those sham “marriages,” and we didn’t do one damn thing to “cause” it. I would have stayed as well, because I didn’t take vows, but made a covenant, and like you, I would have kept telling myself he was a good guy, even though I had been alone and unhappy in that “marriage” for about 7 years at DDay. Twenty-three years wasted. They all suck.

        • I tried desperately to convince myself he was actually a good person. I tried so hard. Now, when I think about how ‘hard I tried’ I just realize how spackly that is. I want to recover from it and understand my lack of insight in doing that. I was very fooled by those moments of kindness he would show (but always dr. jekyl and mr. hyde).

      • “I work every day to tell myself that the affair was a blessing – it gave me an out.”

        Same here, the evidence I uncovered and his reactions to my confronting him were closure enough. I trust that he sucks.

        Accepting that the harmonious marriage and family I had been working so hard at building was a mirage that only existed in my own head is a much harder part of this life lesson.

      • The positivity is inspiring and I appreciate everyone who is sharing their challenges here. The concept of a mirage is exactly my challenge too. My divorce was finalized last week and it’s stirred up all kinds of stuff for me. I thought I was poised to move forward and the official rubber stamping of this joke just dragged me back into a storm of sadness. His big declaration was “sometimes there’s just no good explanation.” He pretty much said nothing about why this happened and proceed to say how great I was and he didn’t realize. In the lead up to the divorce, he was a monster, now he’s sweet. I’m guessing he’s happy to have what he wants now. I struggle with the idea that I was working towards a life long marriage and he was only surfing until he got to the shore. On top of this, I felt forced into taking action because he wouldn’t talk about it and paid for the divorce. There’s no kids so it was pretty easy, but reconciliation in your mind is beyond the challenge I expected.

      • Thank you all. I have to keep reminding myself that no matter how mean and blaming he is of me being the cause of everything that has happened (and that my reaction to his affair is what broke the marriage and his love for me) and that his actions had nothing to do with it – that what happened IS a blessing and now I can try to live my life without walking on eggshells every day

    • “It’s just hard to believe that I married somebody that shallow, that’s the part that I struggle with.”
      I think that’s the part we all struggle with, Lost 2015. How did I get suckered so badly? How did I not see? What kind of special idiot was I? When I start to eel that way I remember, that’s just my chumpiness talking and I try to silence it. Sometimes I win and sometimes I don’t, but I’m trying.

      • AOK – I totally get your post – Because after you “know” for sure, you remember all the signs you saw that you ignored. For heaven’s sake, I knew my husbands assistant (the AP – 28 to his 55) had a crush on him, but I didn’t even feel threatened. But….Never in a million years did I think my husband was disloyal, dishonest or irrational enough to have an affair. Only “bad” people would do that – not someone I’ve been with 33 years, married for 29.

        So be nice to yourself – It’s your optimism and belief in humanity and decency that kept you in the “dark.” Hugs

    • Along with the usual bullshit they pretty much all spout (“I never should have married you” “We never had anything in common,) I was also told that I didn’t play enough board games. Yeah, there’s a truly unforgivable flaw in a wife of 20 years who cheater himself described as “a good wife, a good mother who took great care of him, our home and our son.”

      • I was told that she should have left me 3 years earlier when I was too snarky about our small town’s Christmas festival.

        I would have saved a ton of money if she had, as that was before she started nursing school part-time and quit work entirely. D’oh!

    • Lost2015, the first words out of my XW’s mouth were the classic ILYBINILWY. I’m one of the lucky ones because she abandoned ship and went NC on me. 30 years together and “poof”, gone. It’s a different kind of mind f##k, but still hurts 8 mo out from divorce. But your statement “It’s just hard to believe that I married somebody that shallow, that’s the part that I struggle with” hit home. I can’t believe I married someone so pathetic. Final straw was when she went trolling on Facebook for old high school boy friends and found one going through a divorce. It’s just a pathetic cliché. She’s with him now and I can’t help but think what a loser she is. Keep strong and trust that she Sucks!

      • I only had 5 years in, but the mind fuck is still horrendous. The person I loved and trusted, seemingly for valid reasons, pulled a Houdini. I didn’t even get a goodbye from her 15 year-old son whom I had been a step-father to for those 5 years.

        I was roadkill on the highway of her life. I’m still waiting for animal control to clean me up.

  • I finally got my closure, after listening to the umpteenth time to how cheating was ‘just something that happened in relationships’ and grabbing me by the throat and threatening to hit me with a snow shovel (don’t laugh, it’s Canada!) were ‘not a big deal’ because he didn’t physically hurt me.

    I just realized one day that he and I do not show the same values.

    Just as he was projecting onto me (you don’t love me right! you think you’re always right!), I had been projecting onto him (when you have kids, you try to protect their family; when you commit to someone, you try to help make them happy, and you don’t stab them in the back).

    I realized I didn’t want to be with someone to whom I would have to EXPLAIN why cheating was a bad thing, why lying is a problem, and why scaring the shit out of your kids and then spending next-to-no time with them is not OK.

    So, although it arrived in the context of trying to get closure from him, I realized this was an internal thing entirely. The closure was mine. It was just my chumpy brain and heart the stopped me from getting it earlier.

    • KarenE – YES!!! THIS!!
      It has taken me four years (I know, ridiculous!) to get to the point where I get it. I finally understood the answer to the question “why did he do that?” Our values didn’t align.

      I’m a beautifully flawed perfectly imperfect human who cares about other human beings. He’s not.
      I was projecting my moral values and humanity onto him assuming he also had the same values and responses. Big mistake. HUGE mistake.

      After leaving a relationship with a narc cheater closure is an inside job.

      • Ninja chump & KarenE, Such a help! Great way of putting it: misaligned values. That’s the heart of it, right? Someone who’s indulgences in opportunity over integrity. At an interpersonal level, we were highly compatible and great friends. It blows my mind these people are so completely self absorbed that they’d rather write off someone who makes a great co-pilot than find a compromise to move together in life with. Totally their loss, but I still find it crazy.

        • My god this comment rocks. My ex and I were also highly compatible. We enjoyed each others company (or at least seemed to), agreed on just about every major aspect of life, and I think we each had strengths that meshed well with the weaknesses of the other. That’s one of the things that threw me for a loop – whenever I’d gleefully announce that we made a great team, she agreed with me. Of course during the discard she claims to have been lying about it to not upset me. See, that way it’s my fault that she was leaving me. It’s true that I may have reacted poorly had she been honest with me, as I was finally at long last coming to terms with my dysfunctional upbringing, actually making progress it therapy, etc. Apparently I was considered incapable of dealing with the truth but perfectly capable of surviving abandonment. Harumph.

          We were 99% perfect together. That 1% that led her to run off caught me just a bit off guard. She wasn’t a monster. Sex was still regular. Hell, I had bought her an electric car just 4 months earlier.

          I hate this. It’s been a year and I’m still blaming myself for losing someone so important to me. A large part of that is because I loved having one special person to share my life with and then having minor characters on the side. I’ve never in my life been a social butterfly or had a large group of friends. I’m lost and confused trying to figure out how to make life meaningful as a single person. It’s a daily struggle and it hurts.

  • I think the need or want for closure is innate. When disaster( natural/ accident/ shooting/ murder) strikes we have experts to exam all the facts, put together a report and give a synopsis of the event. There is always seeminly a rational explanation. Not that it takes away any of the pain or stages of grief but we can logically process the disaster and ‘ prepare ‘ ourselves for any like situation. You now have knowledge to arm or brace yourself in the future for anything similiar and you can do your part to avoid or prevent you being or feeling the blame of the disaster.
    The problem with Cheaters is they love the ambiguity and most keep that power by never giving you the real reason that they cheated( because they are entitled, selfish sacks of shit) Nope, not the cheater… He is not the cause of the disaster nor is he responsible for the effect. There is always a ‘ but’ and that ‘ but’ is directly linked to you. He wouldnt have cheated… But______.
    Lets reframe closure…. There is a door ajar…ya got two,options…. Close the door or open it. Opening the door invites all the bullshit back into yr life and you NEVER resolve anything….closing the door keeps the bullshit outa yr life. You have a choice. Thats your closure.
    I slammed the mother fucker shut…and put a sign that says ‘ no soliciting’

      • Arlo… I have an image of my ex as the smarmy door to door salesman…. He got his pitch…he has done his rounds on the local neighborhood women… He wants to make me believe I cant live without his shit. His shit is gonna change my life and I will be sorry that i didnt buy his shit when he was putting it out there … Afterall Mrs Cooper down the block loves his shit. Despite the ‘ no soliciting sign ‘ on the door he insists on ringing the bell… Cause that fucking sign aint for him. When I dont answer the door he leaves a card… Just to let me know he was there. And he keeps coming back everyday… His shit is that good. Eventually he tires of the closed door and make up a story to himself that I am deaf or disbaled… She cant come to the door. He tells himself and his favorite customer ‘ I tried, there is something wrong with her… She cant see I got this great shit’

        We aint buying crazy no more…. Who fucking cares what he tells the customer or himself. Keep the door shut.

        • Love the salesman analogy Clip-just remember to smile as you tell the cheater ‘I’m not buying what you’re selling!’

      • I like the concept of people needing to logically process the disaster. Being extremely pragmatic, that is always a problem with me. They call them lingering questions because the question is always out there, lingering.

        It’s hard sometimes to accept that you’ll have to find another way to work it out.

  • Not once, have I felt the urge to ask why my X dropped that anvil on my head. When this was still fresh, I used to play it out in my head of how I figured it would go if I did. Every time I came to the conclusion that I’d rather have a pap smear and a root canal on the same day, than have to sit and listen to all the reasons why this was either my fault, or beyond his control.

    Closure is not giving a fuck either way. It takes awhile to get there, but once you do, it just doesn’t matter why they did it. It sure as hell wasn’t something I did. I know I’m awesome.

    Throttling me the way he did turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. I have a new life, new friends, new man . . . and I’m not married to someone I can’t trust anymore. That’s my closure.

    • Exactly Rumblekitty. I never asked either. I knew I wasn’t going to get a real answer, so why bother?
      If closure is not giving a fuck either way, then count me in and closed.
      To me closure will be when my youngest turns 18 and I can go true No Contact! Can’t wait!
      Or if he dies, but I know I can’t count on the Karma bus to use my timeline.
      And, you are awesome, Rumblekitty!

    • Yep. Closure isn’t always getting an answer out of them. It’s finding it in yourself. When it finally snaps into place in your mind and heart that what they did really wasn’t about you. They self destruct their entire lives and can’t/won’t stop. There was NOTHING you could have done/said to stop them. Nor should you have to.

    • Exactly, Rumblekitty. Who the F cares “why” they say they cheated?

      However, I’ll bet the reasons people were given by their cheaters would be side-splittingly funny and/or pathetic.

      I’ll start: “The cupboards and refrigerator were too full, and I felt stressed.”

  • This is very relevant because just the other day I was thinking about how nearly half the posts on the Surviving Infidelity Reconciliation forum are about cheaters struggle to discover their “why” and chumps not being satisfied with the “Whys” they’ve been given (most of which are “I don’t know”, which is cheater-speak for “I don’t want to tell you).

    These chumps are torturing themselves because in order to reconcile, they need to find a problem they can fix and a reason “Why” that they can live with.

    Unfortunately, regardless of the person or the circumstances, the “Why” is always this: “They wanted to cheat, felt entitled to cheat and thought they would get away it.”

    In my opinion, there’s no way to accept that reality and stay married… not unless you give up your last shred of dignity and willingly accept that you are settling for a marriage that will never be trusting or peaceful.

    And so the chumps chasing the Unicorn of Reconciliation will continue to delude themselves into thinking there is some other, more profound reason “Why” and if they can only find it, the cheater will fix themselves, the chump will have closure, and all past wrongs will be righted.

    • I stopped hitting SI long ago. I felt like if I offered the advice of “OH MY GOD MAN!! JUST LEAVE THE BITCH AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE!” they would ban me.

      And stuff like this:
      Me: 32
      Him: 36
      In a relationship since 10/31/08
      D-day 1: 05/08/09
      D-day 2: 08/30/10
      D-day 3: 05/07/11
      D-day 4: 09/2012
      D-day 5: 08/2013


      • You are PREACHING to the choir! Some of those fools on SI’s Reconciliation board have profiles EXACTLY as RumbleKitty listed – tons of D-Days, multiple affair partners, countless hookups from Adult Friend finder or Craigslist, visits to the local massage parlors for years, and the list just goes ON.

        And they’re ‘reconciling.’ Seriously??? Staying really IS the new shame, isn’t it?

        I want to blow my damned brains out reading their Reconciliation board on SI. My god, the DELUSION. It’s like a Jim Jones Kool-Aid party over there with them always encouraging each other to stay the course with some lying, cheating scumbag whose pretending to be OH so remorseful. And god forbid you try to infuse a little truth into their delusion over there – you’ll get banned immediately.

        And they all DO need some phony, trumped-up psychological REASON for their cheater’s behavior. They refuse to believe they married a lying cheater who did it simply because they wanted to. No, that’s too easy. It’s GOT to be some ridiculous ‘foo’ issue or that old standby they’re ALL using now, ‘he’s a sex addict!’ or ‘he’s a porn addict!’ Yes, every cheater now is a sex addict, and porn was his ‘gateway drug’ according to the sheep.

        I guess they’ll tell themselves anything and swallow every last ounce of their pride in order to stay with these cheating losers.

        • I don’t comment on the reconciliation forum because I know they’re not interested in what I have to say, but I visit it from time to time simply for the affirmation that I did the right thing by leaving.

      • Perhaps everyone should post, “For crying out loud, leave the loser already!” on the SI board. We’d all be banned, but who cares? Perhaps we should each leave such a comment, one per day, starting in alphabetical order. Whose CL moniker starts with A?

          • I love it, Boudica! My kind of woman.

            We need to save those poor people attempting wreckonciliation. This is public service, chumps. For anyone who is game, here’s the schedule to let the poor chumps on SI know there is an alternative to perpetual depression and gaslighting. Steer them towards Tracy’s site, if you like.
            Sept 17 (tomorrow): CL code names with A
            Set. 18: names with a B (Boudica, your turn to shine!)
            Sept. 19: Names with C-Cl (since lots of “chump names”)
            Sept. 20: Cm-Cz
            21: D, E
            22: F, G
            23: H, I
            24: J, K
            25: L, M
            26: N, O
            27: P, Q
            28: R, S
            29: T, U (that’s me)
            30: V,W
            Oct 1: X, Y, Z

            • Hey, I get the impulse, but please don’t antagonize reconciliation sites in my name. SI has already banned me and I don’t want any bad blood with those folks. (Not that I don’t already have it, I just would rather not give them cause.)

              If people want to find me, I show up on Google and HuffPo. Thanks.

              • Fair enough; we can mention alternatives, or our own relief at ending reconciliation because leaving brought more peace, or because whatever we knew about an affair was the tip of the iceberg (and leave CL out of it).

    • I went to a BAN group for a while. The people were fantastic, but I finally had to stop because I just couldn’t take all the excuses anymore. These poor people would show up at those meetings making excuse after excuse for their cheater and it was like a trainwreck to me. Many of the cheaters had MULTIPLE offenses. I kept wanting to scream.. GET OUT he/she is a CAKE EATER.. but it wouldn’t have been received.

      I pray for those folks. God love um.

      • I actually met two real nice people from SI. We’re email buddies still.

        It definitely served it’s purpose, but I know what you mean . . . I can’t tell someone to give their serial cheating wife/husband another shot. I just couldn’t do it.

        • There was one lady I met at BAN whose H was a serial cheater, craigslist hookups, the whole nine yards. I felt for her.. she wanted to excuse it as a “sex addition”.. something I don’t believe in.

          I still think about her, wonder if she got the guts to leave his stupid ass.

          • LOL…just as I said a few posts up. They’re ALL jumping on that excuse now. I think it basically started when that fool Tiger Woods claimed to be a sex addict rather than own that he was doing what MOST popular sports figures do – screwing around every chance they get. The only difference between him and the others doing it is that HE got caught.

            Ever since then, everyone’s been jumping on the bandwagon and using that excuse. It’s actually pitiful.

      • It absolutely wouldn’t be well received, BUT it plants the seed. We all know that it takes awhile to accept a truth that is that ugly, but once the seed is planted it does grow.

    • Lulu, I think you’ve hit on it — that chump cheater dance of Why.

      Weirdly (paradoxically?) I think the only way you could really have a unicorn of authentic reconciliation is if the cheater just said “I did it because I wanted to and I really did not care if you got hurt. Not enough anyway.”


      No FOO excuses, no “explanations”, no musings on the affair partner(s).

      Just — it was ME. I was selfish, stupid, immature. I own it. And I accept the consequences AND you don’t OWE me ANYTHING on reconciliation.

      IMO, if you really got that, and it was backed up with meaningful actions (post-nup, them paying your therapy or legal bills, or whatever) — I would RESPECT IT.

      I don’t know if I could reconcile with it, but I would appreciate the ownership. And I think that unicorn is the START of the journey.

      A lot of places talk a good game about “owning it” and not blameshifting, but then they go down a thousand rabbit holes of excuses. And articles for the chumps on How They Could Do Better and Be More Understanding.


      So… I created this place.

      • That’s me! That legit explanation is almost exactly what my cheater said in one of his moments of honesty.

        I am still a few months fresh from d-day, and while I love your site & it helps keep me from totally dissociating from reality, my cheater is not a psychopath or totally nefarious. He’s narcissistic, but … not as far along the spectrum as some folks I read about. And his apology was that exactly. Right away he admitted that he did it because it seemed interesting and fun, and he thought I would never find out. (And again, and again, and again.) He’s never once attributed it to anything I am, anything I do/did.

        So just like you say in your comment, it doesn’t necessarily mean reconciliation for us. (Part of me wants to, part of me is lighting matches to set him on fire in his sleep.) But he owns it.

        And it’s not enough for closure. So please keep writing. 🙂

        • Mine also blamed only himself for cheating with 28 year old assistant for over 2 years…and feels awful and wants to reconcile. However, when I think of those thousands of lies, and the fact he stole time from me and kids, It i hard to get over.
          Further, eight months past DDay he can’t seem to go 100% no contact.
          Sucks to be me,

      • As you said before, CL, if cheaters had the capacity for remorse necessary to save their marriages they wouldn’t have cheated.

        Personally, I think even the Unicorns are unhappy. They will NEVER be on equal footing with their chumps. Whatever legitimate gripes they had they had with their spouse can’t be addressed while the chump is struggling to recover, and that full recovery may never happen.

        Cheating is basically the emotional equivalent of running over your spouse with a car. You might’ve been drunk when it happened, you might never do it again, and you might 200℅ committed to financially supporting your crippled spouse and pushing them around in a wheelchair for the rest of your lives, but your spouse and your marriage are irrevocably changed.

      • And here In This Place
        – We do not sweep under the rug
        – We don’t buy the narrative that we weren’t meeting his/her needs, thus pushing them to cheat
        – We do think infidelity is a form of abuse far beyond day to day problems in the marriage
        – We don’t believe it is our responsibility to perform the Pick Me dance since they abused us and brought trauma into our lives – NOT the other way around
        – We do think that infidelity points to problems with character
        – We do believe that a cheater needs to demonstrate better character through consistent action, and that forgiveness is earned (see item 1: we do not sweep under the rug)
        – We don’t believe that sooner or later, everyone cheats
        – We don’t believe that speaking the truth about infidelity means we blame others for our problems

        Most of us here are truth seekers, not bitter vindictive victims.

        Most of us here want to do the right thing and live with integrity.

        We know first hand the REALITY of the negative consequences of infidelity, so we know infidelity is NOT an innocent, victim-less lapse of judgement, but a serious form of abuse that destroys lives. That is truth – and that is not bitterness. That is authentic, vulnerable, intimate examination of actual circumstances, actual relationships, and actual feelings.

        (disclaimer: substitute I for We above, as I don’t care to speak for others)

        • Buddy

          Demonstrating better character through consistent actions is where I disagree. As I’ve stated before I’m not in favor of Reconcilliation.

          There are no accidents. They are looking. It’s who they are, it’s what they do. They may ACT better. Become better liars, and give the mask a nudge. When you look at the stages of narcissistic relationships, Reconcilliation puts you back to the infatuation with lots of sex and adoration. Then things become routine and the subtle signs emerge. The criticism, the displeasure, and complaints start. The cheating NEVER ended.

          Cheaters cheat.

          • I don’t disagree with you Donna. In part I was making the point that the opposite is not true: that we should not simply forgive and trust as part of the healing (and rebuilding, if you choose to go that route) process.

            Any many of us have children with the cheaters, so even with divorce and NC, there is still co-parenting, and, gasp, relating, to consider.

      • Thanks so much CL. I had to navigate that cesspool of confusion without much in the way of a support network, working from the premise of What Did I Do Wrong? Mind you, even my lawyer said things like “Well, what did you expect? You married the man!” Chumps have already been smacked pretty hard in the gut. They don’t need to be kicked any more.

  • ” ‘This’ was a terrible thing to do to the mother of my children ”

    wow, that sounds like a nice apology… dang…I wonder what he considered “this” to even be…how handy and sanitized to bundle betrayal, cruelty, abandonment, threats, insults, untold adulterous monkey sex, forgetting he had children for months at a time and scores of other selfish irresponsibility into “this”

    then there was the time he said “I had a bad moment”


    his time of acute abuse and betrayal lasted longer that WWII, no fucking joke

      • “Mistake”….”this”….. Mine always liked to say ” moving forward” instead of DIVORCE!!!! Being the good ” bible believing , Christian, head elder , nice guy” I guess “moving forward” didn’t leave the same sinful feeling in his mouth as divorce did…..funny how changing words doesn’t change the real meaning….i

    • unicornnomore, you were clearly married to my ex’s twin! He tried to apologize, but just couldn’t actually say the words of what he had done!!!! And then of course was resentful when I asked him to say it.

      Even today, he takes no responsibility for his CHOICES, and has rarely made any mention of the pain he caused, to me or the kids. He was ‘angry, and deaf to others’ needs’, but he’s all better now! A changed man! Wow, it’s amazing what a few months and a few sessions of therapy can do. (Where’s the sarcasm font when you need it!)

  • This article is timely for me. I also sought some semblance of an answer from my STBX and he was even worse than most cheaters because he continued to lie to me about it. He NEVER admitted that his schmoopie was anything other than a “friend”.. which was, and continues to be, horseshit. He’s going on a trip this week, out of the blue, claims he’s going alone. I told him.. there is no reason to lie NOW??? Yet he insists. Anything to keep up the image.. or whatever. Why keep lying?

    This is even WORSE for the poor chump because some of us don’t even get a validation of the obvious truth.. that they lied to us, continue to lie to us, and disrespect us and the families we worked hard to build.

    Eventually you just have to find closure for yourself.. trust they suck and realize they are disordered liars. Wish the Schmoopies good luck untangling that skein because as CL and CN say… they don’t get character transplants. The things that plague them now will always plague them- with us, with current schmoopie or future schmoopies. Until they learn to take responsibility for their lives and choices- their lives will be drama filled messes.

    But chumps, this is not our problem. Not our circus, not our monkey. Onward and upward.

    • newchumpatl, my incredible catch did the very same thing! If I had a dollar for every time he said “we are just friends”. Finally after months he admitted he’d characterize it as an ’emotional affair’ and that he ‘wants to see what will happen’. Apparently prior to this he didn’t realize you could emotionally cheat on your spouse. So, the part where he felt like he had to keep it a secret didn’t tip him off it was wrong? The part where he lied about where he was going and what he was doing seemed totally above board? If you’re sneaking around and it’s not a surprise FOR your spouse, something is def wrong!!! He admitted kissing her, but he won’t admit to sex. I told him I’d bet that’s because he thinks I’ll go NC. We are barely speaking now, but there’s been a few things to address post-divorce. He’ll be out of my life completely very soon. I know it’s self destructive, but I’ve been a little curious. Amazingly, it doesn’t matter how many lies I’ve caught him in, he just lies some more or avoids answering. Incredible.

  • I think a large percentage of cheaters never expect to get caught, so they have no reason except for utter selfishness, and a complete lack of self esteem as a partner and parent. No empathy for others.

  • Sort of on the flip side, my cheater said she emailed her ex-boyfriend because she needed closure. Then one thing led to another and they had sex. That is a strange kind of closure. She had been setting me up the whole time because she would occasionally mention that she wanted to contact him for this purpose but really she was fantasizing about him.

    • Cheaters are always “fishing,” casting about, and looking for others to hook up with. That’s the difference with these losers. You are married, and they are still looking.

  • All great comments above.

    I’m a fan of simplifying, so I would add only this:

    You cannot achieve rational closure with someone who’s character sucks massive amounts of spiritual donkey-ass.

    And to engage in the levels of deception required for cheating, your (hopefully very soon to be ex-) spouse, by definition, **HAS** to have character that sucks massive amounts of spiritual donkey-ass.

    I think people get hung up on closure because otherwise it means going solo on facing the truth that a) your (hopefully very soon to be ex-) spouse actually does suck that badly, which means that b) no, you really didn’t know your (hopefully very soon to be ex-) spouse all that well. Which means chumpy you has some internal psychological restructuring to do regarding how you approach long-term relationships.

    Those are all bitter pills to swallow, but they contain the medicine that will set you free to live your most kick-ass, authentic, mighty, cheater-free life.

  • Mine said because we didn’t have a beach wedding… we had been married 8 years… and the last time we went to the beach was 9 years earlier…

  • This is really resonates with me. I went down this path a few times and every time he was always like “oh, you didn’t do x” or “you needed to be better at y.” I even came back at him a few times and said “well, you could’ve chosen counseling or divorce or scrapbooking or anything other than cheating.” It made no difference to him; he didn’t suddenly develop a conscience. It’s really just not worth pursuing anymore. Meh is the path I’m pursuing now.

  • Here’s the closure: They don’t love us. They don’t respect us. They don’t care about anyone else but themselves. The marriage is over.

    Just wash, rinse, repeat. It’s a shovel upside the head no doubt but that is the mantra that chumps everywhere need to keep repeating until they achieve understanding. In my humble opinion that is the only “faking it until you make it” that is needed.

    If I had a nickel for every time I heard that phrase on an infidelity website, well I’d have a lot of nickels! Don’t fake happiness until you make it; repeat those words above over and over until you believe them.

  • I probably got the most honest answer from my cheater at the time he dropped the bomb. He told me, ” I thought I was cute!” Ummm….. WTF? Meaning he had an offer of easy pussy, he had the ability to lie and set up the big sex meeting, so he literally jumped on it! It was only after his pea brain realized that it exposed him and his blatant selfishness that he started blaming me with some of the weakest excuses known to man! He was out right ridiculous. So now he can live with all that BS and Schmoopie the rest of his miserable life.
    And Tracy, if you got an offer that was unacceptable and a lawyer who wanted you to sign an unacceptable offer, you did the right thing saying NO and firing your lawyer! Remember, this is your one chance to get it right and provide for you and your girls! DO NOT settle for good enough! I know it’s a pain, but get the settlement you need and want. You will regret it if you take some of these crappy offers just to stop having to deal with the disordered asshole! I was offered some pretty bad settlements and I continued to say NO! Finally my idiot Ex and his lawyer knew I wasn’t going to budge and it took some time, but he finally signed off on what I wanted from the very beginning! Get a real tough as nails lawyer and dig in for the long haul! We are talking about how your life will look many years down the road after you rid yourself of the cheater. There is no do over and if you do have to go back to court then your odds of modifying an agreement are slim and expensive! Believe me, these assholes will fold given time!

  • Millions ofpeople break up and divorce every day. Not painful just a fact of life I was told cheating is normal and most people except it and remain good friends like his girlfriends 2 ex husbands. Ha! The first one cheated on her cause she cheated on him and they hate each other. The first one was the love her life. Second one was a worm she could lead aroundby the nose. She spent them into bbankruptcy and bad credit. Poor guy has a break down she cheats and divorced him. Sunk her cclaws into my asshole who promptly tells her he will most likely cheat on her he still loves me still wants me still in love with me her comment you’ll never do it to me I’m the true love the one and only and you’ll forget all about everyone else but me. If he told me that when I met him like he told her I would have run away screaming no! Told her that on their 2nd date and wanted him more!! Arrgh! Really! Seriously! They deserve each other for sure. 30 years I was with this man (asswipe) if these cheating bastards and bitches would only be honest sorry not sorry say they fell in love with someone else they are leaving for this skank want a divorce make it fair help the injured spouse to sell the house and move on god would it still hurt and be extremely painful but the end result could happen quicker. I was supposed to go in a rental so they could move in my house that I paid like a good little chump til they got their shit together whenever that would be. So instead of ending everything I would have been fighting for years to sell my house. My lawyer told me do not leave the house getting the right decision for you could take years if your ex decides to fight it the judge can’t enforce a rental agreement I could wipe my ass with it. Ex was irate I listened to a competent member of the bar or him and his incredibly smart girlfriend!!! They know what’s best for me. Seriously! You can’t make this stuff up!!!

  • CL is so right, again (or before,since this is an old post). Everytime I tried the relationship autopsy conversation (before finding CL) it was a complete and utter disaster because it usually went in the direction of “I am sorry BUT…” and the “buts” were totally unsatisfactory : “I thought you didn´t love me anymore” “you were too worried about the kids and not enough about me” “you wouldn´t go out to parties with me (because I was home with the kids AND he would never invite me!!) “you are a strong women” “you didn´t seduce me enough” “you are not a good communicator” “you forced me into getting married, having kids and having the dream home we always wanted”… I stuck my head into a garbage disposal rather than a blender!

    • I too got “I didn’t think you loved me anymore” and the ever popular “Our marriage was over anyway” BS.

      There is only ONE signifier that a marriage is over asshat: it’s called a divorce. Something that can be procured quite hastily in this country if everyone plays fair. Something that should be procured before they start having sex with other people.

      They are cowards though. They do not dare venture into the dark, scary world alone unless they have a soft place to land. They are test driving their next relationship with either no intention of committing to one or the other or for a specified period of time in which they can decide who is pick me dancing better.

      This is one of the reasons that I believe second, third, fourth and beyond ddays occur. Once they give themselves permission to cheat once, they will keep doing it until they find what they perceive is their perfect mate.

      I honestly believe that the only thing guaranteed by staying with a cheater after they’ve been caught once is another dday.

      • Agreed, Cheaterssuck. If they can keep their cake while they troll for kibbles, they will never stop. I would add that if you stay with them, you have given them permission to cheat again because they will expect the same generosity the next time.

      • Cheaterssuck, at one point he said to me “you looked at me like you hated me”. This was his justification for going off the rails and pretending like I don’t exist. I didn’t have any idea which moment he was talking about in particular. When I tried to talk with him about what was going on, he’d say “you’re going to divorce me anyways”. In the end, he was right, but that wasn’t my desire out of the gate. I actually wanted to work it out. Now I’m convinced it was all a ploy to get me to do his dirty work. Now he can tell all his new friends “she left me” and not even have to pay for the divorce. Honestly, it all happened super quick (I moved out four months ago, the divorce was final a week ago) and I wonder if I rushed it.

  • When I was pick me dancing, unicorn hunting, and a lot further from meh than I am today I was fed some real gems:
    I was too young and immature to be married – 30 years after the wedding
    I like OW and want to go on seeing her but there is no point in divorcing over it as it will not last anyway
    We have hurt each other too much
    She is just an innocent woman who I started dating after separation – and the six and a half years before separation
    My mum screwed me up
    Your dad screwed you up
    OW says that this has ruined her life and never thought that I would lie to her

    I bet u all have heard various versions of the above and many more – well folks, that is closure for you so why go begging them to continue lying and mindfucking like its a favour that you need from them.
    If we want something from these people then they have the power to deny us it – use that power to their own advantage – and keep them going in kibbles.
    We need to find our own closure here – we won’t get the “truth” from liars and the answers that we seek probably do not exist.

    I prefer the word acceptance – acceptance of reality – you know it really does not matter if they first fucked in June or in January or if they used the car or a hotel to do it in. It happened.
    We want control back and we look to our cheater – who was willing and able to screw us over – to provide us with the information to achieve that. OK – I did sort of love him and his dick is average to large in size and I came twice or – she was no good at blow jobs and refused to do that, except on two occasions last summer when you were visiting family. You are prettier but her tits felt firm……
    Why torture ourselves here.
    Do not ask questions or have personal conversations about AP, why, where, when or how. If the marriage is over it really does not matter.
    Go NC as far as possible. When you do have to interact be polite and businesslike – their private life is no longer your concern. Do not pump your children/friends/anybody for stories about them or check their social media. Put your time and energy into making your own life move forward….this is a process and not always easy. If you have a bad day or backslide then dust yourself down and keep on going – as long as its in the opposite direction from where the hurt and danger lies. It gets easier – I promise.

  • i got the “you didnt treat me right/good” (which might have some truth to it since i was struggling with my eldest childs death) but everytime i asked him HOW? i got that blank stare. he just could think of a single thing for an example so he just repeated “you were treating me bad”

    my closure was when i was talking to him on the phone about filing the papers……………well i was talking, he was screaming, and blaming me for everything…anyway i hung up because it was going nowhere and was hurting my heart. almost as soon as i hung up, he was calling back. my heart soared, hoping he was calling me back to say we need to talk and we need to fix this, that he didnt want a divorce and couldnt live without me, his wife and his kids. shockingly not only did he NOT say those things but it wasnt even him. his oompa loompa hood rat took his phone bout of his hand and called me so SHE could scream at me and tell me herself what she wanted him to tell me. at first i was fighting and then it dawned on me ….what kind of woman callls her boyfriends wife? she didnt know meor what happened in the 14.5 years i was with him. but she had to make sure to tell me “HE IS MINE NOW” and “HE DOESNT WANT YOU”. but more importantly what kind of man lets her? all those cruel and hateful shit she was saying he was sitting right there listening to her say that. to me. to his wife…

    i realized his values and mine were way different. and i let her win

    • Seriously. They have the audacity to do this, then all the more reason they deserve each other. She “won” another problem, I won my freedom.
      You’re doing a lot better now, I bet?

  • I wanted to reply to newchumpatl:

    Reasons I heard for the EA:

    I love you but I’m not in love you.

    You are too controlling

    and the piece du resistance (and the most truthful): I never wanted to be a father, a husband or a home owner. I want to come home from work and play my video games all night.

    To which I replied (in my mind):

    that might fly for a teenager but you are over 40 with two children so you need to “man up”

    I must commend CL for my two new favorite sayings

    Stop expecting Milk from a Chicken
    Why would you stick your head in that blender

    • PG, I could have gotten the third excuse except he wasn’t a father. He never said it but I pretty much can bet it’s one thing he was thinking by his knowing him and his actions. The house meant nothing to him except when he wanted to tap into the equity. Easy come, easy go.

      The only time I asked for a reason I said, “WHAT IS YOUR F’N PROBLEM?.” After months of emotional abuse I saw a “secret” email requesting an appointment with a divorce attorney. (The infamous one he typed while eating the sandwiches I’d made him CN.) I went to his job and confronted him. Blank stare, kind of. More like eyes sliding to the side. He acted like it was going to be talked about and worked out in the morning and tried to rub my arm. Didn’t speak to me for three days and then announced he was leaving, but not because of her. They were “just friends”. That’s when I got the ILYBINILWY.

      I went through so much self blame. I think part of it was that I thought I MUST have done something to cause it. Because it just didn’t make sense. But he’s just f’d up.

      • Oh, and while he was eating and typing I was in the kitchen making his lunch for work which included the “special treat” I always put in. I’m sure he was about to eat that too. In the words of someone I recently told my story to, “Fuck him!”

  • Finding out your husband is a whoremonger is quit enough closure for me. I’ve known plenty of them and none of them were anything special. Just willing to stick their dick in anything that spreads its legs.

  • I got what I think were the two most honest answers from my ex when he was feeling shameful.

    First time was when I kicked him out. He admitted to the affair (only the one I caught him with) and told me he did it because he felt entitled. I believe that! However, about 4 months later in front of the MC after his serial cheating was out in the open, he turned to me and said ‘do you want to know why I cheated?’. I responded ‘well you told me already it was because you felt entitled. Is this a different reason?’ Of course, I got the puzzled look from him like he didn’t remember telling me that…..then he proceeded with his reasons that of course, but all the blame on me.

    The second time was a few months later when I caught him with a prostitute while we were still attempting reconciliation. That’s when he admitted to seeing them throughout our marriage too. He said ‘I can’t stop’. That one I believe as well.

    With that, and then him later refusing to help with our joint bills/daughter’s expenses but avoiding me so he didn’t have to tell me he wasn’t going to help with them anymore, was all the closure I needed and off to the attorney I went. I have this nagging feeling though that he will pop up at some point in the future and want to talk things through with me – my answer will most certainly be ‘hell to the no!’

  • Thanks for running the column again! I needed the reinforcement from this article that the best path is to just go forward. I realize that i’ll never get real closure with the stbx. And just like the others here, early on when I asked it was the “you didn’t meet my needs” “you were really mean during that period”. Thanks to CN, I know she was just blame shifting to validate her decision. Just yesterday i got a text that said I still love you and call me if you need me. Ignored the text. What a bunch of BS. You already have a boyfriend and you’ve even told our daughters about him. And the 16 year old commented she thought she was crazy. No reply from me because she’s exactly right. The mind***king is amazing. They just don’t get it and i’ve come to realize they just think differently. Don’t even waste my time trying to understand. Know the reasons are the ones CL tells us. The are selfish and only think about themselves. How did I get messed up with someone like that and ignore it for 23years? And i’m determined to keep my head out of that blender! LOL!

    • Lostntx – Beth shared a great blog post a while ago about a technique called “gray rock” –

      It has helped me quite a bit and I hope it can help you given your ex’s recent texts. She is likely to ramp up her contacts given how recent your DDay was.

      You know what’s worse than ignoring how messed up she is for 23 years? Ignoring she is messed up for 23 years and one day… Pull the plug on that blender :)!

  • We seem to believe we want closure, but listening to some of the pure BS that flows out of a cheaters mouth isn’t going to EVER satisfy our logic because the cheater hasn’t the capacity for logic! They live their lives and invest in “feelings” and fleeting moments of compulsion! They just “do it” because it’s available and they feel like it! They are over grown children who cannot grasp the reality of a genuine grown up life! They want to be forever young, sexy and wanted! Do I need someone in my life who has finally acknowledged the fact that they are just a big over grown child that I have to watch like a two year old? Fuck NO! Go be with your OW/OM who is your mirror image and see how that works for both of you!
    We will NEVER get a coherent reason for their cheating because it exposes them for the shallow, needy, immature child they really are and even they can’t admit that to anyone, much less the partner they have been duping for years into taking care of them as if they were a child! The running theme in most of our relationships is that if we were honest with ourselves, we would realize the only adult present was the faithful spouse! But we became boring what with worrying about all those adult things in life! By golly, they wanted someone who would be exciting and take risks just like them cause that’s FUN! What these pecker heads don’t understand is they are hooking up with someone who is just as idiotic as they are and irresponsible! I can’t tell you how many times my Ex tries to reach me to get answers to the most BASIC questions in regards to paying bills, filing taxes etc! Apparently his “so smart” (his words) Schmoopie isn’t so good at day to day mundane tasks like paying his bills! It’s really all too funny actually. I kept the household running and did all the heavy lifting. Apparently I made it look easy and now he realizes it takes a certain amount of brain power to accomplish these things. Neither he or Schmoopie possess that apparently! Me? I don’t give a rats ass about his troubles! He made his choice and now he can live with it!

    • Roberta, I know you are right, I know it I know it I know it…


      I have not yet forgiven myself for throwing my very best loving, devoted, committed, decent self at that “train wreck” of a husband over and over and over again.

  • CHUMP: Why did you do this to me?

    CHEATER: I don’t care about you and I deserve happiness.

    ~ IMHO there’s our closure. Pure and simple.

  • Yes…I got, “you know, I was just bored”.

    Closure – is that terrible ‘aha moment’ when you realize that you invested 20 years with a fucktard…later followed by understanding that he has no empathy and no remorse…GAWH.

    Closure – is understanding that there is nothing wrong with you.

    Closure – is accepting the truth that the marriage with the fucktard was terrible for almost all of the time. In CL terminology, that day when all of the spackle falls off the walls.

    Closure – (or maybe it is karma?) – is seeing your EX marry a younger version of himself , and not being surprised that he is still not happy.

  • I think we seek closure for the same reason we would like an apology –it would be nice to live in a world where there is fairness and justice and a sense of responsibility for your actions. But we don’t live in that world — we live in a world full of many selfish, greedy, entitled people who only want to do whatever is best or most convenient for them.


    This makes you feel powerless. Also, no one wants to feel conned. We want to find a reason for redemption, because that would mean we didn’t make a total mistake. But anyone can be susceptible at some time in their life. We have to really forgive ourselves for making such a terrible mistake and giving some clown too many benefits of too many doubts.

    You can only control your own actions. It doesn’t really matter why he or she did whatever it was they did. The only thing that matters is what do you do, once you know the truth. Can you pick up the pieces of your life, sort them into keep or discard piles, and then take the pieces you keep with you to help you build a new life and a new reality. You can choose to forgive yourself, you can decide how to behave yourself. You can choose to move forward, or stay fixated on the unchangeable past.

    There is a line from an old song, sung by Crystal Gayle that I love, and feel is appropos for this attitude: “It’s been a too long time, with no peace of mind, and I’m ready for the times to get better.”

  • Bottom line is we GIVE closure to our low life, cheating POS by doing the following: file for divorce, get everything, the block them! Absolutely NO CONTACT! Closure will have to be the “gift” we give to ourselves! These sniveling, whining, over grown children don’t deserve to lick our boots! Let them GO! Then go and have a wonderful, non chaotic life!

    • After D-Day, my then-19 year old daughter texted me and said that ex and his two AP’s (who had become “family friends” to all of us including the children over the decades of their affair(s)) were “not fit to lick our boots.” That phrase has always stuck with me. She will not speak the AP’s names (she simply calls them the Worms) and knew immediately that any chance of a continuing relationship with her father was dead.

      Our youngest son decided to never see his father again. He is now 16. Our oldest, now 26, was the first of many to tell me after D-Day that his father was a sociopath.

      Sometimes children can see so clearly. It took me years to accept what they instinctively knew– there was nothing there and no relationship to hold on to or even really explain….and the best thing was to accept that and move on.

  • “Resist the urge for closure, chumps. Relationship autopsies do not bring relationships back to life. And thank God, because imagine the Walking Dead nightmare that would be. (Actually, anyone who has experienced false reconciliation has lived exactly that nightmare.) These things are better left DEAD.”
    – Chump Lady

    Jud Crandall: “Sometimes, dead is better.” – from the movie Pet Sematary.

    Marrying (and then divorcing) a man with a huge, black hole where his heart and soul should be? Yeah, he’s a poster child, uh, I mean creature, for the Walking Dead.

    Congratulations on the final edit of your new book CL!
    A fried brain is definitely expected after that. Wishing a (long) moment of relief and relaxation. I’m eagerly waiting for a copy when it comes out. Hugs!

  • My STBX tried for 18 months to “extricate” himself from his affair. He really, really tried. He needws to be kind to Smoochie Pie because her mean and nasty husband would show her no affect. The poor dear.

    Finally, SP dumped him for someone else. He now has closure with SP, but has taken up comforting another whore that has an ungrateful husband. STBX is now trying to “extricate” himself from that relationship. No one appreciates his good deeds. Getting “closure” is such a bitch.

  • Yep. Pretty much this. No closure whatsoever. All I ever got was ‘I don’t know’ over and over when asked ‘WHY did you do this to me? Poor sausage had no idea why he was such a cock smooch. About a year ago I got what seemed like a sincere apology but by that time I didn’t really give a flying fuck.

    Loved…’Why would you put your head in that blender?’ Why indeed.

  • Closure with a cheater is like trying to get closure with a flesh eating bacteria, a used car salesman,a floating turd that clogs the toillet, a heart to heart talk with a grizzly bear, discussing the theft of your wallet with a pick pocket, or chatting with a vampire at dusk.

  • Some of the best advice my counselor gave me was “Don’t waste time trying to figure out why he did what he did. The real issue is figuring out why you stayed.”

    I still struggle with that a bit because it wasn’t like my ex admitted what he was doing. He was very good at lying about it. If I’d walked in on him in bed with someone else the decision to end it would have been much easier. I stayed because I believed in our vows, because I wanted to keep our family together, because I didn’t think I should give up just because I felt lonely. I had hope that things would change, I was definitely hooked on hopium.

  • Talking about the relationship is just an opportunity they will take to mindfuck you, drive the dagger in, and twist it. As I saw it said in a blog, they discarded you, so you discard them. End of story.

  • A few weeks after Dday, I confronted ex and told him that I had been a good, faithful wife for 20 years and didn’t deserve to be treated the way he was treating me. I’ll never forget how his face changed as he looked at me with ice cold hatred. I swear, it looked like he turned into an actual demon, like his very face changed into pure hatred and contempt. And with icy venom he replied that, “Oh yeah, you were such a great wife and I was such a terrible husband, well, it’s not that simple.”

    I’ve never received much more in the way of an apology or closure, although I did receive a lot more abuse. That’s pretty much all ended over the past year or two, but I know he still blames me, he still spins and twists reality so that he didn’t do anything wrong and he still truly believes that he is a great person, an actual inspiration that others should look up to.

    • GIO, I drove over to our house shortly after our separation to explain to my ex why he needed to support me with a decent amount of monthly maintenance. I made the case for having always supported him, never cheated on him, taking care of things while he traveled for his career. I told him he wouldn’t be where he was if it wasn’t for me. He said “I know.” Then he offered close to what I was asking for maintenance. Guess that’s the closest I’ll ever get to an apology.

      Anyway, I can relate to seeing their mask slip. It was absolutely awful seeing the look of pure disgust on my husband’s face once when we were on what was to be our last trip. I felt that something was going on with him, and even the long-time friends who were with us noticed his behavior was different. We all went out to eat one night and my husband drank too much. Before we went to bed that night I caught him looking at me with pure contempt in his eyes. It really unnerved me, but I didn’t say anything. At the time I didn’t know he’d already made plans to leave.

      • Lyn, the truth comes out with these cheaters when they start to drink. My ex was not a drinker but when he did indulge particularly towards the end, he said things to me that upset me enormously and horrified me. He also swore at me often and I can honestly say that he never swore in front of me and particularly our kids. I also got the very cold and empty stare and the shrug of the shoulders every time I wanted to speak with him. It was like a toddler throwing a tantrum. So I knew something was happening but I wasn’t sure what. Now I know he was already planning to get rid of me.

        • It’s ironic about the drinking, Maree, cause I have never seen the ex drunk. In almost 20 years. But apparently when he was around the whore he was very drunk, a lot. That tells me yeah, they absolutely KNOW what they are doing is wrong. No matter how many times you deny it. It’s a great relationship when you have to get shit faced to be around someone.

            • OMG, I will never ever ever ever forget those beautiful blue eyes turn completely dark with contempt towards me. I had never seen that face before. His eyes were dark black – I swear it. And, he just – well, HATED me. That was obvious. I had NO clue what was going on. What a horrible memory I’ll always live with.

  • Just what I needed – thanks Tracy! I could read this every day. I guess that I wish I hadn’t been chumped and married someone else. I thought I married someone else. For 30 years I thought I married someone else. Damn….

  • I actually did ask my ex husband before he became my ex “why did you choose me to do this to” and all I got from him was “pffft” and then he turned and walked away with looking back over his shoulder and he has been no contact since. Just when I think I am at meh, something sets me back and to be honest 2 weeks ago I sent a ranting email to him which I do now regret because he would be loving my pain. I don’t know if he received it but it felt good to put into words all of the things I never had a chance to say because I was shut out and shut down by the ex, our 2 adult kids and all of their associates. I was literally sent to Coventry. So yes, WHY did he do this to me, someone he has known for 46 years.

  • My closure was: ‘to do this (divorce you and marry Schmoopie) I have to hate you’ and ‘you’ll never see your daughter again.’
    The hate campaign as well as the alienation campaign began in earnest from that interaction. Even went after my professional license–as if that would be successful.
    At enough meh that not too much caring about the karma bus, but he’s fired publicly from two high profile Academic positions, though still considers himself an elder statesman on College policy; lies in his credentials but I don’t have the care or energy to out him. Makes for good laughs when he claims relationships with well known academics to whom he was introduced by me.
    As for the then 12 year old daughter: free tuition undergrad at the bush league college where he then worked but he took out a Parent Plus loan. And is doing his best Narc job now that he’s unemployed and can’t afford his house, his car, gambling/porn issues, whatever to work over my daughter to pay that Parent Plus loan back. BTW, she’s now 25, a graduate student (tuition now paid via my Dad’s prudent investing) and my new non-narc spouse and I are helping her with appropriate budgets both time and moneywise.

    Also trying to convince daughter that paying back an enforced loan to one’s parents does not effect one’s credit rating. Young woman lost a lot of key learning years on how to be a woman when cut off from me, and Schmoopie is hardly a role model for young women, at least not in a therapy position one can legally file taxes on.

    • Second Lady, well done on your family’s part!

      How did you deal with the smear campaigns? I am dealing with them now. My ability to get a job in my profession is very likely being hampered by the defamation campaign waged by my STBX. It wasn’t enough for him to cheat, steal, alienate the kids from me, and repeatedly trounce me in court. He is still harassing me several times per day! He demands that I immediately get a job at the very high salary he wants me to earn (so that he can reduce support to zero) in the place he wants, but sabotages my efforts to find family-sustaining work. Talk about demanding that you have your cake and eat it, too!


    My XPOS cheater was told by a dear friend/psychologist that if he wanted to be with me like he said he did then he had to immediately call stripper with me listening and break it off with her. No need to explain anything; nothing was owed to her. And never to talk/text/email/see her again. The End.

    Wellllll…..jump to about 5 minutes after we hung up phone with psychologist friend (pf) and cheater told me that he knows better than pf and needs to do it in person because the stripper is batshit crazy and he doesn’t want her to do donuts on his lawn and destroy it or spray paint his garage with ‘fuck you’ on it.

    I had a difficult time with that but I BELIEVED!!!! Yes, I BELIEVED!!!
    Yea……..I was an idiot.
    We all should know the outcome on this one. He mindfuck manipulated me into fake ass reconciliation and of course was still fucking the stripper.

  • I’ve gotten multiple reasons, which are all hilarious. My favorite which I’ve mentioned before is women aren’t built for monogamy. Some of the others were marriage is just another way for men to keep women oppressed, she needed her sexual freedom, etc. What bothers me about her “reasons” are she wraps them in pseudo feminism which I find offensive. I was raised by a single working mother who taught me all about equality between the sexes and I’ve instilled those same values in our daughter.

    I would have respected her had she just said I was horny, they were hot and I wanted to instead of all the BS she fed me.

      • She’s also said that once her sex drives drops in a few years and I’ve taken my “revenge” by sleeping around that we’ll get remarried because we have true love. Her bestfriend is just as nuts, she actually had the nerve to tell me “I should have fought for my wife”. I wonder if I was supposed to fight after her friend’s offer of “best BJ of my life” months before I found out.

        They both live in a fantasy land, where husbands fight their wives lovers for her affection or people reunite after some horrible event and its some huge romantic moment. Sorry life doesn’t work like that.

        • Be careful, Fiddler. Nutjobs like that WILL come back around when the pickings get slim, looking for that nice dependable cake they left on the counter. They’ll toss you in a dumpster and expect to find you still there waiting for them. Just say no.

        • Fiddler, my STBX’s mistress told me that if she were me she would ‘fight for my husband.’ I had no interest in fighting for my husband in the style of some bad Hollywood historical piece. (I’m not sure if she wanted to challenge me to a duel involving pistols, swords, or just drinking vessels. She probably preferred the drinking vessels as she got multiple DUIs.) I was hoping that he would attach himself to her permanently so that he would move to her state of residence, far, far away, but I had no such luck, he broke up with her and he’s still here, across the street, chasing other prospective sexual partners.

          • Can we fight with her? As in…put her in a body bag when she steps foot on your property? Ditto the fuckwit ex of yours.
            Thats the only fighting that needs to be done.

    • I am a feminist and those are the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard. Monogamy is a CHOICE.. just like loving is a CHOICE. You either have control over yourself or you don’t.. you are either mature or you aren’t. You deserve better Fiddler and I know you know it. Your daughter is lucky indeed.

  • I didn’t think you loved me

    Have you also told the cheater to shut the fuck up about how the cheating made them feel horrible, ashamed,etc? Really? Ashamed? Then why was is so shameful to keep fucking people, who weren’t always ME btw, for 75% of the marriage?! Finally tossed the STFU because it’s just so insulting. C’mon! To be deceitful in a marriage is exciting and FUN!!!! Just ask the twats on Reddit.

    • ANC, did the dirtbag actually expect you to soothe and comfort them? Relieve their shame? Or was that just the warmup for the Sad Sausage Show?

      • Wow! bingo.

        It’s the sad sausage warm up.

        I’m using a family counselor with cheater to craft the get the fuck out of my life and mitigate the kid carnage. Yesterday he proclaims he doesn’t know what to do (about getting his ass gone) and tells the counselor that his family is supporting us by not supporting us because I, ANC, need to state to these clowns what the outcome of this shit will be (in order for him NOT to be the bad guy, but the sad victim. ). The counselor told him that was unacceptable to essentially throw me under the bus and act as if he had no accountability.

        • “The counselor told him that was unacceptable to essentially throw me under the bus and act as if he had no accountability.”

          Well at least there were two adults in the room. If you are the designated bearer of bad news to his family, be sure to include that statement.

    • I felt like telling my cheater to shut the f–k up after he royally (figuratively) screwed me in court last week, and then, walking out of court said, ‘Sorry.’ Sorry is as sorry does. I would have respected him more if he had told me, ‘I screwed you. Hahaha!’ than a very unrepentant ‘Sorry.’

  • “Resist the urge for closure, chumps. Relationship autopsies do not bring relationships back to life. And thank God, because imagine the Walking Dead nightmare that would be. (Actually, anyone who has experienced false reconciliation has lived exactly that nightmare.) These things are better left DEAD.”

    This reminded me of some words of wisdom from Emmett Fox, a spiritual teacher in the early 1900s, that are relevant to trying to get closure from a dead relationship:

    “Don’t be a grave robber. Let corpses alone. In due course, nature disposes of such remains if they are left undisturbed. Every time you dig up an old grievance or an old mistake by rehearsing it in your mind, or still worse, by telling someone else about it, you are simply ripping open a grave – and you know what you may expect to find. Live the present. Prepare intelligently for the future – and let the past alone. This is what Jesus meant when he said, “Let the dead bury their dead.” Make a law for yourself today that you are not going to touch mentally any negative thing that has happened up to the present moment — and keep that law.. Life is too precious for grave robbing. The past is past – liquidate it.”

    • Hmmmm. No. I still tell anyone who will listen (my new real estate agent, my new neighbor :-)) what an alcoholic cheating asshole my stbx is. I suppose when he is dead (and I pray daily for that) I may go that ‘dead bury dead’ route. Until then – I will smear him with truth any time I can.

    • Unfortunately, the Past still keeps rearing his ugly head. It’s like the movie Ground Hog Day–the past keeps repeating every. single. morning. Every time I think that I’ve escaped his clutches (as much as one can if he/she shares kids with an abuser) he draws me back in on some imaginary accusation. It’s also hard to forget the past when poverty (caused by abusive Cheater) is your and your children’s present and future.

  • Ah, the “what we have is real” line. As humans, we have the capacity to form “real” connections with a wide variety of other humans. We are emotional beings with a deep capacity for love and connection. But as *married* humans, we have an obligation to filter and select appropriate relationships that do not compete with or harm the marriage. When you open the door to a “real” connection in secret and with someone you’re attracted to, what the hell do cheaters think is going to happen? A spouse should protect the marriage by keeping that door closed, not opening it to new and “real” connections.

  • Brilliant, Anita! I love how my husband went to one of those “cumdumpsters”. He said it was because I wouldn’t do that for him!

    Doesn’t he understand he made a commitment to me when he became my husband? I shouldn’t have to do such a thing to be worthy of his love after I got married to him – so demeaning! He should be happy to go to work, pay my bills, and be happy with the affection I decide to give him. Am I right, ladies?

  • You are so right, LadyStrange! It’s so great to continually talk about how awful the ex is and tell everyone my version of the truth until the day he dies!

    • The cheating crapweasel who stole 16 years of my life IS dead, but I’ve got no problem correcting the narrative he left behind. You see, I did NOT cheat on him ever, much less with every man I worked with. I was NOT mentally unstable. I was NOT abusive in any way. I did NOT clean him out in the divorce. When I run across people I knew back when who say that they had a hard time believing the things he said about me, I set them straight. Oh, yes I do. It is helpful that he burned bridges and pissed off or alienated most of the people he knew before the Karma Bus dragged his pathetic carcass off to the Gates of Hell.

  • I broke up with my cheating ex immediately after finding out and almost forced him to meet up with me so I could get “closure”. I’m glad I did meet with him because I went from thinking he was still a good person who made a horrible choice that cost him his girlfriend and self respect to realizing the monster that he truly was. Upon this final confrontation I expected a sincere apology and let me tell you it was anything but that.

    “We had such different interests”- Uh that may be true and now I realize we have extremely different morals and values
    “You never sent me nudies”- I didn’t know that was part of my job as a girlfriend.. the internet is a scary place
    “I wish it wasn’t like this”- Then you shouldn’t have made it like this
    “If you hadn’t gotten so busy with school this never would have happened”- Actually if you never cheated this wouldn’t have happened
    “I was unhappy what did you expect me to do”- Um… talk to me?

    Oh the best one.. I tried explaining to him that the std he gave me may have cost me my fertility
    Him: “Uh ya i know I have it too”- NO SHIT YOU GAVE IT TO ME

    It was then that I realized what kind of disordered demon really was lurking under the mask of what I thought was a “nice guy”.

    • You never sent me nudies? That’s a craptacular reason to cheat. Good call that you didn’t.

      So the bottom line was that you should have given up all your interests in favor of his. Sent photos he could circulate at will. Not educated yourself. Not noticed his infidelity. Kept him happy (whatever that meant at the moment). And not contracted the std he had and knew about, but presumably didn’t think to mention to you, his significant one, until it showed up on your lab report. Not a nice guy.

      • Wow reading that makes it hard to believe that this actually happened. That those things were actually said. The worst is when people say he was a good person who just did a shitty thing. No.. he didn’t even have the decency to apologize for what he did. I can’t even fathom it. My closure was realizing he is sick and walking away.

        • Good call. No need to give up your interests and talents or values to let someone feel better about their lack of character. Good luck to you.

  • no reason would ever be good enough to provide ‘closure’. they don’t really feel that they’ve done anything wrong. they’ve got a story that they tell themselves which absolves them of any responsibility for their actions. this is why you hear things like the ridiculous reasons given above.

    their narrative is very different from ours, and nothing we do or say will ever make them see our point of view. unfortunately, it seems like many of us waste a lot of time trying to understand them.

    us asking them to show some real remorse is a bit like them asking us to acknowledge that we ‘made’ them cheat somehow.

    what many cheaters want, i think, is to be free to continue their narrative. their journey from the depths of unhappiness, loneliness, trying so hard and being cruelly misunderstood, to making a “mistake” (or two…), to redemption in the form of lifelong romance with schmoopy, or a guilt-free life of commitment-free sexual freedom, in which they can helicopter-parent their kids (when it suits them) and walk away feeling virtuous. they don’t want us bringing them down because it doesn’t make them feel very nice.

    eventually you just have to admit defeat, let them go and make something better of your life.

    • “their narrative is very different from ours, and nothing we do or say will ever make them see our point of view.”
      Exactly. Expecting a disordered person to accept any form of blame or responsibility for anything is like expecting a person who has been blind from birth to describe what a tree looks like. It is simply beyond their capability.

  • When I caught him in bed with an internet skank – as bad as that was – that was as good as the whole scenario got. It wasn’t enough that he was so cold to my feelings, all the false reconciliations where he never intended to be faithful, ensuring that I would be devastated time and time again. The horrible moment of clarity when it dawned on me that, not only didn’t he love me, he had to concern, regard or respect for me whatsoever. I meant less than nothing.

    I think I stayed as long as I did because I NEEDED him to take that back. I needed to be able to say there was some genuine feeling for me somewhere. It was the need to salvage something from all those years.

    Of course, I didn’t get those needs met either – got the reverse a thousand times over. I finally gave up the fight, let it go and went on with my life knowing I would never get an ounce of remorse from him for all the hurt he so callously put me through.

    Now, I could care less if I ever get an apology – sincere or otherwise. I’m whole again, and I managed that all by myself.

  • One thing missing, CL mentioned how the cheater gets ammo from RIC sites. The worst is when they go to therapy to win you back while continuing to cheat because they learn therapy speech.

    I call this therapatized cheater speak, my favorite bullshit therapatized speech from Saddam was; “I don’t feel safe with you”. The next day I’d wake up with him in my bed and he’d insist it was the only place he “felt safe”. He was very fucked up.

    So why didn’t he feel safe with ME anymore? I guess it was because I insisted on divorce. I was the one that wasn’t safe, the fucker nearly put my head through a wall, got me arrested by lying when he attacked me, punched himself in the face expecting to get me arrested again (he bruised his hand so bad he realized that wouldn’t work), and ultimately he pulled a gun with suicide and murder on his mind. WAIT, he told me on the phone that he never intended to kill himself or me, but he could only explain it in person – no thanks, never need to hear that explanation, therapatized asshole.

    See, therapists talk about how you don’t feel safe sharing yourself with someone because you don’t trust them. So maybe I got this all wrong! Saddam really did not feel safe with me because he knew he couldn’t trust me to lay down and be fucked over by him anymore. Saddam didn’t feel safe anymore because I insisted on divorce…who the fuck knows. I certainly didn’t feel safe with Saddam. The ONLY thing my ex got from IC and MC were new ways to manipulate me. Don’t let your cheater do this, when you hear key words from therapy from you cheater, they are bullshit.

    • There’s actually evidence that therapy makes sociopaths worse by honing their manipulation skills (this theme crops up in the last year or so of the Sopranos, which is where I first heard about it).


      The sociopath enjoys playing victim and the attention that they get from this
      The sociopath will lie to the counsellor. The counsellor can be manipulated
      The counsellor will not be working with the full facts and the truth, because the sociopath only gives their side of the picture, and the counsellor has no clue about the disordered mind of the sociopath
      The counsellor will empower the sociopath, which could in turn increase abuse towards the victim
      Normal people CONNECT with others, sociopaths do not connect with others in the same way. They are always focused on themselves, what is in it for them. Always manipulating, always monitoring, observing, calculating.

      The last point is an important one. It is the lack of TRUE CONNECTION that a sociopath has, that makes effective counselling almost impossible.

      • When the sociopath is a psychologist themselves, it is even worse. They seek out a therapist with lesser credentials, manipulate them hideously, and come home with all sorts of theories of how you are unhinged and unworthy of squat. Not pretty at all.

  • Guess what? If someone is cheating on you, YOUR RELATIONSHIP ISN’T MEETING EITHER OF YOUR NEEDS. Get it? I’m SO SICK OF HEARING how a cheater is just worse than the devil, and that they are fucking the lowest scum of the earth, and how DARE they not be satisfied within the relationship!!!! HOW FUCKING DARE THEY!!!

    Should they have broken up with you before cheating? Of course. Should one or both of you in the relationship be more and more aware that things aren’t working? Yep. Are all cheaters nothing but careless, flippant assholes? NO. Sorry, it’s not black and white that way. I know you don’t want to hear it because you’re the VICTIM in this!! You’ve been WRONGED!! YOU ARE THE ONE THAT MATTERS HERE!!!!

    Fuck that noise. Every situation is different from the next one. I read this column and while 1/3 of it is helpful or rings true, the rest of it just sounds like jaded, angry, I’m-the-victim, look-what-they-did-to-me hatred.

    The truth is, if your SO cheated on you, there IS a HUGE PROBLEM IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP. No, it’s not “your fault”, but you ARE a PART of this situation. Guess what. Not getting needs met is VALID. If your partner sustained a long time of waiting for you to “change” or for things to “get better” and they just never ever did, HOW SURPRISED CAN YOU REALLY BE if they strayed? It’s not the optimal choice as far as you are concerned, but when someone decides to cheat, many times that person literally doewsn’t know what else to do. So they make a huge mistake. And many regret it and wish they could take it back, or that it never happened. I bet you don’t believe me! Cheaters don’t have human feelings!! They’re cheaters after all! The most abominable, diabolical thing on the planet! They’re so bad that you don’t HAVE to pretend they’re human! You don’t HAVE to look at your relationship problems anymore! Why? Because the CHEATER just rendered your whole relationship NULL and VOID! GAME OVER! NO MORE having to wonder exactly what the problems were. The problem only was that one of you was a CHEATER!!

    How convenient.

    • “many times that person literally doewsn’t know what else to do”

      Go to therapy? See a divorce lawyer? Take charge of their own happiness honestly without risking another person’s health and emotional well-being?

      How is that they don’t know what to do, but they have the wherewithal to make secret dating profiles? Sounds like agency to me.

      Look, a chump might suck. They might be an absolutely DREADFUL partner. There’s no excuse for cheating.

      We don’t *make* people abuse us. You can’t “drive” someone to drink. Or “make” them hit you. Those are horrible choices that abusive, selfish people make.

      If cheaters have feelings — and I’m sure they do, I don’t argue every cheater is a sociopath — get help for that shit and realize that you destroyed the relationship you’re in. You’re not entitled to reconciliation. It’s pretty simple.

    • See, here’s the thing–there is NO WAY to meet a habitual cheater’s needs. They NEED novel genitals. So unless you’re capable of stem cell grafting additional penises or vaginas onto yourself, and transmogrifying into an alter-ego, you aren’t capable of meeting their needs. And chances are, they weren’t meeting the chump’s needs for intimacy, or help parenting, etc. So EVEN if you are right (and research does not support you), two people’s needs weren’t being met, but only one cheated. Why? Right, poor character.

      • Good point, Tempest. I often felt there was nothing I could have done to save my marriage except turn into another person. I lived much of my married life feeling like I wasn’t exactly what my husband was looking for. It’s so much better being on my own and feeling valued by myself. Sometimes I tell people it took being thrown away to learn how to value myself.

    • Your argument has some merit. So please tell me, what is so hard about saying, “Hey honey (or bitch/bastard), I have been waiting a long time for things to get better and now I am looking at other women(men) they way I should be looking at you. With that in mind, I am going to separate from you until we can figure it out and don’t expect me to be faithful because I am NOT feeling it anymore. Good bye.”

      Much easier than the lies and deceit that go along with cheating and it gives your partner the opportunity to make that choice, too!

      • And what’s really nice about being forthright, gdmmt, the partner knows where they stand and don’t have to read anyone’s mind. Because guess what, the chump, 9 times out of 10, doesn’t even KNOW there is a PROBLEM as serious as warranting a FUCKING AFFAIR from someone they trust to BE FORTHRIGHT!

          • Me, too. Instead of having it cost my child her sense of reality. We both ended up with c-PTSD which we will have to manage for years to come.

            So GMMT, I DO own my parts in the relationship-the oart that DID ask, the part that DID have and seek honest conversation, and what did it get me and my kid? A couple hundred self harm scars, tens if thousands in therapy bills and a shit ton of heartache.

            Not so harmless….

    • Wasn’t aware that cheaters had such little intelligence that they can’t utter the words “Things are not working between us, we need to work on things” and if that fails, then say “I think we need to divorce” with a fair settlement. Instead, you get to play the “Hey I can fuck over anyone I please because its all about me and my needs and noone else matters, AND YOU’RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME.”

      Thus, I will call cheaters the scum of the earth and they deserve nothing less than a painful death and all assets relinquished to their faithful partner. If you don’t like it – you can go and crawl back in the scum-hole you came from and cry like the little bitch whore you are. I can bet you’re probably an OW or OM who got shanked by a fuckwit.

    • gdmmt, are you for fucking real? Who the fuck is saying how dare a cheater not be satisfied in the relationship?

      Let me break it down for you. If your needs aren’t being met in the relationship, communicate this with your SO so they are fucking aware of how you feel. Cheaters have no problem communicating their woes to their AP so why not their SO?

      If you no longer wish to be in the relationship GTFO!!! Pretty simple really. No?

      There is no justification for cheating other than poor character. End of.

    • gdmmt

      “No, it’s not “your fault”, but you ARE a PART of this situation.”

      That’s where your premise falls apart completely. The assignment of causality for someone else’s choices of actions based on contribution to a given scenario is logically unfounded.

      Case in point: if I call you a misguided troll in this discussion, I’ve contributed negatively to our online conversation here; however, I’ve no control over your reaction. If you decide to then respond with a litany of obscenities rather than logical discourse, it makes you a jerk, but it doesn’t make me a cause of your character-based decision to curse me out online.

      This holds true for any escalation in a relationship dynamic, including the abusive behavior of infidelity.

      Insert any number of comments her from reputable psychologists regarding the logical takedown of relationship contribution bring mistaken for the causality in infidelity (my personal favorite is that in a broken relationship dynamic, when only one person cheats, contribution becomes a totally illogical explanation; lack of character on the cheater’s part, however, becomes a completely logical explanation in that circumstance).

  • oh yes, the boys and I are doing so much better now. I am still struggling financially because Diablo doesn’t think he needs to pay child support but we are much happier and relaxed now that we don’t have to put up with his childish moods, bad tempers and belittling to make himself feel better. the boys are doing much better then I expected…..from their own thoughts they tell me its not like he was ever really home anyway.

    she has no idea what she “won”. they are both idiots. she got his name tattooed on her chest under a poorly cover up of her last “tru wuv” who wasn’t her husband after 4 months of true bliss. who the fuck does that? oh but it impressed Diablo, she loves him so much more then mrsvain. Stupid asses. the both of them. he thinks that “proves” she loves her? you know after she had all sorts of guys names tattooed on her body and none of them being her own husbands name that she is legally married to. heck, I could have done that will a permanent marker if that is all it took. lol…I honestly do not understand ghetto love.

    but then again, I actually think she is perfect for him. he is not really a bad person, he is just weak, spineless and shallow. a worm who has to be told what to do and what it means to be a good decent person. I just got tired and was physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausted to keep chasing my husband down and dragging him home reminding him how much the boys and I loved and needed him. she really is on the same page as he is, same morals, values and standards (none in other words), no expectations or accountability. she is perfectly fine living in the car, or sponging off other peoples generosity. she doesn’t care if she pays her bills, sees her children or has any type of job/retirement. she has no problem with his drinking, in fact she drinks with him or with him throwing away money on beer, car stereos, or worthless vehicles he is “going to” fix up and sell. plus she enjoys going to the same loser druggies party people that he wants to hang around, she doesn’t judge people the way I do, she respects everyone (ya, right)

    I wanted more then just the next beer bottle. I am most happy when my yard, house and garage are cleaned, the bills are paid and there is food in the pantry then I am visit losers who always have a hand out and think it is ok for a married man with little children to stay out all night, spending his paycheck on alcohol and whatever else. it was super painful at first but I don’t care if they stay together forever now. as long as he is with her then he will leave us alone, no contact because SHE doesn’t want him to talk to me, see me or be in the same room as me. we don’t need him or the child support to put up with his girlfriends crazy shit. we are doing good.

    • mmrvain, I’m so happy for you! Sounds like you’re doing well and much healthier than when you were living with the craziness of a cheater.

  • Yes, I wanted an explanation for the epic destruction of me, our 25 year so-called “marriage,” the double life, the incredible lies, the explosion of our children’s world and his relationship with them, and the unbelievable gaslighting he and AP’s engaged in with me and even our children.

    All I got was: “there is no explanation that would make sense now.”

    Kindest words he ever spoke I guess, and it was one of the only truths that passed his lips to me in all those years. But of course it also allowed him to continue with a perfect track record of secrecy and misdirection, his specialty in life.

  • Another quick point:

    I think that true closure can come once you have grieved; and I do NOT mean grieve the relationship.

    I mean after productively grieving the loss of who *YOU* were; the more innocent you who entered into the relationship with an abuser. Not only do I think it’s ok to grieve that loss, I think it’s healthy, and essential, and far more productive than grieving the loss of a partner (who never actually was that partner), the loss of a dream (of a cheater-free relationship, which was based on a false premise on the part of the cheater), or the loss of the relationship (which was never a true relationship, because it had a cheater in it).

    Ok, I’m done now!


  • I SOOOOOO needed to read this today! My story just keeps getting better and better by the day with the cheater…. The ass FORGED my name on bank loans and I still could not bring myself to doing much about it for the sake of “HE IS THE FATHER OF MY GIRLS”….. I need to read more shit like this and I LOVE the ending part! LOVE it. I may read it every day for my own insanity!

  • Here it is, straight from a horse’s mouth (or maybe the other end):

    “For 2 years I clung to what I thought were my real reasons. I’m bipolar, I’m BPD, abandonment issues, couldn’t say no, people pleaser, blah, blah, blah….BLAH and now I think it was all CRAP. Want to know why I really did it? I wanted to and it was fun. That’s it. So simple. It’s taken me 2 years to be able to utter these words out loud and I choke on them when I say them but they are true.

    Now I can cover all this up with bullshit and say I have poor coping skills, was an abused child, whatever helps me sleep at night but none of it is true. I knew darn well what I was doing was wrong which is why I hid and lied about it. I wanted what I wanted when I wanted it and I didn’t care who I hurt to get it. I rationalized, justified and lied to myself to make this okay. All I cared about was me, me, me, me….ME.”

    The sentiment is absolutely sickening, but I kind of appreciate the lack of B.S.

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