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Dear Chump Lady, I’m considering just giving up

churchill_neverDear Chump Lady,

I’m struggling.

We have been married 5 years. He’s been cheating for 4. First it was with his boss and then with a secretary. The affair with the secretary is still going on.

I had NO idea. I was blindsided. I thought we were really, really happy. He was charming and handsome and fun. I trusted him completely. I bragged about him to my friends for being such a great family man.

One night, when I was putting my 3-year-old to bed, he told me that he hadn’t gone to Dairy Queen like Daddy said — that he had been at “Mabel’s” house. I checked our cell records, googled the number, and found the woman. I knew her; she had actually been at our baby shower. On D-day I was still recovering from giving birth to our second son — I was breastfeeding a 5-month old baby.

For the next few weeks and months, the truth trickled out: the romantic weekend away while I was 9-months pregnant, them taking my older son out for public outings on several occasions, she came to my home when I was teaching night classes so she could hold our new baby in my living room. It is a long-term, serious, physical and emotional affair.

That was a year ago. I’ve been pick me dancing ever since. He said he broke it off. I discovered several weeks later that he hadn’t. We tried it again. He sent her an email saying it was over. That email was fake. I filed for divorce and asked him to move out. He acted devastated but complied. He said it was over between him and the whore, but then I stopped by his new place and she was there. He acts sorry and begs me not to give up on him, and the cycle goes on for months. I work up my courage and gain some distance, then he acts sorry, and I back down and delay the divorce proceedings.

We’ve been going to marriage counseling for a year — and he points out the progress he’s made. And I go along with it, telling myself that he has made progress. He says he’s not seeing her, that he’s just texting and staying in touch because he is finding it hard to “close that door once and for all.” (Even as I’m typing this I feel like such a loser because even I don’t believe it.)

Here’s my question, I guess: I am seriously considering just saying, “Who cares.” The thought of divorcing, of 50/50 custody, of my children potentially living with that whore 50 percent of the time might be MORE painful than just sticking my head in the sand and moving on with our pleasant, pretend little life. My babies are so little, and the pain of being away from them is excruciating. (I tried to fight for full custody but he is an attorney in our little town and the judge refused to even listen to my testimony!) When I think that she may have the opportunity to hug and cuddle and do bath time with my young sons, I just can’t handle it. Am I nuts for contemplating this?


So Sad

Dear So Sad,

You aren’t nuts for contemplating it. But I want you to seriously weigh some other scenarios. Let’s play out the decision tree here.

1.) You stay with him and he continues to eat cake.

Pro: You get your “pleasant, pretend little life.” You get to hug, cuddle, and do bath time with your sons.

Con: You’re not preventing the OW from hugs, cuddles, or bath time with your sons. She’s already been in your home. You’ve already consented to his cake eating, and now you get to play marriage police. Do you ever leave your home? Does your husband ever leave? He’ll continue to cheat, based on four years of past behavior. The counseling is bullshit. He’s just “texting” and “staying in touch.” And some licensed therapist listens to that shit and continues to bill you? And doesn’t call him out on it and say “I can’t help you. You’re in an affair. Marriage counseling is pointless”?

Oh no, everyone is happy if you keep smoking the crack pipe of hopium. (And have the therapy bills to show for it.) You’re getting exposed to God knows how many STDs, and you get to live with misery and hypervigilance.

Unless you’re as pathological as he is, I can’t see how you can compartmentalize this into “pleasant.” He’s flagrantly disrespecting you and calling it “progress.”

You miss the lie, I get it. But I don’t think staying with a cake-eater is sustainable. It’s soul death by inches. SS, your soul MATTERS.

2.) You stay with him and he decides to dump you later.

Pro: Not much pro here, but you get to live the pleasant lie a bit longer.

Con: While he’s got you pick me dancing your heart out, he’s feathering his nest, moving assets, and moving out for Schmoopie, leaving you abandoned. If you think your legal case sucks now, try adding emergency temporary support orders.

3.) You divorce him and fight like hell.

Pro: You go on the offensive. You get the biggest, baddest, most respected divorce attorney in your county (who also knows the judge) and you gather all the “he went away with his mistress when I was 9 months pregnant” evidence.

He’s an attorney? Ask your attorney to depose his affair partners. See if he’s done anything shady with the money. (Ask for money spent on affairs back in the division of marital assets.) I’m wondering if you have some leverage on his ethics, as he’s a member of the bar. I’d hate for him to perjure himself…

Con: It’s expensive. And time consuming. And you might not win.

You may be cast as a bitter, scorned woman who is trying to punish him by taking away his children. IMO, you need to cast this as What Is Best For The Children — which is to have the mother who has raised them, and who has DEMONSTRATED that she’s invested the most time and care with them. You say, of course you want their father in their lives (eat that shit sandwich), but he’s so busy (with his fuckbuddies) that you’d be the most consistent parent.

You do NOT cast it as “Can You Believe What He Did to Me?!” I wish that mattered, but sadly from what I read here, it usually does not.

4.) You divorce him and accept 50/50.

Pro: It’s probably a short-lived arrangement. But the biggest pro of divorce is YOU DON’T LIVE WITH HIS CRAZY and you get to build a new life for yourself.

Con: He doesn’t pay child support. Which is usually the strategy of these fuckwits. And you don’t have the time you deserve with your small children.

However, I sincerely doubt this man wants preschoolers 50 percent of the time. So you must take the long view and DOCUMENT. Every time he hands them off to someone else. Every time he leaves them with you. Every time he puts his selfish whims above those of his kids. You document, document, document.

And then, after he’s hung himself with enough rope, you sue for custody. Now, you’ve got more evidence of how much he sucks and how reasonable you have been.

And while it is a big shit sandwich, many guy chumps have had to eat it and survived. And you will too. But really, I think it’s highly unlikely that your husband is single parent material, nor do I think it one bit likely that the OW wants to spend more than an hour with two preschool boys.

Small children are HARD. As moms, we love them, but really very few people want Cheerios ground into their carpets as a lifestyle choice. The first time someone vomits in her hair or has a potty accident, or wakes up with a night terror, the novelty will wear off.

Remember — you’re MOM. It’s primal. No one replaces you.

One last option here, SS — the Chump Lady Strategy.

If I were you, I would ask your husband for a post-nup. Gosh, you so believe all his sorry, sorry remorse, so you’d like to put that in writing with some guarantees. He’s never going to cheat again, right? So if he does, here’s a property settlement and a custody agreement written into a post-nup.

You make him sign that motherfucker and you “reconcile.”

That money you were going to spend on a divorce retainer? You spend on a private investigator.

That’s the best way I know to get the settlement you want. If he balks, then you’re looking at divorce anyway. Good luck.


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  • SS, so sorry you’re here, but much support coming your way.
    CL is so right, your husband is not going to want two little boys in his care 50% of the time. He will want access when it suits him, and for you to do the main care and hard yards…. He just wants the good times…. This is him , he proved this by going off with OW .
    If you don’t leave now and live a “fake life” it will come back to bite you bigger and harder…. Believe me I know…. I did it and it has bitten hard.

    • Me, too Bibi.

      I stayed in a miserable marriage because I was afraid to parent three young sons alone. Guess what? I’m parenting two teen (and one twenty-one with no fucking clue) sons alone. Only now, they’ve been witness to years of their father treating me like an annoying household appliance and me resentfully complying. My kids’ learned that women are only as good as they are useful to them.

      Their early foray into relationships with girls have been disastrous. I blame myself for modeling a horrific dynamic. If I could turn back time, I would have left in 2000 when I was 39, the first time I cried in a therapist’s office because I was married to an emotionally abusive man who I allowed to treat me like shit. She called me out on my marriage and instead of hearing her, I just stopped going.

      Divorce him. It’s going to hurt like a motherfucker, but I promise you will never regret doing it for your self worth or the psyche of your developing sons. Stay, and guaranteed you will soon be living my nightmare.

      Not leaving when I discovered I was married to an epic liar and emotionally abusive man is my biggest regret in life. They don’t change, and acquiescing to his bad character flaws is a spirit killer. I know this as truth.


      • Chutes and Ladders – this is me and my nightmare. I wish I had left 4 years ago when I found out. Now, I am sitting here after just receiving a call from him on a business trip saying he is with her (same person) and we need to talk. I feel sick. He has love bombed me for the past two weeks and I should have trusted my gut. I have finally accepted that I can’t go any lower and I am done. I don’t know why it has taken me so long and so much abuse. My poor kids. I don’t even know what to tell them, but this time it will be the absolute truth. and no more protecting him, or her. Bag up his belongings and see the lawyer tomorrow. It sucks.

        Thank you for sharing your story. Hugs.

        • Bechumped – what a coward. To call you while he’s away (with her) and drop that in your lap is beyond disgusting. She probably made him do it so he is trying to figure out how to take it back to keep you right where you are. Sound like he doesn’t want his comfortable little world to shatter.

          As devastated as you are, you need to go into divorce mode RIGHT NOW. Call a lawyer today. Get copies of your financials and get them to a trusted friend. Don’t waste any time bagging up his shit – that’s not your job. Get your hands on all the money you can. If he wants to “talk”, record the conversation. I don’t know how old your kids are, but have a conversation with them. Don’t let them be blindsided by this latest development.

          I’m so sorry you are faced with this right now. But find the strength and do all you can for you and the kids before he gets home. He’ll try to sweet talk you but remember – he’s the enemy. He thinks only of himself. You need to do the same. Wishing you the strength you’ll need in the coming days.

          • Uneffingbelievable.

            I just wanted to come back and say thank you. I have looked at your response many times the past few days and it has kept me strong and on track. I am hurting, my teens are hurting, but we will survive. Everyone on here is a testament to that.

            I am getting my ducks in a row and have supports in place. I was in denial for a long time, but I felt it coming… hopefully will feel some relief one day soon that I don’t have to keep all my fears and feelings bottled up anymore.

            I will be back. Thank you.

  • Awesome advice from CL. 50-50 isn’t a stable arrangement. Play the long game for best results. Two years is unlikely. Two years of hell no doubt, but you and your kids deserve better than a sham family filled with lies and sadness. I’m one of the chump dads who lost 80% of my time with my kids and paid the cheater and her AP tens of thousands of dollars in support for the privilege, and I survived and thrived. You will, too.

    Be brave. Pray for a strong and courageous heart. Wishing you endurance for the journey ahead.

    • I would just add that you should check with your attorney as to whether or not post nuptial agreements are enforceable in your state. In many states they are not due to “lack of consideration” despite the fact that the marriage itself is viewed as a contract. In my legal (and moral) opinion, fucking someone else while married behind that person’s back is a MAJOR breach of contract; therefore the old contract is gone and a new one (post nup) takes its place. Just had this argument with the ex supreme Court judge in my state. He smiled politely and said I was mixing contract law with religion, but my idea was “revolutionary”. Sigh.

        • Exactly! And why enter into the contract (marriage) in the first place if.the terms (vows) are unenforceable? There’s no longer any quid pro quo when you get chumped. How is that a “religious” argument? It’s simple contract law IMHO.

          • Interesting discussion. And it may explain why so many judges seem to discount infidelity in divorce cases.

          • You raise a very interesting point. I was married by a village mayor. In the mayor’s office. Zero religion. No priest, no nuns, nothing related to any sort of religious deity. So how the hell can a marriage contract with a freaking license paid to the county where the event(transaction) occured NOT be considered a legal contract????

            If we make it mandatory to legally document marriages with forms, witnesses at the clerk’s office, etc, in order to legally benefit (taxes, beneficiaries, etc) why would our legal system even think it’s a religious matter to get married?

          • If I get to the point of a trial with Durtbag, we are going to argue fraud. He was cheating the entire year + and had no intention of honoring the contract. He not only contributed nothing to the partnership, he stole from it financially, emotionally, and physically. The more I think about the idea of settlement and the longer time goes on (I am no contact 8 days now other than an unanswered grey rock text I sent him), the more the idea of giving a single penny to this user and abuser abhors me. And slut puppet will benefit also. I think I would rather give the money to my attorney. I doubt he is paying his.

            I very briefly entertained the idea of being a perpetual cake provider. Durtbag didn’t want a divorce (unless I would buy him a house and a car). I thought it might be easier to pretend and hope he would “come to his senses.” That’s crazy. All of us deserve better than that. Your children deserve better than that. Your sanity and emotional stability demands better than that. The farther you get away from the crazy, the more clearly you will see the best choice.

            They suck.

          • _esq, this is very interesting. I’ve been told the “contract” (which is what he now calls our 26 year marriage) is history because he doesn’t consider me his wife anymore, of course his affair has nothing to do with it. Also he doesn’t believe in contracts, so we should never have got married in the first place. Interesting that it should have taken him over two decades to figure that out.

            • Whether or not he agrees as to whether or not your marriage is a contract is irrelevant. A judge will decide. And I pray for you that post nups are enforceable in your state. Despite that, you can always divorce his sorry ass with a pit bull attorney and receive the settlement you’re entitled to. Hugs.

              • As an attorney, I’ve always avoided family law because I thought it was “depressing”. Being chumped could never happen to me, right? Particularly with a 23- 20 skank who didn’t even finish college. After suffering what I have and reading all the posts on CN, I think I’ve changed my mind. Seriously considering becoming one of those pit bull attorneys. For chumps only. Wonder how that would go over on my business cards. 🙂

  • Ya. I know that feeling when I read all their emails about how she would change my baby’s diaper, that the McDonald’s Sleeping Beauty Crown my daughter wore was bought by OW, about their trips to the park together while I was at work. The emails how they wanted my children and were going to make me pay them. And then I went to the attorney who said I might have to pay him child support and alimony. I kept digging and I got a lot of horrible dirt on OW and ex DH. I made a deal with the devil. I said I would play if he ditched other woman completely and then I’d share and play nice or otherwise I was going to make his life a living hell and was going to fight fight fight. And he took my deal and ditched her (she was married also with two kids) and moved on immediately to someone else but I was okay with that because I too just couldn’t accept that woman as my kid’s stepmom. But that’s what I did. I gave up some money and I took a gamble but in my case it work. I also had some serious serious dirt on them though and he knew it.

  • Dear So Sad,

    It is hard to see any good or joy coming out of staying with him.

    It is hard to see what the future holds if you leave, and this makes it scary. But there will be good and joy, sooner or later.

    If you leave, you’ll start to build a new life. Your kids will grow and go to school, and you’ll enjoy the time you put into your own life or job–if you leave. Shared custody will suck. But it will not suck as much as the “shared custody” situation you are in now. Once you leave, no one will bring the mistress around to your house while you are out! Your sons will meet the mistress (and her successors), but that is already happening.

    If you leave, your kids will grow up with one sane parent who models integrity. If you stay, your sanity will weaken, and your actions will undermine everything you teach them about integrity. They may know you are a good person, but they will also learn that being a good person means acting like a doormat They’ll grow up either to be doormats or to wipe their feet on other people. You are more than a doormat, and you want to raise sons who never treat other people like doormats. You need to leave the jackass who is wiping his feet on you in order to be the parent you truly want to be.

    Leaving means 2-5 years of real pain and difficulty. Not leaving means there is no endpoint to the really, really tough days.

    I wish I had left when my kids were as young as yours are now. It is easier for very young children to adjust to the realities of divorce than it is for kids whose memories are shaped by an intact nuclear family.

    Document, document, document, and accept that you won’t get everything you want or deserve, but really, this is not news. You are already getting less than you want or deserve. You can only get closer to the life you should have by leaving the one that is so terrible.

    Good luck. You are a strong person to have held up through so much ill-treatment. Please don’t call yourself a ‘loser.” He’s the “loser.” You are the champion–of your own heart, your kids, and your future.

    • “I wish I had left when my kids were as young as yours are now. It is easier for very young children to adjust to the realities of divorce than it is for kids whose memories are shaped by an intact nuclear family.”

      I’ve been thinking about this too. Thank you for all of it.

      • Absolutely an important point to consider. My son was eight when we separated, and he’s struggled terribly since he has vivid memories of our happy family together. Daughter was five and has no memories at all. She has fared very well compared to her brother.

        • Yes, so true @David — EXH#1 & I divorced when our boys were just shy of turning 9 & 3. Growing up, it has been much, much more harder on oldest than youngest because of what he remembered when we were a family. Younger son has never known anything else, which makes me sad.

          EXH#2 left last year and our Autistic daughter was almost 7. She has regressed in some ways, but overall, she has done very well adjusting You can’t miss what you didn’t have.

          @sosad : My heart breaks for you, truly!!! EXH#2 had DD around his OWhore-s within days of meeting them, knowing DD wouldn’t ever tell me because she’s non-verbal in some ways.

          I like ChumpLady’s idea of the post-nup, or Plan B— hire a shark in your county/municipality that isn’t going to play “old boy network”— isn’t there an attorney in your area that your husband doesn’t like? Or has lost to?

          ((((hugs)))) I wish you the best of luck, but I really hope you do not continue to do this to yourself and “play family”.

          Chump Lady is so right about that you don[‘t have any control or say-so about who your husband has around the kids. My younger son was almost 3 and it killed me to think about EXH#1’s OWhore playing Mommy to him, but I survived and so will you.

    • Sosad, I lived most of your story about 20 years ago. My infidelity spidey sense was tweaked and X denied, denied, denied when confronted. He refused marriage counseling. I stayed, mostly because I had a 3 year old and a 10 month old. Later I gave birth to a 3rd child. I stayed and he kept having affairs. I told myself I was giving the kids stability. They “needed” their father. I ignored all the red flags. I stayed. I dunked myself in denial every single day. I talked myself out of looking too closely and he gaslighted me until I thought up was down.

      And a few weeks before my 50th birthday he sent me an email that he was moving out the next day. He scurried out of our house before those three almost-grown kids were awake. He took his most recent OW to Europe while I stayed and dealt with a kid who was cutting herself and attempted suicide, and walked the other two through their emotional minefields. He hasn’t seen or spoken to two of the kids in the four years since. I stayed and I’ve tried to be the sane parent. It’s not easy and I feel completely stupid for throwing away those 20 years on him.

      Truly, if I could magically go back in time, I’d leave that useless mofo and take the consequences. I’m starting all over (finishing my degree, looking for a job after being a SAHM for two decades—yay me!) and I’ll be fine. But I’d really like those 20 years back.

        • It sounds like you’re wanting to pick the devil you know over the devil you don’t. The problem is that it’s actually the other way around; when you divorce. You know what you’re going to get (unpleasant as it may be). When you stay, you have no idea what kind of god awful shit your spouse will continue to put you through. And he will.

          • SoSad, I suspected my husband of cheating 12 years before D-Day….and he denied, denied,denied. I never caught him, but couldn’t shake the feeling. Eventually he convinced me I was crazy, but I consider that almost my “first” D-Day. Wish I had divorced him then, that I had the guts to stand up and say something wasn’t right and move on. But I didn’t. So…….

            Fast forward 12 years. My supposedly loving and devoted husband admitted he has been cheating on me ALL THAT TIME AND MORE, for over 15 years, with two co-workers….the two I suspected him of cheating with all those years ago. And he happily dumps me and moves on with one of them and plans to marry her within weeks of our split. I on the other hand am now 51 years old, and our children are now young adults and one tween. Like CatLady, my children now refuse any contact with their father after his double life and years of lies

            SoSad, here are your choices–do you divorce now, or do you allow him to waste more of your life, maybe even decades, before he inevitably leaves you or you have had enough? You know this story is not going to end well, but you have to understand that the ending will just get worse, not better, as the years go by.

            If my ex had had even a bit of compassion for me, he would have left me early on once he realized he was not stopping his affairs. But that is not what these particularly pathological types of narcissists or sociopaths do. They stick around, manipulating and destroying, before the grand finale and final exit. They insist on the most sickening and damaging scenarios possible. Then when it blows up horribly, they will still either vaporize into the ether and neither you nor your children will ever hear from them again, or they will go whole-hog-crazy fighting you. And your children will either disown him, disown you (if they fall for his shit, ask Maree how she knows), or just live in confused misery. Not many can navigate learning of a long-term double life and deceptions of one of their parents and handle it well. (How will your son feel when as a teen or young adult he remembers that his dad was having him lie to you about going to Dairy Queen while secretly taking him to “Mabel’s” house, and he puts together what that means?).

            SoSad, do it now and get it over with while you still have the best years ahead of you and your children are wtill young.

            And P.S. I am a lawyer, and the last thing the judges of my county want is to have a local attorney in front of them, especially as a party in a divorce or custody proceeding. And the last thing any lawyer wants is his or her sexual transgressions to be exposed in litigation for the court and all their colleagues to know and gossip about. Get a good divorce lawyer as CL said, follow his or her instructions to the T (they know what you can and cannot achieve, and they also how to present the dirt without looking vindictive etc), and get this thing done. The faster you do, the sooner you can get on with your authentic life. It’s what you and your children deserve.

      • Me too…..20 damn years. He slept with my friend when I was 4 months pregnant, another girl I didn’t know two years later, that girl told me about a girl before that…..and so the story goes. 5 affairs that I know of.
        We stay because:
        1. We want to keep our family intact….. The devil you know is better than the devil you don’t.
        2. We are gaslit into believing WE are the issue. Try harder chump!!
        3. We know they are cheating, but if he’s not leaving us there must be love…..they love us more than the AP ( I smell cake baking).

        I want my twenty years back too but the glass half full version of this is:
        1. I ate so much shit that I really appreciate my new life
        2. Our kids are adults or at least old enough to bow out and aren’t forced into a relationship with a disordered parent.
        3. I put in enough time to get a good settlement.

        Getting a good settlement is like winning a court case for being wrongly imprisoned for 20 years.
        His new schmoopie can work that shift now….. I’m out. I do relate though to giving up what some would call our best years on an asshole. I plan to make these my best years.

        • Of course, you learn later that while you wanted to keep the family intact, it’s already been blown up. The AP partner has been in your bed, your car and with your kids–or on the lovely Paris vacation with your spouse. The trust, the respect and the integrity that should exist between marriage partners is gone. If there is one thing I wish the newly chumped could understand from the beginning is that the first days after DDay, you have a lot of power. If you kick the cheater out, or if you go stealth mode and get your ducks lined up to file for divorce, you have levied immediate consequences before the cheater can regain the upper hand. If you don’t keep quiet about the infidelity but rather tell your family and closest friends, you have carved out the high road, in terms of living with integrity and the truth. And if you stay away from hopium dispensing marriage counselors and get into therapy with a professional who is committed to helping you grow–and helping you figure out how you can change your situation–you can start cutting through the mindfuck channel and the gaslighting and see how disordered the cheater really is. The terrific pain can fuel some righteous anger. Those who hope to save the marriage are far better served to be very, very serious about consequences and about taking time to assess what is really going on. A year or two in true no-contact separation will surely show how sincere the cheater is about “reconciling.”

          • “A year or two in true no-contact separation will surely show how sincere the cheater is about “reconciling.”

            LAJ this whole comment was absolutely point perfect. Especially this line. Chumps – PLEASE believe this.

            Cheaters seriously considering reconciliation would have NO PROBLEM WITH this directive. Please, please, please accept this statement at face value.

            During this time of no contact you, the chump, will also find if you truly want to reconcile as well. Clarity from separation is an amazing phenomenon.

        • I can relate to your story. My first d day way back then I consulted an attorney etc and because of where I lived at the time child support would have put us below poverty level. I stayed, I sacrificed because I married the man.
          I regret my time lost but I have the most wonderful kids. I regret my marriage but not my kids and for that I do not feel as though I wasted my time.
          His loss, not mine.

          • Renewed: Hugs!! It’s always their loss. I’m always amazed at how little they realize that.

      • I wasted 36 years and yeah I can testify that the damage is worst for the kids when you stay! I never would have left my husband, my kids, my beautiful house and fake life but he finally came out and left me… he was heading going out the door with his whore and a lifetime worth of assets we had built together! In the chaos I grew a spine and fought back hard! If I only new how much better it is when they are gone! They feed your insecurities daily so you stay! Get out so your mind can heal from their sickness! They can never love you like they are suppose to!

        • I’m another one who wishes I’d gotten out many years ago when my children were young. I ended up modeling years and years of dysfunctional marriage dynamics to them, all while convincing myself that by keeping the peace (i.e. being a doormat) I was providing them with stability.

          One of the first things that helped me see the situation clearly and start getting my ducks in a row was when one of my sons, by then a teenager, asked me why I hadn’t left already. It turns out he and his brothers had been discussing it and couldn’t understand why I would stay and continue to be treated with such disrespect.

          The other thing to consider is that as they grow, your children will increasingly become pawns in your husband’s narcissistic games–in fact, they already have! But it will get worse and it will move in one of two directions, or both. Either they will become targets of his resentment for “making” him stay (that happened to our children and in hindsight I wasn’t the best advocate for the one who bore the brunt of it) or they will become targets for parental alienation in helping him blame you when he leaves (that also happened to me after I left, and I was able to shut it down thankfully, but only because I was on the lookout for it).

          And this doesn’t even get into all of the soul-crushing fallout that staying will have on you. But if like most of us one of your primary hopes in staying is to provide stability for your children, please be aware that marriage to a narcissist is anything but stable, not in any way, shape, or form. Which you know already of course–you are mightier than you think!

          • “please be aware that marriage to a narcissist is anything but stable”.

            Truer words were never said. My Narc never cheated on me (my post divorce BF got me to this site) but the XH was cold as ice. No emotions, never wanted to do anything together, etc. 6 months into marriage he went cold on me.
            Eventually holding hand with him was a effort in futility. I was sooooo alone in the marriage and I’d look around at other couples and feel empty and pathetic.
            So I danced to show him how great I was. All I got in return was more feeling empty and my self-esteem plummeted. (In hind sight I think that was a huge cause of why I jumped into the Narcs arms plus no boundaries, values etc. to speak of).
            Any who, one of the main reason that drove me to divorce was I did not want my 3 year old to grow up thinking that what we had was a normal relationship. My son deserved so much better than that.
            It scared the living day light out of me when one day the XH told me that he was modeling his parents behavior with me so he did not know what a relationship was meant to be like in a desperate attempt to keep me in the marriage.
            Well, that’s too bad. I was not going to teach him anymore. I tried for 12 fucking years. Too late and too little. I needed my son way way away from there.
            That being said, after the X douche bag BF cheated, I stopped dating. Too traumatic, too many users, Narcs, cheaters out there to feel comfortable about even thinking of starting a relationship let alone bring home to meet my son. I did try but WOW it’s ugly out there. or at least it feels like it.
            But I question if my son will learn what a healthy relationship is being raised by a single mom alone. 🙁

  • Please please please listen to CL. I wreckonciled and that is when all of the financial abuse took place–hundreds of thousands worth (long story). I recently found out he got money for our business(not just taken over by employees),and I saw none of it. He just played a 4 year game to get more money out of me. I didn’t know about personality disorders or a post nup. Things would have been very different if I had known. He is with another ap now. Please do what CL suggests. Protect yourself. I didn’t and now I am paying a very high price for that

  • Somebody I know got a divorce all drawn up exactly the way they wanted (custody, etc), their spouse signed it, and it sits in a vault waiting for the day the spouse cheats again lol.

  • SS,
    Please take CL’s advice.
    What kind of bitch goes to her married lover’s home to’ hold’ the newborn his wife has just given birth to?
    What kind of man allows that to happen?
    My guess is she has no kids of her own and has no clue what the reality of 24/7 childminding is.Nothing like that reality check ( poo,vomit,crying) to knock the sparkles off their romance.I doubt they ‘ ll be pushing for 50/50 custody then.

    • Oh, man, you’d be surprised, Deedee. They LOVE to ingratiate themselves with the kids. In their minds, they are slaves to their twoo luv. No one WANTED to hurt anyone! It just HAPPENED! They don’t wish ill! My husband’s OW emailed us IN THE HOSPITAL (because of course he sent her the birth announcement) to tell us how she was just THINKING what a great name we named our baby. (gag.)

      And isn’t it so easy to sneak into the house and marvel at the newborn for a few stolen minutes. She can marvel at how much it looks like their AP, and the cruel vagaries of fate that made it not HER baby.

      • I can tell from the cell phone records that when I called him when I was in labor to take me to the hospital, he actually called HER on the way. And then the next morning, he left me in the hospital to go call her because she was feeling sad and insecure.

        • OMG, sosad. That is just horrible. I hope you at least go the post-nup route. I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with this when you should just be enjoying your two little ones. It’s just criminal what cheaters do to the person they’ve sworn to love.

        • Honey I really feel for you.Difficult as it is you need to muster every bit of strength in you and end this charade.You will go through a lot of pain but as CL says,it is finite and at least you get to keep your dignity and self respect and not have your soul eroded incrementally by this man.

        • If she’s so insecure, she’s not going to want 50/50 custody. Any time he spends focusing on the kids is not time focused on her. When the kids are NOT there, think of all the arguments AP will have with him, “We don’t have ANY alone time anymore! All of your time, attention, focus and money is on the kids! ” His time with the kids will gradually dimish to nothing. An egocentric, cheating Cluster + an insecure AP = not wanting young children around.

        • I can only imagine how overwhelmed and helpless you feel right now but you need to focus and get a strategy in place. Keep telling yourself “I’ll cry or wallow later, I have an infant and a toddler that need me because they have a defective, useless father.” First you need to gather all documentation and financial records. Second, find a pit bull lawyer. Playing nice with this defect will not work, he needs to be thrown out or at least pay for housing for you and the babies. I’m so sorry but your marriage is over, you need to accept the reality and move on. Let him be someone else’s nightmare.

      • Allie, this is so true! There is a certain pathology I am seeing, in a certain typee of woman. They become obsessed with their man, and with his children, and like to play house, pretending that the kids are their own.

        Go on the Step parents subreddit, over on Reddit, for more evidence of this phenomenon. It’s the darndest thing.

        This was years ago, but a friend if mine had two sons, let’s call them Hayden and Jackson. She was divorced, and by mutual agreement, her ex had primary custody while my friend was in college. She went to pick them up for visitation one day, and the new girlfriend of the ex was there. My friend made an offhand comment about something or other, and the girlfriend disagreed. My friend said something to the effect of, well, it’s hard to explain to someone who doesn’t have kids. And the girlfriend piped up and said, “I do have kids! Hayden and Jackson!” Grrrrrr…let’s just say she was fortunate to keep all her teeth after that remark!

        Definitely a thing.

    • Hon, Big Chief Dumb Fuck had the OW stay at our home with DD1 when I went into labor with DD2. And she brought dinner the next day when I got home from the hospital. And took photos with my camera. Then continued fucking her for 17 years while she babysat our girls unbeknownst to me, so BCDF could go out roller blading and exercising. Gag!

      I burned those photos after DDay. It took me a long time before I got to meh.

      • nope nope nope nope nope. That’s TERRIBLE. I knew the OW was trouble from the first moment because of the weird way she acted around my kid. Before the affair started, the very first time either of us met the OW, at a mutual friend’s vacation house, I was a day late coming over with my daughter because we were at another event, and my husband called us up to talk about “this great woman” he met there, and her fascinating work, and blah blah blah, but when I arrived she refused to even look in my direction, let alone introduce herself to me, and instead took my daughter aside to play with her the second she left my side. She started sending my daughter presents all the time. (“She’s so kind! Really loves kids” quoth the husband.) So a few weeks later, when I stumbled on the first round of many endless emails they were sending each other about how they were “so scared” of the level of their attraction for each other, I blew up. Red flags from literally the first moment.

      • What is it with these MN dipshits? There are 3 or 4 people here in the twin cities on these boards right now. It is truly disgusting that either one of them could do these things. Bring dinner? Babysit? That makes me sick.

  • So Sad,

    I love the chump lady strategy. It is a dream of mine that all chumps would fake reconcile, collect evidence and then blindside their cheater with divorce. I read that someone suggested that you check the legality of the postnup in your state and that sounds like sound advice.

    I’d also like to add that while you are getting your ducks in a row, that you only engage in protected sex with your cheater after you get yourself tested for STDs. Most docs will tell you that you should stay protected for 6 months following testing. That might just buy you enough time to get your evidence, document, document, document and eventually get out of dodge with your sanity and no extra diseases.

    Chump nation is here for you.

    • I divorced with 70/30. I love it and the girls are happy to see dad 2 nights a week. I go out with friends, read, work extra, occasionally date. I didn’t go after child support. These guys really are akk about bucks.

  • Staying in the same house with him you’ll lose your soul, if not your life. You don’t know what STD’s he’s bringing home, in addition to the stress, lack of sleep and worry of all of this leads to all horrible, chronic diseases.

    My sons were 2 and 6 when my marriage ended. My then husband stayed local in our town for 6 months after he left, he saw my boys MAYBE 20% of the time. He’d pick them up from daycare a few times a week, and spend Sun morning with them, sometimes. After 6 months, he moved 2000 miles away to move in with AP. My kids have to fly to see him from some holidays, which, while it’s a bummer, I have my kids 88% of the time. Cheaters and their AP’s will put on a show, but I’m sorry to say, they’re not interested in doing the heavy work of raising kids.

    Also, you can definitely have it put into your divorce agreement that the AP is NOT to see them naked. Any psychologist will testify for you that’s a form of child abuse. If Cheater and his AP breaks it, you file for a restraining order and go to court and strip him of ALL custody. Trust me, I had that one put in there and it scared the living daylights out of EH and AP, as I knew he’d outsource bath times (and everything else) to the AP.

    You’re a good mom, and you’re trying to be there for your kids, but you can’t be the parent you want to be while doing the pick me dancing and chasing all over creation a Narcissistic, disordered Cluster B. So, you have your kids under your roof now, but you’re probably exhausted, right, dealing with the bullshit a Cluster B brings into the house? It’s better to get rid of him, and you get some peace, so you can be a better parent for them. More present, less exhausted. Even if they have to go to Cheaters house for a bit, you won’t have his SWIRL in your environment any longer. Once your kids come home, you can be the mom you REALLY want to be for them.

    Also, 4 out of 5 years means you’ll be dealing with this shit the rest of your life. Don’t underestimate the power of stress and that it could take you away from your precious children so they end up being raised by the Disordered. Don’t let that happen, for your kids sake!!

    Good luck, we’re here for you.

  • SS, I read the stories on this site everyday and I figured I’d get to the point where nothing shocks me anymore. But you know what? The level of disgust just keeps getting higher and higher. He’s making progress!?! This is not a situation where he was morbidly obese and the weight comes off slowly. He’s not learning a new language. It’s as simple as him making a decision and making it stick. Progress, my ass.

    CL is so right about your soul. Pick-Me Dancing and allowing him to eat cake will crush your soul. It will change you in ways that are permanent. You’ll become world-weary at a young age and your vision of people and the entire world will be tinged with suspicion.

    Want a really good reason to not allow this to go on for one more second? Your children. He’s doing this to them as well as you. He is abusing them by bringing them into the deception. The fact that he allowed that skanky troll to touch your new baby proves that he sees his kids as his alone. He’s a giant prick.

    I get that you don’t want her being anywhere near your children. Fight for custody then move away because of employment. Don’t even look for a job in your town. Someone as self-involved as you husband will get real tired of having to drive any distance to see the kids. The whore won’t like it either because she must be as self-involved as he is.

    If you stay, you have many more years of this type of abuse to look forward to. He’s cheated with two different women (that you know of) in four years of marriage. This dude has major impulse control issues and obviously has a twisted view of what marriage means. I sincerely doubt that will ever change.

    He “finds it hard to close that door once and for all”? I say you put his dick in that door and slam it. Hard. Twice. And while he writhes in pain on the porch, slam it a third time and lock him out.

    I wish you the strength you need to love yourself enough to not allow this anyone to treat you this way.

    • “It will change you in ways that are permanent.” I feel it happening already.

      And: “He “finds it hard to close that door once and for all”? I say you put his dick in that door and slam it. Hard. Twice. And while he writhes in pain on the porch, slam it a third time and lock him out.” This made me laugh out loud.

      Thank you.

      • Sosad – glad I made you laugh. Laughs are hard to come by when you’re feeling the way you do. I hope you’ll take all the comments from other chumps to heart. I wated 20 years of my one and only life with a man who only loved himself. I don’t know if my X was cheating early in our relationship, but it was never healthy. He treated me like he was doing me a big favor by marrying me. In his teeny tiny mind I made him marry me against his will and he punished me for that from that day forward.

        I became the enemy on my wedding day and he put the screws to me whenever the opportunity arose. (He is a GIANT narcissist.). I didn’t understand it. No matter how hard I worked at making our marriage good, he was right there undoing it.

        This man you’re married to does not deserve you or those precious children. Please don’t waste another day in a marriage with that black hole of a self-serving infant. The fact that he can still look you in the eye knowing the pain he’s causing you, and not dying of shame, tells you everything you need to know about his character. He has none.

        I wish I could give you a huge hug.

        • I echo that. I could never figure out why STBX felt like “marrying me was a big favor.” It can be hard to not fall down the rabbit hole of the pick me dance. I hated that he thought he had “settled” by marrying me. I can’t believe I settled for him, now. I have sympathy for cult survivors.

          • Same here. My depression led me to agree that she was doing me a favor and think she enjoyed that I felt that way. When she’d tell me she was best thing to ever happen to me, I happily agreed.

    • “He ‘finds it hard to close that door once and for all’? I say you put his dick in that door and slam it. Hard. Twice. And while he writhes in pain on the porch, slam it a third time and lock him out.”

      uneffingbelievable, sweet. Right out of the park!

    • I love the, “this is not a situation where he was morbidly obese and the weight comes off slowly”!! Haha!

    • EXCELLENT post, uneffingbelievable …just when we think we’ve seen it all!!!

  • So Sad,

    My situation ended with #2 from decision tree. I wasn’t 100% convinced he was cheating, but he certainly was at least putting it in my head, with the horrible way he had begun acting. I decided to wait rather than confront him, and let him be the one to confess the truth. It never happened. My D-Day didn’t consist of finding evidence of the affair (that came later) but of him letting me know he intended to leave me. And when he did he left me with nothing. I had to move in with a family member for eight months or so because our household bills and debts were left to me to pay, and I couldn’t afford it. It sucked really bad.

    Don’t let Option 2 happen.

  • So Sad,

    I, too, married a man who never stopped dating. It’s a battle you can never win. It’s a dance that never goes your way. It’s you playing the game of marriage and family, and him playing cheater fucknut ball.

    Here is what I did:

    My ex fucktard, I call him Idiotic Twat or Uncle Dad, abandoned me when I was a stay at home mom raising our two little girls, ages almost 2 and 3 at the time. He walked out. He stopped paying the mortgage, utilities, my car payment over the next 3 months. I had to call his boss begging for money so that my utilities would not get turned off (after I struck out calling Uncle Dad’s mom for help).

    I file. He wants 50/50. I say precisely hell no. He files lots of ugly lies in public records trying to paint me as a bi-polar paranoid schitzophrenic with rage issues, which is why I shouldn’t have sole custody. BUT he will agree to 50/50. Confused? So was the judge.

    My attorney who happens to be my stepmom said to agree to 50/50 at the first hearing. Give him enough rope, and he’d hang himself.

    It took a year, but a year after the temporary hearing, we were still deadlocked on 50/50. The judge ordered a custody study. Basically, you spend the day being observed, interviewed, and tested by a psychologist approved by the court. You take your children, and the kids are interviewed. One parent goes. Then the other, and the psychologist makes a recommendation.

    I was honest about everything. I didn’t try to hide things. I knew I am the better parent so I just told the doctor about my life with my girls. I also brought a 3″ binder with copies of all the documenting I had been doing the past year.

    Uncle Dad lied. About everything. And he failed his psych tests.

    So, the doc recommended I have sole custody, and the judge took the recommendation. I asked that Uncle dad have supervised visits, not leave the kids with 3rd parties, and call me to pick up the kids if he couldn’t stay his whole time with the kids. He literally breaks every one of those on most of his visits.

    Now, I’m working on getting his visitation terminated entirely. He pretty much uses the custody agreement as toilet paper.

    Best thing I did: get your kids an age appropriate smart watch. They have some that have 2-way calling with just a push of a button, gps tracking, and an alarm that goes off if the watch is taken off. There are many on the market. My kids are 4 and 5 now and I got them Tinitell watches. Only $150, and the best feature is you can call the watch and just listen to what’s going on in the background.

    Sad, the point I’m trying to make is that I know it’s rough. It looks hopeless. I had no job, an overdrawn bank account, a house going into foreclosure, and a car about to be repossessed on the day I filed for divorce. It took me almost 2 years to get a damn child support garnishment order.

    But I made it.

    Yes, it took me a little over a year to get sole custody. But I got it. I got to keep my house. I got a job making more money than Idiotic Twat. And I’m happy. So happy! I’m not dating because I’m just not really interested in it right now, but I have everything I’ve ever wanted–including the absence of one fucktard cheater in my life.

    Sad, don’t give up! My attorney/stepmom, who is fabulously amazing, but her specialty is wills and successions. Not divorce. These disordered freak shows are such hot messes that it is pretty easy to take them down. I’m not saying go out and get the first lawyer you see. I’m just saying that even though my ex’s attorney was a big, bad bulldog divorce attorney and mine specialized in wills and successions, I still took him down.

    Don’t get discouraged. You can do it! Think of your children. I have little girls, and I didn’t want them seeing the way their dad treated me and think it’s ok. It was a no brainer. I had to file and get away.

    BIG HUGS!!!

    • AWESOME!!

      Chumps are generally so much smarter than impulsive, narcissistic, mentally disordered cheaters, as you so vividly demonstrate.

      Go for the jugular, my dear. Methodically.

      I love this!

    • Jeez, Kelli. I forgot to breathe while reading this!! I kept seeing a parallel to the Erin Brockovich story.

      Bless your indomitable heart. I’m thinking there is a movie here.

    • Kelli ‘ s post is spot on. If she can do it, so can you SS.

      If you don’t have a ton of dirt on the Cheater now, don’t panic. Towards the end of my divorce, we were asked to produce witness lists. I listed teachers, daycare providers, coaches, doctors, neighbors, Cub Scout Masters, karate instructors who knew me and my kids and could speak to all the things I do for my kids. Cheater only listed ONE witness: his AP. I was floored that he listed the AP as his only witness. I think he did it to unnerve me. Once I saw her name on the witness list, I asked my lawyer, “so, she’ll be able to hear everything MY witnesses say?”, to which my lawyer said, “yes”. I then amended my witness list to add Cheater ‘ s former bosses, former Navy XO, and HR people – ALL who were going to testify that Cheater STOLE from his employers, he was unethical and was released from the military due to not being up to performance standards. ALL info the AP knew nothing about, and would have destroyed his meal ticket. Once Cheater ‘ s attorney saw the list, he asked Cheater, “what are these people going to say about you?” Cheater shrugged, but then contacted me the next day to say, “Let’s settle”. Financially, I got everything I wanted, and more. And, I have my kids 88% of their lives.

      Just remember, it looks bleak now, but as you go through the process, I bet cracks start appearing in his case. I think you’ll surprise yourself, SS, that you’ll get more than you think you’ll get.

      • That is awesome, Chris!!! I would LOVE to be able to do that to EXH#2 just so his OWife would finally know the truth about her husband!!!

        The Evil One would shit bricks if I called in all of his dirty-dealings partners and OWhores before Mrs. Dumb-ass came into the picture!!!

  • So Sad – I’m so sorry you’re dealing with that evil asshole. He truly is a monster. I get it, there’s no pain-free solution here.

    Question for my fellow chumps: Did anyone have a cheater who was Divorced Disneyland Dad for a long time then stopped? Many people say the cheater will never last with 50-50 custody, he’ll lose interest, kids are too hard for these creeps, etc. But The Entitled One — who resented our kids for the first seven years of their lives until the got medicated, then became a halfway decent father but still acted like spending a Saturday with them was a major pain in his ass — took 40-60 custody (me getting 60) and 50-50 custody on holidays. It’s been a year and he’s a better, more engaged father than he’s ever been. He seems to enjoy the time with his sons and takes them additional time when I have something going on during one of “my” nights (we have right of first refusal).

    I’m happy for the sake of my boys. It’s far, far better for them to have an engaged, loving father than to have one that does a disappearing act, or one that resents them. But I’m stunned, and the time away from my boys is the worst pain imaginable. I’ve said this here before but no amount of getting out there, keeping busy, and doing stuff for me makes up for the pain of missing half my kids’ childhoods.

    I’m glad we’re not married. I wouldn’t want to model the kind of marriage we had. But it’s damn hard and it hurts like hell. So I wouldn’t encourage anyone to bank on the fact that their cheater will never last with 50-50 custody.

      • They’re 8 and 10. So, yeah, they’re at a fun age. The lull before the teenage storm. 🙂

        • Sounds typical to me. He resented them in the past because they were WORK. Babies are helpless and tons of work. Toddlers are wild looney tunes who still need everything done for them while being chased around and constantly in need of stimulation and protection from their dangerous curiosity.

          The ages of your kids now are perfect for the Disney Dad. They’re too old for the drudgeries of sippy cups, potty training, heavy strollers and all that, but haven’t hit the teen years when the physical drudgeries turn into having to worry about dating and sex and drugs/alcohol temptations and high school…

          Gotta love the parents who can’t be bothered when the children are WORK and then suddenly step in like super dad (or mom) when the dirty work turns into fun at McDonald’s and the baseball field.

    • Mine kept up his visitation (it was nowhere near 50/50, as he lives in another state) for a year. At that point the knocked up OW seemed to not like her babydaddy being gone once a month, and he pulled the plug. So in your case, I would suggest that his visitation might decrease once something new and shiny comes along to distract him.

    • And this is the other half of the shit sandwich. No matter how much I miss my kids, I don’t want them to suffer the devastating pain of being abandoned by their father. So I’m going to go back to chewing over here.

      Still better than being married to him.

  • OMG So Sad — ask yourself what advice you would give a friend of yours that told you the same story.

    “He is finding it hard to “close that door once and for all” is utter bullshit, but I suspect you know that already.

    CL and all other commenters have it correct — you’ll never be able to respect yourself if you continue subjecting yourself to this.

    Two specific things that touch on my situation also:

    1. Unfortunately CL is right on this: “You do NOT cast it as “Can You Believe What He Did to Me?!” I wish that mattered, but sadly from what I read here, it usually does not.” The court will not care, they want and need to move things along and will not act with a therapists’s eye. I too am still in the same house with my Kibbler and am trying my best to allow her to hang herself with her own rope. She continues to go out past midnight at least two nights a week to engage with the friends she’s made in her ‘sex-positive’ lifestyle, while I make dinner, shuttle Things 1 & 2 to appointments and activities, and just be the stable attentive parent my girls need and deserve, especially in a father. I want to explode most of the time, but I have to have confidence that her behavior, as framed by my attorney, will speak for itself when we get to court.

    2. I flirted with the “who cares” mindset as well. My girls will be 18 and 19 in 5 years, and I breifly thought “if needed I can put up with it for that long and then I can take action.” We are empaths and we are wired to sacrifice ourselves in favor of those we love and want to protect. Your Cheater’s actions are forcing you to go against your nature — trust us, this is an instance where your following your instinct will be your downfall. You have enough good instincts to get you through this.

    Stay strong.

  • Sad:
    Hi, Sorry you are here.
    #1. Is a post nup enforceable in your state?
    #2. Would your husband sign one to recover?
    The above two must be a possibility for the rest to follow though.

    Consequences. Learn the word. Consequences are the Kryptonite of every cheater. They don’t mind a bit when YOU get them, but PLEASE don’t bring any to their doorstep.
    You use this word (watch him cringe) over and over, until he agrees that, maybe, he might have to have some consequences.

    If you can get the post nup,
    Find a reliable lawyer and have REASONABLE terms that are in your favor written in. Too outrageous = non enforceable.
    If he can sign then JOYOUSLY get yourself in alignment with recovery – for about 6- 9 months. (You would have to present that you actually TRIED to work with the recovery/contract. It can be tossed if there is proof that you had no intention of following through.)

    P.I. his arse. He is going to be a lifelong cheat. There is no easy way out of this, consider the post nup your future separation agreement. Get the evidence, publish the evidence and walk at that time.

    This sounds like a 2 year plan? No matter what you do it is going to be 2 years, I think. At least this way you have some control over your future settlement/child arrangement. Stealth, nerves of steel and patience? You got this.

  • I don’t know how you do it, Chump Lady, but you’re spot on with this one. A post-nup is genius, and I only wish I had known about it before. But alas, it was a small price to pay for freedom from a narcist. Love what you’re doing. Keep the message loud and clear!

    • Yeah, the thing about the whole “long-game, 2-3 year plan, post-nup,” etc., is, are you supposed to continue having sex with this person the whole time? That for me would be a deal breaker.

      • No. I would consider reconciliation after the 9 – 12 months STD first – second check up. The first one after the affair breaks off, the other after waiting period over. LOTS of ways to deal with that.

        • My ex who is an investment banker and deals with lawyers every day, refused to have anything to do with a post nup. So good luck with that one.

          • Hahahahaaaaaa Tempest!!!!

            The Evil One adamantly opposed any talk of marriage counseling, trial separation, etc. he said he was “done” and moved out 4 weeks later. I would have gone cuckoo-for-coccoa-puffs on him if I had to sit around waiting for divorce filing or even for the divorce was final.

            Here in my state (God Bless Alabama/Sweet Home Alabama- whichever you prefer), he tried to get me to agree to a 50-50 custody, but had absolutely no plan or schedule to propose. (brace yourselves at the ludicrous-ness of this plan) He just said that he would get DD when he got off work (usually around 6-7PM), take her to his slut-shack, bath, dinner, bedtime, then get her up around 4AM and bring her back to me around 5AM so he could go to work… 😛 😛 😛 (eye-rolls and guffaws)…I told him oh hell NAW that would work, even with a “typical” child (DD is Autistic)…I didn’t offer anything back, and I damn sure didn’t agree to his plan. I just waited him out.

            A few weeks go by, by then his OWhore was now out and about with him publicly, and he went to an attorney to pay for our divorce, again adamantly telling me he was going to get 50-50 and he wasn’t going to pay me child support. An hour or so later, he texted me back with “My attorney is emailing me a income sheet we both have to fill out and we will have joint custody, you primary. And I’ll be paying you child support. ”

            Hahahahaaaaaa….dumb-ass. He finally paid his attorney, it was filed and voila! We were divorced 40 days after it was filed.

            So Now he only sees her every other weekend (he could see her more, but ya know his work schedule + Owife and HER two kids take precedence = no extra time for DD), he had her about 9 days at Christmas and it about killed him to have ALL the responsibility and care on him for DD for the first time EVER in her life for longer than a day or two…he did take her for a week to NY so I guess he handled it…other than those two weeks, the ONLY time he has spent with DD has been every other weekend.

  • One of a million reasons for why I believe every state should be a hybrid state that allows for either no-fault or at-fault divorce. Things just didn’t work out and you want to part ways, no harm no foul? No-fault. Someone can’t keep their pants up or their hands to themselves? At-fault.

    That guy is a punk. He brings his trash over to bond with his babies like they’re new toys to show off and play with while his wife is at work, has no respect for those kids’ family unit, but wants to have the kids half the time to play house with the side piece and then send them back to mom for fun time with his ho?


    So Sad, I hope you expose his ass and shame the shit out of him whether he cares if anyone knows or not. Too bad we can’t tattoo cheaters with scarlet letters so that the good people know when they’ve found a stray and can avoid them and the losers who hook up with them anyway can be known for what they are, too. Birds of a feather…

  • First, you will never find better advice than on this site. Stick around. Secondly, turn off your heart and think with your brain for a minute.

    You feel heartbroken and defeated, I get that. But you can’t give up. Later on, you will be over this and you will thank the Gods that you had your wits about you and protected yourself and the kids. Legally, do what CL recommends. Find a fantastic attorney and get your ammo ready. I don’t give a fuck what he tells you, there are plenty of blood-sucking lawyers that will get you what you want. (No offense to any blood-sucking attorneys out there.) Keep reading option 3 because it’s brilliant. You are not a fucking doormat. You feel like it right now, but now is the time to change that.

    And the marriage counseling? That is a complete joke. So the poor baby can’t stop fucking Mary Jo Rotten crotch? It’s so hard! This is man who took vows with you. There wasn’t a provision in there that states he gets a pass and we must go to counseling when he can’t stop banging either his boss, the secretary, or the other nameless rabble you probably don’t even know about. This is a man who fucks around while his wife is pregnant. He brings his AP into your home to hold your baby. These aren’t fixable offenses. Counseling won’t change the fact that he is an utter and complete dirt bag. He’s not charming. He sucks.

    You need to start getting angry. Fuck, I’m angry for you. Nope, do not accept this crap and get the battle armor on. You probably will have the upper hand in that, he’s taken advantage of you for so long, he won’t expect you’ll go all Boudica on his ass. Go get ’em Tiger!

    • Yes, “charming” plus “brings AP into your home to hold your baby” = dangerously disordered.

      • I’d most definitely be sitting in jail for the kind of wrath I’d bring down on the two of them. Yep. I would. What a couple of tactless assholes . . . smh.

    • Rumblekitty says it all.

      I can only suggest another thing to keep in mind for now is that a desperately disordered OW, like the one you describe, is often found to be porking an assortment of guys at any given time. Married, divorced, single, all the same to her — obviously. Rather like her betting on three or four different horses in the same race to see which one is going to come through for her in the end — so that the also-rans can be sold for glue. Right now your darling specimen of a husband thinks he’s the apple of her goddamn eye, right? Her one and only? Seriously? Because she acts like she’s so ‘into him’, right? Because she’s, heh, faithful? And she doesn’t have a long and dark history of deception? She is pure and innocent and doesn’t have any history at all of sneaking around, secret texts, hiding her phone, ducking and diving, evading truths, living a lie, behaving like an immoral f*cktard, making quick exits without leaving a trace, being master of cover-ups — like him?? Well well well. More fool him. He would not accept this notion but you can be sure there’s a chance he may be exposing himself to several other men’s DNA, bacteria, and diseases on a basis more regularly than he could possibly imagine.

      Protect yourself. In fact, don’t even share a bathroom with him.

      • HopeandGloria, this is truth. x “thought” that the schmoopie shot rainbows out of her ass. My daughter told him that she was texting his ex boss, but he did not believe her, they all worked together at that point, and schmoopie befriended my D21 at work, and schmoopie was not all that covert in her texting while working out at the gym with D21. I call that schmoopie, “the company bike”, everybody has had a ride!!! That is what these kind of “people” deserve, for the rest of their natural lives.

        CL should do a post about this, about how “absolutely awesome” the AP actually is!!!!!

  • I agree 100% with the Chump Lady Strategy… request the post-nuptial with the best attorney in your county writing it up – not your Narcissistic Husband. Chances are the OW will lose interest if she’s sees that she’ll be getting a BROKE boyfriend who has to pay support for 2 children for the next 15+ years. At a minimum, it will give you more time to get your ducks in a row AT THE SAME TIME. He doesn’t give you a post-nup then you drop divorce napalm on him.

    I know your pain. My son was 3yo on my first d-day. I stayed for 8 more years with my head in the sand so I wouldn’t have to give him up every other weekend. I damaged my soul so deeply that it will take me years to process and get myself back to 100%. Don’t make my mistake.

    Remember, they teach you on airplanes… put your oxygen mask on first… then you can take care of the kids.

    It’s hard, but not harder than living a lie and watching your soul die a little every day.

    p.s. if you raise your sons with this fuckwit, they’ll think the way Daddy behaves is how men should behave… do you want that legacy?

    I’ll say prayers for you. It’s hard… but finding your courage – taking back your power – goes a long way to making it feel a little better… inch by inch.

    God bless.

    • ICanSee, “Remember, they teach you on airplanes… put your oxygen mask on first… then you can take care of the kids”. This is really good advice.

  • UXworld, “We are empaths and we are wired to sacrifice ourselves in favor of those we love and want to protect. Your Cheater’s actions are forcing you to go against your nature — trust us, this is an instance where your following your instinct will be your downfall. ” Thank you for this truth that I personally needed to see today.

    SS, please, please take to heart all the great advice given here. The people that gave it have lived thru it all and wisdom comes with age. Please don’t do as I did and blindly believe the lies these cheaters tell so well. I bought the bullshit for almost 40 years and my biggest regret is thinking that my children needed a “father” in their little lives. They and I would have been so, so much better off getting the hell out decades ago. My naive self had simply no idea that there are people in this world will tell you how much they love you and care about you and then do everything in their power to lie, cheat and hurt you as much as they possibly can.

    Please don’t waste another minute thinking that this person loves you or your children. He loves HIMSELF and only him. Best of luck with your decisions and come back often. There is a wealth of help here.

    • SO glad I’m able to pay it forward, angelgirl, I get support and strength each day from this site and am thrilled that I can contribute to someone else’s journey.

    • “My naive self had simply no idea that there are people in this world will tell you how much they love you and care about you and then do everything in their power to lie, cheat and hurt you as much as they possibly can.”

      This is how I feel. I can hardly even believe it even though I’m seeing it with my own eyes. He LOOKS like the person I fell in love with. He LOOKS like the person I have known so well for 11 years. Even despite the evidence, despite knowing that he has been lying to my face for at least 4 years, I can hardly believe it. When he stands before me, he doesn’t SOUND mean or diabolical, but he must be to do the things he has done. (I could write for days about the times/ways he has abandoned me and the kids in the past year alone.) It’s just so hard to comprehend that he isn’t who I thought he was. It screws up your whole perception of the world to think that the person who you loved and trusted the most has been lying and hurting you all along. If that’s true, what else am I missing?

      • This. The hardest thing is accepting that the person you loved isn’t who you thought they were. You described it so well — they LOOK like the people we fell in love with it, but they’re not. They walk and talk like regular people, but inside they’re missing a soul.

        Like angelgirl said, “My naive self had simply no idea that there are people in this world will tell you how much they love you and care about you and then do everything in their power to lie, cheat and hurt you as much as they possibly can.”

        That’s the big, painful lesson so many of us had to learn.

        • Actions don’t just speak louder than words. Actions describe one’s character completely. Words, on the other hand, are often just noises coming out of a hole in the face that try to do the covering-up job and the image-management/damage-limitations when the actions reveal what a bad character this person truly is.

      • Yes! Yes! Yes! I basically had to accept the fact that the man I married was dead and accept this new person as someone I didn’t know. When I wrote him a letter explaining that, he cried. Awww…LOL
        I didn’t directly divorce him. Instead I separated and watched his behavior. At first, he came as much as he could to see our three boys, would clean, and buy things. I would always leave town to enjoy my Motherhood break. As time passed and he didn’t get what he wanted, his behavior changed. By around 6 months, he stole my car and left a clunker, took my modem/router back to Comcast, turned off all my utilities, and started giving me a check for less than child support…all while saying how much he loves me and wants us to be back together. Now that he’s been served, he wants full custody of our boys and for me to pay him child support (I’ve been a stay-at-home mom 6 of our 11 years of marriage), but I still get the “I love you like never before and I just wished you could understand” text msgs. I was always a great wife and even better mother, but he’s trying to punish me bc I wasn’t going to eat shit sandwiches after he cheated on me for 14 months through my mother’s death, pregnancy, and even after the birth of our last child. Trying to taking my children is as low as he can get in my opinion.
        I don’t think they even know what love is. It’s just a word they use to control people.

        • Just to clarify– I moved far. When I say he came to visit the children, it was once or twice a month. Weekends.

          • Wow, what a vindictive POS! That’s evil. That’s what mentally disordered people do, tell you they love you, while they royally screw you over. He was just telling you want you wanted to hear, so he could keep you near and punish you. They tell you what you want to hear, until it takes you years to figure out the truth.

      • So Sad, is he still engaged with you? My cheater was a ‘monogamous infidel’ – he was infatuated with his OW, and treated me very badly. My hardest thing was looking at the stranger with the shark eyes who looked EXACTLY like my best friend who loved me. Awful.

        I also wreckonciled for 6 years. It was a completely soul wrecking waste of my life. No remorse, no introspection, lots of self pity and ‘can’t you just get over this’? Don’t do this. Your children get older and older, go to university and you don’t get that maintenance. Also, life literally DOES get better when their crazy is out of your life. Hang in there x

      • SoSad, It’s called Cognitive Dissonance, I love him, I hate him. He’s so good, he’s so bad. It damages – literally damages our brains to attempt to hold two opposing beliefs like this at the same time. Especially over a long span of time. Its an unhealthy coping mechanism, and often results in CPTSD. I’m just understanding this after a 35+ year marriage, with the jerk nearly 40 years! What I’m learning about my cheater Cluster B STBXH is that he isn’t either good or bad, he’s both. And that when he is “good” it’s the Pathology talking. He used his manipulative charm, grand gestures, sweet words and pathological lies to trick me into believing he was a loving, loyal, family man. Very far from it. These types have no empathy, no conscience, and cannot truly love (they attach like blood sucking leaches, but do not form loving bonds). This is the definition of evil. Lawyer up and get out and as far away as you can. This man is dangerous to your sanity! The hardest and most heartbreaking thing to do is to Accept Who He Is. His actions clearly demonstrate his complete lack of character. You do not deserve to be treated with such horrible disrespect, and I promise you, no matter what he says, he cannot change.
        “Run, Forrest, Run!”

      • SoSad, as CL and CN have pointed out, believing that the person you thought you married is not the person you are dealing with, that the person you thought had your back, the person you have kids with, in reality absolutely sucks is one of the most devastating and difficult things to face!

        I found out my X had been cheating on me with a gradwhore half his age for over a year by opening an email. No warning, no conversation from him, nothing. And there were over 600 emails exchanges about them with nudes, phone hook ups, and general drivel about their love story. I was beyond devastating. My X was the mature guy who earlier in our marriage had commiserated with me when I told him I was chumped before. My X was the guy who was so hurt to learn that one of his dear mentors had been chumped. My X was the one who was helping friends overcome their life difficulties despite pursuing his challenging career.

        Yes, he had changed since we had a kiddo together, and was becoming less and less respectful of me over time, but he was reliable and always told me things were going to get better, less stressful when his book was over, when his next grant was going to get funded, etc…

        The discovery and evidence that he tried to lie his way through wreckonciliation days after I confronted him led me to leave him after DDay #1. Guess who, less than 4 months later, of course when we were in the middle of “collaborative” negotiations, invited his gradwhore to move in with him? Yep, there I was, living a building away, and having to accept that my kiddo was going to spend 50% of her time with X and his cumdumpster… I moved through the shit and the divorce was finalized a few months ago despite his best attempts to stop the process.

        This has been a tough road, and yes there are many many more shit sandwiches that I will have to eat up with gusto for the sake of my kiddo. I will probably spend a fair amount of time in courts to keep my X accountable to the divorce decree he agreed to. It is going to suck big time, for several years to come. Every time he sinks lower in his suckitude as a parent and an X, I rely on my local friends and family, they have been amazing. This week at IC, I was at my lowest in a long time, this week has felt like putting one foot in front of the other required most of my life energy. But I keep going, I keep reading this blog, and every day I try and give support to other chumps as this community has become my lifeline of sanity through it all. So many times I have been tempted to break NC and well… Tempest would agree, I have avoided needing a defense attorney thus far, huge achievement…

        Through it all, my ability to teach my kiddo about self-respect and boundaries has gotten better. It is tough as hell, but I believe that the soul-killing experience of living with my X would be far worse for my kiddo and me.

        I am glad you found CL & CN SoSad, I am not going to lie, the shit sandwiches are there and keep coming, but thanks to stories like Kelli’s today, and many other chumps, I know that I made the right choice, because my X truly sucks as a human being. I wish you strength, SoSad and hope you will stick around, give us updates, and let us at CN help you through this heart-wrenching journey to Meh.

  • This letter was mine. Reading the title, about giving up, made me cry. I’m not sure how I even got to this place of giving up. This isn’t the person I usually am.

    And I’ve never participated on any blog before. I can’t believe the generosity and support. I have been feeling so lost and sad–I don’t talk to family or friends about my life any more because it’s just so humiliating and it’s been going on for so long people are basically sick of hearing about it. It means so much to know that I’m not alone, that others have been through it, and that people understand things like mindfuckery, cake, pick me dancing, etc.. Honestly–the supportive comments so far have me sobbing in my coffee.

    It’s also giving me a dose of reality. If I’m honest, I probably haven’t been realistic about what carrying on this way would mean. I’ve been thinking that if I just stuck it out long enough, she’d get frustrated that he’d never leave his wife and just go away. (She’s never been married, wants kids, etc. I know this because I read the text that said, “I would love your children like my own. And I want kids of my own too, you know.” Puke.) But it’s starting to sink in that this is not going to happen.

    And all of this is well-timed. Before he left for work this morning, he gave me the line, “We have more than 10 years together. Don’t give up on me now. I lost sight of things, but I’m 110% committed now. We start anew from now.” Yes, he has said all of these things before, but some little pea brain part of me wants so badly to believe it that I start to think–what if THIS is the time? I can’t walk away now–what if he means it this time?

    I don’t think I can afford a contentious divorce process, especially since I’ve already paid on retainer and it’s pretty far along. I may be inclined to accept 50/50 and play the long game, as Chump Lady suggested. I know that things could be worse. I have a good job myself and will be able to support myself and the boys even if I get little-to-no child support. We divided out our assets when I first filed for divorce and I’ve been squirreling away a savings of my own. I believe that I will get the house–because his name isn’t even on the mortgage and he’s not asking for it, but I may have to pay him for the equity he’s entitled to.

    Chump Lady is right. I’m just really afraid. And I miss the lie. And it’s taking me a really, really long time to stop hoping.

    • SS, my reply was long as it is, but I left out a really essential piece — you’re in the cycle of abuse. Please google it, and spend some time over at on personality disorders and Dr. Simon’s site

      He’s a sick bastard to keep doing this to you. I was married to one to. It’s a GAME to him. The very best thing I could say is he means it in the 5 minutes he says it, and then it dissolves into the mist 5 minutes later. It’s a situational truth. He “loves” you until you’re out of sight and then the primacy of what HE wants rules again.

      Please, please PLEASE judge his ACTIONS.

      It’s all right there. The only way the pain is going to stop is when you go no contact, or as much as you can with little kids.

      I’m so glad you’re financially independent. That’s HUGE. Take great pride it that. You have options, Sister.

      Do not model this shit to these little boys. And that OW? She’s pick me dancing too. “Oh! I want your children!”

      If that were to happen (God Forbid), he’d be the same asswipe to those kids that he is to yours. There is only HIM and his shallow promises. Would he tell them pretty words and pretend commitment to them? Sure. And you’re living exactly what that is worth — MISERY.

      • And SS — throw out the post-nup option and see how quickly that “remorse” dissolves. I’m just really curious how he’d like to underwrite that sorry.

        • Sosad you stated…..“I don’t talk to family or friends about my life anymore because it’s just so humiliating….” STOP….you need to remember YOU DID NOTHING WRONG!!! Right now more than ever you need the support and love of your friends and family and you already have support here at Chump Nation. Hugs to you for living through this hell. But I can tell by your words you are strong…..stay strong.

          Right now your job is to document, document, document and when you’re tired of documenting…..document some more. Black and white is very hard to dispute. Turn your heart and emotions off for this fucktard. He had NO problem doing it to you. Find the momma beast in you and rip him to shreds.

          You will grieve as if this was a death. But time does heal, you and your beautiful children will be OK and stronger at the end. Then…as Chump Lady says….on “Some Tuesday…not sure which one” you’ll find “meh”.

          HUGS FROM CN!!!!

          • It’s not humiliating to walk away from someone who is abusing you. It’s brave. And smart. And many of the people who love you probably already hate this guy because they see what he is more clearly.

      • I wish I could hug you in person. I’m so glad I found your blog, that you responded, that others are here. Thank you.

        • Don’t think of this as “giving up.” Think of it as putting on your big girl pants and willfully choosing another path.

          You really can do better than this, and you will.

          BTW, OW is only his current side piece. Cut him off for YOUR sake, not with the hope that he will change. One day you will see, plain as day, the way we all see it in your situation, that he is INCORRIGIBLE, darling!! OW will fall off and/or be cheated upon. Clearly this is a lifestyle for your STBX.

          You sound like a smart girl with a big heart. Forgive yourself for loving a completely disordered man with a lovely mask.

          It will take a while to get your mind right, but you will. We promise. It gets easier. One day you will be able to marvel at how far you’ve come. Really.


          • Ditto what Miss Sunshine said. “Don’t think of this as “giving up.” Think of it as putting on your big girl pants and willfully choosing another path.”

            I feel for you, we all do having been exactly where you are. Once my head decided “ENOUGH OF THIS!” I had to ignore my heart for awhile to kick him out and start taking steps to divorce.

            I backslid a few times, got sucked into wreckonciliation and then HE dumped me, decided I’d made a mistake and begged him to come back (twice), got sucked into wreckonciliation again and got dumped again. Extricating myself from this relationship is the hardest thing I’ve ever done, missing my kids half the time hurts like hell, but even with all that (and despite my post above), things are BETTER this way. CL is right. I stayed for years and it was soul-crushing. And I began developing health problems that miraculously went away when he did — as if all the pain I was suppressing manifested itself in my body. I’m at the point now where I wonder how I ever thought I was in love with him. When I look at him, I don’t see the man I saw for twenty-two years — I see a man who made shockingly stupid, selfish decisions. It’s taken me a year past the final D-Day, but I’m finally beginning to build my own life.

            YOU CAN DO THIS.

            • Great post – Better Days.
              I’m raising my flag.
              I was one of those ‘lucky ones’ that discovered the 3 yr affair that he would never admit.
              I was on C/L really fast as I was frantic.
              The most painful experience was copying all the documents asking myself if the internet was forcing me to divorce my husband, as I bawled copious tears. I wondered if I was naive by reading all of this.

              Well, it was the best blessing.
              I followed him with policing for about 1-1/2 yrs – excruciating and he got far more bold, flying her on fancy trips, and by then, I was all up on the spy ware. He had a burner phone so I couldn’t track convos or anything, thankfully.

              But, lie after lie after lie and I kept my mouth shut the entire time.
              And, he thought we should get a separation.
              I agreed.

              Went to a small-town lawyer and filed for Divorce.

              Since we had both been cheated on before marriage, I always told him it was a deal breaker for me and I’d be gone in a NY second…and I stuck to my guns. I was so far ahead of him on everything – even filing, that I think he’s still spinning his head around. He thought he was SO fucking smart. Well, he didn’t know much about the internet and excellent blogs like this.

              Filing first, definitely gives you a huge advantage.
              Especially if they aren’t expecting it.

              SoSad, I hope this goes quickly for you.
              You have left so many of your emotions on the table and we all really sympathize and appreciate you for doing that. It gives us so much more opportunity to help.
              You are definitely a tough cookie – I also can tell that.

              Bitch boots.
              Put em on!

    • I have screenshot after screenshot of texts she sent me assuring me that “I love you so much it hurts,” “I need you and this family, “you’re right, you are my sole focus and I have to start acting like it,” “You are my flagship” (see the Jason Isbell song)

      Now that I’ve filed and I’ve been able to see some of the spin she’s putting for other people (again, I have screenshot proof), her story now is: “I hadn’t been him love with him for at least the last 2-3 years”, “I knew almost immediately [after the cheating started] that I wanted the marriage to be over,” “I feel like a weight’s been listed that I never knew was there”

      It’s MINDFUCKERY for sport. Don’t let your sorrow blind you to that fact.

    • It wasn’t easy to accept that the marriage I thought I had never existed, and that I was in love with a person who wasn’t genuine. However, that’s the truth and no amount of wishful thinking, pick me dancing, or hope changed that.

      As CL says, trust that he sucks. I have often recalled that mantra when feeling wistful and it really helped pull me back to reality. Best of luck to you.

      • Wistful. What a perfect word for the mood I’ve been in since the excruciating pain subsided a bit. It’s been over a year and a half and I still miss her companionship. I recently dated someone for a few weeks but broke it off because it felt wrong to have a different woman in my home. And as sweet and funny and intelligent as the woman was, she wasn’t who I really wanted by my side. I saw my ex’s car last night and my brain hamsters might just have well mainlined heroin. Yup, vague or regretful longing covers it.

        • I can relate WWDSG. It takes a long long time to fall OUT of love with your partner.
          Married 36 yrs…and it took me about 2.5 yrs to finally fall out of love.
          It was tough, but i’m finally out of love and that got me at Meh.
          I don’t care about him at all, but we had a contentious and expensive divorce for no reason and now it’s over.

          So yeah, I’d say – it’s a good 3 year process from DDday (depending on that was) to Divorce Day.

            • And…well, after 4 yrs of this…I’m STILL on the forums.
              You gotta give yourself time to figure out all the mindfuckery.

              • I’m going to say you may want to find a different home if you have ghosts of your X in your existing home.
                That would be a buzz-kill on a new relationship.

          • Thanks, SheChump. Your story and most of the ones on here are so much worse than mine. I feel weak sometimes, but I really thought I’d found what I’d always wanted. I didn’t see the end coming. I wish I could get angry and hate her, but I don’t have it in me.

            I’ve considered moving, but I always come up with a million reasons why I don’t. I get overwhelmed with the idea of finding somewhere else, of it costing more, of leaving where I’ve been for 14 years, etc. I don’t handle stress all that well. I’m trying to accomplish one small thing a week, such as finally getting bulk pickup scheduled for a picnic table she left behind.

            • And paint your house, find colors you like take all the stuff down and paint. Then you can decorate it however you like. Move the furniture around, problematic piece? Replace it. I still live in MY house and I’ve made it mine again. Not quite done yet but getting there. Jedi Hugs!

    • SS, hopium is such a powerful drug. It’s what kept me in my marriage for 31 years. I kept hoping things would get better, that one day he’d wake up and realize he had a family who loved him. It didn’t happen, and he ended up leaving just as my kids got married and moved away. Looking back, I realize that although I tried so hard to get over the first incident of his betrayal, I never really trusted him again, even though I wanted to. Sometimes when things are broken they can’t be put back together, no matter how much you wish they could be.

    • “Reading the title, about giving up, made me cry. I’m not sure how I even got to this place of giving up. ”

      Oh sosad, you are not ‘giving up’, You are having boundaries. Drawing a fucking line in the sand. Finally.

      I know a great deal about the ‘never give up’ syndrome. It is potentially lethal. At the very least, one faces a need for palliative care if the syndrome is allowed to progress. It has the grip of a heroin addiction. And the only cure is ‘quitting’.

    • SS, I wish there was a GoFundMe for anger, because I would send you a small fortune’s worth. You need to get very very very fucking angry and let it propel you thru the next steps. Sorrow and fear will not get you where you need to go. I know anger is not a natural state of being for some people, especially chumps. It wasn’t for me, I had to manufacture it out of thin air. It just takes a spark, then fan it, then use it. Get pissed! You should be pissed! And don’t waste it on the OW, that’s just a distraction.

    • So Sad sending you a big cyber hug. All the others are right.. ACTIONS not words. I believe in forgiveness, second chances, and redemption.. but someone who continually lies, repeats patterns, shows NO remorse.. that isn’t something you can work with. He’s done it over and over. This guy just wants cake.. he is stringing both YOU and OW along. Don’t get me wrong.. OW is a POS, deserves it.. but in a way, he’s abusing you both. He’s doing this because he gets away with it. Stop allowing it. Walk way, let her win the fuckwit prize.. he’s no prize!!! They are both delusional.

      I don’t know what your financial situation is.. but I wouldn’t accept 50/50 just because that’s what he wants. If he’s a lawyer he makes enough to pay child support. F him So sad. Get a better lawyer.. put in on a credit card, borrow from parents/family, whatever you need to do… get the best lawyer you can afford.

      And I agree on that Post Nup.. if he’s serious, he will do it. But he isn’t. And he sounds like a major Narc so I doubt he will give up that control. But if he refuses, you have your answer. Kick him out and start healing.

      I am so so sorry. You can vent here anytime. I can relate to people being sick of it and people not understanding.. I had someone lecture me a few days ago about being “too quick to judge adultery”.. REALLY? The masses our there just don’t get it. They don’t understand.

      Hang in there….

    • So Sad in regard to the OW wanting to love your kids (load of crap but whatever) and also have her own, unless she intentionally gets pregnant, and I’m thinking that is definitely her plan, he may dump her after you divorce him. Why should he settle for a guttersnipe skank when he may be able to land a decent woman that would have never dated a married man. I’m hoping she does get pregnant, better settlement for you and he will be chained to this piece of garbage for at least 18 years.

  • Get out for your health and sanity. My stbxw has been out for 3 weeks now and I am feeling better than I have in years.
    We are 50/50, my kids are older. I like having a week off at the moment. I was mom and dad for the last year as she was gone somewhere most of time. Now she has to cook and clean. Every situation is different, just need to put yourself in the drivers seat and drive!

  • I was losing my mind while my daughters were with him in the beginning. I would sit there from Friday night to Sunday Night watching television, crying, eating, sleeping and barely lifting my head. It sucked. But with time it got less sucky, then ok, then better than ok, then good and then refreshing.

    I get all my chores done, hang with friends, relax and breathe. I am a better mom now because we all know with children you’re exhausted all the time especially when the other half of your marriage is never around. It gives me time for me to regroup and become more patient.

    You don’t want to stay with this asshole. You want to show your sons how women should be treated in a marriage. You don’t want them to follow in their father’s footsteps. He is not going to show them this, you have to be their example. Staying is not a good example.

    Listen to CL. Boy, is she wise. She is the voice in my head. Let her be the voice in your head and fight!!!!!

    Good luck.

    • This2, thanks so much for sharing your experience. It’s good to know that we all can adjust and survive the things we never thought possible to endure. I’ve experienced the same…not believing I could live on my own to actually enjoying it.

      • “I’ve experienced the same…not believing I could live on my own to actually enjoying it.”

        This is so true for me! I was terrified to be on my own.
        Went from parents to a 36 yr marriage. Now, suddenly to face this vacuum without my old life – my knees shook plenty.

        And, I kept reading here and putting one foot in front of the other – it was almost automatic and things needed doing and I really don’t really remember that much of my anger now, packing up the house without a whit of his help.

        I bought an old little house and remodeled it so it fit my dogs.
        It’s my ‘dog-house’.
        I waited a full year to decide where I wanted to live – I think that’s very important.
        I chose the same little fishing village I’m in and hold my head up high.

        I am going to buy (to me) a new car since my old one is pretty old – and doing this all by myself.

        Just walking through these steps in Zombie mode got me to where I am today.
        I am over the moon happy.
        I live alone and don’t want anybody messing with me.
        My big boy (190#’s of pure joy) takes care of that as far as men coming around…and I encourage him.
        I feel extraordinarily vulnerable as a single woman suddenly and I take that seriously.
        I have a lot of pride in my house and how the simple remodel turned out and glad to be in a decent neighborhood.
        Finally, a simple house! And, only dog couches – no room for humans.
        Just the way I like it.

        I never had any control at all when married.
        I used to say we broke up over ordering some new bar-stools (which was true) and I’m so glad I’ve never had an argument about furniture again.
        In fact, I never argue at all – being by myself.

        Please have faith.
        You will get there because a vacuum always fills up with positive things when you stay with a positive outlook, whether you feel like it or not.

  • I wish I had earth shattering advice that would change your life sosad. It hurts to think about the kids, especially when they are so young. All I can do is implore you to play the long game for your children’s sake and take care of yourself.

    Like many people here I didn’t know how bad things were until I got out, created some distance from Narkles the Clown, and detoxed from all the BS. If you stay for any reason please find a counselor who supports you and keep coming here. There are some great folks who have played the long game who I am sure can give you great advice.

  • UXworld, “We are empaths and we are wired to sacrifice ourselves in favor of those we love and want to protect. Your Cheater’s actions are forcing you to go against your nature — trust us, this is an instance where your following your instinct will be your downfall. ”

    We don’t need to stop following our instincts–we need to change our notion of what “sacrifice” is, relative to marriage and children. We are not required to debase ourselves, to ignore our own deep inner needs, or to tolerate abuse. That isn’t loving and protecting our kids; that’s failing to protect them from the fallout of living in an abusive home. The problem is equating “saving the marriage” and “keeping an intact nuclear family” with protecting the kids. So Sad’s cheater husband is a dangerous man. He has zero boundaries. He’s already doing serious damage to the kids by exposing them to his affairs and his affair partners as if they were nothing but props. He models cheating, lying, gaslighting and emotional abuse. He demonstrate breathtaking disrespect for his wife and thus models that for his kids. I suspect, given So Sad’s pick-me dance, that there is much worse that she hasn’t told us.

    Uxworld’s point, though, is well taken, once someone in So Sad’s situation understands that “sacrifice” and “protect” here means “willing to fight to protect herself and the kids.” And if this guy is this horrific five years into the marriage, what will he be like in 5 more years?

    • “I suspect, given So Sad’s pick-me dance, that there is much worse that she hasn’t told us.”

      You’re so right. I could write all day about the things that have happened over the past year. Like, for example, the time last summer–when he was temporarily living with her and her roommates (yes, ick)–when he came home and told me that he’d come home if I agreed to just submit to him sexually, no questions asked.

      I did not agree to that then or ever, but it is a window into his sense of entitlement and the expectations he has set for this pick me dance.

      • Oh, honey. Go no contact with this hyena. He is a dangerous man. Two years from now seems like a long time, but two years away from him and you will never again consider a pick me dance. With anyone. Do whatever you need to do to save yourself. You’re young! You have kids to raise, and a career! The possibilities for your life are endless. Once I stopped pining after Jackass and got on with my life, I found that even at my age (64) the sky is the limit. Lots of wonderful things to do, lots of kids and animals to love, lots of people to meet who aren’t disordered jackasses.

        • I wish I had a friend like you in my life, as at 54, I am ill, and feel too frail and broken to move on. It is the worst kind of stuck. I just read a page that had me sobbing. It was called “The Surprising Truth About The Silent Treatment”. He has pulled me in and slammed me down so many times that I don’t feel like I can keep digging my way out of it. The illness I have been fighting is still with me, and his help with treatment is the only thing keeping me alive. I know it sounds crazy, but the help for it is totally not covered by insurance. Had I been young and well when I saw how this was going to turn out, I would have backed out years ago. In a few days it is going to be our 11th anniversary, and I am sick to think of it. I can’t think of a card that tells the truth about how I feel, but it would be hilarious if I could find my true feelings with some catchy Hallmark imagery and design.

      • Living with her and her roomates? Disgusting and embarrasing. How old is he? Nevermind. The X is 50 and still pushes girls in the pool. Well, he does now. If I had any idea, seen any puberty-like attention getting stunts, I would have d.i.e.d. and never spoken to him again. There is nothing, nothing sexy about that. Eeewwww.

        Same with your idiot. What a pig. Another chump said this one day, and it applies: what do you expect from a pig but a grunt.

        Take care.

  • So Sad. What a horrid situation for you and your children.

    There are a lot if things in your favor though.

    Pro. Your husband is a complete scuz. There’s no ambiguity here. He is fucking a whore and refusing to stop. He’s been cheating all your marriage and probably before. You don’t love him, you love your children and what your life SHOULD be.

    Pro. 50/50 custody. He doesn’t want this. OW doesn’t want this. He wants to AVOID child support. My own ex tried this one. We had a three year old in church class last night, and let me say I am thankful it was just one hour. He is sweet, but very exhausting.

    Pro. The Long Term affair. If they have been together four years it’s winding down, even if they don’t acknowledge it. Your husband isn’t going to voluntarily give up the free easy piece of ass while he has you at home keeping his life together and making it easy for him and her. Cake, cake, cake, yum. That’s all he is getting. Serve him the shit sandwiches of divorce, child support, and time for him and his whore to REALLY get to know one another.

    He sounds like a psychopath anyway.

  • I also think the 50/50 custody thing is a threat designed to control you. He knows how important your boys are to you, so it’s an easy way to keep you in line, I.e. not divorce. Fight for traditional every other weekend visitation and child support. Don’t let this fucker and a secretary intimidate you.

  • Spot on again CL. And I wholeheartedly agree with the comment above “if you raise your sons with this fuckwit, they’ll think the way Daddy behaves is how men should behave… do you want that legacy?” – my EXH absolutely hated his cheating, lying father who would come and go, we’d lie in bed laughing at the tv show Cheaters and how dumb the chumps and fuckwits and OW/OM were. Little did I know that my perfect world was a front for the vile disgusting double cheating life he was leading. His dad megamultiplied. And yes, everyone thought my ex was just charming and fun and great dad and great hubby, volunteered to coach, etc, etc – it was all about keeping up the image. Threw his ass out on day one D-day – NO WAY was I going to have my two young sons growing up thinking that behavior is OK, and now way were girls ever going to thing being treated that way was OK. For months he CYA and did everything some attorney told him to to get back in my good graces – therapist, church, sexaholic anonymous – oh the progress he claimed to be making while I documented the shit out of everything, hired a PI and presented his ass with divorce papers and all the pics/vidoes/OW testimonies (I had the phone bills/text records – called and spoke with them – most didn’t know me and my kids existed) – and the credit cards that showed he defrauded his company by not being at work when he was supposed to and also falsified expense reports to pay for it all since I was in charge of finances and would have known if a penny was missing or unallocated in our tight budget – cause we had the HUGE house and oh so successful/amazing image that he needed. Get the financial records, get a PI and start that daily journal of documentation – I stalled playing nice appearing to consider reconciliation while I sleuthed. No way will he keep up whatever custody he is given in the end – too much work and not enough fun! Stay strong, get mad and be FIERCE for yourself and your kids when needed.

    • TID! You are one of the mightier ones – I’d call you a damn good Bitch (and I use that word affectionally referring to dogs) so it’s a compliment. Love your style and advice here. When I started figuring things out, I got really nervous and the more I copied and found, the angrier I got. Finding huge hidden accounts. Yes – get fucking MAD and FIERCE for your own life and children. This iS a life and death situation.

      Just saying that last sentence because my once-very gentle X became very violent towards me at the end and wound up stealing incredible assets.
      Thankfully, I was smarter and he never got away with it.

      He just lost complete dignity, that’s all.
      And obviously, his mind.

  • SS, you are in for a surprise on how kick-ass you will feel if you take the aggressive path. Initially it may be painful, but you’ll dump this cheating-while-you’re-pregnant absolute piece of shit and also dump your inner chumpiness. You will win and feel better, I guarantee you.

  • SoSad–your children deserve a vibrant mother, not one who is broken because she has accepted being emotionally raped on a daily basis (because that’s what cheating is). Will they see you traumatized during a divorce, especially if cheater is a lawyer? Absolutely, but that is short term trauma; staying with a cheater is soul-sucking long-term trauma (and one reason to think hard about the postnupt idea–I myself could not have tolerated my fuckwit long enough to get the postnup in place and then wait to collect evidence of him cheating. Betrayal makes our limbic system scream DANGER! DANGER! every time we see the abuser, and it takes a mighty heap of pharmaceutical cocktail to tamp it down. Not for me.)

    • “Betrayal makes our limbic system scream.” After 18 mo. of separation and bullshit, I couldn’t stand to hear his voice, his name, anything to do with him. I thought I saw him one night, and bolted. It wasn’t fear. I don’t know what it was, but I had to get away. Had to. He’s so revolting that I have a physical (it feels primal) reaction. Run. You said DANGER. It doesn’t feel like danger, but no doubt it’s wrapped up in the limbic system. Thank you for that, it never occurred to me.

    • Great article Lyn. The consequences for the spouse who was cheated on are serious. People don’t realize that it takes a toll on your body and you may end up with some form of serious illness. How is that looking out for your children, if you keep putting yourself in harm’s way, and then you’re too sick to be there for your own children? Also, being cheated in my opinion is like finding out a family member of yours tried to kill you. No matter how much they apologize and how they state they have changed, it will be nearly impossible to trust them again, even though you’re supposedly related (through marriage or by blood). I’d like to see a study done on partners who remain with cheaters and how their health fares in all this. I’m certain that the majority, if not all partners end up with some form of physical illness, if not permanent.

      • I know I was seriously ill during my marriage. Suffered with cancer, endometriosis, IBS, horrible sinus problems, etc. After he left I found a list of things he loved about OW. “She’s healthy” was on his list.

        • Oh, how horrible Lyn. All the research and books I’ve been reading shows that all this mental and emotional stress takes a toll on your body. If there’s too much of it, our body is not able to handle all the adrenalin and toxic emotions, and if you can’t explode, you implode, meaning it manifests in illnesses. The body always speaks the truth. That’s what people don’t realize that you will end up with some form of illness, sometimes terminal. Your ex was very likely the cause of all your illnesses.

            • Lyn, yes I do believe we internalize before we realize.
              The heart and mind signals are misfiring!
              I only say out of gut feelings that eventually the coward will suffer yet another heart attack! He will ignore the signs like he did the first one. Which he actually tried to BLAME me for. I didnt care. What a fucking creep.
              He survived that at 50!
              Oh but now, almost 53, next month! Ex’s now graduated “store whore” baker acted girlfriend” 4x, rumor has it, gf is having a baby at 23! Yep parents! Such joy!
              What a freaking show!
              A circus!
              Hope she is his new emergency contact. Cause if I get a call I will hang up.
              You reap what you sow!
              I will say this, grandpa still reaches out, but I have learned those one word responses; no, yes, right and bye!
              I am learning to insulate ME! Protection mode.
              Grandpa still has contact with my daughter, however my son has pretty much dismissed him! He tells me “he is a fucking mess ma” indeed!
              I just really pray he does not set my daughter up, yet once again, like s bowling pin, with his shit!
              He tells her all the time, cries, “mom so mean.” Really, and you and I should be nice why? He is a user and abuser!
              Enjoy you new family!
              He shit on us, hope that new one is better for you hancuffed boy!

    • So true. There’s even long term effects that you don’t realize at the time. I’ve been on this site for 2 1/2 years, back when I first came on, had a conversation with other chumps about how we couldn’t do some of the things we used to love due to the PTSD. I still, to this day, can’t read a book. I have an English degree and used to read voraciously. Now I read a few pages, put it down, and don’t pick it up again. I want that back, and I know the passage of time will help, but for right now, I just live with it. It’s gotten better. I used to only read a sentence or two then get distracted. Now at least I can focus all day long. We all have something that lingers, just wish it wasn’t that way…

      • Scott, I was the same way but 4 years out have managed to start reading again. Joining a book club helped. Don’t give up!

        • That one does get better. Takes a while yes…and now I’m on BP meds because of long periods without proper rest, but now I often go to bed at 10 and get a solid 8 hours. Sometimes longer. I agree with Lyn. As time passes so many things start to get more relaxed, and I’m back to enjoying some things I couldn’t for a long time. But PTSD does some wicked things to your brain for a while…

          • I don’t do meds. I started having trouble sleeping when a very close friend of mine collapsed and died at work. Then my mother descended into dementia and the phone calls at night from the nurses started. Jackass was the icing on that cake. But I keep plugging away.

  • This is why I am scared to move back and am currently living 6,000 miles away from STBXH and OWhore… So my daughter (whom he has never met because he never made it back for the birth due to his cheating and then me wanting a divorce), will NOT have OW in her life. The custody over there says I am in charge of evrythng and he can visit once every two weeks under my supervision in a place I choose and can not bring other people. But when she gets older, and he manipulates her… She will want to spent time with him alone and what if he is still with OWhore who knowingly got involved with my husband while I was overseas for a difficult pregnancy. I can not bare the thought she would say as much as hi to my daughter and have given up an entore life bacl “home” because I cant handle the thought of sociopath bitch being in my daughters life, hard enought to adjust to STBX situation without that shit.

    I am so sorry So Sad, this shit is heartbreaking and then to hand over your kids to them who were hurt as babies by this shit… not just to much. BIG HUG I know how this feels!!! I have Hate is the best username I have seen around here to describe the feeling!

  • sorry for always writing in bad grammer and spelling, just hard to find thime when you are single parenting a one year old, doing a phd, run a nonprofit and look for another paid job.

  • All true. But the deal breaker is your precious baby knowing his father introducing him to another woman was wrong and tattling to you. Any father and husband that would set that up is beyond. Just beyond.

    Nothing to work with here. Run.

  • CL, I wish your reply to sosad could be published on the front page of every major world newspaper.
    It doesn’t get more comprehensive AND down to earth than that. Thank you, on behalf all chumps.

  • Someone said it here best when they stated this guy sounds like a psychopath. I’m here to second that and to say he’s a certified psychopath. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Imagine everything else you aren’t privy to or don’t know that he did or said? I am shuddering just thinking of this. This guy’s behavior is a mental case, and he’s really not normal. I don’t see how this can be qualified as a “pleasant pretend life”. Pretending isn’t pleasant and dealing with a nutjob like this isn’t pleasant at all. With everything you describe, you’re in hell. And I don’t see how staying for the sake of the kids makes hell any more bearable.

  • SS, I’m so sorry you are going through this and I totally understand your desire to stay so that you can regain some control of this horrible situation — at least where your children are concerned. None of us here fault you for not wanting the OW to have anything to do with your children or to steal anything more from you than your husband has already allowed… That is the worst feeling on earth — to be violated — lied to by someone you loved and in whom you put your faith to treat you in the same manner.

    However, staying, now that you know the truth, will be placing yourself directly in jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200… Your mental and physical health will suffer — your self esteem will deteriorate even more over time. The reality is that you will NOT be able to be with him nor the kids 24/7 and you will always wonder where they are and if she is with them.

    Considering his past track record, odds are he will not reform — you will cling to that hope that he might change (see the light), but likely you will only be setting yourself up for more disappointments. And IF you are able to stick it out until your kids are grown, you will feel that you missed out on having an authentic life.

    You say that you are contemplating just saying “who cares”… We all know that you DO and burying your head in the sand won’t change it. “Who cares” happens when you put a stop to the mistreatment of you. If he can’t stop, then let him go. You go forward and continue being the wonderful mom and person that you are. Your kids will grow up knowing you are always there for them. Another woman can not take that away from you. You won’t be happy living a lie and pretending everything is ok.

    If you decide to stay, please get a different marriage counselor. It’s ludicrous that the MC is not calling out your husband on his inability to “close that door once and for all” with the OW. If your husband seriously wants to reconcile and save the marriage, the first order of business is end the affair. Your husband’s waffling is merely his way of maintaining control and continuing his manipulation of you.

    Your staying, even with eyes wide open, doesn’t guarantee that your husband won’t decide to end the marriage at some point…Demand a post-nup!!! If he balks, then you walk and don’t look back.

    • I speak from 23 years of experience of staying in a marriage that was one-sided. Enduring it is nailing the lid on your own coffin. D-Day for me was 20 years in and I had put up with so much other mistreatment up to that point… All for the sake of saving the marriage and for the sake of keeping our family together for our kids. Then to find out he had been fooling around the entire time without so much as a care for anyone else but himself. I was the wife and mother appliance — he liked what I could do for him. Don’t put yourself in that position… Don’t sacrifice yourself.

      • And as someone who lived through a horrifically dysfunctional FOO, it would have been far better to have been raised by one sane person than two locked in an abusive relationship.

        • When there is high-conflict or abuse in a marriage, I think the general consensus would be that ending the marriage would be best for all involved, especially where there are children involved. Our kids have the right to be safe physically and emotionally. They didn’t ask to be brought into this world and is our responsibility as parents to protect them.

  • sosad

    Hugs. Is your state one of those that allow for alienation of affection lawsuits? If so, I would not be afraid to use this as a tool to get what you want out of a settlement — ie an EOW custody type situation. You don’t have to file the lawsuit to use it as a tool — your husband and the whore just have to think you are serious…..

  • Look through the smoke and mirrors….who INVITED the OW into your home and INVITED her to spend time with your kids. That’s right — your husband.

    Who in their right mind would introduce an affair partner to little ones like that? What is the narrative he has told to make it seem legit to a three year old. On the flip side, what kind of narrative has he told to the OW that she thinks it is cool?

    My very wise therapist gave this advice “don’t listen to his words, pay attention to his behavior/his actions”. I can almost guarantee that his words aren’t matching up to his behavior.

    Please don’t give up or give in — get out. Get a pitbull lawyer to protect you and to protect your little ones.

    IMO you have a strong case for 70/30 custody. I’ve never known an attorney who didn’t spend 60-80 hours working. It doesn’t take much to figure out there isn’t much time left to dedicate to a young family.

  • I had considered not divorcing to be able to be around my kids 100% of the time. But I would have had to ignore his lying and cheating (found tru wuv on Ashley Madison prior to conception of kiddo #2) and death of my soul. It’s hard letting the kids go visit dad and gf, but less stressful than dealing with him and his baggage on a daily basis.

    Fear held me from filing for a while. In hindsight, he wasn’t participating around the home, so there was minimal change with him gone.

  • So Sad, I don’t consider staying to be an option. The OW who dares to come into your home to hold your baby is going to demand your cheating husband dump you and marry her so she can produce a baby of her own. Quite possibly, she’s going to “accidentally” get pregnant to speed this along. At that point, you are going to be divorced anyway, but your ex will have the upper hand, and another kid to support, thus less child support for your two sons.

    Now’s your chance to get a more desirable settlement and support order. Listen to CL. Find a tough attorney and take your ex for all you can get. He’s not going to want such young kids 50/50… he will fight for that initially because he doesn’t want to pay child support. That’s all this is about. Once the reality of half his time spent dealing with preschoolers hits, he’ll be less enthused. And once the OW pops out her own spawn, she isn’t going to want children she sees as a threat — because they are a constant reminder that she is cheating filth married to a cheating pig — around.

    Your ex isn’t breaking anything off and he is still cheating. NO it is not acceptable to stick your head in the sand and pretend this isn’t happening. Is that the example of manhood you want modeled for your sons? That a husband gets to ball a mistress while a wife pretends it isn’t happening?

    I’m sorry for your pain. From brutal experience, I can tell you that if you stay, the pain will never go away, but if you take action and divorce, the pain will rise to a crescendo of agony, but then slowly subside and eventually heal. And then you will be free to find a decent man who doesn’t cheat and lie. THAT’S the example of manhood you want for your babies. And that’s the man you deserve for yourself.

  • I think cheaters say things like, “I’m committed 110%!” and so on because they really think on some level that saying it makes it true. If they SAY they are committed to the marriage, then they are–no matter what they are doing. You caught them texting the OW again? Well, geez, I SAID I was 110% committed to the marriage and making this work. Why don’t you BELIEVE me? If you do divorce, then they will be ASTOUNDED and tell all the friends, “I TOLD her I was sorry! I TOLD her I was 110% committed to making the marriage work! She divorced me anyway!” And now aren’t you the unforgiving bitter bunny. In the mind of a cheater, your reality should be whatever they tell you it should be. Never mind what is really going on. That’s a whole other thing and not your business, according to the narcissist mind.

  • OH SS. I am so sorry. To be such a newlywed with babies and to face this kind of situation is absolutely horrible. The others who have posted are right … this guy does not truly want little kids. Neither does the other woman. OW is just pretending because she wants your husband. And your husband doesn’t want child support payments. Be brave and fight knowing they might get the 50/50 they say they want … I am certain you will soon find yourself with full custody of your precious children. More importantly, suppose you choose to stay and eat shit sandwiches for the next 20 years and suppose that your husband doesn’t just walk out but most definitely keeps cheating for that entire time. How will you feel in 20 years knowing how disgracefully you have been treated the entire time? As someone who is just now learning that the past 30 years of my life were a complete lie … I urge you to not be me. Please. Save yourself. You WILL do the best you can for those babies because you truly love them and put them first. Your husband will never do that and you know it. Neither with OW. Hugs to you. Now go fight.

  • Sharing custody sucks. But there are some benefits. When you’re together raising kids, you end up picking up his slack and basically hiding (from the kids and outsiders alike) the fact that your cheater is a shitty parent. I guarantee even HE doesn’t realize what a shitty father he is. When you separate, at first the cheater and the tramp will play happy families and congratulate themselves on what a great job they are doing. Then, when the novelty wears off, they will get sick of the responsibility real quick (remember their impulsive and self-indulgent personalities clash with parenting lifestyle). This is where your children start to see who the real parent is and has been since day 1. They will gravitate toward the parent who clearly cares when it comes to the important things/moments in life. Alternately, they will gravitate toward the careless parent when they don’t want to be lectured or get consequences, but I think it all sorts out in the end. My oldest is about to turn 14. She is one of 4 and understandably wishes she was an only child. Early in our separation (she was 11) she gave me hell for 2 days straight, everything I said her response was “I want to live with Daddy”. Broke my heart and I tried not to show it, but after hearing it over and over again I finally broke down (crying, *sigh*) and told her I understood that was what she wanted and that it would be the easy thing for me to do to stop being tortured by her incessant demands, but that I wasn’t going to give up on her because I knew that the safest place for her was with me. It wasn’t long after that before she stopped going for visitation because she recognized (without any prompting by me, btw) that she wasn’t being taken care of by him. My ex fought for as close to 50/50 as he could get to try to avoid child support. He lives 50 miles away and the court approved overnight visits on school nights, believe it or not. Anyway, he cancels at least 50% of the time and the kids recognize his pattern and know he is a joke. My second-born daughter (12) has been skipping visitation too, and youngest (8) can’t wait until she is old enough to stay behind, so I predict that in a few years they’ll all be doing it.

  • I am so sorry you have to go through this SS. I can’t add anything to the wonderful advice from CL and the others and I think Rumblekitty is right about the power of getting angry. If it helps you to bring up some of that anger think about one of your beautiful children being treated like you are in a relationship. I am guessing you would want to stomp that mf into the ground. So please be that love for yourself and using all of the advice here, stomp that mf into the ground.

  • So Sad, I am so sorry, but you cannot and will not be able to reconcile with a fuck wit in an affair. Period. That will not work. Clearly the OW is entrenched.. and your H is a first class fuckwit.

    I think Chumplady’s strategy of asking for Post Nup is great advice. Unlike most on this blog, I believe reconcilation is possible under the right circumstances… it’s rare, but it can happen. But the absolute #1 think you need for that is remorse from the WS.. and continuing with the whore doesn’t qualified. However, asking for the Post Nup.. one of two things will happen. 1.. he balks.. then you have your answer. 2. He goes along, in which case, you are covered. Make sure you cover custody, division of assets, etc in that agreement, check with an attorney but Post Nups can be very effective documents.

    If he balks, I wouldn’t let him scare you off because he’s a lawyer…. hire a better one.. the best one money can buy.. trust me, worth every damn cent. Take his ass to court and take your chances. And I agree with CL.. the whore is only interested in your kids because she’s trying to bag your husband… once she has him… she will lose interest and so will he. Taking care of young kids is a real buzzkill for la la land. I am of the opinion that accepting 50/50 and shitty support is not an option. Get a better lawyer.

    HUGS.. this isn’t your fault and you are young… claim your life. You deserve better.

  • Big Hugs to you SoSad-
    Sorry that you are going through this but glad you found CL & CN. Please don’t give up & don’t stay with the cheater for the sake of your precious babies. You will be sacrificing yourself and their futures. My son was 4 when dday happened. I was a SAHM with no job, income, or anywhere else to go. I was so overwhelmed with everything & thought that I had to keep our little family together no matter what the cost. The first positive step I made was getting an awesome therapist for me (because of course stbx doesn’t have any issues). Through therapy, some time, and finding CL-I realized that stbx is a common, garden variety cheater narcissist and my son & I deserved better than that. AND in order for me to want better for my son, I had to want better for myself. Thanks to CL & CN, I made a plan for my exit to get out. My biggest hurdle was stbx refusing to leave our house and accepting that I would miss out on half of my son’s life. Yes, it sucks to have to give up a portion of your children’s lives but it is not worth cutting your own life short due to stress, illness, etc. Your children need you to be the sane parent and to be there for them for the long haul. Even though I had been married, I was really a single parent from the get-go with him being an absent father. Of course, he threatened to take my son from me which is common. But since he is a narcissist, I knew he wasn’t going to want full custody of a 4 yr old. It gets old for them when it can’t be all about them.

    Being divorced is not the worst thing that could happen-Trust me. I have the pain tolerance of a gnat and if I can get through it, anyone can.

  • So Sad,
    I can really relate to your situation. I wanted so bad to keep my family together that I put up with my cheating husband for 28 years (16 years married). I always had that hope that he would see how much his family loved him and realize he had so much too loose and give up his cheating ways. Two and half decades later he is still doing the same thing but even worse than before. The thing is I showed him by staying with him that it was okay to devalue me, it was okay to disrespect me, it was okay to not honor our wedding vows and it was okay to cheat on me because he knew when he was done “old faithful would be right there ready to pick up the broken pieces”. All this time I was waiting on him to change when all along I was the one that needed to change. Change the way I was viewing my situation. I was staying in this train wreck of a marriage to keep my family together. But, now I think shame on me for keeping my children in that dysfunction. Now, my two children are grown I have a wonderful relationship with them (I thank God every day for that because it could have turned out so differently). Their relationship with their father is not so good even though he was in the same household all these years. He was so self-absorb over years that his children got overlooked. My daughter looks at the marriage between my husband and she have all vowed to never get married because of all the dysfunction she seen between us through the years. I have decided to file for divorce and start moving forward towards a life where I have value and a life where I matter. I wish you the best in your situation.

  • I’m really sorry for what you are going through. So many of us did as well. I sure did: I pick-me-danced for eight months while my XW pretended to break it off, but didn’t, then sort of, but not really…all while going to so-called marriage counseling. I simply would not accept that it was over, dead. Finally I divorced her and my–and yours–worst fears came true: she she got 44% custody, moved out young children in with the AP, and thus began two years and counting of hell: crying, begging calls from my children to come get them, they don’t like AP and he doesn’t like them… Now they are getting married.

    So, it’s horrible, no doubt. BUT: here I am. I did it. I left a poisonous, vile person whom I nevertheless loved deeply. And I am Ok. I no longer want her back. I am a great dad when the kids are with me, they are doing a little better over there, and I have learned to let it go when they are there. It was indeed the worst experience of my life, but I AM OK. Do you hear me? I pushed through it. I grieved. For a long time I was just surviving, but now I am living. And so will you. Please believe me. Leave this man. He doesn’t love you. Internalize it. I know it’s hard. Literally as I was driving to my attorney to file (it took me at least five appointments to get to the point where I didn’t back off and “give her some more time”), I recited aloud, “She doesn’t love me, she doesn’t love me…” I cried. I sobbed. And I don’t any more. Stop doing this to yourself NOW. Be strong. All the best.

    • I want to add this: “…might be MORE painful than just sticking my head in the sand and moving on with our pleasant, pretend little life.”

      Again, this is what I thought too. In fact I was SURE it would be more painful. That’s what kept me in the hell of limbo while my XW slaughtered our sacred family with her selfishness.

      This was a fear, a terror in fact, and a normal defense mechanism against the pain of the unknown. But it’s just that: fear. And fear is a con-artist; it tells you lies. Is my reality–sharing my children with the AP, seeing them half of their childhood, etc.–painful? Yes. It hurts like hell. But it is NOT–NOT–more painful than feeling my soul, my dignity, die a slow, excruciating death. And that’s what it felt like–like I was dying. So no: Don’t believe your fear. It’s your enemy, and you must slay it. Take that step off the cliff. It looks like a bottomless abyss right now. It’s not: it’s a step to a new life. Right now that step is shrouded in darkness. Trust yourself and trust those of us who have been there. The life you are living–that I was living–was no life at all. It was a living death. Get back to the life you deserve, So Sad. File NOW. No more excuses, no more dilly-dallying at the expense of your sanity. You will not be sad forever.

  • Hope I am not repeating what others have written. Have you checked to see if he is into porn? Does he lie about little things? Is he inconsistent in lots of areas? The fact that he started cheating so early in your marriage is the red flag from hell. It means he is addicted to excitement. If a person is truthful in all parts of their life they are usually monogamous. If they have the need for more and more excitement they continue to cheat and lie. His behavior is probably already bleeding into his professional life. Ethics, good morals don’t live in pigeonholes. They are a part of the fabric of a person. Your husband is not good marriage material. He is going to cheat on anyone he starts a relationship with.

    There are women, and some men, blogging who, in their 30s, 40s and 50s have found that their spouses started cheating early in their marriages. Some for close to 40 years. These are articulate people blown away at the abilities of their spouses to lie so easily. Trust CL when she tells you to pay attention to his actions. Talk is cheap.
    Charm does not equal good morals.

  • When I read posts about chumps who have to give up custody time to these cheating jackasses, it makes me sick. But as painful as it is not to have your kids 24/7, here are some things to think about.
    1. One way or the other, the kids must learn to deal with the disordered parent–whether the cheater lives at home, somewhere in an apartment alone, or with an AP. As CL would say, this is the result of breeding with a fucktard.
    2. What keeping the home “intact” does is put you in the position of enabling the cheater to maintain a false relationship to the kids. You cover up, you gloss over, you take on most or all of the child-rearing work, you explain things away, you say things like “This person is your father or mother and you must respect…”. You are the impression management agent that allows the cheater to put on the facade of “parent” to the kids and to the world. This is like gaslighting kids, who see the cheating parent’s abuse and neglect of the family but must play out the role of “happy kid in happy family.”
    3. Cheaters living on their own have to find their own way to relate to the kids. And the kids (if you refuse to buffer) can learn to make their own judgment about what kind of person Cheaterpants is–how loving, how honest, how loyal, how reliable, how kind.

    In a way, separation and divorce provide the surest path to mental health for chumps and the kids. It’s painful and sad. But it puts everyone in a position to have words and deeds and values in alignment. It puts kids in a position to see that wounding others deeply has consequences, that marriage is not a game of domination and abuse, that an intact family requires commitment and fidelity.

    • I completely agree, LAJ. The amount of impression management I was doing with the kids when ex and I were still together was invisible even to me until we weren’t together anymore. I feel like the kids know me better now than they did before, when I was a hovering presence in the background keeping everything organized and running smoothly while ex showboated in the foreground.

  • There is no winning this situation, but by staying you lose far more.

    If I could turn back time I would have left when daughter was 3. 10 years later he left us in a wreckage. Having No father at all would have been better for my kid. Seriously.

    Leave in your terms. It will suck at first but I PROMISE you that 10 years from now you won’t regret it.

  • My situation was different in that I do not have children and I didn’t do the pick me dance (thanks to CL and CN, actually. The timing was perfect).

    However, I can absolutely sympathize you wanting to give up. I totally get it. This shit is exhausting, and not what you asked for. He took a total dump on your life and you have to clean it up or let it stink. Not great choices. I can see how you can look at the choices CL gave you and go, “I don’t want to do ANY of those things, I just want my life back.” I get it. We all do, and we have all been there, regardless of our individual experiences.

    Last year, 3 months after my divorce was final, and 2 DAYS after I closed on the refi on my house, I fell off a ladder and broke both heel bones. I was bedridden for 4 months at my parents’ house.

    Talk about wanting to give up. I wanted to die.

    I’m still not 100%, but I’m here. And I didn’t give up. If I can’t give up, you can’t either.

    This no doubt will suck. For maybe even a long time. But I promise things will fall into place how they’re supposed to, and your life will be better, and you will have more cuddles and bath times with your babies; without that undeserving dumbass.

    Huge hugs! xo

  • Dear So Sad- think of it this way.yes, it sucks that the OW might get to play with your children. But while she is playing with your children, you can sleep. Or read. Or take a shower. All the things that mothers of young children, especially those with disengaged partners, never get to do. If you stay , you will do 95% of the parenting. Sharing custody FORCES their father to look after them, and do some work. It doesn’t sound like you think they are are risk of physical neglect or harm in his care, so my advice is- make the most of it, because it is quite likely that , with time, they will be back with you. My daughter is now 13, and notices when her dad is being an arsehole, and is getting more upset by it- I’m waiting for the ” do I have to go to dads?” talk. And I adore my children, but when they are here life is all about them. The weekends they are with him I get to do nothing, and its good for recharging.

  • “CL is so right, your husband is not going to want two little boys in his care 50% of the time. He will want access when it suits him, and for you to do the main care and hard yards…. He just wants the good times…. This is him ”

    this is absolutely right.

    if you stay with this man you are putting your sanity seriously at risk, plus you’re also setting a pretty poor example for the kids. they know about the other woman.

    kick him to the curb. take care of yourself and your kids.

  • Jesus fuck these pricks disgust me (ca. 2015 chump).

    SS, my heart goes out to you. I threw up in my mouth a little thinking of that bitch bathing your babies. I get why the Hell of staying seems like a choice. He’s finding it hard to close that door once and for all, is he? Make sure you slam it hard, get all 8 of those fingers. No more sexy texts for a while.

    I’m so sorry, you’ll never be able to sustain staying. It’ll kill you. When you’re with the babies you won’t really be with them. You’ll never feel “safe” again. Not with him. Ever. That’s a hard pill to swallow and it takes time. It takes your friends, your family, therapy. It takes a mad dog attorney.

    Small towns suck, they really do. They all seem to know each other. I hope you have someone who can give you a name, make a call, send out the bat signal. That lawyer is for your children, for their future and for right now – they need a mom who’s protected by a rottie so she’s freer to nurture them. Or get thru the day without her head exploding in a million pieces.

    Please, find someone to protect your little family from that motherfucking, cocksucking bastard. And, document, document, document everything. What’s that slut have in her background? If you can afford it, a PI maybe? You may not be able to use it in court, but it could give you some leverage. The CL post-nup is a winner if you can get it. Stay connected, the chumps here know your pain. You can do this. Hang in there. One day at a time. Meanwhile, I’ll stick pins in 2 voodoo dolls.

  • Hi So Sad. Sorry you are in this position. I only really have one word of advice RUN!!!! I stayed for 20 years. He promised he would change, I threatened to leave, he begged me not to. He finally ran off with the final OW (I have no idea how many there were but quite a few), packed up while I was at work without even a word to me. It never changes. I am on the other side and yes it is Tuesday and I have reached MEH. It is a long hard haul and many nights of crying but you will get there. I wished when he would stay out all night, come home with bites on his neck, I should have left. Should have dumped his ass but I stayed for the kids and for my “marriage”. What a joke… keep going for your babies and for your soul. You don’t realise until you are out of all the mindfuckery how bad it really was. Hugs x

  • So Sad,

    If you stay, stay with this in mind: He doesn’t love you, but if you offer yourself up to be used, he will use you. He will use you for your cooking and housekeeping skills, babysitting and child care, image management as the perfect family and sex when the OW isn’t around. You will not be able to believe anything he says or trust him when he is out of your sight. This deal may be just what he is looking for but not good for you.

    When D-Day hits, we get a clue of what our disordered spouse has known for a long time: The marriage is a sham, a ruse. First impressions are lasting, and the impression that our disordered spouse made on us at the beginning, during the Idealization phase, was one that led us to believe that they truly loved us. However, once the feelings of infatuation fade, the disordered spouse is unable to bond with feelings of love. They simply no longer have feelings for us and begin to look for someone else that they can experience the excitement of Idealization with again. It is at this time that they act, or pretend to be in a committed relationship with us. This is the beginning of the Devaluation phase, which is a mixture of real abuse and fake love. They are faking it because we are of use to them: someone to make a home for them, watch the kids, support them and provide just the right image of family for them. They know all along that they are not in love with us but they are okay with making us think that they are – because the deception serves the purpose of them getting what they want. What they want is to cheat and deceive. So when D-Day hits, it is the betrayed spouse who must now re-wire their brain to align with reality. The cheater has been aware of the reality all along; that they don’t really love their spouse and it is their succession of APs that excite them and that they love. The betrayed spouse, since the early days of Idealization, has built up the cheater in their mind. The cheater is like a monument in the mind of the betrayed spouse. When D-Day hits, the reality of who the cheater really is begins to break through and this monument of the Idealized Cheating Spouse must be torn down, bit by bit, piece by piece. It is a re-wiring of the brain that takes some time. D-Day requires an attitude adjustment of monumental proportions for the betrayed spouse – and one that cannot be made overnight. The disordered cheater goes from King or Queen of the betrayed spouse’s world to persona non grata. The only thing that the disordered change are their masks and their victims.

    • Chumptacular – I have to say that your post is excellent on all counts. I kept nodding every step of the way, from he does not love you, to he will use you if you let him. And the cheater has been aware of this reality all along. Fabulous post all around!

      • SS I think I “get” what the problem is here. It’s not the money or “settlement issues” of concern here, because you are confident that you can move forward in that regard. It is the “what if he REALLY means it this time” thing…that YOU’D be the one “throwing away” any possibilities of a renewed marriage (ie “the cheating made our marriage stronger stuff” given out by the RIC)…AND, you can’t stomach the thought that the OW will replace you as “mommy”. Am I correct?

        Okay then, lets take a look at that in a pragmatic way.
        Your kids are VERY young…so it wont be as hard on them INITIALLY if you split up their home NOW. Eventually they will get into school where over half of those children are from “blended families”. Okay…so that seems to be the “new normal” in this day and age…no biggie.

        If you wait until they are in late Grammar school or Middle School, they will have already picked up on the “dysfunctional family atmosphere” and will be living on pins and needles as a result. They are very intuitive even if nothing is said about the cheating outright…and if/when you spill the beans, you will come off as a poster child for being a parent/person without boundaries…which then, they will likely disrespect you and take advantage of you in their teens…no biggie…you can cross that bridge when you get there.

        The OW gets to bathe your kids and read to them ect…I have no doubt that she will be doing all that simply to audition for marriage/children from your husband. She will create the BEST scenario for a “happy family life” possible. Your kiddies will actually benefit from that…as opposed to a mean Skank that resents having your kids around just so your “Ex” does not have to pay Child Support…no biggie…at least your kiddo’s will think that they are safe and loved regardless of whose house they are in.

        But that is just temporary. Once she snags (marries) Ex, then your own children will lose ALL of their luster since she now has what she wanted (him and her own children). This means less and less time will be taken away from you with your children in the near future. You are still “mommy” and always will be regardless.

        You can always revisit the Child Support issues when you document time spent with the Ex in the future.

        So that STILL leaves you with the “what if he REALLY means it this time” thingy (real remorse). Well, the ONLY way you will KNOW for sure if he is being true blue is if you begin to play “marriage detective” in earnest for YEARS to come. Do you REALLY have the time or inclination to do that, what with raising two Tots?? My thought is to go ahead and stick around if it makes you feel better…why? Because you WILL eventually come to the end of yourself naturally and finally say “fuck it”. At that time, your fears and grief will give way to your own natural ANGER…then you can charge him like a Banshee rather than responding to other people’s anger on your behalf. I predict it will take at minimum two years before the house of cards falls down…because you will live with your “radar” set on HIGH as opposed to Chumps who didn’t know anything had been going on. Your husband will simply live keeping up HIS pick me dance and go deeper underground…getting a burner phone ect. You will likely be too busy with the kids to be able to find the time to catch him any sooner…or he will get sloppy and break you until you crack.

        That’s okay…your way gives you PLENTY of time to “think” and get your duckies in a row. It also gives your husband plenty of time to set up his finances to dump you when the OW (or another one) applies enough pressure. Meanwhile, smile big, stash away money and keep getting check ups for STD’s. BONUS: If you can hang on for five more years, you’ll at least have a ten year marriage which qualifies you for drawing Social Security benefits against his income in the future (provided that you don’t remarry for two years after the divorce). In addition to that…at least you will be able to “say” that you gave him a chance. That’s what the RIC says anyway.

        Best Wishes Sweetheart

        • “SS I think I “get” what the problem is here. It’s not the money or “settlement issues” of concern here, because you are confident that you can move forward in that regard. It is the “what if he REALLY means it this time” thing…that YOU’D be the one “throwing away” any possibilities of a renewed marriage (ie “the cheating made our marriage stronger stuff” given out by the RIC)…AND, you can’t stomach the thought that the OW will replace you as “mommy”. Am I correct?”

          Yes, this has been a real fear, I’ll admit. Couldn’t have said it any clearer myself.

    • “The disordered cheater goes from King or Queen of the betrayed spouse’s world to persona non grata. The only thing that the disordered change are their masks and their victims.”

      Youn nailed that, Chumptacular!

    • “However, once the feelings of infatuation fade, the disordered spouse is unable to bond with feelings of love. They simply no longer have feelings for us and begin to look for someone else that they can experience the excitement of Idealization with again.”

      Holy shit you just summed up my marriage in two sentences. Damn.

  • Yes, I can see it. The re-wiring takes time and real effort. This feels so true and very helpful. I feel so grateful.

  • As a SAD and SEASONED veteran of the family court system, GO IN BIG, or not at all. The longer they drag it out, the more it costs anyway. Even cases of abuse with ample proof are ignored, so don’t expect any justice for simple “cheating”. Sickening situation how they fully can do as they please. We were forced to “mediate” 7 times in a 5 yr. period with four different mediators. It is all a sham. CL and the others are so right about the sham of “therapy” too. Too bad a marriage contract is NO CONTRACT at all. He screwed it up and should owe you the exact life you’d have if he hadn’t. We spend 58k over a five year nonstop battle. Still, 50/50, and 90/20, dad as primary, if mother had to relocate. What a crock, but any simple family court/domestic violence search will tell you, even if he breaks your bones, 50/50…”KIDS need a dad”, they say. Really? THIS DAD? Yep, and they will pull a baby right off the delivery table for a 50/50 nightmare. My own attorney’s adult daughter went to work for him. She whispered to me, “I grew up like that, and I hated it.” By then we were broke and screwed. My dear friend stayed until her kids were grown. Now she has 23 years worth of his retirement to compensate for the career she would have had, and says by staying, she had full custody of the kids the whole work week, there at home, and also stayed to monitor how much he could ruin them. Cheaters are not good parents, but being there helped her mitigate the influence he had on who they became. I wish there were easy answers. If women could have kids with sperm donors and support them without a mate, I can understand the inclination. And people wonder why women are angry at feeling and being oppressed. If it is any justice, Laura said she will take a great vacation every year with his retirement, and send him a post card.

  • So Sad,

    My sons were 3.5 and 3 months old when I found out about my husband’s then yearlong affair. I thought I was going to die. The things your husband and this OW are doing are abominable. Leaving for the weekend when you were NINE MONTHS pregnant?! Holding your new baby with what she was doing to you and your family?! How DARE she?! How can people do these kinds of things?! Are these pod-people?

    I pick-me-danced for about six months. The affair continued during those six months. My husband pulled the same sh!#. “I can’t stop talking to her.” “I need closure.” “I will always wonder about her if I don’t end things my way.”

    Listen So Sad, you are going to kill yourself if you stay like this. Until you’re dead inside. The things you are afraid of (divorce, 50/50 custody, her being in their life, being away from your still very young children for any amount of time, the fact that he’s an attorney and seems to have the judge in his pocket) are real and excruciating. My situation was different by the grace of God. I still had to face many of the things you are facing. And as things with my husband got more and more outrageous and terrible, I realized I had to surrender my marriage and family to Him, and ask that His grace cover me and my boys through the consequences of my choice to bring an end to my marriage. Doing this helped me tremendously, even just for my sanity. It was so much better for me to put my situation into the hands of someone who could handle it infinitely better than I could. I encourage you to do this if you haven’t.

    Either way, leave the marriage. Your husband does not truly love you or want you. Or deserve you, or fatherhood.

    if you feel the need to contact me for any reason you can email me:

  • Being a chump is hard. Being a Warrior Chump is no harder. You go to war. You’ve already been through hell. And you survived. You’re already mighty.

    I stayed and wreckinsiled for 6 hellish months. I did it for my kids. Until I realized that my kids were watching me. I didn’t want my daughter to think this was an acceptable way to expect her possible future spouse to treat her and I didn’t want my sons thinking this was an acceptable way to treat their possible future spouses.

    So I went to war.

    War is hell…but sometimes it’s worth it.

  • I kicked him out on D day then 4 weeks later filed. I made my own decree with my attorney and told my cheater sign or let the battle begin. My kids are 15 and 11. I had so much proof of his double life he got nervous and signed. I out in my decree AP was not allowed around my children. I gave him Friday nights visitation. Divorce should be final next week! It’s rough ride very emotional but you have to show your kids right from wrong. I got lucky I guess that he signed and didn’t fight.

  • One thing I would say is don’t try to get him in trouble at work for sleeping with his secretary or his boss. If you have evidence, he could potentially lose his job because companies frown upon people fraternizing with people they have power over. If him and the OW lose their jobs, it will feel like sweet justice for a little while. Then, it could be financially disadvantageous for you and the kids. So, I say let him keep his job. If he makes more, your attorney could try to get you maintenance. Also, if you do separate or file for divorce, please cut up the joint credit cards and ask an attorney about moving half the life savings into your own personal savings account.

    My ex-husband tried the same crap. He cried, telling me he couldn’t lose his best friend (the OW). He later suggested that we should be friends. I declined, deciding that I deserved better friends. And I do have better friends now.

    • JannaG, Totally agree about letting higher management know. I did initially tell him I am reporting you manager and scumbalina, they told me consensual sex by adults. He predator, she criminal, however my family said “stop”. Let them pay you for their fratanizing!
      Such assholes!
      I filwd for divorce, got three years of half payments on house, split other bullshit and processec QDRO. Which happy dick was orderex to pay on half fees for both process!
      Hope 23 yr old whore turned momma, real soon, enjoys being, Real life broke.
      Happy retirement grandpa!
      He will be 73 when new baby turns eighteen! Winner winner ! ?

  • Hey chump lady. Your musical psychologist apparently dedicated at least one blog to trashing you. It really is irrelevant, but it would make great UBT material.

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