He ‘Lost the Moral High Ground’ When He Told About His Wife’s Affair
He reached out for support and told some people about his wife’s affair. Now he’s in marriage counseling and being taken to task for telling. Did he lose the moral high ground?
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Dear Chump Lady,
I had some feedback for you about something you might not have thought about discussing before. My wife had an affair with another man both online and mostly in person. Secret vacations together, lots of time spent “helping” his family, etc…
At one point after the affair was discovered, I was in the moral right.
Especially when she still continued to see him under the guide of “hoping to quietly wrap it up without his older and frail wife” finding out.
I LOST the moral upper hand when I told too many people about it…
including a couple of her friends and some of her family members. Now we are in counseling and most of the time spent (even with a counselor I chose and trust) is about HOW I REACTED. It would be much easier to be me right now if I had chosen only a couple of people to confide in. That would mean that we would be dealing with HER issues and how she can show real remorse and repair the damage she caused, and she would not be able to always come back and say how I hurt her by telling what happened.
Just a thought that might benefit some of your audience. Thank you.
P.S. I should add that the counselor we are seeing feels that my telling people was me wanting to punish her, which is somehow related to a lot of bullying I experienced as a kid. I don’t doubt that is PART of it, I just wish I had not told so that we could focus instead on why this happened and why she continues to lie about what actually happened.
Chumped and Talked
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Dear Chumped and Talked,
Her cheating and your telling are not equivalent.
This isn’t about the “moral high ground” — this is about her leading a double life, endangering your health and children’s intact family life to go on fuck-fest holidays with Mr. Sparkledick. She betrayed you. She abused you. And she’s not one bit sorry because she’s still lying to you.
Your counselor is an idiot.
I’m sorry you chose an idiot. I once chose a mechanic to fix my brakes and you know what? I drove to work and my brakes failed. Did I keep driving a car with faulty brakes? No. I got a new mechanic. Get a new counselor.
If your counselor is upset at being fired, tell him I have a theory. I think it’s part of what makes him such a compassionless jerk and ass-weasel-cheater apologist is because he was a bully as a kid. #heyjustatheory
Back you you, Chumped. You HURT her by telling some people what HAPPENED? You discovered her affair and she continued it with the excuse of his frail, chump wife?
You’re suffering from the common cheater mindfuck of “It’s not what I did, it’s your reaction to it.” The problem is not that she cheated, lied, blameshifts, spent marital resources on holidays and “helping” Sparkledick’s family — no, the problem is you being upset and telling people.
BULLSHIT.
If it’s not so terrible to do it, it’s not so terrible to talk about it.
I just wish I had not told so that we could focus instead on why this happened
It happened because she wanted it to happen. There are no depths to plumb here. She did it because she felt entitled to. And she feels entitled to continue. She did the cost-benefit analysis of what she wants versus your pain and she chooses herself every time.
and why she continues to lie about what actually happened.
More entitlement, Chumped. Also, she lies for the very simple reason that YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH.
You think you’re having a fight over the Moral High Ground when really you’re having a fight over narrative. Cheaters hate when chumps truth tell. It fucks with cheaters’ impression management of themselves as Splendid People. Behind your back, she’s justifying her affair. She’s certainly justifying it to Mr. Sparkledick. When you’re her chump, she’s got the floor. But when you’re uppity and tell people your wife is cheating on you?
When you told about your wife’s affair, you made it a lot harder for her to win the I’m The Real Victim Here narrative.
And you made it harder for her to continue her affair. #sparkledickcantcomeouttoplay
But it doesn’t matter, Chumped, because she already won. You’re still there trying to reconcile. And that my friend, in the face of her utter lack of remorse and continued blameshifting, is all the argument she needs — YOU. Being there. Stating with your presence that what she did was not so bad that you won’t take the rap and try harder.
In my opinion, you have no marriage to save. Heck, I don’t even think you have genuine imitation Naugahyde remorse. You’ve got outright contempt. There’s nothing to work with here. No humility or transparency whatsoever.
Oh sure, you can “reconcile,” if the terms are shut up and eat from the shit sandwich buffet. How much easier for her — a life of no consequences and continued cake. How much harder it would be if she had to win over everyone’s opinion, not just yours. She’d have to be accountable and humble. She couldn’t have the upper hand. She’d have to wear the shame and do the hard work.
I know! I’ve got a better idea!
Why don’t YOU be the bad guy!
She’s squealing over some small consequences — a few friends and family in the know. So you think you must be a Bad Person for allowing the natural consequences of her actions to happen — i.e., you reached out to people, you were naturally hurt and angry and wanted her to stop cheating.
That isn’t revenge. Revenge would be sending her sex videos to her boss. Or clubbing the other man with a baseball bat. Or shredding his tires. Heck, revenge (or restorative justice) would be totaling the costs of her affair vacations and buying yourself a new truck.
You didn’t do those things, Chumped. You told people she cheated. I’m sorry she doesn’t like it. I’m sorry her upset distresses you. But you’re not the bad person here. SHE is for cheating on you.
You have a basic disagreement about that fact. If she can’t take responsibility for destroying this marriage with her entitlement — expect more entitlement.
Or you could just abandon the battle of the Moral High Ground Alamo and come over here to the peaceful plains of New Beginnings. Meh is really nice this time of year. Come visit.
Why not get divorced rather than cheat? My guess is the old frail wife holds the purse strings. They are playing the long game and you let the cat out of the bag. No one is protecting this woman. She should know the truth.
There is nothing I can say about my cheater ex that is 5% as destructive and punishing as her cheating was to me, our sons, and my extended family. NOTHING. Not that she cheats on her taxes, not that she steals prescription meds from Alzheimer’s patients, not that she drowns kittens for shits and giggles. And those not-as-hurtful statements happen to be untrue. Telling THE TRUTH about a cheater? That isn’t punishment at all, only telling the story of my life.
We don’t protect domestic batterers from the consequences of their actions, and we shouldn’t be bullied into doing it with serial cheaters, either.
Nomar, I am sure you didn’t mean to be dismissive of victims of domestic batterers, but we DO protect domestic batterers from the consequences of their actions. Perhaps not to the extent that we protect serial cheaters, but the bias is still there. Women who (and it IS primarily women) who have experienced domestic violence still hesitate to call the police because we don’t know if we’ll be believed, because often the police view it as “a family matter” and just TALK to the batterer, and because even if they do make an arrest we know the guy will be out of jail and back home even MORE angry and MORE violent as soon as he can talk someone — his mother, a schmoopie, a buddy — into bailing him out. And yes, mothers, buddies and sometimes even schmoopies still attempt to protect the abuser by spreading lies about the victim, calling the victim a liar, blaming the victim for “provoking the attack” or other means. Sometimes even the victim’s own family and “friends” partake in this bullying of the victim.
Word Nomar!
Agreed on most of this, Nomar, except it seems to me that we do protect perpetrators of physical IPV from consequences, as yesterday’s letter and my own experiences with a physically abusive, cheating Nice Guy demonstrate. In the news, politicians, athletes and celebrities seem to get away with a great deal when it comes to abuse — infidelity-related or more clear cut, “accepted” physical and sexual abuse. Everyone is shocked at first, but then they feel sorry for the abuser, then quickly forget because it’s more comfortable and convenient. Before you know it, they’re on a comeback tour. I felt sick when I saw Kevin Hart’s most recent self-promotion, to name one.
There are a lot of stigmas surrounding chumps of all genders, as Sarah and Tracy pointed out at n their podcast. There are also a lot of stereotypes and misconceptions around being the victim of IPV. I feel less comfortable sharing that part of my story than I do the cheating, though neither were my fault.
We’re not supposed to protect domestic batterers, rapists, violent stalkers or sexual harassers yet the latter are frequently able to organize flying monkey squads with their false narratives. The message from perps and their defenders is exactly the same: “The problem is not the problem. Talking about the problem is the problem (or prosecuting/suing the problem is the problem).” I’ve heard of and seen this happen so often and it becomes plain that the dynamics of violent perpetrator blameshifting, cover-upping, narrative coups, triangulated smear campaigns and everything else are so identical to FW blameshifting, cover-upping, narrative coups and triangulated smear campaigns that FWs and their supporters firmly end up categorizing themselves under the broader criminal heading.
Thank you, Hell of a Chump. I am saddened, angered and quite possibly triggered whenever I encounter someone saying that “we don’t protect domestic batterers from the consequences of their actions. It is very clear to me that we DO protect domestic batterers from the consequences of their actions.
We shouldn’t protect them but– oops– reality. Some time back, various police depts across the country decided not to convict batterers anymore– just give fines and remand therapy for the poor sad sausages. The policy went against statistics which has recidivism at 98.5% but only with both jail time and therapy (worse without either). And from my personal experience with a workplace stalker, people came out of the woodwork to support the psycho I prosecuted, even people who never previously liked the guy. WTH. I heard things like “Jail won’t help him.” Then two douchy coworkers came up behind me and snickered loudly about pouring red ink on me because, apparently, I liked to “frame innocent guys.” I guess that was supposed to represent “faking” my injuries? Fortunately, police actually did their jobs (rare event thanks to my dear friend who “speaks cop”) and I had allies at work. We managed to outsmart the pro-psycho faction who tried to use the scandal to unseat me. We got the lot of them fired but what a horrible disaster the whole thing was. The trauma from dealing with apologists and traitors was worse than the actual assault and it’s the thing that lingers. I ended up with a lifelong bone to pick with those kinds of cowards and collaborators.
One silver lining to all this is that one of the workplace whistleblowers who tracked me down and gave me a heads up about FW’s affair turned out to be mostly motivated by moral rage because the AP had thrown a few female coworkers who reported harassment under the bus. I actually didn’t mind that this “Deep Throat” wasn’t solely motivated by empathy for chumpy me. I related and we were able to bond a bit over ire towards abuse apologists. I may even have been able to help someone sort out their feelings and “political perspective” over bystander betrayal because I’d already been chewing on those issues for years. It felt like kismet and like something positive and meaningful could come out of a situation that otherwise seemed ugly and meaningless.
“Telling THE TRUTH about a cheater? That isn’t punishment at all, only telling the story of my life.”
Yes!! A thousand times yes!
C&T,
That is some major league DAVRO/Deflection shit right there. My advice would be ditch both your wife AND your counsellor; it sounds like they are perfect for one-another …. you, not so much.
CN have your back and you’ve got this. My advice would be to bear in mind that when someone who clearly doesn’t hold the moral high ground says that you’ve lost the moral high ground because you had the audacity to impose some consequences or seek the support that you need, that they are full of shit and really need to be told to “go fuck themselves.”
LFTT
“Telling” seems to be the theme this week.
I’m curious what others think about the relative risks/benefits of contacting the AP’s family, the FW’s family, Switzerland friends, neighbors, etc. Is who we tell significant to our healing?
My take is whoever you know in your private life has some sort of agenda and you don’t control to whom they speak.
Consequently I invited myself to my cousin’s for the weekend to discuss my divorce. Two reasons; she is the only other person in my family who is divorced and talking to my sister potentially would have meant my niece and nephew knowing more about my divorce than my sons.
I also got a lot out of my system by talking at a counsellor, who occasionally managed to insert an insight into my outpourings.
“I also got a lot out of my system by talking at a counsellor, who occasionally managed to insert an insight into my outpourings.”
Ha! Love this.
IcanseeTuesday,
For me, it’s healing to talk and to write. I appreciate the support people give me, the understanding nod that yes, what you experienced is abusive, and he really does suck. It’s one of the reasons I keep coming back to this site.
After years of abuse and being kept in the dark about what the hell was going on in my own life, I NEED to lift the shades and throw open the windows to shine a disinfecting light on FW’s secrets. It’s empowering to blast open the door to the secret sexual basement, to share the truth about FW. Getting my version of events out there helps me control my own narrative. FW can’t control everything anymore.
I’m no saint, by any means, but he abused and betrayed me. That’s not ok. Had he been unhappy in our marriage, he should have had that hard conversation with me, and we could have decided to either work on our marriage OR go our separate ways so that he (and/or I) could date other people. That’s the proper order of things. That’s how people of good character handle situations like this.
“After years of abuse and being kept in the dark about what the hell was going on in my own life, I NEED to lift the shades and throw open the windows to shine a disinfecting light oFW’s secrets. It’s empowering to blast open the door to the secret sexual basement, to share the truth about FW. Getting my version of events out there helps me control my own narrative. FW can’t control everything anymore.”
THIS!!!
I think it is significant. Telling the AP’s spouse is about protecting another chump, which does help you to feel better, because you’ve done something that is morally right and pro-social. Telling family and friends is a way of reaching out for support.
Not knowing gives cheaters an advantage. Telling can even the playing field. More often than not cheaters risk our health and spend marital money. We make life decisions we wouldn’t make had we known. I was being conned into buying a home weeks before the discard.
The way to protect the frail wife is to let her know so she base her decisions on the truth.
So much this. I gave the AP 2 weeks to tell her husband and that I would contact him to make sure he knew and to answer any questions I might have. It was nice to correspond with him actually. They were trying to keep it together for kids (and different culture) so he said he had no one to talk to. No one to relate. Then left the door open for the occasional contact when my ex and his wife might be at the same professional conference (they are colleagues). Mostly I didn’t want the AP to show up locally unannounced.
I did ZERO reputation management for my ex-hole and I don’t regret it.
Doing me – I was also conned into buying a house. It was a half mile from his massage parlor whore. He convinced me to remove $100K from my retirement account for renovations as well. It was supposed to be “our” dream house and/or a great investment property. D-Day was 3 months after we moved into “our” beautifully renovated house. When I asked him how he could have done that to me after 35 years of marriage, he said “I know it was stupid, but I didn’t think you’d ever find out.”
I listed the house and got 3 full price offers the first week it was on the market.
Today, two years later, I’m living in a much smaller, less expensive house. It’s ALL MINE. Eat shit, FW!
Chumps should tell everyone asap. I thought I’d take the high road and kept everything to myself.
Meanwhile I found out cheater had been telling everyone his version of events.. I wasn’t any of the things he claimed. I thought people knew better than to believe his outrageous lies about me.
Cheaters image management and exit was carefully planned. He portrayed himself as the victim.
Months before Day he had been confiding with family, neighbors, anyone who would listen including the custodian at our sons elementary school. Cheater claimed to be concerned for. my mental well being. I was difficult to get along with, never happy, a lazy alcoholic, refused counseling. . Dabbing tears from his eyes, he said he didn’t know how much more he could take.
All these people came to his defense. well, you two weren’t getting along, what was he supposed to do?
That’s disgusting of them, and says a lot about their low morals and lack of good character!
What was he supposed to do? Well, NOT betray you and stab you in the back for a start!!!
Bloody Hell!
What a Manipulative prick.
My ex did this with his family after he stated to me the “troubles” I’m not Happy”
A month later we traveled to his family’s for Thanksgiving. His mother stated she was surprised that we both came as “we weren’t getting along”. He created that story. I was still in the dark – didn’t know at that time that he had started the affair with his just married coworker.
They pave their own way to victimhood, very manipulative.
I learned after the divorce that he had done the same thing in his first marriage.
UGH, what a user.
Ahhh, same. He told everyone that would listen that I was bipolar, mentally and physically abusive and an alcoholic. Now that its been 3 years since he moved out….hmmm, making more than I ever have, have a job I enjoy for the most part and I have peace. The circle prior to him leaving left with him and the friendships I have now are people who know me AM (after marriage). Dug myself out of a 14k credit card debt, he was expensive to keep happy, how could I have managed all that if I had all of the issues he claimed when he left? Just crazy how they absolutely have to look good to justify their need for instant gratification. And yes I got the house too, why should I let him have it when he was the one that screwed everything up? Thank God I stood up for myself there, it took two years after DDay and he finally got out for good.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. These charming, con artist serial cheaters are seasoned and remorseless liars and have years on chumps, and Perel mentality has a hold on pop culture. Bottom line, the sooner you get out, the better. That’s the only thing you control, shit sandwich though it is. I think chumps should tell whoever they want (as long as it’s safe and wise to do so), but cheaters will lie and manipulate to eat cake and avoid consequences, no matter which road we take. Telling rarely went how I hoped, but the people who truly know and love me, and who have good values and integrity, believed and supported me. If you find yourself explaining basic decency to an adult…? Ask yourself: to what end?
Same. I was a very private person. He was telling everyone all kinds of made up things about me, to the point where when I finally asked for help I got scoffs and eye rolls because people already “knew” how difficult I was.
It took my lawyer telling me directly that staying silent gets women killed. I needed to tell everyone what was going on to protect myself. That was very hard for me.
I had a therapist tell me, early on in my separation, that I needed to divorce FW because he (the therapist, an ex-cop) didn’t want to see me on the front page of the newspaper. I had described an episode where FW had been physically violent.
I wasn’t ready to hear it at that point, but now looking back I’m so glad I got out alive. I always thought FW would never hurt me like that, and I was very wrong. I stayed away from him later on in the divorce process and I’m glad I did, because he was getting desperate. In a way, I’m glad he ended up harming himself rather than anyone else (I was minimal contact, and had OW gotten the hell out of there too).
KatiePig, you were very lucky to have a lawyer who told. you directly that staying silent gets women killed. I didn’t know that, no one told me, and it almost ended in my demise. One deliberately strangled me nearly to death and the other was plotting “accidents” for me. Potentially fatal “accidents.”
I told everyone I knew about the first abuser, and lost all but two friends and most of my extended family who chose the abuser over me. The second time, I was much more judicious about who I told. I did NOT reach out to the other woman, and while numerous people have told me I needed to warn her, every one of those people also said, “She didn’t owe you anything. SHE wasn’t married to you.” I sometimes wish I had told the police, his family and all of the people in the transient community we shared at that time, but I don’t regret getting the hell out and as far away as possible before he knew I was gone.
Because this kind of DARVO routine and triangulation is par for the course with abusers and because it an have tragic effects. I often think there should be charitable or public funding for private investigators to help victims of domestic abuse dig up dirt and turn the tables on big mouth abusers. There would have to be a stringent vetting process to allot funds though since abusers are so talented at playing victim to their own victims.
I’m sorry You went through that and I’m so glad you got out and you’re still here.
I got extremely lucky with my lawyer. He was the first one I called I actually hung up as soon as he answered the phone. He called me back immediately and I was sobbing hysterically when I answered the phone. He calmed me down and gave me a list of things to get done and he wanted me to call the police but I didn’t because I was afraid that would make me ex angry and make it worse.
That’s when he told me to pack a bag, like a weekend bag, and have it in my car so I could flee if necessary. And to call all my friends and family and tell them about the threats. And to do this as soon as I got off the phone with him. That was number one on the list. I was very lucky to find him. That’s why I tell everyone to just keep calling lawyers until you find one who wants to help you. They are out there. That call was totally free and it saved me.
Sometimes I wish I had called the police too but I’m here and safe so I can’t regret much. We made it.
“What was he supposed to do?” Get a divorce if things were that bad. Fuck somebody else and wait for you to find out doesn’t seem to be the correct solution, y’know?
This right here! If they are “bad enough” to cheat on, they are bad enough to divorce. But the chumps are not that bad- they provide value to the cheater and so the cheater wants both the chump and the side piece. This is one point I feel really needs to be emphasized to those “what was he supposed to do ” people.
This is right out of that cheaters’ handbook, The Script.
I read that book years before Dday, but it stuck with me and the familiar behaviour is what alerted me to what was actually going on.
Same. I wish I had told my story to anyone and everyone, especially our social circle and AP’s family. Turns out FW had been sowing the seeds (about me being cold, mercenary, crazy, mentally disturbed, you name it), probably for YEARS, so that when he finally went public with AP, everyone was SO HAPPY FOR HIM and my entire social circle cut me out. They ALL knew, and not one single person called or wrote to ask if I was okay, or to ask my side of the story, or to offer any kind of support. They welcomed AP with open arms. They were giving gifts to “the two of them” and inviting them to things as a couple. We hadn’t even filed for divorce yet. I cut ties with every last person (because obviously they were never MY friends), and even now several years later (and FW dead) I feel sometimes like sending a mass message to all of them telling them what I think of them and what really happened. But it’s pointless, so I don’t. I was desperately trying to “save” my marriage and I thought at the time that if I told what he did and how he treated me, it would make a reconcilliation more difficult. But our wreckoncilliation failed spectacularly, and was a huge mistake anyway. So I wish I’d shouted from the rooftops about what he did.
My FW is dead also. He’s been dead about 3 months and I found out about 5 days after he died that he had hundreds of affairs with men and women. I knew him for 44 years, 36 married, but I never had a clue he was unfaithful. I STILL want to TELL EVERYONE. I wish I could post it on his Facebook wall, or his linkedin page, but honestly even the smallest amount of description puts it into a pornographic category. Anyone who talks about him wants to wax eloquently about what a great guy he was, so charming, so smart, he walked on water, blah, blah, blah. Its nauseating and it just makes me want to tell everyone the truth about him. He was a sadistic monster. He had BDSM affairs with both men and women, many of whom he pursued and groomed into a BDSM lifestyle. The affairs were over a period of decades, but I have descriptive emails and graphic pictures of him and his SUBS in the most horrific sexual acts. The stuff of nightmares. I still want to tell everyone who knew him.
I never got details about the smear campaign, but Im sure there was one. What I realized YEAR after was the he was trying to get me to react in a crazy manner to support some narrative so he did crazy shit to incite a normal response which to others would have seemed crazy.
He told me that he was going to commit a significant act of public violence…mass shutting of some sort (he referenced the Michael Douglas character in “Falling Down”). Once he he even said “I warned you and if you do nothing, then you will be culpable. He only said crazy shit verbally so there was no trail (never a note, email or text). I now think he was trying to get me to call the police and tell them that he was threatening a mass event but he would have met them with charm, respectability nary an outward sign that he was capable of such a thing. Im sure he would have followed it up with “I had to divorce her, she called the cops on me”
Yes, Unicorn, I experienced this too. Provocation that was being used to feel the narrative. The neighbours told me he had been telling them all kinds of made-up stuff about me and the situation at home. To justify his behaviour and vilify me. And because we all like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and can’t imagine a good enough reason why someone would act in such a creepy and frankly evil manner, they believed him. They only saw the behavioural reactions at the tip of the iceburg, not the underlying reasoning and motivation from him. They reverse engineer the whole situation so that your reactions to it appear to be the engine that’s driving their behaviour, not the result of their campaign to lead you to that point.
You know a marriage has become a war zone when you start wondering about your state’s audio recording laws– whether it’s legal to record someone without consent.
It’s not legal where I live, and I really wish it had been. I’d have loved to play some of his phone conversations to other people and see their reaction. I was living with my mom for awhile, and one time when FW called, I put him (without his knowing) on speaker. My mom said his voice and words made her blood run cold. He had a point past rage where his voice would go super calm, soft, and absolutely chillingly cold. I knew in that moment, listening to him tell me how I had ruined his life (“set fire to it” according to him, because I didn’t financially support his dreams), that he could have killed me and not felt bad about it because I was no longer human to him. I was simply The Enemy. I was VERY glad he was at the other end of a phone call and not near me. But it wasn’t the first time he’d used that voice with me (he never did it to anyone else – people had NO IDEA how scary he could be since he was Utterly Charming in social situations).
🤣👏🏻📼🎤
I’m so sorry. I went through this too. One of the few “friends” I did get to speak to actually told me “well he needs to be happy too.” right in the same conversation where I was trying to convince her he was fucking children her daughter’s age and I was afraid he’d go even younger. It was mind blowing. I even asked her, “why does everyone hate me so much? Did I do something?”
And she just kind of scoffed and told me that nobody hates me and it’s not about me. “Not everything is about you.”
Such a mindfuck. I don’t know what he said about me but he must have laid it on thick. They definitely hated me.
KatiePig, I feel this. I’ve lost many, many friends as well. For years I’ve struggled with “what’s so wrong with me?” Even before dday. I never did get an answer (maybe bc there wasn’t something actually wrong with me…). But ex-husband and ex-friend had an affair, and my community ghosted me. So that spear was driven even deeper. “Why does everyone hate me so much? did I do something?” I get it. It’s a treacherous feeling.
“Assassination” is the root word in “character assassination.” Back in days of yore you could have legally challenged the fucker to a duel to the death for it.
My God, that was a brutal and heinous smear campaign. Lately I keep thinking about how the concept of “Dickensian ruin” should be updated for modern times in order to properly measure the sheer evil of abusers’ smear campaigns. The fact that you weren’t thoroughly ruined wasn’t for lack of trying on your FW’s part. I think the smear alone should be categorized as DV.
A friend and I were recently discussing the case of Larry Ray and the Sarah Lawrence college cult (https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/02/larry-ray-sarah-lawrence-sex-cult), specifically how easy it would be to blame the victims of it for getting sucked in because Ray’s tactics seemed so creepy and blatant. But then we realized that, before Ray set himself up as a sicko guru, he went around individually prying personal intel and secrets out of student “draftees.” In other words, he turned himself into a bomb who could blow up all their lives and, probably to very young, naive college kids, just the hint of this possibility gave Ray immediate power.
Though it wasn’t clear from coverage of the case, I imagine that Ray did this in the same way that all abusers do it: not just by the fact that he collected personal “dirt” on these students but he likely also demonstrated and hinted at a capacity to distort these personal details further– in other words, lie, exaggerate and fabricate and– in case this intel wasn’t already catastrophically damaging– turn this intel into life-and-reputation-ruining, drive-people-over-the-edge-to-suicide type of smears. From there he got the power to psychologically arm twist these students into engaging in sexual behaviors that gave him even more dirt on them. I’ve heard that Scientology does the same thing by having new recruits do these “therapy” sessions in which they’re told to repeat all their darkest personal secrets into an audiorecorder. Then if later they try to escape, those dark secrets are publicly released. This is why a journalist who left the cult began his Vanity Fair expose with a confession of all his worst personal deeds– because all that stuff was going to be unleashed against him anyway.
I don’t know if the cult also embellishes those disclosures but domestic abusers do. They take this power by intimate access to victims’ lives. The thing is, I don’t think most people measure the danger or aggression of this kind of smear properly because there seems to be a big gap between assumptions and reality regarding the existence of “safety nets” in first world societies. The times we live in are more “Dickensian” than most acknowledge. When people are comfortable and secure, they like to assure themselves their societies have safety nets like justice, social norms of decency and effective programs that will kick in and prevent total ruin like losing their careers and professional reputations, losing all social supports, losing custody of their children or ending up struggling in dire poverty with children, eating scraps and sleeping in cars, etc. But the latter happens to people at times. It could even lead to death. Not that it will but, given some well placed lies, it can and just the potentiality is like a specter of doom but the crazy making part of it for the target is that it’s one that many don’t acknowledge.
I think that, in the moments when domestic abusers are engaging in social smears against victims or threatening to do so as a terror tactic, the comforting hologram of “nets” begins to waver and reality suddenly starts bleeding through the common illusions about safety for many victims. They look down and what they thought was a net is a tattered spider web over a jagged pit. Comfortable bystanders with their comfortable illusions might not see it but that reality is like a loaded gun being waved in victims’ faces. Abusers can count on this instilling terror the same as threatening violence, yet no one on the scene– not even victims in some cases– is really able to identify the direness of the threat because of the common illusion of “safety nets,” economic and social mobility, etc. Without being able to identify the nature of the threat, victims may end up confused about their own anxiety and further captor bonded to abusers in a subconscious attempt to appeal for mercy.
Anyway, it’s something to think about when survivors hesitate to escape and end up “huffing hopium.” Is the “hope” being huffed just about not “losing love/intact family” or is it colored by fears– ones systematically being incited by threats of “social ruin” by abusers– of losing everything and being pushed into the jagged pit?
The Real Crime Profile podcast covered this case and I loved it. Two of the three hosts are former FBI/MI6. The woman from MI6 is also an expert in coercive control who helped craft the laws in the UK for stalking and CC. Their perspective is always so valuable when they cover these cases and they look at things like DARVO, DV, police/leo response. They are the only truly victim-centered real crime podcast I’ve ever listened to and that’s why they are the only one I still listen to.
Oops, should clarify to say that I loved it because of how they handled it. They show a lot of compassion toward the victims of this ‘guru’ and are honest about where law enforcement fell down on the job.
When a chump’s significant other is taking f-fest vacations with the affair person, a BIG statement has been made. They do not value, do not care about, etc about the Chump. If chump stays they will not get over this and “this” will continue probably forever or with another affair person, In this case when the frail wife dies, that may be the end of chump’s marriage. People pretend in counseling. They may be continuing their usual vacations, etc. with affair person all while the chump things we’re working on our marriage. Noone should waste another minute with this kind of partner.
“ People pretend in counseling. They may be continuing their usual vacations, etc. with affair person all while the chump things we’re working on our marriage.”
Exactly. How many of us were conned into attending, even paying for, counseling with cheaters who were still chumping us? I was floored by the dishonesty of this when I found my ex was doing the same… but of course he was! I told him I wanted nothing to do with him if he still had, or even wanted, anything to do with another woman (before I knew it was other women). “You’re the only one, b&r. I don’t even know where ‘she’ is right now.” (He also privately emailed the counselor to say he didn’t think it was helpful that I thought of it as “cheating.”) Then he’d drive home and go fuck shmoopie that very night. I’m sure he loved putting me in that pathetic position. Counseling felt like a huge shit sandwich from the start, but I was desperate and naive and in shock. Had I known he was secretly carrying on, and that I only knew the tip of the iceberg, I really want to believe I would’ve ended it then and there.
I’m so sorry to hear that. I hope you’re well passed it and have reached meh. What a complete and total dick.
“The Moral High Ground Alamo”. Lol! Great combo of snark and history!
Wow. That’s a Grade A shitsandwich this chump has on his plate! I suggest flushing it, with counselor, and walking away with the truth. I hope this chump changed paths.
Lot of counselors out there like that. I also tried couple’s therapy with my ex-wife after her affairs (plural) came to light and the vast majority of the time was spent discussing my shortcomings that “drove” my ex to cheat. It was awful and felt like more abuse.
Be very careful and discerning out there about the therapist you choose. They can do even more damage on top of the abuse you’ve already received.
I was fortunate to have a therapist in reconciliation counseling who would not let XW off the hook for her choices. Our sessions did not go very far towards reconciliation, but it set me up for a clean break from the lying liar.
“Your wife has a lot of problems and you can’t fix them.”
Get TF out. You deserve better. Projection, deflection, entitlement. Bye.
Wasting time and money on y counseling? There’s nothing to work with. Lawyer up. Get your own bank account. Buy that new truck. Tell the ‘old frail wife’ whose probably not old or frail but a badass woman who’s being Chumped. And get TF out of there. Good luck. We’re here with you.
I sure hope ‘Chumped and Talked’ dumped his wife and found meh. Geez! To think that I was also in his shoes when I told people. And then I continued to allow him to mind-fuck me for several years because it was me that continuously thought, “Oh, if I had not told anyone, my marriage might still have had a chance. But I blew it, and now I’m divorced, and he’ll be happily married to her!” What a total mind-fuck life I lived because of that loser!!! He was tall, handsome, dynamic and I was told continuously for 30 years how fortunate I was to have a husband like him. I was mind-fucked by him and all the people that believed the facade. No wonder I was messed up. Thank goodness I finally had enough shit sandwiches. I almost decided to cash out my existence because I felt valueless there at the end. It took a good 4 years to realize that I my value did not depend on someone’s ability to recognize it. I have a feeling that ‘Chumped and Talked’ put all of his value on his fuckwit’s ability to recognize it. I sure hope he got out and lived his life fuckwit free.
“…handsome, dynamic and I was told continuously for 30 years how fortunate I was to have a husband like him.” SAME. It was infuriating. For decades I heard what a “good guy” my ex was, and how lucky I was to have him. So painful.
Bad things I do don’t force you to do bad things to me or anyone else.
(There are extreme exceptions — for example, we mostly think physically harming others is bad, but if I run at you with a sharp knife intending to harm you, you might have to harm me to protect yourself. But we aren’t talking about such edge cases here.)
There’s nothing a chump does that specifically compels a liar to lie, a cheater to cheat. CL always talks about agency. If you’re unhappy, unfulfilled, unable to express yourself freely within a relationship, you always have the option of communicating, and you always have the option of leaving. Cheating isn’t ever the only feasible option.
If a person chooses to cheat, it isn’t because of the chump, no matter how many times they parrot that argument. It simply isn’t true. Unless you were holding a gun and barking commands, compelling them under duress in real time, you didn’t make them cheat, or lie, or sneak. The cheater did that all on their own.
We chumps have GOT to stop seeing the choice to cheat as something we might have deserved.
It’s possible the relationship should have ended before the cheating, and it’s probable that we played a part in its demise. It truly does take two to tango. And nobody’s perfect. So, yeah, we most likely did some shitty things.
If the harm the cheater had caused with their lies was to commit fraud and steal a million dollars in marital assets, or stab us in the chest while we slept, we wouldn’t have to ponder fault. It would be obvious to us that the cheater’s bad acts were intolerable.
Cheating is a bomb to the heart and soul, but it can also physically harm or even murder you. There are so many diseases a person can contract via intimate contact that can eventually result in cancer, dementia, infertility, and other long term cardiopulmonary, neurological, or other impacts (long COVID being just one.)
Telling people about the cheating causes some stress. That’s real, but it’s truthful, and the impact is hurt feelings.
Cheating causes stress, too, and also can murder you.
A cheater who thought cheating was a terrible thing to do to you wouldn’t need to redirect blame. That person would be committed to change and rebuilding trust at all costs and wouldn’t cast any blame on you for their bad choices.
That is one RARE unicorn — and you’d have to see it persist over many years to know it was sincere, and you’d never truly stop watching for the next time, because it was ok in that person’s mind that one time, so what’s to say it could never happen again?
Most counselors get into counseling because they once needed a lot of counseling and ended up deciding it is a good profession and they want to help others the same way. Sometimes they can’t see the forest because of their own trees. They’re not magically wise. They’re people. If you’re seeing one who is no longer helping you, it’s ok to change. Your wallet, your rules.
Amiisfree,
Just a small insert on my part. Cheating on a dedicated partner should never be considered a feasible option, by anyone. We all know how utterly fucking awful an act it is to do to a loving partner (no pun intended).
Wishing you peace and meh.😊
Wait what? Ummmmm, no sir!!! I told anyone that would hear. Why? Because I was hurt, humiliated and when someone betrays you they don’t get to decide nor judge how they you handle that inflicted pain. My XH was a martyr so he took it and felt he deserved my pain….but even then I am sure that it helped justify to him in his own head he was right to o leave. It doesn’t matter. You marry someone and build a life with them. You don’t treat them like this. Run!!! Run from her and that therapist!
Keeping silent can be the worst thing you can do.
Cheater used my shock at his affair, and subsequent shock and concussion from his physical assault when I discovered evidence of financial abuse, to buy time to lie. I made two huge mistakes: having my kiddo call for help from friends while I was lying on the ground, instead of having him call 911 as he wanted, and listening to the two “Switzerland” friends who showed up to “help” and instead convinced me NOT to call police, stating that I’d be arrested, too. My concern at the time was more that he must be having a stroke or brain tumor, (I know, I know) and needed to be free to get medical care. I knew I’d been knocked down but didn’t realize til much later, when kiddo told me, that that I’d actually been knocked out and unconscious. He’s still angry that I stopped him from calling police. I don’t beat myself up about it because I was concussed, and try to stop him from blaming himself–he was a little kid and I told him to obey me. But as he pointed out, our friends had no such excuse, and by the time I eventually reported to police, it became “he said, she said,” and didn’t go anywhere. The entire divorce would have been much different if I’d called them at the start.
The same is true for friendships. I suspect the two friends who came already knew whatever story he’d been spinning because her parting advice was to put my energy into cleaning the house, put it up for sale and downsize to a condo. They left me with bruises and a bleeding head wound, and with a small kiddo, too stunned to stand up, while cheater swanned off to their home to be coddled for a few weeks until he found a place of his own. I later saw one of his checks listing THEIR address, and from the number, well into the three digits, it looked like he’d been sending his banking info to their home for quite a while.
He used my initial shock and withdrawal over the next four months to go to Sunday services and systematically invite almost everyone out to lunch–something we’d never done before–to advise them I was dangerous and to stay away for their own safety. He spun a tale about how I’d been going into violent rages, was waving a gun around, and had accused him of having an affair when I learned he was giving financial advice to an online colleague. People knew I had a prior brain injury, and he attributed my supposed rages to deterioration. He told the same story to all our mutual friends, so by the time I began reaching out, they were afraid to reach back.
Important point: He persuaded me not to tell anyone what he’d done by telling me he needed them to be references so he could get a new job (he’d taken early retirement at 50) and repay the money he’d stolen. I suspect lots of cheaters come up with stories to convince chump to maintain their secret– to protect their jobs, their kids, their family status, whatever. It comes down to protecting THEMSELVES.
Chumped and Talked wrote,” I LOST the moral upper hand when I told too many people about it, including a couple of her friends and some of her family members.” Reaching out for help after someone deliberately capsizes your life is a survival reaction, not a moral failing. Maybe she has friends of her own, but isn’t “her” family now your family, too? If you were harmed by anyone else–a stranger, a neighbor, a coworker–would you be morally obligated to keep the injury a secret? Heck no, so why should you have to protect her by hiding her repeated harm to you? It’s just another form of abuse and control.
I concur with above advice to ditch the therapist and her. The moral high ground is showing that you don’t accept infidelity or lying.
“They left me with bruises and a bleeding head wound, and with a small kiddo, too stunned to stand up, while cheater swanned off to their home to be coddled for a few weeks until he found a place of his own.”
🤬 They were complicit in his crime.
Oh god, your story is awful. I’m so sorry. I can empathize with some parts of it, though I was never so badly injured and my “friends” weren’t as blatant about siding with him (it was more of a gradual silence). I hope you and your son are doing better now.
Many in the helping/ counselling/ therapeutic community, know zero about trauma betrayal and can further do damage to you. It can be another shit sandwich.
I don’t know how you can begin to deal with someone like that. My ex extracted a promise that I would speak well of him. He was supposed to speak well of me.
Beyond common sense is how you do that with a husband who had fled the scene and left me with the chaos. But when I promised that, I was already learning that it was best to be plain about the facts (“He’s gone. I don’t know if he’s coming back.”) With my therapist, I told all because she had been seeing me for years to “stay well.” She also had been seeing him at times for years, but not in the months before we separated.
Turns out that my husband did a massive deep dive on our marriage to exonerate himself with his family. That was not exactly speaking well of me. They discussed every little bit of our marriage of several decades. Of course, I wasn’t present to explain or defend myself. I struggled with why he did that and why they listened until I got that I had always been an outsider, and their family system required circling the wagons around him, regardless of the circumstances.
By the time he initiated the divorce, I was in a good place and agreed. I can only imagine what he told his family about that. My husband whipped it up into a crazy mess that he probably blamed me and the attorneys for. Nope. It was him, but I didn’t feel that it was my responsibility to inform his family. I learned that in dealing with a manipulator, it is best to just let things fall as they may and walk away. So I did.
My ex insisted on a clause in the divorce degree that both of us were prohibited from talking about the domestic violence, unless necessary to police, doctors, etc. I agreed (because he was willing to give me sole custody of our son if I did).
Guess who was silent as the grave. Guess who spun his poor-me, that lying bitch story to all and sundry. By the time I figured it out, the damage was done. The trauma of telling people and not being believed has lasted a lot longer than anything Ex ever did.
It’s bad enough when the FW equates their betrayal with something not at all equivalent (examples: simply telling people the truth or buying the wrong brand of cereal 🙋🏻♀️), but when a therapist does it, that stings because FWs can USE that faulty logic as a justification for their own shitty behavior. And chumps end up believing that their reactions to the abuse are, indeed, as bad as the abuse itself. “We’re both morally compromised now!”
Therapists seem to have a playbook that involves looking for ways that both people contributed to whatever problem exists. Fair enough, but sometimes one person’s actions so outweigh the other’s, that this doesn’t work. Years ago, I’d joined my then-husband for a session with his individual therapist. Big mistake, by the way. The therapist made the tortured argument that when I’d suggested that FW and I curl up in front of the tv to watch a movie on our anniversary, I’d triggered in FW feelings of abandonment, which, in turn, justified his subsequent angry, unhinged, scary tantrum! He felt abandoned because he wanted to have sex instead. Ummm, ok. Well, why didn’t he simply state his wishes or start kissing me or whatever? The therapist doubled down in defense of her client. In her mind, I was equally to blame in the ruined anniversary evening. FW sat there like a cat in cream.
p.s. Later that day, I got a call from the therapist. She apologized to me. But I wonder if she ever conveyed to the FW her realization that she’d spouted false-equivalence BS.
So she blamed you and humiliated you in front of him by saying that you were abusive for cuddling and watching a movie but then she called you later to apologize where he wouldn’t hear it?
She was fucking him. That’s what that was.
Agree Katie
“Therapists seem to have a playbook that involves looking for ways that both people contributed to whatever problem exists.”
True. Most seem to follow the 50% rule, claiming that both parthers are equally responsible for any problems in a marriage. This is a dangerous myth that has been used to screw a lot of people over.
“The therapist made the tortured argument that when I’d suggested that FW and I curl up in front of the tv to watch a movie on our anniversary, I’d triggered in FW feelings of abandonment, which, in turn, justified his subsequent angry, unhinged, scary tantrum!”
I’m glad she apologized for that. It’s justifying abuse.
” Most seem to follow the 50% rule, claiming that both parthers are equally responsible for any problems in a marriage. This is a dangerous myth that has been used to screw a lot of people over.”
Yes, and not just in the cheating arena. Marriage is rarely 50/50, sometimes it is 70/30, 90/10 etc. That is called compromising. Sometimes you give more, some times they give more. But in the end both are working within the bounds of marriage. When lying and back stabbing enter in, it is all the the perp. Lying and back stabbing is not within the pare miters of a healthy and fair marriage.
You cannot be wrong for simply speaking the truth.
Ditch the counseling and use that money to pay a lawyer. It will be much better spent.
Been there.
I missed this the first time around, but since there are chumps in the same position as the OP, I’m going to answer this chump in their stead.
“I LOST the moral upper hand when I told too many people about it, including a couple of her friends and some of her family members.”
Nope. You told the truth. That is not immoral. She lied and cheated. That is immoral. The fact that it is shameful truth is her fault.
“Now we are in counseling and most of the time spent (even with a counselor I chose and trust) is about HOW I REACTED.”
That’s nuts. Fire the garbage therapist and divorce your wife. Why are you in counseling with a remorseless fuckwit who is making it about your reaction rather than her cheating?
“I should add that the counselor we are seeing feels that my telling people was me wanting to punish her, which is somehow related to a lot of bullying I experienced as a kid.”
You did it to punish her because she’s a scumbag who deserved it. There’s nothing wrong with punishing bad people for their horrid behavior, given you stay within the law and don’t keep on doing it for an extended period. That’s because you should be shed of the person, therefore you would feel no need to keep up the punishment.
If you perceive her cheating as bullying, you are right. Divorce the bully. Would you do us all a favor and tell your both the blameshifting fuckwit and the blameshifting therapist to go fuck themselves?
I wanted to add that telling the is not just a punishment for wrongdoing, it is also therapeutic fir the chump. I see no downside, at least not one that would matter to me.
Let’s be honest, though. Punishment is part of it, and so what if it is? Punishing people who hurt you, as long as it is within the law, is your right as a human being.
This issue of punishment used to trouble me. I bought into FW’s proclamation that I, Spinach, am “vindictive” and gleefully punishing him for his crime of simply “falling in love.” #soinnocent
I pointed out that what’s happening to him in aftermath of D-day is a consequence not a punishment.
“Consequence” implies agency, that something the FW DID caused something to happen to him (like his own adult kids deciding that, as a result of years of his emotional abuse, they no longer want a relationship of any kind with him).
“Punishment” implies victimhood, that the FW is the passive recipient of unfair treatment. FW likes to feel like the biggest victim in the room.
That said, and to OHFFS’s point, wanting our abusers to feel some pain makes us human. It’s only natural.
““Punishment” implies victimhood, that the FW is the passive recipient of unfair treatment.” <– Thank you for stating this! The fuckwit isn’t the victim at all, not like the chump or the children. Had the fuckwit not done the things that (s)he had done, there would not have been any victim-chump or victim-children.
Cheaters lie… and there are bad therapists. Two universal truths.
Perhaps finding a therapist JUST FOR YOU who is committed to your wellbeing and your truth and why as an adult you accept abusive behavior (that’s where that bullying you endured as a child fits in, in case you’re wondering)… and heal your old wounds and fix your picker for a cheater free future.
It is not ok that your wife cheated.
It is not ok that she continued to cheat after your discovery.
It is not ok that she lies/lied to you.
You deserve better.
Glad you found Chump Nation. I hope you come back to tell us about your journey to appreciating your own self worth!
I told. Immediately. First background: I’d been going through painful and risky fertility treatments and had more miscarriages than I could count. An ectopic pregnancy, that darned near killed me, was caused by chlamydia! I took all the medical bills and prescription costs and mailed copies of them to schmoopie, her daughter, parents, family, his coworkers who also knew her, his family, our friends—along with a letter explaining why and the details of his cheating I had to dig up myself because of dribble truth. It didn’t solve a thing, I kicked the FW out, many labeled me “bitter,” and I lightened my address book. Of course I was labeled everything in the book just because people like to slap on the false equivalency due to its ease and inherent discomfort.
I never understood -while still married- why my ex’s family started to treat me differently at some point…there was a definite coolness. I wasn’t sure if it was my imagination or not, so I only brought it up with my husband (who denied it). Well, I figured it out later when my ex-MIL excused her son leaving with OW “because of how badly you treated him”. Well if I hadn’t been so shocked, I would’ve laughed my ass off at that!! My supposed husband got his story of “his mean, non-attention giving wife” out there long before I ever even knew there was a story out there. There might be a time when you don’t announce to the neighbourhood something like a one-time small transgression (if a one-time thing even exists) accompanied by significant remorse…but an ongoing affair & an older/frail spouse also being at risk for STDs? Break out the bullhorn and tell one and all! Spouses can gaslight, but we can gaslight ourselves too by clinging to a broken-down narrative.
“…we can gaslight ourselves too by clinging to a broken-down narrative.” Yes.
I had this happen too. It wasn’t really coldness but more snarky comments. Like calling out my “c-section scar” (It wasn’t, I just have a stretch mark on my stomach from being pregnant and I dared to not be ashamed of it) at a barbecue pool party.
It’s funny now because that woman was one of his biggest supporters and when I was upset and asked him what the hell kind of woman and mother does that to another mother in front of a bunch of people he told me that she was socially retarded and constantly lost friends because she doesn’t know how to act and I should feel sorry for her. He actually convinced me she was basically simple as far as social etiquette and couldn’t help being rude. He even told me she was molested by a family member to excuse her behavior.
So, she told people he’s a great guy while he was going around calling her a social ruh-tard. LOL You can’t make this stuff up. Nobody would believe it.
What a nice guy, hey KatiePig?! I cringe whenever I hear a guy say he’s a nice guy. Likely isn’t. I got the sarcastic comments too but from my husband…. because he was boinking some OW is my guess.
Oh yeah, my ex is the epitome of the “nice guy” creep. He was posting shit like “never forget this man raped a girl!” on his facebook while he was literally going to a park at night to meet an 11 year old for sex. He’s such a feminist!
Ooooh!!! What a horrible man!
She’s a bully, plain and simple !
What a crock of shit.
I hate these fucking phonies……they can act like a piece of shit but nobody can know about it. Frankly a chump who buys into this mentality is still pick me dancing.
Agree. Also, by extension the flying monkey’s of these assholes, will look at a person who has lied, cheated and stolen from their spouse, and lied to many others to cover for their deeds, and it makes perfect sense to them to blame the faithful partner. Boggles the mind.
This is a re-run. I wish we knew whether Chumped and Talked wised up, got out of marital counseling and found an individual therapist who helped him unpack what this woman did to him.
I wonder why he trusted this therapist. That’s a picker with major malfunctioning. The first thing my therapist would have said was, “You have nothing to work with here. He/she has contempt for you. There’s no coming back from that.”
This sounds so familiar.
I was the bad guy because I told my family and friends about her cheating. She even threatened suicide because “You humiliated me!” Later when she committed violence in the home I got a restraining order that kicked her out and garnished her wages at the school district where she taught. She might have lost her teaching credential if I had pressed criminal charges. Instead being the least bit introspective about how she got there, it was all about how I was ruining her reputation.
Deep down they know they are in the wrong, but recognizing that causes too much cognizant dissonance. Spinning a false narrative about causality and blame is much less disturbing.
You know what still gives me satisfaction…, it’s the fact that I got and kept the house. Even though I contributed the majority of the money for the house, the fuckwit was pissed that I “GOT” the house (as though I didn’t deserve it and the judge awarded it to me wrongfully.) I had asked my son several years back, “Do you think it bothers your dad that I got the house?” He said, “Yeah. I know it does.” I wanted to pump my fist in the air and say ‘YES!’, but I behaved. I think you give fuckwits too much credit when you say, “Deep down they know they are wrong, but recognizing that causes too much cognizant dissonance.” I don’t think they’re that deep. They lie because it’s in their nature to lie, and getting caught in a lie is just part of life for them. Therefore, the action for getting caught in a lie (for them) is just to lie again. It’s a natural reflex and probably doesn’t have anything to do with the normal mental anguish that cheating is ‘bad’. So for your ex-fuckwit to have anguish over your ‘telling’ has nothing to do with the anguish that a normal person would have over his/her bad behavior. The only anguish she felt was repercussion-associated anguish. She isn’t deep enough to care about anything except what makes her good. It’s all about her.
“They lie because it’s in their nature to lie, and getting caught in a lie is just part of life for them.”
And they get pleasure out of manipulating and lying again to get away with the lie they were caught in. It is all part of honing their craft, and they take pride in their ability. I firmly believe that.
I think cheaters make a decision to lie, cognitive dissonance and reflexes make it seem like they dont have agency. The choose to lie and like to lie.
When we keep quiet our silence protects the cheater and them him/her a free field of action.
Cheaters don’t like honesty and they don’t like consequences. If they were honest, they’d have ended the marriage before cheating. Instead, they thrill to “duper’s delight.” They enjoy the secrecy of “getting away with it” and of denigrating their chumped spouse. They decide that our shortcomings justify their actions, and entitle them to do what they do. They don’t like the consequences of our telling what they did because it contradicts their entitled beliefs. They don’t like being exposed because they don’t like having their actions seen as what they really are: selfish betrayal.
THIS 👆!!! Well stated!
“she lies for the very simple reason that YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH”
Right there!!!!! VALUES
Please tell us you took Tracey’s advice and left that cheater and built a wonderful life… and left detailed reviews about that cheater apologist so-called therapist warning the public on every possible social media site!
Wait, What? You telling your side of the story equals the betrayal of your marriage vows? This is so not an equal thing. You have the right to let friends and family know about the thing that is tearing you apart right now. And that thing is your wifes infidelity. Your trauma does not equal her embarrassment. Trauma trumps embarrassment. She is definitely trying to DARVO this. Run . Run fast and run far. Model safety and health standards to your kids and kick her out. Remember, her saying that she does not have a problem, you do, is not a good look on her. It is not her fault that you became offended by her lies. It’s your fault for not, what,? Doing more? providing more? This is not a you problem, but a her problem. She has no care if you are hurt. Please stop catering to her. Instead, cater to you and your kids need for stability and safety.
Best Chumplady response ever!!
“It would be much easier to be me right now if I had chosen only a couple of people to confide in.”
Let me fix this for you… it would have incurred less narcissistic rage if I had just accepted being abused without complaint or pushback.
Yeah… probably, but is that the life you want to live? Fuck this entitled, compassionless, subhuman psycho.
You only get to choose your actions. You don’t get to choose the consequences, too.
Such BS! My FW did the same thing. During marriage counseling kept circling back bringing up how awful my parents were. Didnt want to discuss his issues. At that point I was young and naïve, didnt get it. Now I do! The way to handle it is grow some balls, or put on your big girl panties, and do not back down. With these people you go on the offensive, attack, attack, attack! They smell blood in the water. I used to say all the time, when I grew balls, I wont lie or live a lie, I dont keep secrets, especially for others, I wont play pretend, I will speak my truth, you dont like it go scratch! Keep circling back to cheating. They bring up telling, you ignore and circle back to cheating. Circle, circle, circle. You gotta call out counselors BS. Fire them if they dont listen to YOU! Then when you realize your wife sucks, kick her to the curb. You are a man, have a job? Have hair, can get it up still? You are in demand. You are a prize, a unicorn, there are so many women out there that would give you their all.
It’s okay, I’ve chosen some shit therapists too. It happens. We all make mistakes. Dump both the cheater and the crap therapist and live a happier life without their manipulative, pro-abuse BS.
How do you “wrap up” an affair? Couldn’t they just…you know…stop?
I also just have to comment on the excuse for continuing the affair. She has to keep fucking this man because if she abruptly stops fucking him that will harm his elderly wife? LOL WTF?! That makes me feel better about some of the shit I swallowed, for sure. But good God, how does that make sense to anybody?
You get to tell the truth about your life and your experiences! If there is anything that belongs to you in this world, it is that. Fuck that therapist and his/her crappy advice, and fuck (but not literally) your skanky low-life wife. She should be crying and begging for forgiveness and accepting all responsibility. There is no great mysetery as to why she did it: becaue she could and because she doesn’t give a shit about you.
Scream it from the mountaintops. As someone once said: “If the truth can destroy something, it should be destroyed.”
Good grief. Some poor chump off in Never-Never Land thinks it was a problem to tell the truth. If the cheater wanted better publicity, she shouldn’t have acted so badly.
Over here in the Real World liars and cheaters don’t get a pass just because it makes them look bad. Like that chump I made a bad choice when I married Cheaterpants. After many years I finally got myself together and got rid of him. I, too, had nothing to work with. I hope Chumped and Talked finally saw the light and made a new life for himself.
I used to have microseconds of mighty between lengthy periods of being a whimpering mass of protoplasm in the beginning. Goofy actually came to me when I was feeling strong, said the OW complained because I was telling people about her and Goofy. And I told him I was simply telling the truth and my story . . . she should have expected consequences. If she thought I cared about protecting her reputation, she was dumber than I thought. Your story, their secret. If you compare telling the truth to screwing over your spouse, I’m think the moral ground indicator is pegging to telling the truth. Your therapist was an ass.
Any counsellor who’s like “oh the way you acted was because of x y z and something’s wrong with you” and not simply because you may actually want some simple af HONESTY going on is complete BS.
Even saying it’s because you want punishment is bullshit — we just want the truth out there, full stop!
You tell that F@#king story! Expose that cheating bitch!!
I got some of that and I felt guilty. Now I am pissed I didn’t take it to the social media outlets! Probably better I didn’t because my settlement turned out well but dammit there is nothing I hate more then these cheaters playing victim. This letter got me all riled up and angry. I got to go to the gym!
Sorry to stereotype but a majority of the female cheaters I have come across seem to excel at playing victim. FW lied for years about me I find out now. A lie can get half way around the world before the truth gets its shoes on.
FW played holy and her lawyer told mine that I wasn’t allowed to “spread rumors”at the church because it would be slander. My badass lawyer responded in leagalise calling her lawyer a moron and FW a whore.
My lawyer was the best.
At one point I tried to limit the number of people I told to 5 per day. I think the least I told the first 3 months was 15/day 🙄😄😄😄
I actually agree with you because the mistresses are really good at playing victim too.
Oh I think lying is done by both. My fw I am absolutely sure talked me down to the whore. The only reason I think he didn’t to friends is people knew me really well and it would have rang pretty hollow, given all the crap he pulled.
I remember when I was stunned as he was telling me, I said did you talk about me to her? He said “what was I going to say, hey my wife is great, that is why I am here with you”. They have to talk us down. Can’t be running around and betraying a decent person.
I know today’s post is a repeat but it begs the question “Are we sure the wife is old and frail ? “ Maybe frailty from being married to an abusive fuckwit.
Chumped and Talked. You didn’t do anything wrong. I am a huge believer in telling all the wronged parties. Why? Because you can NOT trust the FW or the AP to tell their respective spouses. Ever. They will lie and say they told them, but hey we all know it’s liar liar pants on fire with these people. It’s the last fucking thing they will do. The innocent spouses need to be told so they can get STD testing, and lets face it, it’s the morally right thing to do. I only wish someone had told me 30 years ago my husband was cheating on me. A lot of people knew. All of them are morally bankrupt fucktards.
My cheating ex wife complained about me telling people why we were divorcing and said that I was “punishing” her. Always the victim. This is the mindset of entitled disordered people. Chump lady nails it again. She should be counseling counselors.
I agree with others who said ‘not’ to keep their partner’s affair silent. As well as suffering in tortured silence – with everyone thinking your partner is charming and funny, you’re allowing sparkle dick and schmoopie to continue their affair uninterrupted.
Let the world see what type of people they really are. CL nailed it with ‘ But when you’re uppity and tell people she’s cheating on you? You just made it a lot harder for her to win the I’m The Real Victim Here narrative sweepstakes. And you make it harder for her to continue her affair. #sparkledickcantcomeouttoplay’ 👏
Love your work CL ❤️
Wow! This poor chump has been seriously DARVO’d! The most telling part is the bit where he suggests we haven’t thought about this nasty twist of morality chest beating 😹 lol
Number one rule of leaving a cheater and gaining a life is DONT TRY TO GET CLOSURE! These weasels will blameshift everything back on you! Couples therapy just doubles down on that, couple therapy is fundamentally based on mutual accountability. That’s not how chumpdom works. So what he told people? We need support when we discover the betrayals, we need to make sense of it, and doing so in a vacuum is how we end up going back to these weasels. I know. I did it 7 times. 3 strikes and you’re out was my rule. Next minute we were at number 7! And by that I mean episodes of couple therapy. Way more cheating than that was going on.
Hope this poor chump reads the comments. Definitely learn up on DARVO buddy.
Your counselor doesn’t understand Betrayal Trauma. You aren’t bullying your FW. You were trying to wrap your head around your FW’s infidelity. Get a new counselor.
My angel therapist saw my XH ONE time. He saw me for the first time 4 days later. He told me to file immediately, get an order of protection and to call the police. I frozen, rocked back and forth and quivered as a true Chump. He was a complete stranger to me but he matched my gut feelings. I knew I was in big trouble. He told me not to come back until I followed his instructions. He also said not to return to his office until I followed his instructions. I followed them and saved my mental health and my life. Let me say, our Chump today who TALKED frozen in chumpdom. He does not have the courage or strength to break free yet. He is ACCEPTING BLAME, quivering in his counselors office and being eaten alive by his cheater and the therapist. It is so sad to read this because my first couple counseling wanted to talk about my XH cheaters sad life story and was not going to tell me he was actively abusing me. I confronted her later after I filed and my divorce was final. If I had listened to her I’d be on a locked unit because these cheaters play abusive games that tear us down. I’d tell this Chump to get out now. He has an abuser on his hands and he is unaware and had chosen to take the blame. You do have to be tough to RUN, you do have to lose ” friends “, lifestyle, money, house kids and let it go. If our today Chump is accepting abuse and it is OK with him, then at Chump nation we can only keep talking our stories. It’s so frustrating to hear but I understand completely. I was a chump too and accepted horrible abusive cheating, but I’m free now and full of joy. I don’t need cruel friends and family. I only needed support. My question is, how many cheaters are counselors, pastors, family members, and friends? You are only losing shallow people and never needed them anyway. Move on and live free
My ex used to almost command me not to tell people about his affairs. “It’s my story to tell,” he’d argue- and then wouldn’t tell anyone.
Eventually I started telling whoever I wanted. I told a lot of people! In retrospect I think I was trying to process it. Now days (6 years past, 5 divorced), I seldom mention it.
Notably I didn’t tell his parents any details because they’re decent and elderly people who didn’t deserve to be further hurt.
I should point out that I didn’t tell my adult age kids details either. However, if they asked me if Dad does sex clubs, has an open marriage with schmoopie etc., I’d confirm if I knew it to be true but without elaboration.
(Sigh. I still have a fair amount of anger for the fact he put me in a place where I have to think about such conversations. The gift that just never stops giving.)