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UBT: “How to break free from monogamy without destroying marriage”

wifeswapThe Universal Bullshit Translator is weary. So many stupid articles, so little time… The gears crank for the Washington Post’s “How to break free from monogamy without destroying marriage.”

(Sigh) Isn’t this what every cake-eating cheater tells themselves? I’ll keep all the niceties of marriage — the combined 401K, the way you buy my mother-in-law gifts, your Sunday pot roast, your child-rearing, the appearance of normalcy — and chuck the sexual commitment stuff! I can fuck around and Our Marriage Will Be Better for It!

Why didn’t anyone ever think of this before?! Yes, Caitlin Dewey, non-monogamous marriage is such a new, ground-breaking, revolutionary concept. No one has ever challenged the hegemony of monogamous marriage before! Caitlin, I guess you were born before the 1970s and the whole swinger thing, huh?

My parents had some friends who did the whole wife-swapping scene in the early 1970s. Here’s how it worked out. One of the “new” couples decided they liked that arrangement better, and left their spouses. The rejected chump wife went a bit mad and bought a gun to confront the lovers. Fortunately no one was killed or arrested. She got to raise 6 kids on her own (until her eventual happy remarriage later to a nice architect). I was in kindergarten at the time of the open marriage debacle and was buddies with two little boys from each of the destroyed families.

I came home one day and told my mom I was going to marry Brendan and then divorce him.

Then I asked my mother what a divorce was.

Oh, but those were more innocent times! You want an open marriage today? Now there’s an app for that!

The Washington Post article is reviewing “Open Minded” a new app for couples who want to swing. Jessie is one of its brave, new users.

Her first marriage, in her early 20s, had ended after an affair. (Hers.) Her second marriage, started shortly thereafter, was “happy — very happy,” but as her boys grew up and moved out and moved on, she was left faintly bored.

She thought about cheating on her husband of 20 years. She considered bars, parties, a review of the lapses in her mid-20s.

Instead, she sat her husband down and told him something that more and more progressive couples are beginning to realize. They loved each other and wanted to stay together — but in the age of Tinder and Ashley Madison and OkCupid, they also both wanted to have other options. Options they knew were just a click away.

Don’t you too want to be progressive and open minded? Still fucking the same ol’ same ol’? I think you can do better! And better is only a click away!

“Interesting, introspective, happily married D.C. professional,” reads Jessie’s profile on the new non-monogamous dating site Open Minded. “I’m into building deep and loving relationships that add to the joy and aliveness of being human.”

Because you can’t possibly feel “alive” and be monogamous. Those two things are completely incompatible along with monogamy and progressiveness, and monogamy and open-mindedness. Monogamy is oppressive! Deep, loving relationships are only a click away!

I’d like you to be home on Sunday to have brunch with my parents. Click! 

The baby’s barfing. Click!

I’m on a really tight deadline, could you please do the carpooling this week? Click!

Someone has to attend the 8th grade choral concert. Click!

I’ve got cancer. Click!

I’m sure all you hip, modern professionals are managing the home/work life balance just fine. Why not add dating to the mix?

Instead, says Brandon Wade, the site’s pragmatic, MIT-educated founder, Open Minded is a new kind of dating site for a newly mainstream lifestyle: one in which couples form very real attachments, just not exclusively with each other. He expects swingers, polysexuals and experimental 20-somethings to use his site. But he guesses that most of his 70,000 users are people like Jessie: Those in committed, conventional relationships, who realize that, statistically speaking, few modern couples stay with a single person their whole lives.

“If you look at marriage, it developed as a survival strategy and a means of raising kids,” Wade said. “But relationships are no longer a necessary component of life. People have careers and other interests — they can survive without them.”

Whoa, hang on there Wade. You’re selling the whole “very real attachment” thing in the first paragraph and then tell us relationships are unnecessary in the second paragraph. I mean, I know you’re an illustrious MIT grad, and I can’t begin to fathom the serious brain power that must go into a site like this, but I’m confused. I’m supposed to shop for new meaningful mates and then discard them?

That sure seems like a winning business strategy for a guy with a dating app.

Jessie doesn’t like that word. Adultery. It conjures images of lipstick stains and burner phones. Or worse, stonings and scarlet A’s. It also reminds her of her first marriage, which ended after an affair. She hated the lying, the sneaking around. This time, she wanted to be more honest.

In 2010, Jessie approached her husband with an idea she called “ethical non-monogamy.” They would stay together as each other’s primary, lifelong partners, but they wouldn’t rule out other relationships — as long as they happened openly. Jessie has shown her husband her profile on several dating sites, including Open Minded. When she returns from her weekly date with one of her four extramarital partners, she tells him as much, or as little, as he likes.

Publicly, no one knows about this arrangement. (It’s why we have agreed to just use her first name in this story.) Jessie doesn’t plan to tell her children, though she could see it coming up one day. She and her husband still have sex, still go to social functions, still celebrate anniversaries.

Well, Jessie, I commend you for proposing the idea openly. That is certainly better than cheating, as I’ve said here many times. I’m just wondering if you’ve thought this whole thing through.

Did it ever occur to you that you might not have a marriage to come home to? I guess the thinking is your marriage will be stronger if you give yourself free rein to sample other wares, but did you ever consider that your husband might enjoy younger ass? What if you’re having a bad day? What if you get sick? What if you’re in crisis? His four extramarital partners are probably a hell of lot more fun that you are with that crisis. Click!  I mean, who wouldn’t want to escape the bummer that is domestic life sometimes, huh?

Did you think your husband might not be turned on by viewing your dating profiles? Sure, he might pick me dance pretty for awhile, or create his own profiles. Yes, some men enjoy a cuckold kink. And other men get shotguns. I guess after 20 years of marriage, you just don’t know which one you have until you ask.

Good luck with that.

Click!

This column ran previously. Happy three-day weekend to some of us. (Not me, alas. However, I did oversleep.)

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • To all the ethical polyamorists who may comment today — the UBT is objecting to the whole springing the idea of opening the marriage on partners who thought they were in a monogamous marriage after the fact.

    And the whole disparaging of monogamy as uncool. (Eye roll…)

    As I’ve written here a thousand times before, polyamorists can be cheated on too. Letting go of monogamy doesn’t mean you won’t be cheated on. All you need are a set of agreed upon rules to break and some trust. That’s it.

    • Exactly, these people are delusional, on both sides, to think that opening the boundaries of what should be a sacred union will cause anything less than the destruction of that union. But hey, at that point I guess it wasn’t that sacred to begin with, so no losses there /sarcasm.

    • This is really the thing and you have outlined it really well. If we were to debate all of our perceptions of merits and flaws of polyamory in general, we would be missing the points.

      Cheating is cheating because it’s deceptive. If a person is sneaking around, they person is cheating you out of knowing the truth, cheating you out of personal safety, cheating you into thinking the relationship is a thing that it is not.

      It is much better for a person to be honest than to sneak, sure. As you identify, it’s also pretty f’ing entitled to start a relationship with a monogamy agreement then change it mid-stream and expect all your hopes and dreams to occur exactly as you direct them.

      And the kids in the family may not feel like the adults do. And if you think hiding your whole personal life forever is a solution… Well, now we’re back to cheating people out of an honest understanding of ourselves and the relationship, so…

      Yeah.

      Great post, CL!

    • Hey – they left out one of the most fun parts – you can go get STD treatment together! These people are a riot! They’re fake people who are in fake marriages and what they really want is to be single and date other fakes. They use people – it’s that simple. The fact that she ended up divorced after an affair says it all. Just get a divorce!

    • Well said! After reading this and other articles from the past about Ashley Madison I often now wonder if the entire WA Post article is nothing more than a bullshit advertisement in disguise and there is no person named Jessie. I learned about this tactic years ago from someone in the pharmaceutical industry. Ever see those articles touting new drugs? Yep, some are written by the companies who pay for space in a magazine. And some are not showing themselves as advertisements because of the way they are written.

      When Ashley Madison was outed it turned out that over 90% of the women were fake profiles luring men into paying for an account to speak to a bot. Worse than articles like this one, people claiming to do research on infidelity using Ashley Madison accounts to show that women cheat as much as men – so it is okay for women to cheat since so many are already; and that is called applied marketing psychology.

      I hate this shit. And to all the polymorous people out there – a shiny name for a bullshit life-style. Cheating is cheating. It’s like putting lipstick on a pig.

      https://www.extremetech.com/internet/213019-new-analysis-shows-over-99-percent-of-the-women-on-ashley-madison-were-fake

      https://www.yourtango.com/experts/charles-j-orlando/ashley-madison-isnt-only-dating-site-using-fake-profiles

  • The OW of my STBX is apparently in an open relationship. Unfortunately her values on marriage – or lack of them – extended to chasing married men and not respecting anyone’s marriage, including mine. Her husband only knew of the 6mth (or longer?) affair two weeks before I did. Not very open. But he also isn’t much of a chump – defended her and told me that OW was ‘not accountable to me’.

    I just think, why get married at all if you don’t want monogamy? And if you’re into polyamory, fine, but respect that not everyone else is.

    • Cheaters lie to everyone! Everyone! They should not be defended by anyone. I can’t say it enough – cheaters lie to everyone. What you do when you find out you’ve been lied to too is on you.

      • Yep. By lying to me, my ex lied to his father, who he holds in high regard (???) and his friends.
        He doesn’t even think twice about it. He’s lied to me about stuff that didn’t even matter, more recently, which he’d never done (that I know of). Pathological condition which worsens over time.

  • Hmm. The article doesn’t mention what Jessie’s husband’s response was. And what about STDs, stalkers, and crazy creeps? After d-day #3 I suggested open marriage to my serial cheater STBX. His response: “I don’t think I could handle that.” Boy bye!

    • Ditto! In a crazed moment I incredulously asked cheating XH who after 18 weeks of fake wreconciliation was caught yet again contacting OW if he wanted an open marriage— and I quickly followed that by “and just how the hell is that going to work?” XH responded that he didn’t want that. Huh? His hand was finally played: he wanted to unilaterally fuck around with whomever whenever but keep me firmly in place performing my role of wife appliance with no reciprocity, respect, or care for me beyond what I could do for him. Hell no! I signed up for traditional marriage and put my all into it for 25 years. I gave him 2 hours to GTFO after that. It was over. His mask slipped and I looked into the face of evil.

      Life here at Meh 4.5 years later is so amazingKy peaceful and I only have relationships with people of integrity who are who they say they are— committed.

      Divorced, financially independent from any man, completely no contact with that sick loser. Thank God!

      • Open marriage on one side only = cake! If both parties are doing it, it becomes a challenge to the cheater’s ego that cannot be sustained.

        I’m working on meh. Still angry so I have a way to go.

      • His mask slipped and I looked into the face of “all about me only and don’t give a fukk about you but I will pretend while there’s meat on the carcass. “

      • Omg similar story here! Serial cheater ex blamed me of course and said the problem was I wouldn’t let her be polyamorous. I’m so controlling according to her and her lovers of course. *rolls eyes*

        So after YEARS of her blaming me and saying the problem was that we were monogamous and her pushing a specific person on to me, for YEARS, I finally gave in and agreed. And then HOLY SHIT did the shit hit the fan when she saw that I was with someone else, the person she pushed on me. That’s when the worst of the worst abuse started.

        I’m actually grateful for this happening because being with someone else, who treated me much better btw, opened my mind to the fact that I didn’t have to live with constant abuse and lies. All of this was part of the final straw that pushed me to finally leave all the abuse.

        Cheaters truly just want cake. One sided cake. And secrecy. True polyamory is far too egalitarian for the likes of them. Btw, she was STILL cheating on me the whole time while we were “polymorous.”

        Now I’m in a happily committed monogamous relationship with zero abuse and all truth all the time.

        • I can’t wrap my mind around the concept of polyamorous. Isn’t that just a made-up term to say that the person is fucking multiple people??
          That the person is in love with multiple people? And everyone involved is cool with it? No jealousy or acting-out? I call bullshit on that nonsense.
          God calls it all sin. No adultery allowed. No fornication allowed. That’s why people hide. Secret deeds of the dark. Its wrong.
          Everyone who does it knows its wrong. No matter what stupid terms or apps are invented.

          • I absolutely agree with Chumpalou, belief in religion or not. Doesn’t matter. I was cheated on after a 28 year monogamous marriage and then told the solution would be for me to allow HIM to become polyamory so he could have “both of us”. That’s just a bunch of bullshit and a big NO. I contend from what I’ve learned that all polyamorous types have a very low emotional IQ, inability to sufficiently bond, and zero object constancy. It’s a way to distract and delude from serious issues that should be addressed. My opinion, so don’t try and change my mind.

            • Diary,

              I mostly agree. In my experience, I tend to think it’s for people who don’t want that much commitment or intimacy. To each their own. Just be honest from the get-go.

              I’m highly biased against it too, even though I finally submitted to it for a few months after years and years of abuse that pretty much forced me to get there. I wouldn’t go so far as to say the people who do it necessarily have low emotional intelligence, but they are definitely looking for different things than me and have a different value system than I have. But, that said, I definitely know my share of polyamorous folks who are not terribly high on the emotional intelligence (or other intelligence) scales. *rolls eyes*

            • Diary,

              Also to tack on to my last point, anyone who brings up “polyamory” after starting off as monogamous and then cheating is a royal piece of shit. Low emotional intelligence is an understatement for that kind of loser. That’s just trying to justify cheating. And there are enough cheater-polyamory types out there who will police you and support cheater’s actions. That’s what I experienced hardcore. Polyam-flying monkeys-cheating supreme.

              But I can tell you from experience, they don’t want “polyamory” anyways. They just want one-sided cake.

              • I guess the low emotional IQ is something I was speaking about my own personal situation. One of the few times he went to therapy, the guy said that to him and he ran out in a rage. We’re divorced now after 2.5 years of contentious hell, because I would NEVER agree to his open marriage BS. I don’t know what happened to the man I married. I guess when the mask slips, you can’t ever go back. Thank goodness I had an awesome therapist. And def yes to the one sided cake. Let those kind all have each other, I am “boring” “controlling” “too moral” “live on my moral high ground” than the delusional world that he lives in. He really should have known I was never going to accept that “progressive” “monogamish” crap he was selling.

          • Chumpalou, I’m hardly a spokesperson for polyamory because I really deep down am monogamous. But I tried it out for a short while so I have thoughts.

            Add to that that I’m not religious so concepts of “sin” are completely irrelevant to me. I live according to a strict set of values that are based in human rights, honesty, and accountability but have nothing to do with any church, so I can’t personally speak to any of that.

            But what I can say from my very brief foray into polyamory is that there is a world of difference between giving consent to your partner being with someone (polyamory) else versus being lied to and gaslighted and giving no consent (cheating). It feels VERY different. Cheating is abuse, no question, on so many simultaneous levels. Polyamory to me felt like a valid relationship style based in honesty and consent (the second partner was honest and I was honest at least). I see why folks choose it. But it wasn’t my thing in the end. I just much prefer the level of intimacy and commitment I’m more likely to find in monogamy.

            Just my two cents from my brief interaction with “the other side.”

      • what were the small steps that took you here?
        like can you identify what it looked like at 2yrs, 3yrs,… etc. did you have minor kids, and if yes,
        how did you handle the required contact due to this connection??

      • I can really relate to your scenario deeply. It’s almost identical to mine. The peace on the other side is indescribably beautiful. You choose the high road and it’s the toughest, but greatest thing you ever do!

      • My wild childhood friend named “B” had the only open marriage I knew of, which was opened by the her after the marriage was supposed to be monogamous. She had married a guy who worshipped her.

        I thought she was cheating and asked how it was going, when she informed me that she “always” told her husband when she slept with another man, adding,** “If you don’t have honesty in a marriage, – how are you going to have trust???” ** (Let that sink in)

        (I was drinking a cocktail at the moment she blurted that out and almost choked on an ice cube. Lesson learned).

        I never felt that her husband was too gung ho about it but I know for awhile he went along with it.
        He also had sex with other women.

        Not surprisingly, a few years passed and he fell in love with a woman he was sleeping with and left B.
        This SHOCKED her and now, years later, I have heard her tell multiple people that “He cheated on her.”

        I felt like Kathy Bates in Misery when her tv show changes characters and thinks no one will notice. “Does America have amnesia???!”

        When I told her I recalled things differently, she said “I don’t need to hear that shit. I know I played with fire.”

        Yep, she played with fire, she burned her husband but then he survived, and found a woman who wanted just one man. He is happy. And she feels SHE got burned.

        Whatever. I just don’t see it working long term. But then maybe that’s me and my trivial closed minded bourgeois values…

        • My ex did me the favor of offering me the chance to continue to be cheated on in front of my face. I asked him “what do I get out of it?” And he couldn’t come up with an answer. All he could tell me is what he would get out of it: “All the things!”

          So we divorced and 3 years later he is still living in his parents’ basement. LOL. His non-ethical non-monogamy is an insult to polyamory.

      • MC99,

        My thoughts too. I would like to know what her husband is thinking about ‘her’ decision.

        In my way of thinking about the situation, I can’t help but think there is huge manipulation going on here and, again my thinking is that it has to do with $$$$$. It is a long term marriage so I gather they are older and divorce is a risky deal as we age in terms of maintained financial security.

        Wonder who in that partnership has the control over the money. If it is her then it makes sense why he is putting up with her swinging. On the other hand, if the money is in his pocket it makes perfect sense why she doesn’t want a divorce.

        In any event, what you stated about your situation was mine. A wife appliance. He wanted a divorce so he could ‘be free to date other women without feeling guilty’ No concern for how his behavior had hurt me and out children, he is a serial cheater – discovered after DdAY #1, he just wanted to run off into the sunset free from guilt and free to fuck whomever he chose.

        I seriously doubt he has any guilt over what he has done to his own family or to all the women he chose to involve in adultery by fucking them while married.

        This site, and Tracy’s repeated, ‘trust that they suck’, is slowly freeing me from any ideas I had about him being a good guy who just made a mistake….

      • Sounds familiar
        Ok, we will do whatever we want from now on
        – but I don’t want that
        – you were fucking around since the day one… what exactly is not up to your liking?
        – but I don’t want to do it anymore
        – 🦗

        Yes, he was, is and will fuck around, completely destroying my self esteem as a woman, withholding sex for years, but – his Ego can’t stand my fun on the side?

        It showed me everything

  • It’s incredible the amount of bullshit that can be layered on top of ‘I want people to take care of me, and me to take care only of myself’

  • When I found out that my (now) Ex-Wife was cheating she denied everything and then came out with this beauty:

    “I did think about suggesting that we stay together for appearances’ sake and for the sake of the children, but that we agree to an open marriage and that we see other people; but you are just not emotionally mature enough to make a relationship like that work, so we will have to get divorced.”

    I just laughed at her and said that I was sorry that – once again – it was only my alleged shortcomings that prevented her from having what she wanted, regardless of the impact on myself and our three children. I’m still not sure that my intentional irony wasn’t completely lost on her, but that’s what comes from me having married a well disguised narcissist.

    Plot spoiler – I lawyered up, divorced her (clean break), got custody of our children and got promoted at work a month after the divorce was finalised. The kids and I are doing pretty great all told – give or take the odd bump on the road – and she can kiss our collective a*ses.

    As for my emotional maturity, well, who gives a sh*t what she thinks?

    • LookingForwardtoTuesday:

      May I ask how you got custody of the kids? My STBX cheated on me in our home with my friend. They bonded over smoking pot, drinking, sex and intimate conversations about their lives. My lawyer said I didn’t have enough to get more than 50/50 split with him and that’s how it ended up. He’s not a ‘bad dad’ just lacks character (always, not just for the affair) and while he’s someone everyone likes, he’s not a good role model for many reasons. But, somehow I didn’t have enough yet you ended up with full custody, I was wondering how that worked out that way.

      • WTHH,

        No clever legal stuff involved as far as the children were concerned.

        They would have cramped her new fantasy life with her AP. Sooooo …. they wanted to stay with me, I wanted them to stay with me and she didn’t seem to want them. Pretty easy to sort things out when that is your startpoint.

        That said, what goes around comes around; sorting out our finances was a complete and utter sh*tshow …… because access the money that I earned was never going to be something that she let go of willingly.

  • My ex asked me to share him, I said no. Unfortunately I later found he had a sti. He said she was “fun” she was a alcoholic and a drug addict. With stalking tendencies. Not so much fun for her kids. My ex said this year I wasn’t boring so obviously they think I’m boring. She doesn’t have her kids, I don’t think being a drug addict, alcoholic, is that much fun some where in this whole piece of crap, someone got pregnant, not me. His ow (s) don’t want their own kids, but will get pregnant.
    He actually believes what they tell him. Or chooses too.
    She actually asked me to feel sorry for her.

    • Stbxh is this level of stupid also.

      (But he’s setting up a new appliance. The house is cleaner than when I was here last and it looks like twu luv. Lots of alcohol in the cupboard but can’t pay the mortgage. )
      That reminds me – back to packing my stuff.

      • Langele, Yes, don’t get sidetracked! Pack your stuff and get out.

        I was sidetracked this morning after 8 months in and just waiting for the final. Last night I spent a good amount of time in my dreams, trying to get him to come back. Wanting him to find his way home yet other men were vying for my attention and I wouldn’t give in to them. I woke up in a fog and immediately thought I should let him know that I still care about him, ask if he thought about not completing the divorce, etc…..

        It took me a few hours to wake up all the way, clear my head and realize it had just been dreams. NO WAY would I be asking him back! No way did I want him to come back! I don’t know if it was CL or another book I read that said between midnight and 6 a.m. not to pay attention to anything that comes to your mind. It is clouded with sleep, brain fog, tiredness and isn’t real. My helper is here today and I was telling her my dream and what I had thought of doing, as she stood there with a dumbfounded look on her face and asked if I was really going to do that. She looked so relieved when I told her I was ok and reality had slapped me awake.

  • I think the article actually illustrates the motivation for cheating very well. (And let’s be real: she was already cheating when she broke the news to her chumpy husband.)

    She says herself that she was happy with her husband, didn’t want a divorce, but she was kind of bored. Bored? Oh, alas and woe! The lady is BORED! Well, she could take up cross-stitching or skeet shooting, but having no empathy for her husband at all, she decides to take up the hobby of pursuing other men online.

    Yep, my Cheater wanted an open marriage too. He made it clear that he was fine with me hanging around to wash his dishes and clean his bathroom. He just wanted some excitement. He was shocked… SHOCKED … that I would rather break up the family than let him trot women in and out of our house in front of the children while I scrubbed the floors. And now it is all my fault that we broke up. I guess I wasn’t open-minded. He is now equally shocked… SHOCKED … that the kids won’t talk to him. And he was so progressive! They are just no fun, I guess.

    • Yes I hear you. My STBX was horrible and kept saying there was no rush to divorce (of course not I was doing all the work while he played). He told me he had become a better person – wtf? He ten felt “abandoned” when everyone supported me. They truly drink some funky kool aid.

    • Carol39,

      I had to smile as I read what you wrote and your paragraph on ‘boredom’.

      Over the past couple of nights I have been reading letters my mother wrote to me almost 40 years ago in which she was telling me what I was like as a child. She described me as becoming easily bored once I had ‘mastered’ something. She went on to tell me that to deal with my boredom I did teach myself to knit and to do other things in order to keep myself happily and productively occupied and content.

      I still can become bored and it NEVER crossed my mind to cheat on the x..

      Moral of my story: If an elementary schooler can figure out how to deal with her bored state of mind surely a grown woman can do the same.

      Conclusion of my story: Cheaters are immature. Cheaters blame shift and blame spouses for their boredom. Cheaters do not learn how to solve their own mind-made problems. Cheaters do not mature EVER.

      🙂 🙂 🙂

  • Exh2/TEO tried to open the door of an open marriage several times by offering me a “hall pass”, to which I firmly slammed shut.
    He would suggest that I go out with my friends and find someone to bring home to have sex with in front of him, or he could hide and watch from aside … I refused quoting a line from Moonstruck:
    “…. Because I’m married. Because I know who I am…”
    It didn’t matter if he was “giving (me) permission” — I wasn’t a cheater.
    In the last few months of our marriage, I said to him that I felt he was setting me up for an adultery charge so he could divorce me and take custody of our Autistic daughter. He became angry at the notion but never brought it up again.
    D-Day was three months later.
    Four years now since it all went down and I still remember that conversation.

    • Creepy AF that he wanted you to let him hide from a person who didn’t know he was there while he watched. Yikes!

      I mean, not that the rest of it isn’t awful, that part just skeeved me out most.

      • Yes, it was creepy as f*ck to hear him paint the picture.
        Maybe TMI, but during sex he would demand that I tell him I was imagining having sex with someone else right then and there…
        He said he wanted manX to work me up then he would join us or take over…
        The whole thing was disgusting and disrespectful to me, so I .would shut down and he would get mad.as.hell.
        Looking back now, I realize just how much I survived with him.
        He is truly the stuff of nightmares

    • Then he could leap from his hiding place, kill you both, and probably get away with it. “Crime of passion.” You may have dodged a bullet.

      • Yes, I agree.
        I honestly never thought of that scenario, and I’ve watched hundreds of hours of Dateline, 48 hours, snapped, etc. to know how evil tries to plan a murder.
        He would jeopardize himself going back to prison.
        He truly is The Evil One.
        I wonder if he’s started this shit up with OWhore/Mrs. Dumbass

  • “Relationships are no longer a necessary component of life” ???????

    I’m so glad I love my life and the world so much, or I just wouldn’t want to be here any more. I guess my take on this is that any lifestyle is ok as long as everyone is honest. The deception is what made us Chumps.

    • Plus – if people want a union which gives them emotional, financial and practical support but want to fuck who the hell they like, can’t they just invent a new legal relationship? Why not solemnise and legalise the bond of BFFs and take the sacred out of it? Would that stop the heartache or would disordered people just find another way to screw over their honestly bonded life partners? Bet they would, entitlement will out. I can usually even, but today I just can’t even! Gah

  • While my ex was fucking around I know darn well that all hell would be to play if I ever did the same. It was ok for him you see, but the jealous little fuck couldn’t possibly cope with my doing the same (not that I ever would). Hell, he used to accuse me of having an affair and meeting up with my lover on a Saturday morning because I took too long to do the grocery shopping!!!! In the end I got so fed up of hearing that I told him “yeah, I’m the screwing the fishmonger, that way you won’t notice the smell”! Dickhead!

    • Yes, my XH was the same. He lost his shit over me just chatting to some other Dad on the sideline at kids footy, accused me of cheating and told me if I ever did that he’d leave with the kids and I’d NEVER see them again…ONLY to leave me and the kids for the OW and practically never come back to see his kids again?!

        • My XW said she would divorce me if I EVER had an affair. While she was having multiple affairs. Blows my mind, even today.

          • Sirchumpalot,

            That’s fucked up. You are SO much better w/out her being in your life. And I’m right there w/you. I’m not missing the fuckeduppedness that was and is my FW XW. As my brother told her, she and her AP deserve each other, and the rest of us that have some good morals and empathy for others (not like the fake act she puts on for general consumption) are well rid of them. Shallow, fucked up pieces of shit.

            Peace to you, and may we all find peace as well. Still a hard, long road to meh for me. Although I’ve gotten a good amount of peace through greyrock, I still get angry thinking about how casually the FW XW unilaterally decided that our love and marriage were over, that counseling wouldn’t have helped (suggested by her therapist, who she started seeing w/out ever bothering to tell me). Also, the abandonment of our family, so easily achieved by her. It still makes me ill.

            Reading all these accounts brings things up the FW XW did in my mind and gets me angry all over again. Not to mention, I still get sick when I occasionally think of the two of them physically together. Not necessarily sexually, but just w/fake love and intimacy, which is all they’re capable of. It doesn’t help they live right around the corner from me, I suppose. Five more years ‘till my son graduates from high school. Then I’ll have more options available regarding where I live.

            But I wouldn’t trade what I’ve learned on this site and the people I’ve gotten to know through their posts for anything. I would’ve struggled harder and longer if I hadn’t found CL and CN. Big thanks to everyone here that shares or shared their chump stories. It helps all the new chumps realize they’re not alone, which is HUGE (I swear, I’m not trying to imitate any well known politicians/narcissists. Honest!). CL crystalized my thinking about the FW XW’s adultery. I knew this stuff deep down, but it would have taken me a long time to spit it out in such a logical argument/presentation. Thank you, Tracy!

    • Attie,

      My now ex-husband, while we were married, used to call me while I was at the grocery story buying food for our family late evening after leaving the classroom to angrily order me home and often accused me of not doing what/being where I said I was. I told him that he could meet me at our grocery store. Now that we are divorced, he tells the Court that I don’t feed our kids.

  • Have now watched two different swinging couples break when the partners chose one of the others instead.
    My ex abandoned kids and I for the OW and I can’t honestly say I wouldn’t have tried to “make it work” if given the option..but, swinging is not for me. It was bad enough imagining my ex with someone else let alone being there to watch or hear about it. And in the end, “relationships” don’t seem to survive that.
    Don’t people have real lives anymore, that they have all this time to worry about how sexed up and sexy they are? That poor hubby probably thought he’d get some focus from his wife now the kids were gone. Hope he LACAGAL.

    • Faithful,

      My husband is now involved with my ex-friend, who was in an agreed upon arrangement with her husband. The other person chose the husband and not her, just like you wrote. She was crashing at my house as needed during their divorce, bonded with my husband and they ran off together. They smoke pot, drink all the time, she has a long history of lots of things yet this is the type of person he wants to be with. She’s fun. Blah blah blah. We were on the rocks anyway, headed for divorce at some point probably but the way it went down was all kinds of wrong.

      I’m just waiting on the final paperwork and will be able to continue healing. You mustn’t even consider taking him back. That kind of character is not what you or I need in our lives. They’ve shown who they are, which I knew already but did lots of spackling. Mine isn’t a horrible person, just not someone I care to share my life with anymore and No Way would I do it after this kind of betrayal. Wreckonciliation is all it would be.

      I hope you’re in a better place now.

  • Hmm,open marriage. I never understood that concept. Swinging to me is gross. But, whatever floats their boat. If you want to have different sex partners then don’t get married. I ran into my cousins ex husband last week. And we had a long talk. He mentioned that my cousin used to cheat on him. She would use one of her friends as an alibi. That friend would drop her off at men’s houses and she would pick her up a few hours later. When he found out he moved out and filed for divorce. He apologized for his EX ruining my marriage. Was appalled that she chose to cheat with her cousin’s husband. My Ex sure could pick them.

    Open marriage in my opinion is just another form of cake eating. One spouse(the one who suggested it) benefits more than the other. But, in my case and my cousin’s ex husband’s case we did not know that the rules changed. If swinging works for some couples more power to them.

  • Don’t forget about the suffering of the children who are in this situation!

    I went to school with a beautiful young woman who was born into a family who was a part of a local swingers group. She broke down to me once and cried out in anguish “I don’t know who my father is”. She said she thought about having her DNA tested, but she could never go through with it. She loved the father that raised her, but there was a strange bond with the one she suspected was her biological father.

    This really screwed up her sense of commitment to monogamy. She went through at least one failed marriage (that I know of) due to her infidelity. She knows it was her choice and is disgusted by how easy it was for her to cheat.

    I’m not saying the behavior wasn’t her choice, but being raised the way she was definitely didn’t help her to understand what commitment really means. When you grow up thinking open marriage is normal, being “abnormal” becomes a lot more difficult.

    • A year ago my husband announced he had had an affair and she was pregnant. This was bad enough but I later learned that he had been unfaithful every single day of the 20 years we were together. Recently, I read an article about polyamory and how there was some primary relationship in the marriage but they would both have other lovers. I couldn’t help thinking it was naive. Imagine being say 30, and thinking you are the primary relationship and one day you will start a family together only to have your husband impregnate some other woman first. Then what happens when he decides he doesn’t want to be an absentee dad? How is that supposed to work? Did they talk through it first?

      Being the chump that I am, I felt for the blameless child and let him have a relationship with the baby but asked him to protect the marriage by ending it with the affair partner. He did nothing of the sort. He spent more and more time in Vienna with the “baby” and less in London with me and his 13 year old daughter. She hates him and will no long speak to him. She says he chose the baby over her. I told her what he told me, namely that he chose the baby over me. She shot back that he was an asshole and I was there to see just how much of a chump I was. I actually thought it was reasonable for him to discard me and my daughter after 20 years.

      I can’t help thinking that these polyamorous or open marriages will struggle under such stresses when the “idealistic” assumptions are put to test.

  • At the risk of my future ads, and noticing the date and mentions to “Ashley Madison” I went to see if this app was still around. Shockingly, it is on a “break” lol. But his companion app to find prositutes still lives. So, I guess we just aren’t all that hip and progressive after all? 😝

  • Chump Lady, you may have uncovered the spark that set my marriage’s destruction in motion.

    This was published in the spring of 2015, right around the time KK began spending large chunks of her evenings holed up in our bedroom, “listening to music.” The entire summer she seemed oddly distracted. In October she lowered the open marriage boom, right down to “marriage developed as a survival strategy” (she changed it slightly to “marriage is a societal construct”).

    And, in keeping with last week’s “fails” challenge, I’m sorry to say I fell for it. Who doesn’t want to believe their progressive, open-minded and non-judgemental? Especially when there’s 20 years of history and small children to create shared values.

    But as you note: “Letting go of monogamy doesn’t mean you won’t be cheated on. All you need are a set of agreed upon rules to break and some trust.” And, if I may add — a rock-solid sense of entitlement.

      • Of course it wasn’t “all” it took — entitlement and a gunnysack full of long-spackled-over character issues were the greater culprits. But there are just too many almost-verbatim bits here for it to be a real coincidence.

        “We’re told we only have enough love for one person . . .” was changed to “Love isn’t like a pie, where there’s only a finite amount that can be spread around . . .” (Little did I know: to people like her, love is more like cake.)

        • Did you get the patented “how can you expect one person to meet all of your needs?” Or “you don’t need to be jealous, you’re still my primary!”

          Ugghghhh. Calling your wife from Burning Man, while she is home with the kids, to inform her of your sexcapades is not polyamory or ethical non-monogamy. It’s just plain shitty life skills. I do have to thank him for showing who he really was so I could quit trying to save our “marriage.”

  • Here’s an ideal concept. If we want to “modernize” marriage why don’t we start by making it a legal iron clad contract? Let’s do away with divorce courts and get rid of legal gray areas. Breeding with fuckwits shouldn’t be a lifelong sentence of shit sandwiches. You want to be “open minded” let’s start there. You’re free to change your mind on an level playing field.

  • Just the other day I saw the train wreck of this very situation on Dr. Phil. He said he had never seen it work, even one time, in 40 years. I believe him.

    Like Chumplady, he was not talking about relationship rules that EVERYONE INVOLVED AGREES TO, honestly, without lying directly or by omission.

    I am thinking about KEEPING AGREEMENTS and TELLING THE TRUTH. Two components of INTEGRITY that my STBXH lacked, and I spackled over, from the very start of our entanglement. I should not be surprised that this handicap extended to keeping wedding vows.

    He showed me immediately that he was dishonest and couldn’t keep agreements. It was my mistake to think that this was compartmentalized behavior, that it only occurred in certain situations. Can you say “denial”?

    THIS IS THE WAY HE IS IN ANY AND ALL
    SITUATIONS.

    Cheaters get involved with and defraud monogamous people….so there must be something attractive about monogamy. There’s no thrill in hooking up aboveboard and beforehand with fellow cheaters.

    • I saw that one as well! And whew, was that some messed up stuff going on.

      Triangle dude doesn’t realize the mess he’s involved in and wanted to Marry Her! ugh, so dumb.

      My husband wasn’t a swinger but is now involved with one. I can’t wait til she cheats on him because it’s coming whether he thinks it is or not. Everyone knows they aren’t going to make it and if they do it’s out of spite or something, but not bc they can.

      “He showed me immediately that he was dishonest” Mine had a big dishonest quality about him yet deflected it onto me accusing me of lying when I certainly wasn’t. Oh wait, yes I was. I would say how much something cost so I could tell him the real cost and what good of a deal I got! that was about the extent of it, hahhah!

    • I’m the QUEEN of spackle. Red flags everywhere, in both marriages, yet I still went ahead with them. I was in LOVE!!

      First X couldn’t stop seeing hookers, blamed his hyper-sexuality on his bi-polar diagnosis (after it had killed out marriage), and was an entitled and impulsive prick.

      Current STBX wanted the “open marriage” after his activities came to light. Nope. I didn’t agree to that going in, and can’t ever see myself agreeing to it. FYI, John Gottman, of the Gottman Institute notes drily that Open Marriages usually result in “emotional casualties” and has yet to see one work out long term.

      • also turns out the person who suggests the open marriage is the one who becomes less happy with the situation. I know someone whose wife proposed polyamory, then eventually had to be hospitalized with a breakdown.

        • Yep! And also, if someone just announces after twenty years that they “need” an open relationship, that isn’t really both people going in honestly is it? If someone has already invested twenty years and had children, mingled finances, property, and retirement–they now have so much more to lose. To me that seems like an element of coercion, doesn’t it. A person who might well have walked away if that had been the premise at the outset, might well feel like they couldn’t now that it happens so deep in. It is a kind of emotional and financial blackmail–a mindfuck of the worst sort because now, not only are they supposed to be okay with their partners non-monogamy, they are supposed to “go along” and compromise their own values as well. This is just another long con blameshift: Do this or I’ll take your children, and your house, and your property. If you don’t do this it is your fault the marriage is breaking up–If you do do this then you are agreeing we both mutually want this and you can’t be mad! An extraordinary mindfuck indeed.

  • Why did the woman even bother to get married again ?

    She had an affair in her first marriage and in her second she’s bored and needs random dicks to keep her amused .

    She should just end her marriage as it’s quiet obvious she has no intention of staying faithful again !!!

    She has no idea what marriage means .
    I hope her poor husband dumps her sorry ass meets someone worthy of him . I hope she gets a life time of random dicks

    • I’m in total agreement. But to answer your question, I’d just add what I think is a clarifying point about these types of people. We chumps almost never cease to reflexively apply our internal world to them and their experience of the world. You really can only understand them once you fully accept how different their experience of reality actually is from ours.

      Imagine that every single human being is born to be a musician. Like, that’s just what we do innately. Music is the analogy for essential humanity or human nature. Different personalities might be like different instruments. Different cultures might be like different styles of music. But those with character deficiencies would be like being tone-deaf in such a world. They still hear stuff, they just don’t hear it fully or clearly. The most beautiful music is dampened into tonal mush for them. But it’s all they know. So just as they don’t know how off they are, neither do we notice it in them either – until their solo comes up. As the rest of us talk about our experience of life and of its most beautiful parts like “meaning” and “connection” and understand related concepts like “marriage”, so do they (so they think). They take our nomenclature but bastardise it by defining it with their dampened experience of it.

      I believe their character defects ultimately become (very early on in life) just as physiological as a condition of tone deafness would be. It isn’t simply misunderstanding or lack of information or mistaken judgment that leaves them deficient. They are developmentally different. And it leaves them, quite literally, incapable of experiencing fully what we experience. So they are moved more by what they can experience – simplistic arousals and tittlating little highs. The buzzing vibrations of the strings on the instrument. Things which we experience as well but within a much deeper and wider context of our experience of life’s music. They go along with everyone else, professing outwardly the wonderfulness of the music, but thinking everyone else is lying just like them and knows the buzzing is where it’s at. Either that or that others are just stupid dullards. Alternating between the two makes the outside world make sense for them as they continue to use our terms and continue to believe they are fully experiencing the world. They even think they are more in touch with the experiences the world than we are, because so often they see no need (no benefit) for the coordinations that produce the melodies we others seek, and which they cannot hear. So they use them, to the extent such coordinations seem to be the way of the world, and do thereby ease their way. But it’s all because they don’t actually know or experience anything better or more. Tone deaf is how they hear our world. This is why she would get married a second time.

      • I hate signing in and doing all the acrobatics of leaving comments but must do so for this post.

        So wonderful, beautiful and right on! Would love an even longer discourse on this analogy.

        My fave part is where the cheaters silently believe everyone also thinks the “buzz is where it’s at” but are lying.

        Bravo for this brilliance!

        • Once you fully realize how different the world feels to them, in every moment and in every situation, their behavior becomes less baffling. A logical framework starts to form and with that a predictability to their thinking and actions. They cannot feel what we feel. Their brains were not fed the emotional nutrients – in the smallest of vulnerable moments – to develop the biochemical reward response that we experience. They don’t love a bond. They can’t feel it’s constant presence like we can. But they can feel arousal. That comes from the brain stem, the first part to form. This is the only thing that really feels real to them. It is the reference point around which all other things are ordered and valued. And unlike the biochemical feed of a bond, arousal’s cocktail is temporary. And they can feel all the narcissistic currencies. These arise from the middle brain and are in place and functioning in infancy. But they feel no reward from giving over its self-centrality for a bond with another that lifts us out of our essentially alone state. That possibility doesn’t actually exist for them and they literally cannot feel its reward. They can only ever feel one-up, central, and this takes different subtle forms with children, adults, etc but it is always the same essential dynamic. It took us some difficulty to learn to grow beyond this ourselves but we had something to both prod us and warmly reward us as we did. And having done so, we feel our greatest rewards in these areas beyond self; in empathy, in relationship, in honor. But they exist within a rather simplistic set of internal experiences and rewards. The only thing complex about it is how they manage to make it functional within a broader world that is mostly based on not being so handicapped, or how they square their known experience of the world with what the world itself says to them about the presence of an entirely different level of experience. They don’t conclude they are lacking. That would drive someone insane. They simply translate absolutely everything to mean something which they can experience and adopt an underlying cynicism about the rest. But at the end of the day, the feelings they can experience are always only transitory. So in large events and small, they are constantly seeking either a feed or a distraction. The alternative for them is glaring emptiness. Pettiness becomes key because it provides small wins in the periods between large wins. They don’t show this, but it is what’s going on inside them literally 100% of the time. Always either seeking a feed to their grandiosity, proof of their centrality, a charge of illicit arousal, or some other short-lived reward, or winning through exacting petty revenge against those who either intentionally or accidentally obstructed the former.

          It is so difficult to accept that this is actually the essential nature of a person. But it is. The neural networks and biochemical systems of their brains developed and function differently. This is how they can be so comfortable being so vile. This is how they can steal the very lives of others like parasites and have it never dawn on them that there might be any sort of issue with that. They are developmentally stunted and thereby fundamentally different. That so many seam to use tactics from the same limited playbook, and so many are driven by the same limited priorities, shows its a decidedly “human” defect. Just as the orphans of Romania show profound levels of reactive attachment disorder, these narcissistic defectives are what get produced from a lesser degree of emotional neglect.

  • Seems many people don’t study history; having lovers/concubines/drunken one offs are as old as time.

    Ever wonder what happened to the word lover? As in ‘Mama took a lover in 1888.’ Lol

    Silly humans, always acting on their perceived boredom.

    • What!? And have noone to pick up the drycleaning, clean the house for free, have dinner ready, walk the pets and clean the pool? (I know you’re equal parts pragmatism and snark).

  • “How to break free of monogamy without destroy in marriage?” You mean, “How to get all the perks of monogamy without fulfilling my commitment?” Or more to the point, “How to get something for nothing?” That thought is NEVER far from a serial cheater’s thoughts.

  • These people have too much time on their hands. Literally almost anything would be a better use all this free time than swinging/cheating. Get a hobby, exercise, double down on your current loving relationship…bake. Like, anything. I’m just sayin…if you’re an adult with plenty of time for multiple intensive romantic entanglements…you’re probably short shrifting other major parts of your life. Go babysit your grandkids and volunteer at a food shelter.

    Be of fucking service to something other than your fuck parts.

    • NotANiceChump

      YES!

      Thanks for the laugh. “Be of service to something other than your fuck parts.”

      The old saying that boredom = self-centeredness.

      Solution – Get out of yourself by doing something for others.

      Cheater Take on the Solution – Get out of yourself by getting into someone else.

      WRONG

      🙂

  • I know for certain I have a completely different personality than ‘Jessie’ but the whole arrangement seems like it would be chaotic and stressful. Trying to manage 4 other relationships along with your primary one? And the one outlier here is that you can never control the other people you’re dating. My ex told his affair partner we were in an open relationship (total lie!) and he would never leave me. Weird how that didn’t stop the OW from ‘falling in love’ and using ‘love’ to justify the total destruction of my life.

    Our society is so empty and focused on immediate pleasure, it’s just sad. And by the way, humans do need relationships to have meaningful lives. Simply talking to strangers actually makes people happier. I’m very open minded and accepting (that’s why I’m a chump) but everywhere I look it’s like we have become so focused on instant gratification and me, me, me that we fail to realize how to have meaningful relationships anymore. How about just making new friends that doesn’t involve sex? How about helping out in our communities more? I feel like these articles romanticize open relationship and make them seem so cool and easy, when in reality they really are a full time job with many risks to your emotional and physical health. And if you manage to make it work, great but dont act like it solves all the problems of a boring life.

    • “Primary” is an honorary title. Once the wheels are set in motion, whatever is required to fill the attention void become the true “primary.”

      Want proof? Ask any of these open-marriage initiators if they’d be willing to stop — seriously stop — if and when their ‘primary’ insists on it. I’ll bet a half-year’s salary the response would be a (a) a resounding “no”; (b) a plea for a renegotiation of terms; or (c) an “ok,” but the fucking around goes underground.

  • To me “open marriage” is an oxymoron. I thought the point of getting married was to be exclusive. Otherwise I would continue to date & not marry.
    No one told ME that I could keep dating while I was married. My husband did however get that memo & he hid it from me our whole marriage.
    You can’t change the rules after the match has started. That’s called cheating & cheaters lose in the end.
    I am much better off “single” with my head out of the chaos blender that was my life with a cheating spouse.
    The peace that I have now is priceless.

  • She is married now and living in her hometown of Buffalo, NY. I wonder if she and her spouse decided that monogamy mattered to them (or not).

  • Since we have already taken the train to Putridville, I will share that my then-spouse used to start marital romance by getting in bed and trying to get me to discuss having sex with other people. He tried it a jillion times over 26 years but I never played along.. my response was normally “why do you do that? I’m not interested”.

    I now believe that from the very start, his goal was cake. Reliable, respectable, fiscally responsible wife tending home and kin while he did Godknowswhat out in the world with Godknowswho.

    The skein-untangling I have done points possibly to a delusion that we had an “agreement” and that I took advantage of it (so we both cheated thereby cancelling his out. Trouble is I never cheated and there was no agreement.

    I’m now happily married to a person with whom I have a very tightly agreed upon monogamy.

  • If people who use the app believe in this crap-then why get married at all?

    Do they wish they had the hindsight before they got married so they could say, “Gosh-what if I marry him/her and then I get bored? Oh well-I’m sure with all this genius in the atmosphere-someone will develop a way to treat this boredom that doesn’t involve that icky thing called ‘Divorce.’” Because, you know, divorce is a lot of work, costs money-and is icky.

  • The Op’s (Wanna Be Swinger’s) statement makes me think of the SAT section in which you have to choose synonyms and antonyms of a given word, specifically a question like:

    What is the synonym for ‘swinging?’
    ‘Deep and loving relationships’ seems to be the antonym, not the synonym to me, so I guess that I would get this question wrong, just as I did in choosing my partners, especially my husband, now ex-husband.

    ‘Not telling neighbors, friends, and one’s own children’ that the marriage is ‘open’ (aka hiding extra-marital relationships from the public) seems dishonest (lying through omission) to the kids, at least. I never want to lie to my kids as I have seen what my ex-husband’s lying has done to my (our) kids, especially ex-husband’s relationship to our kids–they have become distrustful, perhaps to more than an optimal degree, and have at times become angry at their father for lying to them, which is reasonable. I suspect that the open marriage arrangement might lead to unintended, probably negative, consequences for the kids.

    • If you are keeping something secret and underground from everyone (including your own family), how on earth can that thing really be considered “open?” You are onto something here. This is truly Orwellian doublespeak.

  • People sure do bullshit themselves.

    Years ago when I lived in Montana my next door neighbors were swingers and I happened to get to know the wife. Oh boy howdy, did that ever turn into a cluster fuck. They were swinging with another couple and then the two women decided they liked each other and then blew up both families (with small children) and at some point they swapped from each other to the other’s husband. It was one of the most pathetic messes I’ve ever ran across and all do to ‘swinging.’ It doesn’t work folks. Once people start fucking other people, ANYTHING can happen and usually does.

  • Maybe open relationships can work. But once you lie in a primary relationship all bets are off. How do you manage to stay truthful with multiple partners and multiple tangents of possible consequences? STIs, finances, pregnancies, infatuations, other people’s reactions and/or confusion etc.
    And to the woman who claimed a relationship with a married man was not her issue and she was not beholden to the man’s wife. You are not accountable for your secondary partner’s actions. But if you take part in lying to this woman who believes her husband is monogamous you have just become a lying cheater. Anybody who knowingly lies to somebody or says or does something behind their back is a duplicitous soul. His cheating on her is not your issue but being a two faced person to her face is your issue.

  • In this context, with such lofty words as “progressive and open minded” thrown around, I’m proud to say that, “I’m not at all progressive, completely closed minded, and downright backwards, so bite me.”

    To proclaim that cheating is somehow progressive is really a form of social bullying. A way to make chumps be quiet and stay compliant spouse appliances, lest they be deemed closed minded, uptight, regressive, backward, prudes, etc, etc, etc.

    • So true! The use of the words “progressive and open minded” are often used for bullying. Funny though a few people I know that align themselves with being so “progressive” are the most closed minded individuals I have ever met. It is unfortunate some bad apples hide behind or use those words to suit their own selfish agenda.

  • CL: “I’m supposed to shop for new meaningful mates and then discard them?
    That sure seems like a winning business strategy for a guy with a dating app.”

    Chump Lady is so shrewd! Love it! I agree, it all boils down to getting people to NEED this app.

    As for “ethical” non-monogamy, I know several couples who have tried lived this way. None continue to: they either gave it up or they split.

    If our MIT guy wants to think of relationships as a kind of business, what kind of good business has it’s CEOs serving two masters?

  • Here’s the thing. If you’re the AP and your lover tells you they are in an “open marriage,” that is code for “I just want to fuck you. No way am I putting a ring on it.”

    CheaterX once told me that Schmoopie, who had visions of being a femme fatale, was being pursued by someone on the upper management team. Schmoopie was pretty open, at least to CheaterX, about her relationship status. Chumpy me thought that was just a bit of inappropriate oversharing, but it was no secret that she was available. Anyway, said upper management suggested that he and Schmoopie go out on a date, telling her that he was in an open marriage.

    Schmoopie wouldn’t bite. At that time, I was naive enough to think that this was because she didn’t want to be involved with a married man. Now I realize that she always went after married men who made more money than she did. Marriage gave her access to that money. There was no way she was going to waste her time on an affair with a man whose domestic situation wasn’t going to include divorce (assuming the guy wasn’t lying about the open marriage, which I realize is a big assumption).

  • This one cuts close. I fell for the whole swinging line as a way to save our marriage. Turned out it was just a ruse so our friends would think we had an open relationship and he would fly his other women around the country on his boys weekends and to our friends parties.

    I came across a swinging site account he’d set up for us when I did the forensics on the computer after D Day. Couple of months later after the OW he’d screwed in my bed and in hotels around the country for 3 years was caught by his other OW at his house after talking to me. I checked the site, he’d changed the name to her nom de plume and kept his (a little fantasy hangover from when he was 5 but that’s another story) and was advertising, and meeting up with incurious and bisexual guys for every thing under the sun. With her.

    This guy is an autogynophile closeted woman hating fuckwit. His sickness and depravity knows no end. Needless to say I’m happy for them, not so happy about my kids being around it but doubt he’ll stay too interested in them being around much longer anyway. Narcs never change.

  • Yeah, funny that these marriage openers like nothing more than keeping all the advantages of marriage ie someone to parent your children (and possibly you if needed), keep the house in order and the bills paid) without any of the responsibilities like loyalty and occasional boredom.

  • “Caitlin Dewey is The Washington Post’s food policy writer for Wonkblog.”

    Haha! She’s an expert on the food policy of CAKE!

  • “she was left faintly bored”

    …so she cheated on her husband. i would hate to think what she’d do if she was *really* bored.

  • Did someone mention Ray Romano’s remark about cheating? He said he would never cheat on his wife, because he doesn’t want to disappoint two women.

    Stupid, but funny.

    • It would be funny if he wasn’t making himself so central in it.
      Not cheating shouldn’t be about how it makes him look bad, but about how much it would hurt another person. The kind of person who jokes like that is actually very likely to be a cheater. He has no true moral qualms about it.

  • 31 December 2014, Traitor informs me that I am asexual (news to me!!) and that he wants to have sex with someone else but I am like a mother to his 4 sons and I am the only decent female role model his sons have ever had.
    So you want to see a prostitute?
    No, I don’t want to have meaningless sex with a stranger.
    So, you want to find a casual FWB on a dating site?
    No, I want to have sex with DS4’s mother. (The boy we have 50% of the time and I’ve been raising with him since he was 3. The woman he sees regularly for handover and with whom he’s just spent most of Christmas Day because of their son while I was alone at home)

  • Let’s both step out of the relationship! No? Didn’t think so.
    Cheaters want a monogamous partner but do not want to reciprocate and they seem to them that they are all kinds of awesome when they are just shitty shits.

    • Do these people ever grow up? My thoughts when I get up every morning aren’t “better go fuck some strange today!”. That is about the least interesting thing I can imagine. That’s what you think when you are in college, or your twenties, not when you are a grown ass woman. And if it is your priority, you should be dating, not married. Why bother. Never mind. CAKE.

      • Cake is not about linear logic. On the contrary, it’s about generating chaos in order to dominate it.
        To own a world and its very opposite (which defies logic), because then you’ve truly conquered it all (in the mind of a sociopath). The goal IS to juggle multiple, irreconcilable realities. How powerful, right?

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