Cheating Ex-Wife Dumped Her Affair Partner Husband
His cheating ex-wife just dumped her affair-partner-turned-husband. The heart didn’t want what the heart wanted… and the kids are collateral damage.
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Dear Chump Lady,
As I predicted, the ex booted him (maybe temporarily) and I am left protecting my boys from the blast, and my budding relationship.
It’s a mess and I am trying to stay as far away from it as possible. I do know she booted him because of alcoholism, gambling, debts, and verbal abuse; she picked a winner 🤣.
She is trying to save her marriage as she does not want to look like a failure again…NPD and shame, but it made her hit rock bottom and she is way easier to work with at the moment, so I’ll cautiously take it.
As time goes on, I may have my boys a lot more, which may affect my schooling and career, and that is something I am trying to process and take a day at a time. I love my boys and their mental health and stability comes first, I am their rock.
To all the chumps, you may have to deal with a situation like this… a high likelihood… but if you set yourself up, and have your ducks in a row, the blow is a lot easier to take. I will also say, stay or get back into counseling again because having to deal with something like this will bring up triggers and trauma again, and it sucks.
Josh in Montana
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Dear Josh in Montana,
It sucks, but I hope a little schadenfreude helps the medicine go down. Twu wuv went splat. The heart didn’t want what the heart wanted. Your cheating ex-wife won her alcoholic, gambling affair partner. Meanwhile, you get the boys more often and have a better life and a new girlfriend.
You win.
A lot of chumps wish they were you. Of course, I counsel here not to base your healing on what happens to couple of FWs. The Schmoopies might stay together (which is its own kind of karma) or they might nose dive. The important thing is that you’re clear of the wreckage.
Yes, her chaos impacts you and especially your kids. But not as much as if you were still married to it. Not as much as if you were modeling constant chaos to your kids. As you point out, now you’re the safe harbor for your children, the sane parent. That pays dividends. They know they can trust you to show up.
Be careful she doesn’t hoover you.
she does not want to look like a failure again…NPD and shame, but it made her hit rock bottom and she is way easier to work with at the moment, so I’ll cautiously take it.
Forgive my skepticism, but FWs are usually easier to work with when they want something. Not because they’ve had a hard dose of introspection. Be vigilant that she doesn’t draw you back into her drama, or hoover for kibbles. Gosh, don’t you want to play White Knight to her damsel in distress? Hypotenuse to her fucktangle with Drunky? If I were your girlfriend, I’d be watching this drama with great suspicion.
Focus your attention on your kids and protecting your new relationship. Your ex isn’t your problem any more, thank God. I know her behavior impacts your kids, but it sounds like you’re on top of it with therapy and more time at your home. It sucks that you cannot count on her as a coparent, but many of us solo parent and survive it.
It was never about you.
get back into counseling again because having to deal with something like this will bring up triggers and trauma again, and it sucks.
I can see how another breakup would trigger you, but take some comfort here — it was never about you. Or the kids. You didn’t fail to enchant, or have some fatal flaw that compelled her to cheat with Mr. Creep. She took her crappy character with her and made a bad investment. And now that’s biting her in the ass. I hope for your kids’ sake she learns from it and gets away from this guy. But alas, you don’t control that.
You control you, but it sounds like you’ve got a good handle on things.
CN, did your ex’s relationship with their affair partner implode? And did it factor into your parenting? Happy Tuesday.
It’s a funny thing. This June marks 10 years since DDay… 9 years since we divorced. FW has stayed with AP, I guess. But once I reached my Tuesday, I really have no idea what they are up to. The only thing that I’ve noticed is that my son spends almost every Saturday from morning to night with FW. Son just needs the ride to tournaments 60 miles away. But I think it’s so weird that FW and AP do so little together. AP is never along for the ride. Son hates AP. AP hates son. So FW also takes son on vacations or to visit his family —- all without AP. So I’m not sure “staying together” is so awesome. But also — I don’t care. As long as it doesn’t affect my son, I stay as far away from that crazy as possible.
It’s easier of course when you don’t have children with them! I’m happy to say I don’t have the faintest idea whether fucktard is still with the rat faced whore, or where either of them are. 😆
Oh, I shut the hoover attempt down. I told her she has to fix her own mess, and I am only here for the boys. And you are correct that she does want things, so I am cautious of when I have to engage with her. I also discussed this with the new gal and have reassured her that I am staying out of this mess unless it directly involves my sons. I’ll just keep on keeping on.
Josh in Montana,
It sounds like you are in a good place and doing really well for yourself and your boys ….. that said, you are right to be aware that the change to your Ex’s situation has the potential to affect you and your sons. I would simply advise you to “keep your guard up” and to look at any “gift horse” from your Ex firmly in the teeth. If she’s being nice (or compliant) it’s because she wants something or she’s setting you up.
As regards Ex-Mrs LFTT, I have no idea about the state of her relationship with the AP, although nearly 10 years out from being “busted” by our kids, she still lives with him in a poky little rental in a sh*thole village not far from where I grew up. Should their relationship implode I would work on the principle that she’s no longer my racoon and it’s absolutely not my dustbin. Thankfully our kids (who are now adults) know exactly who she is and have told me that I should never consider taking her back should her circumstances change … so I know that I would be under no pressure on that front either. And I still work on the assumption that she’s only ever “nice” when she wants something that she has no right to.
LFTT
I definitely have my guard up, and I know she is always looking to gain something.
My FW married the AP. DDay was nine years ago, they’ve been married for about six years. AP now wife has no children.
Very early on (the first time was about a week after FW moved in with her) she tried to pull up a seat at the parenting table when one of the kids (then 7 and 9) needed a minor surgery. She inserted herself in the email conversation FW and I had about it by emailing me directly with her thoughts on what should happen re child’s medical care.
She was swiftly and decisively told that her opinion had no place in any discussion about my children and not to email me again. She had not even met my children at the time.
She butted out for a while then about a year later, she tried it again. This time she did the “you need to rise above your petty grievances with me **for the children”** speech.
My response to that email is probably unprintable here.
After that she gave up.
To this day I have not had a single conversation with her about my children, who are now young adults. They have a father, he is their parent, and he is the only person entitled to input. She had no concern for my children’s wellbeing before she met them, she knew about them for nearly two years. Didn’t bother her. So she can fuck off.
i’m lucky in that the FW didn’t end up with the AP. We have kids so I can’t go full No Contact and am forever grateful to at least not have to deal with her being around my kids. What did happen is he ended up on dating apps and since we aren’t 22, he dated lots of women that were in the process of, or already fully divorced. Then he wanted to tell me what they hadto say about how we were handloing things with our divorce/co-parenting. That alone had my head exploding so yeah, I can’t imagine if the AP was trying to pull uptothe parenting table.
As someone who had a whoremat do this to my kids , that’s music to my ears- well done you.
In my experience this kind of pushiness is more about power than parenting.
The clearest example: XW – after pushing for it for years – refused to use a coparenting app unless I agreed for AP to be on it too; it was a big confrontation with a lot of grandstanding and ultimatums that lasted for more than six months until I eventually caved. We started using the app on 1/1/2023. AP logged into the app on the afternoon of 1/1/2023 … and hasn’t looked at it since. I am sure XW considers this a win, but I run across the “last viewed” record in the app logs every once in a while and when I see AP’s last-login it actually cracks me up.
There may be some gender thing going on here, though. AP (male) doesn’t seem interested in actually parenting my kids, but I know that XW has made an effort to inject herself in her step-kids’ lives. Evil-stepmother-type attempts (think “this article of clothing you bought with your mother is inappropriate; let me dramatically drop it into the trash in front of you”) that have backfired, but attempts nonetheless.
Hopefully someday gender roles will loosen enough that homewrecking women can simply be content with wrecking homes, and not feel pressure to pretend to maternal roles that they can’t pull off.
For that matter, maybe gender roles will loosen enough one day that “Karens” (in the black twitter sense of the term) will stop calling the cops on minorities for doing things like “bird watching while black.”
I’m only partly kidding. I mean there could be a correlation since I think women like the above as well as classic wicked stepmothers tend to follow the predictable pattern of “subordinate authoritarians” (or what Malcolm X called “house slaves”)– people who’ve over-adapted to playing subordinate roles within unfair hierarchies to the point they internalize it and actually pride themselves on their ability to suck up while simultaneously compensating for the way this damages self esteem by “slapping down”: lording it over anyone they perceive as inferior any little chance they get.
I say bring on the mass social experiment and let’s have gender equality just to test the theory! But I suspect that, even in a fair world, maybe fewer people would remain power-abusing creeps but some still would. Anyway, as we’re all rallying for a more egalitarian world, the accessible remedy in the meantime is to exact consequences against creeps.
Good for you! That is really mighty, she has no rights, and the audacity of her contacting you after she is the one who gleefully destroyed their family! Where was your concern for the children then Cheryl?!
With all I’ve been through, I am so incredibly suspicious of people who do crap like that. Why is she so eager to get so close to somebody’s else’s kids that she wants to be involved in medical decisions? That’s not just a person who loves kids, that’s darker than that. At best, it’s wanting to use them to manipulate. Healthy people don’t do that crap.
KP,
Yeah, what makes it the most suspicious is that if it WAS jsut that she loves the kids, she could be involved by supporting the dad and talking with JUST the dad.
Look, us chumps are not keen on AP Step Parents because the way they ended up a step parent is gross. But there are step parents in the world that didn’t get there through btrayal and who love their stepkids. If the kid was having a medical situation, those step parents would care. But they don’t have to be part of the discussion between the parents.
My FW’s non-AP girlfriend was telling him what types of controls he should have on our oldest kid’s phone. He’s already pretty overbearing with it. GF has no kids. Phone already has plenty of protections. I really didn’t care for her adding her two cents. She had only been around for a few months at that pioint, had met my kid 3 times. Stay in your lane.
Josh – Just a word of caution. Do not rely on your girlfriend to fill in the parenting gaps. Your children deserve parents who work apart/together toward a sustainable arrangement. That means a schedule which complements school schedules, a custody arrangement which is predictable.
We are both chumps and keep our lives separate right now, and date only when we do not have our children.
I agree with you entirely, but that being said, a loving stepparent can be invaluable in a child’s life. It’s up to the bioparent (the sane one that is) to determine if the stepparent is helping in the Herculean lift that is raising a child.
As time goes on, I may have my boys a lot more,
Josh, since your ex dumped her new loser husband, why would you expect to have more time with the kids? Was loser providing child care, or do you expect her to be so overcome (or busy dating) that she can’t handle the kids herself?
She may want the kids around her more, not less, if only to use them for HER emotional support or for image management.
Glad to see you shut down her hoovering. I suggest you document, in an email to yourself, every time she asks you to take the kids when she’s supposed to have them, in case you have future issues about her parenting or she asks the court for more support.
Be glad that your kids are no longer subjected to the verbally abusive, alcoholic gambler and his debts. But since, as you say, it may be temporary, make sure your kids know who to call and what to do if his verbal abuse escalates to physical abuse of the kids or your ex. The kids may have already been targets but are afraid to tell.
I don’t know how old the kids are but I think dad needs to get 100% custody and get them away from mom – as in no contact for anyone. Then they all need to go to counseling to sort out how they will move on together with the truth about mom. I’m positive she knew her fuck buddy was a drinker, gambler, but probably didn’t care to know what that all meant (huge debt) because she was “in the moment” with him. She is attracted to the shiny penny and even if she splits with the shiny penny she will not stop her own behavior. Sorry ladies but men aren’t the only ones attracted to “whores”, they just call them “bad boys”.
‘Sorry ladies but men aren’t the only ones attracted to “whores”, they just call them “bad boys”.’
Agree completely and no need to apologize. My FW was a charter member of the bad girl fan club. His AP was a charter member of the bad boys fan club. FW, being a wimpy nerd with pretensions, did not qualify, which is probably why she cheated on him with guys who did qualify.
Haha, why would you say “sorry ladies” for stating the obvious? All cheaters and witting APs of both genders pretty much qualify as hybristophiliacs– those who are attracted to a range of creeps from cheaters to liars to felons to killers– precisely because they consort with each other. Both categories are obvious flaming red flags. Social research only underscores this (high measure of psychopathy for both).
It’s one of the reasons why I think “revenge affairs” are stupid or even quasi suicidal since only a walking abortion would knowingly get involved with a still-married or committed person even if the latter were the wronged party. Helping them get resources, cheering them up, helping with kids, etc., maybe. But it’s just an axiom that no sane or healthy person would respond to the plight of a victim of domestic abuse by fucking them in the immediate wake or throes of chaos. The same warning goes for recently traumatized men– beware the “rescuers.”
I love the word hybristophiliacs to describe FWs.
I remember I first misread the word as “hybrid-twistophiliacs.” 😀
“beware the “rescuers.” ‘
Amen. More often than not, “rescuers” are people looking for an easy score. They scan the herd and find the weak (even if only temporarily) animal to chase down. Whether Chump or not, everybody needs to be their strongest self before engaging in a serious relationship.
I think you’re spot on about the “temporarily weakened” thing. When I worked in advocacy, we called it the “limping tiger” phenomenon. DV expert Lenore Walker discovered that not only was the old victim-blaming theory that all battering victims had “preexisting” psychological issues and chronic low self esteem untrue, she found that, if any skew existed, it appeared more battered women had had higher pre-abuse self esteem than average. More had careers than average as well.
What this suggests is that abusers might show a general preference for “big game” rather than easy pickings. But, like cowardly game hunters, it’s far easier to hunt down a tiger that’s temporarily incapacitated or disoriented than one at peak fitness. Gutless hunters still come away with the tiger skin rug trophy and all the bragging rights of taking down such a magnificent target.
This is on top of the fact that, because of gender inequality, entrapping women is already easier than it should be– akin to “canned hunts” of tamed and penned animals on game farms. Giving us equal pay and employment opportunities, better protections under the law and free childcare or compensation for childcare could “un-pen” and “re-fang” us. But patriarchal assholes aren’t good sportsmen.
This is me right now. I am 5.5 years from D-day, 5 years since my kids started living with the affair partner, and 3 weeks since the A.P. left the building. The revolving door continues to spin with women already showing up to replace the last one. My kids just roll their eyes as they have been exposed to who their Dad really is and that is a relief.
I met the departure of the affair partner with a combo of delight and “meh.” I never thought I would say “meh” 5 years ago. But, I have really worked hard to move on with my kids, my job and 3 years with an incredibly patient and truly loving partner.
To anyone reading this who can’t wait for this day to come, trust me, I hear you! Focus on yourself and be stable for the kids. The ex will expose themselves to your kids.…they can’t help themselves.
I read this blog every day and listen to the podcast weekly. I’m still doing the work as the grenades still come, but it does get easier.
To Chumplady and the Chumplady community, thank you for all your support these 5 years. So many strangers have been the foundation for my recovery (along with weekly therapy sessions for 4 years) and I am very very grateful! We’ve got this!
Six and a half years post DDay, I learned that Traitor Ex and his “sole mate” opened their very own illicit Asian massage parlor and escort service.
In my role as informant for law enforcement, I discovered reviews he left on websites which review AMP’s. The ads for their establishment feature images of girls with underage faces on women’s bodies.
Well, now I know where they met.
Forget about love and romance. Those two are sick mofos and God knows what is in their sexual basements.
Because he is a dunce, he left lots of identifying information in his online AMP reviews. He told the community he was driving home from a business trip, specifying all his locations, and wanted referrals for “a girl in each state.”
He was right when he said we weren’t compatible.
I spent half my life with someone I did not know at all.
Rest assured, when they leave they are taking the trash out. It took a very long time for that to sink in.
They take themselves with them wherever they go and to whomever they go to. An affair partner is just a body with a different name and different face with their own character defects. People are creatures of habit, in thought and deed, and habits are hard work to change, work that cheaters and side pieces are not into. They are both willing to accept less than mediocre choices in intimate partners.
Let them. Eventually you will be unbelievably glad you did.
First of all, grats Josh! You did indeed win!
The impression management is real with that one-“not wanting to look like a failure again.” She left a family for an alcoholic gambler. I don’t think she’s getting that stink off of her.
Of course she is easier to deal with now-she is on the ropes and has used you before. You have something she wants and already has a partial foot in the door. Do not give it to her. She lost that privilege. Lest we forget-you now have to protect YOUR children from another one of her colossal fuck-ups. Keep the grey rock up!
I like this story. It’s a great reminder of what fuckwits earn in the end-things were only good while WE took care of them!
Happy Tuesday!
Another reminder for all us chumps out there. They were never looking for someone better than you. They were looking for someone worse than them. That’s the karma that shows up.
“They were never looking for someone better than you. They were looking for someone worse than them.”
OMG! (Kleig lights pop on) That’s it! Thank you Chumpasaurus45!
Oh, the “relationship” with Schmoopy didn’t last until the divorce was final. They were on again/off again for awhile, but it was completely over pretty soon. And then he tried to Hoover me back by telling me he was “very much single.” While we were still married. Sigh. I had already figured out that life was much better without him and wasn’t having any of that noise.
After we got divorced he took up with another woman who was married, but separated. The story I got was that her husband was abusive. I dunno if it’s true. They married after her divorce. I know he cheats on her. I’m certain he’s at least as abusive to her as he was to me. None of it is my problem because the kids are all adults.
Josh in Montana, I know it all sucks right now because she is hurting your kids. It makes your life more complicated, but take every extra moment that she will give you. Kids don’t actually NEED two parents. It’s better for them to have two good parents, but as long as they have one parent or parent figure (grandparent, etc.) they can trust they will survive.
So just keep protecting your kids as much as you can from the craziness of their egg donor, and protect your new relationship from the ex. When the ex is certain that you are not an option, she will move on to greener pastures–another bad guy.
And while you’re taking every minutes she allows, she may notice that parenting is “ha-a-a-ard” and leave most of it to you. Which is good for your boys. Hard for you, but good for your boys. Just don’t have any expectations of her. Assume that she is completely unreliable and then you won’t be caught off guard.
After my divorce I realized that I had mostly been a single mom during my marriage. In fact, parenting was easier after my divorce. The ex always expected me to make all decisions and do all the things and then he would complain about the decisions and the way I did the things.
My ex-cobra just got a pricey new house with his AP-wifetress of 15+ years. Then lost his big new job that they moved 2000 miles for. Then was discovered to have 4 yr old secret love-child (they have a 12 yr old together). He’s super cruel and abusive in discard phase but she’ll never leave him so. Honestly I wish I didn’t know all this but our kids now in college just insist on passing me the gossip 🙄
I’m on the fence about gathering schadenfreude fodder regarding how relationships that began as affairs tend to gutter out. As long as the former victim is in a meh stage, not in danger of getting triggered into a pickme dance and there’s no more actual pain to shop for, it’s kind of a service to humanity and science to document rates of schmoop-explosions. And funny.
Yeah, there are so many aspects to this kind of thing. Full on No Contact, No info, and Meh is the ideal. Can’t go wrong with that. Pain shopping, seeking out info that you know will upset you in any way or engaging in more senseless battles is not a good idea for obvious reasons.
But I think there is a little bit of a gray areawhere getting that info isn’t all bad. Definitely, for scientific reasons it would be interesting to know how many Affair-Based Marriages/Relationships crash and burn, and how long that takes. Hell, I’d be interested in the WHY as well. How often did one or both start cheating in 3, 6,12, 18 months? But there are other reasoins that sometimes information about the FW once they are gone can be interesting. (Of course, that data would all be skewed because we’d be relying on lying FWs to provide the details)
Without asking, I found out through a mutual acquaintance that his current relationship with a non-AP has already had one break up/reconciliation. It didn’t upset me or trigger me. I’m not at full meh, but I’m heading in that direction. The information was a little validating in that it showed me he is still his same shitty self. I didn’t actually doubt that, but it still felt validating. He found out some info about her past dating life and had a jealous rage, and she dumped him. They are back on, so I guess he hoovered her back in. It took almost a year before he had that rage and they had that break up. Upon hearing the news, my first thought was, “yeah, that tracks” and my second one was “shit, if he is single he will have more free time to harrass me”. “Luckily” they got back together. (Not so lucky for her as I dount that is the last rage she will see)
Re actual AP? They were done before he moved out of the marital home. He says he broke it off, but I think she did. I’ll obviously never know. I have the ability to reach out to the AP. And I am aware that he is terrified of that possibility, which makes me wonder WHAT on earth he is afraid I will find out? Our divorce is on the way to final, we have a signed decree, so we ae done negotiating, our relationship is over with no chance of reconciliation, what could she possibly tell me that would matter for him NOW? So tempting to lift that rock and find out. But I recognize that it’s not a good idea. I’d be lying if I said I’ll never do it, the truth is that I know I shouldn’t and so far have managed not to, but it’s not impossible that someday I’ll give in to the curiousity. (My guess is the more time that passes the less I will wonder or care about whatever it is that she could tell me)
It’s great to hear that you’re gradually getting to “meh” territory. I think the worse and scarier the abuse, the longer the process so it’s no small feat.
Personally I don’t think it would matter if you reached out to the AP as long as she’s not armed and you were firmly in “meh.” I think the proscription against stirring the pot, sleuthing and dredging is because of the risk of being severely re-triggered and set back in recovery. It can also literally be dangerous if this makes survivors vulnerable to hoovering or if the sleuthing itself either crosses legal lines or sets off a dangerous abuser.
But if someone is genuinely beyond those risks and takes whatever they learn directly from culprits and co-conspirators with a grain of salt, it’s just data. As someone who got a lot of dirt right out of the gate, I think it can be helpful for filling in the missing pieces of our life stories which were robbed from us by lies and deception.
That wasn’t a meaningless thing for me because I’m one of those people who gets a sense of equilibrium by being clear on what happens around me or to me. It also quickly demystified the affair and added some life-saving comic relief when I learned certain details about the AP from the workplace “whistleblower” that enabled me to laugh at any of FW’s post-D-day attempts to incite me into some pickme dance competition by trying to paint the AP in ideal light. Like what contest would I be winning? Biggest desperate-drunken-disordered loser? And what prize would I win? Another desperate-drunken-disorderered loser?
FW also spilled a lot which was the only thing that made the RIC fiasco slightly worth it. I learned that the AP also wasn’t his first or even second or fiftieth choice of bangmaid. He’d just batted out with everyone else as well. They were all either of them could get lol. So much for twu wuv and it explained a lot. For instance, it contextualized some of his inexplicable tantrums that preceded the affair and inexplicable charges that I was “bad for his self esteem.” Hah. Apparently life is pretty rough on the meat market and repeat rejections were bad for his self esteem.
So that was one bit of data– that the cheating had a lot to do with proving to himself he could because… waning ego of the aging narc and all that. His first line picks were all younger clones of me and totally out of his reach and unapproachable– haha. I’m sure that illustrated something highly unpleasant for him which is that, in his current state, he couldn’t even get me as I was when he met me nor even ten or fifteen years later. So he went down a descending list of office barflies and, the grosser and tackier they became, the bigger the blow to his ego when they rejected him as well. I imagine that, just like every idiot trying to follow the PUA program, the more he failed, the more his rage and desperation surged to the point he was probably stricken with gratitude to have any takers at all by the time “Dumpy the Eighth Dwarf” came along with her thinning hair, cystic acne scars, cheesy tatts and ear-splitting gerbil voice.
The confession about failed attempts seemed pretty believable because it’s probably uncharacteristic of narcissists to admit something so unflattering. Plus he passed the routine polygraph recommended by CSAT and RIC practitioners, at least on the question of whether this was his one and only pathetic “score.” But you’re generally right that any data gotten directly from creeps would be skewed. Typically you would hardly rely on a disordered abuser to get the full picture of their abuse or long term relationship outcomes because they lie, image manage, “split” and blameshift. This is why research on domestic batterers in prison settings typically uses victims’ testimony from criminal proceedings to measure the degree to which abusers lie and distort reality and also study why they lie and distort.
I’m striving for Meh. Not easy as I can’t go no contact because of the kids.
And almost every interaction still leaves me shaken up. I don’t engage with his BS, very grey rock outwardly. But dealing with him still brings a very visceral reaction in my body. It’s kind of interesting, my brain will be saying “hey, it’s just a text, you are ok, nothing bad is going to happen to you”, and my brain fully accepts this as fact. But my hands are sweating, heart is racing and stomach is turned inside out. I suspect that this won’t stop until both kids are 18 and I can be fully no contact.
Recently he came by to pick some stuff up that he needed. I left it in the driveway, and I went to get a coffee when I knew he was coming because I didn’t want to be home. He’s had to pick up or drop off things before. It has never been a problem, he comes and goes quickly, only enters the yard and doesn’t bother me. Yet I sit in a room away from windows and shake until he’s gone. His abuse was never physical, but my body responds to his presence as if I am in fear for my life.
Anyway, I have security cameras that he is unaware of.
I was watching the live feed from a local coffee shop. Waiting for him to leave so I could return home. I found that even from a few miles away, I STILL got all shakey. Imagine my horror when he entered my enclosed porch, and started looking for the hidden spare key. I watched him mess with a window trying to get in and look a few places forthe key, then I realized I was watching a live feed and that it was not recording. I started to record and while the footage I have is not as damning as it would have been if Igot everything, it is still very obvious that he is looking for a key.
I could have called the police. Hell, I could have hit a button and sounded an alarm, or hit the microphone and told him to leave. But I didn’t want to show my hand. The factr that there are cameras that he is unaware of is a good thing.
He did give up. Had he gotten close to the key or kept looking, I probably would have called the cops. But it didn’t come to that. He was also swearing and yellng a bit. He left, and immediatley left a voice mail that was as calm as a cucumber saying that he doesn’t understand why I won’t talk to him. It was actually rather chilling how big of a change in demeanor he had. He went from swearing and saying “she’s an idiotic, fuck her” while looking for a key to break into my home to a calm wronged victim in 30 seconds flat.
Good God, how harrowing. Now you know to get it recorded every time because he’ll certainly try this again. I hope you also have cameras inside the house for if he ever gets in, especially when you’re there.
I understand your hesitation to tip your hand until the moment you can really swat the wasp, not just wave a newspaper at it. But I hope you don’t pull that punch when the time comes. This guy clearly needs consequences to disrupt the way he’s winding himself up into aggression towards you.
This is especially true because I think that lightning fast switcheroo is the mark of a really dangerous individual. It’s no wonder your ancient autonomic risk management accountant (imagine a humorless, balding little dude with a little adding machine, tinted visor, pocket protector and horn rims) is zapping your nervous system with “Danger, Danger, Red Alert” signals.
Mr. Risky Bean Counter only sends those physical signals when there’s any actual risk of violence based on a million ephemeral cues, some of which you probably aren’t even consciously registering but all of which probably go back to our monkey days when the specter of a sexually thwarted alpha guaranteed a shitstorm was a-brewing. Mr. Risky Bean Counter doesn’t even care if your ex is deliberately sending danger cues he doesn’t consciously intend to act on just to keep you off balance. In fact, you could say Mr. Risky Bean Counter doesn’t give a fuck about what anyone thinks they intend precisely because conscious intent means very little in our species, just capacity. For instance, two seconds before a beta ape violently takes down the alpha in the latter’s sudden moment of weakness, the beta might have felt fully subservient and in thrall to the alpha and had no clue what they themselves were going to do next. Basically I think this ancient faculty knows that abusers are the closest thing to apes possible without actually shitting in trees and, because of this, can be autonomically triggered into ape behavior simply by opportunity. Intent schmintent.
In any case, I saw the “switcheroo” when I was assaulted by a workplace stalker who, by the way, also broke into my home. After seemingly being “out of control” with “blind rage” that I was fighting back and screaming for neighbors to help, the psycho’s behavior instantly went stone calm at the sound of approaching sirens. The first three steps he took towards door to be the first to “greet” police were perfectly normal but he quite suddenly developed a severe “limp” for the last four steps before opening the door. Then he sort of did this campy, over-the-top hobbling around while the police entered.
Being the one to open the door and greet police was also perfectly calculated and initially led police to treat the situation like a “domestic” and thereby avoid the breaking and entering charge.
Even though I thought the hobbling routine was very bad acting, it was still alarming because I wasn’t sure at first how police would respond. Later during the trial I described the whole limping charade as a reverse of the famous scene in The Usual Suspects when Kaiser Soze abruptly “loses” his limp while walking. Me and my weird analogies. I blurted this and realized it would probably go over everyone’s heads but, by the way some members of the jury nodded, it seems many knew the film and got what I meant.
Apparently the police who came to the scene didn’t buy the hobbling act either. When one fatherly cop took me to an anteroom to see if I needed an ambulance and to interview me, I heard the perp try to tell the police I’d kicked him in the balls at which point the three giant cops who’d formed a circle around him roared with really sadistic-sounding laughter.
When I looked startled by the laughter, the officer with me said, “I think we all know what’s going on here.” Then I understood why the cops laughed in that brutal way– it was clearly a sort of flex to demonstrate to the perp that if he requested dual arrest (which, by law, police had to ask him), things weren’t going to go well for him. So, as urged, the psycho declined to have me arrested and was taken away in cuffs. Maybe the cops had seen The Usual Suspects as well.
Later when I trained as an advocate, I heard similar stories from a lot of survivors. The presto-chango from rage to calm and calm to rage is a “thing” with violent disordered people. This was backed up by recent research cited by Dr. Emma Katz that abusers quite consciously decide to “lose” control to facilitate taking control. By that token, it makes sense that the same people could “regain” control of themselves just as easily. Earlier studies had found that the heart rates of some assaultive men didn’t even rise while they were in the throes of apparent uncontrollable rage.
I think I mentioned the following to you before: Because of the fact that many abusers would “regain control” in front of police and then make counterclaims of assault towards victims (like in the Gabby Petito case), the service I worked for would advise that, if survivors were ever again assaulted by abusers and police came to the scene, survivors should lie or sit very still, say they can’t walk on their own and request an ambulance in order to discourage police from enacting dual arrest. A consulting MD felt this was perfectly justifiable from a medical standpoint because shock can camouflage the pain from severe injury for 12 to 36 hours and the physical strain of being perp walked in cuffs and being bumped around on the hard plastic seat in the back of a cruiser could make things much worse.
When I was assaulted, it would never have occurred to me to milk injuries the way the perp did, partly because I’m not a cluster B freak and partly because I couldn’t feel a thing. The cop who interviewed me even warned me that this was simply shock and I would wake up the next day in a world of pain and urged me to request an ambulance. He was right– turned out I had a black eye, cracked ribs, dislocated knee and permanent hearing loss in one ear. But it could have been much worse if I’d been stuffed in a cruiser and thrown into the brig. It was simply dumb luck that the police called to the scene in my case had heavy training for DV and sexual assault and also used gesture warfare to discourage the perp from calling for dual arrest. Many others aren’t as lucky.
Stay safe!
My therapist found the “switcheroo” troubling as well. I mean, that is not surprising. It IS troubling.
She was saying that disordered people and the way they behave is a spectrum. She gave two examples from her practice.
One person is a client and when she comes in, therapist has to really dissect conversations she relays to her. Like ask “when you said xyz to your husband,what were you intending to communicate to them?” And they will say “oh, I was trying to show him that I was being supportive”. Therapist then points out, well that really isn’t what you actually said, you said that they were too stupid to possibly get that task done correctly. Your words did not match your intent.” And this client apparently truly struggles to see their own behaviour. (It sounds like they are trying to get help though..so good on them)
Another example was a client who has an abusive husband. The man studied the DSM Guide so that he could believably portray himself as being bipolar, so as to have an “excuse” for his abusive behavior and discourage the client from leaving.
Based on the quick switheroo, and other things she has been told, she sees the FW as being more on the latter end of the spectrum, full on active manpulation. . Though she is quick to point out that she can’t truly diagnose him. But for example, I don’t know that he would be given an official diagnoss of being a narcissist, and I hate how overused the word is, but regardless, he certainly has some of those traits. And it can be helpful for me to understand how a narc thinks.
I don’t have cameras in the house. I have been considering them though…after this experence you are not the first one to mention them. And I absolutely will call the police if needed, and won’t hesitate. Actually when this incident happened, I definitely considered calling them them, but as I wasn’t home and hence, not in immedate danger, I didn’t. Had he gotten closer to getting in? I would have.
Obviously, he could escalate at any moment and I keep that in mind. But in this instance? Had I been home? I don’t think he would have done that. He kept looking towards the drive, as if making sure I hadn’t returned home. I think he saw this as a possible opportunity to snoop? And that paired with the frustration of being forced to pick up items from the driveway vs being allowed into the home we used to share? That was the combo that blew this up I think.
Had I been home and he tried to get in, I’d call the police so fast his head would spin. Iwas terrified just watching from miles away. Had I been there? I would have a heart attack.
I’m also a bit leery of the whole narcissism craze. In an era when the pharmaceutical industry engages in routine disease mongering to sell– cart before horse style– drugs by expanding definitions, turning risk factors into actual diseases, medicalizing non-diseases and even inventing disorders because they discovered some chemical compound that has vague effects on a certain part of the body– narcissism seemed to reek of the same kind of market branding.
I also think there’s a sort of turf war going on between regular psychology and forensic psychology. If certain behaviors are correlated with criminal conduct and defined firmly as criminal disorders, no one’s going to voluntarily sign up to be diagnosed with these things or treated for them. It could potentially affect the bottom line for therapists in private practice who’ve made some trendy diagnosis or other their particular wheelhouse and rely on the viral splashiness to promote their practices, books, etc.
I also think branding abusive behavior as “symptoms” of some disorder can be a cheap way for pop psych gurus to avoid seeming political– i.e., (oh noes!) “feminist”– because of the statistically gendered ramifications of abuse. Considering the escalating war on women’s and victims’ rights in the US, I think this is disgusting cowardice.
Then there’s the problem of the “psychiatric inquisition” where everyone armchair diagnoses everyone they don’t like or anyone who gets in their way as a “narc.” Maybe part of what makes me a bit circumspect is that the first time I ever heard the term used in a diagnostic sense was after moving from the urban jungle to a seaside suburb and the ex wife of a psychologist spread rumors among the local burb-moms that I was a narcissist. Why? Because she asked what I’d done for a living prior to being a SAHM. I told her and then added a conspiratorial aside that the real reason I didn’t work in the industry anymore was because of the plethora of pervs and rampant sexual harassment.
That’s how I learned that, in the provinces, claims of having been subjected to harassment are seen as “humble-bragging.” Because sexual harassment, stalking and assault are so fun and flattering lol. I learned to keep my “fun and flattering” adventures to myself after that which was probably psychically isolating.
Maybe because of this social isolation and resulting self-doubt, I later took one more shot and went back to work in the same industry when the kids were small and–D’OH, wouldn’t you know it– the company founder harassed me. But of course I couldn’t tell anyone local because… “humble bragging.” The only secret consolation I got after that was that, after I quit and the #MeToo movement hit, the creep ended up in global headlines for having raped about a dozen teenage interns and young female employees over the course of twenty years.
When I first started working for the company and several years before the headlines, a few people whispered that the boss was “kind of narcissistic.” In retrospect it completely enrages me that the diagnostic term was used like a euphemistic pressure valve for bad conscience so that these people could pretend to themselves that they hadn’t really “failed to warn” about what they knew this guy really was– a VIOLENT SERIAL RAPIST.
Anyway, I think that’s part of the problem of “medicalizing” or “psychiatrizing” what is actually categorically criminal behavior. I think there’s a value to naming disorders related to criminal conduct if just to understand what abusers will do next in order to protect victims or how to prevent the formation of these syndromes by protecting abused children from the horrors that turn them into future abusers. But what should lead in these analyses is the criminality first and foremost and all implied risks to potential victims. Which are– on the darker ends of the spectrum– rape, injury, general mayhem, death.
Clearly I have a few bones to pick with the whole narc spectrum trend. I sometimes use related terms because they’re recognizable to a lot of people and it saves time and verbiage but I have a lot of side notes and reservations.
I actually love the gossip but these days (4.5 years from D-Day) nobody gives me any. Everybody is over the drama.
Covert serial FW of 40 years tied the knot with the Married Howorker 7 years ago and by all accounts, they seem to be doing great, living an upper crust 1% lifestyle thanks to a huge divorce settlement from her own chumpy lawyer ex-husband. I’ve been NC for years so have no personal knowledge; any dribbles of intel I get seep through unsolicited from our 3 grown sons…a $1 million McMansion, a fleet of luxury cars, a boat moored in the marina, transatlantic cruises, fancy designer duds (hey, where is the barf bag?). FW would be a complete idiot to blow up that arrangement, but even if he wanted to, I suspect he wouldn’t because his public image is everything; he’d never want to be seen as the common denominator for TWO failed marriages and it’s super important that he maintains the narrative that I’m the one to blame. As long as he’s with Married Howorker, he’s orbiting in someone else’s solar system and I get to enjoy my peace. Peace cannot be overrated.
That would be *3* failed marriages if the ho-worker was already married and they blew this one , right? It’s like that NBC TV couple, they’re stuck with each other, yay twu-wuv😂,
I was counting FW’s marriage to me and his marriage to Married Howorker, for a total of 2. But if we also count her side of the equation (failed marriage to her chumpy attorney husband and another to my FW), I guess that would be 3! Thanks for correcting my math!
Hi Chumps,
I’m sorry if this is hijacking today’s post, but I need to vent.
Some of you know my story- walked away from 35 years of marriage to Pennywise after he was caught cheating and lost his job for watching porn at work.
As soon as I left him and returned to my home state, he moved his whore into my house.
That was two years ago this month. I filed for divorce six months ago, and he has been making it difficult, living in our fully paid for house with his true love, while I struggle along financially and cope with the pain of our adult children, who he rarely speaks to.
Today I find out that he is refusing to sell the house or agree to a divorce unless I pay him alimony. He wants fucking alimony. After losing his job, humiliating his wife, devastating his children and taking everything he possibly could from me, including my self worth, he now wants MORE.
I am beside myself with rage and just want to see him dead.
Just needed to vent that out!!
What does your lawyer say? That is the important part.
I know alimony rules vary state by state, and can be different couple by couple depending on circumstances. He can SAY he wants alimony, but does your attorney think he has a case to actually receive it? FWs can ask for anything, doesn’t mean legally they are likely to get it.
Our agreement leaves me in the house for 5 years until my youngest is 18. I’ll pay mortgage etc. Then we sell and split profit later. Or if I want to stay, I can buy him out if I am able. Current rates prohibit me from being able to do that now.
He wanted a clause that if I started DATING, I’d have to get out of the house early. There IS somewhat of a legal precedence for this. People in this situation sometimes have a clause that if the person in the house couples up and gets marrried or moves a new partner in, that they need to let their ex out of their legal attachment to the house. This makes sense. But just DATING? It was his way of trying to legally block me from dating. Because if he had his way, I’d have to choose between my home or going on a date.
In the meantine, this man had a years long affair that ended when he moved out, so then he was on the apps dating like it was his job, then by the time the divorce process started he had found his new gf and acknowledged that it was very serious. But he wanted to legally block me from dating.
Spoiler alert- I was not then and am STILL not now interested in dating at all. I may never date. I may die single…happily. But I still wasn’t letting that prick get that clause. The audacity with these FWs is endless.
Get that asshole- he deserves no such thing!
I understand the death wish but he’s more use to you alive than dead at this point.
He will escape all consequences if he dies but all will come back to him if he lives.
I understand and know too well this story- I hope your lawyer knows how to deal with dregs like him.
I know- we just want it OVER and for them to just get to fuck and go the fuck away- after giving us what we are owed of course.
They wanted this- not us but they still won’t cough up and bugger off.
Deadshit cowards the lot of them.
Welcome to the Divorce process year(s )shockers and first let me say how sorry I am for the mounting injustices and you going through the meat grinder over and over again.
Each attack via lawyers makes you feel like going into a homicidal rage. It is horrible time, no comparison. Please note how this helps that bond Shred between you, IF there ever was one. Mostly, these cheater abusers cannot love, they can USE you forever and a day,but it is not love. So buckle your seat belt as more indignities will follow. You have a lawyer right? Just let them do for you. Please be No contact and let your legal team answer each demand. Let it unfold and let them work for you. These creeps will ask for your uterus and finger nail clippings. Don’t give in to their chaos..hold tight to your lawyers answers and never talk directly to this person. It will really mess you up. I did go into mediation but we were in separate rooms..anyway, best wishes and CL+CN stand with you. It will all work out
The bastard. Talk to your lawyer about the house. FW doesn’t have the right to prevent a sale and it sounds like he can’t afford a legal battle. If he wants alimony he can damn well take you to court for it, which it seems he can’t afford to do. Stupid fucker. He can’t stop you from divorcing him so if he won’t come to terms he’ll have to take his chances. What do you think his odds of getting court ordered alimony are?
My lawyer says probably nil, and I will NEVER agree to pay this asshole one dime in alimony. He has taken enough from me, he’s not getting any more.
I just with all my heart want this to be OVER. I am tired of hurting. I want him out of my life.
I keep reminding myself that no matter what happens, I win. I have what matters. I have my three kids, and my oldest son is expecting his first child in June!! And I will be here for it, my granddaughter will know her grandma, and know how much she is loved.
Pennywise told son that he’ll come visit when the baby is born. Maybe. If he can find someone to feed the dog. Fucking miserable jerk, I hate him.
So today has been a hard day- thanks for being here CN!!!
“I just with all my heart want this to be OVER. I am tired of hurting. I want him out of my life.”
Ok, Maggie, I hear you. Oh good lord do I hear you. But I’m going to give you a pep talk my therapist gave me when I was in a similar place. Now is the time to put on your armor and stand your ground. I know you are tired and so over it and you just want it done. But hold on just a little longer.
Once your divorce is final, you will almost never have to deal with him. Once all your kids are grown, it really will be SO minimal. Do not let your exhaustion get the better of you and cause you to end up with a less than fair settlement.
It’s ridiculous that he is asking for alimony. It’s unfair. It’s infuriating. I get it. But I see that your attorney says his chances are nil. So now is the time to stand up and fight this last battle. One thing I see a lot of is chumps that just want out, and they agree to stuff and then later when they are out, and they aren’t so tired and are at meh..they realize “shit, I shouldn’t have agreed to xyz”. Don’t fall prey to that.
It’s one thing to be reasonable and just want a quick and fair end. Fighting over a bunch of siilliness for years is poitless and counterproductive. But fair is the keyword. You paying alimony is NOT fair. Fight that one. He’s throwing shit at you hoping you’ll agree to something bananas just to be rid of him. Stand firm.
Thanks so much for your kind words- I really need it today. For some reason, this latest stunt has just taken all my mighty away. I was doing so well, and then this. I also found out that he’s not even living in our marital home, he just bought a new one ten minutes away from the one we own together ( his mother gave him the down payment). So my house is just sitting empty, he’s just refusing to agree to sell so he can hopefully goad me into alimony.
I’m sitting in my car right now on my lunch hour, just crying my eyes out. It hurts that he’s just so fucking cruel, and he has skipped off into a happy life with his whore, leaving me to deal with the wreckage.
But I will rally, there’s no way I’m gonna to give him alimony.
“I was doing so well, and then this. ”
That can happen. Don’t let it discourage you. Cry, then move forward.
I was doing great and then he sent me a dickish text, which is par for the course with him, I’ve been dealing with that since he moved out, so I’m pretty used to it and most of the time it doesn’t get to me. But that time, it did get to me. And I had this realization that until my kids were all 18, I was never going to be able tofully escape his crap. And much like you said, he is the one that ended this marriage with an affair, why is he so mad at ME? So after doing so well, I found myself just bawling and feeling so hopeless. But it passed and I am back to doing pretty well again. It was a little blip in my progress, but it wasn’t a big deal.
It’s so trite to be like “keep going” but honestly that is all we can do. And eventually we do get to Tuesday and Meh, and it’s over.
Congratulations Grandma xx
You’ll love this- my first grandchild was born in October and he really does so much to heal me.
They need to stay away from OUR babies- they don’t deserve such a precious gift.
Hugs, write back next year.. you’ll be helping others
As OHFFS says, rely on your lawyer. Whatever the equity in the house is, he owes you half. And I’m guessing that with 35 years of co-accumulating whatever wealth you both have he owes you a lot more than that. Find a pit-bull lawyer. Idk where you live, but my state had excellent terms and I had to repeatedly remind my FW that he did not dictate the terms of the Marital Settlement Agreement. There were laws in place and judges to slap him around with if he thought he was going to get away with his latest skim, scam, or scheme. Good luck and remember yourself to your FW with “Bitch, I am the storm.”
I’m divorcing him in NY, my home state, he is in NC, where he insisted we move for a “fresh start”- turns out the whole thing was a setup, he had Schmoopie waiting in the wings.
By the time I left, I was honestly in fear for my safety and my mental health was already shot. I kept trying to tell myself that I was being dramatic, that I watch too much Dateline, and all the rest of it. Turns out I should have listened to my gut way earlier, it was spot on.
That’s really what I want to impress on all the new chumps out there- listen to your gut!!! I would have saved myself so many wasted years if I had!!
Tracy’s advice not to base your happiness or healing on hoping something bad happens to the FW is very sound advice. The little kick that you get doesn’t last long, and it doesn’t change what they did, how they treated you, and how they’ll behave in the future.
In my case, I found out last year that my ex had broke up with the guy she in a relationship after we separated (not the AP). I didn’t know much about him, but I was told by mutual friends that he was a good guy, stable, financially sound, but she still broke up with him, after about 3 years together. I enjoyed some Schadenfreude when I heard, but it didn’t last, as I figure she’ll just move on to the next unfortunate victim, and wishing misery on her wasn’t doing me any good.
So, it’s always best to focus on what you have control of, which is your children, and making sure you don’t get sucked into her mess. In the end, they never change and it’s best to remember that.
It absolutely baffles me how #2 cheater- abuser stated how much he hated confrontation, arguments, tension and chaos. He told me he was too anxious and I believed he could not lie because he was so transparent with all his emotions. He had to take anti anxiety meds if anything happened outside the ordinary. Yet this same person had a basement full of secrets and just before D day told me he was surprised with” all that was going in” he had not needed to take his calming meds!! This was during the years he was going to massages,
having EAs and made co worker arrangements. This man who said he hated chaos actually thrived on it behind the curtain. What is that?
My FW XW and her original AP (her fucking boss. Can you cliche?🤣) got married, what, two, three years ago? I’m not actually remembering when, exactly. God, I love the beginnings of meh!😂
They’re still together, but then, he’s a multi-millionaire (pretty damn sure), so the whore-slut XW is still stuck to him, sucking up as much of his wealth as he’s willing to give (he is a cheap bastard though. Ask me how I know!😜).
However, because dad (me) was in an ugly, run-down house that mom (the FW XW) basically forced us into downsizing into to satisfy her need to stay in a local, political seat of power in our now new, small city, my younger daughter and eventually my son ended up living with them, approximately an eighth to a quarter of a mile behind my shitty house. Did I mention the FW XW and AP are in a newish condo, with all the amenities that dad can’t afford?
Two Christmas’ ago, I was told (unasked for), that none of my kids like mom’s AP, now “husband .”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: it’s laughable to me that people who couldn’t handle being married/spouses previously with honor try to act like they deserve the appellations of matrimony again, without some real personal growth shown.
What personal growth have they shown? Damned that I’ve seen any. Hence, my putting husband in quotations. I don’t think either one of them deserves titles by marriage, as they’re a joke. My opinion, of course.
Anyway, my younger daughter, who lived with them through most of her tumultuous college years, I gather won’t see the AP, if at all possible. As in, if her mother comes to visit her, she only wants her mother to come; not her AP.
God only knows how the FW XW and her AP get along together now. And that’s the way I’m trying to keep it.😁
To Josh in Montana, I’m slightly jealous of your FW XW and her AP’s gift of schadenfreude to you, but that’s about it. I’m glad for you, as she proved she can’t pick ‘em (and abandoned you, the better man).
And I hope you can navigate this episode of your life connected with a fuckwit (two, really) with grace. You certainly deserve to. I also really hope your kids can navigate this with grace, too. With a good dad like you, I’m sure they will. Good luck, brother.😊
I had refused a quickie divorce sans attorneys upon discard. A couple of months or so after FW left me, he admitted to the affair partner that the whole time they had been making plans to buy a house and get married he had a whole-ass wife of 20 years and 7 kids under the age of 14 at home. Even though FW explained his reasons for pretending we did not exist, the affair partner threw him out on his rear end. Who knew such blatant dishonesty would crush a budding romance?
Awful! My goodness they suck. Hope you still divorce him, coz that’s actually insane.