Dear Chump Lady, She changed him

Dear Chump Lady,

I want to first say that I am SERIOUSLY thankful for your blog. I found it a little too late, and pick-me danced too long, but once I found it, I suddenly found the courage to stay strong and give up on the ‘perfect family’ dream. When I found you, it was because I was 100% an Amazon chump and was searching for answers.

I often read your pages asking myself ‘can there REALLY be THIS many narcissists out there?’. I have never even used that word until my husband lost his mind last year. I first diagnosed him (thanks to my chump research) with a mid-life crisis, and I followed all of the advice for such. I even told my college age children that we were going to ‘love him through it’. We tried so hard. It didn’t work.

Then, I diagnosed him as bipolar. I dragged him to a two marriage counselors AND a psychiatrist. It didn’t work.

Then, I found your blog and realized that OMG, he fits narcissist to a TEE. I stopped my pick-me dance and cried in my pillow every night wondering where he could be. I am doing much better now because I am a few months in, BUT……this week, I had a new Amazon chump thought.

My situation is the same as everyone else’s, but in every way it could be bad and go wrong — it did. After a 23 year marriage and wonderful family memories, my husband began a secret life with a 6-foot blonde tramp with fake boobs who is 15 years younger than us. She has two small children and works for the same company he does.

As they were playing house, I was battling breast cancer — I had chemo, radiation — the whole gambit. They were KIND enough to wait until my treatments were over to announce their love and wreck my life, but I fought. I pushed her away as many times as I could, but then he waited until I was on a girl’s beach trip to call me and let me know he would be gone when I returned home.

WHAT happened to this guy?!?!?! WHO calls their wife like that and RUINS her girls ‘finally breast cancer free’ trip like that?? THIS person is NOT who my husband was??? He was a nice, normal guy and I never felt unloved. He was selfish with his time, but he took care of us in every way. It blindsided me and the pain was almost unbearable.

I have now read all of the archives that pertain to my situation, and even though you say that it doesn’t matter what flavor the cake is — it’s STILL CAKE (best advice ever BTW), I can’t help but bring a new flavor to your attention….. STOCKHOLM SYNDROME. Seriously. He has lost his friends, lost most of his family, lost the respect of his children, lost his job, walked away from his home…..all for this girl???

This girl was AGGRESSIVE in every way. She set her sights on the life she wanted, and went for him relentlessly. He was a dumbass and gave in, but I SWEAR, she has brainwashed him. She is like a CULT leader and she always found her way back in. I SWEAR I am not defending him. I do NOT want him back. The things he has done to me over the last year are the meanest things anyone has ever done to me. I am one signature away from a final divorce. I am just putting it out there that some of these home wreckers are evil poachers with serious skills. My husband died the day he met her, and someone new is walking around in his body. My job is now to stay off Dateline.

Please make sense of this and tell me you think he’s been kidnapped and now suffers from Stockholm Syndrome so that I can sleep at night and not obsess over the nightmare ending to my marriage.

Much love to YOU and my fellow chumps. You have SAVED MY LIFE!

neversawitcoming33

Dear Neversawitcoming33,

He’s not brainwashed, he’s an asshole. He chose this. If he’s in a cult, it’s the Cult of Stupid.

You’ve really been through hell, and it’s normal to untangle the Skein of Fuckupedness, but you must stop diagnosing him. It’s not helping.

If we go with your Devil Made Him Do It defense, then if we remove the Devil — what next? You think he’s all better? Reformed? You want him back?

No, he’s still a man who could cheat and abandon his wife during her cancer.

If diagnosing him as a narcissist (not a leap, he’s behaving narcissistically) helps you leave him and get yourself to safety, okay. But as I say here often, what kind of fucked up it is doesn’t matter. HE IS FUCKED UP. This behavior (cheating, abandonment, cruelty) is either okay with you, or it’s not.

By giving the Other Woman all the power in this narrative, you are defending him. You’re taking a last toke on the hopium pipe — This Isn’t the Real Him. You didn’t invest in a fraud, a bad, bad woman corrupted him.

Don’t get me wrong, she’s an asshole too (stay cancer free, Sparkletwat!) — but she doesn’t have super powers of seduction. He chose to do this. And his volition in the matter is way more painful than thinking he suffers under an evil spell.

He’s not like you. You may share history, but you don’t share values.

How do I know? He’s afflicted with stupidity and look what you did — you threw yourself at saving him. You stood by him. You suffered.

Did he stand by you as you suffered? No. He looked for an escape hatch. He doesn’t love the way you love.

Maybe he loved okay for awhile. You know, like one of those friends you can go to movies with, but are nowhere to be found when life sucker punches you with cancer or divorce. They flit at the superficial level, but they don’t do substance. That’s fine if you need a movie date. It’s not fine when you need a life partner.

You had a movie date husband. He wasn’t tested. There are show-up people and there are cowards. And I’m sorry to be so blunt about it, but you invested deeply in a coward. It happens.

I just ran this scenario past Mr. CL.

“Okay, let’s say I have breast cancer and I lose all my hair and boobs and some tall young blonde with big tits throws herself at you at work. Would you cheat?”

(Totally not a fair question. I’m perfectly healthy and could throw a mean punch. Answer at your peril.)

He says, “I could never do that. And if you got sick, I would never leave you. I’m a Catholic. Life is suffering. It’s the deepest expression of love to take care of someone when they’re suffering. I would want to be there for you.”

(This then devolved in a discussion of how his mother cared for his father who just died, to the point of noble insane sacrifice — she’s a nurse AND a Catholic. Whereas the preferred mode of death in my family is to retire to south Florida, hire Cuban caregivers, and shoo your family away as a point of honor. We agreed a middle path would be best.)

Speaking of Good Catholic Men, we just lost one. I learned yesterday that an old co-worker of mine, a devoted husband and father of three took his kids to the pool last week, and had an aneurysm. He suffered severe brain damage, held on for a few days, and passed away, surrounded by his family.

He was a good man and I am certain between all the prayer requests and MRI updates and convulsing grief, his wife wasn’t cruising for boyfriends.

Because that would be obscene.

Anyone who loves deeply could not hurt you this way. What you suffered was an obscenity. That’s my diagnosis. Think of him as a cancer and cut him out. Save yourself.

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VulcanChump
VulcanChump
4 years ago

“Because that would be obscene” – I feel like that summarizes this while scenario perfectly. Some acts are so far out of the range of decency that even if the Devil is involved, the human actor must still be either completely reconciled to God or shunned.

Madge
Madge
4 years ago
Reply to  VulcanChump

Or completely reconciled to God and still shunned because the scars are too deep.

I left Horace. He went straight into a Found God, Found The Twelve Steps phase. He has had these phases before. They have been brief and followed by a return to his previous behavior. After the decades of lies, I will never again be able to believe anything he says. I’ve also realized I should have left long before his previous FGFTTS phase, because CPTSD doesn’t settle down when you are living with the person who hurt you. If he seemed to become exactly what I wanted, I still wouldn’t be able to trust him.

jojobee
jojobee
4 years ago
Reply to  Madge

Yep. Because even if their change WERE permanent, you would have no way to verify a change to someone’s internal heart and soul–so you would always be hypervigilante. Their change might be permanent under such conditions–but so would your PTSD.

ANewWoman
ANewWoman
4 years ago

I can relate to your story, neversawitcoming33. We had a happy, normal family and the OW’s was a trainwreck with an abusive husband. I very much felt that she “stole” my husband but at the end of the day, it really doesn’t matter since he allowed it. Of all the “better” and “worse” forms of awful, yeah, maybe she’s slightly worse but they’re both awful. Sex is a powerful drug and makes people crazy, but getting from here all the way to there is on him as much as her. I wish you a happy, cancer-free and asshole-free life!

dandoopy
dandoopy
4 years ago
Reply to  ANewWoman

Neversawitcoming33, same thing with my husband. We were married 17 years, 2 children…he became so mean. He used to be the nicest man on earth. The influence of his AP, who is also his employee, 20 years his junior, immigrant from central america, she has had a horrible effect on his personality. It’s almost like he’s possessed. She got him with sex. For some people, they are motivated by sex, especially new sex. I dont understand it.

TheShamHasEnded
TheShamHasEnded
4 years ago
Reply to  ANewWoman

The movie French Kiss with Meg Ryan and Kevin Kline comes to mind when I think about the idea of the homewrecker that swoops in and ruins our seemingly happy marriages. There’s a scene where Kate (Meg Ryan) has pick-me danced her way across the Atlantic Ocean and France to get her fiancé back and finally confronts him and Juliette, the “goddess” took him.

Kate: Let me take a good look at the woman who stole my Charlie’s little heart.

Juliette: I did not steal anything that didn’t want to be stolen.

That little exchange sums it all up to me. The OW/OM was able to “steal” them because they were open to being “stolen”. No boundaries. No deep commitment. No concern for anyone but themselves.

MrsVain
MrsVain
4 years ago
Reply to  ANewWoman

Same for me. Wasband was … IS weak. I thought he would never cheat because he would never make the first move. Turns out he didn’t need to. The troll he left me for did it for him. She saw my life and my house and yard and errorously believed (or was led to believe) that he provided all it for me. She pursued wasband super aggressively. She sank her claws in his back and never let go. She is a professional homewrecker. Ours was not the first, second or third marriage she wrecked. She knows all the tricks and was one step ahead of me at all times. She made sure he never talked to me without or alone. She kept him busy and focused on her, so he never looked back. She pretended to love and care about his boys even thou she never met them and had 4 kids of her own she abandoned. She was stuck to his side like glue (ride or die). And she is good at twisting everything I said to him. .. . .. I call her a demon. She is the most hateful evil self centered person I ever met.. .. .. she clearly manipulated and was controlling him from day one.. .. .. .. BUT HE LET HER. I used to think he just didn’t know, he didn’t see .. but he did and allowed it.

The sentence that saved me was It’s not that he doesn’t know, it’s that he doesn’t care. It’s not that he doesn’t see, it’s that it goes against what he want. .. or something like that. I still have it written down at work. (I am writing this from home right now,).

Thing is he knew exactly what he was doing to me, it just didn’t matter to him.

LeavingToxicTown
LeavingToxicTown
4 years ago
Reply to  MrsVain

Same here. She also aggressively pursued. None of this makes sense. To me, to friends, to my adult kid, to anyone. My therapist and I were talking about this today. She doesn’t think he’s a narcissist but that he’s clueless, emotionally immature. The OW has some serious issues and apparently open marriage so she can do and destroy anything she wants. I started reading “Healing from Hidden Abuse” (thanks CN for the suggestion) and it’s eye opening. I do not know if he is a Narcissist. All I know is the psychological abuse I endured was real – whether intentional or not.

My take aways: He kept going back. Period. End of story. Whether he was manipulated, brainwashed whatever, He kept going back. He made the decision to continue to lie to me. He made the decision to tell me such hurtful things. Him. Yes their correspondence to me looked similar and used the same phrasing. Yes I’m sure she was leading him. BUT he continued to follow and THIS is the reason that whatever happened to the loving, kind man I shared a life with no longer matters. His choices, his actions, his consequences.

At some point, he might realize what he lost. BUT it would be way too late – already is. I no longer see him as the same person. I’m sure he could never look at me the same. It’s time to disconnect and move forward, as difficult as that is.

Neversawitcoming33 – I know the sucker punching pain you have endured and the need to understand wtf happened. I’m right there with you – 27 years together and just a year out from D-day. It doesn’t make sense but so many things in life don’t. Take your second chance at life (congrats on being cancer free!) and enjoy it with your friends and family. I’m sure your life will be filled with love and joy. I know mine eventually will. Our STBXH’s not so much. If they can be led astray so easily I’m sure they will never truly be happy. Cheers.

GetMeToTheMeh
GetMeToTheMeh
4 years ago

Oh wow, my STBX’s OWhore apparently has an open marriage too. Even was over at my house for a work BBQ when they were cheating and was wearing a wedding ring and calling her husband as husband. He found out about their 6mth (or longer) affair two weeks before I did. Not really that Open was it.
She’s a predator, possibly with BPD, and serious esteem issues. My STBX was/is her boss, so big kibbles for her. But again, he still gave in. He still lied to me day in, day out. They both suck. And so does her H, who defended her to me, and who’s still with her 7mth after DDay! Now my STBX is the bit on the side (said he felt diminished in our marriage – ha!) of a woman who won’t even divorce her separated (under one roof) husband. A circus I’m glad to be almost clear from. Just sucks that I have to see them all at school (their kid started at my daughter’s school) and that my kids don’t have a choice to be around them.

Michelle Lawrence
Michelle Lawrence
4 years ago
Reply to  GetMeToTheMeh

She apparently told her husband on my D-day but who the fuck knows. I think it’s all lies. All of it. My STBXH is now also the bit on the side, has lost everything for what? At one point during wreckinciliation, he brought up how the OW’s marriage and relationship was different than ours, how close they were and how they talked about everything. I shut that down quick. Their relationship is sooooo good that they f*ck other people at will? It was sooooo good that she felt she needed to seek out a married man? I’m pretty sure he was going to bring up “open marriage” but he’s a spineless coward who could see that that topic would end cake immediately so he continued to play me until I kicked him out.

I’m sorry that you have to see them and your kids are exposed. I feel so sorry for all the kids for having such messed up parents. I’m lucky in that they live in a town a ways from me and I should hopefully never have to cross paths. I’m guessing that she’ll lose interest in my STBXH and move on to the next poor defenseless fuckwit and continue the cycle.

Agreed. Not a circus I ever wanted to be included in. Can I get a refund? So happy to be almost out and be the only sane adult in the room. What’s wrong with these people?

MrsVain
MrsVain
4 years ago
Reply to  MrsVain

It’s not that he doesn’t know, it’s that he doesn’t care. It’s not that he doesn’t see, it’s that he disagrees.

Not Crazy
Not Crazy
4 years ago
Reply to  MrsVain

Another good one from Lundy Bancroft is that “ He doesn’t have a problem with his anger; he has a problem with your anger”.

Sunshineafterrain
Sunshineafterrain
4 years ago

This could be my story too. Minus the hideous cancer you had to suffer. I’m so sorry.

My husband is 62. His AP is 34 (2 years older than my son). On discovery about the affair I counselled him! Wtf. Told him she was only after his money and the lifestyle he could facilitate for her and her two children.

My son and his wife are expecting a baby. I would say, “you are going to blow our family up – for nothing. You will regret it”. He claimed to have finished it, but hadn’t. I thought I was going mad. I threw him out 6 months ago.

Fast forward. He rented a house and moved her and the kids in. My son and daughter are devastated.

I now get texts and emails full of self pity and regret.

I come to this site to remind myself of the handbook they all appear to use.

Latest lament. “I’m so afraid of the future without you”. Translation anyone?

Let it snow
Let it snow
4 years ago

I’m afraid of myself without you
You were always my guiding light I grew up with, ugh
They are so afraid of abandonment, but care less about… you!
Xo

ivyleaguechump
ivyleaguechump
4 years ago

Translation? “I need a nurse and a purse.”

KB22
KB22
4 years ago

“I’m so afraid of the future without you”.
Translation: I’m so afraid OW is about to dump me as she only seems to care about what I can give her, which never seems like enough….if that happens I need to have you as a back up plan. So I’m planting the seeds right now to make you think that I deeply regret leaving you (I really don’t & I’ll stay with OW for as long as she’ll have me) and made a big mistake.

Block this asswipe and be glad to know his life his life sucks right now and is about to get worse.

Beans
Beans
4 years ago

I told my husband all the same things, which were BLATANTLY the case. She was using him and wanting what she could get. It never mattered because true important thing to HIM was getting his dick wet. She could have had a knife to his back ready to plunge it in the second he got off. It never mattered.

When a man decides (and as Tracy said it’s his decision that matters) that his dick makes the decisions, there’s absolutely nothing we can do. It’s not that he doesn’t get it, he’s very determined to not get it. He doesn’t care.

TorontoChump
TorontoChump
4 years ago
Reply to  Beans

Honestly, I don’t even think it’s about their dicks. Or, at least, not always. From what I’ve seen, men who cheat do so because ego stroking is even more important than dick stroking.

Newlady15
Newlady15
4 years ago
Reply to  TorontoChump

I agree toronto Chump. I just dumped my a-sexual boyfriend for sexting another woman while cuddling with me on my sofa. He preferred to play with her on the phone( she’s in NL) than the real live woman he was with. Ego stroking

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
4 years ago
Reply to  TorontoChump

If they can turn their backs on their families, they are hollow. There’s nothing there. They think other people are just characters in THEIR lives.

Persephone
Persephone
4 years ago

Errr … How come you didn’t block him? Then you wouldn’t need to be on a receiving side of his sadz. And why are you untangling the skein?

Daddymackllmakeyouchump
Daddymackllmakeyouchump
4 years ago

” afraid of a future without you” means that he’s having major regrets and the affair fog is starting to lift. Life with schoopy isn’t so great after all and he wants to mage sure he still has cake. Whike sparkletwat is thinking she’s won the glittery turd, said turd is behinf her back messaging another woman…the same woman he just chumped with her.

Notice how he didn’t say he wanted to be with you (why would anyone accept that offer anyway)….he just wants you to stands by for his cake supply.

After he shacked up with happy tits, he just picked up right where he left of with you because this IS him! It always was.

Don’t be cake. Don’t did it. Love yourself.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago

Sunshine, don’t fall for the trap! He doesn’t miss you and the family. He misses the delicious cake you provided. And also you and the kids are Plan B. DON’T BE PLAN B! For whatever reasons, things are not going well with AP and her kids.

Chump Lady’s Plan B post:

https://www.chumplady.com/2019/06/the-plan-b-offer/

My kids and I were Plan B way back in 2000, but I didn’t know it! Well, I think I was always Plan B. Block him! No or minimal contact. That sad sausage doesn’t deserve one more second of your life.

Sirchumpalot
Sirchumpalot
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

I was Plan B. Didn’t know it at the time. But my XW went so far as to get pregnant with the OM’s child to try to get him to leave his wife. When he didn’t, I was plan B. DO NOT take him back or even untangle their skein. You will regret it!

Nicole
Nicole
4 years ago
Reply to  Sirchumpalot

that’s terrible, but I’m glad to hear she got tossed aside by that schmoop.

ChumpTight
ChumpTight
4 years ago
Reply to  Sirchumpalot

Geez! I heard my STBXW may be pregnant. Her boyfriend has 5 kids with 3 women. He’ll leave her soon that’s how he operates. Thanks to everyone in CN I will not be plan B. I will laugh at her when she does try coming back.

Not crazy
Not crazy
4 years ago
Reply to  ChumpTight

Awesome!!

kbchump
kbchump
4 years ago
Reply to  ChumpTight

My ex wife left me for some clown who has 4 kids with 4 different women. At one time 2 of them were at the hospital giving birth at the same time..this after we were together 24 years. I mean WHAT THE FUCK EVER. Good riddance.

MissBailey
MissBailey
4 years ago
Reply to  Sirchumpalot

Wow, that’s some messed up shit. I cannot imagine the mindfuck you endured.

MissBailey
MissBailey
4 years ago

There could a variety of translations.

Life is not as fun as I though it would be.
What the bell was I thinking? Little brats!
Could I have an affair with you? Would you take me back?
I don’t like the consequences of my actions!
Can I have my wife and play toy?

MedusaInMeh
MedusaInMeh
4 years ago

Besides the obvious (money), what do these younger women get out of being with these much-older men? It’s just sick. Mine is 48 and with a 24 year old. There’s no way in hell he’s keeping up with her sexually!

Nicole
Nicole
4 years ago
Reply to  MedusaInMeh

daddy issues

fear that they can’t compete with women their own age, but stand a chance against older women/assume that a much older man will feel less of a need to cheat on them

Fearful&loathing
Fearful&loathing
4 years ago
Reply to  MedusaInMeh

DADDY ISSUES

Mighty miss
Mighty miss
4 years ago

So I always questioned my STBX choices in the OW. First one ( that I knew of) 5 kids 5 years younger than him athletic skinny fit (unlike me) married to a surgeon
Second one 2 years younger never married at age of 50 no kids- fit makes 6 figures and allows anal sex…..
Of course I accept he made the choice to cheat- he deserved better than me fit skinny etc…. everything I’m not. But really these two women wanting a married man with kids????? They suck just as much as he does…..
Just wish I could get over the hurt pain betrayal
Meh seems like it’s not in my near future
Karma bus – don’t see it rounding the corner
He’s dragging divorce out won’t produce financials court system is allowing him to continue his abuse
Could really use some words of wisdom…. tired of this consuming my life

SheChump
SheChump
4 years ago
Reply to  Mighty miss

Mighty Miss – please sign up at the Forums, if you haven’t already. General discussion will get the most replies and we’d love to help you there. Easy to sign up!

Heart
Heart
4 years ago
Reply to  Mighty miss

Same here. Wish I could get over the pain and hurt. I’m a breast cancer survivor too. Mine happened two years after my diagnosis. I wish we could form some kind of groups were we live so we can be support for one another. Sometimes you feel so alone in all of this. Is there anyone in the Nashville TN area?

dandoopy
dandoopy
4 years ago
Reply to  Heart

The hardest part is lonliness. I wish here in America, we were closer to extended family and that there was a stronger sense of community, then we wouldn’t take these breakups as bad. Many people only have the closeness of their spouses and that isn’t good because our society as a whole, no longer supports the institute of marriage. Spouses can get up and leave on a whim and often do.

Any regret the cheating spouse may feel at a later time is inconsequential the damage is done and the relationship dead.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Heart

WHAT?!?! I live in Nashville!! We will HAVE to get together!!!

S
S
4 years ago
Reply to  MedusaInMeh

It is a security thing. I truly think that is about the depth of it – and yeah sure at that age the older guy has accomplished things that are admirable and may still be handsome too…so maybe she also sees other qualities to convince herself it is true love but I think security is the key.

I know someone who was a single mom and poached a way older guy away from his wife and adult kids. I met her when she was in the thick of the marriage and had another kid with old guy and didn’t know the full history. Fast forward years later – Once she got to middle age she cheated on him and dumped old guy for a younger one. She is stable now and has a good job and her kids are out of the house. She no longer had a use for him. And her new guy is basically at her beck and call and keeps her house while she earns and keeps things stable for him.

It is weird because she is – or I thought of her as -a really nice woman in so many other ways, and is very ethical about other things. I don’t get it. I had to depend on her at a point in my life and so I really bonded with her. Now that I know all this about her it is hard to reconcile all the good in her with this severe character flaw.

Also – not totally related but kind of in terms of predatory-type women: I know of a woman who calculated who she would pursue to date based on names and what she knew of their wealth due to her work in fundraising. Luckily she only went after single guys but she eventually married one and you have to wonder how much true devotion is present with such self serving calculations. Wonder if her philanthropic hubby will be on this site as a chump one day, looking for advice. There are so many flavors of predator it is sad and scary. When my kids grow up I am going to advise a prenup no matter what.

hollowbunny
hollowbunny
4 years ago
Reply to  S

I know nasty women too. One claimed sexual harassment at her law office (she was an administrator single mom) and they paid her off quickly, a lawyer lost his job, it was cheaper than defending themselves. It was well known that he had not stepped out of line. This was before email, texts etc. She did that twice before she changed careers – left law practices since her reputation was known in our city. Every office she worked in, she cried harassment, really fucking things up for the real victims. It was very sad, she had no problem ruining lives and was selfish enough to give her child up to her alcoholic mother because free time.. Train wreck with daddy issues.

I knew girls in college whose mothers sent them salaries of pro sports players and bars they hung out in when in town. They were taught to go after money only. Huge daddy issues passed down from their moms, who had made bad choices in marriage due to daddy issues. They also all fucked anything that stood still long enough.

I had a friend who cheated and I dumped her as a result 10 years before I was chumped. I knew her well enoguh to know that she had spent her life seeking sexual attention from men, and trying to be the prettiest skinniest girl in the world for her ice cold, distant, arrogant, vain, remarried with a new family, dad. It was horrifying to watch her drive her life into the ground. She lost a great husband, who has since gotten a great new life.

Cheater told me that his train wreck ow was easy because girls (she was married and 52) with daddy issues tend to act out sexually and make bad choices for male attention. I pointed out to him that men with mommy issues were fucking assholes too who will wet their dicks any way they can in any hole they find. He did not argue.

KB22
KB22
4 years ago
Reply to  hollowbunny

I don’t know if there are statistics on OW that had been abandoned by their fathers but it does seem the majority of OW as well as strippers all have “Daddy” issues. Narcs can spot them a mile away.

Fern
Fern
4 years ago

Oh Sunshine I’m so sorry. Deep down, you know what he means; it’s just too disgusting to wrap your mind around.

“I’m afraid of a future without you to wipe my ass, if I need it, when I’m old. Who will take care of me? This woman is not a chump, she’s a narc and now I realize that she will not take of me when she is middle aged and I’m in diapers. And raising the children of someone else is not fun. And they take the attention off me. And do we really need to split all the assets? And who is going to take care of everything?”

You have a lot of life in you still Sunshine, don’t let this dark cloud dim your light.

No Shit Cupcakes
No Shit Cupcakes
4 years ago

“Latest lament. “I’m so afraid of the future without you”. Translation anyone?”

Several!

It’s hard raising children and I didn’t do it the first time around and I for damn sure don’t want to do it at my age.

She’s leaning on me to earn more money and never retire and I can’t do that because I owe you money and I’m tired. Save me!

I can’t get it up and I think she’s looking for someone else. I will be selling matches in the snow unless you open your heart and home to me (but don’t expect me to be there for YOU – we’ve been over this dammit!). Save me!

Holy shit, there are consequences to abandoning my family. They include my son cutting me out of his life and these new kids…well…they’re not mine and I wanted to be worshipped as grandpa and that’s not going to happen without you. Save me!

Screw that noise. Block his number and emails. Point and laugh! Anonymously send him a bad toupee or a box of gummy dicks? Yeah, there really are sites that will anonymously send snarky gifts. Not that he’s worth the time or money, but it might cheer you up to envision his ire after opening it up.

dandoopy
dandoopy
4 years ago

Excellent interpretation of what Sunshineaftertherain’s ex husband really means when he says he regrets. It’s all about HIM.

dandoopy
dandoopy
4 years ago

Very good interpretation of what Sunshineaftertherain’s ex husband really means. It’s all about him. Now he has a Narc woman, he deserves her!

Poconochump
Poconochump
4 years ago

Great reply ????????

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
4 years ago

He figured out she won’t take care of him when he’s old and sick. She isn’t a good “wife appliance.”

Traffic_Spiral
Traffic_Spiral
4 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

Yup. “Oh gee, life was great with Wife Appliance doing all the work and Ho Appliance providing all the fun while asking nothing in return. But now Wife Appliance no longer works for me and Ho Appliance is requiring that I put in work as Husband/Father Appliance! I hate work! Save me, Wife Appliance! Without you doing all my work for me and also providing a reason why I can’t be Husband/Father Appliance to the Ho, things are looking grim!”

ChumpetyChumpChump
ChumpetyChumpChump
4 years ago
Reply to  Traffic_Spiral

Bingo.

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
4 years ago

Yes! Yes, to all these excellent translations!

Gentle reader
Gentle reader
4 years ago

Never saw it coming. You make me worried. In a way you are blaming her and making excuses. He called you on your trip to end it but he had obviously been telling you or whatever else it was over. You say you don’t want him back but if it doesn’t work out with this woman he is with and he comes crawlin back will you still feel the same way? No one can dictate how you feel but I hope you truly see who this guy is. If things do not work out between him and this woman please be on your guard. I would not put it past him to try to come back.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Gentle reader

Yes. Thank you! You’re BOTH right. I DO see the terrible things he has done to me and our family. I will admit that it is HARD to conceive that he would CHOOSE to do these things, but the bottom line is HE DID. And that’s it. No matter what my heart tells me, or how forgiving my nature is, it is over and has been. It’s just sad to me now is all. I’m not the kind of person that can turn on hate – I haven’t had a reason until now to do so, but I have done it and I promise that I will NEVER let my guard down again. Thanks for the support! I am glad we all can look out for each other!

Heather
Heather
4 years ago

I get your hurt – sadly, most all of us do. You’re right about the compounded shock of reading how many of us seem to have lived the same nightmare. Me? 24 years, no clue, and eventually learned of 7+ prostitute/paid hookups. There were probably more… But you can’t help missing the man who he used to be – even if you now know it was all an illusion. You are right : “My husband died the day he met her, and someone new is walking around in his body.” I tell others I am a widow forced to deal with my husband’s killer, because the guy he is now murdered the man I loved. I grieve my loss, but reconciliation? THAT would be like Stockholm syndrome-you /we’d be falling for our torturers. Stay strong, stay sane.

Elderly Chump
Elderly Chump
4 years ago
Reply to  Heather

Heather,

I like how you have turned your situation around to being a widow. Part of me still finds it so entirely ungraspable to look at the man who was my husband for 30 years and yet he is a complete stranger now.

I have come to realize that when we take our wedding vows a bond is indeed created between us and some kind of intelligence in this vast universe of ours – some call it God but I am not a religious person and have too many negative reactions to that word to use it here – and that bond is tangible but never more so then when it is smashed to pieces by a spouses breaking his/her vows. Haunting experience. Left with an image – a body vacant of who I thought he had been. The man I married is missing in action and that does still hurt and is terrifying at the same time to know I will NEVER see him again coupled with the knowledge that who I thought he was wasn’t him either since he was one of the ones leading a double life. And here I thought I was your average suburban housewife! Boy what a tangled twist my life took. Only those here can really grasp all of this crapola.

I remember when my father abandoned us and now I know why that felt so disorienting to me as a child. The man looked like my father when we spent weekends with him but there was no bond there anymore. He had moved on and why he continued to take us every other weekend and in the summers for a month still puzzles me but I suspect it was all about image management. I certainly felt no genuine love from him – or that he cared. He was incapable of caring for anything other than himself and his work and the next woman on his horizon.

Thanks for your words! I will probably steal them when asked by someone what happened to me and my children.

Back to original poster – thank you for bringing up such a timely topic for consideration. I have learned a lot here today. And always, CL for sharing your wisdom so clearly.

KB22
KB22
4 years ago
Reply to  Gentle reader

Yes, it would appear Never saw it coming is really seeking the “he must have gone insane” excuse and therefore he was susceptible to this wanton OW. OW may be a train wreck, they usually are, but that is not the problem. The problem is her cheating scumbag husband. An opportunity presented itself and he jumped on board without giving any thought to his wife and family. Opportunities will always be out there so even if it doesn’t work out with OW, cheater will find another opportunity. He’s shown you who and what he is, please block him and move on with your life.

EstellaO
EstellaO
4 years ago

I’m so sorry about your co-worker. Two months ago I had a similar experience–heard about the unexpected loss of a former co-worker of mine from years ago. This was really the only guy I know who, in his early 20s, was totally unafraid to make the case to his more footloose and fancy free friends that commitment and trust were the key to a great sex life. He died of a heart attack in the middle of the night at 51–a heartbreaking loss for his many friends and his great family. I hate losing the good ones young.

jojobee
jojobee
4 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Tracy,

May perpetual light shine upon his soul. I am so sorry for your loss.

Living a Nightmare live
Living a Nightmare live
4 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Just guessing here but I think its because he is the ULTIMATE TROLL!!! Seriously, it takes a special kinda fucked up to be this way. Given the typical Narc is a Sociopath, knowing what is wrong but yet still do, there is still conviction and its TRUTH. Cuts like a 2 edged sword which is why they always go on defense mode when you call them out. Always blame-shifting. It burns them up, in that private, secret place. Make no mistake, they feel it and there will come a day that they will no longer be able to run. You reap what you sow and consequence is a bitch. Not that they’d ever admit it!

Martha
Martha
4 years ago

Living a Nightmare live,

Yep about them getting defensive when we call them out with the TRUTH! My XH would always get so defensive when I brought something up. I remember saying to him many times, “Why are you so defensive?” Now I know that getting defensive when they fear they will be exposed for liars and cheaters they are! If only I knew this years ago!

Renay
Renay
4 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Because they don’t qualify for heaven and the devil is still getting mileage out of them.

Beetle
Beetle
4 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Prayers for your friend and his family. That’s so sad.

Kathy
Kathy
4 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Because God doesn’t want them and the devil won’t take them!

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I’m sorry for the loss of your friend, Chump Lady. Yeah, it seems like the jerks live forever, but some of the good guys die young. One of my friends Good Guy husband died a few years ago while he was out on a run – heart attack. He was in his 30’s. It never makes sense. 🙁

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
4 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Because God doesn’t want them either!

MBSS
MBSS
4 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

Best answer ever.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

#truth lol 🙂

Mandie101
Mandie101
4 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

Lol ????

EstellaO
EstellaO
4 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

Sadly, probably this.

Chumptastic
Chumptastic
4 years ago

@neversawitcoming33 She did not change him, she REVEALED him!! He was this person, and you give her too much credit. She is not a witch, she is person. He was a surface person with no substance.
I doubt this was a first and only, I too believed my ex was “bewitched” by a spider woman. But as I have now been free for over 2 years I see things more clearly. I see that this was probably a pattern. I believed he as a good, honest, trustworthy man; I think I was wrong. My whole vision of him is different. I think as you move further away from this asshole your opinion will change of your past.

CatholicSchoolMomsGoneBad
CatholicSchoolMomsGoneBad
4 years ago
Reply to  Chumptastic

Yes, Chumptastic, exactly this … Revealed. OWhore may have been relentless and manipulative pursuing my stbx but, truth is, I can only blame him. He allowed it. That was so very hard to accept. Although we still call her the Demon Whore… old habits die hard ????

Insecure Chump
Insecure Chump
4 years ago
Reply to  Chumptastic

I agree Chumptastic

The OW, whilst bad, is actually no way near as bad as your husband. He took the vows. He had children with you. He knew you yet he was okay with breaking your heart. Let’s put the bulk of the blame where it belong-to your soon to be ex husband. Hooray!

A man with character and integrity is NEVER okay with hurting his wife – no matter how good of a job the surgeon did on the blonde’s fake boobs, it wouldn’t matter. Your STBex just has no values.

You on the other hand do. Start using your awesome qualities to help drive you forward. Trust me, no good comes from driving yourself insane from analysing the situation. See him for what he is – a characterless jerk. I’m glad you won’t spend the rest of your life with someone so lame and shallow.

Congratulations on being cancer free. Take that trip again and really celebrate it. Big hugs. It will get easier. I promise.

unicornomore
unicornomore
4 years ago
Reply to  Chumptastic

So true !! when my Cheater had what I thought was His Affair (as in his Only Affair) it turned out that it was far from the first but it was the one which broke the camels back…the song lyrics would tell you he “fooled around and fell in love” but that sort of “love” is not love to me, its just intense selfishness.

This is CLs line that stuck out for me:
“He chose to do this. And his volition in the matter is way more painful than thinking he suffers under an evil spell.”
At one point, my Cheater wrote me a note about how he had fallen under the spell of manipulative women. I was so fucking stupid, I didnt even see he spoke in the plural. You would think if he were decent and that happened before, he wouldnt do it AGAIN.

IT IS THEM…not the women they get to help destroy their families.

And I love the added narrative with Mr CL…that is dear. Im remarried to someone that dear. He is silly and buys too much Tide detergent and boots, but he is good.

Bruno
Bruno
4 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

The frequent defence of people who sexually assualt tiny little girls?
“She seduced me.”
Just like child molestors, adulterers do their thing because they are predisposed. Their excuses are just self deception.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
4 years ago
Reply to  Bruno

Thanks to Sigmund Freud and his moral cowardice in formulating his seduction theory, in effect blaming mostly female victims for being abused

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

On point, Chumptastic! She revealed him. He’s a liar and a cheater. He’s not the person she thought he was.

Almost five years out from D-day; now I can look back and see a lot of the times there was glitches in the matrix. Something was off at times. Strange comments. Acting inappropriate for the circumstances. Strange, fake, over-the-top laughing. The smirk. Chameleon behavior.

All the times he was either cheating or having EA’s, he turned into his real self. The mask dropped and I got to see him for who he really is. The mask is back on for his whore, family and friends. But the glitches are still there. His whore just hasn’t figured it out yet.

Mov'n On
Mov'n On
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

Well said, you saw the glitches, inappropriate actions , things not adding up. Maybe Omissions in truth, bold lies, flirting with married women, or all women, often in front of you? Something I have not read, is the point when they are being discovered and if anyone was fearful of them. I saw a glaze in my X eyes, his manner was becoming creamy and threatening. He knew I was catching on to the truth of catching him in a 2nd affair and cheat.He would sneak up behind me , even put his hands around my neck at times. In the news we read of men in affairs who dispose of wives even children. This thought has crossed my mind for what my X could have done and looking back, the weird behavior was there. They get caught and they don’t like being caught in lies and games.

Lost 220# Deadweight
Lost 220# Deadweight
4 years ago

To heal you have to stop romanticizing the person who destroyed you. When memories of who they pretended to be creep in, put reality on repeat and remember good hearts don’t cannibalize their kindred.

I had that quote up in my house for a long time. I, too, made it about home slice. I gave her so much power when in fact he is an adult and has the ability to make decisions for himself. He chose to have an affair and leave his family (they got married and are now separated less than two years later).

In the words of Tupac, “you can spend minutes, hours, weeks or even months over-analyzing a situation trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could’ve, would’ve happened…or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the fuck on”.

Here’s to you living your best life! It’ll be different, trust me, it can be amazing if you allow it to be so.

Drew
Drew
4 years ago

Love those quotes, “moving the fuck on” is the best advice ever. Despite our 28 years together, I see now that x was empty. When he was present physically he was disengaged, I always felt the absence even when our life together was going well.

littlesigns
littlesigns
4 years ago

“He’s not like you. You may share a history, but you don’t share values”. This. is. brilliant.

For 31 years I also wanted to believe that there was some outside force that was causing him to be an asshole. Truth is, he was and is an unhappy, narcissistic asshole; I was just standing beside him!

Cuzchump
Cuzchump
4 years ago

I am so sorry that you are going through this. You deserved a husband that would stand by you and take care of you. What you got was a low life man-child who only cared about his own needs. Be thankful you are rid of him. You need calm in your life to keep yourself healthy. I know it is hard and you want to blame the OW. Yes, she is at fault. But, he wanted to cheat. And if it would not have been with her it would be with some other low moral self centered women.
I was not diagnosed with cancer. I went through early menopause that kicked my ass. Came with depression anxiety attacks. Painful intercourse. Instead of a husband that comforted me and took care of me in my time of need. He decided to cheat on me with my cousin. I blamed her for the affair. I realized that she could have said no. Yes, she is a POS for screwing her cousin’s husband. But, my husband wanted to cheat. As per my husband she was fun. You will see that be cheater free will be the best thing you can do for yourself. Hugs to you, And wishing you cancer free.

Sara
Sara
4 years ago

I labeled mine as going through a midlife crisis and the now a narcissist but I realized that he’s an asshole. Most narcissist are. I had a stand in “husband” and my daughter has a stand in “daddy”. I like to call him uncle daddy..lol. I went through some hard times and I realized that he would never be there for me. When my daughter was born he didn’t help with her either. It’s all superficial and he’s an asshole. Period. Done 🙂 Trying to be a stronger person bc I need to be for my 5yo girl.

unicornomore
unicornomore
4 years ago
Reply to  Sara

Yup…my nightmare started pre-Chumplady and I had nowhere to go with it all and Midlife Crisis fit the best of what drivel was out there at the time. I was a devotee for years. I actually came here once or twice while he was alive and almost posted a RIC sort of “you can save your marriage!” (maybe I actually DID post something, you can all line up and smack me for that). Later learned I was wrong wrong wrong.

Meg
Meg
4 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Me too. I was buying every Amazon book on the terrible midlife crisis problem & reading websites about what to do. RIC got me hooked & then one day I saw the chumplady link in 2012 and that was it. The curtain fell away & I saw the truth. Thank you CL for saving my life! Reading these posts today I still feel that old feeling of anguish over the realization that my cheating ex chose to do everything he did. His penis didn’t accidentally fall into a manhole/vagina. He put it there.

Sirchumpalot
Sirchumpalot
4 years ago
Reply to  Meg

My XW said it “was a mistake”. I had enough courage shortly after D-Day to say it “was not a mistake, but a CHOICE”. It doesn’t accidentally happen, they choose to do it.

Hopeful
Hopeful
4 years ago

“He’s not like you. You may share history, but you don’t share values.”

“He doesn’t love the way you love.”

“I’m sorry to be so blunt about it, but you invested deeply in a coward.”

“Anyone who loves deeply could not hurt you this way.”

A thousand times yes to all of the above. Thank you CL for answering Neversawitcoming’s letter in your brilliant ‘truth is universal’ sort of way that also gave me a much-needed slap back into reality.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  Hopeful

“Anyone who loves deeply could not hurt you this way.”

I would like to add that anyone who loves deeply could not hurt THEIR CHILDREN this way.

My XH is now Disney Dad. But before D-day he was 100% full of himself and selfish as hell. He not only handed out crumbs of his time to me, but also to our kids. I could tell story after story how he put his job, “friends” and hobbies before his family

He emotionlessly watched both of our kids bawl their eyes out many times over their dad wanting a divorce. I watched the snake rewrite their life history. I watched him lie over and over to them. My kids had to watch their dad emotionally and mentally destroy their mom.

Years ago, my XH and I read the book “Wild at Heart”; it talks about The Father Wound. Well, after telling our kids that dad wanted a divorce. The XH laughed and smirked while saying to me, “Well, I guess I just gave the kids The Father Wound. He laughed about inflicting pain onto his own children! This is not a man who loves deeply. He’s all surfacey and so is his brand of love.

JeanM
JeanM
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

Marrha, I believe a special hell exists for that sun-human EX, Dad.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  JeanM

I couldn’t agree more, JeanM.

JenJen66
JenJen66
4 years ago
Reply to  JeanM

I believe that too, JeanM.

JeanM
JeanM
4 years ago
Reply to  JeanM

Sub-human’

jojobee
jojobee
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

What a stone, cold, bastard.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  jojobee

Yep! The only tears he shed was for himself. He was ice cold and unemotional for me and the kids. I’d go as far as saying he was robotic towards us.

pecan
pecan
4 years ago

I used to be really interested in diagnosing my ex husband. After some years of no contact I find that I don’t particularly find it interesting. He no longer had any power in my life and I no longer look to him for anything. Time is a great healer in that way.

Newlady15
Newlady15
4 years ago
Reply to  pecan

Amen!!

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  pecan

Pecan, I think a lot of us chumps and people who have been in close relationships with fuckwits spend a lot of time in the early days trying to diagnose and understand them. The first time my XH was called a possible narcissist was by my first counselor, way back in 2014. Then two months later my sister blurted out the word “sociopath” when I told her how he used to lick the tears off my face when I cried; he had no clue how to empathize with me, so he either would tell a joke when I was crying or lick the tears off my face.

After reading tons of books, blogs and watching one too many Youtube videos, I’m finally at meh with studying about the disordered. Chump Lady I still come back to every single day, because I still need the wisdom and also trying to pay it back, because so many chumps were there for me during my really dark days. It’s taken a very long time to shift the focus onto me and my kids. I’m not at 100% yet, but I know Meh Day will come one day! 🙂

Anon
Anon
4 years ago

I feel for you. I know about jumping from diagnosis to diagnosis trying to unskein their fuckupedness. Been there. Spent wayyy too much money on Amazon too. Ugh what they must think of me.

In fact no he does not have Stockholm Syndrome. It is we who have it. We sparkle and make excuses for their behavior because we “know”. We’ve read about it. It’s them not us.

Instead of working to figure them out time and resources are better spent trying to figure our own selves out and why this behavior is somehow acceptable for us.

You’re trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. It won’t fit. Quit diagnosing him and focus on you. He wasn’t that great. You know it. Your kids know it. Let him drown in his own shit

UXworld
UXworld
4 years ago

(Music by The Spinners, lyrics by NSIC33’s Fuckwit Ex)

Oil down my hairy back
Fumigate my pubes
Gonna ditch my sufferin’ wife
For a blonde with plastic boobs

She and I, we’re steppin’ out
Forgive the fast discard
I’m latching on to fantasy
Cuz real life’s much too hard

Hey ya’ll, prepare yourself for the movie date man
You’ll want to run and hide
From the movie date man
You’ll be much better off
When the movie date abdicates…

oldcrone
oldcrone
4 years ago
Reply to  UXworld

Rubberband Man! Always loved this song!
Thank you, UXworld.
You’re the Chump version of Weird Al. I’ll download your album when it’s ready!

chumpupthevolume
chumpupthevolume
4 years ago

Neversaw, if anybody has Stockholm Syndrome, it’s you. You make excuses for your torturer. You desperately try to “save” somebody who discarded you when you had *cancer*, FFS.
He is not brainwashed. His mind (such as it is) functions well, it’s just that it functions primarily to serve his own selfish and childish whims. He’s an emotional infant. You want him to be a man. He won’t be. Sorry. Yes, there are mate poachers out there. My husband got targeted by one as well. But mates have to consent to being poached. She didn’t kidnap and rape him. He was only too thrilled to be hit on by some skank, then use that as an excuse to dump you. Experienced mate poachers are experts at knowing which people are casting their eyes about, looking for an affair partner.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
4 years ago

This, right here: “If anybody has Stockholm Syndrome, it’s you. You make excuses for your torturer.”

Doingme
Doingme
4 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

Stockholm Syndrome requires emotional bonding with your abuser and I’d a survival strategy for victims. It puts the abuser in a position of control and power.

The victim has positive feelings for the abuser and has an inability to release themselves in detachment.

Doingme
Doingme
4 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

The victim loved their abuser; this sums it up nicely.

“Positive feelings by the victim toward the abuser/controller
Negative feelings by the victim toward family, friends, or authorities trying to rescue/support them or win their release
Support of the abuser’s reasons and behaviors
Positive feelings by the abuser toward the victim
Supportive behaviors by the victim, at times helping the abuser
Inability to engage in behaviors that may assist in their release or detachment

It has been found that four situations or conditions are present that serve as a foundation for the development of Stockholm Syndrome. These four situations can be found in hostage, severe abuse, and abusive relationships:

The presence of a perceived threat to one’s physical or psychological survival and the belief that the abuser would carry out the threat.
The presence of a perceived small kindness from the abuser to the victim
Isolation from perspectives other than those of the abuser
The perceived inability to detach”.

Doingme
Doingme
4 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

33, my abuser was a self proclaimed ‘good guy’. Repeatedly he stated that he was a simple guy, no one has a problem with me but you, and that he loved me.

The gaslighting was present from the beginning. He explained away getting crabs the first year. He repeatedly told me over the years of him customers wanted to fix him up with their daughters, sisters, and friends. He was always looking and cheating. He played the victim of emotional abuse for decades all the while maintaining his image. I helped my abuser maintain that image believing.

The crumbs I settled for were in fact disturbing. Yes, I had Stockholm Syndrome. I had to ASK crying how to stop loving my abuser after 41 years of toxic abuse.

A man who leaves you with cancer or for that matter detaches with ease never attached from the get go. The Limited is a covert narcissist and quite possibly a sociopath. When there’s no logic behind their actions you can bet your ass they are personality disordered. No matter, sign the settlement. Be sure you get whatever you have coming to you regardless.

guychump
guychump
4 years ago

You are so right chumpupthevolume. When you diagnose you make excuses!! We don’t want to think we picked wrong, that we were duped into believing this person was good. We want to think that THEY changed, not that we were so naïve. In the end it really doesn’t matter why or when, they did it!! They are that person.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
4 years ago
Reply to  guychump

People do change sometimes but they choose to change and not always for the better. When someone chooses to turn into an asshole it is best to avoid that person. Like it or not, that is who they are now and they aren’t going back. If they wanted to go back to being who they were they wouldn’t have changed in the first place.

Deee
Deee
4 years ago

Interesting you say this Chumpinrecovery – when I discovered the “tip of the iceberg” and realized my STBX was doing some nasty shit I said to him that “he had really changed” and he agreed. He believes he has changed into this super amazing person who is a “better friend”, a “better person” and a “better father”. IMO better fathers don’t tell kids on a family vacation that they can’t come with him on his drives and then meet up with a married colleague and do the nasty on the beach. Better people don’t steal, lie, cheat, manipulate, and deceive friends and family for their own benefit. He did change into a pretty horrible person but having said that looking back he had some big red flags – he had always been a selfish person but seemed to treat me well in the beginning. Doesn’t really matter whether he changed or not as he is a pretty horrible person (with a sparkly topcoat of course).

Samsara
Samsara
4 years ago

Neversawitcoming,
I’m sorry for the horror you have endured. You are a warrior. I hope you continue to recover.

A few observations:
All of the things you thought (MLC, bipolar / depression, illness, etc) I too ascribed to my cheating husband when he became someone I didn’t know overnight. This is a common theme here. The OW in my case was in another country, and he was totally under the spell of this OW. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, felt sorry for him and I felt the same as you initially, that he had been “taken over” by her. It went from 0 to 100 in a week for the TwuWuvs. That’s how radical it was in acceleration. Limerance, infatuation, love addiction. Whatever. I was the skein untangler champion. Now I know better. Whatever happened to him and whatever influence he allowed her to have or that she asserted, it simply doesn’t matter. I am VERY stubbornly loyal so it took me a long time to understand that the only thing that matters is the reality of who he is and what that new reality meant for me, and for my future. I cannot diagnose him to my benefit.

CL is on point when she writes “Did he stand by you as you suffered? No. He looked for an escape hatch. He doesn’t love the way you love.” In other words, he sucks beyond. That is the correct diagnosis.

Wishing you the best x

Kintsugi
Kintsugi
4 years ago

“My goal now is to stay off Dateline.”
I hear that! It’s also mine.

Side note…. my parents have a Dateline inductee living next door to them. No lie. He shot and killed a guy in a property dispute and got a mistrial. The county attorney declined to prosecute a second time.

Beau
Beau
4 years ago
Reply to  Kintsugi

Kintsugi just remember karma’s a bitch. He won’t get away with it. My daughter’s father-in-law, a farmer, was killed by one of his hired hands in 2011. Everybody knew he did it because he had motive, opportunity, and he was a druggie too, but the DA wouldn’t prosecute……not enough “hard” evidence. Two years went by before they found that same guy on the side of a country road beaten to death. He apparently made somebody in the drug-world angry. Justice had been served.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  Kintsugi

Haha, Kintsugi! Me too about Dateline! And The Ted Bundy Tapes, Scott Peterson, Chris Watts, etc, etc.

Six months before D-day, we went on a trip to Jamaica to celebrate our upcoming 20th wedding anniversary. We took what looks like a two person catamaran out to sea; XH got a short lesson on how to work it. Long story short. XH couldn’t get it to turn around to take us back to the shore. He kept getting us farther and farther away. I honestly thought we were done for. I was shaking, crying, screaming for help and praying. Thankfully he got it turned around!

A few years after D-day and quite possibly while I was reading Chump Lady. I remembered what happened on this trip and I got chills down my spine. He could have so easily pushed me overboard. He’s a “nice, Christian guy!” It was an “accident”. Or “she was suicidal”. I only feel comfortable sharing these thought here at CN, because people would think I was “crazy” for ever thinking so a thing.

For years I thought he was trying to hurt me. He purposely would take a left turn into very close to incoming traffic. I told him he was scaring me and he kept doing it and never ever stopped.

Long story, but he purposely took us on a hike that a bear was just spotted on the trail only minutes before at Glacier National Park. And yes, we saw the bear on the trail and had to slowly get out of there while the fuckwit videotaped the bear coming towards him.

I have many other stories where he just didn’t seem to care about my safety. So I think that’s why the Datelines and shows like that are so appealing.

WitchayWoman
WitchayWoman
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

The Tail of the Dragon is a road in the Smokey Mountains with 318 curves, famous for being “scenic” and a great ride for motorcyclists. Fuckwit was driving us in my car, over the speed limit at midnight, lost, trying to get to our hotel before it closed. He weaved in and out of the oncoming lane because “it’s actually safer to drive in straight lines whenever you can”, never mind that a car may be stalled without its lights on, or a deer may run out in front of us. He found it thrilling, and laughed while frequently taking his eyes off the road to turn to look at my stoic reaction. I sat there just waiting to die. I hated him for that about as much as I hated him for the motion sickness I had, exacerbated by an empty stomach because he refused to stop for dinner. He wasn’t hungry after lunch, so how could I possibly be hungry… I wish I had projectile vomited all over him.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  WitchayWoman

That is so disgusting and abusive. He took delight in your agony. 🙁 I’m so sorry that happened to you.

I am continually thinking about what my deal breakers in a relationship would be and now I’m realizing that the whole crazy making car behavior will most certainly be one of them. Someone who takes pleasure in my fear will most certainly be a deal breaker for me. If I say, “Please stop driving crazy. You are scaring me.” and then they continue too. I’m done. Someone who doesn’t care that I don’t feel safe isn’t the person for me. If one of my kids asked me to stop doing something that scared them, I’d stop right away because I love them and don’t want them to be afraid. People who really love you don’t want you to be afraid. To me, this type of behavior points to someone with a lack of empathy and is probably doing other abusive things in the relationship and it’s usually covert, so we don’t recognize it for what it is.

WitchayWoman
WitchayWoman
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

That’s a wise observation, Martha. I have many, many things on that dealbreaker list, thanks to this blog. What time and trouble I could have saved, had I made a list back then that had more substance than what it did.

Beans
Beans
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

Narcissistic people seem to absolutely adore drama, and all the extreme highs and lows and adrenaline dumps. Love to shake things up when they get bored. So I absolutely believe he did all this on purpose to at least get a rise out of you, and at most to play head games with you and to turn you into the quivering wreck of a female he apparently wants.

Thank God you got out alive!!!

Martha
Martha
4 years ago
Reply to  Beans

Yes, Beans, I totally agree with you. It’s all intentional behavior to push buttons and make one confused.

On Facebook I follow Shannon Thomas who wrote the book “Healing from Hidden Abuse”. Once in awhile she posts a question for her followers. The question had to do with driving in a car with a narc, sociopath, or psychopath. Over a hundred people responded to the question; the most responses I ever saw for one of her questions!

My ex did little things in the car that would never look like abuse if I told someone the story. But it was all intentional and only I would know what he was doing to push my buttons. Well over 20 years ago I asked him nicely if he could turn on the windshield wipers, because I couldn’t see out the window. He said and I quote, “You don’t need to see.” So from then on, for the rest of our marriage, he wouldn’t turn on the windshield wipers until he could barely see. I never said anything, because I knew he was trying to get a rise out of me; I wouldn’t give him the satisfaction!

Another time I made a comment on why he always had to back into a parking space. I wasn’t being mean. It was an honest question. So from then on, he always announced to me, “I’m backing up.” I got made fun of or yelled at when he’d follow so close to the car in front of us and then when they stopped fast, I’d put my pretend break on and make a noise. He had already hit at least two cars from behind, so it was a natural reflex to make a noise. He purposely drove 85 mph in Michigan during a blizzard. Cars all over the place in ditches. We had a infant and two year old in the car. I asked him to please slow down. He said, “If you don’t like my driving. Then you drive home.” So I did! 500+ miles drive home in a blizzard. Sometimes I wonder why I put up with all the abuse and crazy-making. And only an abuser would take pleasure in hurting someone and making them feel unsafe.

Yes, thank God I got out alive. I know it sounds crazy to even think someone might want you dead. But I’m sure Laci Peterson and Shannan Watts had no clue they were married to someone who wanted them dead.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

Wow! I just followed Shannon Thomas and looked up that post! I had NO IDEA that was a thing, but my narcissist SO did that too! WHY did we put up with that?? I really just didn’t know any different I guess? WOW. I don’t know when I will stop being shocked by these things……

Martha
Martha
4 years ago

Yeah, Neversawitcoming33, I was shocked when I saw the question posted and then all the tons of responses. I have heard it described as they are in total control in the car when they are driving and we can’t get away. It was just great validation that he really was toying/abusing me.

And to try to answer the question as to why we put up with it? Yes, we didn’t know better. And we didn’t know about hidden abuse. And it’s gradual like the story about if you put a frog in a pot of hot water it will jump out. But if you put a frog in cold water and slowly get it to boiling, it will boil to death. That’s what this abuse is like. We just can’t imagine that what they are doing is abusive. My XH would do things outside of the car too. I knew he was trying to get a rise out of me or covertly make a point out of something that happened years ago. I knew what he was doing on purpose, but I never knew it was abuse.

Neversawitcoming33, you will be shocked for a long time. Especially if you stay with us at CL and CN. I’ve been here for over three years and I still get shocked or have a #metoo moment. (((Hugs))) to you.

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

I too dealt with dangerous rage driving. Like your ex, mine would go faster and tail gate more if I gave him any indication that his driving was scaring me. The year of the discard preceding dday was the worst! I had to take dramamine, not for the motion sickness but for the sleep/drowsiness it induced so I could stay mellow. It also helped me be able to look at my phone without vomiting which was a welcome distraction. Toward the end, I ascertained that paying attention to the phone and ignoring his driving was rather annoying to him so that was just an added bonus. Mostly I was just happy to reach my destination in one piece.

To this day, it’s really hard for me to be a passenger without getting flash backs of those days. My therapist said it was unequivocal abuse; just the kind you couldn’t see on my body.

unicornomore
unicornomore
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

The dangerous rage-driving I tolerated…I am so deeply ashamed for not moving out and leaving him immediately after any of the dozens of episodes. He drove (with me and the kids in the car) so dangerously it seemed that he truly wanted us dead.

When I think of myself in the passenger seat simply terrified and without any options praying to God we didnt kill someone…I cant believe I refused to see how abusive it was.

AwakeningDreamer
AwakeningDreamer
4 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Oh god, me too. I’d feel the adrenaline surge thinking we were going to rear end other cars and I’d gasp and close my eyes. The fear we would run over kids/animals when he floored it around the neighborhood. Ugh

Jax
Jax
4 years ago

Hey neversawitcoming hurry up and sign that divorce decree before sparkletwat dumps him – and she will. Some brainless body builder with the IQ of a turnip will come along and she’ll toss him like a fast-food wrapper. He’ll then get a taste of your misery – minus the cancer – and MAYBE feel a modicum of conscious that REAL people have. He’ll also try and get you back – he’ll miss the doormat he called a wife. Remember how you felt after vomiting air after the chemo/radiation – you were in a war and he was AWOL – do not fall for his con – you deserve better than this fecal filled cranium wearing an new asshat! You’re a new (and we all hope cured) mighty chump/knight that will find someone who will feel so lucky to have you. You’re very powerful now – don’t blow it!
Please keep us posted on your cancer war – I’m always awed by cancer survivors ( it got 3 in our family) – you should feel your power – and keep it – you earned it!

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Jax

Thank you!
<3

wildcat
wildcat
4 years ago

So happy you are cancer-free! I also have a similar story (without the cancer), and will share a bit of it- just to explain how I finally started moving forward.

I was a problem-solving mental health expert – Over the course of 2 years, starting after the first D-day until he moved out, I was convinced that the cheater had any one of these diagnoses: work burn-out, depression/anxiety, bi-polar disorder, borderline PD, narcissistic PD. WHAT THE FUCK EVER. In the end, turns out he is a completely evil and selfish NPD asshole.

As CL says in the book (I think) – they are only good to us because we are good – they know how to mirror us very well. Their goodness is actually our goodness reflected back.

Chumps waste time (in my case 20 years) with spouses who are INCAPABLE of true love. We are worthy of it, they are just not able to give it to us. Things were good for you early on because you are a good person, you believed it was good. There is no shame in that. But when given the opportunity, your ex showed his true colors. Wishing you the best

NeverTrustAgain
NeverTrustAgain
4 years ago
Reply to  wildcat

I love that phrase, ” their goodness is actually our goodness reflected back.” I really thought my stbxh was a stand-up, good guy, we were together 37 years. He was kind, helpful, solid, reliable, etc. I haven’t seen that guy for 2-1/2 years since he started cheating with 20 year-old paid girls. It took me 11 of them to call it a pattern, it seemed like there was always an explanation, and I’m soooo embarrased not to have called this earlier. However, if I had called it earlier, I wouldn’t be as certain. This blog and all of you in CL nation are my salvation, thank you for reinforcing what I already knew but couldn’t admit.

Kara
Kara
4 years ago

He isn’t suffering from Stockholm Syndrome from an abusing OW. He chose to be with her. He is a narcissist who thinks that kind of thing is okay to do, because that’s what narcissists do.

She didn’t change him. She didn’t brainwash him, she didn’t hold a gun to his head and say “fuck me and leave your wife or I’ll shoot!” He chose it. That’s the hardest part of being chumped. Accepting that this is who he is. A lot of us have been there, including me. You’re so hurt you’re desperate to find an explanation for why anyone would do this. Something, anything, anyone, to tell you WHY. Anything other than “he’s an asshole and he chose it.” The simplest answer is the right one, and it’s the hardest to accept. He is an asshole, and he chose it.

This was him, as he always was. This is him as he always will be. The thing about narcissists is they like to cycle through people like spare parts. They keep people around who are of use, until they are no longer of use. You got cancer, therefore you stopped being of good use to him. You couldn’t serve him if you have cancer. He would have to take care of you and taking care of others is an affront to the senses of narcissists. So once he realized he’d actually have to do something for you, he dropped you and found someone else who will now be of use. Until she needs something and then he will drop her too.

Narcissists rarely hold down meaningful relationships. Even marriages with them are transactional. If you’re going to be an Amazon Chump, I recommend looking for books on healing from a relationship with a narcissist. Don’t worry about diagnosing him. Worry about healing yourself.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Kara

He’s an asshole, and he chose it. AMEN!
Thank you <3

Bloomingwithouthim
Bloomingwithouthim
4 years ago

I still can feel the gut wrenching sorrow I felt when I realized that my ex was just an evil, very, very bad person. When I started to count the number of other women and had to get STD testing I thought a might throw up for days on end. When I realized that not only had he been evil to me, but he had treated at least one of the OW so bad that she ended up medicated I was stunned. When I realized that I had chosen to believe lies, that the truth was there all along the way I wanted to die.
Narc, psychopath, con-artist???
Doesn’t really matter. He is a fuckwit. I was married to the devil and after three years no contact with Satan my life is a beautiful thing.

Kara
Kara
4 years ago

Yeah that’s the thing: Narcissists are equal-opportunity assholes. They treat everyone they come across like this. My first cheater treated me horribly and I was in therapy for a good seven months, dealing with severe depression and suicidal ideation. He had multiple APs, treated them all like shit. He got one of them pregnant and she miscarried because of stress caused by shit he did.

This was a long time ago, but a couple years after it happened, I found out she hates him as much as I do now. At the time he was with her she thought the sun shone out his ass. That’s how I felt when I met him too.

Narcissists do that. They come into your life all shiny and chrome, but in reality they’re selfish pieces of shit who truly do not care, but they treat everyone the same so you can find some solace in the fact that it really is not you.

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
4 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Hi Kara,
I am sorry that you were treated so badly.
Although I imagine that some narcissists treat all people badly, I am not sure that all narcissists do this. I am sure that my last boyfriend emotionally abused me (and, based on what he said, others) and am fairly certain that he is a very sparkly covert narcissist. I imagine that he treats his current wife like royalty as he greatly admires her—she is young and amazing—they probably have a baby together now or will soon, which will bond him to her, and he is a coward, afraid of people who he considers more valuable:desirable than him and afraid of people like me who he considers less valuable and desirable but is too afraid to tell them (me) that he wants to leave them but is keeping them around until the greener grass on the other side of the fence becomes available.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
4 years ago

When my ex had the emotional affair I put most of the blame on the OW. She came after him hard and was practically begging him to sleep with her. She was constantly texting him and sending him gifts, etc. I am pretty sure he resisted that time although tempted. Perhaps she did change him as she was the one who got him addicted to that level of attention and admiration and she is also the one who put it in his head that if I failed to satisfy him he had other options. Still, it was his own insecurities that made him crave and be vulnerable to that attention in the first place. Years later on DDay my first instinct was to blame Schmoopie for coming after him as well. The reality is that he was already looking to cheat and as I found out later had already cheated with another Schmoopie. Before that Schmoopie he was apparently regretting that he hadn’t physically cheated with emotional Schmoopie. Certainly the Schmoopie he left me for was also aggressive, had been looking to cheat herself and pick me danced to win a “prize” she really had no right too. I can’t really claim, however, that she changed him. She was just in the right place at the right time and willing to fuck somebody else’s husband. My husband is to blame. I will say, however, that even if she didn’t cause my husband to turn into an asshole she’s still a selfish self-centered home wrecking slut with no morals, no compassion and no sense of decency.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
4 years ago

PS. I also thought it was a md life crisis and I just needed to wait it out. I still think that might have played a part in all of this as he had other patterns and behaviors that fit as well, but I also now realize that it is completely irrelevant. It he as having a mid life crisis, he chose to try and make himself feel better by hurting the people he was supposed to love and that is not ok no matter how unhappy you are.

KarenE
KarenE
4 years ago

Mid-life crisis isn’t actually a thing. Mental health practicioners and researchers don’t recognize it, it’s just not real.

The reality is, assholes will be assholes, at any time of life. Aging and responsibilities and boredom are particularly hard for narcs, so they often freak out and let their asshole flag fly in late middle age, but the non-disordered population doesn’t go through this. We may sometimes question some of our life choices and want to make changes, but we do that in ways that don’t turn other people’s lives dramatically upside down, while blaming those other people.

KB22
KB22
4 years ago
Reply to  KarenE

Your comment reminds me of something my mother said years ago that stuck with me. Old people (senior citizens) that are nasty, mean & cruel were also nasty mean & cruel when they were younger. Age has nothing to do with it.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
4 years ago

Sorry, that should have been ex husband.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
4 years ago

“He was selfish with his time.”

This was a clue to what lurked behind his mask of respectability. He was selfish with his time. You say “he took care of [you and the kids] in every way.” But that’s not true. He may have gone to work and produced the income for a nice lifestyle. He may have made it possible to buy a nice home, go on nice vacations, wear nice clothes, drive nice cars. But he was selfish with the most precious commodity of all—his time. Only you, right now, know what you mean by that statement. What you are missing is that for a long while, your X was willing to play at being a family man, with the wife, kids, house, car, vacations.

You have grown and college-age children. So he completed his checklist. “Marry a chumpy woman and have kids.” Now he’s hit the reset button. He doesn’t have to pay child support. The kids are grown. He stuck around long enough for the doctors to cure your cancer, so you can go to work and take care of yourself. Meanwhile, he hits the reset button and gets to experience the limerence, the infatuation, the high of the first stage of the narcissistic relationship, where everything is the best ever and nobody loves like they love. It’s an illusion, but it’s all he’s capable of. This time, he picked one who already has kids so he won’t have to support them. Someone else is paying child support. And the AP has a job. It’s light duty.

My grandfather in the course of his lifetime abandoned 3 wives, 7 children, and 2 step children as the kids hit adolescence. He was entirely predictable. He loved them and doted on them and (by the last one, the wife had the paying job and he stayed home and did whatever). None of these women seduced him or kidnapped him or held his hostage. It was HIM. He could “fall in love” and pretend to be a husband and father. But he was a hollow man who didn’t loved as I understand that term. Your husband is the same guy, only with more money and more polish. The fact that the he ended the marriage while you were on a trip says what a terrible coward he is, and how empty at the core. You were married to that. You just didn’t see that what was on the surface was his social mask.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

You are SO RIGHT! I didn’t even realize that I had put that sentence in the letter?!?! It was the BIGGEST red flag ever and I thought that was ‘just how he was’. Great response! Thank you! <3

MissBailey
MissBailey
4 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

You are so right LAJ! The Dickhead was selfish with his time. I just realized that. For our marriage, I was so grateful for the times that I realized that he “had come back” to me. I don’t know what he was doing or what he did when he would act so standoffish or be emotionally distant but I knew he would cycle back to me. His sinister sister, his so-called friends, work, even his son – they all rated higher than me. They were used to triangulate me but I didn’t know what it meant then. I do now. Sometime the realizations of what happened are like tiny stabs to the heart.

RVA
RVA
4 years ago

This is one of the worst letters and best responses on this blog after “how to fix my picker.” I hear these stories on the dating circuit all the time and it blows me away how cruel people can be. Best of luck neversawitcoming33. I hope your next chapter ends with “happily ever after.”

NoRainNoFlowers
NoRainNoFlowers
4 years ago

As I dealt with the fallout of my divorce, I found it very difficult to accept that my ex is really a very shallow asshole because then I’d have no choice but to admit I picked him twice. I was abused and then I took back my abuser. I did the whole untangling business, took him back after an affair, marriage counseling etc…I had to work very hard to accept the truth about him. He is abusive. He hurts people for his own selfish pleasures. He doesn’t care. I had to work even harder to forgive myself for being so willfully stupid, self sacrificing and gullible. I think it’s hard, but very necessary, to forgive yourself and let go of the stories about why and accept what is. I had to face facts and reality without the rose colored glasses and that’s rough when you’ve created a fantasy world where you believed things seemed great for a long time and wanted the investment of your love and loyalty to matter.

Self forgiveness was the path back to peace for me. Why they cheat doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change anything. What changes is you when you accept the truth, move on and forgive yourself for being a chump. That’s freedom.

NeverTrustAgain
NeverTrustAgain
4 years ago

You nailed it. “You believed things seemed great for a long time and wanted the investment of your love and loyalty to matter.” 37 years of love and loyalty was hard to break free from. Has my whole adult life been a lie? Sure seemed like it but I’m starting to figure it out. Thank you!

Deee
Deee
4 years ago

Hi – I like your name. That is how I feel although I know that I trust too easily (except sales people). But what I will never do is put myself in a super vulnerable position. I can’t ever imagine living with someone again – to me is would be risking too much.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago

NoRainNoFlowers, this is very insightful. Thank you. I also created a fantasy world that was perfect, and you are right. It’s hard to let that go and admit that it was indeed just a fantasy. Good advice!

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
4 years ago

NSIC,

I also have a hard time admitting that my last relationship was really just a fantasy. I was the only one who was emotionally invested. To him, I was just a disposable item that provided him some perks. If he had been able to buy a blow up doll that blew up his ego and he would have felt comfortable taking to company functions, he would never have dated me. Heck, toward the end, he even told me that he was uncomfortable being seen with me—yet he didn’t abandon me then/right away. He waited until he was sure that he could ‘secure’ the young woman he became his current (second) wife.

why
why
4 years ago
Reply to  RockStarWife

He was uncomfortable being seen with you??? What a dick.

Deee
Deee
4 years ago

Yes, I am still working on the self-forgiveness. Especially as I have a brother and sister in law who couldn’t stand my ex. My SIL claims to have seen right through him and while I appreciate their support it is hard to listen as it makes it sound like if I were more perceptive or intelligent or whatever that I wouldn’t have been with a fuckwit who did this. I do tell everyone now though that after reading this site it seems almost anyone can be a cheating asshole.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Deee

Deee! I am with you! I am amazed at how many people say to me now that they never liked my husband. WHAT?? Why didn’t they tell me that BEFORE?!?!? Best of luck to you!

kimmy
kimmy
4 years ago

Neversawitcoming………………It takes a while, a few years after the divorce, to finally come to realize that the person you wished him to be (imagined him to be) was only in your mind. So many people, including me, thought my ex-husband was a wonderful person. After discovering that he was leading a double life, I too diagnosed him with a midlife crisis, among other things. I think it is very normal for chumps to do. You try to figure out just how this happened. It’s unimaginable. Unfortunately, there is no real explanation to be found and there is no changing who they are. It’s really rather simple. An opportunity for a roll in the sack presents itself and they take it! Period! This is who they always were and they could not keep the mask on any longer.

So very sorry he did this to you. You don’t deserve it. He’s not a good person. Mourn your pain and move on. You are strong and you deserve better than what he offered. Peace!

JWH
JWH
4 years ago

She didn’t change him, she REVEALED him. Like “The Portait of Dorian Grey”.

She can keep him, right?

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago
Reply to  JWH

@JWH – Bingo

ChumpedPunk
ChumpedPunk
4 years ago

Don’t they always pick the worst times to reveal their true nature? I found out I am pregnant on the day of my Grandmother’s funeral (which I was unable logistically to attend). So going through a wide range of very big emotions. I needed my partner more and more, but was unable to talk about a lot of what I was feeling because of how deep it all was. 10 weeks in to my pregnancy, while I am at work, over a text message he tells me he is leaving me for the ho-worker. Can we say asshole?
The only thing we can do is grieve the loss of what we thought we had. She didn’t kill the man I married, he never existed. They can only keep the facade going for so long.
And yes, I still hold animosity for them both. He for walking out on his child and supportive loving wife, and her for happily moving in on a married man and helping him to walk out on his family. Keeping myself off of Dateline is definitely still a priority.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
4 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedPunk

The “worst time” is when they have to step up and be adults, be partners, and be focused on the needs of someone else. And they are 0 for 3 on those metrics of character, maturity and capacity for love.

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago

Oh snap @neversawitcoming33. On my second recurrence of endometrial cancer (2010, 2013, 2014) when I was advised to start palliative radiotherapy to ‘buy more time’, the Cockroach exited the oncology office with me, no hug or consolation and told me ‘You’ll have to plan your own funeral; I don’t know what you want’. The Vulture (the receptionist in the large church where he was a facility manager, whose husband had left her for another woman) threw herself at him (‘I don’t want you to walk this dark path alone’) and they commenced a four year affair. We separated at 2 years, went to counselling, and I naively believed (and was rigorously gaslighted to believe) the affair was over for the following 2 years – which of course it wasn’t. In two days I celebrate my 4 month Splitaversary.

I was raging at The Vulture for years – how could she do this to me when her husband had done it to her? (all the while claiming the affair was ‘what God wanted’) How could the Cockroach do this to me? It wasn’t until I found an excellent therapist to help me navigate my resultant PTSD and listened to some podcasts by Relational Harm Reduction Radio that not only the four year affair but my entire 26 year marriage start to make sense. I had married a covert narcissist incapable of love and empathy and only capable of meeting his own needs but manipulating those around him. To everyone he ever met he seemed the greatest guy in the world and he’s still scrambling to make people believe we parted ways amicably and that their relationship only started after we mutually decided to go our separate ways (so untrue – I kicked him out on his lying, deceiving, gas lighting ass with evidence he could not longer deny, refute or gaslight me past).

Bottom line is this. I am so glad that I now understand that he is defective and genuinely on the psychopathy spectrum. It helps me to move past the torture of ‘how and why could he do this to me??’ Because he’s genuinely not capable of better. But that’s not a free pass. He made horrible choices ever step of the way. Yes the Vulture targeted him proactively the minute she learned about my prognosis (I have truckloads of evidence). But HE was the pathetic and defective fucktard who held me hostage in my marriage, put the same lips, hands and whatever else all over his wife who he love bombed, lied and promised ‘many more years to’ (and told me he was NEVER going to leave me despite telling his best friend / soul mate / Pet Vulture he was in love with her but then telling me he had ‘no idea what that means’). The truth is he has NEVER been the ‘world’s greatest guy’ his narcissistic needs led him to believe everyone he was. He has always been defective and he doesn’t have any clue about his position on that psychopathy spectrum but he won’t get any free passes from me on that.

He did this to me and our marriage, he can’t be fixed and I’m so glad he’s her problem now. But honestly I also take responsibility for letting him stay in my life for so long when my instincts told me the truth despite the constant manipulation. I am recovering from the gas lighting now and moving forward. She is an opportunisitic Vulture, he is a lowlife Cockroach and I am finally freeing myself of them both.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Teacup Storm

Bless you, Teacupstorm! Your story is HORRIFIC. Nobody deserves to go through the hell you have been through. I am proud of you for kicking him out and taking care of yourself and I am glad you have been able to find some answers through your therapist. Best of luck to you and I pray you continue to kick cancer’s ass too! <3

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago

@neversawitcoming33 Thank you so much for the kindness and compassion of your response. I am so glad I figured out that evicting this creep was my ONLY way forward. The revelations about his character disorder have made it all that much easier for me to let go and move into a better future without him. So grateful for your kind words. Every blessing for your journey x

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
4 years ago
Reply to  Teacup Storm

I hope your cancer is gone or in remission so that you have many years to enjoy your new and improved life without that turd in it.

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago

@Chumpinreocvery I have adopted the mantra #OutliveTheVultures

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago

@Chumpinrecovery Alas life is rarely so neat and tidy, but my condition is ‘stable’ and I’m living my best life. In truth, he was just another tumour and one that I could cut out more easily than the one that remains

BowTie
BowTie
4 years ago

I think that a lot of us can sing harmony on this song. Especially those of us like me who spent a lot of time over in the RIC world trying to untangle the skein.

Was Mme YogaPants tempted away by Senor Moneybags and his seasons tickets to junior hockey and discount priced yogurt? I’ll never know.

What I do know is that she knowingly, repeatedly made the choice to pick him over the man who had devoted more than half of his life to her.

Was she suffering from MLC / peri-menopause or was she just a selfish asshole? Current money is on the latter because lots of people get through the others without cheating.

BT

Traffic_Spiral
Traffic_Spiral
4 years ago
Reply to  BowTie

But discount yogurt, man – yogurt! Who could resist?

Rebe
Rebe
4 years ago
Reply to  BowTie

Well said, CL.

However, I am piqued by the idea of Stockholm Syndrome. I wouldnt have applied it to the cheater but perhaps to the chump. I feel that I may have been caught up in defending and sympathizing with my own cheating husband despite my own devastation and loss of freedom. Something to think about.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Rebe

Rebe – definitely this too! Actually, my therapist showed me that DENIAL is a real thing and that your mind will only let you absorb what your body can handle at the time. I was in DENIAL for a long time and tried to explain all of his behavior away. CLASSIC spackle! Stockholm syndrome all around! lol

Elderly Chump
Elderly Chump
4 years ago

This is what happened to me. I call it my ‘shock and stupid’ phase. Took over a year to move out of that one. I blamed the OW and God because that, to me, meant that he and I were the victims and could face this and come out of it together and stronger than ever. Kept the pain at bay and let me feel like we were still a ‘team’ only thing puzzling to me at the time was why he kept leaving – for her. I can laugh at it now.

I had studied and talked about denial for years as well as the stages of grieving, I was a trained therapist prior to becoming a wife and mother, but now that the real thing had hit me, it is anything but textbook. What a wild ride! I still find it fascinating on some level though to know how our own minds can fool us and I can feel the difference between my intellectual mind that is in control and my emotional mind that is all about feelings and is the one that finally got me to see the light due to the pain I couldn’t stop with my intellect which was trying with all of its might to rationalize all of his crazy, crazy behavior.

Struggling
Struggling
4 years ago

Good Lord, except for the cancer, your letter reads word for word like my story. He lost his mind, she’s an evil sociopath who fought tooth and nail to steal him, I’ll love him through it, he ruined a special event when he told me (taking our oldest to college for the first time), all of it. These cheaters are all the same. My story is four years old. Nothing like tons of time to make you see things the way they really are: he’s an asshole, he’s always been an asshole, the red flags were there. Do yourself a favor: Any time you remember something shitty he said or did, at any time during your marriage or dating, write it down. Make a list. When you remember some buried asshole memory, add it to your list. My list is pages long, took me a few months to make, and makes for hilarious reading these days. What in the world did I ever see in that guy? I have no earthly idea. For the rest of my life, I’ll never see him as anything but the monster that he really is. You already dropped a hint as to your cheater having always been an asshole in your letter here, “selfish with his time”. So write down an example of that to start, and let it blossom from there.

Part of your letter caught my attention: “He has lost his friends, lost most of his family, lost the respect of his children, lost his job, walked away from his home…..all for this girl???” For the girl? No: for his ego…. and for what he prizes above all else in his life: his immediate personal happiness that he feels entitled to. Think about that: he doesn’t give a shit about you, about commitment, about family, about your kids, just His Own Happiness. He has spent months/years plotting your doom, because he doesn’t love you, and doesn’t share your values. Trust me, he’s very pleased with himself right now

So sorry for what you’re going through. It gets better, I promise. You can get down the road out of this hell faster if you stop deluding yourself about who he really is… a selfish asshole

Beetle
Beetle
4 years ago

Block, delete and don’t read. He could be setting you up to dump again. No alimony and no #SS.

Trudy
Trudy
4 years ago

I recall shaking my head in wondrous confusion and telling him I wanted my ‘real’ husband back. And it was me! Me! He was doing this to, not some stranger! But you know what? He knew exactly what he was doing. And yeah, she was definitely on a man with wallet hunt. But he owns all the shit that came tumbling down. But soon enough when you chill a bit that selfish with his time thought will open up to the many and myriad ways he was selfish. Yes, we can nurse them through heart surgery and job troubles and mid life depression but oh honey don’t you dare get sick and need any of that ‘sickness and health’ backatcha caring. Because you will never understand his level of selfish. And worse it’s so banal. There is no compelling backstory to the why. They work with the mindlessness of a shark approaching a normal day’s feeding. There just aren’t real deep thoughts involved here. And you realize how little ownership was involved in the marriage and family you practically created all by yourself. Water finds its own level. He’s found it with the right skank ass who he is certain to feel secretly superior to because his family with you wasn’t even as close to screwed up as hers. So all has ended up as it should. Doesn’t make it less painful but sometimes it just is what it is. He’ll get his Willy waltz eventually.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  Trudy

Trudy! I love this response! ‘Water finds its own level’! PERFECT! ‘Sickness and health backatcha’ is ALSO perfect!
You’re right. They know EXACTLY what they are doing. I hate that this has happened to so many of us, but it’s nice not to feel alone in the battle. Thank you <3

thrive
thrive
4 years ago
Reply to  Trudy

trudy, what is a willy waltz? i learn so many interesting terms from CN. it is so true that fuckwit chose an OW who he could feel superior to – even told me she “needed” him. she since dumped him for another middle-aged needy man and he moved on to another single-mom who likes to party. good luck to her.

ChumpNeedsSunlight
ChumpNeedsSunlight
4 years ago

Oh I so relate to this. I was there too – look at all we have! All we’ve built together as a family, as partners! How could he throw all of this away? Mid-life crisis!

Nope. What I finally realized is that I was just projecting my values, the things in life that matter to me, on to him. He did not value those same things – honesty, family, togetherness, kids. And I assumed we shared those values our whole marriage – turned out to be a wrong assumption.

You think – how can he give all of this up? Because he doesn’t value those things like you do.

Hang in there. It gets better. He is a fake. But what you invested and what you felt were real. Now you have a new chance to surround yourself with people who value the same things you do. Hugs.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago

This is exactly right, ChumpNeedsSunlight! My XH actually said in The Divorce Letter, “…..we don’t share the same values”. I remember reading it and saying to myself, “WHAT?!!!!”

I lived out my true values every single day — honesty, family, togetherness, kids, faithfulness, faith in God. He lived out his true values behind my back in his second life.

AwakeningDreamer
AwakeningDreamer
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

Mine said the same: and that he and the AP shared the same values- lols! At the time I was pick me dancing and felt so hurt, desperate even to prove that I shared values until, finally, I realised he was in part correct!

Of course he and I didn’t share values because he doesn’t have any, neither does she! Lols! I’m sure that will never come back to bite them ????

ChumpNeedsSunlight
ChumpNeedsSunlight
4 years ago
Reply to  Martha

Yes exactly! Me too.

I think the saddest realization was that the kids only mattered for their adoration of him and for how they improved his image. Not as individual people with their own thoughts and feelings and desires. Now he’s constantly trying to get our daughter (9 year old) to be what he wants (so he can brag about her skills and show everyone what a good dad he is?) and not asking/listening to what she wants. ????

They truly are so selfish it is hard for us to comprehend.

Martha
Martha
4 years ago

Yes, they are hard to understand, because we thankfully don’t think and operate like them.

Yep, the kids are for image management too. Years ago my daughter got “crowned” for a little girls group she belong to. It was all very sweet. Well as her parents we had to give a speech about her. The XH has a better way with words then I do, so I said it was fine if he wrote the speech and also read it aloud. I remember reading it after he was done. He naturally embellished a story to make himself out to be this great dad. They way he worded the story, he made it sound like he put our daughter to bed every single night for just about her entire life and whispered something sweet in her ear. The TRUTH was that he probably only put her to bed at the most five times her entire life. I didn’t say anything about the speech not being 100% true, because I’d get the “I can’t do anything right!” comment or something else that would turn it back on me. So, I let him spew yet another lie and I’m sure he got lots of narcissistic supply/attention/adoration when I’m sure lots of people were thinking and probably saying what a great dad he is. Barf! It’s disgusting someone would use their own children for image management. 🙁

ivyleaguechump
ivyleaguechump
4 years ago

Yes, the OW made the first moves….but my STBX jumped in with both feet. He can’t see three feet in front of his dick and has NO impulse control. And he can be VERY charming.

Still, the revelation of his main affair and other side-pieces stripped away the charm and showed me the true person. I won’t call him a man. The men I admire are strong in every sense of the word.

MyRedSandals
MyRedSandals
4 years ago

Neversawitcoming33,

When Chump Lady says, “They flit at the superficial level, but they don’t do substance”, please believe her!

Two sessions with our last ditch effort marriage counselor and he already knew my XH’s true character… that there was literally nothing below his epidermis. No substance. No depth. No integrity. Superficial in every way. Just someone posing as a respectable family man. And I realized in a terribly painful moment that I’d been making excuses for him for 40 years. He was content to see me disappear by fractions, day after day, year after year, until I was reduced to a one-dimensional, colorless, odorless and tasteless version of the person I used to be… someone like the character Julia Roberts played in “The Runaway Bride”, who didn’t even know what kind of eggs she liked to eat… or like the poor froggy in the pan of water; he didn’t see what was happening in time to escape and ended up on someone’s dinner plate. My lack of insight, my bottomless bucket of second chances, my steadfast refusal to toss in the towel… that’s all on me, but I won’t ever make that mistake again.

I’ve been in your shoes, trying to untangle the skein, to figure out how this mess could’ve possibly happened. But there’s simply no way to convert illogical and irrational into logical and rational. It just is what it is. Remember, they’ll never be able to provide a satisfactory answer to the questions of “Why?” or “How?”… that would require depth, integrity, and a moral code, something that’s sorely lacking in the perpetrators to whom we were married.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

MyRedSandals – YES to the froggie in the boiling water! That’s exactly what I was. Wow. I also relate to your marriage counselor experience. We saw two different counselors and they BOTH saw him for what he was within minutes. In the car on the way home from the first one, he actually said to me, ‘I’m not listening to that guy – he doesn’t know US’. He knew that guy had seen right through him and I fell for it and we went to a different counselor. Jeesh. #suchachump

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
4 years ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

MRS,
I think that the behavior of many of the jerks described here is logical and rational. These jerks will do whatever it takes to get what they want and feel no remorse for going after it. Ethical and considerate is another story.

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

@MyRedSandals I so relate to this. I understood it so much better when I figured out he was a covert narcissist with major character defects and zero depth. That’s the how and why right there. I stopped beating myself up. I chose the wrong guy and let him manipulate me and pretend to love me not just for the 4 years of the affair but for the 26 years of the marriage. So liberating to make that realisation that he’s just not capable of substance, depth, integrity, bonding, commitment or love. Toodles Motherfucker – you’re a narcissistic cardboard cutout of a man. I now feel sorry for you that you don’t understand yourself or the fact that your lying, cheating brain is broken and that you’ll never have a relationship that is anything deeper than an ego-stroke.

AwakeningDreamer
AwakeningDreamer
4 years ago
Reply to  Teacup Storm

Cardboard Cutout would make a great name for your ex Teacup!

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago

@AwakeningDreamer I think it would work for most of them.

Chumpnomore99
Chumpnomore99
4 years ago

If you truly love someone, you would not cheat on that person and hurt that person. The cheaters love themselves more than anyone else including their AP.

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago
Reply to  Chumpnomore99

@Chumpnomore99 This! They are not capable of love at all. All ‘relationships’ they have are just started and sustained to meet whatever they they perceive as their greatest need at the time. They make attachments but do not have the capacity to reciprocate any deep emotional bonds or to have empathy. Narcissists are all about themselves. I’d love to see some sort of study that determines what percentage of men who cheat are legit narcissists (often who look like ‘the best guy on the planet’ by their own design to meet their primary needs of adoration and approval) on the psychopathy spectrum. Mine was. I used to thank him after D-Day 1 for ‘choosing to put our marriage first’ and he replied with ‘I will always do my best’ (same guy who had to put post-it notes around his car saying ‘I will honour my marriage’ to remind him not to cheat …) The question of ‘how and why could he do this to me’ was eating me alive until I realised he was never capable of better. His best turned out to be keeping his affair hidden better than he did last time so as not to lose me or my cake or kibbles. Not good enough and I finally figured out living in hope that he could do better was like wishing for a totally different husband beyond who this person could ever be. He’s broken and can’t be fixed. I’m damaged but can now repair and move forwards.

MissBailey
MissBailey
4 years ago
Reply to  Chumpnomore99

This all day!!!

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
4 years ago

Stockholm Syndrome?

No, darling.

Have you seen Tracy’s cartoon of the shark with a human mask? That’s what he is, that’s what he was.

But it’s good advice to write down all the shitty things he did and said, it will help you internalise the fact he was *never* who you thought he was, just a shark with a mask. ????

I’m so sorry. Hugs to you. ❤️xx

CC
CC
4 years ago

I completely relate to this story as my husband too cheated on me and left me while I was going through treatment for breast cancer. He even started a new family while I was going through treatment and almost single handedly taking care of our daughter. The woman he is now with, by all accounts was desperate to have children and she saw an opportunity. She was so desperate she clung to a person with shitty character and defended him because I was so awful why should he have to stay with me during cancer? He didn’t deserve to be punished forever for his mistakes (actual words she said to me). I guess that means she has shitty character too. Anyway, she now has 2 kids with a guy who over-drafted his checking by $300 last month. He’s behind $1000 in reimbursements to me. He spends $400/mo in bars. I’m sure she knows nothing of this. Someday it will blow up in her face. Who cares? I used to but then I realized that she’s not better than me, just more desperate.

Traveling the World
Traveling the World
4 years ago

I, too, initially blamed the OM for casting his evil spell on her, corrupting a naive young woman into despicable things.
I later found out there were other OM, going back to a few months after we were married.

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy it any more. Not even a little bit. People have agency. Somehow, I faced temptation, and no one “corrupted” me.

I think a hard truth, that we chumps don’t like to hear, is that the people we thought were good and wholesome just weren’t. Good and wholesome people know that these things are wrong. I think modern life makes it very easy for someone who is actually bad or shallow to appear moral and deep. If someone can be that easily swayed into say, cheating and then abandoning a spouse who has cancer, that person was never really that good to begin with.

NotANiceChump
NotANiceChump
4 years ago

“I think a hard truth, that we chumps don’t like to hear, is that the people we thought were good and wholesome just weren’t.”

This is the crux. It’s soul shifting to realize this. My eyes were really opened about the power of projection–how we can project our values on to others so much that we can mask another’s true identity. It’s a tough habit to break, and once you realize you’ve done this your ability to trust others just really goes down the toilet, because you can no longer trust your judgement of others. It’s been years for me and I still can’t trust my judgement of others. My inner circle has gotten very small as a result.

KarenE
KarenE
4 years ago

I had the slow reveal, rather than the shocking sudden appearance of the selfish, entitled asshole. Over the years I just kept lowering the bar, spackling, telling myself he was immature, he had a messed-up upbringing, he was kind of aspberger-y and bad at reading people, he didn’t understand that giving as well as receiving is a HUGE source of happiness, etc etc etc.

By the time of Affair #2 and my kicking him out, my expectations of him were pretty damned low. But I did still believe he loved his kids and would be there for them.

You can guess how that worked out.

It was only while having an argument w/him, during one of his many hoover attempts, that I realised that we really, truly did not share the same values. AND NEVER HAD. His morals and values were ALL relative and contingent on his entitlement. He did NOT value the kids, even, never mind me or the lovely life we had built together. Honesty? Family? Friendship? He SHOWED, clearly and repeatedly, that he did not give a single fuck about any of that.

I eventually realized that he has no values, goals, or convictions of his own, other than his own selfish feel-good in the moment. He is hollow, empty, and desperate to fill that emptiness. Except of course he is like a child that is hungry and keeps eating candy floss, while there is real, nutritious food right beside him. He takes on the colours of whoever he’s with; their values, life goals, projects, preferences. Unless ‘crabby’ is a personality, he doesn’t much have one.

So while he was with me, despite being negative, critical and moody, and quite self-centered, he did manage to look like he was invested in what we had. He looked like a reasonable, responsible, honest guy who loved his kids and his wife, cared for his family and friends, etc.

I was propping him up and providing the guidance and spackling, so he could look like that. None of it came from him, and none of it was actually that important to him.

Neversawitcoming, I’m betting your Ex is like that. Empty, hollow. YOU and your life made him look pretty normal.

And ya know what one of the biggest signs of that is? You are blaming someone else for HIS CHOICES, you are saying this ‘wasn’t reeeaaalllllly him’. THAT IS WHAT NARCS DO. They ALWAYS blame others for anything that makes them look bad or doesn’t turn out the way they like or damages something or hurts someone. It’s always someone else’s fault. He’s taught you to DO THAT FOR HIM.

Step back, open your eyes. That was really him. And since he was capable of doing that, especially at such a terrible time for you, then the only logical conclusion is that HE WAS ALWAYS LIKE THAT.

playedlikeafiddle
playedlikeafiddle
4 years ago
Reply to  KarenE

Your first paragraph is SPOT ON what I’m coming to terms with myself. Now during the devalue/discard. Yes he did seem to take a dive off the deep end. But it was like the crescendo to the weirdly horrific symphony he has been working on for years. The slow build up finally had the blow up.

I attributed it to immaturity and our having children as bringing up bad feelings about his horrible childhood and the strained relationship he has with his dad. Ha. Now he’s even worse than his own father.

neversawitcoming33
neversawitcoming33
4 years ago
Reply to  KarenE

KarenE – AMEN! He was EXACTLY like that, and I was a good person, like you. Thank God we have seen the light! I just hate it had to be in such a heart-wrenching way. Best of luck to you! <3

NotANiceChump
NotANiceChump
4 years ago
Reply to  KarenE

ALL THIS. Perfectly said. I often say my ex was a Pinnochio–but he never really could become a real boy.

Teacup Storm
Teacup Storm
4 years ago
Reply to  NotANiceChump

@NotANiceChump Love this Pinnochio reference – perfect!

Leslie
Leslie
4 years ago

How can you say he’s NOT “brainwashed” while simultaneously offering support to us for having been “brainwashed/chumped” ??

NotANiceChump
NotANiceChump
4 years ago
Reply to  Leslie

I guess a shorter way to put this is that, generally, chumps get duped, not brainwashed. The cheater in this story was not brainwashed, he is acting out his true character traits that he chose to no longer suppress…for any number of reasons (and likely was exercising all along in some way or another that went undetected by his loyal wife).

NotANiceChump
NotANiceChump
4 years ago
Reply to  Leslie

brainwashing requires getting someone to adopt radically different beliefs through coercion. Chumps don’t do this. We end up being hurt because we have NOT adopted new beliefs and our reliable old values get trampled on.

I think what CL asserts is that cheaters do not adopt new values through coercion—they in fact have flawed values that they manage to hide (or get ignored) for years…decades even. It’s just that they can’t suppress these shitty values anymore, so they do stuff like cheat and lie. Which many of us come to figure out they’d been doing some version of all along.

Brainwashing requires a FORCED SHIFT but you can’t force someone to shift something they’ve been all along.

I suspect as time goes by this writer will come to see all the red flags she missed earlier that showed her husband’s true character.

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
4 years ago

^^^^
This.

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
4 years ago

That was in reply to KarenE.

Leslie
Leslie
4 years ago

I have no desire to be a “shit disturber” on “YOUR SITE” but I can no longer “ignore” ALL the “mixed messages(advice)” that are being widely AND freely communicated by “highly educated professionals” AND highly respected people like you with “popular” blogs…

Traffic_Spiral
Traffic_Spiral
4 years ago
Reply to  Leslie

I’m sorry, but… what? No seriously, what? What did that even mean?

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
4 years ago
Reply to  Traffic_Spiral

????????

Captain Chumpy Chumperton
Captain Chumpy Chumperton
4 years ago
Reply to  Leslie

Leslie = Troll. Next…

Let go
Let go
4 years ago
Reply to  Leslie

And what college do you attend “Leslie”? How many beers have you had?

MedusaInMeh
MedusaInMeh
4 years ago
Reply to  Leslie

Obviously, you are in the wrong place, then. Move along.

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
4 years ago
Reply to  Leslie

Like Miss Bailey says.

Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out. ????????

MissBailey
MissBailey
4 years ago