How Do You Coparent with a Misogynist?
She has primary custody, but still has to coparent with her misogynist ex. Is there any way to ensure that his bigotry doesn’t affect their children?
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Hi Chump Lady,
I was hoping you could give me advice on how to raise kids, two boys and one girl: 11, 8 and 4.
How can I protect them from my ex’s misogynistic views?
He cheated multiple times throughout our marriage, including when I was pregnant and it all came out (I caught him) last year. We’re finishing up the divorce and I have 65% custody. He wants more, but I haven’t budged because I think he is a bad influence. He is very emotionally stunted and also has these really awful views about women, like they shouldn’t work if they have kids, they need to be serving their man, they should have a lot of kids. And he is controlling and uses religion as a weapon.
I am new to this whole parenting with a FW and I don’t exactly know how to combat and instill good values when I know he will teach the opposite. I do teach them my own values, but are there specific resources?
What advice do you have?
Raising Kids with a Misogynist
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Dear Raising Kids with a Misogynist,
I do not have very satisfying advice. We don’t control FWs. Or anyone else for that matter. I cannot make your toxic ex less toxic.
Sure, it would be great if God hit him with a bolt of enlightenment. Equal pay for equal work! Women are not disposable cum dumpsters for my pleasure! But sentient, caring human beings deserving of respect!
But God is very stingy with the decency conversions if this particular moment in history is anything to judge by. So, you’ll just have to contend with my standard advice:
Be the sane parent.
You’re enough. You don’t control him, but you do control the quality of your own parenting, so direct your attentions there. He’s a good example of a bad example. Be the good example. That matters a lot.
Right now, you’re fretting about what kind of influence he is, while neglecting to look at what a mighty example YOU are. YOU LEFT HIM. You’ve taught your children by example that being a shitty human being leads to consequences. As in, if you treat people like crap, they won’t tolerate your presence.
Rejecting subservience to a FW says more than any lecture you could give your kids on equality. Now, he’ll have to try his misogynistic claptrap on some other sucker.
Be the counter-narrative.
You’re showing up for your children. You’re setting a good example with your investment in them. Kids aren’t stupid. They know who’s there and who’s too busy jerking off to his OnlyFans account to take them to the orthodontist. (I’m extrapolating. I have no idea the specifics of your FW’s particular displays of fuckwittery, but chances are he’s not attending to the drudgery of book reports or other less-than-stellar aspects of childrearing.)
Coparenting, when you think of it, must be very galling to misogynists. Now, by the force of a court order, they have to show up for their children. This probably explains why so many of them enlist Schmoopies in the wife appliance role. How unsettling divorce must make them feel. Alone with three children? Whoever shall feed them? I, with my God-given superiority, am above sandwich preparation.
Let’s examine the threat.
He is very emotionally stunted
Then he doesn’t have the bandwidth to be much of an influence. No one wants to grow up to be emotionally stunted. No healthy person craves deeper contact with someone who is emotionally stunted — not when they’re getting their needs met from a sane parent.
and also has these really awful views about women, like they shouldn’t work if they have kids,
I assume you’ll be working and raising kids. Counter example accomplished. You won’t be economically dependent on a FW. Horrors.
they need to be serving their man
Healthy relationships are based on reciprocity and mutual respect. Master/servant relationships are not.
, they should have a lot of kids.
Isn’t it funny how FWs want to control our reproductive freedoms? Good thing his wandering dick is someone else’s problem. He can hardly cope with the three children he has. How does he expect to support a future brood (beyond banning women from the workplace)? Patriarchy is always fuzzy on the details of child support. It makes me think of that Mormon trad wife on TikTok who said:
My financial security was dependent on that man being in love with me. I never realized that him liking me or not liking me or finding me sexy… meant whether or not my children would eat.”
Right? Because ACTUALLY supporting children is never an independent obligation to FWs. Oh no, it depends on the subjugation of the mother. Be glad you’re free of this guy, but absolutely enforce his child support.
And he is controlling and uses religion as a weapon.
How much church he can drag them to with 35 percent custody? His views on religion are just that — his.
Also, I can tell you as a recovered preacher’s kid that church attendance and religious upbringing have very little to do with adult outcomes. Consider how many generations of people were taught by nuns and never became nuns… or stayed Catholic. You may be overestimating his power. Encourage free-thinking.
Speaking of free-thinking…
Love yourself.
You want to counteract that woman-hating message? Love yourself. Don’t internalize his misogyny. Treat your ex like the irrelevant embarrassment that he is, and rock your new life. Your kids will notice.
Be warned — he will try to control you, because FWs can’t help themselves. He’ll insult you, undermine you, do anything to regain that centrality that he lost. But don’t let him. You liberated yourself, and you can liberate your mind too.
I love this message from Ru Paul that showed up on my feed today.
Brilliant thoughts as usual, CL. The Ru Paul clip resonates too. When I was trying to lose weight, I would actively divert my eyes away from advertising posters featuring unhealthy fast food, so that I wouldn’t ruminate over what I couldn’t have. It’s the same with my FW. The spell and hold he has over me is lessening the more I zone out from looking at him (I don’t look him in the eyes now, just the top of his head) and actively not listening to what he says. It’s liberating.
That could be a Friday challenge — how do you tune FWs out?
Great idea! The more ideas, the merrier.
Yes, this was me, also with the religious aspect. Patriarchy is God’s way, you know.
My ex threatened divorce and financial devastation anytime we had a major fight. He said the kids and I would end up living in the van when he was done with me. Note the loving concern for the kids. It wasn’t a constant threat, but that was his default when he wasn’t getting his way. When I pointed out that “God hates divorce,” he would assert male privilege. Being male, he had a right, you know.
And so we ended up divorcing after he left. He said it was because I was a rebel who wouldn’t submit by joining him where he ran off to. At one point after he left, he told me that if we reconciled, he’d take away my phone and computer so that I would properly learn to give him honor. I had already refused to reconcile but considered that further proof that I didn’t belong with him, ever. And the thought of relocating to a place where he was the only person I knew? Nope. He even talked about entirely cutting off our college kids to fend for themselves because they were supposedly a distraction.
My divorce attorney noted that my case had what he called “the four A’s”: abandonment, abuse, addiction, and adultery. That and patriarchy made for a toxic mess. The marriage had to end.
Wow, I have to bookmark this comment for the “four A’s”. Thanks!
I found out later that it wasn’t unique to him, but it certainly summarizes the big issues that destroy marriages. My ex was also a diagnosed borderline/narcissist with a history of suicidality, so there truly wasn’t much left to work with.
I’m still getting automatic payments, so I assume that he’s still alive.
Raising Kids – You’ve been through a lot and finalizing the divorce is the beginning of healing. It also marks the formalization of co-parenting with your ex (consider parallel parenting).
If you look around, you’ll see many mothers in your situation. And, to be honest, many of these women are still married to man who hopes for a trad wife. You are not the anomaly.
Find the women who are doing it well. Are they practicing self-care, creating community, sharing childcare, pursuing new learning and independence?
Your children will see, not only a sane parent, but a stark contrast to their father’s limited world view.
I strongly suggest you limit your conversations to the kids and that you communicate about the kids through software such as My family Wizard or through email so you have a written record in real time about what he says, does, asks, demands, and fails to do. Use emails to yourself to document any of his transgressions.
What I and other coparents see is that the other parent will hoard the clothes, toys, supplies etc. that you send the kids in, and return them in dirty clothes that aren’t insufficient for the weather. He, not you, should provide the kids when they are at his house. If he pulls this, it might be helpful to causally take a picture on your phone when the kids leave and when they come back to you. Don’t make a big deal of this. With kids this age, you might even be able to pass it off as a fun thing, not that you’re documenting how in 20 degree weather, they came back to you in tshirts without the winter coats you sent them in.
The best book I found on parenting was “Parents Who Cheat: How Children and Adults are Affected When Their Parents Are Unfaithful” by Ana Nogales, PhD with Laura Golden Bellotti.
Another beneficial book was “Cheating in a Nutshell: What Infidelity Does to The Victim (Asked, Answered and Explained) by Wayne Mitchell and Tamara Mitchell.
I suggest looking into books and columns by Kaytlyn Gillis, Author of “It’s Not “‘High Conflict,’ It’s Post-Separation Abuse When Abusers Weaponize the Courts as a Form of Retaliation.” This month she also published a book about parental abandonment, which I will get.
I also got “Helping Your Kids Cope with Divorce the Sandcastles Way” by M. Gary Neuman but his assumption for most of the book is that there was NOT cheating. He did write a section on “When your Current Relationship Involves Infidelity in Your Marriage” but I don’t recall him addressing what to do if you–and your kids, by extension–were victims of your partner’s infidelity. He briefly mentions domestic violence, There’s a chapter on “When Parents Fight” with at least some good advice. Maybe other chumps could weigh in on this book. Soon after I got it, child’s therapist created a temporary no-contact safety plan, and eventually the court ruled permanent no contact.
It might be helpful to start family therapy for you and the kids, not with the ex, IF you can find an appropriate therapist.
Good luck to you. I am fortunate that his behavior was so egregious that child protective services (he falsely reported me), child’s therapist, the court-ordered Parental Responsibilities Evaluator and ultimately the judge determined he should have no contact ever, so I don’t have to coparent.
Wishing all the best for you and your kids.
“What I and other coparents see is that the other parent will hoard the clothes, toys, supplies etc. that you send the kids in, and return them in dirty clothes that aren’t insufficient for the weather.”
Oh yes, my FW pulled this. He once “forgot” my son’s winter coat in January and refused to either bring it OR let me pick it up from him. Most of the clothes I sent never came back, and he routinely sent bags of dirty laundry back even though I was so careful to pack clean, folded, sufficient clothing every time. I bought so much extra clothes because he continually claimed he didn’t have the clothing I sent (he bought nothing, except some event-based T-shirts that were about 5 sizes to big for our kid, and a pair of SKATEBOARD SHOES which are so, you know, practical).
After FW died, I had the fun job of retrieving my son’s things (and a bunch of marital property he’d absconded with). My son’s closet there was FULL of clothes – the clothes I’d been sending for months. Ugh.
Absolutely demand that FW provide clothes, and always send the kids in things you won’t miss (and keep a spare coat/shoes or whatever). Thrift stores are great for getting inexpensive clothing, or I’ve found that local moms’ groups, like on Facebook, often sell clothes by the bag for very little.
my clown FW is also a hoarder – i’ve rather farcically had to send my son back to the clown’s headquarters in a variety of outfits including a witch’s costume and a very small spiderman outfit (this was after my son stopped wearing costumes for fun) when we had nothing left, as well as on many occasions pyjamas or onesies – if i ever ask for anything to be sent back all of which i have purchased of course i get a message asking if i could please send underpants and socks (all of which i have also purchased), all of which the clown must have plentiful supplies since my son obviously doesnt freeball back to his dad’s house when he goes there – he also works about 30 metres away from the school uniform shop with second hand items available for a few dollars but no, couldnt possibly buy any of those either – it is a very tragic case of a downtrodden millionaire who hopefully one day will get struck by lightning
So sorry you and your kids had to go through this.
I can’t regret your FW’s death. The kids may need help reconciling their relief that he’s gone with guilt over their relief.
I meant to write that they send kids in clothes that are not sufficient for the weather. You experienced this too. It’s horrific that they jeopardize their kids’ health and comfort like this.
Honestly I don’t know how folks do this. Few folks can afford to buy coats and good shoes to wear for their children every weekend to replace the one left at the fw’s house. I would think at some point it would have to be taken to court. I have always said, I feel so fortunate my fw left after my son was grown. I don’t think he would have gone that far, but I know plenty do.
I went through this when he was a baby and preschooler, and later found out they were giving away and selling the stuff I was supplying. He actually was returned to me in a way oversized stained t-shirt and diaper during a winter storm. Never got back the snowsuits I’d send him in.
well this doesnt surprise me at all – bastards – i was going to label my son’s new batch of clothes but thought i was being petty, but having read this i think i will – nothing would surprise me as to what these lowlives do to impress other people – my idiot is probably giving all my son’s clothes to his AP’s bogan family as the whole lot just disappears
A work friend of mine saw that his step grandchildren had no bedroom furniture. (they were living in a trailer with their mom). He bought them each a set of bed and chest, and bought a small dining table for them. Visited later and found that his step daughters boy friend sold the furniture, so they were back to nothing. There was no point in buying them more. Not long after that, daughter let the girls stay with her mom and step dad. That lasted about a year, then she took them back. Sad situation.
A friend discovered that the mom insisted on coming into the house with the kids on exchanges specifically to steal anything she could lay hands on. She always had to use the bathroom, and would steal from there and access other rooms in search of wallets, electronics, phones, jewelry, etc.
This was not Fraudster, BTW.
Cheating Fraudster was only allowed supervised visits and blew the first one badly. Between that one (attempt to kidnap child, showed him porn photos of his online catfisher AP) and his subsequent behavior (including false reports to CPS), he never got more visits.
Thanks for the Ru Paul!
I do have a theory about men’s views on the economics of a marriage, and how that plays into their decision to cheat.
I think men like to have the upper hand financially because it’s harder for a chump to leave a cheater when she’s economically dependent on him. Cheating on a wife who out-earns you is a whole lot riskier.
My husband did want me to work, because he wanted the money coming in — as long as I didn’t earn more than he did.
At the same time, he really resented me for not bringing in enough money. He did NOTHING around the house, so even though both of us had jobs with identical demands, his paid more than mine did — so I got stuck with the “second shift” at home. I was burning the candle at both ends; he did literally nothing in the house — well not quite nothing: after he finished eating the dinner I’d cooked, he’s take his plate, his fork, and his knife and bring them into the kitchen and pile them on the counter. Not in the dishwasher — because he said he didn’t know whether the dishes were clean or dirty — just on the counter.
Then he’d go down to watch TV with a glass of gin while I cleaned up after dinner, managed the homework, supervised the cello practicing, bathed our daughter, got her into bed, and read her a story.
So his economic dominance trapped me in a marriage, and his resentment (thinking I was just a freeloader) gave him a perceived justification for cheating, stealing and lying. It was heads he wins, tails I lose.
Actually, now I probably do earn more than he does, but my lawyer was smart enough to make the support order non-modifiable.
“I think men like to have the upper hand financially because it’s harder for a chump to leave a cheater when she’s economically dependent on him. Cheating on a wife who out-earns you is a whole lot riskier.”
I’ve mentioned this before but the FW encouraged me to leave my job and find something I liked more that paid less because HE made a very good salary and we could afford to lose some of my income. He was proposing this while he was having an affair that HE knew about (obv) but I did not yet know.
My memory of the timeline often gets foggy because it was all rather traumatic, but I just realized now that there were markers for when this happened because it coincided with the lockdown. He eventually told me about the affair because he wanted to move on with Schmoops. Encouraging me to leave my job was at most 5 months out from D-Day, but more realistically…it was way less. Maybe 2 months?
I always knew it was super fishy that he encouraged that when he knew that we would not remain together. He makes really good money, more than twice what I make. I didn’t leave my job (THANK GOD) because I would never do that. My job is fine actually and I am glad to have the paycheck I hve now that I am single.
But my point is, he absolutely wanted me to leave that job and be LESS financially stable on my own when he dropped the DDay bomb, because he was hoping to keep me dependent on him.
I’ve always suspected that Schmoops was giving him an ultimatum of “tell her or I leave” or “tell her or I will”. And I think that’s what lead to the timing. He knew he’d have to tell me soon, and he was afraid of how I’d respond. And so he tried to stack the cards in his favor. If I was less financially stable, I might be more likely to do what he wanted.
“My husband did want me to work, because he wanted the money coming in — as long as I didn’t earn more than he did.
At the same time, he really resented me for not bringing in enough money”
Yep, this economic theory checks out with my ex too. Damned if I did, Damned if I didn’t. It was designed to keep me walking on egg shells. Now he can lord it over his minimum wage earning OW who “needs me”. Such a brave & moral hero! 🙄
Sadly, I totally out earned both my cheaters ..being economically independent did not stop 2 men who felt dependent and needy. They each chose woman of lesser means who they said NEEDED THEM. Not like mr, all uppity. One needed my husband while I was pregnant and” not paying the right attention and #2 after I retired because i was old and no longer bringing in the bucks.
Dear WBMS. these creeps ALWAYS have many reasons to cheat and the goal posts move constantly. However, being financially independent helped ME LEAVE, survive, raise my children and be a role model. That is worth it right there. My children are 35 and 43 and both are financially independent and can get out anytime. They got the message
I also learned this from my parents’ marriage. When I was 15, I decided I wanted to be in a position where I could always leave a man if I chose to. So…college, develop a work history, and establish credit. As it turned out, I never married.
So DOAC you did not pick the low hanging fruit all around you like I did? Consider yourself saved though I know it does not feel like that in retrospect
Amen there is always a “reason” (excuse) to cheat. I’d earned the same, and more, then a lot less than FW in the decades together. My daughter sees I’m a professional woman who left an abusive cheating NPD thief who stole $$$ from us, instead of staying just to keep an upper middle class lifestyle like her friend’s mother. She’s learning about budgeting, saving, intentional spending so much more than her teen peers because of what happened to us. Truly kids learn by example.
Example of strength, resourcefulness and my daughter learned from my mistakes also. I said, this is where I fell…now please go around that hole and don’t repeat.
The “harder for a chump to leave” is definitely a thing. My ex’s family also fell into the “no divorce ever” camp, citing the Bible (of course).
My ex’s older brother told me that even a part-time job might “corrupt” me to the point that I’d leave. His stand was that married women (even those with no children in the home), should never, ever work because they had to stay in their “calling,” period. And they glorified the contributions of SAHM every time I was around them.
Ironically, the brother became disabled, and his wife had to go to work after their kids were mostly raised.
Then it was my ex who left, saying that he (a grown) man had to flee his crazy wife. And he later told his attorney that I had contributed “nothing” to his life as a SAHM and that I was a lazy lout. Goes to show how they manipulate the facts to fit their own narrative…
RKwaM,
I’m going to pick up CL’s point about kids not being stupid. Kids see and understand (in their own way) a lot more than we Chumps give them credit for ….. and certainly more than our Cheaters give them credit for. If you can be the sane parent, the reliable parent, the consistent parent, the parent who acts in the kids’ best interests and puts their needs before your own and the parent that answers their questions in terms that they understand your kids will learn values aligned with your own. You will be giving them the information and the tools they need to be able to make their own judgements about your STBX’s hateful and misogynistic BS.
This will take time, effort and love, but believe me that it pays off when you take the long view.
LFTT
My kids were older but had observed even prior to the breakup that I was the sane, caring parent. We had to sort everything out of course.
When he finally invited them to visit, four years after he left, I offered to drive them to the airport. No, they didn’t go.
After disjointed parenting with a bully for 18 years,who would stick his size 13 foot in the door to talk to me about his parental rights ( 1989)wanting more time and telling me all his child raising ideas, fomented by OW who could not have children of her own…I had to be like the Ever Ready bunny and keep going keep going. Not faltering or falling into his verbal traps. This #1 cheater took the kids to another denomination and started that division of what we had agreed on. But His church going stopped and OWs influence wanned. Cheaters parents moved from NYC to mid America and helped with some sanity but also more blame and division. Out last them all with your love and courage and just keep going. You must stay healthy and strong in courage. Gym, walks, food, time alone, time with only good friend. I sadly went right to the next cheater but he helped initially to defang the bully and get me on my feet. Yes it backed fired 30 years later but for the years of “normal” I did have before porn, EAs and running around took over. Another guy did help for awhile..whatever it takes
Is there a brother or a grandfather or very trusted family friend who can model real manhood to your kids? Who doesn’t see women as the enemy?
This is something with which I have personal experience. So my kids father didn’t cheat, that was douchebag #2, but he was extremely misogynist.
I came to understand where it came from recently (I divorced him 20 years ago)…..his mother was an incest victim and married a man she could control. Ex grew up watching her steamroll his father and decided he was going to put his woman in her place. Same things…..women don’t work, do what they’re told, speak when spoken to, put out on demand, etc.
Me: fuck off.
So how did I handle it? Well, for one thing I left him. First rule of combating the influence of toxic behavior is don’t put up with it.
I had primary custody as ex was military. I simply ignored his bullshit and built my own career. Daddy said mothers shouldn’t work? Well that’s his opinion and like assholes everyone has one, and mommy does work. Furthermore, mommy makes good money and supports a nice lifestyle thanks to 2 degrees (one in a hard science) and a lot of ambition.
Our sons figured things out for themselves. And keep in mind that this whole women stay home and do what they’re told bullshit isn’t the norm in the broader society they’re going to come up in. Lots of their friends will have moms who work and this will be the norm for them. Dad’s shit will be an archaic relic.
And despite ex’s bullshit guess who our sons are much closer to? That’s right…..yours truly. And ex has actually settled a bit over the years and we’re friendly enough these days. But I couldn’t have given less of a ahit what he thought and simply lived my life and raised them. They figured everything out.
Him: women shouldn’t work.
Me: that’s nice.
Him: men in charge.
Me: thats nice, now do what I want with the money I earned in the house i own.
Simply don’t play into any of it. If your ex starts broaching the men are entitled to cheat thing simply remind your kids that this is part of the reason you’re divorced and that kind of attitudes will ruin their own relationships. They’ll look at their fathers life and decide if that’s what they want. The key is how much he’s been rewarded for bad behavior, and his family has already broken up over it.
Children learn by modeling. I learned this as a psych major in college and I believe it.
The great news is that you have the children 65% of the time. That you have a working moral compass. You already have the foundation of more influence.
Our children are going to copy who they trust. They are going to run into all kinds of influences in the world, not just parents. If you are a safe and trustworthy parent, that is also a major part of a rock solid foundation for influencing your children. Do everything you can to be trustworthy…that is the gold that cheaters and side pieces throw away with both hands. Don’t do or say anything that jeopardizes your integrity, your credibility, or your dignity. Guard that status of being the safe, trustworthy parent with your life.
That being said, you can’t CONTROL whether they trust you. But the good news is that you CAN control whether you are trustworthy. Make sure your words and actions warrant their trust. Keep your focus on that.
Practice being the safe, sane-as-possible, trustworthy parent, and remember this is a long game. With 65% custody, you have them the majority of the time and that means the majority of the time you get to practice being the example of who you’d like them to be.
You can relax and revel in the fact that you are trustworthy. The cheater and side pieces shot themselves in the foot with their decision to deceive and defraud.
My daughter has not spoken to Traitor Dad since 2019 and last year decided to stop going over to his house for the ridiculously few hours a week he wanted custody. How she feels is absolutely appropriate for how he has treated her. This is the damage he caused and he has done zero to make amends for it. It’s his problem to fix and his response has been to blame everyone but himself.
It’s a great feeling to know that my daughter can trust me, that I deserve her trust. It’s the greatest gift and having it alleviates a lot of fear about
❤️
True influence and true intimacy require trust and safety. It’s not possible with anyone whose behavior says, “I don’t care how you feel.”
Children are suffering from profound grief, loss, and trauma when their family is blown up.
Cheaters and side pieces, naturally oblivious to anyone’s feelings but their own, typically force the involved children to put on a happy face and make every effort to repress, dismiss, and deny the grief of the children, which I find heartbreaking and sickening.
You can rest assured that cheaters and side pieces, whose raison d’être is fraud, deception, and ignoring the pain and damage they inflict on others, especially powerless children, will never enjoy true intimacy with anyone, even each other.
Golden words.
My college kids got that without being an “own up, show up” parent, there could be no relationship with Dad. He wanted them to visit some years after the divorce like nothing had happened. It doesn’t work that way. They assumed that there was a woman he wanted them to meet, and they outlined all the game-playing and possible ugly scenarios with me. I kept my trap shut while they went back and forth together. They didn’t go.
Well, then he had another victim story. Poor FW, his kids abandoned him.
” his kids abandoned him”
Same here with my FW except this was pre-family split up. What the kids did was go away to college, but the way he put it was “When the kids abandoned us there was no reason to continue the marriage anymore”. He said this eleven years after the youngest left for college, so there actually was some reason to continue the marriage after all. Could it have been to extract value from the wife appliance?? Hmmmm…. lemme think….
I really “drank the Koolaid” of being a homeschool mom/trad wife for over 2 decades with my ex, giving my all to pleasing a man who truly could never be pleased. This was highly encouraged in my faith circles, where divorce for any reason was the ultimate sinful disgrace.
My extremely observant daughter, who was the first person to tell me I should read Lundy Bancroft’s book “Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men”, turned out to be a complete feminist. Yet, I devoted her entire upbringing to trying to teach the very opposite message of feminism (shamefully, I think now). My theory is that she saw through all the supposedly Christian trad wife/misogynistic BS long before I did. Once my eyes were opened to his coercive control and then his cheating when I actually got out, I was grateful for my daughter’s rebellion against the system.
My son also rejected the worldview and faith that he was steeped in growing up. I think he, too, saw the BS. Rather painful for a while, but now I’m glad that my kids defied what needs to be defied.
At present, even though they still see their dad on occasion, they live near me (speaks volumes!) – and are extremely supportive of my freedom from their dad and from the need to have another man in my life.
I write this to encourage you, RKWM, that our kids truly do see more than we might give them credit for. Your kids will have a real leg-up over mine, being young while you divorce their misogynistic dad, watching you rock the sane parenting.
I think it’s wonderful that your kids are independent thinkers. I suspect that you must have conveyed that model one way or another. Maybe you were a creative rebel in adapting recipes or crafts. Maybe they heard you mumbling something sensible at the news. However you did it, you must have planted a seed. And now they will pass that critical thinking seed down to the next generation where it will grow into a tree.
As I hinted in my earlier comment, I feel gratitude that my parents were the ones who “broke ground” and had to go through the process of rebelling against their own families so that they could model a different path for me. But the interesting thing I learned from this is that, even without internalizing any tradwife brainwashing and even if I knew perfectly well that FW was trying to take unfair power over me and even though he wasn’t framing his domineering behavior on religious or traditional grounds, I still felt entrapped by his coercive and controlling behaviors for a time.
At the end of the day, I think the main problem is coercive control. Another problem is the isolation caused by the fact that most of the world still doesn’t recognize how potent that is, doesn’t recognize all the many forms it comes in and doesn’t sufficiently support those who are subjected to it. Brainwashing women to internalize and accept the unfairness certainly doesn’t help but it’s only one of many bars on the cage. Focusing on cultural brainwashing might be helpful but it can also end up implying that “women are their own worst enemies” and entrap themselves. But I can attest that’s really not the biggest driving issue. The cage exists even if you were raised to believe it shouldn’t.
Years ago, I was chumped after a cross country move, as a happy SAHM with 3 kids including an infant. My exH is a high-functioning sociopath who is a closeted gay, who cooked, cleaned, equally cared for the kids, and gave me 15 happy years. He was the perplexing type you might have read about that one day walked out and never came back. Nobody saw that coming. We all wondered if he had a brain tumor or a TBI (nope, just a FW with a super duper secret sexual basement).
He is the more covert form of a misogynist – he walks, talks, and acts like he loves women and thinks we’re equal in humanity and worth to men. It took divorcing him for me to be able to eventually spot his carefully guarded misogyny in the divorce litigation. Our older 2 kids clocked him immediately around middle school age, as a Jordan Peterson listening, fat shaming weirdo, who had redpill tendencies. He likes the type of liberal sex pozzie “feminism” that benefits men. 🙄 I’m a radical feminist (trans-inclusive). He and I do not share the same brand of feminism. AT ALL. Period.
Trust that your children will watch and learn from you. This is the real hard work that thankfully has ZERO to do with a FW: you will have to find ways to be joyful and fun to be around on your parenting time, and show the kids you are choosing fulfilling endeavors. Model sanity and calm. Keep being the show up parent. Stay unbothered about that FW and his future victims. He will lie to the kids and be inconsistent with them, too. He’ll likely find a PickMe stepmommy bangmaid perhaps at church, and will try to destroy her spirit slowly over time, too. You can’t save her. I’m living my own version of that. Thankfully, she is good to the kids and wasn’t an OW because my ex liked Other Men.
Work as hard as you can on yourself to stay future-facing in your healing, and please don’t let him ever ruin your whole day. He would love that. As long as you are creating the happiest and most stable home you possibly can for your kids, you are going to reduce the chances of him ever successfully alienating them, for long anyway. That was one of the more surprising things about post-FW coparenting: how quickly the kids figured all of their parents out. Truly, the sooner the chump commits to worrying about herself and totally delivering themselves from Fuckwittery in all its forms, the better off the kids will be in the limited time we have them.. Good luck, you’ve got this!
Laughing and nodding to “a Jordan Peterson listening, fat shaming weirdo, who had redpill tendencies. He likes the type of liberal sex pozzie ‘feminism’ that benefits men.”
In my case, FW wasn’t secretly gay and was actually a secret chubby-chaser but the rest fits.
There is a particular form of “libbie” covert misogyny that doesn’t get discussed enough. Thankfully because my parents were feminists and had already gone through their own reckoning about the hypocrisy of some who pose as “woke” activists, at least I was able to see through some of the post-D-day spin and bs such as trying to hide creepy behavior under supposedly “woke” shields.
Like when he tried to tell me that, because the corporate “work wife” who repeatedly pimped underlings and interns to him in exchange for work perks, free drinks and glowing references was a sex pozzie lesbian and supposed feminist, he wasn’t actually abusing patriarchal power. My response was “Hahahahaha- ‘pimp’ cancels out ‘feminist,’ idiot.”
I’d already learned from my parents that it’s a classic form of pseudo-positive bigotry to assume that anyone with minority status is necessarily ethically advanced. Minority status can certainly inform and increase the chances that some people get it but Malcolm X’s warning about “house slaves” still stands. Every union revolt has its scab workers.
Or, because the AP was noticeably overweight, he thought this proved he wasn’t an objectifying misogynist. But hahahahahaha again, the reason he sought chubby women is because chubby faces tend to look more deceptively juvenile, at least until about age thirty. Consequently, it was just a less legally risky way for him to explore his pedophilic tendencies (also evidenced by the predominance of “FP Teens” and “Little Lolita” videos on his Google history and the AP’s disturbingly campy, infantile behaviors– shudder).
I also found all these “purple pill” Youtube links on his Google history– anti-feminism content often presented by patriarchal dick-sucking Vichy women “influencers” who link to Jordan Peterson and Red Pill bs.
Anyway, it’s not just openly radtrad men who harbor serious misogyny and rape culture tendencies. It’s not even just men who harbor sexism. There’s been a rash of social studies in the past 15 years finding that women who harbor tradwife views– aka, “toxic femininity”– are actually statistically more likely to sexually coerce and abuse men because of expectations that “real men” are supposed to be dominant and aggressive so there’s not point respecting the rights of men who “fail” in that regard.
The husband’s misogyny was only an issue worth addressing (and protecting the dear children from) after she caught him cheating on her. How can she be “new to parenting with an FW” if it’s been more than a decade? Sigh… whatever.
Sounds a bit victim blaming. Maybe consider reading the works and research of Dr. Emma Katz and the late Evan Stark regarding coercive control tactics used by abusers to paralyze and entrap victims/partners.
She is new to co-parenting with him; is that better? I think it’s clear what she means.
Like I always say, it was FW’s bad luck that I’m the hand that rocked the cradle. I rocked it hard and rocked the house along with it. 😀 Basically while he was off doing whatever, I followed my family’s tradition and raised my kids to be cheerfully dissident, critical thinking “radfems.”
Seriously, from the time I was a tot, my parents took me to National Organization for Women meetings and related feminist events because my dad periodically spoke for the organization regarding subliminal misogynistic messaging in secondary scholastic textbooks. I found the environment fun as a kid. It gave me perspective on why many teachers in grade school seemed a bit sour towards girls who raised their hands too much. Ah. Internalized misogyny. In contrast, I got more positive attention around activist circles. I got to meet all the leading lights of the movement at the time and was even interviewed on the news at around age 8 and asked if women should be presidents of companies, to which I responded, “Women should be president period!” The newscasters thought this was so adorbs that they made “president period” into a tagline.
Because of my “pink diaper” upbringing, the perspective had always been completely normal for me and I was so used to being around all sorts of men who supported it that, when my kids were small, I had no clue that I was actually making them “seditious” towards FW’s patriarchal views, especially because he had always presented himself as a groovy ally and mirrored the same values as my family. It was only years later when he started secretly drinking and trawling for office floozies that the mask began to drop and I was absolutely stunned by the rage and resentment he’d apparently built up towards my views.
It was such an extreme about-face that I thought he had a brain tumor (more like a 160 LB ego-fluffing, family-asset-gobbling tumor named Debbie lol). But too bad for him that, by then, the kids already had a gallows humor view of people with that attitude and behavior– that they are, in the words of the bard, “douchebags.”
In any case, the more unstable and angry FW became at home, the more he started spewing the political attitudes of his radtrad affair partner, the more the kids started getting circumspect and detached towards him. If he said something they thought was stupid, they’d say so. Eventually no one ran to greet him and pile up on him when he came home from work anymore and the kids started treating him like the deliverer of material stuff they wanted. It could arguably have been just FW’s increasing belligerence that caused this but my tween daughter said quite bluntly at one point before D-day, “I think Dad is gaslighting you.” I didn’t even know she knew the word. Though I don’t think it was conscious rebellion, my sons began ignoring FW’s simmering silences as they howled and joked over dinner about Harvey Weinstein, Andrew Tate and Epstein island and all the rapey apes in public office.
I think the kids also dismissed Dad for being “weird” because another of my family’s fond traditions I followed was to collect and surround the family with all sorts of interesting people with aligned views and perspectives, including men so the kids were exposed to another type of male role model. Several of the kids’ teachers and their wives/girlfriends expressed similar politics, then parents of the kids’ friends and classmates joined in and our circle began to grow to the point I was throwing big house parties so everyone could meet and we could throw the net wider.
If it hadn’t been for FW’s sudden ugly shift, that would have been such a great time in the kids’ lives and mine. Even when I had adults over for adult talk, the kids and their friends would hover around listening and interjecting. It made for a lot of rollicking discussions and merriment and, consequently, FW started looking like a groke in comparison. I think he probably sensed he was being “outdone” because the boring drunken jerks he was hanging out with on his own were hardly as fun, adventurous and energetic as the people the kids and I were collecting.
As part of his general campaign of coercive control during his cheating spree, in retrospect I think FW would have loved to accuse me of “parental alienation” for my political views but he had no grounds because, all along, I had never pilloried him as an example of patriarchal misogyny (hadn’t known for year that he was one) but only discussed things abstractly with the kids. Before D-day when I was clueless about the cheating, I could sense the glowering disapproval from him but didn’t understand that, whenever my kids asked at the dinner table why the Weinsteins and Epsteins, etc., etc., behaved the way they do and I mused on theories in forensic psychology, evolution, politics and history, FW felt accused and exposed because all of this described him to a “t.”
But of course he couldn’t say as much without admitting what he was doing in secret so instead he campaigned to paint me as a social misfit and weirdo who “didn’t know how to get along with people” which sounded bizarre because, out of the other side of his mouth, he was complaining about having people around all the time.
Before D-day, the closest FW came to admitting that what he really didn’t like was the politics of the company I kept is when he screamed at me, “I’m not your Noam Chomsky!” That seems hilarious in hindsight like, no, dear sir, you’re not a sober, politically consistent intellectual and feminist ally who was devoted to his late wife and raised five well-adjusted and constructive children. But it was hardly funny at the time because he also began menacingly attacking my parenting on other, fabricated grounds which, along with his increasing bullying, rages and DARVO attacks, read as a threat to frame me as nuts and take custody away.
I was so terrified of FW before before D-day that I became paralyzed. I stopped sleeping, felt like a hostage and eventually became a shell of my former self for awhile. But even if I’d been tempted to press the mute button on discussing political and gender themes to avoid wrath, the kids themselves were completely fired up about these things so there was no way to stifle it. I think I also had a little kick left in me and didn’t try.
Whether or not this had anything to do with her political education, a few days after D-day my daughter became suspicious that something was up, snooped on devices and learned a lot of details about FW’s double life that I wouldn’t have thought were age-appropriate and wouldn’t have shared with her. But that’s when I found out precisely why FW had been so mortally threatened by my “political influence” on the kids: my daughter caught the whole gist immediately, flamed FW in texts and told her brothers. There were a lot of tears at first but then something seemed to click and the kids became pretty philosophical about what FW had done. I think it emotionally shielded them a bit.
Again, FW so badly wanted to frame me as “alienating” due to our kids finding out except he couldn’t because my daughter admitted to snooping and texted that she’d sensed what he was up to for a long time. So clearly what actually worried him is that the kids– unlike his idiotic flying monkey barfly crowd and sexist, enabling therapist– weren’t susceptible to his attempts to triangulate and alienate them towards me and frame me as the problem. It spoiled his kid-weaponizing, coercive controlling fun because the kids saw right through him– not because of me but because of his own behavior. So what he really objected to was that they had a framework in which to soberly judge him.
In the end I think that some of the political “framework” I shared with the kids and the books I had them read stuck simply because it made sense to them and continued to make sense as they got older and more aware. Far more than just a “feminist” perspective, it’s a lens through which to see every variety of abuse of power which has many applications in life and politics. I think it’s given the kids a better understanding of interpersonal ups and downs and world events and this has made them emotionally resilient and cheerfully influential to their friends.
Anyway, there’s one solution to inoculating kids against bigoted brainwashing. Without ever having to call a FW a FW, editorialize on their bs or hold them up as negative examples for children, it’s possible to educate kids– as my parents did me– to “consider the source” of cultural messages, be aware of the illicit power agendas underlying discrimination, to experience a happy social alternative to the old top-down monkey hierarchy and to have a framework for understanding every variety of injustice. The fact that this made the kids skeptical of and resistant towards FW’s attitudes was only an unplanned side effect and, for that reason, probably all the more effective.
I don’t lose sight of the fact that losing respect for their father was a sad event in the kids’ lives but it’s entirely his own doing. No one forced him to pretend to be someone he wasn’t for years. No one forced him to blow family assets and rob time from the kids so he could hang out with greedy creeps and losers. No one made him destabilize his family with freaky mood shifts and frightening rages. The kids only knew of these things because he did them. He could have avoided making himself into a walking illustration of why misogyny sucks. Now I’m mostly grateful about how the kids’ political understanding seems to have acted as a net to break the fall and allay some of the trauma.
Yes, the new “tradwives”. I have thought that if they spent a few hours reading this site, it would stimulate a different outlook…