Pansexual Husband Wants an Open Relationship
Her husband announces that he’s pansexual and wants an open relationship. But, turns out, he’s been living that way for years. She just didn’t get the memo.
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Dear Chump Lady,
I’ve (57f) been married to my spouse (55m) for 17 years. Before we started dating originally, he was polyamorous. I was single, divorced, in my thirties, and very open-minded. He was also bisexual, as am I.
Things were pretty casual during our dating time, but he moved in with me after about a year, and we got engaged.
I told him in no uncertain terms that before I’d get married, we’d have to agree to be monogamous from there on out.
He agreed. So we were engaged and living together for about a year and during all this time things were fantastic. We had a super fun wedding, and things were fine for the first couple of years until I discovered he was still corresponding with a married woman he’d been in an open relationship with before we started dating, who also had been very jealous of our relationship.
I was devastated and never was able to trust him fully after that, but I wanted my marriage to work. So I cried, he apologized and for the most part things were fine, but then over the years I started seeing a lot of gay porn and while I’m fine with it, when I found out he was messaging other men for dates and had made a date to meet one, I should have left then. But I didn’t.
He promised nothing had happened and it was just messaging, but I could never trust him.
So in 2013, I was 46 and found out I was pregnant quite out of the blue. I’d always had serious issues with fertility, so it was a complete surprise and I was so happy. I was finally going to have a baby of my own and things between my spouse and I were closer and better than ever.
During a routine visit with my ob/gyn at nearly five months, she discovered there was no longer a heartbeat, and confirmed through ultrasound. I was so crushed and started getting dressed, and asked her what happens next. She said that she needed to talk with me about my latest blood test results, and that they had discovered that I was HIV positive.
I went into shock and had to be restrained at the office, and wasn’t allowed to leave until my spouse left work and came to pick me up.
After that, I stupidly made the choice to continue with the marriage, because I felt I really had nowhere else to go.
I was too defeated by dealing with the loss of what I later found out from the pathologist was twins, that I spent the next 11 years wrapped up in that grief and a rapid health decline. During this time, my husband came out to me as pansexual and told me he needed to be in an open relationship. I stupidly again agreed, because I’d been currently having an emotional affair with my high school sweetheart and wanted to be with him instead.
Unfortunately this ultimately didn’t work out after several attempts, and I was left alone in a loveless marriage with a man who came out as pansexual, became polyamorous, and a cross dresser, who heavily prefers casual sex with male partners.
While I respect his right as an independent person to choose this life, I desperately no longer want to be dragged along with it. It’s not the sort of marriage I’ve ever wanted, but because of my poor health, mental and physical, I’ve become financially dependent on someone who is addicted to sex and is a poor provider.
I no longer have the option to date or “find someone else” because anyone else I find is going to reject me as soon as they find out I’m HIV positive. I’ve already tested the waters and trust me, the options for a fairly straight middle aged woman with HIV are virtually zero. Hey, if a miracle happens great, but I’m trying to be realistic about the situation, and it breaks my heart and makes me berate myself as a failure.
I need help to get out of this, but I don’t know where to turn and it’s a hard thing to ask for this level of help from anyone.
That’s where I’m at now. I’m hopeful, but I realize this could take me many more years to dig myself out of on my own, and not looking forward to the miserable lonely existence I’m living in the meantime. That is IF I can even do it on my own, ever. It makes it hard to stay positive.
at_a_loss_57
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Dear at_a_loss_57,
This man gave you HIV when you were pregnant. HE GAVE YOU HIV WHEN YOU WERE PREGNANT.
HE GAVE YOU HIV WHEN YOU WERE PREGNANT!
That is all the skein untangling we are going to indulge in. I don’t need to know anything else about this fuckwit.
HE GAVE YOU HIV WHEN YOU WERE PREGNANT!!!
I don’t care if your husband is pansexual, omnivorous, left-handed or a lapsed Presbyterian, he is a fucking MONSTER. And you, my chumpy friend, are in an abusive relationship, and you need a plan to get the hell out of there.
(Imagined voice of the New York media elite) Tracy, you think everyone is in an abusive relationship. Simmer down.
HE GAVE HER HIV WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT!!!
If that doesn’t give you a front bench seat in hell, I don’t know what will. Fuck his sexual self-identification. It’s such a red herring. He is an ABUSER. He has been living in an “open” relationship since this marriage began. You just didn’t get the memo. He shattered your world and it’s made you wholly vulnerable to him.
The work we need to do here is get you to reframe your thinking — and material situation — so you can leave him ASAP.
I told him in no uncertain terms that before I’d get married, we’d have to agree to be monogamous from there on out. He agreed.
He lied.
So, now we start a pattern of you discovering shady shit and affair partners. Then he apologizes (lies), promises he won’t do it again (lies). Rinse, repeat.
He has never been a committed, safe partner. Ever. He’s not going to become a committed, safe partner. I’m sorry to be the cold bucket of water, but he could leave you at any moment. It sounds like he has in pretty much every way that matters. So, it’s time to face that fact and live your life without him — in sanity and safety.
I was devastated and never was able to trust him fully after that, but I wanted my marriage to work.
I want calorie-free French pastries and world peace. You CANNOT single-handedly save a marriage. A marriage without trust is not a marriage, it’s a hostage situation. This was NEVER ON YOU. You can’t try harder to make a fuckwit be less of a fuckwit.
You don’t have to be the ‘cool wife.’
but then over the years I started seeing a lot of gay porn and while I’m fine with it,
Are you, though? Really?
Please untangle your good progressive values from your personal boundaries. What the gay porn tells me is that you’re in a pick-me dance with pixels. “Hey, husband, I know you’re bisexual and entitled to your fantasies, but I feel like I’m in a competition for your attention. And my gender seems, based on your porn habits, to be someone you’re not attracted to. Discuss.”
Oh right, that would be if we were in a respectful relationship with a normal person. HE’S A CHEATER.
My point is, he’s weaponized your decency.
I see you contorting yourself to be cool with everything. Not judge his sexuality. This isn’t a matter of his sexuality, it’s a matter of his abusiveness. How he’s lying to you, and unilaterally changing the terms of your mutually agreed upon monogamous marriage. He risked your health. HE GAVE YOU HIV.
I went into shock and had to be restrained at the office, and wasn’t allowed to leave until my spouse left work and came to pick me up.
My heart breaks for you. I wish someone would’ve directed you to a women’s shelter and told you how to press criminal charges. Instead, they sent you home with that monster.
After that, I stupidly made the choice to continue with the marriage, because I felt I really had nowhere else to go.
I see you keep saying you should’ve left. IT’S NOT TOO LATE TO LEAVE. Every single one of us here wishes we’d left sooner.
CREATE somewhere else to go. Wherever that is, on a friend’s sofa, in a women’s shelter, in your parent’s basement, is a) temporary and b) better than where you are now.
I spent the next 11 years wrapped up in that grief and a rapid health decline.
Are you too sick to work? Are you on disability? (HIV status according to this article may entitle you to Social Security disability benefits) Have you consulted a lawyer?
During this time, my husband came out to me as pansexual and told me he needed to be in an open relationship.
He’s always been in an “open” relationship. He’s never fenced that dick in. Notice how he chose the moment when you are at your most vulnerable to tell you that he has no intention of being faithful to you. That’s just straight up abuse.
because of my poor health, mental and physical, I’ve become financially dependent on someone who is addicted to sex and is a poor provider.
Become financially dependent on someone else. Either the government, your family, or yourself. I realize we have a piss poor safety net in the U.S., but it cannot be worse than the piss poor husband you’re living with. Please get legal counsel. Check out www.womenslaw.org for the low-bono and pro-bono resources in your state. (They also have a legal helpline.) You may be entitled to social services. In a divorce, he might have to pay you alimony, or sign over an asset. I don’t know the details of your situation, but I’m encouraging you to reach out to professionals and start making a plan to leave this motherfucker.
I no longer have the option to date or “find someone else” because anyone else I find is going to reject me as soon as they find out I’m HIV positive.
FFS, stop thinking about dating.
You need to rescue YOURSELF, with the help of caring professionals. Get healthy. Love yourself first. Don’t shackle yourself to another loser. The last thing you need right now is the rejection hunger games of dating. Stop the negative script that you’re unloveable! Reach out to other people with HIV and see how they’re navigating this shit sandwich. With medication, you can get your viral low to the point it’s not transmissible. HIV is not a death sentence any longer. The stigma out there is bad enough, please don’t stigmatize yourself that you’re unloveable.
Every day you remain with that monster is a day you’re going to feel unloveable. BECAUSE HE IS ABUSING YOU.
This is a community of people who have left abusers. Each one of us has had challenges. Pregnancy, small children, no retirement, living overseas, cancer. Read the Mighty archives. We’ve made it to the other side, and you can too. We’re here for you.
Also, I have lost count of how many letters I’ve gotten where a woman discovers an STD at her prenatal screenings. Curiously, this is never the subject of an Esther Perel podcast.
I think STDs are a major source of infertility problems – perhaps THE major source, and I think it might also be involved in fetal deaths and injuries, as it obviously was with our poor letter writer. People make too light of STDS, we may not even know their full effect because they seem insidious in their effects. I suspect my cancer was probably caused by an undetected STD, so many are. I would say to someone who is having fertility problems to carefully check for any and all STDs because that may be where the problem lies. As for our poor letter writer, I don’t even know what to say. I know there are special government resources (at least in some states) for HIV sufferers and maybe programs that could give her help and practical support but obviously she needs to leave this sick person who has done her so much damage.
Exuberant defilement?
‘Joyous Disease’
‘Delicious Transmission’
‘Maverick Markers’
With both of my pregnancies, they insisted on a full STD panel. Surprises like this are not uncommon, and of course, they need to know for the baby’s health.
I was waiting for your take on the writer having an emotional herself while in the marriage, Tracy. 😉
Wouldn’t a CN nation framing be that:
– Affairs (physical/emotional) are structured as abusive. Because consent.
– That what K has been through has been ‘next level’ abusive.
– That in response to that, K engaged in what we might otherwise frame as a ‘revenge affair’ (the emotional affair/sense of connection to an old boyfriend). I would probably use the term ‘solace emotional affair’
– That the reason for some understandable CN indignation on this point, is that many recognise (from their own experiences) that even something as seemingly ‘benign’ as an old flame/EA can and does cause real pain and damage.
– For example, that as Orlando points out, FW’s themselves will cite subjective notions of “solace” or “grief” to justify their dodgy EA actions. So we know it can be slippery, hurtful ground.
– That rather than Tracy’s response providing a ‘free pass’ per se to K for this, there is instead sage warning that this (the EA) is a dead path that won’t lead to happiness (either K’s or anyone else’s).
K I’m sorry that you’ve been to hell and back. You have been systemically beaten down and your body is carrying the legacy of this fuckwit human.
I wish you peace and healing and the strength for you to locate your path out.
Thank you Learning. Well said.
I covered it on telling her to focus on her own healing and not some other romance/dating to rescue her.
WOW. That seems a bit mean-spirited. The husband is screwing all and sundry.
Why is that mean-spirited? Does the OP get a pass for her cheating behaviour because we feel sorry for her? “because I’d been currently having an emotional affair with my high school sweetheart and wanted to be with him instead”. Yes, I feel bad that the OP had shitty things happen: miscarriage, HIV, a toxic relationship. But a complete pass on accountability for her? Nah.
QUIT CALLING ME A CHEATER. I never cheated on that man. He had already been cheating on me for years and had given me HIV and I flirted with an old boyfriend. My husband was already actively having sex with other people. I am NOT a cheater. My spouse’s actions negated all that. I never should have said emotional affair because clearly it’s not what I was doing.
It’s not equivalent. And it’s also a reflection of her values, which is to say, be coupled at all costs. Which I’ve asked her to re-examine. You don’t need another FW.
Sorry I was still thinking about an old boyfriend.
Yes, me too. The OP isn’t entirely innocent here although she got bit more in the ass with consequences. What a hot mess was my entire take on this!
Your lack of compassion is disgusting. She didn’t get “bit in the ass with consequences”, she was abused horrifically for years.
Where exactly did I do wrong here besides being stupid, which I totally own? So after finding out my spouse has been cheating on me for years, yeah okay I had romantic feelings for a high school sweetheart who still cared for me. But yeah okay how dare I be NOT INNOCENT. Whatever.
I’m so sorry for the way some of the other posters have treated you.
Your husband not only cheated, but gave you HIV. The monogamous commitment was already null and void by his doing. So you absolutely do get a pass for an emotional affair.
I am stunned at the lack of empathy of some posters here, attacking a woman who was given a terrible disease by a cheater because she turned to somebody else for solace. Gross!
Keep in mind that it’s almost like a religion to some of the posters here, so they have the same rigid intolerance that religious zealotry brings to the table. A few of them are actually quite religious as well, and in the past have attacked chumps for dating before the divorce was final.
I apologize on behalf on CN for their behaviour.
And in grief, emotions go all over the place. I would encourage those piling on here to perhaps consider that and check the grief literature.
After losing my daughter, I was so desperate just for some plain old kindness (being at the time unaware that besides being cold and cruel, my exFW was doing the whole merry bisexual fucking strange thing). I developed a mini-crush on a friend – married to another friend – just because he was a very kind man at the time. It was all in my head and passed soon enough.
I don’t know if you even need to hang a label like “emotional affair” on reaching out to an ex. Close friendships in times of grief and isolation can be extremely meaningful, and important.
Ultimately tho, CL is 100% right. The aim of the game is to gain contentment and peace all on your own.
“Yes I had an emotional affair with my highschool sweetheart. It consisted of us playing video games online together and flirting verbally. A lot of people seem to be really twisted sideways about that.”
Guessing CL’s “Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life” struck a chord and that’s why you’re here.
kyriealaina, As Chumplady and others said, the EA with High School friend is NOT equivalent to your monstrous FW nightmare. Mostly, CN is a helpful, supportive, generous, empathetic bunch. The ONE thing we all share is being chumped, which means each and every one of us was emotionally abused. You may not have grasped that fully when your reached out to CL.
In several comments you got defensive about the EA, but did acknowledge being “stupid”. Gently, guess what I’m trying to do is support you while at the same time hoping you’ll look at the EA from my (our) point of view – read the room here – put yourself in our shoes.
FW betrayed me with a High School girlfriend. The betrayal started online with “flirting verbally.” And ended with both my mental and physical health in tatters.
Hope you find help and solace here, kyriealaina.
Okay hold up just a second. My husband had already given me HIV and had been cheating on me for several years, so I flirted with a highschool boyfriend. Yep, I sure did. I am starting to slowly realize I never should have used the term emotional affair in my original letter because clearly, I was defining it wrong. I’m done defending myself here.
It’s not equivalent. My point in the letter is please work on yourself and get free. And later you’ll be in a healthier place to consider a relationship. Where you are now isn’t healthy for you or any partner worth their salt.
I agree, not equivalent, but surprised by all the people rushing to apologize & absolve her 100% because *abuse* Well, my cheater also pulls out a “mean wife” abuse story too as an excuse. I feel like we’re being all chumpy here totally justifying her behaviour. Have you noticed OP obviously isn’t a shrinking violet either? She’s been rather snarky in a lot of her replies. Anywho, am done with this for today. We can agree to disagree on this. Have a great rest of your day, folks!
You’re really something else. Swoop in, attack someone, blame them when they react, then act sanctimonious about it and passive-aggressively bow out acting as if you were somehow the aggrieved party. I don’t know what you thought you were accomplishing in this thread.
Wow. Because she stood up for herself, defending herself from warrantless, callous attacks, that’s somehow proof that she’s a bad person? You’re bothered because she’s not the “perfect victim” and called the bullshit out instead of being sweetly submissive? That’s bizarre.
Are you trying to claim she’s making up her story to excuse flirting with a friend? If so, that’s ludicrous. Why would she come here to do that?
Bottom line; he cheated repeatedly and he gave her HIV. Anything she did after that he asked for and deserved and then some.
Yes, 100% she deserves a pass.
I’ve noticed CN’s comment section has gotten progressively meaner over the last year or so. I’m not even talking about blunt but helpful feedback, just people being callous assholes to prop themselves up. It’s made me start to rethink my participation here, frankly.
Yeah, I’ve noticed it too.
I don’t feel good about coming here when there’s pile-on bullying like this. The other thing is very few posters stated objections to it.
We should always confront bullying on here, especially when it’s as cruel and callous as this. Thank you for that.
I remember quite some time ago there was a chump who was similarly ganged up on for having a boyfriend before the divorce was final. I was disappointed to be the only one defending her.
My snarky replies are mostly to you. Why do I have to be a shrinking violet??? Justifying WHAT behavior? I wish we could all be the perfect shining example you must be to your family and friends.
Kyrieaialia, I’M WITH YOU ON THIS! It seems perverse for others to blame you for reaching out to an old boyfriend, considering the depths of hell you were in with your husband.
100%!
Well, as we say around here, you can divorce someone instead of cheating. Yes, it sounds like you were in a toxic soup, but values should hold even then. I’m not trying to entirely bust your chops, but yeah you’re not getting my entire sympathy.
Look here, I never cheated on anyone. I never should have used the term emotional affair because clearly I’m not defining it right. My husband had already given me HIV and had been cheating on me for several years, so I flirted with a highschool boyfriend.I don’t want or need a drop of your sympathy.
Yeah, suddenly the “divorce, don’t cheat, walk away ethically” mantra we hear around no longer applies. Equivilant or not, cheating is cheating and we got two of ’em here.
Nope. He cheated. He broke the monogamous agreement, which then became null and void. He gave her HIV, FFS. She owed him exactly nothing.
dude bite me I never cheated on ANYONE My husband had already given me HIV and had been cheating on me for several years, so I flirted with a highschool boyfriend.
Do you know how many of us ended up with life-long diseases and lifelong medical issues from our FWs and never ended up in an emotional affair with our exes?
Your defensiveness says it all. You need some self-reflection first and foremost.
She’s defensive because she’s being attacked. That’s what people do when they are attacked- they defend themselves.
The standard leave a cheater advice does not apply to her. She’d be living on disability payments of $900 a month and has zero family support.
You are being excessively doctrinaire. Some chumps really are in an impossible position and this is one of them. Her abusive scumbag cheater is not entitled to her emotional fidelity just because she’s stuck with him for financial reasons. They aren’t in a monogamous marriage.
Your personal integrity doesn’t depend on someone else’s. All the “Oh, its ok cause he cheated first” does is add to the toxic mess. Obviously, she came here looking for advice, and as people pointed out that she holds a piece of accountability for the stew with the decisions she made for herself, she wasn’t ready to hear that and got defensive.
I do wish you health & peace going forward, kyriealaina.
“I wish someone would’ve directed you to a women’s shelter and told you how to press criminal charges. Instead, they sent you home with that monster.”
I cannot believe this is how she was treated at the doctor’s office… how is THAT not criminal???
To the OP… I ended also up financially dependent on my ex as well… we deteriorate in these conditions the abusers subject us to.. but there is a way. It may take some undercover planning and time but it’s doable. After trying 3x to leave but running headlong into those financial issues, I took some time the last round and got to work on fixing those things. Like Tracy said… look into disability for the HIV or at the very least SSI for having not worked in so long. That’s the route I had to go. I also got housing assistance and food stamps. I am able to maintain my own apartment which I secured all undercover before what my kids and I title “The Big GrabnGo”… he went to work one day and we packed all my stuff into a truck and I left. I left a simple statement letter saying I left and would not be back and do not contact me.
Is it hard some days? Yes.. at my age I accepted I would most likely be single for the rest of my life and yea it sucks some days… until I remember how peaceful my life is and I don’t have to clean up after a man who weaponizes incompetence or threatens my existence. I wouldn’t trade a hard but peaceful day on this side for one so-called “good” day with the ex.
This nation will guide and support you… reach out.. it’s how I got strong enough to know I deserved better than the shit sandwich I was being forced to eat. I love myself a little bit better each and every day. It’s taken some intense therapy but I’m at peace today and that is priceless.
I have SS Disability. Its 900 a month. I don’t qualify for other help because of his income. It’s a catch 22 I can’t afford to go anywhere but I can’t afford to stay My friend wants to help and is trying to buy land so maybe I can get a van to live in or a shed to convert into a place to live, but yeah years more of this miserable existence seem inevitable.
The following info is USA based and will not apply to other countries. I hope it helps someone.
I should have included this info … there is a federal law called the “The Violence Against Women Act). Not many places/orgs know about it OR what’s in it and that can be used to your advantage. Invoke this and watch people scramble to address your needs.. if it wasn’t so frustrating it would be comical. So in my state, if you are in a DV situation, you go to the tippy top of the waiting list for housing assistance. We have a state org where the most you’d pay is 30% and I have yet to pay the full 30%. When I stated clearly on the app that I am in a DV situation… we were also not married and I was in a separate room so we had separate finances and that helped. I never said we were in a relationship and didn’t lie when I said he was forcing me to do labor in exchange and that he had raped me. All these things were true so I never lied. I may have massaged the truth a bit to get the help I needed which felt gross but my life was at stake… that is not behavior I continue to use. I do discern hard today tho who needs info from me today and who doesn’t. I’ve learned to not overexplain. I got the housing assistance within 2 months max.
Low income Federal housing is similar and the most you would pay is 30%.. but again with low income you won’t even pay that. I would also imagine and hope that your Disability would go up once his income isn’t counted. Either that or straight SSI which is not much more but every bit helps right now.
The bottom line is invoke the Federal Domestic Violence Act wherever you need help… these orgs don’t know what’s in it nor are they going to read through it… so they fall all over themselves to accomodate your needs rather than face a lawsuit for ignoring your pleas of help.
To continue… I would have DHHS food stamps lined up for when I left.. that will change without his income as well. If you’re not married.. claim you fix meals separate and are not financially connected. Reach out to local DV shelters to setup food assistance. I used Meals on Wheels for the first couple of months … they ask for a donation but are firm that it is NOT required. But again… with my state’s DHHS… once I identified I was in a domestic violence situation… they offered more services. I also got help with a deposit and moving expenses. That is ONLY available in a DV situation so don’t hestitate to use this info.
I didn’t have to provide police reports or pics. I did have a literal team of mental health support. I had a Case Manager, a therapist, a med provider and a Peer Support Specialist. They can all facilite/support DV statements. I had two local DV shelters on call… the one in my county wasnt very helpful and found one in another county that even tho she couldn’t physically do anything to help me… she ALWAYS took a call when I most needed it. (Side story… she visited me in my new apartment and to meet her and give her a giant hug. Also, because I moved to a different county I had to switch to a new therapist. I luckily found a great one. The kicker is that the DV lady was the replacement for my therapist when she went into practice.. my therapist had actually trained her for that DV position so they literally knew each other!!! It was one of those kismet moments ya know.)
I had a backpack where I put all my important papers and got backpack locks for it. I was part of a mental health support group and just told him it was private paperwork for that. I put contact names in my phone that were covers. For ex… Deb at Park Place Apartments became Deb Park. The DV advocate in the other country became Sherri Rail (org name was Underground Railroad).. so in case he ever saw that come across my phone.
I separated our stuff under the guise of “organizing”… I never told him was I was doing no matter how much I wanted to and with the story of Dee Warner coming out, I am so glad I didn’t. He went to work one day and my daughter and SIL came in and we threw all my stuff in a UHaul and hauled ass. Never spoke to that @$$hat again.
It’s been the most peaceful 2 1/2 years of my life and worth the time it took to carefully plan a safe exit.
Any hard day on this side is better than any so-called “good” day with the ex. I hope you find that peace as well. <3
I wish that too. No one directed me anywhere except out of their office as fast as they could legally get me out the door. I have reached out. I have found little to no help. The only help I have is one friend who stood by me. Family has turned their backs.
Please see my reply about invoking the Federal Domestic Violence act with these organizations… it made a difference to me. They don’t know what’s in it so they’ll fall all over themselve to help rather than risk a lawsuit. It will put you straight to the top of housing assistance waitlists.. gets additional help from DHHS. It can be a useful tool.
When I found out he had given me an STD, my doc told me to get a lawyer, which I did. She didn’t tell me to go home with him.
So glad you got that care!!
My doctor believed me to be unclean and wanted me out of her sight and out of her office ASAP and wouldn’t let me leave without him or a family member. My family turned their backs on me. What else was I supposed to do but get in the car with him and go to my own home with my own pets and grieve for my children?
I’m so sorry you experienced that… that “doctor” was no doctor and is inhuman.
What an unprofessional way for a doctor to behave! The doctor should be the one telling you that people now live with HIV and directing you to communities and resources.
I have an uncurable STD as well – nowhere as serious as HIV. I am on the one hand shocked for you that your family is not there to support you, and on the other hand have never told the majority of my family about my status because I know they couldn’t handle it.
As someone who also didn’t get to have kids / had health issues because I was caught up in abusive situations, my heart goes out to you for your loss.
You need to get away from this guy at all costs. You might have grown and developed your skills or talents or dreams in all kinds of undiscovered ways, if you had not been not interacting with an abuser for all these years. You’ll never know yourself until you’re away from him.
I copied the same phrase and was about to post on it, too. That was a terrible betrayal by the health providers who were responsible for your well-being.
The news about HIV on top of the loss of your unborn children was horrific. There are support groups that can help you grieve that prenatal loss, even 11 or more years later. And also groups for HIV. I hope you have also found a therapist competent to help you deal with these complex issues, as well as your cheating FW.
It can seem overwhelming to manage a divorce under any circumstances, and yours are complex. I wonder if your concern about finding another partner is not only for emotional reasons, but also because you are depending on cheater for financial support and management of daily finances, and don’t know how to manage on your own.
You can find agencies that will help you with bill paying and applications for financial aid and services. If you don’t know where to start, you can call your public library. If you are in the US, many communities let you call 411 for information and referral to what’s available. An HIV support agency may also be able to direct you to similar resources, as well as info about applying for disability. Any one of these agencies may be able to help you find a case manager, at no charge to you, to help you to financial independence.
There’s a lot of help available when you ask for it. You made a great first step coming here. Best of luck on the rest of your journey.
I’m in deep therapy. Where is all the help people keep talking about? I get turned down everywhere I go.
A lot of help is income based, but some is not if your fit into that particular organization’s service population, whether it’s age, religion, a specific diagnosis, a specific offense against you, a specific need (such as eyeglasses or furniture), etc. It can be time-consuming and frustrating to find help. You might want to ask why you are turned down, and if they can direct you anywhere. Also, some religious organizations will help people who are not part of their faith.
https://womenhiv.org/resources/resources-for-women-living-with-hiv/
There is a lot to unpack, so I will leave it at this. Is all of what has happened to you acceptable and worth continuing this relationship? Is repeatedly exposing yourself to STD risks and further degradation of your physical and mental health worth the cost over the possibility of being alone?
Thank you for asking this question… when I came to Chump Nation as a newbie and asked the question whether porn is infidelity… I received a ton of affirmation. But the most important comment was.. “Is this acceptable to you?”. The resounding “NO!” that exploded with finality in my brain set me in motion. This group literally saved my life.
Turns out he was physically cheating too… as many do.. I got confirmation post leaving.
I haven’t wanted to continue this relationship for years. We’ve had separate beds in separate rooms for years now. I want out. I am disabled and on 900 dollars a month from social security. My medical bills alone wipe me out monthly. Everyone gets so indignant till they are the ones faced with living with it or living in a tent.
Agree. You are in a terrible position and not getting nearly the empathy and understanding you deserve.
Feel free to contact me at bicoastalkyle@gmail.com if you need more support. I see that you have no family and only one friend. That has to be tough having so few people to lean on. 🩷
Oh my God I’m so angry about this and getting angrier still that, as far as I can see, there’s no support group for women who contract HIV or any kind of STD from infidelity despite the fact that adultery is reportedly the leading cause of new HIV cases among women in many countries (at least the countries tracking it).
It appears that, in western, developed countries, we only see scattered reports like this: https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45626460 It suggests that individuals like the OP are left wandering the wilderness to find tailored support for both the domestic abuse that fueled being infected as well as dealing with the catastrophe of HIV itself.
I see this as akin to attempted domestic murder. The OP is a battered woman x 100 with the whole paralyzing survival syndrome that comes with it.
Leaving an abusive marriage requires planning and a support system. Put together a team of domestic abuse professionals and your own attorney. Begin with or change individual therapist, move important documents and possessions to a secure location, begin a serious wellness plan with your PCP, update your resume/training and pursue employment.
It’s scary, but change is within YOUR control. It’s lonely, but the new people in your life will be there by YOUR choice.
If I were twenty years younger, not disabled and on 900 a month from social security that would all sound great. I use a cane. My medical bills alone wipe me out every month. I have no friends save one and my family want nothing to do with me. There’s no longer any employment for me to pursue. I’m already in therapy. They are sympathetic but no one is offering to help me get out of this. I tell everyone I want out. Everyone is sorry. So sorry.
This may set people’s hair on fire but this totally disgusting pig you married should be charged with MURDER of your babies 1st degree. Attempted murder of YOU,Assault with a deadly weapon ( yes that organ ), libel, deceit, ..I’m not a lawyer so cannot think of the list which would only be a start. I had STIs for 2 years straight and stopped taking baths, which I love to do, because maybe I was giving these infections to myself.??? My cheater blamed me all the while knowing what he was doing. So many antibiotics and pills he watched me swallow..After I locked him out, I have not had another infections for 2 years and take my baths again. That is so mild in comparison but my cheater would have passed on HIV too, he just didn’t catch it yet. He could have passed on anything. He.did.NOT.CARE.THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT US. Chisel that in stone. Please escape your prison…you have been abducted by an alien 👽 who could end your life. You are not loved. Sorry, not loved at all. He is a murderer and a liar.
I also received an STD_HSV 2. Luckily not when I was pregnant. I was talking to my OB during an annual appt right around DDay and she ordered the blood panel. Even with herpes there is a stimulus about it in the dating world. I have come to terms it is what it is. So folks, I can’t stress enough to get yourself tested upon discovery.
I have great friends and have a few years left with kiddo before college. I meet new fun people and get out quite often. I love my freedom after years of abuse. Even my kiddo wants me to start dating and I don’t want to, too busy. Ha! It’s been 7 years and it’s ok. I also got long covid 2.5 years ago, so definitely don’t have energy for dating. Financially it was a struggle post separation. I even had to pay him alimony. Alimony is done and I am feeling free. It’s so amazing, even at poor.
Nice for you. Good luck.
I think the emotional affair and the fixation on dating is worrying, not just because she should be focusing on her wellbeing and safety, but because it presupposes that a new romantic relationship is a valid way to rescue herself from her situation. BAD idea.
Her current state of vulnerability is going to make her an easy mark for some predatory asshole. She needs to find a way to be her own Knight in Shining Armor, with the help of other, non-romantic relationships.
I’m not going to sit here and make excuses for an emotional affair. Her hands aren’t clean, but that doesn’t change the fact that she’s gone through Hell. What it says to me is that she is desperately trying to find a person to be a life raft for her escape, and that is not going to work.
“She is desperately trying to find a person to be a life raft for her escape, and that is not going to work.”
Well said, ChumpDDump. And not the least reason is that the people who would line up to rescue her may not be the healthiest people or the best potential relationship partners. She mind wind up in something just as bad as what she’s in now.
Okay everyone keeps referring to my emotional affair. Okay I’m so glad everyone is so above all this. Yeah after I found out my husband had been cheating on me for years, the highschool sweetheart that I was already friends with yes I started having romantic feelings towards him again. Never acted on them but oh yes I’m so the bad guy here.
Kyriealaina, if you can, just walk away from these comments about the emotional affair. These comments really shock me!
I’ve found Chump Nation to be, in general, a group of smart and compassionate people. But I guess it’s really hard for people to understand where you were at that time unless they have themselves gone through the kind of massive, compounded betrayal, abuse, and loss you were experiencing.
But I think Tracy gets it, and THAT’S WHY SHE DIDN’T COMMENT ON THE EMOTIONAL AFFAIR IN HER RESPONSE. I am a big stickler for faithfulness, myself; but to me, as a reader, this emotional affair carries zero negative moral connotation, within your account of your history with this abusive man.
Big hugs. –Leedy
I agree with your basic point that moving on too quickly after abuse isn’t optimal but I want to argue that her situation is within the one category of situations in which what she did is not “cheating.” Battering victims can’t “cheat” either in a technical or moral sense because they’re not actually in relationships, they’re in– as CL put it– hostage situations.
Absolutely right.
YES.
I was making the point that no one is going to want me EVER. I have no interest in even the possibility of dating for years if ever so everyone can just calm tf down.
(I keep posting too soon) Some might not agree that the OP is, for all intents and purposes, a battered woman but I think it’s evidence enough that she’s got life-threatening injuries from chronic abuse regardless of whether these were caused by a tire iron or rape by deception. In a psychological sense she’s arguably a victim of attempted murder-suicide at the hands of someone who was supposed to be the closest person to her and she’s also arguably the mother of murdered children.
This establishes the kind of person who would do the above (and furthermore not lose sleep over it) as terrifyingly dangerous and potentially capable of anything which means any partner is a hostage of fear. It also doesn’t matter if fear of being killed isn’t the emotion the victim is leading with in describing how they currently feel because part of classic Stockholm syndrome is keeping that fear remote from consciousness as part of the “ruse” that victims and hostages use to survive, keep things calm on the surface and avoid escalation.
And if any more evidence is needed that the OP was in a trap, look what happened when that “ruse” of normalcy failed her and her real emotions broke through at the GYN’s office. They– quite unconscionably– had her restrained like a mental patient and, like a scene out of Rosemary’s Baby, they sent her straight back to the devil. Especially to anyone in the direct heat of trauma, that’s a very strong social message that there’s no social “net” to catch victims of this specific kind of domestic violence when they’re removed from the abuse, the psychological grip of Stockholm syndrome weakens and all the emotions they’ve been suppressing in order to survive come roaring back to life and they crash. Though, in a better world, what the abuser in this situation did should be a crime and the doctor’s office would have called police and shelter advocates to do triage, instead she was treated like a lunatic, now has a permanent stigmatizing mark on her medico-legal history and was sent back to the abuser.
I think this is an important discussion in general in this forum because, statistically, battered women– even those who would never in a million years do this in a normal relationship– are apparently slightly more likely than average to “monkey branch” (overlap relationships) if simply to have a bodyguard and support system on hand as they make their escapes.
None of this is to say that monkey branching is the best choice if simply because battered women have a 50% risk of landing with a subsequent abuser due to the fact that playing rescuer is the guise of a lot of abusers. But it’s not a case of victims idly putting themselves in danger because of some lifelong, preexisting psychological issues or “attraction to abusers” or a matter of victims displaying poor moral character as inveterate cheaters. It’s more akin to a drowning person grabbing onto anything that looks like it floats and then finding out it’s a shark.
I think that, as we circle the wagons against abuse apologists like Perel and their endless campaigns to whitewash cheating as “not abuse,” it’s important not to fall into the defensive trap of thinking that exempting anyone from the usual moral rules about infidelity is an opening wedge to morally justify all of it. If anything, the fact that battered women sometimes feel their only chance to survive during escape is under the protection of a new partner simply makes it that much more egregious, reprehensible and vile that so many cheaters (like every batterer does, as it happens) pretend to be victims of their own victims and try to hog and taint that single moral exemption.
so if I truly am “battered”. What does that change? How does it help?
You should have been afforded the social support and legal, financial and practical resources that any victim of domestic abuse or violent crime should be offered. The fact that we don’t live in a world that provides these kinds of compensations to people who’ve gone through what you did means we still live in the dark ages in terms of social awareness and justice. That should be unsettling to anyone who values justice or worries about what kind of world they’re sending their children into.
So many hugs to you Kyriealaina. What you have endured is just beyond. Just to chime in re your question here. There is the potential to reframe your view of yourself as being coercively trapped by this man you trusted and who you are currently dependent on. The powerful thing here is perhaps you can use the knowledge you have of him and how he operates, to craft your way out by “lining up ducks” in ways that take your power back. Lots of practical things. Sorry if any of this is info you already have, however many Chump Nation members have escaped bad situations by starting very small and one day at a time type of approach. Stashing gift certificates from weekly shopping as an example. Selling anything of value using social media. Offer your neighbors to do pet sitting while they are at work for cash fee. You are an articulate writer and you tell a story succinctly and well which is a talent. Have you thought about doing this and being paid for it? Anything that will allow you to build up a small nest egg out of the knowledge (and, critically, the control) of your abuser. While he is at work (if he works!) or at least while he is pursuing his real passion which is new and escalating risky sex which clearly he puts a lot of time and effort into, so use that time while his attention is focused elsewhere to start cutting off those chains. What you need are practical doable solutions. You can’t heal until you are out of this nightmare.
I also worry about your isolation as your abusive husband’s lifestyle seems to have alienated you from family. You need more support to give you the extra wind under those fragile wings. This is a different problem which others may have suggestions for you. I am noting it, as I worry you are also being discriminated against and judged for your choices, by possibly many (starting with that horrendous doctor as just one example) rather than being seen and heard as a legit victim of an abusive situation.
So I feel that understanding yourself in this way reassures you that this is not your fault. No matter if “both sides” aka blame shifting nonsense is in play. That is simply another negative side effect in this rather “perfect storm” you find yourself in. We are here to help. Tracy’s advice is golden.
Many hugs to you ❤️
PS if you start a GoFundMe I would love to donate xx
Starting something like a gofundme seems like it would target me. I’m too scared to do something like that. Thank you for your kind words though.
Your story would be a shock to the conscience for a lot of people and I think many would want to donate to help out and just as many would understand the reasons for remaining anonymous. I also wish there was a specific support group for people in your exact circumstances so you wouldn’t feel like a sitting duck or sole poster child and like the only person in the world standing up for this because you absolutely aren’t alone, either in your circumstances or in terms of people who would care. As I mentioned before, adultery is the leading cause of new HIV infections among women around the world. This has to stop.
Ah.. yes, that seems reasonable and something I hadn’t thought of but people do start GoFundMe requests for all manner of things so — is there anyway you could do it under a pseudonym? Perhaps you could contact the people at GoFundMe admin and explain the situation requires privacy and is special circumstances? You would have donors here in Chump Nation, I feel sure. The only downside is the platform takes a sizable chunk of the donations (they withhold for taxes and their fees) however it is the best way to obtain a lump sum of money whatever amount it may be from a wide range of sources.
Let Tracy know if you do start one.
There are many kind and generous people around.
Yeah, I agree. I don’t see her “emotional affair” as cheating, but rather a frantic attempt by a trauma victim to find a life raft. I was lumping in the “emotional affair” (I’ll use scare quotes there) with her fixation on being un-datable as understandable, but ultimately dangerous strategies of viewing new romantic relationships as a way to evacuate herself from a traumatic situation. We all need lifelines and support, but a romantic relationship is not the answer, IMO.
I really hope the “clean hands” remark didn’t sound judgmental. I was actually trying to minimize my view of it. Like a person who looted a grocery store during Katrina: was it illegal? Ok. But you were in a traumatic situation and you were trying to survive.
The Katrina analogy is perfect.
thank you. Yeah I was trying to find a way out, not gonna lie. I have mental issues from all this so clearly I wasn’t making the best choice, and it ultimately didn’t work out anyway. I’m not interested in dating now. I was stating that no one is going to want me EVER.
I apologize for writing my experience over yours. I’ve hit many of the same bumps as you, in differing degrees, and so I made a presumptuous comment. I contracted an STD because of exFW. I monkey-branched from one bad relationship right into the trauma tree of my marriage, and I watched my mother do that for both marriage number two and number three. I started a new relationship when we were separated but before the ink was dry on our divorce. I lashed out at friends and family when I was in crisis mode.
That may not be your experience, and I’m sorry for overwriting my experience on top of yours.
If I could go back in time and give myself advice, I would tell myself to be extremely wary of the people who want to have a romantic relationship with me when I am vulnerable and fresh off the trauma bus. But that’s the thing with being in the midst of crisis – it’s damn near impossible to know what the right thing to do is.
Ding, ding, ding. I think a lot of us have went through I touched the hot stove phase after divorce and found ourselves in a rebound we had no business being in. I know I did and boy that was a mess, the validation was not worth it. The sharks are out there, and we’re just chum in the water.
Yeah, if I’d taken the time to recover from my abuser 1st husband I never would have married my piece of shit cheater 2nd.
Abuse victims tend to make poor partner choices if they’re looking while they’re either still being abused or fresh out of it.
My whole marriage was a hot stove, lol. ExFW pounced on me the literal day after I broke up with my long-term girlfriend. She persisted past my stated boundaries of “I just broke up and I need some space.” I swear that narcissists are able to sniff vulnerability like sharks smell blood in the water.
At_A_loss 57. I am the same age as you are and my ex was the “open relationship” dude. Although he was not gay. So much lying. Girl you have to wake up and take care of yourself. There is help out there you have to reach out and start down the path. What he did to you was criminal. I have been free for five years. I am not dating. I have a life full of love and people. I am just getting ready to think about dating but its been a ton of therapy later. You can get out. We are all behind you. I am sorry he did this to you. Run!
Run where? How?
We don’t know what state you are in, or what country, but you could start here:
When I realized I had to leave I got in touch with the local domestic violence organization. They have programs that sometimes help with housing. Not shelters. My friend and her son got their apt deposit and half the rent was covered for two years! That totally got her on her feet. I saw 18 lawyers via zoom for the free consultation of 1 hour each asked each a different set of questions. It got me a good idea of what my rights were. I would also talk to lawyers about bringing a civil suit because of the HIV. Fuckwits notoriously are financial abusers. I left with my kids and their furniture and my clothes. That was it. Then he abandoned my kids who were teens at the time. You have to look for the opportunities and don’t give up. Make calls and don’t stop. So much is online and on zoom these days you can access the help. Hang in there.
The therapy I got from the local domestic violence organization was SO helpful as well. I have a regular therapist now but that group had a great program and got me well on my way to healing. It was 100% free
My bf’s brother has had HIV for years and you’d never know. He takes medication and is fine….it’s not the death sentence it used to be.
Tracy is right….you’re making a mistake worrying about dating. You’ve reduced yourself to either this scumbab or another man, when you could make a perfectly nice scumbag free life by yourself with a social circle.
Once you’re free of this piece of shit then you can look into groups for people with HIV. Over a million people in the US live with it and 13% don’t know it. And there may be more.
But even if you don’t find a partner so what? Is not being alone really worth living with this piece of shit?
You can do it….get out now.
How exactly do I do this? Shelters aren’t an option, they steal your belongings and you can only stay two weeks in most. I have two mature cats I can’t and won’t abandon them. I am on SS Disablilty. I get 900 bucks a month. Medicaid requires me to pay a spend down of over 1000 dollars a month. Besides HIV I have multiple disability related chronic issues including needing a cane. I can barely walk anymore.
As far as being worried about dating I’m not worried about it now. I’m worried about it EVER. I mean no I am not interested in hooking up with someone else now, but it’s nice to think maybe sometime in the future I might finally have someone to care about me? But yeah, that’s doubtful.
I’ve looked into the HIV groups out of curiosity and they are a great place for gay men to connect.
Yeah okay he’s a piece of shit. Agreed. So I go live in a tent? What are my choices here?
Have you spoken to a lawyer? You might be entitled to a good deal of alimony and the fact that he gave you HIV might incent him to settle.
A judge may not look kindly on that and your douchebag hb may not want that aired in public.
It’s horrible that you have it. But since you do leverage it to get whatever you can in a divorce. In addition to alimony all assets are at least half yours.
And if he eventually leaves you you’ll have to rebuild anyway. At least this way you might be able to control it.
He’ll never leave. He has NOWHERE to go and NO-ONE in the world but me. I cook, clean, and make a home. He will NEVER leave, I’d dance a jig.
“It’s hard to ask for this level of help from anyone” — I know exactly what you mean, At a Loss.
What I learned, to my surprise, is that once you conquer your reluctance to ask for help, you discover that people are very willing to help, and want to help, and are happy to be given an opportunity to help.
My experience so far except for one friend that has stuck by me, that everyone has turned their backs on me. I’ve humbled myself and begged my family for help but they have ignored me or said they can’t afford to help and don’t have room for me and my two cats.
I’m so sorry you aren’t finding the support you need, but very glad you have that one friend as a lifeline.
Dear at_a_loss_57,
Devastating story, and I’m very sorry. But one of the biggest ways we help each other around here is to share pieces of our story.
I was in my late 50’s after being married for 40 years when my life exploded. I was financially dependent upon him due to disability, was a full-time caregiver of a parent in my home, broke to the point dire (thanks to him). There’s obviously much more loss attached to that story, but suffice it to say I had less than zero and had no ungodly idea how I could get out and figure out a way to survive.
But I did. I got out, healed, slowly rebuilt and went on to live a much more fulfilling and authentic life. And I did it all without his help, and without choosing to re-partner. Yes, finding ways to do it all on my own was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do in life, but it was also one of the best things that ever happened to me.
Look, all those little ‘I can’t’ statements in your head aren’t roadblocks, they are obstacles. You alone have the choice to start finding ways to navigate yourself around them. Seriously. My situation felt completely hopeless to me at the time, but I kept digging until I started finding ways around all those obstacles. I DIDN’T want to be doing any of that, and it was all so freaking unfair, but those emotions weren’t going to serve me, let alone save me. I had to stop focusing on those things, and CHOOSE survival. I dug in and didn’t stop until I found ways to make it happen. You CAN do that too.
Consider joining one of the Chump Lady support groups (Facebook, reddit–the joining info is here on the CL site under the ‘community’ tab). We’re can offer lots of information and help along the way.
(((hugs)))
I think joining the various groups is a particularly good idea because people share resources. I think people like our letter writer are so exhausted and worn down and embittered by horrible experiences they’re like at the bottom of the deepest well and they can barely see that little light at the top where the sun is. But people in these groups can help her to find footholds and climb out. At 57, even with HIV she still has time for a better life even if she can’t see it right now. We all know that but she hasn’t see it yet. That’s why I’d urge her to have faith, some spiritual faith, because that’s stronger than the day to day bullshit we drown in. It really is a journey of baby steps but I after being here for over a year and reading through the archives, I can see the progress in so many people and I know she can have progress too.
I love your distinction between “roadblocks” (meaning insumountable) and “obstacles” (what can be maneuvered around). Learning how to reframe all the ways you think you can’t leave is really important. “Can I leave” feels really huge and scary and impossible, but when you break it down into specifics, you can begin to see them as tasks (see a lawyer, start looking at housing costs, look for an apartment, etc), and tasks are something that we all complete daily.
Yes, exactly!! And honestly, I was surprised at how much mentally easier it was when I approached those obstacles as necessary ‘tasks’ instead of always looking at the bigger pile of scary unknowns. I didn’t realize at the time that all the advice I kept getting about taking everything in ‘baby steps’, was, in fact, useful to to keep us from focusing on the huge/scary/impossible. And it works 🙂
If I didn’t know that Tracy fact checks letters, I would think this letter was a hoax, because what happened to the letter writer is so extreme and so awful! So much that happened to the letter writer is among the worst of what I’ve read here. Not only the HIV diagnosis but she miscarried only to find out she’d lost twins!
Tracy and Chump Nation members who’ve gotten out of terrible situations have offered good advice about concrete steps the letter writer can take, which can help her feel less overwhelmed about leaving. My only comment to the letter writer is that staying will make it more difficult to leave, because when you’re being actively undermined, the longer you stay the more your self-esteem and confidence plummets.
This was my letter. I didn’t make up or lie about anything. It has taken me over 11 years to tell this story to someone. I felt like a fool then and I feel like a fool now.
You have no idea how grateful we all are to you that you found the strength to tell your story. Your story may be dark but the light comes from you for having the courage to share it. What happened to your represents the gun that was waved at all of us– the darkest threat we all felt subjected to but could never prove was real. Maybe the “gun” didn’t go off in everyone’s case but no one ever gets over the feeling of having the barrel graze their head and knowing it was aimed at us by the people we trusted most.
You have more guts than a battalion and not a single person here thinks you’re a fool.
We all feel like fools for staying when we should have left. It’s ok its moving forward which is important.
Kyriealaina,
I’m sorry that what I wrote struck you as unfeeling or that it seemed as if I didn’t believe you. I know that Tracy checks all the bona fides, so I know your story is just as you wrote it. All I wanted to do was to emphasize how terrible your experience has been, far worse than many of ours, my experience included.
That you have found the courage to speak now, after such a traumatic experience, and after so many additional years of trauma, is something for you to be proud of. Far from disbelieving you, I admire your courage.
The lesson in this story is people rarely change. How they conducted themselves before a wedding is how they will conduct themselves again a few years down the road.
thanks so much for your comment. I feel so much better now.
It was simply an observation on most marriages.
My heart is breaking for you.
i hope you are on Prep and have good doctors for the HIV care. Have you considered joining any support groups for the wives of gay men? Do you qualify for government assistance or any financial help if you are to divorce?
Cross dressing is a Fetish.
In nice society we no longer “kink shame,” but paraphilias become stronger with age and can dominate a persons actions. Very few men deny themselves the release they feel from kinky sexual indulgences. We all need to learn these actions will only get stronger. It is a very self serving, self referential sexuality. These men are not capable of truly having an emotional sexual connection with a partner—although they can fake it for years if it suits their purpose.
My STBX has a hooker Fetish (he eroticizes the sex worker, and needs the sneaking around and dirtiness of the sex, and then coming home with the secret. So it’s not just sex, it’s an entire part of his personality.) He finally found a therapist to label it a “maladaptive coping strategy” and so he can jettison anything that makes him “unhappy”—like adulting. So now he doesn’t have to “cope” with a sick wife and his financial misdeeds.
I understand your attempts at an emotional connection with an old flame didn’t work out and has drawn some criticism here. Just remember ChumpLady always says “If it feels good, don’t do it.” So instead of slashing his tires, or drinking vodka, you were just trying to make yourself feel a little better with a new human. You learned. Unfortunately, the cavalry is not coming, no one can save us but ourselves. Bleak but true.
You are not alone, we are all here to help you keep going forward.
You know your husband doesn’t care about you. Your job is to care about yourself.
This was my story. I didn’t lie or make up anything. I am aware of how you can live a long and healthy life with HIV. I take my meds the way I’m supposed to and I’ve always been undetectable from the beginning. I haven’t shared a bed or a bedroom with him in years. I appreciate the kind words and the kind comments. I’ve tried to get help many times and believe me when I tell you there’s little to none available for me. Most people who hear my story either call me a liar, because NO ONE could be that stupid (except me. No one is more aware of what a stupid complete failure I am than me.I appreciate the reminders though.), or they are horrified and block me out, or they say so sorry and go about their day. It has not been my experience that there is any “help” available to me.
My family turned their backs on me because of the HIV and my spouse’s lifestyle. I had to leave my home state. I have one friend who has stood by me and she’s my only support now but she has her own life, own family, own troubles – understandably there’s not a lot she can do but listen.
Yes I had an emotional affair with my highschool sweetheart. It consisted of us playing video games online together and flirting verbally. A lot of people seem to be really twisted sideways about that. I had this emotional affair while my spouse was going off and having sex with casual partners at sex parties. Sorry for needing someone to care about me.
I have been wanting to tell my story for a lot of years, but I was afraid of the judgement. Well, it definitely hurts but I own it. I’m sorry I was stupid and I’m sorry I made poor choices. I need help. I want my freedom. I’ve wanted it for years. I simply cannot afford my own place. I have been told by shelters I can stay up to two weeks and don’t bring personal possesions because they’ll be stolen. Obviously its not s safe place, and I have two older cats and I’m not gonna abandon them. So what does an old fool do in this situation? Who do I call? Thanks for listening.
Call UnitedWay/211 and tell them your story. They should be able to point you in the right direction for housing and depending on region services to start to address the underlying trauma and issues. I am so sorry. You are not a liar. You are a survivor!
thanks I appreciate you.
Have you spoken to social services to get on a waiting list for housing? Tried the legal help line at http://www.womenslaw.org? None of us are in your area and can help you with a plan. We can just tell you our stories, direct you to resources we know about, and listen. As a blog, we’re limited. Your experience sounds really frustrating.
I am trying to save enough money to file for divorce. I may be stuck living here for now, but I will eventually get enough saved to file. I’ve tried social services and I do get Medicaid for my health stuff. I get SS disability for my illnesses and I also have a physical disability that has developed as a complication. Long boring story. My one good friend is working full time and going to college to get a better job and she’s trying to get enough together to eventually buy a big piece of land here in this rural area. I just have to save until that happens and get a little camper or something and then I can go live with her. So a few more years of this. I don’t really know what else to try to get away faster. Thanks for replying Tracy.
I’m so sorry, I wish I could offer some practical advice but right now, I don’t know. Keep posting here because you will get tons of support and there are a lot of people who might have good ideas for you. The other suggestion I might make would be Reddit because there are so many tons of people over there and someone might have some practical ideas for you. I emphasize practical ideas because you know we are all so sympathetic to your story but sometimes it comes down to how do I have a place to live, and get my meds, and eat and so forth, which needs practical solutions. Have you talked to any divorce lawyer about your situation (I haven’t read all the comments yet)? Does your spouse have assets to split?
The one thing I would say to you, and I know it might not be welcome is that reading spiritual literature has been helpful to me in my life and to many others, especially the Bible. I don’t endorse organized religion, basically just disorganized ones, but I think something like the Bible gives us a sense of what the templates for life should be, what would be most successful and what happens when we fall away from that. It gives me a sense of the order that can exist in life and my place in it even when I don’t value myself. Perhaps it will give you some sense of belonging and purpose even when you don’t really feel that way about yourself. Every pebble has a place and a purpose and every person too.
Spirituality is awesome. I am in deep therapy and learning to meditate. It helps.
I read things like this and I am astounded that the tag “sent via the State Correctional Institution at ______ Internet Service” doesn’t show up on more of these posts. Because DAMN.
You have turned to the right place.
Get out. Divorce this idiot. Kick him out. He is a liar and a cheater and a traitor and is a threat to your health and that of others. He gave you HIV and did not tell you-pretty sure that in itself is illegal and will help your case.
This is not your fault.
There is help. There is treatment. You have a long life ahead of you. If love is something you want again-it will find you. But you need to work on YOU. Because this moron clearly isn’t going to be of any help in that regard and you deserve better.
No HIV (or any STDs, praise be to whoever is in charge) here, but I got the same “I’m a different person than you met me, I love differently, and need an open relationship.” And I did the same “sunk cost, I love you, I don’t want to be alone.” Only I kept to my guns about “no” until a moment of desperation during D-Day. And she still cheated.
And she still left. I haven’t laid eyes on her in a year or heard from her directly in about 7 months. And my life is So. Much. Better. No more walking on eggshells, no more lies and gaslighting, no more secrets, no more empty and broken promises, no more crying myself to sleep listening to her give my love to another man and then deny that they were more than friends because I was too big of a coward to kick her out. I want to start dating again(it’s in my programming and socialization too, better sense be damned.) I almost feel like I’d rather put myself through that meatgrinder again than endure another minute of somebody that would willfully hurt me.
Leaving is rough. But let me assure you-where you are is so much worse.
Feliz Jueves!
Thanks so much. I’m saving every penny. I’ll make it out one day.
At a Loss,
I am so very sorry for what you are going through and what you have lost. I’m glad to hear you have one friend who supports you. Some don’t even have that, and it is so important. It’s just terrible that your family won’t help you. I hope you will consider this: You are NOT stupid! You are NOT a failure! And this isn’t about “poor choices.” You are being abused. You’ve been traumatized. You are a survivor!! You have endured years of abuse and isolation, not to mention a miscarriage, being given HIV by the person closest to you, and chronic health problems. And I’m sure there is much more you’ve endured in the relationship than the sexual betrayal. And with all that, you are still fighting to get free and survive—that’s incredibly brave!
I have a few thoughts on resources and possible avenues of support: (I’m not affiliated with any of the specific organizations I mention—they’re just things that I personally found helpful.)
Chronic illness – There’s a program called Dynamic Neural Retraining System (DNRS) that has helped thousands of people recover from chronic illness, including (but not limited to) chronic fatigue, chronic pain, POTS, Lyme disease, mold illness, depression, anxiety, food sensitivities, chemical sensitivities, long Covid, and the list goes on and on. The website is retrainingthebrain.com. You will find many success stories that you can search by illness on the website. It sounds too good to be true, but it’s the real deal. Healing, or even just greatly reducing, chronic symptoms reduces healthcare costs and gives you the ability to work, so it can be a huge step toward freedom.
Narcissism/sociopathy/psychopathy – When I started to understand that my husband of 26 years was a narcissist and what that actually meant (it’s not just a derogatory name you call someone who’s a jerk), it was a game changer. I read books, listened to podcasts, read blogs, and eventually joined a private Facebook group and later an online support group through the Covert Narcissism Group (Renee Swanson is the founder). I ended up making a friend “in real life” through the support group. I learned the tactics he was using to emotionally abuse me and my son, and so I was able to start to break free of his manipulation. I don’t know what your husband is, but I think most, if not all, of these cheaters fall into the “Dark Triad.” It’s scary, but also empowering to learn about it.
Chump Nation (Infidelity Support) Facebook group – This is Tracy’s FB group, in case you weren’t aware of it. It’s private and the vast majority of people are supportive. There are occasionally assholes who will criticize or argue, but it’s not common, not allowed, and you can report them (and I think block them, but not sure).
I’m rooting for you. Never give up!
Thanks, I’m going to check it out!
At_A_Loss you mention your elderly cats being a roadblock to not being able to access a shelter, or making it difficult to stay somewhere else. Can you consider re-homing them? That’s not abandoning them, that’s finding them someplace safe to stay while you leave an unsafe living situation. We just had three large wildfires in our area a little over a week ago. Emergency services set up shelters where people can leave their animals while they are temporarily displaced. Are those people abandoning their pets? No! Of course not! But they are finding safer shelter for them when they had to evacuate for their own safety. Would your pets want you to suffer, just so they didn’t have to be separated from you? I think if they could talk, they would not expect that of you at all.
Two weeks in a domestic shelter may not be much, but it may connect you to other resources you can use.
I understand the desire to stay anonymous on here, but naming your region may allow other users to share links to specific resources that you may be able to access.
I appreciate what you’re saying, but this option would not work for me. Thanks though. Not that it matters, but I’m in central US very rural.
Wow. Your husband is a shit and your marriage has been over for a long time. Its now a business relationship. Think of it that way. Dont have sex with him anymore. He can have sex with men. If you cant mentally or physically afford to leave right now, thats ok. You can separate in the house. You can do a formal separation with paperwork. You can slowly extract yourself. He gave you HIV. If you want to go after him, you can look up your state laws and see if transmitting HIV is a crime. He done you wrong. Get a good therapist. Get some friends. Join a support group. Start changing your mindset. You are worthy.
thanks. We haven’t shared a bed or bedroom for several years. I don’t want to “go after him” but believe me I do understand people feeling this way. I just want everyone to be free, myself included. Peace to everyone, hate hasn’t helped me much.
Kyriealaina, I’m so sorry for what you went through, your husband is an evil, abusive *monster*, you’ve been through utter hell, you *must* leave him. Having said that, I have to say I rather wonder why you wrote to Chump Lady. The reason I’m saying that, is I’ve read through the entire thread now, and all your responses to what people have said to you, avenues of escape, places you can get help, etc, and you’re putting the kybosh on every single one. I totally understand what a horrible situation you’re in, but I think you need to listen to what people are advising. With regard to your cats, I’m in the UK, so I don’t know how it works in the US, but my local cat/dog shelter will take in animals for a short period when the owner is in a difficult situation, with the understanding the animal will be returned when the situation’s resolved. You could ask any local animal shelter about that. Alternatively, what about your friend? She might be willing to look after the cats for a while, until you get sorted, or your old boyfriend might. The thing is, you’ve been given a lot of good advice, but I’m afraid neither Chump Lady, or Chump Nation, can wave a magic wand and make everything magically disappear, I only wish we could! As others have said, it all seems horribly daunting/terrifying at first, but it really *is* a question of taking one step, then another, and it does get easier as you go, it’s that first step that’s the hardest, truly. I hope you find the impetus to take that first step, which should be to a divorce lawyer, to find out what your options are; they might be better than you think! Bless you. x
I’m in the US. You’re in the UK. I’d give anything to have some of the protections offered to you as a UK citizen, but I do not. Thanks for commenting.
Much to unpack here.
Baby steps towards your goal – break it down one step at a time until the goal of independence is reached.
First step is asking for help. You’re here asking for help and Chump Nation is willing. Seems you’re searching for exact, practical information.Your situation is complex – long term disabilities, HIV positive, domestic abuse, need for housing that accepts pets, pro bono divorce legal assistance, and so on. “Asking for this level of help from anyone is a lot” may be true for a friend, family member or typical CN member, but not true for a case manager or social worker. Helping people with complex needs to access assistance is their JOB. And they’ve heard it all. Each state has a Department of Social Services or some similar moniker. Counties may have similar departments.Google your state/county for helpline # – if they can’t help you they should be able to refer you to orgs that could help.
“so if I truly am “battered”. What does that change? How does it help?”
You approached “shelters” and didn’t get much help. Does this include women’s Domestic Violence/Abuse shelters? If not, how about starting there? He may never have hit you, but his other behaviors are abusive: mental abuse, knowingly infecting you with HIV. If you don’t know any local resources try National Domestic Violence Support http://www.thehotline.org
Local DV orgs could help with case management, pro bono legal, long term housing etc. Even if you can’t leave him right now, DV orgs can help you put together an exit plan.
“I have SS Disability. It’s 900 a month. I don’t qualify for other help because of his income.”
This may be the all important next step. Divorce his ass. http://www.womenslaw.org
You’re legally married, so half his assets are your assets. No physical assets like property? How about his salary? Savings? Divorce him and collect some spousal support from income. People divorcing after a marriage of at least 10 years could collect SS support based on calculation of partners SS. May be small, but better than nothing.
Divorce could open the door to other income based social services because services would be based on your income alone. Even with some post Divorce spousal support added to SSD, seems there should be options out there.
Hope this helps.
I’m scared but I’m going to try this. Ya’ll are the first people in these past 11 years to tell me I’m being abused. I didn’t think I counted because he doesn’t hit me and is a generally milktoast academic type. He doesn’t say hateful things, etc. Why didn’t anyone tell me before now, all the doctors, all the therapists, that I was being abused? I figured if it were true someone would have said so by now, especially since I’ve been asking for help to get free? I feel grateful for ya’ll setting me straight. I’m going to call the DV hotline. Thanks. I live in the midwest right now but not where I’m from, I’ve been here a year, I know nothing and no one in the area. It’s a super tiny town where I’m at right now, 1200 pop, and an hour from the nearest city. I don’t have a car of my own at all, only partial access to his sometimes. He has no money to go after. He’s a stocker at a grocery store making 18 dollars an hour. I’m the only person broker than he is. There’s nothing to go after him for, like blood from a stone.
Hey, I’m thinking of you this morning. I echo so many of the comments here in saying I admire you keeping it real with us and not taking any shit, and I’m rooting for you. I’m sorry other people have let you down over the years, and I’m so relieved you found us. Please please please stay in touch and come back often. We want to hear from you, and you shouldn’t have to go through this alone.
I second thehotline.org. Local resources can be limited due to local politics/geography/small town atmosphere. The Hotline’s run by pros and has a nationwide reach, so they’ll know about resources that your local town wouldn’t.
As for your soon to be ex not having any money… one thing I found helpful when going through hell was I focused on putting one foot in front of the other. I didn’t know how I would get out or how I would survive once I did, but the steps appeared as I took them, along with a million helping hands along the way.
It’s a leap of faith and it’s scary as shit, but I looked up a year later and I suddenly realized I had a safe place to stay and a shit job waiting tables. Not much, but it was something, and I never thought I’d have it. That was a decade ago, and I’m doing even better now.
I feel like a complete fool for believing this for a moment. I actually had a glimmer of hope that someone would help me. That national domestic violence support line, they said all they can do is refer me to local shelters. I’ve already tried that, I knew this wasn’t real. I’m trapped.
Gosh. This is so disappointing. I personally know two women who got help from DV orgs without partner physical abuse. Will say their journey started at their local Women’s DV shelter (not the local shelter housing all comers!) where they were able to access additional services and support.
Ok this is your first try. Don’t give up hope. Remember how I said phone and internet are important tools in your escape toolkit? You reached out to CL – that must have been hard. Keep on trying, keep taking those hard steps until you’re out of abuse.
This blog is not set up to provide ongoing support which IMO is what you REALLY need. There’s very little circling back to old posts, or continuous postings to support folks navigating leaving their cheater on this blog. Think the CL Communities could really be a big help to walk you through all of this – feels like a better fit than here. So, go to the Chump Lady’s main page, click on “communities” – you’ll see instructions on how to access the Reddit and Facebook communities. Sign up. So sorry your first try with a DV org was not successful. Doesn’t mean that you can’t get out of your situation. You seem like a fighter to me. So, please keep fighting.
I’m not on facebook much anymore, but is there a link to the Reddit group? I’m resigned now to saving pennies and hoping for getting away someday.
Rooting for you K! Yeah, it’s scary to put the truth out there. But you’ve got to save yourself so DO IT. The phone and internet are important tools in your escape tool kit so start using ’em – the people on the other end WANT to help. Re-read Blue Wolf’s posts above for some inspiration.
K, abuse isn’t just physical abuse with fists. There’s verbal and emotional abuse as well. Emotional and verbal abuse aims to undermine your self-esteem and independence. An emotional abuser may try to make you doubt or dislike yourself so that they can control you more easily. Does this feel familiar?
Isolation of the victim is another hallmark of abuse. Your current isolated living situation supports our characterization of him as an abuser. Abusers often isolate their victims from friends or family so they will be the victim’s only relationship (control), force a move far away from friends or family to isolate their victims further and tighten control. Infecting you with HIV forced a break with family, right? The recent move to the middle of nowhere with no ready access to transportation and minimal employment prospects also tightens his control.
So glad you weren’t put off and kept posting here. Don’t hesitate to pop into future CL posts to share updates or ask for support. We’re here for you.
PS afterthought – it may feel ass-backwards to jettison his steady paycheck via divorce. As an outsider looking it – looks like $$ (meagre as it is) and a roof over your and kitties heads are what’s keeping you stuck in place tethered to him. Evoking the Willy Wonka meme up top….divorce could be your Golden Ticket to subsidized housing, food stamps, and so on. So to speak 🙂 because yes it won’t be easy to break free, and the minimal support programs out there aren’t designed for a Golden Ticket lifestyle. But you will be FREE of his abuse with a new roof over your head and some food on the table for you and kitties. Who knows? Maybe eventually you’ll access some job training programs and build a whole new life. Don’t be afraid to dream (and PLAN) big. But the first step is to take some deep breathes and make those phone calls. Hugs to you K.
PPS If I understand correctly how things work around here, this thread will some time in the near future deactivate for new posts. Like I said earlier PLEASE don’t be shy about popping into future threads to chime in and seek support.
I’m trying to figure out how to file on my own. I think I need about 200 to do that and I’m hoping to have that saved in a few months.
Hugs to you. You are so mighty to keep surviving everyday. You are mighty to write to Chump Lady with such a true, and real talking letter. You are a breath of fresh air for me! I admire how strong and feisty you are to clap back at some of these sanctimonious misogynists who evidently failed the basic reading comprehension test here of grasping that you are in an open marriage with a goddamn GAY POLYAMORIST FUCKWIT per your husband’s actions and his words, and thus you, the survivor of abuse, can never be a cheater in such a union.
I’m really glad that Tracy immediately identified this as abuse, and Hell of a Chump rightly called his abuse of you battering.
I just really respect you for keeping it very real with people when you ask questions like “what help?” You are not wrong. There is very little help out there that doesn’t come with strings and bullshit. Systems and social nets have failed you. I won’t pretend to have any solutions to your troubles. Please hang in there and just keep surviving everyday like you have been doing.
Thanks <3
I know this is a forum on leaving a cheater, and CN views all cheating as evil. But how dare anyone fling the ’emotional affair so you’re a cheater too’ mud at the poster. It’s like saying all violence is evil so anyone punching back after being punched is just as bad?! How does that make sense? I slapped my ex when he tried to choke-hold me, but I’m not a domestic abuser and I don’t feel bad in the least. Puuh-lease with the absurd moral puritanism. IMO if this story is true she’s 100% the victim.
You are a kind person. Believe me, I wish none of this was true, but I’m not a liar.
Agreed, this community has sadly developed an arrogance problem in the last year or so, and a few people (thankfully a minority) have lost all sense of nuance or compassion and seem to get a thrill out of punching down on people they view as lesser (because they weren’t a “perfect” victim).
We all suffered at the hands of abusers. You’d hope that’d instill us all with more compassion, not less, but alas.
To add on, let us please clarify and define terms:
Cheating or adultery is the violation of a vow (explicit or implicit) of monogamy and exclusive affection. It involves broken trust, deceit &endless other destruction, so it is abuse.
A cheater, especially a serial and unrepentant cheater, has long ago abandoned and nullified the vow of monogamy. He blew open that boundary so it no longer exists. New rules have been cruelly established, often flagrantly and humiliatingly. When the victim acts by the new rules for her own interests she’s not violating or deceiving anyone. Hello, there’s no monogamy to be violated. This is not cheating. The moment you throw a punch at me you’ve abandoned any rights to non-volence or any implicit mutual agreement to not fight. It’s totally just and rational for me to to punch you right back in my own interests.
The only other potential victims are third parties who might unwittingly get involved in a mess they don’t understand and put themselves at risk. I personally don’t believe in monkey-branching for my own Christian morality against fornication. But I’m not about to pontificate and bash someone trying to act rationally for her own survival within her framework.
Thanks, I really appreciate your understanding words. I try to be a better person every day, honestly.
Thank you, exactly. For some women, a harsh truth in 2024 is there is still no ::accessible help that in any way matches the abuse survivor’s actual needs:: Period.
Some well-meaning folks in our comments are having a very hard time letting go of their own illusions about The Correct Type of Help For Her to Seek! when confronted with one of the absolute worst abuse stories I know I have personally ever read in roughly 7 years on here. It’s an ILLUSION that our own preferred methods of getting help — for example, calling an agency hotline and bootstrapping without a new romantic partner doing any of the helping — look, these solutions are simply not available to everyone. And it’s not learned helplessness or depression whatever for an exhausted survivor who has already tried that shit and has been discarded by her own family to say so. It’s the reality for many women in 2024!
Having read through every comment here 3 times, SO MANY support ideas have been offered to OP — except the idea of immediately seeking out a new man to help support her. Huh? It’s a bit weird to me how folks keep insisting she’d better not do the exact thing that many chumps here have successfully done in their own happy remarriages to lawyers, doctors, business executives. I get the counterpoint that predatory men are trash, narcissistic men intentionally seek out vulnerable prey. But real talk? There is nothing ethically wrong with this particular survival tactic, particularly after exhausting other means. There is no shame in “monkey branching” in an open marriage to avoid homelessness especially when someone has literally already tried everything.
THANK YOU
You get it. I’m sorry I tried to rely on my ex boyfriend, but I did genuinely love him, and we never even did anything, just talked. We knew ultimately it wasn’t a good idea for either of us, and he and I remain friends. I just want out, but agencies won’t help me, I’ve tried. They are mostly people like you and me answering those calls, and they are mostly just reading a script and doing a job and it’s a job that makes them “shock proof”, or at least that has been my experience at attempting to get help. Before I became disabled and sick, I worked in call centers of all kinds for many years, I worked along side those folks everyday, so I really have little illusions left. Thanks for your understanding words.
Well said.
As I am a fun fawning avoidant type, I exited this post rather hurriedly yesterday when I could see things were getting intense. However, re: the reaching out to a high school friend, I think what is triggering for anyone who has been in a relationship with a narcissist (probably a lot of us) is the moral equivalence argument (an essential tool in the narc toolbox)- CL covers this pretty well in her replies that they are not equivalent. It then leads in to this myth of mutuality, and then victim blaming. I think we all have our scars from this type of abuse, and I am sorry for all of us trying to heal.
and also i think the poster using the term “emotional affair” was pretty consistent with how actual victims behave, in that they walk into police stations trying to provide an honest account, taking responsibility for what they did (albeit often not very much at all, or reactive abuse) etc, but still seeking protection, and then get charged with offences whilst the abuser continues on their jolly way (I am not suggesting anyone on this page is doing that by the way, it is just the poster regrets having used the phrase, which reminds me very much of DV clients who have regretted seeking help from police)
thank you so much. It means a lot that someone understands.
and also, reckless, deliberate or negligent transmission of HIV (if proven) is an offence in most places – who else is he having unprotected sex with, they might be pretty enraged about it also – it might be enough to get a protective order to get him out of the house, so maybe speak to DV services about supporting you to go to police – that might not solve the housing issue if he is paying the rent, but you might be able to negotiate something if he thinks the long arm of the law might become involved
Look, I get it – he fucked up bad. He’s selfish and addicted to p*rn and s$x. But I have no malice against him. I just want out. I don’t want to go after him. Life is beating him down, and it’s all just sad. I just want to be one of those childless cat ladies who drink tea and make cookies for visitors.
IT’s not to go after him as such (by making a complaint to police with view to charges, which let’s face it they probably wouldn’t bother with), just brainstorming ways to get sole occupation of the home temporarily or otherwise (with a letter from a lawyer or protective order). However I understand reading your comments thats probably not an option anyway if you need both incomes.
How do you leave a cheater when you can’t, I guess that is the question