UBT: How to Break Free from Monogamy

break free from monogamy

The UBT takes on the cake-eating notion of how to break free from monogamy and still enjoy all the perks of a committed marriage.

***

The Universal Bullshit Translator is weary. So many stupid articles, so little time… The gears crank for the Washington Post’s “How to break free from monogamy without destroying marriage.”

(Sigh)

Isn’t this what every cake-eating cheater tells themselves?

I’ll keep all the niceties of marriage — the combined 401K, the way you buy my mother-in-law gifts, your Sunday pot roast, your child-rearing, the appearance of normalcy — and chuck the sexual commitment stuff! I can fuck around and Our Marriage Will Be Better for It!

Why didn’t anyone ever think of this before?! Yes, Caitlin Dewey, non-monogamous marriage is such a new, ground-breaking, revolutionary concept. No one has ever challenged the hegemony of monogamous marriage before! Caitlin, I guess you were born before the 1970s and the whole swinger thing, huh?

My parents had some friends who did the whole wife-swapping scene in the early 1970s.

Here’s how it worked out.

One of the “new” couples decided they liked that arrangement better, and left their spouses. The rejected chump wife went a bit mad and bought a gun to confront the lovers. Fortunately no one was killed or arrested. She got to raise 6 kids on her own (until her eventual happy remarriage later to a nice architect she’s still married to). I was in kindergarten at the time of the open marriage debacle and was buddies with two little boys from each of the destroyed families.

I came home one day and told my mom I was going to marry Brendan and then divorce him.

Then I asked my mother what a divorce was.

Oh, but those were more innocent times! You want an open marriage today?

Now there’s an app for that!

The Washington Post article is reviewing “Open Minded” a new app for couples who want to break free from monogamy and swing. Jessie is one of its brave, new users.

Her first marriage, in her early 20s, had ended after an affair. (Hers.) Her second marriage, started shortly thereafter, was “happy — very happy,” but as her boys grew up and moved out and moved on, she was left faintly bored.

She thought about cheating on her husband of 20 years. She considered bars, parties, a review of the lapses in her mid-20s.

Instead, she sat her husband down and told him something that more and more progressive couples are beginning to realize. They loved each other and wanted to stay together — but in the age of Tinder and Ashley Madison and OkCupid, they also both wanted to have other options. Options they knew were just a click away.

Don’t you too want to be progressive and open minded?

Still fucking the same ol’ same ol’? I think you can do better! And better is only a click away!

“Interesting, introspective, happily married D.C. professional,” reads Jessie’s profile on the new non-monogamous dating site Open Minded. “I’m into building deep and loving relationships that add to the joy and aliveness of being human.”

Because you can’t possibly feel “alive” and be monogamous. Those two things are completely incompatible along with monogamy and progressiveness, and monogamy and open-mindedness. Monogamy is oppressive! Deep, loving relationships are only a click away!

I’d like you to be home on Sunday to have brunch with my parents. Click! 

The baby’s barfing. Click!

I’m on a really tight deadline, could you please do the carpooling this week? Click!

Someone has to attend the 8th grade choral concert. Click!

I’ve got cancer. Click!

I’m sure all you hip, modern professionals are managing the home/work life balance just fine.

Why not add dating to the mix!

Instead, says Brandon Wade, the site’s pragmatic, MIT-educated founder, Open Minded is a new kind of dating site for a newly mainstream lifestyle: one in which couples form very real attachments, just not exclusively with each other. He expects swingers, polysexuals and experimental 20-somethings to use his site. But he guesses that most of his 70,000 users are people like Jessie: Those in committed, conventional relationships, who realize that, statistically speaking, few modern couples stay with a single person their whole lives.

“If you look at marriage, it developed as a survival strategy and a means of raising kids,” Wade said. “But relationships are no longer a necessary component of life. People have careers and other interests — they can survive without them.”

Whoa, hang on there Wade. You’re selling the whole “very real attachment” thing in the first paragraph and then tell us relationships are unnecessary in the second paragraph. I mean, I know you’re an illustrious MIT grad, and I can’t begin to fathom the serious brain power that must go into a site like this, but I’m confused. I’m supposed to shop for new meaningful mates and then discard them?

That sure seems like a winning business strategy for a guy with a dating app.

Jessie doesn’t like that word. Adultery. It conjures images of lipstick stains and burner phones. Or worse, stonings and scarlet A’s. It also reminds her of her first marriage, which ended after an affair. She hated the lying, the sneaking around. This time, she wanted to be more honest.

In 2010, Jessie approached her husband with an idea she called “ethical non-monogamy.” They would stay together as each other’s primary, lifelong partners, but they wouldn’t rule out other relationships — as long as they happened openly. Jessie has shown her husband her profile on several dating sites, including Open Minded. When she returns from her weekly date with one of her four extramarital partners, she tells him as much, or as little, as he likes.

Publicly, no one knows about this arrangement. (It’s why we have agreed to just use her first name in this story.) Jessie doesn’t plan to tell her children, though she could see it coming up one day. She and her husband still have sex, still go to social functions, still celebrate anniversaries.

Well, Jessie, I commend you for proposing the idea openly. That is certainly better than cheating, as I’ve said here many times. I’m just wondering if you’ve thought this whole thing through.

Did it ever occur to you that you might not have a marriage to come home to? I guess the thinking is your marriage will be stronger if you give yourself free rein to sample other wares, but did you ever consider that your husband might enjoy younger ass? What if you’re having a bad day? Or what if you get sick? What if you’re in crisis? His four extramarital partners are probably a hell of lot more fun that you are with that crisis. Click!  I mean, who wouldn’t want to escape the bummer that is domestic life sometimes, huh?

Did you think your husband might not be turned on by viewing your dating profiles? Sure, he might pick me dance pretty for awhile, or create his own profiles. Yes, some men enjoy a cuckold kink. And other men get shotguns. I guess after 20 years of marriage, you just don’t know which one you have until you ask.

Good luck with that.

Click!

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Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago

I read that article, Glaring omission, the husband was not interviewed…

Suzi
Suzi
8 years ago

Where’s the part of the story where they talk to Mr. Jessie?

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

CL, if I had a dollar for every single “unnatural” thing we do these days, I wouldn’t have to worry about TRYING to make a living as a writer!

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

Using a toilet is technically “unnatural” but you don’t see any “experts” arguing to break free from THAT…lol

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

…or using a knife and fork or a spoon…or using a computer…or watching t.v…..or putting both legs into a pair of jeans….

…and the list goes on…

Kelli
Kelli
8 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

Gypsy, if I had a dollar for every “unnatural” thing I do, I’d pretty much still be broke….

Other Kat
Other Kat
8 years ago

My experience is limited, but both couples I know who tried “ethical non-monogamy” ended up going down that path because one spouse was a narcissist. In each case the healthy partner went along hoping to pre-empt cheating and have some control over the experience, which did not end well. In the first case the husband resented the fact that his wife had more profile views and dates than he did and took off with the first Schmoopie who would have him, and now he’s moving in with her and trying to screw his wife over in a divorce. In the second case the husband gave it a try and then decided to have an honest conversation with his wife about how he realized he couldn’t cope with the idea of her sleeping with other men. So she took it on the down-low and went on to sleep with dozens of partners without her husband’s knowledge or consent, right under his nose while they were raising two small boys. Click indeed.

Interestingly enough, I’m friends with the wife in both couples and only recently (thanks in no small part to what I’ve been learning here) realized that my friend in the second example is a raging narcissist. Over the years I’d encouraged her to come clean with her husband, thinking that I was dealing with an empathetic and rational person, but she ended up getting a high-powered job on the other side of the country and dropped me and her less glamorous and “successful” friends like a hot potato.

Anne
Anne
8 years ago
Reply to  Other Kat

I grew up in the 70s in a family where my parents met and both had open relationships with another couple. After 18 months, the other man decided he wanted to leave his wife and be with my Mother exclusively. My Dad decided he wanted to stay with my Mother but not be with the other woman. My Mother then had two relationships for 12 years before she ended things with the other man and was exclusively with my Dad until she died young a few years later.

While it was as open and honest as you can get, what’s interesting looking back is that the other woman was completely devastated and never forgave my mother. The other man, while purporting to ‘share’ my Mum in true 70s fashion, confessed later (in the 80s honesty years) that he was always waiting and hoping Mum would leave my Dad. Both the other man and woman remarried happily. But the lasting impacts were felt on the children of the other marriage. We always felt loved by both parents and our family unit, however unusual, was in tact – Mum loved Dad and we knew it. The kids of the other marriage felt less important to their Dad then my Mum was … and it has taken years of therapy for them as adults to reach a reasonable relationship with their Dad.

No CL you’re right. None of this stuff is new. And for those of us who were kids of liberal 70s parents, the reality is only too apparent. There is a reason social mores developed over centuries … they work best on balance and protect innocent partners and children …

Let go
Let go
8 years ago

Somehow, this reminds me of a book I read recently. It is “Sisters Antipodes”. It is a memoir by Jane Allison. It begins when she was four years old, her sister seven, and living in Australia where their father was stationed. He was in the diplomatic corps and was in his home country but this family traveled because of his job. While there an American couple with almost the exact same family structure moved to Canberra and the two couples began an intense friendship. One husband and one wife decided they preferred each other so the two couples swapped, married and moved on. This memoir has gotten wonderful reviews and negative reviews. I think this book was written exactly as it was meant to be. After all, the beginning of her memories is when she was four and lost her father. She did not see him for seven years. How selfish is that?. Her counterpart, nearly the same age, never managed to overcome the pain of losing her father (and her family) and died of an overdose in her thirties. Ms Alison nearly went the same route. She is extremely bright and even though she was drinking heavily and very promiscuous she managed to graduate from Princeton, marry and make a very good name for herself as a novelist. What comes across throughout this book is the collateral damage four extremely self-centered adults managed to inflict on their children. She leaves out the reason why she was not invited to her stepsister’s funeral but it was a slap in the face for a woman who had tried very hard to love her stepfather and she certainly mourned the loss of her father. I cannot imagine people who have the ability to turn their backs on their own progeny…..it must be some fault in their make up. The formative years for this child were spent on the other side of the world from her father and she did not know why. She was too young to put it all together and the pain comes through this book even though this woman is in her 40s. The kind of parents that can do this to their children are the equivalent of bombs going off inside the family and the collateral damage his lifelong

namedforvera
namedforvera
8 years ago
Reply to  Let go

Yes. Crapweasel (my ex) grew up in an expat community in SE Asia. After the cheating bomb exploded in my family, and old friend of his had a long convo, via email. She said that cheating is endemic in diplomatic, NGO and other typical expat circles. People get posted for a couple years–often (typically), households are suddenly run by many servants (ex’s family had: houseboy, cook, several gardeners, nursemaid, nightwatchmen, driver, laundry person, etc etc…). So nobody in the parental unit has to deal with the barf-y realities of child rearing. It’s Embassy parties all week long.

Goes to the head, and if the values or character are already weak (as in Crapweasel’s family), whammo!

The old friend said here mother’s eyes went dead after a while from her father’s adulteries… so sad. She could never really trust anyone. One sister became a mistress, because she decided they were the women who were valued, and it was safer to just cut to the chase. (Friend was one of 4 sisters, each born in a different African country, then they were posted to the same SE Asian country as Crapweasel, so he & she were childhood friends)

Finally, of course, in my case the irony is that Crapweasels parents ( Rev. Dr. & Mrs. Crapweasel) were posted by the Presbyterian Church, USA: he was a minister and professor of New Testament theology–and the biggest cheater around; she founded the first Montessori type preschool in SE Asia, and had the most horrific life of psychological torture…which she passed on liberally to her kids….

I don’t want to say that all folks in expat communities behave like this. Just that the setup is there. It’s like dropping into the Ashley Madison Thunderdome.

(I warned my kid, you bet.)

expatChump
expatChump
8 years ago
Reply to  namedforvera

I’m the first in my little expat circle going through this, but I have no doubt there are so many more who have yet to come out about it. I sang like a canary and, call me a cynic, but I believe that caused lots of cheaters in our little world to go even further underground with their double life.

Ex’s skank, a former colleague who lives in our home country, saw the lifestyle – MY LIFE – and went after it whole hog, in exchange for copious amounts of sex and BJs, no doubt.

Sausalito
Sausalito
8 years ago
Reply to  namedforvera

Ashley Madison Thunderdome, now there’s a place to avoid!!!

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago

I am trying…. Trying to bend my mind around the idea…. My mind has trouble with the mental gymnastics it takes ro be that flexible. I understand marriage is a man made idea… One that has endured for oh…. A millennium or so. are we not evovling? I tried soy… Belly button ring…. Quinoa… Electric car…. Am i not keeping up with the times? And will I be shamed by those progressives that so freely enjoy the new age marriage arrangement? Hmmmm. Call me selfish…. But there are some things I dont like to share…. My am coffee… Bathroom time … And my husband. I guess i will continue on my narrow minded way today.

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago
Reply to  TheClip

Forgive the the typos…fat fingers … Tiny phone… Not evolving. Coffee time.

LadyStrange
LadyStrange
8 years ago

This stuff just makes me sad :-(.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago

No problem with it as long as each spouse consents. As you point out, CL, she is not lying about her desire for strange, at least.
But, notice the word salad in her profile. Why not just tell the truth about wanting a new bone? Why all the breathless crap about forming new , meaningful relationships etc?

Let go
Let go
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Arnold, can they keep it from their children? What happens if one falls for another? There are people who should not marry. Period.

MsMatched
MsMatched
8 years ago
Reply to  Let go

Agree with Let Go. If people want to live the orgy lifestyle, they should refrain from marriage and use lots of birth control.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Let go

I am sure that it could cause problems. But, As CL continually points out, if it is disclosed ahead of time to the spouse and consent is given ahead of time, it is not cheating. is it healthy? I do not know. I could not do it. But, at least she is letting her husband make an informed decision about whether he wants to continue with her.

Donna
Donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Arnold, as far as I’m concerned a spouse who suggests this type of relationship is an entitled asswhore. At what point are we going stop accepting their crappy behavior as being honest. If I desired to fuck men when I was married I would take a hard look at my relationship and make responsible loving decisions based on my history with my spouse given the fact we shared a life together which included children. I would take the necessary steps to make it work. If it was not repairable I would have an HONEST discussion about divorce. This is what honest people with integrity do. They don’t express their desires to bring sexual partners into the relationship. Cheaters suck. I am so tired of their lame fucked up logic. Why should we EVER compromise our values for the disordered. This is just another plan B. No no no!!!!

UnsinkableMollyX
UnsinkableMollyX
8 years ago
Reply to  Donna

Exactly!!! To this day, he swears he has not been with anyone else, but for the last two years or so he has made repeated comments regarding me getting a third person…all the while, I never once asked him if he was wanting a third party or a “hall pass”!!! Truth is/was, I couldn’t bear the reality of him saying, “Hell yes!!!”…Since Day One with him, I have said that cheating was the unforgivable/deal-breaker in our marriage…instead he has been “playing house” with me until he was financially able to bail out. Such a bastard!!!

I told him a while back that I had the feeling that he was pushing for me to choose a third party so that he could charge me with adultery in a divorce- he got real pissed at that, swore that wasn’t what he was trying to do, but thank God I never gave in to his demand.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Donna

Well, at least one can leave sooner. Years were stolen from me.

Donna
Donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

The first step is to work on the relationship. Secondly, decide if you want a divorce.
Those are the choices. Arnold, I was disregarded like trash. And asking a spouse to support infidelity with multiple partners while staying married
is utterly degrading and humiliating. That’s like applying spackle to the shit sandwich as a condiment. We really do deserve much better than that.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Donna

Yeah, i agree approaching a spouse about changing the contract is wrong. I was just thinking that at least had my XWs disclosed their intentions and desires, i would have gotten out when I was a lot younger.

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Exactly, Arnold!

“Jessie doesn’t like that word. Adultery. …She hated the lying, the sneaking around. This time, she wanted to be more honest.

*Cough, cough*

“Honest” Adultery???? “Honest” cheating? Oh wait…It isn’t “cheating” if you know about it before hand.

Right?

I guess it really isn’t STEALING if tell the bank ahead of time that I’m going to steal…

Off now to make an “ethical withdrawl” from Wells Fargo…

newchumpatl
newchumpatl
8 years ago

Oh for the love of God and Jesus.

I have now seen it all.

The entitlement, the “me me me” mentality of our society is really breathtaking. Everyone has to be “happy” all the time… we are “owed” happiness. We all “deserve” happiness 24/7 and when a poor sausage doesn’t get it from the routine boring life of marriage.. don’t they deserve to get it elsewhere? Since when did having “Fun” and being “Excited” all the time become prerequisites for life? Life isn’t all fun and games.. life requires coping skills.. it requires balancing things like kids, illnesses, jobs, caring for aging parents, etc etc.. you know, GROWN UP stuff. There is a reason acting like your 20s in your 40s doesn’t work.. because you have RESPONSIBILITIES. Because you aren’t fucking 20. Welcome to Life!!

I imagine what my grandparents would think of this article. I don’t think any of them had an expectation of constant “happiness”. This entitlement to constant bliss is a new thing. Our grandparents grew up during the depression, do you think their parents had time to consider swinging with new fuckbuddies, or were they concerned about eating a meal today? Happiness sure is relative.

Stupid me, my whole marriage I always thought having a partner that you loved, trusted, relied on and built a life with was worth SO MUCH MORE than a cheap thrill. I thought our children, our home, our future was as good as it gets. Sure, it’s not a constant thrill ride but it’s also beautiful.. what’s better on a Friday night than cuddling with two kids? What could be happier? Even with all the work and tediousness? How wrong I was. STBX believes he is “entitled” to “excitement”, “fun”, “passion”…. all in the form of a MOW who has no children, no encumbrances.. isn’t doing carpools, grocery shopping, working a job, wiping noses and asses and dealing with the stomach flu.. so she has ample time to provide him with endless kibbles. And THAT is worth MORE to him that our family.

I hope he can explain this to his kids one day. I am glad it’s not me.

SeeTheLight
SeeTheLight
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

Excellent post, Newchumpatl! Do we have a hope of stopping this entitlement mentality when it is cultivated on social media, normalized by the celebrated and the notorious, utilized by the political elites to manipulate and control the masses, and fundamentalized by religions to instill righteous extremism in their followers? From a political perspective, I turn my back on progressives or evangelicals as they are different sides of the same coin. One seeks to institutionalize cradle to grave irresponsibility=entitlement and the other has made a franchise of judge-not, get out of jail free pass sinning. Sociopaths and the weak-willed thrive in both environments.

Chris W.
Chris W.
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

Great line, newchumpatl: “Entitlement to constant bliss”. It’s so true, and doesn’t sound like we’re too far away from the Aldous Huxley novel, Brave New World, where everyone walks around hopped up constantly on the drug, Soma.

Chumpguy
Chumpguy
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

Great response, newchumpatl!

Do these people ever think about what will happen when they get a little older, and things just don’t work quite as well as they did when they were 25, or whatever? I believe mature people grow closer the longer they stay married. Both partners pick each other up when needed, and over time it balances out. The sun doesn’t shine on the same dog’s rear every day. I remember CL once said she would throw the ball to her husband and each time he would catch it and throw it back (I’m paraphrasing). That is the kind of love, support and mutual trust that we hope for in a marriage.

There comes a time in any marriage when each partner is going to need the other’s unqualified support and love. In all the fun and excitement and sparkles of her new spontaneous freedom, I hope Jessie doesn’t have a stroke and need her husband to take care of her for the rest of her life. And if I were her husband, I would sure be praying that I didn’t get sick and need much more assistance than a ride to the doctor. After all, taking care of a spouse who needs some help can really get faintly boring quick.

Ugh. What a world we live in.

UnsinkableMollyX
UnsinkableMollyX
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpguy

I hear ya, ChumpGuy!!! What a world indeed. All these years, every sickness, every injury, every bad time he was going through I was there. When I got sick? I was a burden and him having to take care of every thing around the house was a chore!

UnsinkableMollyX
UnsinkableMollyX
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpguy

Same here…I had been feeling like something was wrong for months, was a real bummer to be around for my STBXH, especially in the bedroom…come to find out I had Stage 4 Endometriosis plus a bad hernia- required two major surgeries in one day…day off the surgery, H. asked a friend of mine, “Which hospital is she in?” UGH!!!! …he woke me up in recovery bitching about how my friends need to stop telling me what to do with my money (I had been advised to get my money out of our joint account that he was steadily draining)…apparently while I was in surgery, he got my phone from my son and spent 45 minutes or so going through it…

I had to get a friend come get me and take me home. His comment when she left? “You could have asked me to come get you!”

UGH…I have no words…

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumpguy

Had three major surgeries during my Xw’s affair. Got rides to and from the hospital from friends. She never even inquired how i was. We were living in the same house and she was obliviius.

Chumpguy
Chumpguy
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Unreal! I was fortunate enough not to have major surgery, but I did have a few outpatient procedures and I was sure glad my son was around. These people are in tunnels with blinders on, and like you say, oblivious to anything but what makes them feel good at the moment.

Magnet 4 Deranged
Magnet 4 Deranged
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

“The entitlement, the “me me me” mentality of our society is really breathtaking. Everyone has to be “happy” all the time… we are “owed” happiness. We all “deserve” happiness 24/7 and when a poor sausage doesn’t get it from the routine boring life of marriage.. don’t they deserve to get it elsewhere?”

That’s EXACTLY the problem. The rampant narcissism that seems to be everywhere now.

If I’m recalling correctly, there was even discussion of removing Narcissism from the DSM 5 *BECAUSE* it is so widespread they weren’t sure if could continue to be classified as a disorder!

I think what’s going to eventually happen here is that yes, there will be plenty of folks jumping on this “ethical non-monogamy” bandwagon (because let’s face it, instant gratification sure SOUNDS like an ideal, no?), only to find that they are STILL “unhappy”.

Because one just CAN’T sustain the level of happy they think they are entitled to.
If you WERE able to achieve it, it would probably kill you.
(Just google some of the chimp experiments where they were allowed to trigger the “happy” center of the brain.They “happied” themselves nearly to death. LOL)

The better goal is for people to realize that “content” is the ideal to chase, and that true “happiness” is SUPPOSED to be the rare treat.

IMHO the ones who manage THAT are the true “adults”.

The others are still children chasing the shiny new toy in the sandbox because they think that’s the prize.

ChumpB
ChumpB
8 years ago

Newchumpatl, you said it perfectly. I feel like you speak from my own soul. Thank you.!

Hesatthecurb
Hesatthecurb
8 years ago

Hey, Magnet–love your handle! 🙂

Magnet 4 Deranged
Magnet 4 Deranged
8 years ago
Reply to  Hesatthecurb

Thanks Hesatthecurb.

After a few assorted asshats I could only come to the conclusion that that name was apt for me.
In my pitiful defense, at least they WERE all different flavors of asshat…

BTW…It’s actually “Magnet for the mildly deranged” but CL’s website limits the number of characters you can use for your name. 😀 )

Lina
Lina
8 years ago

Just don’t f*****g get married and have all the strange you want.

GetAClue
GetAClue
8 years ago
Reply to  Lina

Yes. That makes sense to a logical person. But cheaters want the appearance of respectability by getting married to a life partner. It actually attracts a certain kind of affair partner who enjoys destroying a marriage because then the AP can consider him or herself better than the betrayed spouse. It’s almost as if cheaters who get married camouflage themselves to attract people as messed up as themselves because if they were unmarried the cheaters wouldn’t be attracted to each other. Cheater logic is confusing, but I think that’s just what some of them do.

not Juliet
not Juliet
8 years ago
Reply to  GetAClue

That is like the Jerry Seinfeld episode where George pretends to be married so more women will date him.

conniered
conniered
8 years ago
Reply to  not Juliet

I never did like that show. I found all of them annoying as sh#!.

UnsinkableMollyX
UnsinkableMollyX
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

Add me to that list- never thought it was funny— can’t stand Jerry Seinfeld!!!!

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

Count me in the Seinfeld Sucks club too. I found the whole show insufferable.

KenderJ
KenderJ
8 years ago
Reply to  conniered

I’m so glad I wasn’t the only one.

Not Juliet
Not Juliet
8 years ago
Reply to  KenderJ

Right, the characters on Seinfeld were irritating, lol. That is really the premise of the whole show. They are all kind of sociopaths and that leads them to their problems. The series finale actually had them on trial for their crappy character and choices. But they did contribute some fun stuff to popular culture because a lot of the experiences were things you could relate to.

ByeByeCheater
ByeByeCheater
8 years ago
Reply to  Lina

yes – but make sure the strange you get is unmarried too!

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  ByeByeCheater

And, make sure it is not too strange, like with strange strangers in a strange land. Grok.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Actually that would be perfect, grok?

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Use protection.

ChumpB
ChumpB
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Thank you for cracking me up!

Lina
Lina
8 years ago
Reply to  ByeByeCheater

Exactly!

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  Lina

Amen Lina!

LadyStrange
LadyStrange
8 years ago
Reply to  Lina

Exactly!

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
8 years ago

I’ve got a friend who recently has been including a third person in her relationship with her husband. She told me they talked about it for years and finally decided to do it with some ground rules, one of which is she gets to pick who they “invite”.

She assures me that their marriage is stronger than ever before. But I can’t help but wonder what will happen now that she’s opened that door and has basically given her approval. I know I couldn’t do it. I too, must not be evolved enough.

At least they didn’t start cheating on each other . . . yet.

Lola Granola
Lola Granola
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

I am now realising that ‘Our Marriage is Stronger than Ever Before’ can be run through the UBT and pops out the other end as ‘My discarded partner is doing the Pick Me Dance, better than ever! I’m LOVIN’ it! Cake and more cake!’

saralou1972
saralou1972
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

My narc spent five years talking (if you can call it that) into swinging , I said it wasn’t for me but every time I didn’t want to he would sulk and go off sex but if I said I might be interested he was all over me, so him being 40 last year I said ok, I felt and he told me we were solid as a rock nothing and now one could break us up, so we went for it, he want me with another man and he said he didn’t want anothe lady involved straight away , I agreed as couldn’t imagine him having sex with another lady, but did say we might move onto the couple thing it time, this wasn’t really me or my thing but I thought it would keep us strong and like I said felt forced into it , well boom found out in August he had been cheating with a young lass (same age as my son) all the fucking time, I asked why, why let us go down this route if you were cheating any way, he still can’t answer that question , but I will NEVER ever do the swinging thing again.

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
8 years ago
Reply to  saralou1972

“I asked why, why let us go down this route if you were cheating any way, he still can’t answer that question”

*Raises hand* Can I take a stab at the ‘why?’, Saralou?

He probably wanted this to alleviate his own GUILT. Figured that if YOU were with another man, then his cheating would be ‘o.k.’ in his own mind.

Just sayin’.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

Or he could create a false equivalency if you caught him–“I said it was OK for you to see someone else…so I figured an affair was OK….”

saralou1972
saralou1972
8 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

Yes I agree with you, I know now it was to ease his guilt

LadyStrange
LadyStrange
8 years ago
Reply to  saralou1972

Yep! My stbx has stated that his sexting an picking up women online is ‘justified’ because I had an ‘affair” (I really didn’t) 15 years ago. What was worse was when my son found his ‘sexting’ phone, asshole turned around and told my son about my ficticious affair – to again…. ease his own guilt. Dick.

Cerise
Cerise
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

I was friends with a couple who happily invited a “third” into their “rock solid” 20-year marriage. The hubby said his marriage to wife was “non-negotiable”, and any new partner was only secondary. Spin ahead two years and hubby has rented a love shack apartment in the city to be closer to schmoopie–using marital funds but not telling wifey. Then he starts spending too much time with schmoopie and wifey asks him to reel it in. He resents wifey’s interference and starts demonizing her. Finally wifey starts MC, and hubby reluctantly goes but doesn’t reduce his schmoopie time. Wifey files for divorce and takes 60/40 split, plus spousal maintenance. Hubby whiningly confides to me towards the end, “If she (wifey) had just waited, I’d have come back to her eventually.” Non-negotiable, my ass. I don’t see or speak to any of these idiots any more.

kim
kim
8 years ago
Reply to  Cerise

Cerice, , sure he’d have gone back to her eventually…when he was too old to get it up, and needed her to roll him around in a wheelchair. pfffffftttt.

Cerise
Cerise
8 years ago
Reply to  kim

Kim, In the grand irony of it all, it turned out 50 year-old hubby left 40 year-old wifey for mid-50’s schmoopie who turned out to be cheating on a late-60’s longtime boyfriend/partner. So you can bet that hubby will be SOL if he thinks schmoopie will stick by him when it’s limp willie and wheelchair time!

No Regrets
No Regrets
8 years ago
Reply to  kim

^ yup. so true. Marriage is the fall back- they want someone around, like a pacifier. I don’t judge people who want open relationships if they play by the rules (and there’s always rules, so how free are you really) but I truly believe the open, happy ones are rare.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
8 years ago
Reply to  Cerise

Yep. The whole thing kind of grossed me out. They’ve been married a long time so you know – kids, jobs, routine, etc.: That’s life, I get it. But what’s the point in being married to ONE person if you both want to fuck other people? IMO, if you want another partner, end the marriage. It’s simple. To actually sit and have the conversation that it’s OK for hubby is going to plow another in our marital bed . . . eeesh.

As an aside, just thinking about my current boyfriend with someone else makes me rage. That was one of the ways I knew I was to “Meh” with the X . . . the thought of him with someone else doesn’t even register a pulse with me anymore.

UnsinkableMollyX
UnsinkableMollyX
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

RumbleKitty: I can’t wait to get there!!! Right now, I get so angry…and sad!!! Fucking asshole!!!

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

I know RK! When I (rarely) think of the X sexing up another woman, all I can think is – She’ll find out!
Meh is the place!

ChumpB
ChumpB
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Rumblekitty I can’t wait to get there!

Kara
Kara
8 years ago

I guess I must be a rarity that actually knows about 4 couples in open relationships that haven’t ended badly and are actually functioning quite well.

I can tell you right now, NONE of them would use this app.

They don’t use regular dating sites/apps as it is. Why? Because that’s just asking, nay, BEGGING for disaster.

NO ONE in an actual communicative, functional open relationship will be using this app. No one. I can say that with a very hefty amount of certainty.

Why? Because regular dating sites are full of cheating fuckheads enough as it is. Set up one where the premise is that you’re already in a relationship and you’ve got yourself Ashely Madison: The sequel. This will be full of asshole narcissists who think they’ve found their golden ticket to a seemingly endless supply of new sex with no consequences. Some of them already treat regular dating sites like that anyway, what makes this MIT grad think her site is going to be any different? There is literally NOTHING that makes her site special, prevents cheaters from flooding it (which they will) or vets people to make sure their relationships are communicative and consensual.

This is why none of the open couples I know won’t go near dating apps/sites with a 55 foot pole. The risk of someone NOT being completely honest and is too great because no one on the app has a reason to be so.

And the thing that pisses me off the most about bullshit like this isn’t the idea of open marriage or relationships, it’s the fact that this woman (and people like her) have no fucking idea what they’re talking about. You can’t just slap words like “progressive” and “non-monogamy” and “freedom” in your article and think that you’ve got any sense of what you’re doing. People in actual open marriages that aren’t the result of someone trying to circumvent/spackle over infidelity would either slap her, laugh at her or both. And it’s obvious she’s never been in a healthy open relationship so she has no business creating sites or speaking in news articles about them.

Open relationships should NEVER be attempts to fix infidelity, avoid it, or to participate in it. End of story. If you can’t handle honesty, communication and respect of boundaries with ONE partner, then you sure as hell have no business taking on others.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

No problem with it. 4 couples, really? That common, eh? I never knew.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

I sometimes wonder if there are more that I know or have known, who just didn’t feel the need to inform me.

I mean, it isn’t really my business anyway.

Shechump
Shechump
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

I’m sorry, but this part of the thread is completely blowing me away. I think I’ve lived under a rock. Yes, I did explore things on the internet when it came alive but I had NO idea people actually partook of this stuff. I can’t even imagine a 3-some, let alone 4 couples? It just seems stinky and messy all the way around. Saliva and juices going every which way. I mean, I don’t even know how to imagine this. And, I am NOT young! AND, I’ve never been a prude.

But, what do these people NEED in their lives? I have a hard time all 8 of those people felt comfortable watching their spouses get a blowjob. I really need help here. Do I need to get out from under the rock or can I just stay here and forget people like this are out there getting a kick out out it, and God knows what else.

If there are children involved in any of these relationships, I truly feel bad for them the most.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Yeah. 4. None of them actually know each other lol.

One of them is a couple from Germany that’s been together for 25 years.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

I bet those Germans do it on a well timed schedule. The trains ran on time there, during Hitler’s reign, eh?

namedforvera
namedforvera
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Actually, tat was all about Italy…the trains running on time…because prior to the Fascist dictatorship (and everyone’s cheating! best friend Il Duce), they didn’t.

Please return to your regularly scheduled programming. 😉

Buddy
Buddy
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

I suppose I am still skeptical based on what little insight I have into friends who are doing this. In their case, I am pretty sure that she is the one who feels entitled to explore “true love.” She really doesn’t think her husband offers the true love she deserves. She did have an affair in the past, but they stayed together for the kids, because in their case, parenting in the same house was preferable to dual homes due to some special needs for the kids.

In the end, I think he is the total chump. He makes all the money and still does about 60% of the parenting, while she searches for her true love and is an active community volunteer. He now does have a friend he hangs out with, but I don’t think it is sexual.

I think the open marriage was her idea so that she could be financially supported, have parenting flexibility, and still search for the true love she feels entitled to. He agreed to the arrangement, probably out of guilt for the kids.

I suspect this is the case in many of these arrangements, where really one person is the primary instigator and beneficiary and the chump just goes along with it.

Carmella1722
Carmella1722
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

So is that an “open marriage’ or just open affairs? It seems to me that poly anything is just dating and being roommates with benefits. Skip the ceremony, skip the ring, and for God’s sake don’t have kids.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Carmella1722

I’m going to go find Thor’s hammer and just bang my head into it now…seems like I’d make just as much progress doing that as I am attempting to explain the difference between cheating and polyamory here.

Moving on
Moving on
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Can you please explain polyamory a little better? Because I do not understand what it’s about. If it’s not about sex what is it for? Is it friends with benefits? What? I’m not being combative. I just don’t understand how a person could want to be in a marriage, which by law, promise, and custom is exclusive, and yet prefer an open marriage, which by definition is not. What is the appeal and what is the benefit to both members of the couple of an open marriage?

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Nope… Think we all get it.

Carmella1722
Carmella1722
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Please look at the time of replies. Sometimes someone responds to a post and it gets pushed way down when others reply to earlier comments, making it look like you acyually responded to a later post. No need for Thor’s hammer.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

That’s the problem though. Literally every situation of an open marriage going up in flames I have ever heard of began for the wrong reasons. If you go into it for the wrong reasons, then it will end badly. Go into it because you’ve either already cheated or have the inclination to cheat, then you’re already doomed.

Donna
Donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Kara, there’s just a hint of justification getting in the way. Going up in flames? Wrong reasons? Doomed from the start is more like it. So what are the right reasons to fuck others while married. Oh yeah, it’s complicated. Kara, I’m just not feeling it. What I wanted in a relationship was to be respected, appreciated, loved, and cherished. X signed up for all the free stuff. At the end of the day Kara all the games are exhausting. That beautiful wedding cake frosted with mindfuckery cheater logic is no longer on my diet.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Still . . . “healthy open relationship”. That’s like an oxymoron to me.

If my husband is cool with me fucking other people, he probably shouldn’t be my husband. What’s the point of being married? The tax breaks?

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

The point of getting married is because they wanted to. Despite what the members of this blog seem to think, people in open marriages do marry for love. It’s not all about sex.

Donna
Donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Kara, relationships can be defined any way two adult agree upon. However, as chumps we believed in our wedding vows. Typically, fucking strangers never comes up in a relationship until the cheater singlehandedly makes the decision to cheat. This comes with deception, heartbreak, and discard of entire families. I lived in an open marriage with a serial cheating narcissist for years. He led a double life. Toxic entitled partners who suggest open relationships enjoy the pain they inflict. They get off on it. It is indeed simple. Some prefer intamacy. Others prefer sex and are unable to achieve true intamacy, it’s all about SEX. Marriage never included multiple sex partners for chumps. Have any lifestyle you choose, swing, love all the free sex, and chase the thrill of fucking really really cool free fucking open partners. I’m just not that hip and prefer simple respect. I achieved that goal and divorced that life.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Donna

*sigh* …*pinches bridge of nose*

I’m going to say it …AGAIN.

There is a difference between a couple that has made an open agreement from the start and communicates all their intentions and discusses everything with their spouse…

AND CHEATERS.

What I keep seeing here from the members of CL is conflating the two. Assuming they are the same. It isn’t.

It is possible to have intimacy, both emotional and sexual, in non-monogamous relationships. It is possible to be respectful of your spouse (and vice versa) with a non-monogamous relationship. It’s called being honest with them and not keeping secrets. It is not just all about finding as many sex partners as possible. And not every open couple “swings.” None of the couples I know swing. They don’t go to sex parties or have triads or wife-swap.

Cheaters are NOT honest. They ARE about getting as many sex partners as possible. They are careless with themselves and the bodies and feelings of others. They do what they want without being honest.

Being monogamous is not a requirement for being an honest person or a decent partner. It’s also not a requirement for intimacy. If a person can’t be honest with their partner and respect them in a monogamous relationship, then it’s not the relationship structure that’s the problem, it’s the person’s character. They’ll be just as dishonest in a poly relationship as they are in a monogamous one. You could give them 100 other partners and they’d still be selfish jerks.

It’s not the relationship structure. It’s the person. If someone doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong, they lack empathy and monogamy won’t change that.

If we can understand the concept of “Trust That They Suck” when it comes to actual cheating, why isn’t the same concept applying elsewhere?

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Kara. What everyone is saying here is simple: These people are NOT making a decision from the start, being open and honest and saying “I am non-monogamous – that is who I am, if you are happy with that, thats cool. I also won’t narc-rage if you do the same thing, and I encourage it.”
Instead, these twits are doing a bait and switch later on in the relationship, and they would NOT be happy with such an arrangement if their partners were doing it – because its all about them.
Theres a massive difference. And this article is showing the latter, not the former.

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  Lania

Donna: I actually agree with you that ‘open relationships’ are a crock of shit, to be honest. Either be with me, or piss off.
But to people who revel in that stuff, thats what I guess their mindset would be.

Donna
Donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Lania

The whole I’m fucking him and he’s funking her and she’s fucking him shit wrapped up in honesty and rules is just too fucked up. Why distinguish it as being respectful? To me it’s bullshit.

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Kara…. Forgive me but … But…. Most cheaters( unless suffering from some spectrum disorder or frontal lobotomy) know right from wrong. They just CHOSE to do what they want knowing that it is wrong… There is the rub. Thats the ‘ me, me me part’ in the equation.
And forgive me further … Because you will pinch your nose and sigh again… Couples who are in open relationships and are ‘ honest ‘ with eachother are probably the same percentage of mono couples who have open honest communication. That said, I would say given the stats most couples DO NOT have open and honest communication and more than likely one partner is eating a shit sandwhich to perserve the relationship.
Your friends are the exception… Not the norm. And if probed deeply enough more than likely one of them would admitt that they are doing it for their spouse. Thats my hunch.

Donna
Donna
8 years ago
Reply to  TheClip

Why get married. I can be single an have multiple partners. It is nonsense.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

It’s not all about sex? What – they want to share a pot roast with another person? It does not compute.

Whatever . . . people can do what they want. I know I wouldn’t get involved in that bullshit.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

I think your problem is you’re trying to simplify it too much. It comes across as “if it’s not about sex, then it’s about nothing.”

And yes, sometimes they DO share pot roast with other people. Is there something wrong with that?

If it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work for you. Someone who wants to be monogamous certainly should not have to be part of a poly setup if that’s not what they want. Not saying you have to support it or involve yourself in it, but it’s not bullshit and it’s a lot more complex than you’re giving it credit. There’s more than one way to structure a relationship and I don’t think that poly couples should have to force themselves to be monogamous if they don’t feel it is right for them. Key word “them,” as in both people agreeing in the arrangement, not one person deciding “I want more” and fucking off.

Monogamy isn’t about obsessively having sex with the same person all the time. Polyamory is not about compulsively having sex with as many people as possible. If those in poly relationships can respect the decisions of monogamous couples, why can’t monogamous couples afford poly couples the same respect?

No Regrets
No Regrets
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Monogamy is disrespected all the time, have you ever seen The Bachelor or any TV show where the mom is a shrew and the dad is a dope? haha. I don’t care if someone is poly. Do I get it? No. Seems like an awful amount of rules and juggling. There are still rules like in monogamy. I kinda think poly people are scared to be single and scared to be committed, but what do I know.

Einstein
Einstein
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

I understand what you are saying, Kara, and I don’t disagree. Whether are not someone is into polyamory has nothing to do with character and integrity (not my thing, but I’m not going to judge). Polyamory isn’t the problem, lying and deceit is, and I can’t see how anyone could have read your posts and thought you were defending anything in the article. It was clear to me that you weren’t. You cant stop pinching your nose now.

There was an article on Heartless Bitches International on polyamory, but more to the point railing on those who weren’t very nice polys. I assumed it was one of those cheater polyamorists. It’s a hilariously caustic read.

Let go
Let go
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

I guess the people you are referring to, Kara, started off in open relationships and stayed in them even when married. That is entirely different than being a 40 year old wife and being told by 45-year-old husband that he wants an open marriage. He just does not want to lose his 401k and other assets in the divorce.
Joyce Meyer is a TV evangelist who does not believe in divorce. So her head of security killed his wife and two children so he could be with his wife’s best friend. No open marriage. No divorce, because of job loss, so let’s just kill the people in the way. I wish you could make this shit up. No such luck, so two adorable children and their mother are dead because he wanted sex with someone else.

Her Blondeness
Her Blondeness
8 years ago
Reply to  Let go

As a parent I wish I had never googled that guy. After reading a comprehensive article in the St. Louis Magazine, and seeing pictures of those sweet boys, I think this Coleman murderer takes the disordered cake. But it’s no wonder – all interviews with his parents show a remarkable lack of grief over losing their grandsons. Apple, trees, and all that.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Let go

Holy crap!!!

That guy has more problems than just being a cheater. Jeebus that’s insane…

But yeah, the people I mean were open from day one and then got married instead of pulling 180’s on their spouses 20 years in.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Hey I’ve shared pot roast with other couples too. I just don’t want my partner to smash genitals with them, but that’s just me. Maybe I am simplifying too much, but in my brain, sex is between me and my partner. I wouldn’t be able to get the same level of intimacy if I were fucking other people, but again, that’s just me.

Come to think of it, I don’t even like sharing a small bag of Doritos with anybody so clearly, this is not my thing.

Hesatthecurb
Hesatthecurb
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

I’m with you, Rumble—-“keep your effing fingers off my snacks and keep your effing fingers off my man”.

Of course, the cheater XBF was responsible for his actions but his hos all knew about me and didn’t give a shit about how their collusion hurt me.

But, in the end, I prevail. The 2 perennial ho’s lives are in the crapper (ie: DWI of over twice the legal limit, 1 yr’s probation and an interlock device on her car and at 56, living with her parents) and the other’s 7th husband recently dumped her whoring FATTY FAT ass.

XBF’s life REALLY SUCKS….REALLY SUCKS. His previous transgressions bar any woman with half a deductive brain from giving him a second glance. His ultra handsomeness has become haggard from his lifetime of alcoholism and the crushing stress of maintaining the false persona.

As for me? I am thriving and enjoying my snacks with no itchy unwelcome encroachment.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Kara I appreciate your posts, I agree with you. The problem with the person in question is that she decided to do open marriage only after determining the risks were to harsh if she cheated again and I see zero thought about setting boundaries in her interview. Not to mention, her husband obviously did not answer questions for the write up. This looks more like a Newt Gringrich “open marriage” proposal than it does a truly well thought out and loving decision. There is not one word in the article about anything agreed upon by the couple.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Well if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work for you. People have their boundaries that they want in their relationships and that’s fine.

Kara
Kara
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

Which I would say is the difference between open marriages that actually function and cheaters. For cheaters, yeah it pretty much is all about sex when you get down to it.

Functional poly relationships are a lot more complex than that.

Donna
Donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Kara

I imagine you must have to keep an appointment book and get STD testing frequently. And be prepared to book ahead for vacations and New Year’s Eve. I find it difficult to find one person worthy of a relationship. I prefer a traditional more wholesome approach to life in general. Why the complication? Simplicity is underrated.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

My stand on partners who push for “open marriage” after the marriage is that they need to own up that they are changing the original contract and that the spouse who isn’t pushing it should get the option of walking out of the marriage with the kids and the bulk of the assets. Just another great argument for a pre-nup.

KarenE
KarenE
8 years ago

Cake, cake, cake …. And how you manage to maintain that deep bond and trust in your primary relationship while you’re each creating ‘meaningful’ relationships with other people, or 4 other people as the case may be, is beyond me.

But even so, if this is your thing, go with it. Honestly, openly.

GettingOverIt
GettingOverIt
8 years ago

This shit makes my head spin. These dimwits are never going to find any happiness. They’re SO bored, constantly looking for the next thrill, as if that’s what life is all about. I realize that’s part of their disorder, but really??? If I’m ever fortunate enough to fall for someone who’s made from more solid stuff and who appreciates the deeper meaning of things, I’m going to hang onto him.

And by the way, WTF are “polysexuals”? Are these fuckwads doing it with parrots now??

Oh, wait…..poly…..Polly…..never mind. 🙁

kim
kim
8 years ago
Reply to  GettingOverIt

ROTFLOL. And it aint a cracker their after.

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
8 years ago

I wonder what Jessie and her husband would do if Jessie became pregnant by one of her paramours?

Buddy
Buddy
8 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

Hey, please don’t pollute these wonderful concepts with reality!

Portia
Portia
8 years ago

I think I’m going to write a book, called When did Sex become THE Most Important Thing? Long ago and far away, when I was young and single, I dated several amorous young men, and enjoyed them in various and sundry ways. But never, even in my spirited and adventuresome youth was sex the most important thing. When I felt it was time to marry and settle down I did not pick the best sexual partner. I was more interested in whether or not my husband had a brain, a sense of humor, and potential to develop into a successful man and father for our future progeny. I even considered not having future progeny — and strangely that was more important to my husband than it was to me. Until we had the little princes. Then I realized that I had a bond with those two rug rats that was so strong that it would get me through the trials and tribulations of raising them and divorcing their dad. They were more important to me than sex, by a long shot. Keeping employment, providing housing, feeding and caring for them, and myself, was more important than sex, It was not that I didn’t enjoy sex — it was just not the focal point of my life. I just cannot understand how folks can make it the #1 priority, and are willing to throw everything else away just to pursue and enjoy unfettered sex.

The thing I wonder about the most is what happens to this type of person when time inevitably takes its toll? What happens when you can no longer use your knees and swing from the chandelier? What happens when the one who gave you crazy monkey love becomes ill? Do you just scamper away and find another monkey? How many monkeys can one reasonably expect to find in a lifetime? How many monkeys do you really need?

When I am bored, I start a new book, or watch a movie, or call my mother or my sons. My mother is 83, and I have no idea how much more time I am going to have with her, and I tell my sons that I won’t be around forever, either. My time spent with my mother and sons is more important than sex ever has been or will be for me. They are what love and commitment and loyalty and honor and character are all about for me. That is my #1 priority.

UnsinkableMollyX
UnsinkableMollyX
8 years ago
Reply to  Portia

concur with you, Portia…sex with my STBXH was great between us- until the last couple of years when he started pushing for me to get a “hall pass” from him, bringing a third person into the bedroom, feeling dissatisfied when my health problems made me less than satisfactory in the bedroom…yet I was here day in, day out, paying bills, cooking, cleaning, laundry, raising our daughter, etc.

Right now I’m here with our daughter while he gets off free and clear to go wherever he wants and with whomever he desires…it just hurts so bad that being a good wife and loving him unconditionally just wasn’t enough.

It’s at the point now where I’m just not going to bother even thinking of finding a good man/relationship- there’s no point!!!!

Buddy
Buddy
8 years ago
Reply to  Portia

I disagree (via my own projections and experience). My stbxw was definitely searching out ego-kibbles and “true love” far more than she was searching for “just sex.” She had it in her mind that we didn’t have passion, and she was determined to find the passion she deserved, a combo of sex and true love. But whether it is sex or true love as the primary motivation, it still comes down to entitlement.

I do think sex is VERY important is a healthy marriage. I don’t think you can have intimate, vulnerable, authentic connection or romantic love without it. And I think this is true for both sexes. Generally, if a spouse is withholding sex, excluding medical issues, it isn’t because he or she is tired, it is because she isn’t attracted to her husband, so the couple should work on those attraction issues.

That being said, I don’t think most affairs are due to one spouse withholding sex – I think that is a fib cheaters tell after the fact. For example, newchumpatl was making an effort to have a connection, but the cheater cheated anyways. Or the cheater never let the chump know there was an issue, or they make up issues after the fact.

I think it comes down more to entitlement and selfishness. Healthy individuals will communicate issues of attraction or lack of sex and try to improve the relationship. Cheaters will just cheat.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

Sex important, Buddy? This is a prime example of Patriarchy, IMO. It is downright oppressive.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Qatandard reply to idiot Arnold posts; fuck off Arnold

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Patriarchy made me say it,Dat.

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

I can fell the sexual tension between you two!!!!
Hahahah

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  TheClip

She does sound like a bed of hot coals in the sack.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  TheClip

Oh no, that’s so wrong TheClip!!! Hahahaha Arnold.

Buddy
Buddy
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

One of the biggest eye openers through this process has been the realization that women really do want and like sex – but it has to be with someone they respect and are attracted too, which is why I said above, if you are in a sexless marriage, it probably isn’t because the person doesn’t have sexual desires, they just don’t desire it with you, i.e. lack of attraction for some reason. A painful realization when reading my wife’s emails to her AP.

I generally don’t play the gender card on CL site, because I think there is plenty of common ground between the sexes, but sexual desire is common to both sexes and probably has its roots in continuing the species, not in politics or oppression.

Again, I think infidelity is far more about ego-kibbles, entitlement and narcissistic character than it is about sex or sexual desire. It gets manifested in sex, but I don’t think that is the root cause, unless you buy into the whole sexual addiction stuff.

Portia
Portia
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

Buddy — I think that people of both sexes have sex or not due to a wide variety of reasons. I think women can have sex based strictly on attraction, availability and convenience just like men. I am not trying to say that sex is not important, just that it is not the #1 most important thing, for me.

Sure, sexual desire varies for individuals. There may be some high libido 90 year olds still getting it on more than 3 times a week. But I don’t believe that is average behavior. I could be wrong — I have no type of sex-o-meter to determine the truth of the matter, and I don’t believe people always tell the truth when they are interviewed.

Maybe I am the odd person out statistically. I just have a lot of things that are more important to me than sex. Who am I to say that my important things are more important than your important things?

I just hate the thought that I would stop loving someone simply and singly because I was not able to have sex with them, regardless if it was because of my inability or his inability. It will just never be the #1 important thing in my life.

If age and health and time and ability all were non-factors, I would like to believe that a happy couple would work out a mutually satisfying schedule to meet both people’s needs. It is usually part of the reason you become part of a couple, anyway. It is normal to want to be loved and valued and touched and pleasured. In the long run, however, I believe other factors are more important than this 1 factor. That is the point I was trying to make.

I don’t believe I was cheated on because my x had a higher sex drive than I did. I think my x would have been a cheater for all the various kibbles he received by cheating. He may have concentrated on the freak behaviors and he may have become obsessed with those behaviors — but he cheated because he had no character, because he was selfish and entitled. To me, the focus on the sex, alone, is a cop out.

Carmella1722
Carmella1722
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

Warning: The following response is rated R for anyone who wants to skip over the sexual details, but I include them to illustrate my point.

Oh Buddy, Buddy, that’s just the shit cheaters say. 1. They have to make the AP feel attractive and feed their egos so they can in turn have theirs fed. And 2. They say anything to justify the cheating to themselves and the AP. Not attracted to spouse, loveless marriage, only together for the kids, on and on it goes. Mine said I didn’t like oral and would push his face away. Not true. Said I would only blow him for 30 seconds. Not true, in fact, he would praise my talent in that particular activity. Once after very long, wild, 2 hour throw me up against the wall sex, (a rare occasion and only happened because he was so sexually charged up at the beginning of their affair), he told her it was “meh, lights off , missionary.” Had he only said ‘meh’, I would have been devestated, but lights off, missionary? He just had to make her feel special and sexy and better than me. Very common in affairs. Please don’t bring yourself down by believing the shit these fucking callous liars say.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

Buddy, I agree sex is as important to both genders dependent on their needs in that regard.

Portia
Portia
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

I think that there comes a time in a long term marriage (if you marry young and stay married thru all the good and bad times that happen in Life) when sex is no longer important. I think this type of couple have been with each other so long, that they don’t even have to have long conversations. They know each other well and they are comfortable just “being” there. They are the type of couple where one dies, and the other dies shortly afterwards. They meant it when they said their vows. They can sit comfortably on the porch and rock and watch the world go by and they don’t have to comment to each other to communicate. They can raise an eyebrow or grin, and the other will nod or smile.

This may not be a common phenomenon, but I have seen it happen. Passion may kick start a relationship, and it may be hot and steamy for years. But a loving commitment is forged by all the other attractions — passion may seal the deal when you are young, but it can fizzle out if that is all there is.

It may be hard to believe when you are young and the juices are flowing hot and heavy. You may even recognize that the most stupid things you have ever done have been done because of sexual attraction. But when you start to mature – other things become much more important than jumping your lover’s bones. Things like actually loving your lover. Things like honor, and character, and responsibility, and being there for your children and your family. I am not saying that sex is not important at all — it is a wonderful, binding, thrilling thing in a loving and committed relationship. But sex won’t hold you together.

The reality for men (in general, per current medical knowledge) is that they start losing their abilities from 40 onward to participate in sexual activity. Women generally lose interest when they are young because they are exhausted, or ill, but as they age they have less interest too. Both men and women may be able to “perform” sex-like functions — but if it is done for obligation instead of interest and ability, the “activity” loses its thrill. It is perfectly natural to lose that “burning yearning” as you age — your timetable may differ as an individual, but unless you are way off the charts statistically — your ability and interest will fade as you age. If your marriage is not based on more than sex, and if you don’t have common values and memories and character — it will probably not last. It won’t fail because of not having sex 3 or more times a week. It will fail because you have nothing in common.

If you marry someone you really don’t know, if you married a mirage, and that person does not have the values and character and is an entitled selfish piece of work — no amount of sex is going to make that marriage work. If you married someone who thinks sex is the #1 thing, and you don’t, that marriage won’t work. I speak from experience here.

I feel sorry for anyone who thinks they become nothing if they cannot have sex. Any one of us could become ill or have an accident, and suddenly our lives are changed for the rest of our time. If we have married someone who thinks we are no longer worth anything because we can no longer serve a sexual function, then we have not married well.

Each of us is a member of chump nation because we entered a relationship with someone that was supposed to be more than just recreational sex. If that is all you ever wanted, why enter a relationship at all? There are plenty of places to get recreational sex. If you don’t care anything about your partner’s wishes, and only about gratifying your own, then stop seeking normalcy — you are missing a component necessary to chumps everywhere. Find other recreational folks and have at it. Just stop the lies. Stop telling me I am not sophisticated, or cool. Talk to yourself, you are the only one who is important anyway. Just stop trying to convince me.

Buddy
Buddy
8 years ago
Reply to  Portia

I guess I haven’t reached the point where sex is no longer important. I am in my fifties, and it is still very important to me. I’ve lived through a sexless marriage and it was incredibly frustrating to be rejected over and over.

I don’t see sex as some separate, independent, unimportant thing unrelated to love.

But yeah, I still am a chump. I was rejected and rejected and then she cheated with her “true love” – kick in the gut for sure.

Carmella1722
Carmella1722
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

Buddy, I think it’s important too. My marriage lacked sex and intimacy throughout the entire 17 years. It didn’t trail off gradually either. He wanted it all the time before we got married, and then it’s like someone flipped a switch. Little did I know he was getting it elsewhere. I felt, and still feel, like the ugliest person in the world. It’s very demoralizing for a woman to be rejected. I read somewhere that men will sometimes passive-aggressively withhold sex if they feel emasculated for some reason. Who the hell knows what his problem was. But he would never address it. He had a big belly and started getting man-boobs and was never very good at it. But I would taken that belly and those man-boobs and that mediocre sex forever because I loved that man. Wild passionate animal sex? Bring it. Sweet, tender lovemaking, yes please! Got 5 minutes before the kids wake up? ok. But sleeping in each other’s arms would have been just as gratifying to me. Because it’s the intimacy more so even than the sex that’s important. If the sexual attraction eventually diminishes, the intimacy helps keep the marriage alive and healthy IMO.

UnsinkableMollyX
UnsinkableMollyX
8 years ago
Reply to  Carmella1722

THIS ^^^^ YES!!!! Carmella1722, I agree with you! I wanted the sweet, sweet love/intimacy over porn-film-dirty-talking-hot-monkey-sex any day!!! He never quite understood that.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

Buddy, I’m with you, sex has always been important to me and my ex deprived me of that gift for years. I place it high on my list if what I need. Yet I decided to stay because I loved ex, then found out his ED was some sick issues he had with power and control. I let him deprive me of that becaUse I didn’t ever think the true thought; even if he couldn’t come, if he loved me we could still have sex that did not require that, and he would have been happy to do it.

Portia, while I agree with much of your post I strongly disagree with the idea that everyone’s sex drive wanes so much it becomes unimportant. I think that wane in drive comes from being with a partner that denies you or from a depression or other issue that causes your sex drive to wane due to your own mind issues over aging. I know this is true for me, I squelched my sex drive successfully to stay with the asshole, I did it so well I am having difficulty recovering it. Sex is probably the most awesome and good things humans can enjoy, I’m damned if I’ll pretend it’s not.

KarenE
KarenE
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Somebody needs to bring in the research info on this topic; sex drive (libido) varies among humans, much as height and nose size do. Like height, the average for men is somewhat higher for women, but like height, there are plenty of women who are more interested in sex than plenty of men, and plenty of women on the ‘high libido’ end, just fewer than men.

AND the research also clearly shows that if you were very interested in sex (high libido) as a young person, you will likely to continue to be so THROUGHOUT your life. For high libido people, age or length of relationship DO NOT determine a reduction in sexual interest or activity. For aging average-to-high libido people, it’s loss of their partner, health problems, or low physical fitness that are likely to reduce sexual activity, not lack of interest.

And yeah, speaking as a life-long high libido person (although menopause did cool it down some), sex has always been very important in my relationships. I would not have been able to be in a long-term relationship with someone whose interest in sex was low, or with whom I was not sexually compatible. That doesn’t mean I’d leave a long-term commitment if health or other issues made sex impossible, but it does mean I’d have been looking long and hard for ways to still have some of that pleasure and connection.

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Sex is an important part of a relationship… But it shouldnt be the Axis on which it pivots. There is so much more to love. I think your partner and Buddy’s used it as a tool to manipulate… and it was effective.
If it wasnt sex then it would have been something else….yours happen to be sex.

Not Juliet
Not Juliet
8 years ago
Reply to  TheClip

The Clip, Dr. Phil said something that made sense to me. If you have a satisfying sex life it is like 10% of your relationship. If you don’t have a satisfying sex life, it is like 90% of your relationship. I guess because it creates a barrier between you.

My first marriage was very sexual but the relationship itself was crap, due to his alcoholism and eventually abuse. So maybe I just got my fill and am basically take it or leave it.

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago
Reply to  TheClip

Dat
maybe I expalined myself wrongly. We all have things that our spouse/ SO know is important to us. They know the sticking point and will go there when they want to hurt. For you… Your Idiot with held sex knowing it was important to you. It was his leverage. And then probably tried to make you feel bad or abnormal for having a sex drive. And what will they do… Once you feel rejected …. They give up the goods to someone else. Its a mind fuck.
Sorry that yours robbed you of your intimacy. I hope you find some one that rocks your world with tantric sex and pillow talk. Take care of you.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  TheClip

Theclip, no it was sex because he knew it was so important to me, it is nirvana to me

Gypsy57
Gypsy57
8 years ago
Reply to  Portia

*Stands up and slowly claps for Portia*

EXCELLENT, Portia! Simply BRILLIANT!

ChumpB
ChumpB
8 years ago
Reply to  Gypsy57

More standing ovation for Portia!

Shechump
Shechump
8 years ago
Reply to  ChumpB

Applauding also. I’m one of those wives that put up with one-way sex for 35 yrs, so I understand the concept of sex not being the #1 thing (in our marriage) . We had so much more in common than sex is what held our glue together. I figured out well how to please myself, and I pleased him whenever he wanted. I always wondered if our relationship was weird and decided no other couples were having sex either (they were lying about it-lol).

That is why I was so shocked he had an affair (with Intercourse!) with another woman.
He never seemed to like my body or want to figure it out. He certainly didn’t want to put his penis in it.
(one-way sex is one of the worst things in a marriage – why would anybody put up with it? huh? SheChump-huh?)

I always figured if he had an affair, it would be for a man – as I didn’t understand his sexuality and lack of interest in me since our honeymoon. When we went to counseling early on about it – He Said He Was Different…and he hated himself and could shoot himself in the head.
That really freaked me out. I felt sorry for him.

I totally quit bringing it up after that and decided to accept him for the way he was with his issues.
WHAT A SUCKER I AM!

I’ve quite trying to figure it out.

All I know is – he won’t change for her. He is disordered and he doesn’t like the smell of vagina.

not Juliet
not Juliet
8 years ago
Reply to  Portia

Portia , I agree with you. I know that my parents loved each other very much, but I really doubt that sex was a primary concern during his five year battle with cancer. It’s not a particularly good indication if love, in my opinion. It can be. But it can also just be screwing, to put it bluntly. I do know that if your main reason for staying with someone is sex, or chemistry, or appearance you I really don’t have much of a relationship. Just my opinion.

Donna
Donna
8 years ago
Reply to  not Juliet

This is it exactly.

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago
Reply to  Portia

Portia… It all goes back to the Marshmallow Test. Sex..Marshmallows … Its that instant gratification. And its a filler. We are so easily conditioned now a days. Recall the 10 min wAit it took for the computer to load? Now we lose our minds if if not less than one min.
Not sure when it all started… Instant coffee? Microwaves? Maybe the ball point pen… But its certainly learned and our personalities make us less or more susceptible to it.
The internet is now a great vehicle for our need for instant gratification. The sex industry has boomed. And now the options are endless. You can have yr sex six ways to Sunday…We have made sex a commodity. Will we die from not having our monkey spanked 3.25 times per week? But once u get to spanking the monkey that many times a week … Its hard to throw it in reverse. And thats the hook. Fucking endorphins.
We dont delay anything anymore… Its all now now now. I can get my brazilian done while sipping my triple grande mocha fling while purchasing my kids birthday gift on amazon. I beleive sex has just moved along with the times and media machine further crams all this shit down our throats. We are so manipulated and brainwashed into happy little consumer sponges with blurry lines of morality.
I recently had the chance to tune out… 5 days no electronics… No triple fuzzy wuzzy mochas…. In a tent … With no running water… No facilities. Enjoying the quiet… The stars….. And my two neighbors humping like grizzlies in the adjancent tent. Got any marshmallows? I will be over by the fire.

SphinxMoth
SphinxMoth
8 years ago
Reply to  Portia

Portia, you hit it right square on the nose. When Did Sex Become The Most Important Thing.

Well, I dated a guy some years ago, he is Hawaiian/German. (this makes a difference, as culturally, Hawaiians are very open/honest, sometimes to a fault) We were discussing “futures”–ours, in particular. I was concerned and wanted assurances that if I became sick/ill in my waning years, that he would be there for me without fail, as I would promise to do for him.

His response? He would love me forever, but if there came a time that I would no longer be able to have sex, then he would have to move on. I would want that for him, RIGHT? I would want him to have sex until the day he died, RIGHT?

I was appalled. We argued. Examples came up such as “what if you get prostate cancer and are rendered impotent by surgery/radiation? Should I leave you because I don’t get sex from you?” His response was that I would be “moving on” anyway, BECAUSE HE WOULD COMMIT SUICIDE if he could not have sex the “regular way” (without viagra or a prosthesis).

Stunned. Absolutely, jaw on the floor stunned. I had no answer, but I did know one thing—I would rather die ALONE than invest in someone who is going to fly out the door the second that I might show myself to be human.

When did sex become the most important thing? To the majority of men—it has ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY (cue Arnold in 4….3…2…1…). Since the dawn of time, men have a biological imperative to spread their seed far and wide—and THEY LIKE IT THAT WAY. Patriarchal societies aren’t set up that way by accident.

Most of my women friends say that they would LOVE to stay married to the same guy forever….and if they could NEVER have sex again with him? That’s okay too. In fact, some have said that they would much prefer the platonic marriage—but it is the man that would NEVER be okay with that. You don’t give me sex? I will find it elsewhere, even if I have to pay for it.

I just shocks the shit out of me that humanity has devolved to the point of being a 14 year old boy in attitude—that NOTHING other than the ability/willingness to have sexual relations matters. Not loyalty, not common interests, not just plain old FRIENDSHIP.

I know, I know. If I want friendship—go get a pet. Yeah—and that’s pretty much what most of us end up doing when we see how trashy and vile the “dating world” has become. I’m fine with it. I don’t have to be afraid of STDs, of crazy APs killing me or my kids, of a spouse spending my hard earned retirement.

The constant barrage of sexuality in this society makes this a thousand fold worse. In your face, 24/7, “just a click away” sexual encounters—-add that with Edward Bernays’ clever “consumerism” and planned obsolescence—you have what we’ve got now.

Gotta have the best, right now, I deserve it—and if I can’t have everything I want right now—I am entitled to go out and get whatever it is that I feel makes me happy. Until it doesn’t. Then I have the right to go and find something else that makes me happy.

What’s that? I need to be concerned about the people in my path? WHY? They can go out and get theirs too! They can do what I do, what’s their problem? I’m ALLOWED to do this, because I am an American! I get to do what I want, when I want, to whomever I want. I if you don’t like it, you can move to some other country!!

Sound familiar? We’ve been declining in all things moral as a society since the great Ayn Rand Experiment—“I’ve got mine, who gives a shit about you.”

Break free of monogamy—-DUMBASS….that’s called DIVORCE.

ChumpFromF
ChumpFromF
8 years ago
Reply to  SphinxMoth

(Side note: ” I was more interested in whether or not my husband had … potential to develop into a successful man”.
Funny, how American women have no problem with saying something like this. It is so NOT romantic. I don’t think women in my country would ever admit that they chose their man based on money. Looks, personality, great sex, all sound more acceptable to us than the wallet. Of course, many women go for the checkbook I’m sure, they simply would never admit it, and would rather say it was love at first sight, or whatever. Cultural differences…).

Portia
Portia
8 years ago
Reply to  ChumpFromF

Success is not about JUST money. In America we have many different measures for success. Many people are concerned about money — it is a practical consideration if you want to live in a nice home and pay your bills on time. But for me, money is only one of many indicators which equals success. Don’t be so quick to jump to conclusions about Americans in general. We are a nation of vastly different individuals. I would never assume that one French person spoke for France, or one German, or one English citizen for their countries.

I have a long list of criteria I would include in an evaluation for whether or not a person is living a successful life. If a person is a liar and a cheater, I don’t believe the other criteria would overide those bad things, and the person would never be a success in my eyes. Success is just shorthand for that long list.

Sorry for your confusion. I really don’t find money very romantic. The things that I find romantic may be very different from the things you find romantic, but again, I don’t assume.

Carmella1722
Carmella1722
8 years ago
Reply to  SphinxMoth

But…..at least you knew that about that guy and we’re able to make an informed decision not to spend your life with him.

newchumpatl
newchumpatl
8 years ago
Reply to  SphinxMoth

Sound familiar? We’ve been declining in all things moral as a society since the great Ayn Rand Experiment—“I’ve got mine, who gives a shit about you.”

This I agree with. No one seems real concerned about anyone else anymore.. it’s all about me me me.

Shechump
Shechump
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

newchhumpatl ‘This I agree with. No one seems real concerned about anyone else anymore.. it’s all about me me me.’

I am going to respectfully disagree here.
I find people every day that are concerned about many people.
In fact, I like to surround myself with them, when possible.

The Farmer’s Market people – and craftsmen – always a story about jam..honey.
People who knit – fascinating to me, watching them waft away their day.
The musicians who set up, while other are selling fresh produce and plants and honey and organic chickens….
…and the fun part is – dog are allowed. And, many nice dogs there interacting with other dogs, kids and people.
It’s a party I like to go to every Sat morning’s.

I like to think that there ARE good people everywhere, when we search them out.
I have no room for MEMEME people in my life ever again.

It’s been a blessing to know I’ve finally figured this out (bit by bit) but I see selfish people really clearly now, and, I think that is my silver lining in all this.horrible.shit.I’ve.gone.thru.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  SphinxMoth

Bullshit, nuff said.

TheClip
TheClip
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Oh Arnold… Why are you dropping the Bullshit flag on the play? You walked right into it might I add.

newchumpatl
newchumpatl
8 years ago
Reply to  Portia

The other reasonable course of action, if you are unhappy with your spouse, is to TELL THEM. Work on it together. Once my STBX bomb dropped me, I went into a furious pick me dance and pretzel routine that would have made the best ballerina proud. I ACTUALLY TRIED to address the issues the son of a bitch brought to my attention. Some of them were legitimate. We have busy jobs, a toddler, an older child, a million things going and sex had fallen on the list, as had our connection. I really tried to prioritize it and him. See, this is what they do… they hit you with things that they KNOW are your weaknesses… things they KNOW you will take to heart. And I feel for it, Chump that I am.

But of course, it was never enough. All of my overtures of love were thrown RIGHT back into my face, along with mercilessly gaslighting me and blaming me for all the faults of the marriage. He was never happy, I didn’t meet his needs, I didn’t make him feel loved. Even after all the pretzeling, it didn’t matter.

The reason is he was fucking someone else all along. It’s tough to work on a marriage when one person is fucking someone else.

He continues to deny it to this day. He continues to blame me for his life.. his faults… his guilt. He continues to play the poor sausage routine.. continues to rationalize to himself that taking up with this slut is justified because “my wife didn’t pay enough attention to me”. WAAAAAAHHHH. I was too busy earning a living, raising our kids, making our home, doing algebra homework, wiping noses and asses and he was out cultivating a relationship with a cheap whore. It’ s not like he was putting his attention on ME. I was keeping all the balls in the air and he was out dreaming of a family free life with the tramp.

So- now he’s free to pursue it. I hope it works out. And in 20 years when he’s old and sick (he’s a smoker, so it’s a matter of time) I hope the whore will be there to give him his meds and hold his hand. I doubt she will be. And I sure won’t. Not sure about his boys… I doubt seriously this will endear them to him either. After all, some bottom feeder woman is apparently more important to him than we all are- that kind of stuff isn’t lost on children. Good luck explaining that to them when they are old enough to understand it.

ByeByeCheater
ByeByeCheater
8 years ago
Reply to  newchumpatl

portia and newchumpatl – awesome posts…I agree completely with both of you!

ChumpB
ChumpB
8 years ago
Reply to  ByeByeCheater

Portia and newchumpatl, amazing insight. I love every word!

Dr. I Can't Believe I'm a Chump
Dr. I Can't Believe I'm a Chump
8 years ago

I’m not going to comment on the open-relationship thing. However, these articles are particularly abrasive mostly because of their bravado: This is the enlightened way to relationships and monogamy is synonymous with boredom and feeling dead.

As someone who “grew up with a notion of personal independence much different from the one taught in the 1st century AD”, I value monogamy and quality relationships. I’m not sure why the concepts have to be mutually exclusive.

Just another disappointing article from WaPo.

WiserToday
WiserToday
8 years ago

What next? An app that lets users swap out their toothbrushes and vibrators? Gahh…

Lyn
Lyn
8 years ago

I guess for some people sex is the most important thing in life. They believe it has to stay exciting, maybe variety feeds that for them. For me, sex is a benefit of a mutually reciprocal, committed and loving relationship. It isn’t the be all, end all. Connecting with someone emotionally and being in a relationship that adds value to my life is more important. If I was in a long term, committed relationship and my partner got prostate cancer and could no longer have sex, that wouldn’t be the end of the relationship for me. To me that’s not most important thing about him.

Honestly, the thought of juggling 4 extramarital partners on top of a home, husband and children sounds like torture. Guess the woman interviewed has a lot more energy than I do!

LadyStrange
LadyStrange
8 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

My thoughts exactly Lyn.

nomar
nomar
8 years ago

“How to break free from monogamy without destroying marriage”

That is, How to break free of a thing without destroying a second thing that has that first thing as its foundation? Brilliant.

Other articles we can expect soon from WaPo:

“How to break free from SOBRIETY without destroying AA.”

“How to break free from MORALITY without destroying RELIGION.”

“How to break free from REASON, WISDOM, AND INTEGRITY without destroying THE WASHINGTON POST’S OPINION SECTION.”

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Amen, Nomar.

ChumpB
ChumpB
8 years ago

High five nomar!

not Juliet
not Juliet
8 years ago

Good God, how many more dating sites, married or otherwise, do they need? Jessie and hubby have to be in at least their forties. How many horny middle aged /old folks are there out there?

Roberta
Roberta
8 years ago
Reply to  not Juliet

Not Juliet, How many middle aged/horny folks out there? Please don’t ask! If the group my ex got involved with is any indication then there are a whole gaggle of these broken minds out there! It’s frightening to me really to know that the ONLY thing upper most in their tiny pea brains is getting their genitalia rubbed! I mean I like sex, a lot, but it isn’t the end all and be all of my life! Geesh!

Not Juliet
Not Juliet
8 years ago
Reply to  Roberta

Roberta, I’ve had an on again/off again relationship with sex my entire adult life. Sometimes it’s interesting, sometimes it’s not. I bet lots of people are like that. I did the usual college/ early 20s sexual experimentation and I found out pretty early that sex with random strangers is overrated and not for me, lol.

The cheaters don’t realize anyone can go out and get laid anytime , we just choose not to. If I didn’t enjoy it back then when I was hot and young and skinny so I certainly wouldn’t now, lol.

itsAJourney
itsAJourney
8 years ago

A couple things that were immediately apparent to me:
1) Ethical Non-Monogamy = Open Relationship. Nothing new here, but nice spin.
2) Only the most well educated are capable of understanding this commitment/non-commitment/ethical non-monogamy thing. Now it makes sense. I’m such a simpleton. Does MIT offer online degrees? If so, then there may be hope for my shattered marriage!

kimmy
kimmy
8 years ago

I view intimacy as a way to convey my emotions and feelings. I view sex as an ACT. Therein lies the difference!!! I think these people who want to be in open marriages have difficulty sharing and showing their emotions to their spouses. I believe that if you are connecting emotionally with your spouse you wouldn’t be able to share your body with anyone else. JMHO!

ItsAJourney
ItsAJourney
8 years ago
Reply to  kimmy

Good point Kimmy. So true. I’ve always craved that connection… still do. If all I wanted was sex I could have it, but I’m hoping for a deep connection some day. I haven’t had sex with my husband in years because he treated me like a tool, and didn’t desire any kind of deeper connection, no matter what I tried. I’m exhausted from the lies and deception, and starved for affection. If a random hook-up could alleviate some of this frustration I would do it in a heartbeat. But for now, I’ll just keep adopting animals that give me cuddles and kisses.

ChumpFromF
ChumpFromF
8 years ago
Reply to  ItsAJourney

Haha, same here. The only fidelity and true love I seem to have been getting in my home for years, come from my adorable adopted dogs.

sephage
sephage
8 years ago
Reply to  kimmy

Amen, kimmy.

When the *act* of sex gets boring wit your partner (and for guys like me, it eventually will), here’s a novel idea: hey, how about using your intimacy to actually TALK TO YOUR PARTNER ABOUT IT? You might have great ideas, as might they, that don’t involve other partners, lying, secrecy, betrayal, endangerment of health, misappropriation of marital assets, and bullsh*t! 😉 Whoops, cheaters didn’t that memo, and those looking for the types of “relationships” this app presumes to sell us are missing a huge part of the point (or, don’t care, and unfortunately – for them – are incapable of true sexual, intimate partnership).

Now that I am progressing through divorce (the STBXW, after raging about wanting separation and then divorce, never filed herself… and I just found out has yet to even accept the complaint of divorce…), I tell my buddies “it’s been a few months since I had sex, but it’s probably been at least a couple of years since I made love.” With the STBX being a cold, distant ‘wife-cicle,’ sex didn’t connect us, so the act of sex couldn’t reach the heightened state of true love-making.

Just my $0.02 on it, but I doubt that I am the only chump guy with a healthy sexual appetite who wants a deep connection with a (as in singular!) woman because he knows that the sex is actually much better when that happens.

Let go
Let go
8 years ago
Reply to  sephage

Sephage, there are lots of guys like you. We don’t hear from them because…….and here’s an idea……..they are taking care of their families. That was my brother. His wife didn’t get the memo.

Let go
Let go
8 years ago
Reply to  Let go

Oh, and she didn’t find her soul mate, she found several as she was abandoning her family, children included. No, she did not go to MIT but she was a college educated cheating piece of shit.

scotty
scotty
8 years ago

I feel like this app is the natural progression of the “Random Hookup/Friends with Benefits” generation/culture, and caters to that market. The young adults whose “relationships” through their late teens and 20s were extremely shallow and narcissistic are hitting that age where they think they should be married, or recognize it does have benefits (for them)- but are too immature, selfish and entitled to give up their cake for a real commitment. They don’t KNOW how to think about anybody but themselves and their needs, they’ve never had to. (For the record, I’m in my late 30s so this was already a thing when I was in college)

If you meet somebody on the same page and that’s what they’re looking for also FROM DAY ONE, go nuts, that’s not my bag. I’ll trade the possibility of getting some strange for my choice to never do the pick me dance again for the rest of my life.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  scotty

Scotty, you are too young to do the get off my lawn and these young people are no good thing. I’m in my fifties and I assure you the hookup shit is not new, we just called it by a different name

KarenE
KarenE
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Even before my time it was ‘free love’, then in the 80s it was ‘one night stands’ …..

Average number of partners by the time people hit 40 years old hasn’t changed since the 60s.

newchumpatl
newchumpatl
8 years ago
Reply to  scotty

Bingo. SAY NO to the pick me dance.

nomar
nomar
8 years ago

Fact that Brandon Wade went to MIT has nothing to do with whether his sex site is socially relevant or morally acceptable, so why tout that as a qualification in an article about his sex site? It’s a technical school, after all. Dude might know a lot about the coefficients of friction for concrete but clearly lacks a basic understanding of culture, religion, history, and ethics. I have an undergrad degree is in philosophy. Does that give me special authority in a conversation about the safe construction of highway suspension bridges?

Narcissism dressed up in a cap and gown is narcissism nonetheless.

namedforvera
namedforvera
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Welp, it’s a school with one of the highest student suicide rates, fwiw. (a sad statistic, to be sure.)

Students famously not so great with the social skillz; super-duper tech whizzes. I’ve known many a professor; high percentage of those where also MIT bred in the bone. Narcs all. (The “I’m the smartest kid the room” syndrome.)

Even the MacArthur “genius” award winner (MIT family) who was an adviser to my kid’s church youth group was kind of a jerk, in person. Globally wonderful, personally obnoxious. So it goes!

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Come on guys, this is a way to “other” people based on random personal experiences, don’t do that, a bias against every MIT grad over anecdote is uncool. I’m sure I can find dozens of them who’ve done cool stuff and charitable stuff if I look

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

What type of vertical did he have?

Hesatthecurb
Hesatthecurb
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

HEY!!! RE MIT: My dad went to MIT and he was an exemplary man. Some of his accomplishments—while employed by General Foods, he invented Sugar Crisps cereal and he ‘improved’ Grape Nuts, (they were VERY HARD until he got ahold of them)….

He later went on to hold the position of Vice President of Governmental Affairs for Dr Pepper Co. (yes, he was privy to the secret ingredient that gave DP it’s special flavor)

Prior to achieving these accomplishments (and many others), he was an aerogropher, responsible for airmen knowing the climate and cloud cover they were flying into during WWII.

namedforvera
namedforvera
8 years ago
Reply to  Hesatthecurb

Yes–didn’t mean to grossly smear Beavers (MIT folk). Of course not… and thanks for the improved Grape-Nuts. Love ’em.

Indeed many wonderful things from that place. My statement was based on small-batch artisanal data….heh. Yet, it is sadly true that all the many faculty I know from there have set high water marks for jerkitude. but then again, they are competing with the WGU up the river /jk.

nomar
nomar
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

I don’t think anyone intended to smear folks for being associated with MIT. My point was that a person’s former attendance at a technical school is no reason to defer to them on matters of morality or even social norms. Which is what was implied by the article, if only indirectly (an emblem of his being “educated” and “pragmatic”). Dude went to MIT. Who cares? Point is his ideas are stupid and harmful. As CL said, clever ain’t character.

Wren
Wren
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Clever does not equate with moral.
A brilliant I.Q. does not equate with moral.
Prestige does not equate with moral.
A big title does not equate with moral.
Successful does not equate with moral.
Having three Ph.Ds does not equate with moral.
Talented does not equate with moral.

Unfortunately these are all the things that bring automatic admiration in our country.

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Comes down to one thing really – its character, not generalisations.
There are shitty people in every walk of life – not everyone in said walk of life is shitty.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Funny, I never see MIT in any NCAA basketball tournaments. I bet half of their players cannot even dunk.

nomar
nomar
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

On the plus side, I’m guessing that team keeps *really* accurate statistics.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Nice

DavidB
DavidB
8 years ago

At least with this method, there is some honesty. I dont know if it would work for many people. But I would rather have had my wife state it before she went outside our marriage. At least then, I would have had options. Instead, my wife listened to her so called friends who live this life style. But each and everyone of them lie and hide it. And none have had a good outcome. And neither have we had a positive outcome.

Scott
Scott
8 years ago

“Interesting, introspective, happily married D.C. professional,”

If she was introspective she wouldn’t be trolling apps to pick up other guys, she’d be addressing why she has a problem inside of herself. She’d be doing the hard work to figure out why her husband isn’t enough, why she’s not content with a long term relationship, why she cheated on her first husband, why she’s basically cheating again, but just bullying her hubby to go along with it…

And she’s not happily married. She admits it. Why is denial so rampant these days? Wow.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
8 years ago

“Jessie has shown her husband her profile on several dating sites, including Open Minded. When she returns from her weekly date with one of her four extramarital partners, she tells him as much, or as little, as he likes.”

So, lemme try and get my brain around this; How does the conversation go?

Hubby: How was your date dear?
Jessie: OMG you should have seen the schlong on this dude! Amazing!
Hubby: Oh that guy Rob? Yeah you said he was impressive.
Jessie: No not Rob, I’m talking about Bill.
Hubby: Oh that’s right, it’s Tuesday. I have my days mixed up.
Jessie: Silly Hubby . . . what’s for dinner!?

Tessie
Tessie
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Actually I can’t imagine a more sadistic scene. Here is hubby coerced into sitting still for his wife having 4 (count em)….4 potential lovers. he’s stuck dancing pretty while she’s describing her “dates.” If he has a “problem” with this, he isn’t “progressive” and “open minded”. …..Hey I’m so fab there 4 guys panting after me….me…..meeeee….”

Good grief, I can’t imagine a bigger shit sandwich. That poor man.

Yep, color me closed minded and stuck in the dark ages, But I want to be the most important person in my S.O’s life if I give him the gift of making him the most important person in my life. I’m talking about a healthy, balanced relationship. If I can’t have that, I refuse to play. Period.

I’ve been used enough in my life….no more.

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Well said! I wouldn’t say you’re ‘closed minded’ – pretty sure everyone here shares your view.
If you’re being debased and disrespected that much, theres zero point being in that relationship. And its harming your sense of self-respect to even attempt to do so.

LadyStrange
LadyStrange
8 years ago
Reply to  Rumblekitty

Hahaha – good analogy Rumble…. I was thinking (confused) along the same lines. Weird.

Buddy
Buddy
8 years ago
Reply to  LadyStrange

This is another reason why the openness in the open marriage will lead to the demise of the marriage (if you buy the evolutionary biology theories of attraction): Jessie’s attraction for her husband will only go down and down and down if he chumpily, knowingly approves of his wife’s sex with multiple other men and actively listens to the details of her dates. That just isn’t an attractive behavior in a man. She’ll start to dread sex with him and lose respect for him, what little she has left. If they really do still have sex, I’m guessing she’s imaging one of the other dudes during the act.

Miss Sunshine
Miss Sunshine
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

100% agree, Buddy.

Another reason it’s foolish for a chumped male to stay to “work it out.” It doesn’t work. What man wants to be in a relationship where he is not respected?

If they do have sex, you can believe that she’s manipulating him for some sort of financial or other security gain.

SeeTheLight
SeeTheLight
8 years ago
Reply to  Buddy

True. If you are so disengaged from your husband, that you can have sex with other men, I can’t help but think that there is some comparison shopping going on. Like, why make time for mediocre hubby-sex when I can have a stupendous quality orgasm with OM? What’s left in your marriage but the occasional pity fuck, birthday sex, and anniversary sex? Whoopee!

JC
JC
8 years ago

Ah yes, the “let’s have an open marriage” approach:

I agree that actually talking about having an open marriage BEFORE having an open marriage is better than simply cheating.

However, as someone who was asked for an open marriage approximately 8 years into our relationship, that modicum of respect didn’t change the basic problem, which is: How do you respond to a spouse who asks for an open marriage? If you say you don’t want one, you are stifling their “aliveness” and further viewed as sexless. If you actually explore the possibility of something you never in your life wanted, then you are not true to yourself and your values, and likely dying in the thought of giving “permission” to your spouse to f*** other people.

I did the former. True to the unoriginal nature of cheaters, my wife also tried to frame her desire for an open marriage as sophistication, mocking me to her friends as someone who “couldn’t think” about something like that. She mocked me as “traditional” and “Catholic” (I am neither of these things, but my wife thought this would qualify as name-calling to make me feel guilty about being uptight.) She talked about “traditional husbands” and “traditional marriage,” which suddenly wasn’t for her anymore, not that she was servicing her coworker every chance she got.

She mentioned something about the reputation of the City we live in as freer/more open to alternative lifestyles. Whatever. Since I was 18 years old, I’ve only lived in some of the most liberal cities in the country. And yet I have a total of ZERO swingers in my social circles, and can really only say I knowingly met one such couple.

I sat with with my wife and had several calm, rational discussions about why I don’t want an open marriage, and if she wanted that lifestyle then she should have it with a different husband. Looking back, I was TOO calm and rational about this, and should not have even engaged in such conversations at all. There’s a fine line between being patiently understanding and being a chump…and I was a chump.

As I’ve said before, if your spouse is “asking” you for an open marriage, chances are VERY likely that you already have one…you just didn’t know it. It’s the cheater’s attempt to get retroactive permission for past transgressions. My intuition told me this…and it was born out as time went by and my wife couldn’t drop the subject.

Strange to think about. My wife’s AP ended up getting married 5 months after I filed for divorce. His marriage lasted only a few months, as he was cheating the entire time (with my wife or with someone else, I don’t know). Even that guy (we can’t call him a “man,” after all) who regularly bedded my wife and cheated on his own wife–realized that he couldn’t ask for an open marriage. But my wife decided to give it a try.

Well, now my wife is free to bang whomever she wants. She was able to obtain the “open” part…only having to lose the “marriage” part to get it.

Rumblekitty
Rumblekitty
8 years ago
Reply to  JC

If you say you don’t want one, you are stifling their “aliveness” and further viewed as sexless. If you actually explore the possibility of something you never in your life wanted, then you are not true to yourself and your values, and likely dying in the thought of giving “permission” to your spouse to f*** other people.

Perfect post JC.

YoungChump
YoungChump
8 years ago

Pssh. I am yet to meet someone who wanted to sleep with other people in their marriage and wanted to be open about it. Friend of mine recently got married and said he wanted to sleep with other people.
Me: Well why didn’t you discuss this with your wife before you married her? Put it all on the table. Him: She’d never agree to it
Me: That’s her choice. And what if she did? She might surprise you.
Him: Well if she knows and I know she’s doing it also it’s not fun anymore. It takes out the fun from it.
Me: (using my UBT sharpened by Chump Lady) So basically you’re saying what’s fun is deceiving her and getting one over on her?
Him: When you say it like that it sounds bad.
Me: That’s because it is.
Him: You’re just young and naive. I used to think like you too when I was your age (Context: I’m in my early 20’s most of my friends are late 20’s early 30’s. He’s early 30’s)
Me: It’s got nothing to do with being naive. Just because you sold out and compromised on your values doesn’t mean I will.
HHim: When you get to my age, you’ll change your mind.
Me: No I wont.
????
The second guy was a guy I fancied years ago who wasn’t married. On our first (and last) date he said men and women are not the same so we should have different rules. ??? Then he gave me the whole monogamy is not natural speech and said he would be ‘respectful’ and make sure his wife never finds out that he’s sleeping around. He was all convinced monogamy was simply not natural until..
Me: So if you’re not gonna be faithful to your wife can she also sleep around?
Him: No of course not.
Me: Well why not?
Him: Because she just can’t. And I’d better not find out.

Life lesson: Whenever men want different standards for themselves and different ones for their woman? RUN!

And when people get into a marriage and then suggest polyamory or whatever I still call bullshit. You should have discussed that BEFORE the marriage so they knew what they were getting into. Saying it that AFTER the marriage to me is deceitful. Plus if they’re suggesting it maybe they already have someone in mind/have started emotionally cheating anyway. In my culture sadly men are allowed to marry more than one woman (but of course the women can’t) and often they don’t tell the first wife before they marry her they will marry more than one woman eventually. Some of them don’t even tell her when they are planning the wedding to the 2nd! And that’s in a society where it is ACCEPTED. So it’s not about the rules some people just wanna deceive and dupe.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  YoungChump

Now that is patriarchy at work within a culture Young Chump. But don’t expect many to realize it and certainly Arnold won’t agree.

Young Chump
Young Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

The patriarchy is strong within my culture. People don’t even see it as wrong. They side eye YOU when you point out that these double standards are wrong and look at you like you’re the crazy one. Abuse thrives a lot. And again its not even seen as abuse. And if you point it out you’re the bad one. That’s why I had to get away.

Datdamwuf