UBT: There Is No Right or Wrong in the World
Dear Chump Lady,
I am well on my way to meh after divorcing and dealing with texbook cheater speak for the last 5 years. The other day though, cheater spoke to our teens telling them out front that there is no right or wrong in the world. It’s just their perceptions.
Now, most of what he has said in the past lines up 100% with the stupid stuff cheaters say, but this one really got under the kids’s skin and even I am a little dumbfounded how to deal with this kind of bullshit.
Maybe the UBT can help.
Regards
Heartchump
P.S. I have a schnauzer and I scrapbook.
Dear Heartchump,
Way to gain a life there with the schnauzer and scrapbooking. 🙂 As for your cheater, “There is no right and wrong in the world — there is only your perception” is classic Stupid Shit Cheaters Say. In fact, now that you mention it, I should devote a whole chapter in another book to it. We call this phenomenon “situational truth.”
If you’re disordered, and life is a big con game, there is no truth except the “truth” you are presently in. New surroundings? Different people? Different truth. Should your worlds collide and you need cover? Don’t blame yourself — blame reality! This is the nexus of the famous Richard Pryor joke: “Who you gonna believe? Me or your lying eyes?”
“There is no right and wrong in the world, there is only your perception” is also a form of projection. That’s how sociopaths see things. There’s this stuff you “moral” people deem right and wrong, but really what you do in any given situation comes down to unbridled self-interest (i.e., your perception).
Here’s an example. It baffled me how my cheater could gaze into my eyes, tell me he loved me, seem utterly sincere, walk out the door, and then call his OW. (I saw the cell phone records. It was truly shocking the constant contact. Marriage counseling appointment? Two seconds later — OW call. Date night and sex with the wife? Two seconds later — OW call. You guys know the drill.)
How could someone do this? Sociopathy and situational truth. In that moment, because he’s a millimeter deep, he “loves” me, but then SQUIRREL! his attention redirects and he “loves” the OW. It’s all kibbles and one kibble is as good as the next kibble. The point is more kibbles. And the power trip high of deceit.
His love isn’t fixed. His commitment is an illusion. Ergo, so is his “truth.”
“There is no right and wrong in the world, there is only your perception” is also a nice bit of gaslighting. Pay no attention to “truth.” There is just your truth and my truth and (my cheater loved to say this) “the truth is somewhere in the middle.” False equivalency! Minimization!
No, motherfucker — there is the TRUTH, and there are untruths, otherwise known as falsehoods. Aka, LIES. Whoppers. Bullshit.
Speaking of bullshit, the Universal Bullshit Translator has a suggestion.
Someone needs to mug your ex. Steal his wallet. Pistol whip him. Leave him for dead. And kick him in the kidneys for good measure.
As he’s lying there suffering, and the Good Samaritan walks by, and cheater wants to call the cops? Samaritan says, “You weren’t mugged. That’s just your perception of events.” And leave him.
See how quickly he becomes a reality convert.
Response: Just because you lack a moral compass doesn’t mean North and South are nonexistent. That is just a lie you say to make yourself feel better for being completely morally off corse and lost.
Mine always says and told our son, everyone has their stuff to deal with.
He says them same to me, as it’s suppose to make it ok, better?
So well said DM. and thank you Chumplady for hitting it on the head.
Love this! Visualizing the accompanying cartoon of cheater consulting his “map of life” while unmarked compass needle spins wildly
I believe the compass needle always points to the cheater’s nether regions… That seems to be the driving factor in their life decisions.
So true! This is what a typical cheater nether regions compass looks like:
N – Nutsack
S – Semen
E – Erection
W – Wankjob
Lol!!!
Adjecent to this idea of “situational truth” is where KK’s favorite justification tool — compartmentalization — comes in.
“I’m able to compartmentalize my life — what I do over here has nothing to do with, and has no impact on, what I do over there.” The perfect setup for practicing and justifying situational truth.
That explains the blank stares on stupid faces that we Chumps get when the walls are shattered and they’re forced to deal with the consequences of the ACTUAL truth of their words and actions.
This column hit a nerve with me today. Compartmentalization – check. Haggar the Whoreable would say that he didn’t get emotional as he was able to compartmentalize. Gag!
Situational Truth aka Situational Ethics – check! Didn’t know really what that meant until after Dday and realizing that Ankles had been a part of our lives for our entire relationship.
Moral Gymnastics – I have come to realize that this moral compass headed due south (pun intended) and he considered his “magnificent tool” (yes, these really were his words) the ultimate divining rod. I want to throw up.
As for being able to say one thing and in the next say something to the OW – Yep, got that. Valentines Day will never be the same as he was yelling at me that it was unfair that I bought him a Valentines Day gift and he stopped at the local grocery store for a stuffed elephant. Immediately hung up and went back to talking to the BDSM Broad and texting her (yep, have the proof) and the winner went to texting Ankles about where the nearest sex toy store was and 2 minutes later texting me that he missed me and loved me.
Moral compass, these fucktards don’t have one. The truth is whatever they want it to be at the moment. Even changing events to fit their version. Example, years later telling me he was holding a grudge about something that was said years before. Part of that “I’m not happy” speech. Really, its that familiar isn’t nervy enough…..its the thrill of the kibbles, cake and strange. I will never understand them and I am glad as if I could it means that my mind could do the gymnastics and I don’t want to ever be that flexible. NEVER.
Meh is a much better place.
It makes my head hurt, and I regret the few months I thought I could rationally reason with my ex wife. It was like driving in a snow storm with bald tires.
Why is compartmentalizing an excuse? That is creepy-assed sociopathic shit to pull to literally be different people in parallel situations. My ex had to do that to keep a 5 year on again off again affair going on, and the fact that she could pull it off is just proof that she has no soul.
I discovered her affair by hacking her email, so I read affair emails composed while our kids and I were sitting in the same room with her. Some kind of reptilian level stuff.
Here is the real logical disconnect to me: she is still together with her AP, in fact he had been cheating too. I’d call that a committed, monogamous relationship, do they trust each other? There is some interesting mental and moral gymnastics and amnesia going on… and yes, cheaters are all the same.
I went thru the same shit you did, CotW, with my ex. He sat across from me on his laptop in a chatroom with his AP having entire conversations about what they were “going to do to one another” when they’d get together. [Shudder…] I’d go to bed, tired of being ignored again for another entire evening, and he’d spend the rest of the night into the wee hours of the morning online exposing himself to other lonely men! I discovered this by loading a keystroke/screen shot capture program on his laptop since I was the administrator of all our computers. Especially after the pile of BS he shoveled on me about why he was filing for divorce…it just didn’t add up!
I was completely disgusted and appalled by his behavior, just as I thought any normal, decent person would be?! Apparently “The Downgrade” OW thought it was cute & funny?!? WTF? I guess now I know who inspired him to start looking at these porn websites! Yeah, she’s a real scuzzy catch! STD CENTRAL!
They’re still together 7 years later and she’s more than welcome to him! I should really thank her. I’m grateful she’s taken him off my hands, as he’s truly a broken, sick and morally bankrupt individual and I want nothing more to do with him at all. As much as he wants to deny it, he has turned out to be EXACTLY like his father…the 85+ YO man who chases after and fucks anything in a skirt from 10 YO all the way up through dead!!! EWWWW!!!
I’m so much happier living by myself and enjoying life with my loving friends and family, than to even think about dealing with his corrupt behavior and lack of moral compass. Frankly I don’t miss him, the blame he tosses my way, or all the drama he generates! BUH-BYE, ASSFACE!
CotW, I know you will find your happiness once you dump that morally bankrupt bitch and can move past the hurt and pain, and make your way into the wonderful land of MEH! I hope we see you there soon!!! ?
On DDay, he was at a loss for words as to WHY he was cheating.
Later he told me he researched it on the internet and he discovered it was compartmentalization.
So the cheating was in one compartment of his life and our marriage was not affected as it was in another!
I have no problem with their compartmentalizing. My objection is to their lying. But once I know someone is capable of that kind of compartmentalizing, I choose not to have anything to do with them.
Karen, I get this.
How great that you can put people in their tidy little boxes, but certainly moving from one box to the next cause memory loss?
“Hi, I’m Dory…”
I kind of like the box theory. He can put all his shit in a box and haul it out. Don’t come back.
My new nickname for my stbxh……Dory…..fuckwit doesn’t cut it around the kids
^doesnt
Then there is the overlap when he leaves you a message, “Love you (insert nickname)” with sincerity. Then the whore uses it to taunt you in person. Mask off, mask on.
Exactly what i heard from mine: “I’m able to compartmentalize my life — what I do over here has nothing to do with, and has no impact on, what I do over there.”
I got the compartmentalisation explanation too. And CL, mine did exactly the same as yours – told me he loved me, and then contacted his many OW (there was a revolving selection from Ashley Madison, Illicit Encounters and AFF) minutes later. His Whatsapp records showed that he was sometimes texting me and them virtually simultaneously – and the loving messages he sent me seemed completely heartfelt. I still struggle to understand it. I never will. But your explanation today has saved my brain from short circuiting while trying. Thank you!!
Same here regarding my cheater professing his love for me and simultaneously pursuing other women. My STBX is already on match.com, but he keeps texting me saying that he loves me, that he will change, and that wants to work it out.
His match profile shows a “Divorced” status, although we haven’t officially even filed. Then, there is a mandatory waiting period before we are divorced. So….
1. He is lying to me saying he wants to work it out and not get divorced.
2. He is lying to the women he is meeting on match.com by telling them he is divorced when he won’t be divorced until some time in the spring.
I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea that someone is capable of being such a liar. Thank heaven for CL and CN!
Uggg. Mine too. He was working out of state in West Virginia to earn enough money to pay off a big medical bill we’d gotten as a result of my hospital stay during my high risk pregnancy with our son. I’d text him that he was such a good provider and husband, and that I couldn’t wait for him to come home. He’d tell me ‘you’re the best wife and mommy ever! Thank you for taking care of the babies until I can come home to you!’ Love notes and inside jokes all day, every day he was gone. He was simultaneously telling the stripper giving him a lap dance that he and his wife were separated.
He came back to town only long enough to sleep with me (no parting gifts from that, thank God), plop his baby on his knee to text the skank love letters the entire time he was home, and then 2 weeks later walked out on me and our new babies to move there and marry said skank (who later accidentally on purpose got pregnant). It’s been 3 years, and I still marvel at the balls that it takes to carry on a double life like that, not only while away, but also so brazenly when he came home. When he left us with no warning whatsoever, his father had the balls to say to me ‘I don’t feel sorry for either of you. You two had communication problems in your marriage.’ Yep. That sort of happens when you’re married to a pathological liar who can’t utter a single word of truth day or night for YEARS.
Apparently, sociopathic family-abandoning asshats are MADE by victim-blaming sociopathic douche-canoes.
Regardless of the marriage issues nobody deserves to be lied to and cheated on. Except the cheater! Hopefully the karma bus will come mow him down! You know your a-hole ex told some wild ridiculous victim blaming story to his family to justify what he did.
I made plans for an amazing valentines night and when fuckwit picked me up he was on the phone. That am he left for work hug, kiss, I love you then squirrel. Was a complete prick to me that night. Abusive prick. Forward 2 weeks and seen on cell records he was talking to the ow to the very second he picked me up. 23 years of squirrel. Not any more.
Yup. I’m sure we’ve all had it. I got my first off-farm job in 17 years, and every single morning, I ensured I gave him a truly passionate kiss goodbye as I left for the office – we had worked side by side for all of those years on farm, true partners, and we both loved it, worked brilliantly and happily together. He kissed back, and always said it was his favourite part of the day. After D-day, when I finally thought to look at the phone records (hey, I was blindsided, never had any reason to play marriage police, or so I thought, we were still so in love more than two decades later) and I saw that within five minutes of me leaving the house, EVERY morning, he would be texting her, my lips still stinging, his still tasting of me. I felt like the fluffer, the warm up act. Ewwwwww!!! Worse was when the OW was texting ME, too, all at the same time – my “friend” – and I later realised that I was part of her game – an exciting game of triangulation, whereby she got to play with her prey until the game ends, hopefully where the stupid little woman gets fucked over, and she gets to keep all the “winnings” (assets, top class cheater – awesome prize! – only one previous owner, yaddah, yaddah) bugger, she got none of the above, and we both lost as well. Fun game, huh?
I clearly remember sitting with X on the deck planning to visit our grandchildren. He was texting during the conversation. After dday when I checked his phone it turns out he was sexting ow during our conversation. Seriously fucked up. No guilt or sense of how wrong that was.
NewDayDawning,
It’s because they are sick! That’s the only explanation I can stomach. Like yours, my serial cheater could “multi compartmentalize.”
On New Year’s Eve we had King Crab Leg dinner at home with adult son, wife and 3 grandchildren (youngest a new precious baby 2 weeks old). I of course planned, invited, shopped for, set beautiful table, cooked, served and had party hats, noise makers and decorations to complete a lovely evening with our family. I was an Executive Chef so he never had to cook a meal. He said he was lucky to have such a great wife.
After dinner while relaxing in living room (not that he needed to relax…the only thing he did all day was go to the club for 4 hours to work out and clean up “wink wink”).
Our daughter-in-law was breast feeding baby on couch. Cheater, while participating in family conversation, was responding to back page escort/massage ads on phone at exactly the same time.
On DD (13 months ago now…divorce just finalized), I asked him how he could compartmentalize like that. He said, while looking me in the eye after 35 years together, “it’s just something I’ve always been good at.”He then asked me, “what are you, the moral police?” It’s as if they are proud of their deceit and compartment abilities.
They are sick individuals with no moral compasses. There have empty shafts where souls should be.
I compartmentalized him into my garbage bin of life with no contact (almost 1 year now).
He is now living with one of his “happy ending” massage parlor whores, younger than our son, in a small rental ordering crappy take out food and paying me half his income. Not the sugar daddy grandpa man she thought he was. How’s that special compartment talent and your charm working out now?
So great to be cheater free!!!!
Good for you Free Now! Mine also is now living in a studio apartment and the OW sperm jacked him and told him she was pregnant two weeks after they broke up. His biggest fear/worst nightmare was having kids. Right before I found out about the affair, he wouldn’t even have sex with me without a condom because he didn’t want me to get pregnant. So thankful he did that and that we never had children together. His dreams of freedom and bachelorhood have completely vanished and I am sitting back laughing hysterically. Plus the OW is bat shit crazy. Welcome to the reality of your consequences asshole. It’s amazing how these guys can compartmentalize, but I think it eventually catches up to them. So thankful for chump lady, who speaks the truth and helps us understand how cheaters could appear so loving and kind to their spouse, yet be completely duplicitous and heartless sociopaths. At first, it is completely confusing, but I’m glad we both are free now!! Cheers to making delicious food for your family and friends who truly love and appreciate you.
Newday, it’s convenient for them to disrespect us, that way all the slimy things they do, with us sitting right there, are no cause for concern! Showing me disrespect was a constant in our house during the last couple of years we lived together. If he established that I was lame, and uncool, not evolved like his cool swingin AP, he could walk all over me and laugh about it. I don’t accept any of that shit now, but at the time it really hurt!
“I am not leaving your ass. It’s just your perception, fuckwit!”
Hahahaha! Love this!
I was just thinking about this last night! The first time I heard my ex use the word “perception” was way over ten years ago. Long story short. My ex was talking on the phone with my brother. The subject matter had to do with stuff that happened between my brother and I when we were really young. My brother pretty much says most of what I remembered “didn’t happen” as much as I was saying. And my ex said to my brother, “That’s Martha’s perception on what happened.” No, it wasn’t my perception. It was the truth! I’m not a liar. But once again what was done to me was minimalized.
There’s something to do with this no right or wrong in The Divorce Letter. My ex said I had “black and white” thinking. He likes to look at things more gray. Some day I’m going to submit The Divorce letter to the UBT. That thing is so fricken long and so full of mindfxcks! I’m afraid it will kill the UBT!
Martha,
Reading your post and the many other comments I’m stunned. Shortly after D-day my X told me that she “didn’t intend on this happening”, and (wait) that she was “grey”. I couldn’t believe it. Who wants to be grey. Shorthand for I have no morals except those that I want to apply to my benefit at the moment of my choosing. As always a moving target. CN has been so helpful as I go through this nightmare. It really is like they have a script that they pass around. They don’t, they are just cut from the same cloth. WOW!
Yeah, I Can’t Believe. I didn’t understand at first his comment about me being “black and white” and him being “grey.” He made it sound like me black and white was a bad thing. He made him being grey sound superior and right. I now realize my black and white thinking is a good thing! It’s my morals and values! He even went so far in the Divorce Letter saying “we have different values.” I was like WHAT?!! I thought our entire marriage we had the same values. We go to church together. We read the same Bible. But he has different values than me. Wow! Who would have known?
ICan’tBelieve–my X said the same thing, I told him I would never have moved halfway across the country, and given up a tenured job if I had known he was going to have an affair years after we moved. He said, “I didn’t intend for it to happen,” My response, “yes, but it was under your control.”
You know, Tempest, I think “I didn’t intend for it to happen” is actually just a lie. We don’t “intend” for a tornado to tear up our town or to catch the flu even though we got a flu shot. We don’t intend for an unexpected car repair to chew up our vacation fund or for a decision to change jobs for a move upward to end up in a layoff when the company has money problems. Those are things largely out of our control.
By definition, everyone who begins an affair “intends” it. For example, a few weeks ago, I noticed that a man I see at school events was paying attention to me in a new way. At that point, I had a decision to either keep my professional distance or match his new interest, in spite of the fact that I’m “seeing” someone. For me, that decision is a no-brainer. I’m not committed to this dating relationship in a permanent way, but if I want to be interested in other people, he’s going to be the first to know so he can make his own decisions. Even the first step toward a relationship that will betray a dating or marital partner is a decision and requires “intent.” I’d UBT “I didn’t intend for it to happen” as “I didn’t intend [for you to find out] or [for you to find out before I looted our finances]. Or maybe “I didn’t intend for me to feel any consequences.” The “it” is undefined. They expect the chump to think they mean the affair, but the affair couldn’t happen without intention.
You are right, as usual, LAJ. It was cheaterspeak (and I’m pretty sure he “intended” to bed the student as he continued to try and seduce students, sometimes successfully and sometimes not, for most of the marriage).
Yes, it is under their control. I controlled myself.
I threw the bullshit explanation she gave me (in the guise of an apology) into the trash almost immediately after I read it. It was such self-justifying, blame-shifting garbage, it wasn’t ever going to do me any good. I knew that was one artifact from our relationship that I had no interest in hanging on to.
So many artifacts to toss. The day the 16 x 20 wedding day portrait went to the trash was a good one … it was too big for the bin and was just sort of shoved in diagonal … all the neighbors out walking their dogs “got the memo” on our household!! They knew before HE did! ha ha
This reminds me of the Waiting to Exhale movie where wife epically loses it and takes all cheaters shit and puts it in the vehicle in their driveway and lights it on fire. Knock on the door – fireman you can only burn trash in your yard. Her reply: it is trash and then she closes the door. I can visualize your wedding portrait and “memo” to the whole neighborhood sitting in the trash outside for everyone to see. Love when people in the neighborhood take out the trash ? Well done!!
Love that image of the diagonal wedding picture in the trash bin, Dixie! And I mentally picture you dusting your hands as you walk away, then smiling at the on-lookers.
Mornin’ y’all! Beautiful day today, isn’t it?!
I scratched our wedding name off the Bible. He got rid of it when I wasn’t around and replaced it with a new one with our names on it. I just moved it from the coffee table down to the lower shelf. Not a word was said by him. Having a wedding pictures burning party with my friends soon.
Am I warped that I find that funny?! Because it really does make me laugh! Sorry-assed fucker!
I burned our wedding portrait in the fire pit on D-day along with my wedding dress. I wasn’t waiting for his lame excuses and blameshifting to talk me out of it. I was crying and smiling at the same time -while I was watching it burn!
Oh! Totally planning the wedding dress burn this spring. Wonder if there will be screams and demonically dancing flames. OooOooOoo ??
That sounds fun, but I like to sew, so I’m thinking of ripping mine up and making it into something cool that I can wear with the necklace I’m going to make from the stones in my wedding and engagement rings 🙂
ooh ooh–alternate wedding dress idea: Drip theatrical blood on it and go as Bride of Frankenstein for halloween. Fitting, dontcha think?
Well done!
When it came time to part with wedding shit, I threw my dress and everything that went along with it in the trash. Ex got emotional and fake teary that it was part of our history for our kids. Told him he should have thought of that and that our grandchildren would learn he was a fucking liar and cheater. Wedding photo album making you weepy, take the fucking thing. I don;t want any reminder of you.
Wish I would have burned it while sitting with a glass of wine.
I tossed all that wedding stuff in the garbage and even burned some of it on the back lawn. I tore the beautiful 8×10 photo of us that was in our living room for 20 years in half in front of my now ex and said to him, “This is what I think of our sham of a marriage.” He looked stunned. He said, “Martha, stop destroying stuff.” Hey, Cheater. Your days of controlling my life are over. If I want to destroy stuff, I will! I regret not torching the wedding album. I gave it to the Cheater. There is not one thing in my new home that reminds me of our wedding or our marriage. Even though he was the sperm donor, not even my kids remind me of him as I was pretty much a single parent their entire life even though I was married.
Oh shit, Dixie, I think that’s the funniest thing ever!I love it! More power to you, and thank you for continuing to grace our pages and brighten our days!
I got the “hopium is too black and white” bs from Durt also. SMH. There are truths and there are lies. I guess because there may have been a kernel of truth in his outrageous lies it landed them in the gray area.
Ha! In yesterday’s comments I wrote:
1. That it really is black and white. All or nothing. One way or the other. And that isn’t a bad thing.
STBX tried to say I was too judgmental and didn’t allow for shades of gray.
No, I have a strong moral compass that doesn’t allow you to weasel out of this.
Yeah, everything was gray when it came to his behavior. An example of a grain of truth in the ocean of lies: truth “I didn’t come home right away” lie “because I got pulled over by the cops and they said I couldn’t drive because of > and so I waited until the police left and had to wait a little longer to make sure they wouldn’t stop me again.”
The gray area was Bambi’s twat that time as I later pieced together.
Son has told me he is pondering a compass tattoo to remind him never to become like cheater boy. Sigh.
My daughter is debating the tattoo(s?) she’ll get once she turns 19, and ‘Acta non Verba’ is definitely near the top of the list right now!
Haha, that is a funny thing to *write* on yourself ?
Will hereafter think of the compass points in a whole new way, SCAL. ??
Also, “Acta non Verba” would be a very meaningful tat.
Karen, I remember years back when I had to get one of my tats covered. My now exwife’s name was on my arm. Yucchhh!!!
It read, “My love, Whorenocchio”.
I had it filled in before I divorced. This was a pivotal point in my recovery. I knew at that moment I never wanted to have anything to do with that whore ever again.
Thank you SCAL, ‘Whorenocchio’ just made me choke on an ice cube with laughter!! ???
The fact that he is even thinking about not being like cheater is great! How do you feel about the tattoo idea, mom?
Not a tat fan, but would live with it. Worse is that he now has this fear that it is somehow all genetic and he might do the same. No, son. That compass is in you.
ChumpionSAHM,
Here is your exes moral compass:
N – Nutsack
S – Skank
E – Erection
W – Whore
Here is your Son’s moral compass:
N – Nice
S – Soulful
E – Empathetic
W – Worthy
🙂
OMG- this cartoon sums up the story of my chumphood! AWESOME.
Yep.
I mean, yeah, each person does have his or her own perceptions which affect his or her definitions of what is real. If you have morals, if you value integrity and ethics, then you will also have a sense of right and wrong that grows from that reality. And, existentially speaking, those can differ among us without one having to be supremely right for everyone.
The thing about gaslighting is that it works because it contains enough truth to be convincing and the receiver has a conscience that the gaslighter can use to elicit belief that the message is entirely true because it seems plausible.
They don’t have to get you to believe it, they just have to get you to believe it’s plausible, then repeat it frequently so you encounter their revised reality often enough that it begins to feel normal compared to your other inputs.
That’s why NC is so effective — it rebalances your inputs so a reasonable number of each kind of input becomes the norm. The frequency of each kind of message normalizes based on a more common variety of viewpoints. Then you can more easily sort out the BS as BS.
Remove the faulty logic for the kids. The issue isn’t who is right and who is wrong. The issue is whose behavior is harmful, self-serving, irresponsible, dishonest, immature, imbalanced with other coinciding realities, etc.
It doesn’t matter that ethics are in the eye of the beholder. What matters is the the preponderance of the facts are not working in the gaslighter’s favor.
On top of that, they enjoy seeing you struggle pinning them down for the truth.
Diabolical, for sure.
Really appreciate you putting this into words Amii — saving this to my notebook.
Brilliant. Thank you!!
Ami, “They don’t have to get you to believe it, they just have to get you to believe it’s plausible,”
This is the basic rock of gaslighting and blameshifting. Simple, but diabolical.
Diabolical is right! Great word for it.
That’s why NC is so effective — it rebalances your inputs so a reasonable number of each kind of input becomes the norm. The frequency of each kind of message normalizes based on a more common variety of viewpoints. Then you can more easily sort out the BS as BS.
This!!!! That’s why I knew he wasn’t getting my new number, we only email
<3 you all! I just pass on what the therapists teach me. Thank the Lord for the good therapists! (Though you're not my personal therapist, this means you, too, Tempest!)
They’re cruel, manipulative, conniving, convincing liars. They carefully chose the right words to gain the result they want. Everything with them is done with an hidden agenda. They’re not capable of true human emotions. They take what they need and move on blaming us. Gas lighting is an insidious form of abuse.
Everything is fake with them
Saving this ❤
I have struggled to try and explain gaslighting to my family and this summed it up better than anything I have been able to find. Thank you, Amiisfree!
Excellently expressed, thanks.
Someone once commented, A hard dick has no conscience. That was ex in a nutshell. That and the fact that he got off on “the power trip high of deceit.” That was my marriage for who knows how long…. There he was, making decisions big and small that would negatively impact us, his family, yet he still showed up to fuck me. Good times. How the disordered justify living and their crap choices is beyond belief.
Hahaha! I remember my little old country mama telling me “A stiff prick has no conscience” when I was about 11 years old! She was right, too!
More women ought to teach this to their daughters!
Except that for a lot of men, their conscience isn’t overcome by their hard-on (and for some women, their genitals also rule their morals). In my mind, it’s much more a question of finding out which type of partner you are with, and making your choices based on that info.
I do not miss playing that game at all – and it IS a game to him. He’ll never admit to anything I don’t have concrete proof of, and after a year, I cannot wait to finally be divorced and rid of him. I pray that his OW sticks with him until then, at least, so I don’t have to deal with the fallout. I can completely block him from my life then. So please, Smoochie, don’t leave him again anytime soon. Help a sister out. Thanks! ??
We can start a “go fund me” campaign.
Kidding. But funny.
Reminds me of when I called my stbx – SIL and begged her to give my stbx some money, so she could afford to move out and get the hell away from me. Didn’t work, but it was worth it just the same.
Very funny! We need to laugh, or we’d cry ?
Yes. Please don’t leave him smoochiepie. I need you more than he will.
#saw: LMAO! You know the feeling? Please, I pray, hold on to dat Cray Cray
In the beginning, I used to spew my story a lot. But what got people in the end was when I said that I hoped that x and schmoopie would stay together forever and ever, that way there were at least 2 f*ed up people tied together that wouldn’t be out there f*ing up two other people.
I keep hoping and saying the same thing, Flutterby…and after 7 years and divorce ~almost~ final…they’re still together! Yay! So that totals 4 very fucked-up individuals making each other miserable every day. I’m sure there are others we may add to this list as well…
Maybe if we all prayed really hard all together:
Dear Almighty, we pray that you seal the Schmoopie-to-Assface attraction by permanently bonding their fates, lives and genitals together. Forever!!! Please grant us, the emotionally-raped chumps, this prayer so we may move forward into the land of MEH and live the normal, unfucked-up lives we were meant to have in peace, harmony, profound happiness, unbridled joy and grace in your awesome and loving presence. AMEN!! ?
No right or wrong = no accountability. Thus cheaters can absolve themselves of any connection to fallout from their betrayal
Conversely – normal people use “perception” to discern right from wrong and utilize said discernment to live with integrity
Ah this is SO familiar! Take our 12th anniversary:
One hand: He is between contracts, so he can’t afford to give me the usual gift card, but he’ll make it up to me. (Not!)
Other hand: He CAN afford to buy a $90 Adult Fuck Finder membership for himself on the exact date of our 12th anniversary, as I found out a few days later while paying bills out of that account.
Ugh, what a tool! I hardly ever got gifts either, because he was “so busy that I just didn’t have time”. Glad to be free of that selfish asshole.
Right and wrong never change, as far as I’m concerned. Normal people will get that creepy, disgusted feeling with themselves when they do wrong, even if they don’t consciously admit it in a conscious way.
About the “constant contact”, it’s abnormal I think. Maybe a byproduct of the brainwashing they gave themselves when they tried to act like fucking around on your marriage isn’t wrong.
I monitored ex husband for a while during our Wreckconciliaton. One of the most hurtful things was one day he was working on his car. I had been hanging with him outside, talking, bringing stuff, commiserating on his horrible luck having to work on his car. He had to leave to go to work that afternoon, and per phone records, he was on the phone with the whore when he left, probably before he reached the end of our street. Jerk. We had gotten along so well that day, and it was a slap in the face what he did.
“Right and wrong never change, as far as I’m concerned. Normal people will get that creepy, disgusted feeling with themselves when they do wrong, even if they don’t consciously admit it in a conscious way.”
I’ve often said this to coworkers who seem to be struggling, that sometimes I *KNOW* what is the right thing to do (call a client with bad news, admit to a mistake I made about something, apologize for an oversight, etc.) because it is the thing I least WANT to do, the thing I wish someone else would do for me or (in a petulant way) wish would just go away! But I’m an adult so I have to admit to my mistakes and take whatever punishment comes with that.
Right & wrong. You can just feel it.
NWB,
Unfortunately, my co-workers do not struggle, they just don’t think like that. I think I work in a den of narcs.
“But I’m an adult so I have to admit to my mistakes and take whatever punishment comes with that.” Nah you can just ignore that punishment by not saying anything and letting things “work” themselves out. Silence is golden for a narc.
“Right & wrong. You can just feel it.” But only if you have a moral compass. If you care about others, and have an intact set of ethics.
Some people can’t. Some people feel it a little, but let what they want override it.
Peace.
aeronaut
Anita.
Yes this. I had a conversation with mine yesterday and I said how I just can’t believe you did this and yet you are still saying you loved me the whole time, loved our family, was working abroad for us. From the garbage that came out I gather that it should not be a ‘big deal’ what he has done as the women he slept with ‘meant nothing’.
My mind almost seized up at this point but I said ‘what about OW#3 you really had fun with her taking her on holiday etc’. He said that sometimes she didn’t get what he was saying and he had to ignore things she said that were stupid so they had to ‘work’ at getting along. Not like us apparently who are soulmates.
I don’t know what I thought then as my brain did seize up.
My brain just did, too. I so much feel for you, Cap. His presence around you incinuates conversations because you still want answers, you want to understand. But their grey truth is just as is: these women don’t mean anything and they can compartmentalise. Until some of these women become soulmates and start meaning and the cheaters leave. There is no way to win. Just exit the game. Started counting down for you.
My brain seizes up just READING this, Cap! — They’re just never happy or satisfied. Life is so DIFFICULT for them. “I like THIS woman because of A, B & C, and this OTHER one because of L, M, and N, but I just can’t seem to find a PERFECT woman who has ALL the thing I need!” Poor sad sausages. (gag)
The devaluation is so key to them, because then they feel superior, like some kind of ‘ruler’ picking out their harem, GAG!
Oh, FreeWoman, you’re right! They need the ‘perfect’ android with no needs, and one that correctly imitates looking humiliated and hurt! So they can enjoy the devalue and their feeling of superiority. But then the android goes back to treating them like royalty, and fulfilling all the cheater’s needs.
Anybody see a market for this? Because it would get some cheaters out of the dating/marriage market, which would be a good thing!
And if there was a market for this and some enterprising chump or chump group made said android, we could finance a lot of divorces and make lots of chumps happy, since there are so many of us in CN, there has to be a ton of $ to be made off of smug cheaters.
They want to find the PERFECT partner who has and GIVES all the things they need or want, AND who requires and asks for absolutely nothing from them.
Good luck there. I’m sure soon you’ll be able to buy an android that fits the bill.
I told mine he better invest in a blowup doll, that’s the only perfect woman he will ever meet…………………..
I offered mine my son’s parrot as a wife. Sits all day in the cage and would not mind his fucking around. And more importantly, would not tire him with constant frustrated talks.
The lot of them really are full of shit aren’t they!
I cannot wait until he is gone, Cap.
Stay strong. We’re here for you.
8.5 days……….
It’s now on my calendar!!! Looks like there’s a mardis gras parade scheduled to celebrate the occasion!
I can’t wait. What an idiot I am but thank goodness it will be over soon and I can breathe again. And I have been able to see dysfunction up close. And ask it questions. Anybody want me to ask him anything in particular about cheating??
I have my own list I’m working through but happy to add others!
Crazy times.
Thanks all for not judging me too much for being an idiot letting him stay and hanging in there while I repented at leisure.
Never has four weeks felt more like four years. ?
You are not an idiot. You are doing your best to deal with a difficult situation. Some people can make a clean break of it, some can’t. That is just reality.
What are you going to do to celebrate when he is gone? How are you taking care of yourself in the meantime? A friend just got me some essential oils, and I think they are lovely.
3 hours, 12 minutes, and 26 seconds….
Cheater’s famous line when he tried to come back (once again) after cheating and asked why he cheated, “I thought it was the right thing to do at that time.” See, it’s all relative? The truth to cheaters is a moving target, always a-changing. As long as it suits their needs? It’s the “truth”. What the heck can one expect from liars?
He thought he was doing the “right thing” not the wrong thing at the time. Do they ever do anything wrong?
I like the way they word things, he was just a good guy doing what he thought was right at the time.
A man of integrity.
“Clubbing baby seals–nothing wrong with that! It’s how you look at it!”
“Boko Haram kidnapping 14 year olds to be sold into marriage–no problem; those girls would have been married within years anyway!”
“Rescuing toddlers from burning buildings–that’s not really a “good” thing; it’s that you perceive it as good.”
“Shutting down abusive puppy mills–it’s what some people do. Neither good nor bad.”
Refuting that stupid argument that there is no good nor bad, just perceptions, is like shooting fish in a barrel. (Which, by the way, is bad. Don’t do that.)
***Puts down elephant gun. Wait what?
Dub, no ivory for you, OK!!!!!!!
Elephant gun? It’s easier with hand grenades.
Haha Dub! Funny!
Hahahahahaha!
? ❤
???
Thank you Tracey. May all of chump nation laugh through this day as we imagine our freshly mugged cheaters inert, ignored and uncomprehending as passersby ignore them.
So ditto!
If you’re a parent, you absolutely need to correct and step in front of these lies and shit they spout – if you don’t, it will absolutely impact their adult lives. I work in a heavily regulated industry and one of my responsibilities is hiring Interns from college. I just had to take away one of their summer job offers because he had misdemeanors for shoplifting and a fake ID. Our kids are growing up in a WAY tougher world than we did. It’s the age of the Internet – everything is tracked and recorded. They need to learn quickly that most of the country doesn’t traffic in “alternative facts” and that there absolutely IS right vs wrong and they’ll be judged and held accountable accordingly.
One of my worst fears, I can only hope at that what I’ve instilled in hm when he was younger will eventually over ride his father’s negative influence.
My proudest moment was when my youngest, 18 year old son, said:
……Mom, I know that with Dad off in an apartment with no real responsibilities, and all three of his adult children still talking to him – you must feel he hasn’t been punished enough. But we know and we appreciate what you’ve done for us by not saying bad things him. He sucks but he’s the only Dad we have.
TiredChump – you should be so proud of your son! He sounds wise and lovely. You deserve that!!
Boo yah! You raised that boy right, despite his dad’s influence. Well done.
In a world where children are not allowed to lose a baseball game when they are growing up, because it might make them feel bad, I really don’t know how they can be expected to learn about accountability and consequences. This is the problem. We are no longer teaching them these lessons because “it might hurt their feelings.”
Yes, but usually the “trophy for everyone” is for LITTLE kids. My oldest is 10 and that stuff stopped a LONG time ago where everyone got a trophy. My older son truly sees now there are “winners and losers” in everything – no trophies for 2nd or 3rd place.
Little, little kids (like 5 and under), can’t yet grasp accountability, anyway. Only a bit. I am not necessarily bothered if every 4 year old in a gymnastics class gets a trophy. They’re 4, not much older than a toddler. I’m talking about tweens and teens, where their brains are starting to really mature as they move into adulthood, you can’t let Cheaters spout “alternative truths” and let the kids think, “oh, there’s two truths”, because most colleges and employers will see through that and won’t buy it.
If you live in a utopic area where every kid all the way up to 18 gets trophies for all sports and all classes, no matter how well you do or don’t do, then I’m jealous that you live in such a utopic area. If you’re on this site, then your kids have lived through the horror show that is a Cheater and The Disordered. They’ve learned plenty of tough life lessons that most kids never learn. I don’t begrudge them a trophy in baseball for 3rd place at the age of 15, if that’s the case.
Absolutely. And our opportunities to teach this are limited if they spend time with the cheater. I use every chance I get to point out things to my kids. Damage control all the time.
OMG, yes. And this is one of the things I resent the most. Somehow, I am supposed to walk them through this disaster with both morals and ability to love cheater boy intact. Flipping close to impossible. Dreading, already, coping with the wedding to slut. Can’t and won’t even attempt to normalize it, but openly criticizing has its own set of issues. Glad the kids are too old to be pressed into service as flower girl and ring bearer, but they will no doubt be expected to attend and participate in some fashion. No clue, really, how to manage that. Guess I’ll just have to let it play out and do my best to make the right calls in the moment. Being a person who at least strives to do the right thing often stinks.
I am right there with you, ChumpionSAHM. How to balance helping them navigate the immoral choices, lies, and manipulative behaviour with spending time with their dad sucks! If it was anyone else, as a responsible parent, I wouldn’t let my kid spend time with someone like this.
Get Me Free – As a responsible parent I wouldn’t let my kid spend time with someone like this.
Exactly!!
But I have to. And it sucks. My daughter’s friend’s parents don’t subject their kids or my daughter to the garbage her dad subjects her to. I hate it. I try to reason with him about what you put in your child’s mind….he thinks I’m a prude while he sends naked pictures of his gf to his buddies – because he is so awesome. (She’s after your money, stupid). He shows our daughter that women are objects to be used like a trophy while I stress homework and planning for the future…Stbx ridicules me for that. It sucks. They suck. And, yes, I know full well reasoning with the disordered is futile and can make you feel insane ‘cuz they are incapable. I hate this whole thing.
Exactly! On the deepest level, I think what would be best for them is never, ever to be exposed to him again. But, no can do. Incredibly frustrating.
Believe me, I am doing just that. I am telling them out right that HE IS DISORDERED AND THEY SHOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT BELIEVE the words he say. But the good news is they sees through his BS.
Aaaargh!!!! I hate the term “telling your truth”. Whatever happened to feeling THE truth?
The cheater’s “perceptions” could also be called “alternative facts”.
Bahahahaha. Excellent!
Yep.
I realise mine has no values and he never responded with empathy or real feeling to anything unless it was dramatic or negative, positive stuff didn’t hit his buttons, happy for someone no, could barely crack a smile.
To him everything was relative and people should do what makes them happy, he put on pseudo intellectual pretenses but was as deep as a puddle in reality, covert somatic narc out for himself always.
Pointing out facts and truths illicited mindfuckery and obfuscation, then anger and rage.
Day 12 grey rock, haven’t seen his face, was a good day my heart only ached when I woke up and I had little anxiety, felt pretty good for the most part.
Getting some energy back, going to sort my house and garden on the weekend and give my boys lots of love, my work sitch, well I am doing alright I think but have accepted what will be will be, if it ends I will find a way and new doors will open. I am like a cat and always land on my feet.
He moves into empty apartment tomorrow hope it feel nice and lonely for him.
Lady B, Cap and anyone, another book suggestion I have along with CL’s that helped me is “From Charm to Harm, and Everything in Between With a Narcissist.” by Gregory Zaffuto. He has a fb page, After narcissist abuse there’s light at the end of the tunnel. It was so hard for me to come acceptance of who he really is. I wanted to hold on to the fairy tale of the life I thought I had but never existed.
There’s days I felt like I could take on the world and I’d feel so strong and over X then suddenly there would be a trigger out of the blue that brought tears. More anger now than tears..
Lady B–you will feel a sense of relief when he is out of the house, and decreased anxiety, but the grief of mourning your marriage will hit sporadically for 2-3 years. Just make sure that you take teeny steps every day for self-care, and doing something you like. When those weak moments hit, you’ll recover more quickly if you’ve crafted a new life (even if it’s a small hobby–macrame, paint-by-numbers). And build a community–not just this fabulous on-line community, but scope out new people to establish friendships with. They will be a breath of fresh air, and will be the “something new” you need to claw your way out of the betrayal abyss. Hugs!
Keep on keeping on, Lady B! You are mighty!
Sending you strength and hugs, Lady B, you’re doing great!
“There is no right or wrong, there’s only-”
Me: [Punches him in the face]
“OW! What the hell?!”
Me: [shrugs]
Moral relativity only goes one way with these turd lumps.
Love that!
It felt like the Truth to you, didn’t it? That’s all that counts!
And he probably liked getting punched in the face too. Sick fuck.
It’s all kibbles! Plus the extra ‘I’m such a victim’ points …..
Great post! The SQUIRREL had me in belly laughing mode. Still wiping my eyes. Exactly how my puppies are! But they cant help it as they are how the universe made them. They are loyal, loving, and a constant source of entertainment. And a squirrel appearance is great fun. Maybe for the squirrel not so much. Canines in this lady chumps opinion truly are a girls best friend. Fuck those man and woman whores we get free and we gain lives.
Hah, I have 4 dogs who chase squirrels. They never catch them. In fact, the squirrels taunt the dogs; they will leap from a tree to the top of the garage roof and then sit there chittering at the dogs in a “na na na, you can’t catch me!” way. I suspect cheaters are re-incarnated as squirrels.
They DO spend a lot of time moving their nuts around…. 😉
Lol they sure do
LOL!
???❤
How’s your new spot, kar marie? Nice to see you, honey.
Me too, I have been thinking of you. How are you Kar Marie? Did you get moved?
Yes, moved just after thankgiving 2015. My house is great small like me. When i can find a decent job i will be well onto meh. I have good and bad days but im trying to fly high! And succeeding! Thank you for asking!
Missed your comment KM, screen was not updated. Good to hear you are away and on the road to Meh.
Thanks honey.
My new home is great! Winding my way through. A decent job is next and im on my way to meh slowly but surely and without that fucker anywhere near me!
The Worm often accused me of being “morally superior”. He would say it with extreme contempt, as if it was the worst thing in the world to behold. Yet with my morally superiority came extraordinary super powers which caused him to buy expensive gifts for another woman and dump a bucket of water over my head….
Mine accuses me both of thinking I’m morally superior, and also of thinking I’m perfect and never wrong. Wellllllllll, maybe not perfect or NEVER wrong! But SO much closer to that than he is!
(Besides, I know it’s projection and DARVO at work. Thank heavens I finally understand that!)
I got this bs after DDay. I was trying to wreckoncile so I was all “no, I’m not perfect…” and listed some of my flaws. Big mistake. He took those insecurities and used them against me, especially in MC. Now, I own my flaws. But I never speak to him about them and I never allow even a hint of criticism to go unchecked.
Got this, too. Drives them nuts, and they put a lot of energy into creating the “perception” that we are actually at fault.
For shame! How dare you treat me in a moral and ethical manner! When I want to shit all over you and not have to hear about it afterwards! ??
Once again I finish reading a Chump Lady post with that odd feeling of wanting to laugh and cry at the same time. I want to laugh because she nails it completely and with humour so I feel in my gut she absolutely gets it. And then I want to cry because it happened to me and it makes you hurt and it makes you crazy.
It does blow your mind to realise they can seem utterly sincere about loving you to your face and then be texting the other woman/man the next minute. Not normal is an understatement.
It blows your mind when they can do so much damage, damage that goes on for years and just shrug it off, just walk away.
Can I still be in shock six months later? It still feels like it is surreal at times. I am doing all the things I should be doing but it’s still shocking. I imagine that shock never quite goes away. It’s like being in buildings after the last one you were in collapsed after an earthquake, you never feel quite safe as something beyond your control happened. And could happen again. I know the buildings can be reinforced and strengthened but still. I suppose the key is to know that even if it did happen again you know you could survive it and as time passes you might relax more.
I guess I’m saying that once your trust has been comprehensively crushed by ‘your person’ who is so able to ‘fake’ themselves to you, you will never have the full measure of trust again to give to anyone else.
And after they have done all this THEY STILL DON’T GET IT. I suppose why would they. They didn’t care enough or were not wired right not to do it so having done it why would that change anything.
Not only do they steal the life you felt you had, the life you were looking forward to, the safety and security of your kids they steal your ability to trust completely again. The likelihood of betrayal seems higher to me now whereas before it seemed low. So I now have to rebuild a new life for myself whilst mourning the loss of the old one and help my kids do the same. I also need to fix my picker, develop new boundaries and find my joy. I need to get financial independence and learn how to trust wisely. While on my lunch break I can fix the Middle East and develop nuclear fusion. ?
Cap, I like this because it sums up what the cheater did, what someone that hasn’t gone through this agony, sometimes doesn’t understand.
“Not only do they steal the life you felt you had, the life you were looking forward to, the safety and security of your kids they steal your ability to trust completely again. The likelihood of betrayal seems higher to me now whereas before it seemed low. So I now have to rebuild a new life for myself whilst mourning the loss of the old one and help my kids do the same. I also need to fix my picker, develop new boundaries and find my joy. I need to get financial independence and learn how to trust wisely. While on my lunch break I can fix the Middle East and develop nuclear fusion.”
By the time you go through the devalue or abandonment or years of trying to fix everything wrong, you actually feel that fixing the Middle East and developing nuclear fusion is a piece of cake…….
Also, Capricorn, you’re in the situation of having to live with STBX and bear witness to his nonchalance and other disordered behaviors on a daily basis. It’s like staring too long at an Escher painting — it (he) just doesn’t make sense. He walks around LOOKING like your husband, and TALKING like your husband, but underneath that skin — in that skull — is just a writhing ball of worms (or something).
It will be better when he is at least out of the house. But I have to agree with Tempest that I, at least, will never be the same. The mask has slipped off the world and I have come to realize in a new and horrifying way, that living with someone cheek-by-jowl for decades does not insure against deception. — I think that’s one of the most shocking things to me: that I didn’t realize. After all that time, I never saw it until the end.
I digress (again). Also, you said this: “Not only do they steal the life you felt you had, the life you were looking forward to, the safety and security of your kids they steal your ability to trust completely again.” These are the things we will never have again, and I have come to regard them as an accident victim who loses a limb must come to accept that they may never run another marathon or play the violin again. Bad dumb luck.
The flip side is courage. I know I have it, so I hope that I can apply it — eventually — emotionally, and allow the next person (if there is one) the benefit of the doubt. I will be wary, of course, but I will also try to be like the lion tamer, keeping that beast of fear and avoidance at bay, lest it devour any hope I have of having a fulfilling life in the future. I am brave and have courage, and I am doing those push-ups and sit-ups even as we speak, so that I may stronger still when needed.
For me the hardest part is the loss of all that faith in humanity, trust, safety, security, etc. BUT I can’t accept it as an accident victim has to. I wish it was all a terrible tragedy. A car accident, a shark attack, a lightning strike, those would all be better than this. This was a targeted attack by the person I trusted above all others. I just feel so dead and empty and hurt and just fucking devastated after this. Tragedy is random and sad. Terrible shit happens to good people all the time, cancer, tornados, terrorism, war and people just happen to be unlucky. This was me living my life and then my person fucked me over. He made the choice and stole my life and future, safety, security, sense of worth and just DGAF. It was all him. Who cares about anything because my dick. My entire existence was worth less to the person I loved above all others, the person I chose as my life partner, than a cheap, dirty fuck with a cheap, dirty, scheming whore. The only slight vindication I have is that STBX is in therapy and says he thinks he’s fucked himself up so badly he’s not sure he can come back from it. He feels like an empty shell of a person, he can’t feel anymore. That makes me happy, but rather than both of us being ruined (or even just me, he brought this on himself) I would have preferred him to be a man and get his shit fixed. Working through marriage difficulties would have been bad enough, getting divorced would have been bad enough but this is just beyond! I’m so scared I can never trust again or that I will and then be broken down again or that I will never find someone I want to be with again, or no one will ever want to be with me again. I knew bad shit happened to decent people and life wasn’t fair but nobody warns you about how bad it can actually be.
Sad Shelby. There are times when I think about these things too – but the future is still unwritten. Who knew we would be fucked over like this?
But here’s the truth. We are still standing. Breathing. Alive. And we will heal through all of this. The scars and painful memory has forever changed us. I’d like to focus though on the positives – we have learned so much through this journey – probably not many people had been through what we’ve been and now we are armed with knowledge, experience and wisdom to stear clear from devil incarnates who walk among us. Hopefully we become pillars of strength to those who find themselves suffering as we have suffered.
To have lived, coped, and ultimately survived a narcissist is testament to the inner strength we have within us.
Hugs to you. We are all mighty!
Capricorn: It is true, you will never be the same after this. You go into surveillance about people’s characters in a way you never felt that you had to before. you will get GOOD at it; the FBI and MI5 should hire chumps for spy missions because we would rock them. You will be less tolerant of bullshit than ever before, and possibly quite vocal about it.
But you will also be more compassionate, more sensitive to nuance, more likely to say the right thing to someone who is anxious or sad or grieving.
Yes, it is still normal, I think, to be incredulous 6 months out. It requires 6 months of minimal, grey rock contact before you can fully accept that nothing you say will cause your STBX to have insight into what he has done to the family, how and why it is wrong, nor why you no longer think he is a good person. Once you accept that fact, deep in your bones, true healing begins. I have no expectation that I could make Hannibal Lecher understand the horror of his betrayal any more than wishing my Honda Element was a time machine will make it so.
All of these posts starting with Capricorn sums up the inner turmoil. There are consecutive days where I “get it”. He sucks and no amount of explanation will achieve any empathy from him or understanding for me. Then I have a couple days where I can’t help getting caught up in untangling. It sucks to lose your sense of trust and belief in the goodness of people.
Just know that the balance between the two feelings will continue to shift in your favor.
3 steps forward and 1 step back. It is not a straight line. Just do a check every few months and hopefully you will see that you are making forward progress.
GetMeFree
That’s exactly it! Some days I absolutely stay away from the skein and know in my heart I will never understand it I just have to accept it but a few days later I can find myself mindlessly scrambling to untangle the skein with a fury.
It sooooo reassuring to know I am not the only one.
Capricorn, I am very sure you and I are not the only ones. I am:
3 years and 3 months from Dday#1 (followed by wreckonciliation)
1 year and 2 months from him walking out (only to return 3 weeks later)
1 year from when I made him leave the house
11 months from Dday#2
8 months from going grey rock
2 months from filing
And I still struggle with it. Thankfully, those times are getting shorter and less frequent.
Cap, I love your humor! Choking
on my coffee with your last comment?
. . . Please, while you’re on lunch break, complete the global meteor-shield development as well! ???
Yes. To know that at times–including holidays, dinners out–he sat right next to me and/or kids and texted her is mind-blowing. But that is the truth. Terrible truth, but freeing.
This is what has bothered me the most. The time and dedication they put into the OW and their family was shoved to the back of the bus. The OW and cheater stole from my family. I can never forgive the cheater for this. The other thing that pisses me off is the aloofness I saw in his face whenever he was around. I realize now the aloofness was caused to him thinking of someone else. Screw Him!
1) Give it a year before you quit feeling quite so much like a deer in headlights. For awhile you can’t help looking back and going, WTF just happened?
2) After about a year, you turn around, face forward, and start to deal with the fallout. Then suddenly 3 years pass, and it seems like it was all a bad dream.
3) Keep coming back to CL for reality checks. I am no longer afraid at all to cut people loose from my life at the slightest inkling of their words and actions not seeming to match. No time for that bullshit anymore. Their shit to sort out, not mine. Moving right along…
Good list Dances, I just had an ex friend, an especially slick, very good at her game covert narc, put out feelers to try to reel me back in after a good three years of total NC. She ghosted after I gave her an honest opinion she didn’t like on something she asked me about. After trying to reach her for a couple of weeks, it started to dawn on me that the friendship was very lopsided….me doing all the giving. I had just found Chumplady and had started to connect the dots.
Guess she figured she could still extract something of value from me. She got …. crickets. As you said, no time for that bullshit anymore!
Dances, #3 is spot on.
I was sitting in my therapist’s office having a moment of clarity and said I finally truly get that he will never ever understand, never have empathy for the pain he caused and never take responsibility. (Mind you I was 3 years post DDay so it took a long long time to wrap my head around that reality.) My therapist smiled and said, “I wish I could stencil that in 2 foot high letters around the perimeter of my office – they will NEVER get it.” And I had a vision of her talking calmly and kindly to patient after patient. No, your mother will never get it. No, your dad will never get it. No, they will NEVER understand. And how all she wanted was to give her patients the tools to put it down and walk away. It’s the hardest thing to do. Just walk away from all that pain. It just haunts us like a demon. That’s why she smiled at me because she saw I had a glimmer of accepting the truth and I could just put it down when I wanted to. The glimmers of the truth come to me more often, but I do still struggle. I am so optimistic that I will be at meh soon. I can feel it!!
Exactly . Just when you dream up another angle of how they must “get it” it must be a chump understanding that if you just try harder to see the injustice that he will see the light and you be be vindicated .
Once again, I have to step in here and recommend the book (and website, maybe, for the book?) “Fuck [F***] Feelings” which is, essentially, this concept in a nutshell rehashed over & over: the alcoholic father, the lazy coworker, the inconsiderate neighbor — At some point in each of these scenarios (and, yes, cheating spouses are in there, as well), you just have to give up trying to reason with them, with yourself, and just draw your line in the sand, ask for what you want, then walk away. It’s surreal, but it’s a tool to help deal with people who just will NEVER understand.
NW
I got this on your recommendation and read it SO MANY TIMES and keep dipping in to it.
I gave a copies to my eldest sons.
I use it for client work.
It is saving me from years of wasted effort.
It is genius. ❤
thanks, Cap — It’s become something of a reference book for me, like some of my buddhism books, or a dictionary — something I can go back to when I drift off course: “Oh, right, they don’t care, and this is what I can do to help myself here.”
Both books “Runaway Husband’s” and “F*** Feelings,” I’ve been meaning to order. Think I’ll order them today.. Thanks for the reminder*
Just ordered it NW – thanks! Any other recommendations?
I found Vikk Stark’s “Runaway Husbands” incredibly helpful.
Capricorn, you have listed everything I’ve felt. It’s unbelievable how casually they can move on and throw away all the years we treasured and worked hard to make special. I’ll never understand how anyone can justify shattering their children’s lives. They’ve robbed their children of having an intact family, sharing mile stones with both parents, both parents who sincerely love them, sharing family stories, the day they were born, holidays, just the simple day to day living without the tension of divorce.
Everything from now on will be more difficult if not awkward, milestones, visitations, holidays, birthdays, future relationships. As if life isn’t difficult enough without additional trauma and stress that divorce entails.
In the first year after D day I had didn’t want to believe the obvious truth which is cheaters only care about themselves otherwise they wouldn’t be cheating. They don’t have a conscious they only have a motive.
And how ANGRY they get, later, when they realize they still wanted some of the stuff they threw away. How could Chump not just give it back immediately, as soon as they said a little ‘I’m sorry’? So bitter and self-righteous! So evil!
It’s because the focus is all on them and what they wanted. They don’t realize all the good stuff came from the chump. And then when they throw it away because they blamed the chump all along they realize EVERYTHING was the chump and that they are just an empty shell. STBX is realizing that a little bit at a time and it’s not a pleasant feeling for him. Family? Yeah, the family you had here is ALL MINE! (He’s from a foreign country) Traditions? Yep I made those for us! They aren’t the same with the whoremat? Because it was ALL ME. Because when you were happy that made me happy too. That’s what a relationship is! Loving someone and showing them you care. An open set of legs can never fill an entire life together! Too bad they don’t realize it before they destroy the lives of people that love them.
Amiisfree posted something before that tremendously helped me and that was to learn to own the things you had in the relationship. For example, if you enjoyed the sex, that was because *you* are capable of feeling the sensuality and joy, not necessarily because cheaterpants is great at it. Your happiness, your love, the things you made for the relationship to grow and blossom are all on you.
I recently read that if you keep asking yourself “how could this happen?” or “why did they do this?” (all part of untangling the skein and totally useless per CL) – that you are still in DENIAL.
I found out about the ho-worker 2 years ago, attempted reconciliation for 12 mos (while he kept breaking up and getting back together with AP during alleged marriage counseling), kicked him out last February (2016) when I realized realized he was still seeing the AP, , and just filed for divorce in January 2017. My kids and everyone who knows us are shocked beyond belief. A 56 year old leaving his family for a 29 year old the therapist called “damaged goods” who only wants his money. I have newfound empathy for families who watch addicts destroy their lives. it is insane!
Net – two years out — I’m still somewhat in denial on some days after a 30 year marriage, 3 kids, multiple cross-country moves, achieving financial stability and finally getting our youngest off to college.
I CAN NOT SAY ENOUGH THAT TRYING TO “GET IT” IS IMPOSSIBLE.
So for those of you in the early days, follow the advice of CN and focus on yourself, not the disordered.
It is hard, and I am weak, but I am crawling toward meh
Hang in there, TiredChump. It will get better. Now that you’ve filed, you are on a finite journey heading away from the lying and cheating. One day soon, you will be feeling more peaceful than sad. The pain does not last forever, and your body and mind will thank you for getting rid of the toxic cheater.
Sending virtual hugs.
They really just don’t get it at all Capricorn! And what’s more they don’t want to get it. If they had to sit and think about what they did, their whole world would come crashing down……and we can’t have that…..
I agree with this totally. They don’t want to get it.
My poor kids are going through this too. Been divorced for just over a year from the cheater and with no contact he can’t justify his actions to me anymore with his favourite explanation of “we see the world differently.”
It’s so hard to watch my kids being gaslighted and manipulated. They are seeing their dad for who he is and they are calling him on it. He’s trying so hard to convince them that it’s just their perceptions that are wrong, not how he’s behaving. They’re struggling with it, but see right through him and are drawing boundaries. I’m so proud of them but furious with him for trying to fuck them over too.
And this kind does this shit with everyone…even their kids. Trust they suck. And keep talking with your kids!!!!
Whenever I asked questions or tried to figure out what was going on ( I mean at this point our marriage was coming to a quick ugly death ), I got ” I don’t know”….
If anyone says that line to me in a relationship ever again, watch out – I won’t be responsible for my actions!!!
I don’t know = I DO know. I don’t want you to know and I cannot come up with some sort of word salad fast enough to shock and awe you enough at this moment.
My nuggets of truth are about about as appealing as the road apples dotting the horse pasture right now ( picture flies on a hot sunny day ) and I would chop off my left foot before sharing them with you!!!!
The truth is the truth. And the sky is blue. And my dog does think she is a people. I need coffee!!!
I heard, “How do you expect me to remember details about an affair that happened 8 years ago?” And yet he remembered whether she was fully shaved or just trimmed. And I’m pretty sure he remembered haven taken her to Mexico.
I got ‘ I don’t know’ followed by a shug and pouty look, pathetic.
Translation you not worth me telling. I don’t have to explain my action to you, you don’t own me.
Lady B, were we married to the same man? He’s tall, fat, bald, has bad teeth and shifty eyes?
Baahaaahaaa
Mine short athletic, hair, shifty beady eyes with no feeling. My mum even mentioned his eyes.
Next man good knows when, tall and broad with sparkly soulful eyes and an honest straight talking nature.
Same response with the pouty look.., what’s with that?? are we supposed to read their minds??
Once I came out and asked X if he was seeing someone else…, he answered with a phony, you know I’m not that kind of guy.., Brit, you have a vivid imagination.., you’re insecure.
As a Chump I thought maybe it was me being insecure, although I had a nagging feeling in my gut that didn’t feel like insecurity more like he’s full of shit.
I asked one of my many cheaters, have you ever paid for services? His response, No, have you? Way to quickly pass the hot potato!
Oh yeah, that was one of Assholio’s favorite techniques. Anything I asked him, he turned back onto me. Then I would scramble to defend myself instead of focusing on his avoidance of the original question. Super frustrating, and just another standard tool from the Cheater’s Toolkit (MSRP $19.99).
I got that same answer one night when I asked X if he ‘d been screwing around,
His response was the same, No, have you??
‘I don’t know’ meaning mostly ‘if I tell you the truth, you will despise me and never speak to me again, whereas if I say I don’t know, you could interpret in my favour again, spackle again, project your values onto me as you have always done, so things might work out for me!’
“I don’t know. So no, you can’t corner me or force me to tell you anything because.. I-don’t-know… And that’s that.”
KarenE you’re right, it’s just another way of saying “you can’t make me.”
Karen, this exactly.
You got it Karen, tricky feed the bs and stall for time.
I am the crappest typer speller here, solly
Have I told you lately how much I love you, Chump Lady?
To any new chumps here today – it gets better. Just don’t die for a year, and the world will spring alive anew. Wait for it; it’s worth it.
Yep. One year of wondering WTF just happened. Then some Tuesday comes along!…