We Grew Apart
“We grew apart” is a stupid euphemism for divorce over infidelity. Vague, both-sides-erism that serves cheaters. Don’t fall for it.
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Chump Lady once got into an exchange of comments with a fellow “Zalkreb” on Huffington Post. (Should we trust the opinion anyone who sounds like a Klingon extra on Star Trek? To be fair, I self refer as “chump” lady… anyway…)
He was very polite, but essentially said that there just aren’t that many divorces that result because of cheating.
No, people divorce because they “grew apart.”
Studies say so!
But come on, Zalkreb — do you think most people are going to cop to affairs ending their marriage? “Oh yes, Carla and I divorced because I would not stop fucking people I met on Ashley Madison.”
No, Zalkreb, when people ask, they’re going to say something banal and a bit poor sausage-ish like “We grew apart.”
As if their spouse was a helium balloon that became untethered and floated away.
Zalkreb writes:
I’m saying that infidelity is a minor cause of divorce. Many if not most people say and perhaps believe that male infidelity is the major cause of divorce. It’s not. The major cause of divorce is female feelings of lack of emotional fulfillment, i.e., feeling unappreciated, lacking a feeling of closeness, lacking adequate communication. This is not my opinion, my
theory, my personal experience, the experience of my friends or something I read about in Cosmo or a blog. It’s the consistent finding of many research studies involving surveys and interviews with divorcing couples. Here is an excerpt from the summary of the most recent study on the topic I’ve seen:“A sample of 886 individual divorcing parents in Hennepin County, Minnesota, in 2008 responded to a brief survey after mandated parenting classes. The two most common reasons given for seeking a divorce were “growing apart” (55%) and “not able to talk together” (53%). ”
Reasons for Divorce and Openness to Marital Reconciliation, Alan J. Hawkins, Brian J. Willoughby & William J. Doherty, Journal of Divorce & Remarriage, August 2012.
There are many more, going back decades, published in peer-reviewed academic journals and consistently reporting the same thing. You can take a look at them by checking www.scholar.google.com or going down to your local library. I’m sure the librarian would be happy to help. And who knows? You might come up with good material for your next blog.
Thank you Zalkreb for the blog fodder! I’m not near a local library at the moment to ask for help. (“Can you please show me the card catalog section on Stupid Cheater Euphemisms? Thank you.”) But I’m going to take your word for it — that when social scientists ask, people give “we grew apart” as their stock divorce answer.
IMO, as research goes, it’s not very deep.
If someone told me: “We grew apart,” I would ask WHY did you grow apart?
Cheating? Addiction? Mental Illness? Gambling? Dirty socks on the floor?
Nowhere do I argue that the majority of divorces result from infidelity — maybe they do, maybe they don’t. Who knows? There sure appear to be a hell of a lot of cheaters, however. And there must be some good money to be made at infidelity or fuckbuddy sites like Ashley Madison wouldn’t exist. Or Craigslist hookups. Not that you need a dating profile to cheat. There’s Facebook high school flames. Coworkers. Neighbors.
All that seems very common, but according to research, you say, it doesn’t lead to divorce.
Which makes me think, Zalkreb, that I really need to be trying harder. If all that cheating is happening and people are NOT divorcing over it? We have a “leave a cheater, gain a life” problem.
I also believe, of course, that many honorable people do actually divorce for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with infidelity.
But divorce is fucking painful and costly. I do not know a single person that has ever gone into it lightly for reasons as sugar spun as “lack of appreciation.” Humans are wired to BOND, and those bonds do not break easily IMO unless there are serious breaking points, in which it is more painful to stay than it is to go.
I truly despise all this crap from conservatives that people divorce willy nilly. Because they get a wild hair and don’t feel appreciated, and so they harrumph off to their lawyer’s office and draw up papers. Sure. All these single mothers just WANTED it like that. They’re sitting around feeling very liberated and self actualized, neglecting their children as they selfishly paint their toenails in preparation for another night out at the disco.
And if anyone asks, as she tipples another high ball at the bar, “Where’s your husband?” She can reply “Oh, we grew apart.”
What ‘we grew apart’ really means.
Cheaters give euphemisms when asked why they divorced, because hey, who wants to look like a douchebag? And chumps probably thought they “grew apart” until they discovered the cheating. Or they agreed to this narrative to protect the cheater’s image. (For The Children.) But actual growing apart? I’m skeptical.
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Your Friday Challenge CN is to tell CN if you heard “we grew apart” from your cheater, or anyone in their circle as a reason for your divorce. I suspect affair partners hear it too…
TGIF!
That’s my girl! Another Chumplady classic.
Thanks for continuing to be the frank voice of reason.
Thanks Paula!
Okay, I take back what I said about Zalkreb being a polite person. This just in:
“I did read your blog, Chump Lady. It’s pretty much the garden-variety stew of denial I see all the time. I doubt many people who know anything about this topic are going to be swayed by your quarter-baked theories, unfounded speculations and original insights.
As a general rule, when we encounter people who prefer to believe their own self-serving hypotheses in preference to the consistent findings of many research studies done in many ways over many years and published in many peer-reviewed academic journals, we call those people closed-minded, ignorant bigots. I’m sure you’re an exception to this rule, but I’m not sure why. What do you think?”
I think you’re a hater, Zalkreb and one of those wing nuts who thinks there isn’t a single, legitimate reason to divorce someone. Only “selfish” people do it. Which I find rich. Because in my experience, selfish people do selfish things to drive their marriages into ditches, but when spouses throw themselves out of the careening vehicle, they’re labeled “selfish.” And intent on damaging their children. It’s total blame the victim. And if you point out that, yeah asshole, there ARE victims in this shit — then they point and say you’re “playing the victim.”
Divorce is selfish? NO, INFIDELITY IS SELFISH. No one should martyr themselves to stay married for the sake of the children. Model self respect. Your children will thank you when they grow up to be nobody’s doormat.
I always love the Wreckonciliation is hard, divorce is for the weak.
Funny thing is wreckonciliation you just stay. Divorce is an action.
The save your marriage scheme preys on weak people grasping at straws. Hey, there’s money to be made off them. Just buy my system and save your marriage. Kaching, kaching.
Just stay and wallow in your hopium addiction.
You must believe the science. We use it all the time to keep the sheep in-line.
It works for wars, Covid, etc. That’s why we use it. 😎
It’s time to add backup from our resident scholar well-versed in studies and always at the ready, Hell of a Chump.
HOAC, are you in the house?
Lol, I graduated Summa Vacca Suberba from Midvale School for the Gifted.
All I can say is the guy sounds like a member of the organized Skeptics, a sort of multi-industry PR front group that once reigned in the media and academic hubs. I can usually tell by the particular brand of smug sciency-speak and a tendency to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of engaging in blah blah blah “cognitive fallacies.” They always whine about the “democratization of science” and plebes who dare to tread upon this sacred ground which, given the fact that laws and policies are increasingly based on science, actually calls for “plebes” to become science literate for democracy to even function.
When I worked for an eco publication, I spent 12 years barraged by Skeptic trolls back when they “allegedly” (they hide corporate funding under educational nonprofit loopholes) contracted with Monsanto. You could kind of trip them up by posting links to peer-reviewed science that contradicted “their science” or posting Lancet or JAMA reports on how most scientific studies these days are manipulated trash. But then they’d always bring up the issue that only true scientists are allowed to interpret these things– a bit like the tenth century church canons forbidding the laity from translating scripture. But ah, that’s when it became really fun to fuck with them because they’ll always Rambo out of any debate in a tizzy the moment anyone starts arguing that science is the rightful domain of political discussion for reasons mentioned above. Bring up terms like “totalitarian scientism” and their heads explode.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Skeptic trolls have branched out into bashing anything related to #MeToo because it’s what done ’em in following a big rape/harassment scandal that broke out in their ranks in which several prominent “thought leaders” (cough, contracted spin doctors) like Michael Shermer and James Randi were dragged. It was always an open secret that the organization harbored several rapists but the shocking thing is these facts would never make the mainstream press. It was like they were untouchable and, prior to the scandal, group members and affiliates reigned in media and academic spin defenses of anything from Glyphosate (“good for toddlers!”) to torture and racial profiling and specialized in disparaging scientific whistleblowers, industrial disaster survivors or commercial food producers that promote GMO-free food.
Now that the group lost clout, they seem to have a lot of time on their hands to bitch about cancel culture and the excesses of #MeToo. But the rape scandal and the time Skeptic icon Sam Harris was exposed by Glen Greenwald as a warmongering racist apologist made the trolls much easier to mess with. You can just say they sound a lot like Michael Shermer or Sam Harris. Whether they get defensive or claim not to know who these people are, it calls for explanations and links and– hahahaha, derail.
I have no shame in using cheap tactics to trounce these shills to win over “undecideds” because the issues I was usually arguing for were life and death. To quote what Murray Kemper wrote about editorial writers, the Skeptics are “the people who come down from the hills after battle to shoot the wounded.” Their main MO is silencing victims and “manufacturing consent.” If I could derail them with fart sounds I would but that’s a bit difficult in text.
By the way, I’m third generation agnostic but the Skeptics– who tout themselves as organized atheists– actually fit the definition of existential cult. Frankly anyone who tries to win by supposed scientific authority in a debate about an issue related to sexual abuse is Skeptic-like and deserves the same treatment.
I have one of those social science PhD thingies–I’m sure there are others around. Mr Huffpost is full of shit, and just getting off on mansplaining to Tracy all about a subject she has spent years immersed in. What a buffoon, and my guess is, also a cheater.
Sorry….just realized this is from years ago!
Delete!
Excellent point on the ‘blame the victim’ stuff. My STBX went through a phase where he would constantly say ‘you just want to play the victim/be a victim’ and I would sit there thinking ‘but I AM victim’ because that idiot was cheating for YEARS while I had no clue.
So yeah, had to get that off my chest. Ahem.
Nothing quite like someone telling you you’re “playing” the victim when you legit are one. That flavor of DARVO makes me a tad rage-y 😂
Exactly! my STBXH was a hooker-humper. I’ve been following the whole zumba-prostitution scandal in the northeast with interest. I *hate* reading the troll comments under the articles saying “Legalize prostitution!! It’s a victimless crime!” Ummm…hello!!??? There are LOTS of victims in that scenario. You think that all hooker-humpers are swinging singles?? Tell that to my two little children who will eventually find out about what a slime their dad is!
I had to go into Geneva (Switzerland) yesterday for a dr appointment. I haven’t been for ages but I used to work in central Geneva, right by the lake. I don’t know if prostitution is legal or just tolerated in Switzerland but this area is also the prostitute area. As I was on the bus going through, I couldn’t help wondering how many of those women were there of their own volition or how many were being pimped. “Victimless” my ass!
are you in 74 or 01? I am not far from GVA
just saying maybe we could meet if not too far
74 midway between Geneva and Chamonix
oh i am next to the lake so probably still a few 50min away from you and will be moving in few months 🙁 would have like to talk about my story with someone that got it as well as I do 🙂
I’m retired so fairly flexible. Can we DM on here, rather than putting it out on the site? Where are you moving to? 01?
yep, but not sure hot to contact you directly
Yeah, that’s the tough one: the kids. Mine know that he had an affair and that broke up the marriage and while they are suspicious there’s more I haven’t told them anything other than ‘your dad did not respect our marriage’.
I’ve had quite a few people say that they don’t need to know. Ever. Then I had some people tell me that when they found out, years after the divorce, that their dad/mom was actually a serial cheater and not someone who just screwed around once, they felt like they had to relive all that pain once again.
My therapist says be honest, within limits, with the kids. She approves of using the respect line as it isn’t a lie and it keeps the door open for future discussions when the time is appropriate. I’m going with that for now.
What’s especially rich is when Zalkreb says that children would be better off if mothers said to their children, “I left daddy and evicted him from our home just because I thought I would be happier without him around.” Even if there is a single case in which Z’s sick scenario is true (which I doubt), in what universe does this help children? I also re-read the HuffPo comment rules, and his comments seem to violate many of them – especially in terms of being off-topic. In another post that was about putting children first when their is marital distress, he actually said that “the central premise” of this blog was to say that divorce makes you happy, and then of course went on to give his usual drivel. Why is this allowed?
Right *ON!* Chump Lady!
Actually, I would have taken my ex husband back after he announced his affair. I begged him to come home–I did the humiliating dance and the whole nine yards.
But, ultimately, he picked her, the alcoholic home-wrecker, over his awesome wife and three awesome kids. Ran up his credit card into the tens of thousands of dollars, to boot.
No, he is not right in the head. Yes, I divorced his ass. No, I didn’t take it lightly. No, I don’t regret it. I didn’t do anything to cause him to bail. Was I perfect? No. Does he regret his choices? Yes–even if he won’t admit it yet. To borrow a phrase from my teenagers, “It sucks to suck.”
Sorry, but infidelity is a form of abuse, and I don’t take abuse from anyone. I sure as shit don’t share a home with a cheater/liar/thief. I am not friends with known cheaters/liars/thieves, either, so the ex and I will not be friends–until such time as he shows proper remorse and makes restitution. (…HAHAHAH, like THAT’ll ever happen!)
Call me selfish. I’m not afraid of that word.
I am selfish in a healthy way. I take pleasure in healthy relationships, in being effective, in doing what I love. I think my selfishness makes me a really great neighbor, coworker, family member, volunteer.
I think not letting a cheater occupy my time and space is a really smart thing. I have more time for my children, my parents, my friends, and my dogs. I am more financially secure, too.
I love being selfish. Some day I hope to meet a selfish single man who takes really good care of himself and his responsibilities and the people HE loves.
Woo!
Selfish is awesome! Cheaters suck! (They are self-destructive rather than self-serving. Big difference.)
I’ve never understood why cheaters want to get married. They can just stay single and enjoy their freedom and variety. I’ve read that cheaters don’t get a high on the sex. They get high on the deceit. Sick.
Cheaters marry you (the serial cheating kind, I think there are exceptions to this), because you are of USE to them. You’re a good care taker. You have something they want and you provide a cover that lets them pass as normal.
Why is a cheater concerned about appearing as normal? I’m not sure that’s true. Staying married for appearances would be very unsatisfying and a lot of work.
I think a serial cheater is addicted to risky behavior. Sneaking around and getting away with something they shouldn’t be doing produces a high that’s probably better than the sex.
The serial cheater is probably also tempted by other vices such as gambling and drinking too much.
I think you’re both right. They do want to appear normal, but it is a fantasy, and then, yes, when they realize they can’t maintain it, of course they take it out on the nearest person – their spouse.
Too true. I’m apparently to blame for all my STBX’s current woes, despite having little to do with him.
I think serial cheaters marry for similar reasons. Mine didn’t want to end the marriage, he just wanted to have his sidepieces and apparently didn’t understand (and still doesn’t) why that wasn’t going to work and why I didn’t just ‘get over it’.
He wanted his mother/wife at home, his kids, his nice house, his nice life, a bit of fun times with the family but also the freedom to come and go as he pleased.
I just CANNOT believe how dumb I was and how blind to his double life. Incredible. 🙂
JL,
My marriage has dragged on long past D-Day for a myriad of reasons and your comment rings true for me. He was having an affair for years before D-Day. He was in no rush to end the marriage, heck, he didn’t even want me to KNOW there was someone else. I assumed he enjoyed the cake. But he did eventually tell me, and I think it is MORE than cake. I think he enjoys the emotional minefied.
His affair is over and we are separated. He has been in no rush to start the actual divorce proceedings, and has actually been super resistant. It’s not that he wants me back. He moved out 10 months ago, was dating lots of women (casually) immediately upon moving out. And then more recently he met someone and they got super serious within 8 weeks. He is slightly more open to getting the divorce finalized, but is still somewhat resistant.
We have been as amicable as possible. (Which is mostly me being an angel and ignoring him when he acts like a FW) We have done lots of things as a family for the kids. He still has access to me in all ways except sexually. I think he NEEDS that.
He needs the extra kibbles. He needs the extra attention. It’s almost like he won’t enjoy his new girlfriend as much if I am not around to witness it.
“Cheaters marry you (the serial cheating kind, I think there are exceptions to this), because you are of USE to them.”
I don’t think there are exceptions, actually. Even if you look closely at those super-sobbing first-timers, so desperate for Reconciliation … they can tell their APs for months & months, sometimes years they are in love with them, plan futures together, and then BOOM! Thrown under the bus on Dday. Then, with the encouragement/orders of the BS they repaint the AP as cartoon-evil with the most disgusting hatred!
That is a person who clearly demonstrates that they use people! And the BS (I was one of them thar Chumps) thinks this is an indication that yes HE/SHE loves ME! “Oh, yes, that makes sense … the fog (puke), MLC/Brokenness ….they hit rock bottom and hooked up with the scum at the bottom. Yes, the AP is permanently broken/evil and my newly-devoted spouse is fixable.
No, no. They are so desperate for R because they want to a) keep their money, b) keep the facade to family/friends/community, c) deny what they KNEW ALL ALONG – I deserve to be DIVORCED when I CHEAT.
Well said, Bunk. That’s exactly how I felt when I discovered STBX’s A. He only wanted to stay with me to save his money, to gain his mommy’s approval, and to preserve his “nice guy” image. Although I lost many years to him, at least I saw through his fake claims to want R so that I ended the M a few days after DDay. I don’t know how you ever work through that or trust that person again. You have to be pretty damn awful to do what my STBX did to me, and there was no coming back from that as far as I was concerned.
Hence, why I love Chump Lady. Somebody sees through the bull and totally gets it!
As you point out, it is fairly mind boggling that this Zalkreb person, when presented with the “we just grew apart” explanation, does not take is a step further and inquire,”how so?”.
I am sure my first XW would come up with something like “we just grew apart” or ” the relationship lacked connection” etc. She would never offer” I was having sex with strangers” as the reason we “grew apart”.
I am sure some folks divorce after feeling they no longer love each other. But, infidelity is also one of the major reasons for divorce. It is rampant these days.
Ugh. The ‘lack of connection’. What that really means is that they aren’t getting hot for you in 3.2 seconds like when you first met and early relationship sex is hotter. Of course it is: you just met, you want to fuck like bunnies six times a day and this lasts for quite some time. Over time that subsides and there’s a different kind of sex (although those hot times do come back here and there). The sex with a couple who’ve been together fora long time can be even better, if you aren’t always out looking for that high.
Serial cheaters are eternally looking for the high, and I swear that my STBX thinks that each one will be the one who ‘satisfies’ him forever. Until they don’t.
To be fair, I did not see anywhere in Zalkreb’s reply that he felt it was selfish for anyone to divorce. I see he does not attribute divorce to infidelity very much. But, where do you get that he feels it is selfish? Maybe I am missing something.
Um, you gotta go back to HuffPo and search for his comments. It’s there, clear as day.
People trying to avoid well-deserved blame often cast events in the passive voice. “We grew apart?” Really? And what ACTIONS/CHOICES put the distance between you? That’s where the horse is burried.
“We grew apart” is to cheating spouses what “shit happens” is to slacker-stoners and “mistakes were made” is to failed generals.
Exactly. My XH and I ‘grew apart’ because he had yoga on Mondays, fucked the mistress on Tuesdays and Thursdays and got ‘extras’ from lap dancers on Fridays and Sundays. Of course, he wasn’t ‘looking for an affair, it just happened’ but she’s a lot fun and they have a ‘real connection.’
Indeed. My STBX and I ‘grew apart’ because he was busy chasing other women and banging some of them. Hard to feel ‘connected’ or ‘together’ when your attention is on anyone except your spouse.
Idiots, the lot of ’em.
Hey – a bit harsh, throwing Zalkreb under the bus IMO. He had an opinion, a wrong one if you ask me, but I feel you could have spoken about him without actually mentioning his name and huffpo. But that’s just me.
Cheating. There’s no excuse for this, none whatsoever. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves and ask why “he/she didn’t break up with me instead”.
I’ll be a realist here and say this – cheating totally sucks, but breaking up/divorce, though honorable isn’t exactly a whole lot less painful.
Zalkreb wants his name mentioned. He actually encouraged Chump Lady to blog about his comment.
“cheating totally sucks, but breaking up/divorce, though honorable isn’t exactly a whole lot less painful”
Couldn’t disagree more with this statement. About as un-“realistic” as could be.
It’s not just about honor, either. Divorce involving long-term serial infidelity played out in a secret life is much worse by any measure you want to use. It’s one thing to realize your marriage is at an end and you need to start a new chapter. It’s another to realize that whole decades of your life, including your raising of your children, was a lie. There are also often mental health issues that arise from years of gaslighting (i.e., trying to fix a marriage by making your needs smaller, accepting false criticism that you are the problem rather than the secret affiars, accepting blame for the cruel choices of others, etc.).
IMO, a person could only say this if: 1) they never head a marraige end due to infidelity; or 2) they had already checked out of the marriage when the affair was discovered; or 3) they had a heart of stone.
WEll said, Nomar. When I discovered the extent of his cheating is made me look back on ‘our’ life and realise that so many events were sullied by the fact that he had sidepieces at important times, boring times, any time.
The worst part is that I helped him get through some pretty hairy career moments and he would run around telling people how great I was and how lucky he was to have me. Yet he was still screwing other women.
Makes the whole thing feel false and like a massive waste of my time. Nothing worse than realising you loved someone who is capable of mass deception, and that they try to blame you for their own fucked up issues.
Couldn’t agree more Nomar and JL. Nothing worse than finding out the hand that was squeezing your back when you were making love actually had a knife in it! Kinda takes your whole life and destroys the foundation. If your marriage is on the rocks, fight for that shit, try and fix it. If there are kids, try that much harder, if it doesn’t work out, divorce on civil terms, just don’t cheat!!
Yes, yes, yes. The hand, that when you are down and most vulnerable, with just a light touch immediately raises your spirits, instead stabs you in the back is the mind fuck of the century.
I’m 16 years out, one kid is 21, the other 19. Ex and I get along well now, we kind of have to as DD19 is at a Service Academy and momma Navy are her parents now and if we want to see her, often it has to be together.
I just look at her and wonder why? She voluntarily gave up missing half of our kid’s lives for the AP. Her affair lasted 13 years until AP died. She had choice. I didn’t. I just don’t get it.
Actually, to divorce without cheating is hard. To divorce because of cheating is hell.
Chump Lady, kind of depends on what side of the fence your on. My ex. entered into a willy-nilly relationship with about 6 different guys, filed for divorce due to emotional unfullfillment, abandoned our 4 kids, has her nails done once a week and goes to the bar everynight looking for the next Mr. Wrong. If you ask her why she left, it wasn’t because she wanted more cock that KFC sells in a year, it was because she felt unappreciated and now wants her freedom.
Oh, and our wonderful court system makes me pay 3K/month in child support and alimony because she never held a job outside of the home and although she doesn’t see the kids, she has to have the ability to see the kids if she changes her mind.
She filed for divorce for her own happiness, she got more in court just because she is a woman and the kids and I are too be damned and have to sit back and suck on it.
Hahahaha…she felt unappreciated? This is cheater’s code for ‘you didn’t focus solely on me and make me the center of the world and didn’t take full responsibility for my happiness.’
Your ex is another emotional infant who thinks it’s someone else’s job to fill that gaping hole in their soul.
Why are you paying CS to a woman who abandoned her kids? You need to iron that shit out in court. I responded to your other comment in detail, just fyi.
Whatever it costs you, you’re better off without this woman in your life. A lot of guys would like to be you and have the kids. Just be the best dad you can be and detach from her. She’s a wreck.
This is precisely the kind of tragedy she is talking about. Your ex is a psycho cheater who PRETENDED that the problem was “growing apart.” Nothing depends – Chump Lady is on YOUR side.
I don’t know about the alimony part, but it sounds like you should contest the child support order if she doesn’t see the kids.
Yes, many people cheat and yes, that is why many people divorce in a hurry.
But, there are people, loads of people, who have been in relationships for very long…20 years plus, who DO feel disconnected from their partner, can not talk about much anymore or do not feel appreciated. Its a long time to feel that way, even if it is just for a few years near the end. Many people stay in relationships for financial reasons or for the kids and do not run off to screw someone ASAP.
I understand what this Z guy was writing and I do not assume that the research is hiding cheating. I do think, yes, people grow apart. Its painful and eventually, people split. Not everyone is horny douchebag who ‘grow apart’ and fill the void with some extraneous genital bumping. Most people are eager to discuss their spouse cheating on them or even that they found ‘true love’ (aka. temporary fix post long, monogamous relationship).
‘We grew apart” is exactly what my ex told a former friend of his who asked why we had split. HAH!!!! “We grew apart because I wanted her to keep trying hard and investing in the relationship and loving me like crazy and showing it in all sorts of ways, while I did pretty much none of that, criticized her and everyone/everything else constantly, and never even thought about my responsibilities in the relationship, to her or to our children. Then I was resentful, and had an opportunity to screw around with someone who would give me tons of ego kibbles while on a business trip, so took it! Oh, and it wasn’t the first time I was unfaithful, either. ” That would be the more honest version. But if a researcher asked him …..
I don’t remember ever hearing “we grew apart” (although he was probably telling his drinking buddies down at the ho bar just that – while buying drinks for his ho – but I remember him saying “after we decided to divorce” – all the while looking down at the floor because he couldn’t face me. I remember saying “yeah, I didn’t like his girlfriend”! He probably told the same story when he moved back to the States and may even believe it, who knows. My kids were over there in March and he is definitely not happy, but then she doesn’t have a retirement plan and he can’t be alone. Who cares. Not my circus!
Zalkreb is an idiot if he thinks people’s self reported reasons for divorce are anything but self serving. It is like saying someone died because they stopped breathing.and ignoring years of smoking and drinking to excess that caused organ failure.
“We grew apart” is exactly the phrase the FW used. It ignored her cheating with co-workers for years and diagnosed psychiatric issues. Sneaking around and playing games was way more fun and distracting than dealing directly personal and marriage issues.
After FW told his immediate family that we were separating, his brother in law reached out to me to see how I was. They said it’s hard but sometimes “people grow apart”. And that is how I knew the FW didn’t tell anyone in his family what actually happened.
I didn’t correct him. My FW is high conflict, we have kids and the divorce process hasn’t started yet. I didn’t want to piss him off and make things harder on me.
I’m hoping that decades of more current research will change the narrative (maybe some other chumps have access and can add legitimate research to CL resources)?
The aftershocks of infidelity: a review of infidelity-based attachment trauma: Sexual and Relationship Therapy: Vol 36 , No 1 – Get Access (tandfonline.com)
The bias of the researchers, as well as those who report on research, is hard to wade through. I bet the staff at family court offices grasp the truth.
And FWs are still going to FW.
When I started online dating, I considered the “we grew apart” thing as a sure sign that the person I was talking with was a cheater. Mostly because I knew that my ex was on those same sites, and I had fun imaging what story he told people he was meeting. It sure as heck wasn’t “Well, I found myself visiting massage parlors regularly. It started out as morbid curiosity but I got to enjoy the special services that were on offer. Once my wife found out, I tried lying to her about how often I was going, but eventually I told her I had spent thousands on these women, and she told me I needed to move out. So then, I decided, since I was on my own, I should date! You know how hard it is to be alone. So I saw all these great ladies I met online. I, of course, didn’t mention this to my wife, because you know how she would have reacted! And then when we were in marriage counseling, it was really the better decision to just focus on our future together as a couple, and not mention my lady friends. But of course, I messed up again and suggested in a moment of honesty that yeah, I did have some hooks ups on the side, so she filed for divorce. But, of course, I’ve broken in to her home, taken some stuff and some money, and read her diary. And I found out that she’s pretty angry with me – though, she was also very honest in her legal filings, and I unfortunately didn’t find anything to use against her. I guess we just grew apart.”
It’s so much easier and simpler to just skip to the last sentence: We just grew apart!
I often wonder what he is saying to his new ladies too. He was doing a lot of online dating, but now he has found one that he says he is committed to and serious about.
I can’t imagine that he told her the actual truth. His image management wouldn’t stand for it. But also, who the hell wants to get serious with a guy that did what HE did?
I do know that he tells them all about how friendly we still are. How I am his best friend. How do I know? Because early on, he told me. But also, another more recent time, it turned out the woman he was on a date with was good friend’s with someone who is also MY friend. The date went to our mutual friend and asked about my relationship with FW and the friend said he was an abusive cheat. She blocked him. He has no idea why.
“We grew apart” is just the most bland thing you can say….it’s like saying the Pope is Catholic, it’s obviously true, but it doesn’t mean anything. WHY did you grow apart? WHAT happened? Let’s have some action verbs here! It’s that passive voice again….”things happened” “things were said” ….you grew Apart….what, were you captured by the Resistance? WHAT HAPPENED? They’re so full of shit.
Dickhead McCluggage told a friend of mine after he’d visited me as I worked a short contract overseas that while he enjoyed his holiday and spending time with me, he didn’t feel ‘a connection’ with me.
He didn’t bother to tell me- just ghosted me for 7 months until I discovered I’d been replaced.
You’d think we were merely dating instead of being married for years.
He probably did find it hard to have a ‘connection’ with me, since he was plugged into someone else’s terminal and all…
There was no “we grew apart” but faced with the half discovery I was told I didn’t know how to communicate.
The situation has been highly damaging for me as I feel betrayed to the chore of my soul. Growing apart makes no sense. I would say I became an adult and he just stayed a spoiled teenager. Maybe the problem is not growing apart but lack of growing/maturity by the FWs.
Wait a second, wait a second ….
Zalkreb cites this as proof that “females” initiate divorce due to a lack of emotional fulfillment and feeling unappreciated.
“A sample of 886 individual divorcing parents in Hennepin County, Minnesota, in 2008 responded to a brief survey after mandated parenting classes. The two most common reasons given for seeking a divorce were “growing apart” (55%) and “not able to talk together” (53%). ”
This says not a single thing about women. Holy extrapolation, dude.
Oh I see posts all over social media that state that most divorces are filed by women. The message is meant to be “women can just decide to leave you at any moment and then the man is going to lose his kids, home and money for no reason other than her flighty female whim”. And it makes me crazy.
I’ve been reading this site for awhile now. And what I see are a lot of chumps (of all genders) stating that after DDay their FWs refused to file. How many chumps get cheated on, FW moves out to be with schmoopie and then the Chumps have to do all the work to initiate the divorce despite not being the one that wanted out in the first place? I’ve seen so many chumps deal with that.
And that doesn’t cover the mightiest of chumps, the ones that have D-Day and immediately file. That is still on the FW, not the chump.
The statistic of women being the ones that file doesn’t actually MEAN anything about why divorce happens. WHY did they file? Did they file because their spouse is having an affair? Because that is not the same as “Abolish No Fault Divorce as us poor men are getting divorced for no good reason” Often the chumps are forced to do the filing and then the Chump is the one paying the FW the support!
Apologies for the exclusive language here. Men are chumped too. As are gay folks. But this specific narrative online does seem to be specifically about women divorcing men.
Everyone hears it! But both my cheaters began devaluing once they started fishing and playing the field. It took 3 years each to destroy our family brick by brick. It was more the Peter Pan ideal once kids hit and the centrality diminished and with #2 it was tired of being married to one person and never “having lived”. Grew apart is what happens after cheating. And cheating is the bomb that destroys everything…
Chicken or egg growing apart is just another Excuse…, cheating does not enhance a marriage in any way- for those who stay, it is the chorus for the pick me dance
I am but one datapoint. But I offer it to Zalkreb and any others trying to divine the causes of divorce.
In the dying days of my marriage, while my exH and I were in individual therapy and simultaneously grappling with the best way to arrive at a Separation Agreement in the midst of the first wave of the COVID-19 pandemic and lockdowns, he says to me:
“My therapist suggested that we explain our divorce to family and friends as, We Grew Apart. I think that is a great way to explain it to people”.
It is a great way to explain our divorce to people if you want to obscure the fact that my exH had:
Maintained a double life that stretched back at least a decade before we met and were married. A double life that was well-documented in an indexed e-mail archive of messages with fuckbuddies and their dick pics. Cross-referenced by date and topic.Married me without ever telling me about his past or his current and ongoing “extra curricular activities”Had multiple fuckbuddies throughout the marriage while insisting he wanted a monogamous relationship (forgetting to tell me that that the marriage was monogamous for me only)At one point agreeing to an “open relationship” with numerous guardrails to protect the primacy of our relationship and our health and then promptly disregarding every single thing he agreed to do and cheated and lied to me anywayWas non-verbal with me for days at a time refusing to answer questions or engage in conversation and when I pointed it out – would fly into an angry rage and deny that he heard my question. Insisted I was always asking him a question from another room and he could not hear it – false, as I was sitting next to him. Or he would insist he had already answered my question and that I was hard of hearing. I was not and am not hard of hearing in any way.Attended crystal meth fuelled sex orgies with random men met online during the early days of the pandemic – before vaccines and well understood treatment options were developed. Would deny he did so all the while potentially exposing me to the virus.
So yes – if one were to ask my exH why we divorced, I have little doubt that he would say some version of “we drifted apart”. And he very likely would quickly pivot to his natural posture as the perpetual victim. The poor lamb walked on “eggshells” because of my “anger issues” and he could never live up to my exhausting and impossible standards for his behaviour. As he later told me, the only reason he was going through with the divorce was because he “couldn’t make me happy”.
Indeed, he was the master of understatement when it came to his appalling and outrageous behaviour towards me.
I’m so glad you escaped from that! I know it’s always painful to end a relationship but that sounds frankly….nightmarish. When you are constantly being devalued, and undermined, and lied to, and invalidated….that’s really debilitating. I like to tell people now that they didn’t just divorce or separate…..they escaped.
I have come to believe from being on CL that most cheats are unfit for marriage and chumps should be able to get quick civil annulments that are free of charge because of this.
Fidelity in marriage is a matter of integrity; if you have enough of it to be fit for marriage, you stay faithful no matter what. You don’t cheat, lie and play your spouse for a mug because you’ve too much respect, both for them and for yourself and you have standards for your own behaviour, lines you will not cross. You need these things in order to be a safe person for others to be close to, never mind married to and cheats don’t have enough of them or have none at all! Your cheating EX sounds to me like he had none of the qualities that make one fit for marriage at all! Some of CN have some really shocking, evil exes and yours is up there! Maybe in the Top 5 I reckon!
You’re well rid but I’m sorry he put you through that- it wasn’t a marriage, it was an ordeal, bless you!
I like your idea especially in cases where people have had multiple affairs, or serial cheaters, or just going to one hooker after another – there’s no commitment to marriage here or no common idea of what a committed relationship should be. There should be an easier process involved to end this.
Point 1: Self-reported data is extremely unreliable. You could literally ask me and my ex why we got a divorce, and your conclusion would be that 50% of divorces end because of infidelity, and 50% of divorces end because of a “lack of emotional support.”
Point 2: It’s irrelevant to the mission of CN, which is to help individuals recover emotionally from the pain of infidelity. Whether it’s 90% of divorces, or 10% of divorces, it doesn’t matter.
Point 3: It’s not about (or not solely or always about) the physical act of infidelity. I think this gets to an issue that a lot of cheaters glom onto – that it’s just sex/texting/flirting/whatever. E.g., why are chumps so upset about sex? It is a basic physical act between two animals! It means nothing! Honestly, looking back, the physical aspects of the affair were dwarfed by the structural deficiencies in our marriage that the affair represented. In that sense, you could actually say that my marriage did not end because my ex was unfaithful. The physical/emotional infidelity was incidental. The real issue is that my exFW had a complete lack of regard for my emotional or physical wellbeing, a complete lack of respect for our family, an amazing ability to lie, and a willingness to divert marital income behind my back. FW’s infidelity threatened her career, my health, our family, and our finances. The sex was actually pretty low on the list of legitimate reasons to end my marriage.
All of this! Perfect.
My FW was incredibly controlling and jealous. I was BEYOND loyal and didn’t understand his suspicious nature. I had never done a thing to warrant it. And was almost never out of his sight anyway. Obviously, he was projecting but I didn’t know what that was at the time. (If only! Could have saved me years!)
For me? Him being in love with or sleeping with someone else was not at the top of the list of reasons for our divorce. It was on the list for sure. But it was much harder for me to get over the fact that while he was putting me through all his jealous rages, he had the bald audacity to be carrying on a years long affair behind my back. It still gets my hackles up. It’s almost like all his jealousy and controlling proved just how BAD he thought cheating was…and then he did it to me anyway!
I would personally add to that, that I don’t like my sexual experiences being regarded as purely animal practices. I don’t think of them that way – some of them are duds, sure, but frequently you get what you give and how you regard something is how it will look to you.If sex is just like eating a hot dog or blowing your nose, it’s not gonna have the great significance it will have to someone who regards it as not only pleasure but spiritually joining with another person and wanting them to feel joy and being cherished as much as you do. You can devalue ANYTHING and that’s the value it will have for you. That’s why so many of us call it….MAKING LOVE.
I completely agree. For me, there is an undeniable emotional connection related to sex. Personally, while I have no real issues with people in honest open relations – consenting adults, and all that – I call BS on the idea that sex is something that anyone can really divorce from their emotions or, if you could, it is somehow more “evolved” to do so. If I am less “evolved” because I value emotional connection and monogamy, then so be it. But, I always laugh at the folks in open relationships when one of them says “oops, I caught feelings for this other person and now I am leaving,” which seems to be, like, all the time. Honestly, I think if you can completely and totally divorce your emotions from sex with a person, then maybe you’re a bit of a sociopath. You’d almost have to be in order to use another person solely for your own gratification without any regard for them or their feelings.
I guess I only brought it up in my original post as a rebuke to the idea that infidelity is just about sex. It’s about so much more than that, but the sex is also very important, and the feelings of betrayal and “ick” are very, very real, but also very hard for people to understand if they haven’t really been through it. For those people, I like to say “it’s not just about sex and my feelings – I literally cannot trust this person anymore, about anything.”
I just don’t think that you can have regular or ongoing sex with another person and not develop feelings for them. I think that is really….abnormal. Maybe if it’s a one night stand, yeah, maybe, not for me, but okay….but not if you’re seeing someone regularly. You don’t fuck people you don’t like or have some kind of affection for. I don’t think anyway. You’re gonna be kissing and handling their body and yours in obviously the most intimate ways and you do various bodily things we all know….and if it works out well particularly, you’re going to have good feelings for each other and you’re gonna talk about other things in your lives – or you start off talking first, whatever, but….no most people who are in open relationships, that’s how it ends up. They fall for someone else. Because when you’re IN an open relationship….you’re looking for someone/something else. What you have is not enough for you, even if you pretend that it’s in addition to what you have….it’s really not. You’re looking for something else because what you have isn’t enough.
If you marry someone, you are making an agreement. Like any other agreement, if you no longer want to keep the agreement, you inform the person you made the agreement with FIRST, before breaking the agreement.
Cheaters don’t keep agreements and arenMt interested in keeping agreements. They lie and deceive to arrange things and use people to suit themselves.
Relationships are not made for self-centered people who lack empathy (aka, cheaters and side pieces).
Cheating is about wanting fries AND vegetables with your entree, keeping secrets, getting high on deception. It’s not “a mistake” or an accident or unintentional.
In any situation, if you made an agreement with someone willing to break it behind your back, it’s a BAD DEAL and the wisest thing you can do is leave. Hold out for people who keep their agreements.
I don’t know where I read the story below but I saved it:
“A friend and I were talking one day. He has been happily married to his high school sweetheart for over 20 years. He is a handsome high-end wedding photographer and sees rich beautiful brides and bridesmaids every weekend for the past 10 years. He travels all the time for his work. He has all the chances in the world to cheat and to “trade up”. I was young and naive and we were talking about marriage and commitment, I was asking him how you know if it’s the right one, and what if someone else better comes along, etc. He said “Someone better will always come along. There will always be someone more beautiful, funnier, skinnier, or richer than your partner. But commitment is to choose someone and love them for all that they are and not despise them for what they’re not. Marriage is a create, the two of you have to create your love every day, it never runs on automatic.”
So, there will always be someone “better” that will come along, there are billions of people. The purpose of marriage is choosing ONE and loving THEM like you are supposed to. It’s a promise to SHUT THOSE OTHER OPTIONS DOWN. That’s why you make promises about “forsaking all others” and even sign a contract.”
VH,
I love that story. I’d even take it one step further, and say that someone new is always going to be more exciting. Well, ok, there are some very special marriages out there that are the exception to the rule. But for the most part, after 20 years of marriage, you will still love your spouse deeply, find them attractive, respect them, have great sex etc, but if someone starts flirting with them and they are at all open to it, there is a an exciting giddiness there that usually is hard to replicate in a decades long marriage.
My FW seems practically addicted to attention. And NEW attention is something that after decades, I was not going to be able to compare to. The AP was younger than me and she was pretty, but I don’t think that was the real point. I think it was that “new crush excitement” that he wanted.
Of course the saddest part there is that it will wear off for them too. He blew up his marriage for someone that he isn’t even WITH now. Now he has a new gf and is once again in the crazy exciting new phase. And then she’ll likely be the next one he cheats on.
I used to think he blew up our family, he blew up our marriage. I now think of DDay as the day I learned I didn’t have a family, I didn’t have a marriage. I had a MIRAGE.
That is a BRILLIANT answer!
To the individual entering into it, a marriage is very likely the most important and significant arrangement that they will enter into. Infidelity apologists and forgiveness proponents seem to think we should hold a spouse to a lower standard than we would an employee, coworker, salesperson, customer, etc. There’s no way we would be expected to forgive an employee having sex in the bathroom, or a salesperson committing fraud, or a customer stealing. Yet if these things happen in a marriage, we are expected to forgive and get over it?
Well put!
It’s a trap!
Obviously-A-Cheater pulled a head fake. He cites to an article about one survey of a specific group of people – divorcing couples with children in a specific county in Minnesota in 2008 – who gave the ‘most common reasons’ for seeking divorce. The abstract doesn’t tell us anything about whether they gave other reasons, or the degree to which cheating was involved in their divorces.
And from that, he wants us to generalize that “people” universally are breaking up because they just plain ol’ grew apart.
He also invites you to do his research by googling all of these studies that supposedly support his argument. No thanks, Obviously-A-Cheater!
He also skipped over this:
Thank you! I noticed that too, and it really bothered me.
My STBX never said this to my knowledge but funnily enough, I did say something like that, to him, when he’d come back trying to bamboozle me into letting him move back in.
What I actually said was ” We went “like that!” and pointed one arm one way and the other arm the other way. He didn’t really respond because I suspect he likes to think of it as me being trapped at home and “stuck in the mud” like a ould biddy, whilst he got out and about having a good time and partying! I suspect he saw himself as the exciting one and me as boring, what with my going to Mass and praying and utter contempt and hatred of cocaine and aversion to hanging round with criminal types!
Me gesturing that I had also been moving away from him seemed to confuse him a bit and no doubt, he didn’t like it! It’s the way I see it though and TBH now I can see we were never on a level with each other, he merely pretended to think and believe like me, to care about the things I care about. I married down. I always knew it but pushed the thought away when it came because I felt bad for thinking it. I now know it wasn’t me being a snob or anything like that, it was just a plain, simple fact and it was to do with integrity and moral codes and our very different characters!
I hate to say it but I think I married down too. A lot of Chumps actually do. We are kind of embarrassed to admit it because it does sound snobbish but I think on the whole when you evaluate us, the Chumps usually have a lot more on the ball in various ways.
I would argue that probably every formerly married chump through history, “married down.” It’s not a fun thing to say about our lives and choices, but I think it is the truth.
We either missed red flags that should have alerted us to our fuckwits shitty character, or were fooled by them to a fair degree. Probably a bit of both for a lot of us, I’d guess.
It’s still not on us. They chose to act like immature teenagers. We gave our whole heart to them and the relationship. Not perfectly. Doesn’t exist. But the best we could. They could have left the relationship in a morally and ethically correct way. They freely chose not to. That’s ALL on them, and their unilateral decisions.
My younger daughter gets it, I think. I took her to Costco sometime around a year or so ago. As we were heading back to the car in the parking lot, we saw a bumper sticker on a car that said something like, “It’s the ten COMMANDMENTS, not the ten SUGGESTIONS.”
Neither of us is religious at all, but she said she agreed w/that. That gives me some hope.😊
“irreconcilable differences” A huge euphemism.
I my ex’s case it was short for, I have been cheating, lying and financially abusing my chump for years and I couldn’t get my chump to file and do my dirty work for me.
When I went quiet when a cousin asked why I divorced, he discreetly offered “Oh, I see. Irreconcilable differences.”
Then I said “Yeah. Irreconcilable differences called [Schmoopie’s name].”
But I’m going to take your word for it — that when social scientists ask, people give “we grew apart” as their stock divorce answer.
In my age bracket (“grey” divorces) women end up living below the poverty line 27% of the time. Seems to me “we grew apart” sounds more like a cover story for a woman who is stuck with a nondisparagement clause. Seems to me she’s facing the loss of what little support she has, if she responds honestly.
I learned from a longtime mutual friend that my cheating ex did say the “we grew apart” line and added “we had communication problems, OBND couldn’t move past my inappropriate friendship, and is dealing with unforgiveness”.
Yeah, that ‘inappropriate friendship’ was a 3-year vow-destroying romantic affair that he CHOSE to grow into while CHOOSING to devalue and neglect me at the same time.
I’m surprised he acknowledge that it was “inappropriate”, in which case the question would be….well….if you knew it was inappropriate, why didn’t you END it?
He later disclosed that they mutually attempted to dial things down, so he didn’t understand why I was upset. “We tried to end things and lightened up a bit, why can’t you move on?”
I think that he only has just enough self-awareness to know that something is inappropriate but not enough to do away with the thrill in deceiving me and getting one over on me. It was all about the power. That and how he could later push his narrative that he’s just a clueless, impulsive relational dunce so “please feel sorry for me.”
Well….I TRIED to stop drinking and I cut it down from a bottle of vodka a day to half a bottle and why aren’t you happy now????? I mean really….
“Inappropriate friendship” and “Dealing with unforgiveness”? Was always such a pompous git? What a tosser!
Unfortunately, yes – he was always a pompous git but I’ve only truly seen this in recent years. Thankfully I see it now and am getting close to meh.
Excellent commentary that most sane people don’t do shot gun divorce (infidelity, DV not withstanding). I’m sure my ex would say we grew apart, I would say she, as a SAHM, fricked her homeless, unemployed, alcoholic second cousin whose only income from when she got into a relationship with him until he croaked 13 years later was $700/ month disability (I have the pics).
She completely nuked our family for her relationship with AP. She wanted and got out immediately, never mind a 10 year marriage, two kids under 6, horse farm, etc.
I will never ever understand this kind of behavior, it doesn’t make rational sense. But I guess that’s the level she felt comfortable at. As crazy as it sounds, there ARE people who prefer to remain homeless than work and have a place to live. I don’t understand it, but I’ve seen it. I guess you don’t need to live up to anything at that level.
(music by Billy Idol, lyrics by Chump Nation Song Parody Machine)
Last night, I needed reasons for my marriage’s demise
Last night, I wanted answers for my fuckwit’s lying eyes
He said, “Hello chumpy, we’ve got a study for you
It’s from Minnesota, and spells out the truth”
Because. . .
[Chorus]
Euphemisms say, “You grew apart, part part!”
And Zalkreb’ll yell, “You grew apart, part, part!”
Euphemisms say, “You grew apart, part part!”
And Zalkreb’ll yell, “You grew apart, part, part!”
It don’t like likely, it don’t resonate
And it sounds like bullshit, the kind that I hate
A-what brought you here to make this to-do, ‘Kreb?
What brought you here? Are you a cheater too?
Because
[Chorus]
Well, yes, when people self report they are going to generally going to under-report the truth if there is any measure of ego, pride, or discomfort involved. We do it all the time. People ask how you are doing and you say “ok” when you’re really not. There is of course a difference here. There’s a whole class of people that significantly underreport things that they have done wrong in our culture. If they are lucky, somebody put money on their books so they can get commissary.
THEY didn’t do anything wrong either. That guy JUST HAPPENED to already have bullets in him I guess?
I mean, it’s not like fuckwits lie or use deception or anything. Or engage in victim blaming.
Of course I’m in denial! 10 months ago I learned from the best friend I ever had that apparently nobody owes you loyalty or the truth or kindness or safety or love and that the chaos and hate in the world even extends to your own home. I wanted to believe better in humanity but here we are.
We did factually grow apart. She went and got her needs met elsewhere while I Pick-Me Danced and thought I could love her more strongly and that would “fix things.” I had the uncommon audacity to have moments of weakness and needs and to be able to be vulnerable and honest about how I feel about certain things. I required effort-I guess all of the PTO I took so she could see her family and go to appointments and effort I put into running a household by myself so she could get her needs met elsewhere guilty free was just…I dunno…expected? Nice of me to do?
Yup. Denial. Clearly.
It’s stuff like this that reminds me that some people peaked in high school and never emotionally progressed that point where life is a bunch of hedonistic self aggrandizing bullshit.
Have a Fuckwit Free Friday!
And a happy Father’s Day to all of my Brother Chumps and Single Mom Chumps out there!
Yes, the self-focus and hedonism. I still don’t understand how my ex could retire and then take off to “reinvent” as a single man. It doesn’t fit with my own history and emotional make-up.
More than a few times, I commented to my divorce attorney, “How can he possibly do this given our decades together?” My attorney celebrated his 40th anniversary during my divorce. His wife was the business manager of the firm, and he clearly adored her.
He’d crack his wry smile and say, “Because he can.”
Yes, people can ultimately do what they want, regardless of the wreckage left behind. I get that now.
And despite all the nasty comments about how single moms are inadequate and can’t bring kids properly into adulthood — mine turned out just fine.
I have known several single moms who have turned out kids that are pretty solid. Won’t say the experience hasn’t been difficult for them in various ways – the kids I mean, the Moms – obviously – but the kids are strong, and honest and they love their moms. Most single parents do the best they can in the worst circumstances and WITH VERY LITTLE SOCIETAL SUPPORT OR ENCOURAGEMENT!!!
Yes, a lot of people don’t want others getting up in their business and/or it’s just too painful or complicated to talk about especially if you’re a ranter….like me, LOLOLOL. When their eyes start glazing over and they start remembering that they have to wash their poodle, you know many folks don’t really want to know and unless it’s important that someone know the truth, an all purpose line “we grew apart” can be useful. I prefer something like….I didn’t like his girlfriend…but I’m a bitch anyway. But we can always rely on people like Zagreb and Company to try to minimize the impact and importance of cheating. Because we just….take it too seriously…..it’s just like having a hot dog, right?
Happy Father’s Day especially to all our male Chumps out there, and thank you for being the stand up guys you are!
I just saw this phrase used recently about some celebrity losers who are getting divorced because they’re cheating on each other and….”they just grew apart”….yeah, because when you’re fucking other people that does tend to happen.
It’s funny going back and looking at Zagreb’s (or whatever his name is) comments to CL about what causes divorce. It has been known for ages and I just saw a big divorce attorney confirm it again…the 2 biggest factors in divorce are infidelity and finances. Not to say there can’t be others including the famous “we just grew apart”….but the most common are infidelity and financial problems, and sometimes those 2 are linked. The thing with infidelity especially is that people WILL often try to get past it because they’re relentlessly shoved in that direction over and over, and it would be easier if you COULD….but people usually end up finding out that they CAN’T. Once you know, you know, and you are never going to view them the same way again and the relationship never has the same depth, or innocence or trust or possibilities it once did and the proof of that is….let him or her have a late night at the office, or an extended talk with the neighbor or a lot of late night texting, etc, etc. Right away the suspicions and those feelings come RIGHT BACK. Ask me how I know. Even years later. So….sometimes the breakdown of the marriage seems disconnected to the original cheating on the face of it, but it’s like termites eating at the foundation. Eventually that’s gonna crumble.
My guess is that Zagreb was a cheater himself, trying to minimize the impact of cheating, as they do, and blaming other things for the breakdown of marriages. Marriage can survive a LOT of bad shit, it really can….but I don’t know if it ever really survives cheating. Anything maybe more than a 1 night stand (and usually it isn’t just a one night stand anyway.) It makes you anxious and wary and somehow the marriage isn’t as much worth fighting for, even for the kids. The undertones are not healthy for kids to grow up in. Sorry Zagreb.
“My guess is that Zagreb was a cheater himself, trying to minimize the impact of cheating, as they do, and blaming other things for the breakdown of marriages.”
Exactly my thoughts.
Yes. I am deaf to the lectures of “forgiveness.” The lectures are condescending, and it assumes that we all just skipped right over the forgiveness stage and went right to divorce. I was pressured to forgive, and guess what happen? She. Never. Stopped. I lost seven very valuable years on this planet catering to “forgiveness.” At some point you are no longer “forgiving,” you’re just a chump in denial who is shackled to an a$$hole.
The wasband grew apart, but he forgot to inform me. I later learned that he informed all and sundry of the grown-apartness, and still not me. Funny thing is, I call that lying! Kind of like his comment after the fact that, “he just didn’t feel married to me anymore.” Orlly?? Yeah, anyone who takes to word of a guy who flagrantly blows up his 25 year+ relationship, and his child’s life too, is not what I would call reliable. But I’m funny that way.
I too found out the same from others.
It was news to me.
Mine said something like that when we were separated and still talking by phone at times. Really? I still feel VERY married and broken apart because my other half is living in another state by HIS CHOICE.
That didn’t go over well, to say the least.
“I still feel VERY married and broken apart”–this, in my experience, is one of the worst, worst effects of cheating. By the time D-Day comes, the cheater has had the time to gradually detach himself from the marriage, while the chump has had no advance warning and feels like she’s been thrown into quicksand. (Then if the cheater is a really awful person, he’ll sit back calmly and ask her why she can’t “get over it.”)
I’ve personally experienced the “people divorce willy-nilly” crap, particularly with church people. A few have actually pointed that if I gave him more sex and better dinners, he might not have taken off. Really? As if that is all it takes to “save” a marriage that is headed down a dark whirlpool. Magic thinking, anyone? At this point, I don’t engage with that type of weird comment. It’s not worth it.
It wasn’t that we “grew apart” either. It was that all of the assumptions of the marriage were shattered, and his mental health and addiction issues had taken me to the breaking point. Given the comments he made when we were splitting and who he paired up with, l was “not his type” any more. What a horrific thing to say to your wife of several decades.
Now, he is “free” to do whatever with whomever. Good for him, but keep me out of it.
Oh Elsie
How can people say such terrible things?
I wonder if any will regret being so smug one day.
“What a horrific thing to say to your wife of several decades”
Right? I mean they have lied and conned for years; why can’t they just shut up and leave. Mine did the same thing, had to make sure I knew our whole 21 year marriage was a sham from the get/go. Thinking back it is just weird.
I mean if I had a friend that I used to get on with, but it wasn’t working anymore; I wouldn’t have been that cruel in dissolving the friendship.
Religion was a significant factor in mine. For all intents and purposes, divorce was the unpardonable sin in his family.
And yet he used it to bludgeon me behind closed doors, “If you don’t shape up, I’ll divorce you.” And sometimes he’d add, “I’ll make you homeless, living in the van with the kids.” A local attorney took out full-page ads in the local paper, and my now-ex pointed to those a few times, “That’s who I’ll use to divorce you.” Yes, the $700/hour pitbull who had been on CNN.
So when he regularly began talking about how far I felt short in his eyes, I figured it was just a matter of time. It was. And I knew what attorney he would use and picked appropriately.
What a nice guy – gonna make you and MY CHILDREN homeless and living in a van. Down by the river, no doubt. Who would not be enticed to stay with that?
Yes, that would have been a good time to say — GO AHEAD AND TRY, but I didn’t. One time he gave me the silent treatment for over a week after that and then was all apologetic “because the Holy Spirit convicted me.” Of course, I went through h*ll and back that week. THEN he wanted to go to a winery for lunch as if that wiped away the threat forever. Nope, it came back (of course).
What a glorious thing it is to be free though. I did errands this morning with my dog and am now sitting with her on the back porch eating lunch. My kid, who still lives with me, is off hiking with friends. What a lovely Saturday it is to be happily divorced!
Yay! This reminds me to truly relish the freedom.
I read on here that if you interview an attorney, even if you don’t hire that attorney, your spouse can’t then hire him or her. I’d have interviewed as soon as he’d made the threat. Can’t hurt to have the info anyway; can help. And if that attorney can’t see you, you’ll know to get in gear and find someone good.
I wish that I had known that. The threats of using that attorney spanned fifteen years. But I didn’t know that, and my ex had already gotten started with him when I started interviewing attorneys myself. The attorney I hired mentioned that “conflicting out” would have prevented my ex from using that attorney, but I was ignorant. That said, the one I went with had thirty years of experience with my STBX’s attorney and assured me, “I know all his games. He’ll fight like crazy and then get bored if we resist.” That’s what happened.
My ex’s attorney was on wife #3 and was known locally for having fooled around with his clients for years. It was so bad that it made the largest metropolitan newspaper when marriage #2 fell apart. She was his law partner. He was also known for skirting ethics and badgering people so hard in court that he made them cry.
We did indeed get it settled though, and my ex’s attorney was reasonable after that during closeout.
I think it’s a burning bridges thing – when someone wants to do something, make some change, or has some pressure (like from an OW) to make a change – sometimes they go overboard in being vicious and rotten just to make sure there’s no way back. Frequently I think they end up regretting this, but I think this sometimes comes into play. Of course, it may also be a lot of the other negative emotions they have inside them coming to an ugly boil, but I have to think it’s the burning bridges idea too. No going back for anyone – it is so destructive but It gets the job done for them. After you’ve been treated like that….you don’t WANT to go back even if they regret it later.
“I think it’s a burning bridges thing ”
I totally agree. And yes I do think once you have experienced that, you just can’t go back.
I did let him come back about 2 month (ish) after all that. I honestly knew in real time that it wasn’t a good idea, but for some reason I felt I owned it to myself and all those years. I knew the moment he walked into the house this was a stranger to me. I told him to leave in less than a week. He was only using me anyway as I figured out later.
He tried to call a few times after that to “talk”, I no’d my way through it all. I was done.
I think you needed that last time just to “be sure”. It’s such an enormous and final step, and I think you knew even if you didn’t put it into thoughts, that this would be the last time. Like that old Rolling Stones song. The last time really solidifies it in your mind, and you KNOW from top to toe that you’re doing the right thing. When you combine that with “burning bridges” …well, you crossed that burning bridge and there’s a new country on the other side, and that can be exciting too. Sadly enough, I think that sometimes the better the relationship was originally, the worse the burning bridges phenomenon is because there is so much to tear down and destroy. If they would only put that energy into rebuilding, but for many of them it seems to be the only way they can make change in their dissatisfied lives. The illusion that something or someone new will make it all work out. It doesn’t because….an FW is still at the center of it, creating change but not mastering it.
Yep, when you thought you had your person, it is difficult. But as I have learned there is no “person”. What is takes is two people committed, one just can’t do it alone.
My attorney said my ex was probably burning the bridges the way he did to make himself feel like he still had power over me — she doesn’t want to be married to me anymore, but I’ll SHOW HER WHO IS KING. ME-ME-ME!
I’ve shared here before that certain people at church were praying that we’d get back together because my ex preached there, and they loved his sermons. Well, nearly seven years later, there’s zero possibility of me agreeing to that. Zero!
Thanks @Leedy and @Mehitable.
It was truly devastating behavior. He had promised, “Quick and easy because I will always love you.” I laughed. Then he emailed me the next day, “Nothing to worry about.”
I knew that was a lie, thankfully. It was a mess.
“She doesn’t want to be married to me anymore, but I’ll SHOW HER WHO IS KING”–I was subjected to this too, and it was one of the most devastating things I’ve been through in my life. It felt like he was trying to annihilate me.
It’s funny how so many “religious” people cheat and do the most awful things to their spouses and kids. Like they recognize these things are wrong, or they may understand things on a mental level….but not an emotional one.
What an idiotic (and condescending) statement. I wonder if he is such a serious researcher that the subject group was participants in MANDATED parenting groups who self-reported. This is an opinion poll more than actual science.
In his convulsive post-d-day confessions, FW admitted he was being coached on what to say to me during the big DARVO/gaslighting stage by the AP. It seems the AP did the usual bait and switch about six months into the affair, stopped pretending to be in it for a casual no strings fling and began throwing histrionic confrontations pressuring FW to divorce and punishing him if he didn’t follow through. He would respond with the usual excuses and she would counter with coaching– “Just tell her you’ve grown apart!” etc. She also apparently originated some of the bizarre accusations and aspersions on my character that FW started flinging around.
.
It solved the mystery of why FW– who’d never been a self-help reader and never typically used soap opera-y language like this– kept spouting all these cheesy cliches that didn’t fit the circumstances and sounded suspiciously like they’d been formed by committee. It explained why he seemed utterly unprepared to do the things that would obviously follow these statements like separate and divorce and seemed totally shocked that I drew that inference. It also solved the mystery of why many of accusations and aspersions were so cartoonish and inaccurate that a lot of them left me scratching my head and worried for his sanity even more than being hurt. Like the idea that I would accidentally-on-purpose try to get pregnant (me, who– after three kids– begged him to get snipped for years???) to further “trap” him in the marriage. That had also come from the AP when she was haranguing him to stop having sex with me– on the grounds I would try to get pregnant. And, no surprise, it’s exactly what she attempted to do herself when all other tactics failed to expedite divorce.
I wasn’t that mystified by some of the other things FW spewed at me during the gaslighting stage because I knew these were things that came verbatim from his mother who was his original triangulating “abuse coach.” The interesting thing is that he’d always complained about his mother’s emotionally incestuous history of attacking and competing with everyone he’d ever dated. He’d actually cut contact with his mother about a year before the affair because that behavior had completely spun out of control and turned into a smear campaign that was isolating all of us from extended family and old friends. But it seemed that, for all his objections and rejections of his mother’s attacks on me, he’d stored up all those jibes and psychobabble condemnations and then began barfing them on me during the affair. And when I would say, “Wow, you sound just like your mother” he would look suddenly confused as if he truly believed these were his original thoughts. He even forgot he’d repeated to me the things his mother had said.
I know it sounds like I’m wandering into the trap of blaming women for male abuse but I actually see it as much scarier than that. FW basically turned into Norman Bates during his affair. Hitchcock fans will remember that Bates actually killed his own mother for taking a lover (thwarted dependency) and then sort of “framed” his mother for his own aggression by expressing it in mommy-drag. Hitchcock’s counter-Freudian twist was that it was Bates who– while at first appearing to be in thrall to his dead mommy’s legacy of hate and under its spell– was driving all of it. By the same token, the second FW broke contact with his mother and lost the sacred triangle and mommy-beard for his own aggression, he ran out to find an exact replica of his mommy to feed him ammo, taglines and cliched rationales.
I’d never previously realized that FW’s mother and other women who compulsively triangulate like this might actually be performing what they believe is an expected service or pickme dance for relevance in men’s lives– by, say, using their “insider knowledge” of what is particularly hurtful and crushing towards women (which a self absorbed narcissist dude might not have the insight to formulate on his own) in order to help men more effectively abuse women. If the proxy abuse is believed to be only competitive, it misses how people trained from birth to expect men to be abusive to women might knee-jerkedly try to divert male aggression to other scapegoats.
CL calling these types “Vichy women” really nails it because, after all, the Nazis were really in full control of the situation. It’s the attack dog’s owner who’s held liable for dog maulings. It’s the farmer who overfed the prize winning 800lb pig who gets sued when the massive thing plows through hurricane fences and kills the neighbor’s kid or livestock.
Not that the “pigs” and collaborators are innocent by any means. Something I noticed about my ex-MIL and heard about the AP that might be relevant to male chumps who’ve dealt with nastiness from she-FWs is how exMIL and the AP would brutally mock and disparage men who weren’t abusers or didn’t cross ethical lines. Some people kind of grow to love their monsters and disparage non-monsters. It could explain why many female FWs end up rejecting loyal good providers in favor of creepy knuckle-dragging thugs.
Thank you for this. My fuckwit says we grew apart. We grew apart because Ashley Madison was a part of his daily life and he had zero interest in our kids and refused to be part of the solution as our teen struggled with mental illness. It’s been 5 years. My mentally ill kid is now an adult with a full-time job and a lovely girlfriend. My youngest just graduated high school and is off to college on a sport scholarship. Guess who helped the kids through all this. I DID and alone. My kids started to thrive when I left. I wanted nothing more than to be with him as we were in our middle 50’s but I could not live the rest of my life being cheated on and ignored.
One of my kids had significant mental health issues as well. And my ex pointed to that as a reason why our marriage imploded. I was like, no, real parents work together when that sort of thing happens to get them to the other side. It is not a threat to the marriage unless you are looking to make it that, which he was. And he was very much a part of that kid’s problems, BTW.
And yes, said kid is doing perfectly fine and has worked through the majority of their issues. After graduating from college, they even picked a different therapist on their own and paid for it themselves.
Same here. My daughter had severe OCD growing up (which is much milder now that she’s an adult), and her narcissistic dad made the situation way worse. Once when she was about 11, she said to her psychiatrist (at a meeting I was at, which her dad had scooted out of early), “My dad hates me because I’m sick.” And at another time, the school counselor said, in a time when she was really struggling psychologically, “[FW] has a way of throwing gasoline on the fire.”
Me three. My daughter was extremely mentally ill and was suicidal when the bastard decided to cheat. She would run out of the house to try to kill herself. I ran after her, but FW continued reading a book as if nothing was wrong. I dealt with it for years with little or no help from him. At one point I had to watch her 24/7 to keep her from commiting suicide. Naturally I got no sleep. FW didn’t even offer to take a shift so I could sleep. I’m still helping her all by myself (anxiety, depression, ADD and OCD as well as cerebral palsy) though she is no longer feeling suicidal since we left FW. That’s not a coincidence, since she says she feels so much lighter. She is a delight and it’s no sacrifice at all.
FWs are bad for their children.
It’s so good to hear you and I Count’s kids are doing so well.
Wow. Now we have a majority.
My kid who struggled that way lives on their own now, but periodically gives me parenting props in cards that mean so much more than anything the ex wrote in a Mother’s Day card:
But yes, FWs are bad for their children, not just us. I wish that were emphasized more, but it’s not, other than here.
Aw, that is so sweet. Good parents need no reward or praise, but it’s certainly wonderful when you get it.
A FW, otoh, is someone who believes he/she/they deserves praise for somebody else’s efforts. If your kid turns out well in spite of the bad parenting of the cheater, FW will still want the credit.
What pushed me to leave was my ex was going on and on about wanting an open marriage as our son was in his 5th behavioral hospital stay. Since I left not even one! I am so happy to read about your kids! Bravo to US and our kids.
Well, we are three more data points backing up the hypothesis that FWs damage their children’s mental health.
Many others here have written the same thing, so I would say we have a solid basis for this belief.
There are a lot of studies about the acute sensitivity many children have to coercive control dynamics within families, even before birth and even when they don’t directly witness abuse. Infants don’t know they’re separate beings from primary caregivers (usually mom) and, even later in childhood and even when caregivers attempt to shield children, kids still reportedly absorb and measurably react to even subtle biochemical, emotional and behavioral effects of adult stress and trauma.
At least one of the ways this is currently being studied is the effect on microbiome. Stress is a major factor known to alter the gut microbiota and gut barrier function, i.e., causing “leaky gut” which is linked to chronic disease and neurological issues. Furthermore, the same complicated cellular mayhem associated with “leaky gut” is also known to affect blood brain barrier permeability which is in turn associated with a long list of terrifying chronic conditions and possibly psychosis.
If you put together the fact that early life is a vulnerable period during which the gut microbiome shapes the immune and nervous system and brain development with newish research on how members of the same family (even pets) end up with nearly identical microbiomes, there’s an argument for how– even if an abused parent manages to glue a good face on it and somehow keep a child from witnessing any abuse– the abused parent’s trauma may still be “communicable” to children through alterations in the parent’s microbiome, not to mention that children may be impacted in more extreme ways than adults. It also makes sense that, when the main caregiver is made safe and their stress is reduced, children’s microbiomes would predictably improve along with any related medical or neurological effects of damaged microbiota. There’s even some clinical evidence that healing “leaky gut” can also improve BBB permeability.
In other words, biochemical symbiosis may stymie an abused parent’s best efforts to shield children from ongoing trauma. According to the theory that we all have “biological intuition” and are subconsciously aware of subtle physical states of ourselves and our children even when we’re not consciously aware of these things, fear of post-separation abuse– which could arguably increase symbiotic effects on the health of already ailing children’s health– might explain why some abused parents waffle and hesitate to escape. But, in the end, the best “cure” seems to be to escape the source of trauma. LACGAL indeed.
That’s fascinating. I know about leaky gut, but I hadn’t heard it could cause psychosis.
I get my gut microbes tested every so often and I take a ton of probiotics.
From the NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9227193/
Despite the inconsistency in microbiome composition changes reported in various studies, the existing evidence strongly suggests significant microbiome alterations in schizophrenic subjects compared to healthy controls and outlines the microbiome’s significant role in the onset, development, pathology, symptom severity, as well as global functioning, disease progression and treatment response in schizophrenia.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20231019/How-the-gut-microbiome-contributes-to-schizoprhrenia.aspx
The association between psychosis and microbiome is “under investigation” by the NIH which I interpret to mean there’s probably compelling enough evidence of a relationship but, because the antipsychotic drug market works like a virtual insurance program for the pharmaceutical industry (no matter what else happens in the drug market, no matter how many Vioxx scandals and lawsuits and failed drug launches, people enduring psychosis will be institutionalized and forcibly drugged), that investigation has probably been slowed down by politics.
Yeah, who would think that have a cheating, controlling, lying, self centered bully would have an effect on his kids’ mental health.
Maybe this shows that the Wreck-on saying “Stay for the kids” should be changed to “Leave for the kids”.
I like that slogan. We’d be swimming against the tide to try to get that idea across in a big way, though. The belief that staying in a shitty marriage is better for kids than divorce seems to be deeply entrenched. I don’t doubt that divorce can hurt kids, because it’s so often contentious, especially with a FW. There’s a way to go about it where the kids still feel safe, but it takes both parents so it’s not going to happen when you’re divorcing a cheater.
Staying in a horror show of a marriage, IMO, hurts them more. The pain of divorce is finite, but the damage done by modelling dysfunction is lifelong.
YES. I am sure of it. I was so scared when we divorced and that it would be bad for them because you read about kids of divorce nope they started to thrive and struggled a little at first but as reiterated it was ok to love someone even if you don’t agree with how they act and it’s ok to have distance too. It helped a lot.
Yes, ‘We grew apart” is what my ex wanted for me to tell our son. I refused to do that, although I also didn’t tell the truth to my son about my closeted then-husband, who had been “exploring” his gender identity (fetish cross-dressing, that is) with a former student (the cheating part). I told our son we were divorcing because of his father had been keeping a marriage changing secret from me, and then said my son could ask his father about it if he wanted.
Several years later, when my ex got involved with another woman, one I knew (and had formerly respected), I told her about my ex’s secret life. After that, and probably because my ex feared I’d told my son the truth and wanted to spin it to his favor, he told our son.
It was a huge weight off my shoulders that my son finally knew the truth, and we have been able to have several conversations about it.
Also: when we were divorcing my now-ex delivered himself of these gems, too: “Our problem was communication, but I didn’t feel like I could talk to you” (the blame shift move),and “Our son doesn’t need to know about his parents’ sex life” (the minimize and distort move).
I’ll bet your son was able to see through that latter blame-splitting spin. Yeah, er, mom was such a bummer since she wasn’t turned on by dad’s full Brunhilda-the-Nazi-hooker regalia.
Not that I’m disparaging cross-dressers or individuals of any nonviolent sexual persuasion who are up front with partners. But considering how sadistic and blameshifting your ex was, to quote Silence of the Lambs, “Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a transsexual. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying.”
I laughed at your Brunhilda description, but it was actually more like “Lola”–https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQv2sq6jEhU
Gwen Verdon was probably rolling in her grave lol. But she’d give you special dispensation to do her “Single Ladies” number. 😉 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN7ZW09rA9s
But it wasn’t “his parents” sex life….it was Dear Old Dad’s.
Exactly.
“The major cause of divorce is female feelings of lack of emotional fulfillment, i.e., feeling unappreciated, lacking a feeling of closeness, lacking adequate communication.”
Those can certainly be signs of cheating. When your spouse is not communicating, is not appreciating you and the emotional intimacy is gone, you may very well have a cheating spouse. You definitely have somebody who doesn’t love you as you should be loved. Leaving because your spouse doesn’t seem to love you is not “growing apart.” So Zigzag (or whatever his name is) defeated his own argument there. Growing apart is developing different priorities, a different way of life from your spouse. Example; you want quiet, unobtrusive country life and your spouse wants big city life and the social whirl. You can’t stand that way of life and he can’t stand yours. Then you’ve grown apart. It’s also something people give as a reason for divorce because they don’t want to put the the deep, painful stuff out there, even to researchers.
It’s one thing to quote research and quite another to interpret the findings, and Zigzag seems to be lacking in the second, in addition to being a grade A pompous douchebag. I wonder if Zigzag is a cheater desperate to deny that cheating ends marriages, because then he has to admit to the destructive nature of what he does. Considering his unreasoning anger at CL after she first published this, I think that’s a fair hypothesis.
Anyway, I have no doubt my FW tells people who don’t already know he’s a cheater that we “grew apart.”
That’s one of the excuses he used for cheating. FW’s priorities had certainly changed. I just didn’t know about it. He hid most of his drinking as well as all of his cheating and porn use, all three of which had become his top priorities. That’s not growing apart though, because it isn’t growth. It’s descent into debauchery.
Maybe cheating (by him) didn’t end HIS marriage 🤷♀️but regardless Z sounds for all intents and purposes like a cheater.
I find his argument a bit straw mannish too. Or should I say straw male-ish?
It is within a person’s rights to end a marriage for whatever reason, I just don’t get why he is so upset with CL when cheating is one of the best reasons there is to get divorced.
Like what is the actual point he is trying to make? Is there one? If a spouse is being treated badly (even if they are unaware their partner is cheating) it’s the spouse’s right to not want to be married anymore. The end.
Cheating might be the real reason but “female feelings” of being unappreciated are also valid too. Those things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
But therein lies the rub. He doesn’t like it when his spouse has “feelings” about and maybe enforces consequences for his behavior. The reasons are neither here nor there — he is just entitled.
Honestly, this may seem shallow, but as soon as someone uses the word “females” to refer to women, I immediately tune out.
Yeah, it always sounds like what they really want to say is “them damned wimmins.”
That’s not shallow. It’s often used in a tone of disdain by misogynists, which I suspect Zigzag is, based on his rage- fueled response to CL after she posted this. I can just picture him sneering as he’s saying “female feelings” when he vocalizes the same statement. The intended implication is that those feelings are irrational, as if it’s too much to expect that a man communicate like an adult, appreciate you and offer emotional intimacy.
I could see Z being a serial cheater whose wife finally dumped him and he’s just so pissed off at her and CL because “you uppity womins don’t know yer place!” Make me a sandwich AAAAAARRGGGHH. Definite cheatertalk though.
Ahem.
“The most commonly reported major contributors to divorce were lack of commitment, infidelity, and conflict/arguing.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012696/
Top three reasons individuals gave for divorce;
Lack of commitment 75.0
Infidelity or extramarital affairs 59.6
Too much conflict and arguing 57.7
I’m sure I can find other studies with similar findings, but Zigzag isn’t here to have his drivel refuted, so why bother.
I love Nomar’s comment from 11 years ago:
Nomar
11 years ago
People trying to avoid well-deserved blame often cast events in the passive voice. “We grew apart?” Really? And what ACTIONS/CHOICES put the distance between you? That’s where the horse is burried.
“We grew apart” is to cheating spouses what “shit happens” is to slacker-stoners and “mistakes were made” is to failed generals.
All kinds of awkward language arises from perpetrators’ attempts to distance themselves from their own crimes. The transitive verb form of disappear (“to be disappeared”) began exactly like that when the leader of the gory Argentine military dictatorship went on television and infamously called the state’s victims “the disappeared.” “The disappeared are an incognita… as long as they remain disappeared, they can’t have special treatment, for they are disappeared; they’ve no entity, they’re neither dead nor alive, they’re disappeared: we can’t do anything about it.”
He died– oops, was “disappeared”– in prison.
Data analysis, source; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012696/
“The next most often cited major contributing factor to divorce was infidelity, endorsed by 59.6% of individuals and by at least one partner in 88.8% of couples. Of those couples who had a least one partner report infidelity as a reason for divorce, only 31.3% represented couples in which both partners agreed that infidelity was a major contributor to the dissolution of their marriage. Thus, the majority of couples with apparent infidelity in their relationships only had one partner mention it as a contributing factor to their divorce. Overall, infidelity was often cited as a critical turning point in a deteriorating relationship.”
Well, we know what that discrepancy is about. The chump reported infidelity as the cause and the cheater reported some bullshit, because cheaters lie.
I was told “we grew apart” after she kicked me out of the bedroom and told me she didn’t want to see me or talk to me. Any growing apart was her choice, and the passiveness of that statement boggles the mind, as if she had no agency. And she had the balls to accuse me of being passive.
I think a big part of why they say that is the denial of any responsibility for their actions and shows how they don’t have a conscience or have remorse. Maybe they actually believe that BS, but in the end we know better.
I find the “grow apart” thing not only euphemistic but kind of paradoxical. In what way does it represent “growth”– as in, you know, “learning” and progressive personal development– for a forty-six year old academic snob and father of three minor kids to blow $40K of the latter’s college funds on a drunken affair with an underling who thinks Ontario is a US state? Was he studying life among marginally educated provincial barflies? The effects of chronic porn use and day drinking on liver and erectile function?
Speaking of which, maybe “growth” was just a reference to his resulting Viagra dependency? Otherwise I didn’t see any personal growth during his affair.
While in the divorce process. I asked what FW was going to tell people and he said that he would say “we grew apart”. I on the other hand told him that I was going to telll people that he slept with many different women in our 22 year marriage. He of course did not like my answer.
The math isn’t mathing and the cheatersplaining is through the roof. Maybe someone mentioned this already. I glanced at the survey and saw that it did not solely look at cheating couples. Cheating couples range from 10-50% of all married couples. More consistently the number hovers around 20%
Cheatersplainer failed to mention that multiple answers were accepted. Cheating got 37%. “My spouse’s leisure activities” got 17%, maybe it’s a euphemism (LOL).
Non cheater couples = 80% = 709 people
Cheater couples = 20% = 177 people
Grew apart – 55% = 487/886 people
Can’t talk – 53% = 470/ 886
Cheating – 37% = 328/886
But 328/886 is false because not all couples cheat. Only 177 could even answer yes to cheating being the reason if we used the 20% rule. BUT 328 people said cheating was the cause. If the higher percentage of 50% cheat, then 74% of cheaters leave because of cheating, much higher than the 55% grew apart reason.
SO likely more people cheat than admit AND cheater couples represent a much bigger proportion of divorcing couples.
Also, that cited study was also done 16 yrs ago, way before Snapchat. And it was solely couples with kids. So not a really good study to validate whether people divorce because of cheating or not.
The APA says 53% of cheating couples divorce within 5 yrs. 80% divorce if the cheater doesn’t own up. The numbers are all over the place depending on the source (as someone else noted).
But basically cheatersplainer is comparing 2 apples to a dozen and saying it really isn’t about cheating. For the cheater couples, it’s pretty much all about the cheating.
And “Growing Apart” often includes cheating anyway. Cheating is probably the last straw.
Not going to edit, but this happened years ago. Still think Z was comparing 1 apple to 5 to get the answer he likes.
Poor old pseudorationally misogynist Z lol.
No “growing apart;” we had a “communication problem.”
To Zalkreb’s credit, there were “female feelings of lack of emotional fulfillment, i.e., feeling unappreciated, lacking a feeling of closeness, lacking adequate communication.” They were particularly bad when (unbeknownst to me) FW had an AP. I wish I divorced over it, but as Chump Lady said, OF COURSE I didn’t.
I never considered filing for divorce until I caught him cheating. The female feelings just made it easier, once the decision was made, to let go of a FW and gain a life.
“The female feelings just made it easier”–I’m chuckling out loud! How I love CN.
Zalkreb (who’s smarter than everyone, even you! He’s got bippity boppity boo!) might not have yet seen or anticipated the Stanford study finding that 69% of divorces are triggered from women’s frustration over husband’s lack of participation in household chores and childcare. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3209120/Men-start-pulling-weight-Women-likely-seek-divorce-fed-having-housework.html
I’ve frequently seen chumps, even some male chumps, describing how FWs– who may never have been particularly attentive to family duties to begin with– dropped the ball entirely during affairs. It seems to be a common theme that every type of unfairness or injustice tends to spike during cheating. If the correlation were ever studied, I’d even be willing to bet cheating probably contributes to a significant percentage of cases where there’s an imbalance of labor.
Obviously it should go without saying that, despite how politically important the issue of equal family labor is, failure to do one’s share still isn’t an excuse for a partner to cheat even if it’s a valid reason for some to honorably divorce.
Wow HOAC that’s an interesting read if not altogether surprising.
People used to say “you’re like a single mother,” when FW was constantly away and acted as the assistant parent when he was home. Honestly it’s easier since the divorce. If he wants to see the kids he has to take care of everything for them. I still end up doing all the administrative things for school, sports, doctor, etc. but it makes sense as I have them >50%.
I would never have divorced over just feeling unfulfilled and over worked, but it’s funny FW said on DDay “Well I thought you were going to divorce me anyway.” Like, you knew there was a problem…so instead of having a conversation and trying to improve things, you did the one thing that would actually make me divorce you? And then say you didn’t want a divorce? 🤔
Anyway divorce was one of the best decisions I ever made and I haven’t looked back once. Five stars, highly recommend.
I’m sure “I thought you were going to divorce me” sounds like just another way of reversing victim/offender.
It’s no small thing getting the bulk of the labor-labor on top of the emotional labor. I can certainly attest to the economics of women’s unpaid labor because I had to quit work when all three kids developed severe allergies/autoimmunity requiring everything be cooked from scratch and then had to homeschool– not by choice but because the school kept putting the kids at risk. When I could finally hire help, it took three people to do what I’d done alone for years.
When women work full time, it’s obviously just as heavy a load even with perfectly healthy kids who go to regular school. But I think it’s really the emotional labor dealing with a disordered adult that can push the stress right over the brink. This is probably why, statistically speaking, single women (even those with kids) tend to live longer than married ones. I’ve seen some more recent research trying to contradict that finding but I thought the funding sources suggested political agenda so I put more credence in the earlier studies. Now there needs to be another study to find out what the key factor is that could even that out: is it just the stress of having another adult around who doesn’t help or the fact the latter also comes with emotional abuse in some instances?
Now THAT would be an interesting study. We all know anecdotally what it was for us, but only in retrospect and after spending years… decades… in inequity.
Honestly I think the nuclear family is something we’re sold on but isn’t sustainable. Even in the couples with kids that seem to have a good relationship, it’s CRAZY what my coworkers, particularly moms, have to go through to keep up.
It’s probably no accident these studies don’t go far enough. Hi, can I have some money to investigate whether men shorten women’s lives by not only refusing to pick up after themselves and fairly participate in parenting but also being spooky, scary jerks about it in the process? I’d also like to pursue the followup theory that degree of spookiness and scariness correlates to cheating so I’ll be requesting further funding after completion of the first study.
[Click] Hello? Hello? Anyone there?
We grew apart 😢. Im cheating on you but I’m gonna lie, hide and deny.
It’s a great excuse and I’m gonna use it. Please don’t investigate or look at the phone bill.
Just swallow my lies😎
My wife is using the “we grew apart” language to our friend group. She wants me to use that language to. It’s about image control. She doesn’t want people to think she’s a bad person. I go along with it because I don’t want any more fights, and because we are still in the divorce process that has been civil so far. I don’t want to make things worse. She can have her image. I don’t care about that part anymore and frankly I don’t want to go to the mattresses (heh.) over her cheating because then it will become a campaign of who wronged who. I don’t have the energy to fight through that.
I’m sure she tells you that this is what she’s saying to people while, in actuality, she may be casting you as a villain to anyone who will listen. If you talk to other male chumps, it seems she-FWs have a special penchant for falsely accusing chumps of domestic abuse so watch your back.
As a lifelong feminist, it’s hard to concede that there are a minority of freaks out there who will falsely frame men for abuse and sexual harassment/ assault. But I’ve seen it happen a few times in work contexts and, in all three instances– voila– it was a mate-poacher/cheater type. No surprise I guess considering the social research points to the same disordered profile for both categories (framers/cheaters). In any case, if you find yourself “mysteriously” being treated like a pariah, becoming socially isolated and losing opportunities because of it, you’ll know why. If that happens, you might at some point consider being a bit more frank with key people about what your ex did to at least correct the context of her bs and protect yourself.
He told me today ‘it was a process’ when I said he was rewriting history that our marriage had been over for 3 yrs. It was only a year ago when I was asking him ‘what’s going on? Why are you pulling away? Acting like you aren’t married? I’m the last person on your list.’ He said ‘it’s not you, it’s me’ 🙄 was living like a teenager doing Darby and Joan life stuff. Told me 6 months ago he wanted ‘to separate, no one else involved, wanted to have no responsibilities, live as a single man.’ Single my ass! As the song goes. Within a week ‘dating’ someone he’s known from cycling club for 10 yrs. Within 3 weeks she’s given him a cockring anal vibrator with thrusting mechanism and he brought it into our home, hid the packaging and put it in his bedside top drawer. From the moment he told me he wanted to separate he had LIED. Non-stop. I have proof. But he still LIES! He told me today he hasn’t lied. It’s a joke. Like a completely different person. And his life is unravelling. He told me today ‘I’m on my arse!’ Do you expect me to feel sorry for you after 37 yrs and I get thrown away like a dirty tissue?? Good! I’m glad you’re feeling it. He looks OLD. I hate him. Spent today clearing the study. I think I kept every card he sent me and I sent him. Loving words, professing deep love. I have cried all day, but I know he’s not for me. And my heart is broken. Thank god my children are grown. But he’s not single. I’M SINGLE. He lives with her. But I’ve realised that after 6 months, I’m not scared anymore. I’m 60, but I can start a new life, while he’s trying to reimagine the same life without the effort.
My STBX told our daughter “he grew apart” that was news to me! I knew about his affair and kept the lid on if for a year.what I didnt know was it was really going on for 5 plus years! she lives 670 miles away and their relationship was mostly “virtual” including facetime sex. I did the pick me dance went to marriage counseling when I found our for sure he was involved with the OW. I bent over backwards to “save” our marriage. He played along while continuing his communication with her. Laughing with her about the FIRST time he got caught 24 years ago. After 6 months of constant anxiety and worry he would leave me and abandon his adult kids and grandkids I had enough. I couldnt eat or sleep. I lost 35 pounds and still cannot eat! I have zero appetite and still cant sleep!. My divorce was filed this week…. now I am anxiously waiting for him to be served. He lied right to my face over and over again. even when I offered a divorce amicably. Im 62 and like you married 37 years. I does hurt like hell but I know I am better off. NO MORE CAKE!. I saw him driving by last week, he looks old and miserable. None of his 4 kids are speaking to him-just like I told him would happen. they know the OW. She blew up her family 3 years ago and once her girls found out she was involved with my husband they cut off all ties with her too!. they both are FW’s. I will be amazed if it lasts with them.
I hope you get free soon. To me 60 is still young.
I remember my mother in law (she lived next door to us) said to me: “you guys got married young, I think he just wants his freedom) I just stood and looked at her, I knew that if she realized how that hurt me, she wouldn’t have said it.
But, like you said he was leaving me to shack up with town bicycle, of the two of us, I was the only one getting my freedom. Which if I had my wits about me in real time I would have said that.
Note: MIL was hurting bad, I know she was just trying to somehow make him look better. She didn’t. I doubt she did to anyone.
I hate him for you Kate. I hate him so much for his lies and disrespect.
Stay strong, you are better without that man in your life. There are good things coming for you now that negativity is gone.
Good luck to the new girlfriend trying to tether him when he’s so desperate to be “single”.
“I’m 60, but I can start a new life, while he’s trying to reimagine the same life without the effort.” Beautifully said.