What to Do If You Suspect Cheating
Before you discover your partner’s been cheating, there’s often a few tell-tale signs. Being wedded to their cellphone. Odd smells. Long work hours.
So, what happened when you followed the evidence? Did you confront and get gaslighted? Did you snoop some more? Did you have apoplexies of guilt that you snooped? Were you snoop-shamed?
(That seems to be a thing. HOW DARE YOU LOOK AT MY PHONE gets more weight than How Dare You Give Me Chlamydia.)
Suspicion is the topic of the today’s Tell Me How You’re Mighty podcast. I tell the story of the time I woke up with another woman’s thong stuck to me. (Explain that!) And Sarah relates her ex’s shady 80-hour work week (and her near miss moving to Devon).
It’s funny how what looks preposterous now was very confusing then, because I don’t think a normal person can really imagine the enormity of deception involved in a double life. Also, we’re pretty vulnerable to gaslighting — especially when we don’t want to believe the worst is true.
So, what to do if you suspect cheating?
You get a pass even without evidence
Even without an ugly discovery — ask yourself Is This Relationship Acceptable to Me? Do you want to be with Ms. Checked Out or Mr. 80 Hour Work Week? Isn’t the devaluing enough? Do you need more evidence that this is unsustainable?
Yes, yes we do generally speaking.
Verify before you trust
Which brings us to snooping. My feeling is, it’s okay to check out people’s stories. People with nothing to hide, hide nothing. If you get a lot of defensiveness and push back — this isn’t going to end well.
Act, don’t wait
Some of the absolute WORST advice I was given when I went through it, was not to do anything. Wait it out. This, of course, is a tenet of the RIC. Stand for your marriage and the Great Pumpkin will be along shortly.
So, have a listen and tell me — what did you do — or wish you had NOT done — when you suspected cheating?
This week Sarah and I are interviewing UK therapist Andrew G. Marshall who has a few, um, controversial views on infidelity. (Like chumps should apologize to cheaters for their inadequacies.) Got a question you’d like to ask him on the show, or a comment? Leave us a voicemail here.
Being perplexed and paralyzed by fear in the context of his escalating cruelty was becoming a lifestyle, BUT there were these constant little comments about this new work colleague, Susan. I had never before seriously snooped, but it was time.
He went to a “work dinner meeting” which was odd since he was between jobs. I was definitely not invited, so I used the time with him away to crack into his computer to see if there was anything telling. He had once ( when he had nothing to hide) told me his password – could I remember it?A few tried and there I was looking at his files where I found one saved as “Susan and Christ”…he had written a birthday letter to her telling her about Jesus. Doom.
In a split second I had every bad reaction imaginable (except that I never for a second thought of hurting him) and was SO upset, I knew the possibility of hiding what I had learned was impossible. I called him and told him that I “knew” and to get home right now. I later learned the business dinner was with Susan (who flew in for a conference).
He wanted me to throw him out thus turning the narrative to “my wife threw me out and my friend helped heal my hitting heart”. I went all pick me dancing and RIC “I will save my marriage”. I wish instead I would have held him accountable and indeed thrown him out.
I admire those who learn things and can sit on the info and consider options, I was a bag of insanity at the moment of discovery and it showed.
“Being perplexed and paralyzed by fear in the context of his escalating cruelty was becoming a lifestyle”: I raise my hand!
I feel sick just to remember the amount of time I spent honestly trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. A veritable Jesuit examination of conscience!
Im glad that my ramblings are helpful to others. This place is my journal where I process my experience.
They are so helpful! I am the daughter of a relatively famous English society beauty and, whilst I do, kind of, look like my mother, it‘s a diluted version. So, all through childhood I got my mother‘s disappointment (also was tomboy and hated frilly dresses…still do!) and the FW picked up on that. I met him when I was 19 and weighed 47 kg (gymnast). He told me I was fat and ugly and continued to do so for all of our marriage. And then, 18 years ago, he met SchmooperFreak, the ‘love of his life’ who is 9 years older and 80kg heavier than I am. And oh, the gratuitous cruelty. Not only was I hideous to look at, I couldn’t even breathe correctly). After DDay, his great, great love lasted 11 days and then he was back, literally on his knees. Anyway, I bumped into him recently and he told me how astonishingly good looking I am for my age (we are both 60 now) and why didn‘t I have that confidence before? My reply was that being told how fat and ugly you are for 30 years kinda makes a nest in your brain, but now I have flown that nest and found my wings.
HA. Excellent snark for the end. I really liked your name Schmooper Freak.
UGh. The thick-skull of that one. I am glad you are free <3
Yep GG, who had never once mentioned his community college tutoring students, started mentioning this one student. I didn’t think anything of it at the time because he was always complaining about what a spoiled brat she was. Then he started “working late” and not coming home, so I went through his phone and discovered just how much of a spoiled brat she was…in bed.
Then he started going everywhere with one of his male tutoring students. To movies, just the 2 of them. He showed me pictures of them sitting in the theater for some reason. I can’t put my finger on it, but they looked like a couple. They have to name-drop and give you hints because on some subconscious level they want the kibbles of being caught and watching you cry over them.
Complaining about the AP I think is the biggest red flag. Whenever my cheater ex complained about someone, towards the end I knew that was the clue they were fucking.
It’s like they try to disarm your suspicions by denigrating them. Mine told me his (much younger) college classmate was a “butterface”
Marrissachump, in my case when FW STOPPED talking about his Howorker and I saw text messages from her to him on his non working day, I became very suspicious. OW was a detective before she started working for him, so Lord knows how many secretive ‘ways and means’ she had up her sleeve. One morning I found her undies on pillow next to his face after he’d gone out ‘with his mates’ the night before. I also found his penis pump hidden under the drivers seat of his car – and assuming they ‘got it on’ after he dropped his daughter to school (we were a blended family living together at the time). He suddenly became more cruel towards me too – loads of gaslighting/stonewalling – ALWAYS looking for an argument and then turning each one around to be my fault – he enjoyed seeing me break down and cry trying to defend myself (or my kids). So awful! It was no wonder that I developed severe anxiety!
He also referred to his ex-wife as crazy and I wonder if he wore her down as well?
What did I do to confirm his cheating? I found schmoopie’s Instagram profile and sent her a friend request to see how she would respond. She didn’t just remove my friend request but blocked me. Given I’d never met this woman, going to the extreme of blocking me was a good enough sign for me to know they were cheating. I also sent a friend request to her best friend as well and (surprise) I got the same response. If nothing else doing this served as clarification to save my sanity.
I was starting to wonder recently if they have a purpose for bringing it up and kibbles for control of our emotions is what does it for them! UGH!
I kind of found out who OW was, after DDAY, when she randomly decided to view my INSTA story. Woops. Then I found out her 3 addresses that she lived at. She was wealthy and went to a religious school and out of nowhere this self-proclaimed heathen decided he wanted to start sending our kids to catholic school.
That ended. His new penpal is Muslim and much younger and impressionable so naturally he’s trying to save his soul from all the serial cheating.
My tip offs were changing is VALUE and BELIEF. OR what I thought he believed and valued.
You did the best you could at that moment. You followed your gut. Take credit for finally seeing him with the eyes of truth. You are mighty!!
Something in your post really resonated with me: “He wanted me to throw him out thus turning the narrative to “my wife threw me out and my friend helped heal my hitting heart.”
I think my FW was treating me badly: zero physical interaction, neglect, emotional/psychological abuse, just plain being a dick on purpose in the HOPES that I WOULD cheat on him. But I didn’t. Haha. I took all my pain and put it into my doctoral studies.
I think in FW’s brain I was just a puppet and he thought he could make me act badly because he treated me badly. But I didn’t. That is just not who I am. But it turns out that is EXACTLY who He is! He used my “bad treatment” in his mind as an excuse to be a lying POS. He also has a thing for this woman who’s been dead for 30 years, so I do think at some point he decided to live in his head and not in the real world with the rest of us.
Yep, caught my ex lying to me, again, about his whereabouts and asked him to stay somewhere else for a night. I even asked when he wanted to come back home after the one night apart to cool off. Nope, forever after, it was never “he left” it was “I threw him out.” He could have come back any time after that one night. Now, I’m glad he didn’t (although we did try marriage counseling during that separation which did me more harm than good).
The real world is scary and real people have demands on him, whereas a dead woman asks nothing and does nothing to disrupt the perfect image he has of her. You were well off leaving him in his fantasyland.
You so right. Dead woman is forever the hot chick who went to rock concerts with him. He had all his hair back then too. LOL.
“Being perplexed and paralyzed by fear in the context of his escalating cruelty was becoming a lifestyle”
Wow, that is so well put.
FW also name dropped his new coworker a lot, said we had a lot in common and I’d like her, and then started inviting her to things. Especially “play dates” for the kids. Funnily, she came to my house, but I was never, ever invited to her place. When I’d ask FW if I could go (because my son said he wanted me to), I was given some excuse as to why I couldn’t go (“it’s too small”, “she didn’t say anything and I can’t presume”, “we won’t be long”, “it’s boring and noisy”, or whatever). I later found out that OW had what amounted to a shrine of their relationship in her apartment. No wonder I wasn’t welcome. (Bizarre how I found out. One day OW apparently came home to find that her shrine, and only her shrine, had been destroyed. She accused ME. I had never been to her place. Apparently she was so scared of me after that that she had the locks changed. I didn’t have and never had a key. The only person who DID have a key was FW. To this day I think HE went over there and messed up her mementos in order to scare her so she wouldn’t trust me. Or maybe she did something he didn’t like and he was punishing her. The whole thing was very WTF. Why didn’t she call the cops? If I had a suspected break in, I would have called the cops. But there was no police record and no officer ever contacted me. FW may have talked her out of calling the police because they might have discovered the truth.)
Whoa. Just when I think I’ve accepted what is wrong with these people, here I am again thinking, “WHAT is WRONG with these people?!”
When I went No Contact, my counselor gave me a list of common batshit crazy behaviors he might try. I remember saying, “Oh, he won’t do any of this. He’s not that crazy, and he’s lazy.”
He tried every one of them during the full YEAR he stalked me before I got a protection order. 🤦🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️
My money’s on your ex doing it.
My father was mentally ill and paranoid, and my mother divorced him. He got married again (twice), and to convince his wife that his paranoid fantasies were real, he went into her closet and slashed the dresses he’d bought her. He claimed it was “the kooks,” and that’s the reason only the dresses he’d bought her were slashed–that it was a warning to her.
He’d done something similar to my mother. He took a photo of my sister (I was no longer at home) and slashed it with a knife and left it pinned to the wall. My mother took it as a threat to my sister, not by “the kooks,” but my father–and finally left him.
Yes, mine too. FW even put the story in the divorce discovery as part of his narrative (to show I was crazy), which seems very bold. Had we ever got to trial, I think my attorney would have ripped his story apart on the stand, but FW died before our first hearing.
I was suspicious and knew that if I gave him enough rope he would hang himself and he inevitably did. So when he was out bbq’ing and the text came in “I really enjoyed our time together” he was outside and oblivious tending to his meat. I however, had just read the most scrumptious article in Cosmo regarding “If the OW text comes through and he is not around” so I handled it like a pro. I responded with the innocent of “who is this” she then identified herself, and I followed up with “who”, she then spilled the entire story, who what where and when. I then skillfully took pictures of conversation with my phone, so he couldn’t just delete said message and deny deny deny. He came in proudly holding his meat, as it were, and bingo, I relayed the message. I was just having the most delightful conversation with “X” at which point he almost dropped his dinner on the floor. I packed and moved out. Went No Contact. There is nothing a cheater or narcissist hates more than not even being able to lie their way out of a situation at all. Not a shred of wiggle room. As Johnny Cash would say “you can run on for a long time, but sooner or later God’s going to cut you down.
Hi Charmee,
Great song
“What’s done in the dark will be brought to the light”
I am grateful that everyone here brings the Truth to light—we all benefit from each other. Years of lies are soul sucking
Perfect!!
Or should I say: Well done!
Good for you. I wish I’d handled things as well as you did, and been decisive. But OW lied as much as FW. I never did get the whole story from either of them.
That is inspirational Charmee (although obviously I hope I never want to be in that situation where I need to follow your brilliant example). I used to fantasize a lot about hiring private detectives, but did not go through with it.
There has never been a more perfectly apt scenario than a FW confronted while “holding his meat.”
I started snickering even earlier in the post, at the phrase “tending to his meat.”
I never suspected cheating until the moment my now-ex was outed by my 12 year-old son. It never occurred to me to check her phone, review her credit card charges, research whether she was flying to the city she said she was flying to, etc. I trusted, utterly.
After D-day 1, I suspected a second ongoing affair and asked an online RIC site (SI) whether I should take her laptop and have it imaged so I could know the truth. I was told I shouldn’t, because it would kill her trust in me and along with it any hope of reconciliation. I went along and continued in ignorance. In retrospect, it arguably saved my life when a few days later the second affair came to light and I filed for divorce.
I would tell anyone in this situation that knowing the truth is always the top priority. Without that, you can’t begin to make informed decisions or protect yourself from abuse. And anyone who begrudges you knowing the truth—that is, the true story OF YOUR OWN LIFE—is not your friend, much less your loving partner.
SI, you must reconcile no matter what😂🤣. Cuckolds like company. Divorcing a cheater threatens their martyrdom.
I agree completely. The best thing I ever did was discover the truth.
I never suspected cheating either until I found a love note. Is it a guy thing?
Possibly IMO. The standard social narrative is men are dogs and women are the victims of infidelity. So it feels tenuous to suspect women of this behavior. Like accusing a woman of sexual harassment. It happens, but it runs contrary to the standard narrative and so will be subject to a higher burden of proof.
It boggles the mind. How they bring their children into these things. I am so sorry!
How did it save your life?
The hyper-vigilance post D-day caused me to not sleep for three days straight, and I have heart disease that could’ve led to arrhythmia/stroke or a heart attack. My heart constantly fluttered in my chest like a bird trapped inside a paper bag. Thank God I was prescribed some Ambien and finally got a few hours’ sleep. And then shortly after discovered the second ongoing affair and filed. As soon as I was out from under the same roof, my heart started returning to a healthy rhythm (symbolism much?).
Thank God you made it through. I had the same symptoms and cessation of symptoms once he moved out. I’m sure I wouldn’t have survived continuing to live under the same roof with FW.
I had attacks of tachycardia during the affair/discard. My heart was absolutely fine according to all the tests I had done. They have completely disappeared now that I am no longer with him… I also had some holes (cavitations) in my lungs after a bout with micobacterium avium intracelluare (basically tuberculosis, but not contagious) that stayed open for years. After FW died, the last hole in my lung closed up completely. The body really does feel the affects of abuse.
Same thing here… was seeing my doctor for heart palpitations (I now refer to as my spidey sense). I had to wear a heart monitor while I slept next to a monster. The cure – divorcing him and sleeping diagonal (ha).
Yes. I understand. For sure your body is reacting to the situation. I am glad you are safe and healthy now.
I remember telling FW: “If I stay in this marriage, I will die.” I felt poisoned. I can’t imagine how he was able to live his double life for so long.
Yes. This is why I had my ex move out of the house even before I knew I wanted a divorce. I knew I could not be a good parent or be a physically healthy person and live in the same house with ex.
“I would tell anyone in this situation that knowing the truth is always the top priority. Without that, you can’t begin to make informed decisions or protect yourself from abuse. And anyone who begrudges you knowing the truth—that is, the true story OF YOUR OWN LIFE—is not your friend, much less your loving partner.”
AMEN. The thing that made me the angriest was being lied to, by both FW and OW. I wasn’t given the information with with to make a decision about MY life and MY future. Because if either one of them had come clean in the beginning, I would have done things very differently. I get why FW lied to me, but to this day I have no idea why OW did. She could have had him and welcome if she’d just told me the truth. But she lied to my face and pretended to be my friend, while complaining bitterly in her letters to him discovered later) that the divorce was taking too long and she just wanted to marry him. (I don’t think she ever knew that FW was the one dragging it out, not me.)
Yes, they drag and blame us. I’m sure all the lies he told AP Howorker was the reason she took it in her own hands, followed us to airport to reveal the truth, on my 60th birthday 🥳 as we were entering airport.
Oh, I’m so sorry about how you found out.
I so admire chumps who can stay calm, say nothing, and gather intel. I wish wish wish I had been able to do that.
Good news….I have learned!
Gone are the days of discovering evidence and running immediately to him and confronting him and going off half-cocked and waving it in his face.
I now am a very good Ultimate Battleship player.
Keeping secrets is a page out of the cheater playbook worth stealing. Get as good or better at it. Don’t tell them where your battleships are. When you’re tempted to tip your hand, think of their military airplane hanger of secrets and lies. They use what you tell them against you. Don’t tell them anything unless it is absolutely necessary for YOUR benefit and protection and that of involved children.
I should clarify that I have to have a Minimal Contact relationship with Traitor Ex because we have a child and are (unfortunately for now) equal owners of the business we built. Five years on, and the need to protect myself and our daughter is still an issue, which has made it necessary for me develop excellent restraint of pen and tongue.
You know you’ve been chumped when “I now know” or “I now realize” are frequent phrases used when talking about your former married life…..
“Suspicion is a member of the family” said a dear friend who stayed in her marriage to her cheating husband (who passed away recently.).
It is not how I want to live and hearing that from her helped me stay seated on the front steps of my house when Traitor Ex stood up, walked over to his truck with the clothes on his back, got in and drove away.
I told him to GTFO. He did the next day.
My FW had our teen son drive him to his mom’s house. FW never came back. And never talked to kids about what was going on. What is that? Guilt? Shame? Anger? Poor me?
I wish I had started investigating much sooner. It was only mostly in retrospect once I did know, that I saw the tell tale signs went back to before we were married. That was the thing that makes me sick to this day, that it was all there under my nose and I missed it. There were things that made me uncomfortable but I didn’t know why. It wasn’t until he suddenly started bringing up his coworker all the time, her troubled abusive marriage, how bad he felt for her, that she was asking him for help – did I finally admit to myself his over interest in this woman wasn’t okay and from there all hell broke loose. She was just one in a string of many but I guess by that time he was so comfortable with his double life that he got sloppy.
So I would give the advice now, if things don’t feel right, dig deeper, normal healthy relationships don’t make you uncomfortable or insecure.
Exactly, if something doesn’t feel right, it’s probably for a reason. I think women have a really good “6th sense” about these things, but we just shut it down, narcissist are especially good at making you question yourself and as each year goes by, this gut feeling becomes more quiet until you don’t hear it at all. It’s actually pretty scary.
So True, Confused. My memory is terrible, probably due to stress. But if I could remember better, I bet there were so many red flags I missed. He had been with AP for 3 years before I found out. There were probably so many things I missed in those 3 years.
Biggest mistake (of so many) – my FW asked me when I’d looked at her messages to AP. I told her. “They go low, we go high,” something something bullshit. So then she knew which new messages I hadn’t yet seen, and erased them. It let her permanently cling to the claim she’d only gone so far with AP. I wish to hell I’d withheld that.
The reason I finally gave up and divorced was that everything I found out was then denied with appalling, dramatic lying and infinite anger. More than once, I had the evidence, then asked and watch her spin lies like a spider on crack.
The more solid evidence you have before you confront them, the better for your sanity and for your ability to walk right out that door when you should. Because yeah, it’s so easy to be vulnerable to what you want to believe instead of what you know to be really true.
Towards the end, I started only asking FW questions to which I already knew the answers, just to hear what he would say. His lies were SO unnecessarily complicated. I suppose he thought a lot of detail would make them more credible, but it just made them easier to disprove. I’d nod and smile like I bought his BS, but I knew better. It was very enlightening.
The anger is one of the biggest clues that you have hit on the truth. So for newbies out there: if your FW gets angry when you ask questions, you are probably spot on.
I discovered his business trip was a lie. He wasn’t returning calls, said his battery was dying. I called the man he was allegedly with, that guy was with his wife on way home from daughter’s basketball game. I texted FW, I know your BS don’t bother to lie, you’re not with John, I spoke to him.
I get FW text, “I borrowed John’s phone, had to buy new charger for my phone, that dumbass did not have a text plan on his phone…” I text back READ my previous text..then FW changed it to I’m by myself, I was mourning my friend’s death, (mutual friend mind you). Lying liars lie.
Eventually I told him just because I don’t challenge you, does not mean I believe a word you say.
FW was furious with me questioning him. He took a work day off to attend wedding of a (one of many) floozy gal pals from work. Didn’t even ask me if I want to attend. Why? Who am I to be seen in public with the greatness of him? Because he didn’t want to upset the narrative of him as “great single dad.”
Turns out they had been texting and calling each other constantly. She was on all his social media. After I confronted him with screenshots of their posts she blocked me. I also discovered he had blocked me on FB for years. I said why? He said. “I guess I was angry.”
It all seemed pretty fishy to me. She’s married now with twins. He doesn’t live here anymore. They can both go fuck themselves.
Those last three sentences of yours need to be reworked for the Valentine’s Haiku challenge!
Hahahahhahaaaa! Yes.
“Spin lies like a spider on crack”–I will have to remember that phrase. I too watched FW spin lies right in front of me. His story would literally change while he was talking. He would completely contradict things he said only a couple of sentences before. It was astonishing.
I wish I had been sneakier. I’m not devious by nature, and I tended to be very open about what I found out. But FW is VERY devious by nature, and I was really just giving him a heads-up about how much I knew and how to cover his tracks. There are a lot of other things that I wish had happened differently, but few of them were under my control. So I guess that is the only one I wish I could go back and change. I wish I had kept quiet and looked around more before I said anything.
I started studying tarot cards for fun and entertainment. This is where I first heard, “Making your moves in silence.” I like that phrase. The idea is that the outcomes of my moves will be noticed. But, I can choose to do all of the work along the way, live my life, without sharing my ideas or intentions. I like it. I was way too overshare-y in my pre-D-Day life. I was like one of those digital billboards flashing every single bit of myself in a 24/7 braodcast. Ugh. Family of origin problems, I’m sure.
Tallgrass, this is the Wisdom of the Day for me! Thank YOU!
I was the same. My heart is still on my sleeve, but I wear a jacket over that shirt and am much more discerning who I take it off around.
Me three! I really love the ability to protect oneself after something like this… you just can’t undo that kind of transformation. There are so many songs about phoenix and ashes and burning to be reborn and I definitely think these personality types of FW/AP/ETC really are just antagonists in our heroine/hero arc~ <3
I did not snoop further because I knew it would mean I have to dump him. I knew something was afoot, but I could not blow up my “marriage” just yet. For lots of practical reasons. (It was more like having a passive aggressive boarder–not even a roommate. But I needed to feed my kids.)
Do I wish I had done it 10 or more years ago when I first got the sense that we was being a dick? Yes. Regret sucks. But I didn’t. I don’t own a time machine. I can’t go back and do it differently. I can only live now. I have to believe that I did the best I could for the person I was at the time.
It hurts like a MF. My kids grew up in a miserable home. For that, I feel a huge amount of GUILT.
I did not feel mighty back then. I was at my lowest point. My father had died. I had no income, three small children and my widowed mom that I would need to take care of by myself if I walked. He treated ME like I was the problem. Like: “Life would be better, but I’m with STUPID” (meaning me). He took on this attitude of contempt. He didn’t even try to hide it. Life went on like that for YEARS.
I decided to stick my head in the sand, work, get another degree, and wait until I was strong enough and until I felt just the right amount of rage to do a deeper snoop and if need be, to leave the marriage. By the time I reached that point, I HATED him. I looked at him with disgust. There was no turning back. But even after I kicked him out/told him never to come back (twice) I did ask him to return.
He came back once. By then he looked like a ghoul to me. By then, I FELT contempt. And I could not get past it. And I could not stop confronting him. I could not stop throwing all his lies back into his face. Which, he DID NOT like! He was like: “How dare you look at MY phone? So, now I can’t have friends?” Uh-huh. What a DICK.
He accused me of cheating ON HIM. He brought up names of people we have not seen in 30 years and accused me of having multiple affairs even before we got married. And during the time when my kids were little. (None of that was true). But it made me feel WORSE. I was confronting him with actual evidence of his fun time social media floozy friends TODAY and he was accusing me of cheating in the 90s. Does that make any sense?
I said if you thought I was cheating on you back then, why the hell did you marry me and have 3 kids with me? You dumbass. So he was trying to say I had chumped him longterm. (WTF???)
I am glad that I got off that crazy-making merry go round. I have retained an attorney and I am on my way to cutting legal ties to that ghoul. I am grateful to CL and CN for being a safe place to talk about this experience. There was a time that I believed I was the problem. But now I see that it was abusive for him to treat me and our kids so badly and all the while blame me for the person he is. It’s going to take a long time to undo that programming.
My young adult son (who is currently not doing well with his own life choices) is using that same logic on me now and we are fighting almost daily. He says, “of course dad checked out because of all the decisions YOU made!” He believes FW’s version and has accused me of cheating also. And like FW, refuses to go to therapy and refuses to take any responsibility for his own life. So, I have my hands full.
There is no magic phrase or conversation to change my son’s mind. We just keep fighting and fighting. I just pray that over time, my son will grow as a man and reach a better place than FW ever could. Because of his parents, FW stuffed his feelings. Which is probably why he is the way he is (emotional toddler rage). At least my son is not stuffing his feelings. The feelings are definitely coming out, but they are mostly blame toward ME. Which sucks!
Thanks CN for listening!
My adult son is wasting his one precious lifetime determined to prove that his lying, cheater, abusive dad is really just a great guy that is very misunderstood. It breaks my heart to watch it but I cannot change it. Or even get him to consider listening to another perception.
In counseling recently, we talked about how rare it is for my counselor to work with a man who has woken up and needs her services to rethink his life choices and make changes in himself. My son likely will never ask for help to get better.
That’s really really sad. At one time, throughout all his growing up years, he was a very loving person. But, he can’t be that and also have any chance at his dad loving him or having a relationship with him. And he already threw away all his other relationships in order to prove his support of his dad. What he did not predict was that schmoopie now determines where he fits in to his dad’s life. And she is clear that he doesn’t.
I must be getting closer to meh. This post is in sadness. Not anger.
I’m sorry Tallgrass! I will pray for your son. Sending you hugs.
I know my son is also trying to prop up his sad sack spineless dad. I pray that my son will some day soon realize he is not his dad. He’s even better. (STBX is actually jealous of his own kids. They are beautiful and smart and are open to happiness. Unlike him. He seems to take pleasure in being miserable.)
Oh man, listen to the podcast. That whole “How do I know you’re not cheating on ME” is a THING. We both went through it. Best defense is a good offense.
I had a marriage counselor accuse me! “How does FW know that you’re not cheating on him? You’re bisexual. Does that bother you FW?” she hand fed him this excuse. Handed it to him on a silver platter! I stormed out of the office and took off down the stairs so fast that I shook the building. No joke.
I once stormed out of (as VHammer would say) Mirage Counselling (even demanded the fee back) because of something similar. The therapist was “so pleased that a husband is participating” that she pandered to him the entire session. Which inflated him to level his crimes against me. I left a message for the therapist too telling her that she needed therapy for her internalized misogyny. I never heard back either way.
The unacceptable people we partner with and have kids with are one thing, but sometimes their friends are awful, too. How/why would we chumps even think to have an affair with sleazeballs? Never was it illustrated so powerfully as with the story of Danielle Leukam, author of “Four Pounds of Pressure”. https://www.danielleleukam.com/book-online
Some years back she was stalked and violently attacked and threatened with a gun to her head by a masked man speaking in a gruff voice, while her young child was sleeping in another room. Turns out the attacker was a GROOMSMAN in her wedding years prior (she was divorced at the time). He had the hots for her all the while and finally acted on it. It’s a difficult read, but Danielle is MIGHTY in her journey of seeking justice and a new kind of life while her attacker sits in jail – for now. Her story of rising like a phoenix after horror is inspirational.
The mental gymnastics of FWs is a thing to behold!
FW accused me of sleeping with his friends, with random guys in bars, with a dude who catcalled me in the street. Everyone. And I was just like “…You really don’t know me, do you? Even after all these years.” (I was a virgin when I married him, at age 27. Casual sex has never held any appeal for me. And friends would be off limits regardless because that’s just messed up.)
Every accusation is a confession. FW was the one cheating on me with a “friend”. And who know who else. He claimed he downloaded Tinder “for fun” and not to use, but he also took trips out of town frequently and I wouldn’t be the least surprised if he’d put the app to good use while he was in a different city. He once texted me a photo of the hotel room that he was staying in and said “this place was designed for sex” (lots of mirrors). I was dumb enough to think it was a joke, or that he wished I was there with him.
My father did this to my mother for the entire 30 years they were married, and of course did this in front of me and my brother. My mother was also a virgin when they married (she was 22), and yet he accused her of cheating on him before the marriage and once said my brother wasn’t his. Yet it was my father, of course, who was the one cheating.
My sons fought on the stairs until the oldest was about 23.
Today he is a captain in the British army and his brother is just starting a new job in London. Some young males, who aren’t academic, just fizz with energy and certainty. Martial arts helps.
Can I suggest the answer to any discussion of your divorce is “recollections may vary” and unless your son is at college financial support is limited. Housing , clothing and food only . If he wants the latest trainers then he either gets a job or is paid for cleaning the bathroom.
Thanks Name Changer. I am praying for my sons and my daughter. They are all hurt and of course, I am half of the problem of the crappy marriage. That is my biggest regret. My sons says: Why DID you marry him????
I have hope for the future. I hope that we can have a good relationship and that each one builds a life they can be proud of. Not like FW. He is a passive-aggressive lump who tried to crucify me for his lackluster career, lack of joy, lack of spine. It’s an immature attitude like a cranky teen blaming his parents for not letting him go to a rock concert.
Have you seen this movie? Wet Hot American Summer [2001] | https://youtu.be/d17ftCdRnI8
This scene with Paul Rudd is my husband to a tee. And now my son. Oh joy!
Cranky teenager is just bang on! Mine once did a real Kevin the Teenager in response to something I said and I nearly came back with “It’s SO unfair! I HATE you!” lol! I couldn’t believe my eyes and ears because it was like he was doing an impression but in a BAD mood instead of a happy, mucking about mood, and of course, he’d no idea of how ridiculous he looked and sounded! What a muppet!
I will never be able to watch Harry Enfield and Chums without thinking of that now!
OMG…I have 2 sons and a daughter and they (who grew up with Cheaters rage and tragic death) put me through (among other things): weed parties on my deck, psych admissions, jail, surprise babies, blowing $75,000 on tuition then failing out, car crashes, cancer, parties broken up by cops, ran off to a commune and changed his name to a fruit, facial paralysis…and right now, they are all…….(wait for it…) FINE!
I had such a massive sense of relief when I read your kids are fine now after all that! Blimey!
It just goes to show that having the one SANE parent helps kids a lot more than we realise! Fair play to you Unicorn No More, and to your kids!
I was coaching my daughter through an adulting task (car insurance claim) and I apologized that she only had one parent and she said “no one has 2 good parents, even if they are both alive, one of them sucks”. That was so comforting to me. This may should out of place, but all sane parents: buy life insurance on yourself to benefit the kids if/when you drop over.
You made me laugh so hard!!! Thanks Unicornomore. I’m glad your kids are fine now. I have hope in my heart. My youngest seems to like me OK. One out of three isn’t too bad!
I have always vaguely liked Paul Rudd and now I love him. The film is now on my watch list. Best advice I can give is accept the family dream has gone and there is not going to be one of those all singing and dancing divorces until Mr Special learns empathy and unselfish behaviour.
Life is so much easier when you announce you will be polite for one off occasions but basically you are done.
I have a teenage son too and often think of this clip 😅
I try to remind myself that this is pretty normal behavior for a TEENAGE boy who is bristling at “mommy” still being in charge and getting ready to leave the nest. My son is trying to individuate himself from me, so everything I do is lame and annoying. He is also having sexual feelings for the first time, and all the confusion and embarrassment that goes along with that. It’s a tough time.
But it is NOT normal behavior from a spouse. I didn’t even realize that my husband treated me like a “mean mommy” until I had a teenager in the home.
I resist the urge to think or say “he is just like his father,” because it’s not true. My son is already growing out of this phase. His father is “just like” a child, and is likely never going to grow out of it.
Thanks I need to get a handle on my perspective. My son is 20. Unfortunately, he does act like STBX sometimes. And I do call him out. Sometimes gently. Sometimes I’m exasperated and defending myself from abuse. And I’m in therapy. I have to put some boundaries up. I can’t be the source of all STBX’ choices AND son’s choices. I remind myself that my son will not be like STBX because I’m his mom. My MIL is the emotional polar opposite of me. I think this is a good sign for son that he won’t stay in his “rebel without a clue” phase forever.
I understand the exasperation. Sometimes when my son behaved like his Dad I had to bite my tongue hard. My husband used to sleep all the time, and when my son started doing the same I felt like I was living in a time loop. I did not want to repeat dragging someone kicking and screaming through life.
My son is almost 20 as well and currently working. Finding the right job did wonders for him.
Letting go of what anyone else’s kid is doing and accepting that my son is doing his best did wonders for ME. He has a good heart, he will find his way in time
Thanks NotAnymore, I am glad your son is doing well. I have hope and I will continue to stay hopeful for my son and his future.
I never suspected anything. My D-day was when the husband of the latest OW came to tell me everything. Otherwise, I probably wouldn’t know anything for years to come. Now, looking back at some signs, I can’t understand why I trusted him blindly. I never checked his phone in 6 years. He was as sick and twisted that he suggested a few times that we have a threesome with this OW (she was a mutual friend), but of course it was all packed up in a joke and how a threesome has always been his fantasy, bla bla. One evening, before a “work trip” he was in the shower shaving his private parts and I joked: why are you shaving, are there any hot coworkers coming along? And we joked about it, like haha, yeah sure.. Now my stomach turns when I remember those moments, because I later found out it wasn’t a work trip, but he went on a trip with this OW, where they also found another couple via tinder and switched. How sick are these people.. I did “spy” on his instagram following in the early days and remember having a gut feeling that it wasn’t all “clean”, because there were always some new girls he followed, but always had a good explanation or excuse, who that was.. Of course I was also accused of being paranoid and snooping for no reason. And then I shut those feelings down, god knows why. I should have known from the beginning and do my research, before having a family with this man.
Shaving his private parts: I don’t know how long it had been going on before I noticed he had no pubic hair at all. I immediately understood that this was to enable better oral sex, and he sure wasn’t doing it for me. He was over sixty years old, the old fool!
FW did same, I felt the new growth spooning. I knew then and said you’re cheating. He said you know this is for my skin inspection with the dermatologist. 🙄
They also think that it makes them look bigger! 🤪
Uuuugh! Dirty old devil!
Clean my mind with bleach!
Egads! I’m sorry you had to witness that. You are in a better place now.
Oh, and another HUGE red flag I dismissed back in the early days of our relationship. When I posted our first photo together on instagram and after a month or so received a comment from his ex: “watch out, he’s such a player”. I showed him and his reaction was everything. He panicked and had diarrhea the whole next day. But then sold me the story, how she’s crazy, how she drinks a lot and probably just got really drunk and stalked me, how she’s just jealous and never got over him when he left (she was his gf when he lived in the US for 3 years, but then he was already back in Europe when he was with me). He even went so far that he called a few of his US buddies to confirm the story that she really was crazy, blah blah. That really shook me and I didn’t know what to believe. But of course I believed him and blocked her. I should have contacted her. Years later I also found out he hooked up with her a few weeks before she posted that comment, when he was on a work trip in the US. But I never in a million years suspected that. The work trip was in another state than where she lived. And she lived thousands of miles away from us, so I just didn’t see her as a “threat”. It’s really crazy how you convince yourself to believe what you want to believe, especially when you’re in love.
I am so sorry!!!! When I met FW there was no internet. But fast-forward 30 years later, he was on all the social media platforms and has tons of “friends.” Ugh. Sicko. He didn’t have time for his kids in real life but had tons of time to post their photos on his social media to show what a great dad he is.
I enjoy the podcast format — Tracy, you and your cohost have great, soothing voices, and I appreciate your sharing your stories in more detail. It’s so nice to know there are people out there who have been through this. I have a neighbor who has been married for 30 years and about 10 years ago she suddenly got an STD. She is going to keep her head in the sand. — she decided that the HPV must have been dormant in her husband from when he slept around before meeting her. She absolutely refuses to see the truth, and she brags all the time about how happy they are together and all the fun things they do together, what a great grandfather he is now, etc. etc. It’s just crazy to see this denial in action.
Although possible, from what I read; probably not.
The real issue is, while she is keeping quiet he is spreading his filth further and further to other unsuspecting husbands and/or wives.
I enjoyed the podcast too. Looking forward to the next one!
Signs very early on. So what this has taught me is that people are capable of horrible deception for years to everyone and that I will not totally trust anyone again. I also don’t trust myself anymore to choose safely. So I don’t.
I don’t trust myself, either. I’ve seen enough to know what my tendencies are, and to know they’re self-destructive, so now when I feel myself attracted to someone, my first thought is “This is exactly the person I shouldn’t get involved with!” I don’t know if I’ll ever feel I’ve “fixed my picker” and “done the work on myself” to want to date again.
I am still living in the dumpster fire that is my current life. Mom just passed away. Young adult kids feeling angry and sad. Blah career. Most of FW’s stuff is still here in the house. Feeling physically frozen. Still have to cook, clean, shop, pay bills. Daily fights with oldest son.
The thought of going on a date sounds as plausible as growing an extra limb. On Mars. But now that you mention it, I fear that I too have a flawed picker. Maybe better to stay out of the dating pool for a while or forever? My FW is Mr. Nice Guy on the outside. A humble, self-effacing, gentleman. But inside he’s a twisted monster with a high tolerance for cruelty. Never saw it coming.
So sorry about your circumstances. My mother died last September. I went from divorce to hurry-up retirement (I worked with him; my university offered a too-good-to-turn down buyout offer) straight to caring for my mother, who lived a thousand miles away. Three years of back and forth commuting. Now I’m the executor, and trying to close the estate, while looking for a place to move, before I’m ready, because the university-owned house I rent is being sold. My son is grown, and after some difficult years I know how that turmoil adds to your already high level of stress. I hope you have been able to give FW a date to get all his stuff out of the house so those reminders will be gone.
I have so many other fires going right now. I sent some boxes to FW soon after he left. But our house is still full of stuff. Decluttering is on my to do list. I’ll get there someday!
At first it was just a weird vibe I got from the two of them (we were all coworkers, and we used to get together so our kids could play). They just seemed too close. Little inside jokes. Play “fighting” (shoulder punches, etc.). Husband denied anything. I wanted to believe him. Eventually he said she had a crush on him (she was MARRRIED, eew), but he didn’t reciprocate. He was abusive and had been for years, but I’d stuck it out because, you know, that’s what you do in marriages – you work on them. He kicked me out, saying he “needed to be alone”.
A few weeks later he told he’d developed “feelings” for her but had decided against pursuing it “for so many reasons”. He cried and said nothing had happened and he was sorry. I wanted to believe him. Not long after, he left his Facebook page open on the laptop and I saw messages between them (like “Good night, [FW]. I’m going to go Dream some Dreams”). I freaked out. I had to attend an event with the both of them that same night. At the event, someone said something about my son having a crush on her daughter, and OW said “that might be awkward” and I wondered why she’d say that (duh! I was, I admit, rather dense.) FW also started “working late” a lot, and I later put together the (obvious) pieces and realized that was when they were carrying on together. I was stupid and trusting and never thought to compare the paychecks with the overtime he claimed to have worked.
OW started showing up to just about everything we did (even separated we did family stuff with our kid for awhile). Then FW asked me to come back home, and like an idiot I did. But he kept spending his weekends with her, leaving me home to take care of the house and the child. During this time, he changed the code on his phone so I couldn’t access it, and started taking it with him into the bathroom and other places. He was never without it. I also found emails between them that he had saved in a secret folder titled “work”. In one of them he told her she deserved a “knight in shining armor” to rescue her. Needless to say, I wasn’t happy. On Christmas Eve, he went out with HER and left me at home. On New Year’s Eve she texted him CONSTANTLY, to the point where I said something about it. We separated again three months later.
Later, I discovered phone records, with HOURS and HOURS of calls every week between them, including during our wreckonciliation. That confirmed for me that they were more than just friends. But I was still in denial, so I kept trying to save our “marriage”. FW got more and more abusive, even violent, during this time. One night he nearly killed me. Even that wasn’t enough.
TWO YEARS later, I confronted OW and she lied to my face, while I cried and said I just wanted to know what was going on. She said “nothing is going on”. Eventually even I couldn’t deny there was SOMETHING going on. One day I went to check on FW because he wasn’t communicating with our son for days, and she was there, in a state of partial undress.
I eventually had had enough of his fence sitting (“I love you and miss you” one moment, and “I hate you and don’t ever want to talk to you again” the next) and started preparing to file for divorce. My lawyer thought he was purposely delaying so he didn’t have to marry OW (yet). Maybe he wasn’t sure of her at that point. FW got wind of it from my attorney and jumped to file first (fine by me). I suppose he couldn’t let me control the narrative and leave HIM. I was the horrible wife he had to leave so he could be happy. I counter filed (I am in a fault state, and wanted cruelty and adultery on the record). FW finally admitted to the affair to his attorney, who told mine, though he still refused to turn over his correspondence with OW (mainly because he was claiming they didn’t have sex until after we separated the SECOND time, and I’m positive that the letters/texts/emails would have contradicted that story; FW was dumb enough to think that it didn’t count as adultery if we were separated, but that’s NOT how it works in my state, and he was lying about the timeline anyway). It had been almost 4 years since my first suspicions.
A few months later he and OW moved in together. I later found evidence that she had been all but living in my house during covid, when FW was calling me crying about how alone he was (like FW, OW’s spouse had the kids the whole time, so they were both childless for three months, and they took full advantage). We decided to sell the marital home (FW had moved out and refused to pay a dime towards it even though he’d been living there exclusively and had agreed to split the mortgage with me til it was sold) and while I was cleaning it out (FW also refused to help with that part) I found a letter from OW that talked about when the affair first started. It was exactly when FW told me to leave because he “needed to be alone”. I have a suspicion that OW was in MY bed as soon as I left (I took that bed straight to the dump when FW demanded I come get my things out of “his” house a few month before – the bed was mine from before we got married, so it left with me, and he couldn’t argue it, haha).
Their happily ever after didn’t last. She left him about four weeks after they moved in together. I guess she discovered just how abusive he could be once she was “locked in” to a lease. He took his own life a few months later. Going through his things, I discovered hundreds of letters from the early years of their affair, including during our wreckonciliation. I also found a boudoir photoshoot FW had taken of her. I had seen one of the photos, which FW claimed was an author photo for OW that she had taken and sent to him for his opinion. I had asked at the time why she had such a “come hither” expression and he acted all confused and flabbergasted. But I found the rest of the series which showed her in progressively less clothing and finally her bare ass. This all dated from the time when he claimed she was “just a friend”. So I know the affair was sexual from the beginning. (Which means he was sleeping with both of us concurrently – GROSS. Had I known, I wouldn’t have let him touch me with a ten foot pole.)
The thing is, I had had people telling me he was probably having an affair from the beginning, based solely on the fact that he was being mean to me, picking fights over nothing, and being overly critical. And I DEFENDED him, saying he wouldn’t do that. I was raised very religious and conservative and had very little experience. Infidelity and divorce weren’t things that happened to people I knew. I am wiser now. FW had gaslit me for so long, I no longer trusted my intuition. He had an answer/explanation for everything, and called me crazy, jealous, insecure, said I didn’t want him to have friends. All that nonsense. I even gaslit myself, because I didn’t want it to be true. But the thing is, every gut feeling I had, every suspicion, turned out to be 100% correct. EVERYTHING. Every time I was like “he’s probably with her”, he was. So trust your instincts. If something feels “off”, it probably is.
Yeah, taking the phone into the bathroom … big red flag, there.
Taking his phone into the bathroom – big red flag. This is the one that still smacks me. Why did I not see how horrible things were?
In hindsight, I think chumps never even enter into a google search bar…. “my husband hides his phone” or “my husband takes his phone with him to the bathroom.”
We are so trusting, keeping our nose to the grindstone trying to save our marriages, so chumpy that we never even think to enter these as symptoms into our brains and begin to look at comparisons or other’s experiences. Today, I would know these tricks and see them immediately as red flags. But all those years, I did not even see them as a pattern that could be researched.
It reminds me of an instance I had on ebay/paypal once several years ago. I am a heavy internet user and regularly use ebay and paypal since their inception. Yet, I got involved in an electronics scam. The only thing that saved me was paypal flagged it and wouldn’t let the transaction complete. I was furious at paypal…….for about 24 hours. Then it sank in that something was wrong. I typed into google search bar “selling a computer on ebay” and the first page was full of warning stories of how these scams work. It was a very common scam and heavily reported on.
I had never had any reason to know – I was totally unaware this was a thing.
That’s how it happened with fuckwit. I was totally unaware this was a thing so I never thought to form questions or look for answers in that way even though the information is readily available. I wasn’t looking for a new car, so I had no reason to know anything about the car market.
Chumpnation of course has documented the tiniest details of this scam because it plays out the same way over and over and over.
Seems so strange to be so innocent and unaware. But, I truly was.
That is horrible. I hate that you or anyone has to endure that.
I wonder how the OW actually feels about all this now. Likely she is damaged too, but I just wonder if they have any shame of being a part of it. She has to know now how unstable this man was.
No shame. No accountability. No remorse for the people she hurt. According to her social media, which I sometimes check for entertainment, she is spinning the “poor me” victim routine, and regularly writes about she “ended up” in an abusive relationship and how powerful she is to have survived it. Leaving off entirely that she walked into it with open eyes (actually, SHE pursued HIM), called me a liar when I spoke about my own abuse, and enjoyed joining forces with FW to abuse me too. She lied about me to all our friends (must’ve done, because they all welcomed her and excluded me, in spite of knowing her for 2 or 3 months, and me for over 10 YEARS), tried to get me fired, threatened me with a restraining order (for doing absolutely nothing), falsely accused me of breaking and entering, and on several occasions she screamed at me and pushed me. One time she hit me with her backpack because I guess I was walking too close to FW. It’s not like she didn’t know I existed. She’d been to my house multiple times. I had her over for Christmas because I felt sorry for her (first Christmas without her kids). I mean…But she never, never, never mentions that her abusive “boyfriend” had a wife, or what she did to me (though she once wrote a tweet about her “arch nemesis” and I think that was me, lol).
She’s an outspoken feminist, yet she took pleasure in hurting another woman (me) to please a man. She says “I support Amber Heard” but she called me a liar who was trying to “smear my husband’s good name” when I spoke up about my abuse, she posts memes about kindness when she’s a mean bitch. She’s now latched on to a group of queer people (she’s made being pansexual her new identity, because she just morphs into whomever she’s around) and talks a lot about trans rights. She’s also now claiming to be autistic (I’m autistic, so there’s nothing wrong with this, but she seems to be using it as an excuse for her mistakes). None of these things is bad, in fact they are admirable causes and I support them all. But she’s doing it for attention and to make herself look like a good person and be accepted. It’s clear she’s deceiving everyone around her yet again. She latches on to whatever is the social justice issue du jour. But she’s a truly selfish person. You can’t trumpet “believe women!” when you don’t believe women until it happens to you personally. She posts about her kids and being a good mom, but she abandoned my son (whom she claimed to love) without a word of explanation or apology, not even when his dad died. My son had known her for half his life. Boom. Gone. And his “siblings”. Needless to say, he was very confused, and has some ongoing abandonment issues.
I did have the pleasure of telling her exactly what I thought of her after FW died in a text message. She was contacting me frequently, like she wanted to be my friend, or that our shared experiences somehow made us comrades or something. I told her she was immature and selfish, that I rejected her “apology” (yes, she did send me an apology, but really only because her fairytale fell apart, and she took NO responsibility for her actions whatsoever, saying “I was operating under false pretenses.” She knew he was married, so what was false?) I’ve since blocked her from contacting me, but I sometimes have to sit on my hands so I don’t respond to her Twitter posts or those of her new “friends” (they are no more her friends than FW’s friends were her friends, they are just useful to her) and out her as the disgusting hypocrite she is. But it won’t make any difference, so I haven’t (yet).
She’s apparently in therapy, but seems, based on her Tweets, to mostly be there to deal with the trauma of being abused, not the character flaws that got here in that situation in the first place.
She meant to hurt me, but she inadvertently freed me to live my best life. So while I’m not grateful to her (she doesn’t deserve it), I am grateful the affair happened, because I would have stayed and been miserable if FW hadn’t left me for her.
I stopped using social media because of FW and his many floozies.
I’m glad you are able to frame this as a positive. You are FW free!
I shut down all my social media for a few years during the divorce because OW and some of FW’s friends were stalking me and trying to turn whatever completely innocuous things I posted against me. I’m back on now because FW is dead and I don’t care a whit about all my fair weather “friends” anymore.
“I was stupid and trusting and never thought to compare the paychecks with the overtime he claimed to have worked.”
I didn’t either and here is the thing. He did the finances, and I did pretty much everything else, including working part time, and eventually full time. I even freaking mowed the law, because he was so damb busy. I was exhausted most of the time and just didn’t even think of checking out the financial discrepancy. I wish I had, because if I had I would have know much sooner.
He insisted we buy investment properties, we bought two of them and he used them to launder his whoring and gambling.
But, I trusted him and he made sure I had no down time.
Ugh, do I understand that last part! FW would come to me totally panicky about how financially tight things were and could I take on some more freelance work. I have a full-time job. I have one regular freelance client I work with but he handled all of our finances and painted a picture of us being in enormous debt. I couldn’t figure out how but he implied that I overspent a lot and that our bills were just really high. I hate that I NEVER CHECKED. I just trusted him 100%.
So I went out and got more work. And then more. I worked every night of the week and all day/night on the weekends almost every week. I barely slept, barely saw our daughter. I had no downtime. My health was suffering. But when I would beg him to take on an extra shift to give me some relief (he’s an RN so he works 3 12-hour shifts a week and is off the other 4 days) he would say that he was too tired and I didn’t understand how exhausting his job is. Especially during COVID. (This is also why he couldn’t do anything around the house. He would just complain about it and say that if I wasn’t going to work on the house alongside him, he wouldn’t do it. So the house became a sty that I had no time to address, too.)
I mean, that’s true. I don’t know what it’s like to be a nurse. But he saw me slowly killing myself and never offered to take on extra shifts.
Post-DDay I discovered he was calling in sick to work to spend time with the mistress, spending 1/3 of our income on her. Most of his time spent with her was during the day when I was at my full-time job so he could maintain the image of the family man: take daughter to school, go spend the day with the child mistress at a hotel a mile or so from our house, drive her further south than I typically go in the county so there was no chance of running into people we knew and taking her to day spas and shopping sprees. Then he would be back at our daughter’s school by 6 to pick her up and come home to be dad of the year, complaining that I never spent time with our daughter.
And still, I never suspected anything. He never mentioned any women, never talked about anybody new. He only ever talked about his coworkers that I knew. I didn’t have a flipping clue that anything was happening. He compartmentalized his two lies so well that I had 0 idea anything was going on. He cheated for 7 F’ING YEARS, 4 with the child mistress and I never even suspected a thing.
I am so sorry. You didn’t deserve any of that. My heart is broken reading this. He was cruel. Do you think he confronted himself finally? Sounds like OW leaving him shattered his fake reality.
You survived a lot. I hope you treat yourself with the love, care, and respect you so rightly deserve.
FW blamed everyone but himself up til the day he died. His suicide letter was one long “poor me”. So no, I don’t think he ever truly took any responsibility for his behavior. There was one line where he said he could have treated me better during the breakup. Hardly an acceptance of blame for his YEARS of abuse.
I agree, his fake reality was shattered. Reputation was EVERYTHING to him. He very carefully cultivated his public image. He and OW were very public and outspoken about their “fairytale” romance, and had somehow convinced all our friends that they were destined for each other. So it must have been embarrassing for him when she just up and ran. OW, unlike me, was also very vocal about why she left him. I had certainly made DV allegations in the divorce. Two women accusing you of DV looks very bad. His finances were disastrous. His friends were nowhere to be found. He didn’t see any reason to go on. His child was not reason enough, it seems. The thing is, the courts seemed to be swinging in my favor with custody. If FW lost custody, or just got everyother weekend or something, it would spoil his “perfect single dad” image, as well as his attempts to paint me as an unfit parent. And I think his deepest fear is that our son would come to hate him, the way he hated his parents. So I guess he preferred to just check out, and leave me to clean up his mess. Fortunately, my son is doing great.
My life is lovely now. I’ve never been happier. I bought a house for us. I have a good job. My sweet son is happy too (no more depression/anxiety). We have lots of conversations about true friends, how we should treat each other, etc. so I hope that he grows up to be a better man than his father.
I am happy for the life you and your son have now!!!
I can’t wrap my head around being so committed to the “poor me” victimhood story that suicide is the only option. Damn. That is so harsh. At the end of the day, you gotta be your own best friend. Even a FW has to find a way to redeem themselves for their own good–for their own survival. At one time I thought it was my job to redeem FW. But not anymore.
I’m so sorry your FW pulled the plug on himself so he could die as the victim, not thinking instead about how to keep living for his son. This breaks my heart completely. In my darkest moments I fear that my FW could try to pull this too. I pray that he doesn’t.
And it tells me to be stronger. I can’t let FW make me feel so bad that I give up being a mother, which is what my kids need. Even a mother to fight with is better than one who decides to call it quits. I may be flawed, but god damnit, I’m still here. And maybe FW doesn’t/never loved me. But that’s ok kids. I love myself.
“Being perplexed and paralyzed by fear in the context of his escalating cruelty” – brilliantly put!
To demonstrate this, my elderly neighbours and even my pre-teen kids all told me they heavily suspected he’s been having an affair for 2 years just based on his constant comings and goings. Seems I was so paralytically exhausted by his gaslighting and psychological abuse that I just couldn’t “move” (emotionally or physically) on my suspicions; which just gave him time and resources to fully establish his second life with schmoopie.
Yes. I think our bodies know before we can face the truth. I’m so sorry. I hope you are feeling stronger and safer now.
I was 100% in the dark when he told me about the affair.
It’s shocking to me now that I never saw a sign. Oh, there was a text he’d accidentally sent our adult daughter. It was vague–something about he had just finished exercising and was “eager” to see this person. My ex said it was not his, that a friend of his had written it for his own daughter and BOTH men are incompetent texters and had fat-fingered it–the male friend fat fingered it to my then husband, and my then husband to my daughter. Fat fingers my ass. Also, how preposterous! But I firmly believed it. Oh, I also thought that maybe he was the victim of identity theft. I called Apple to discuss. We even went to the Apple store where I expressed serious concern that his phone had been hacked. My then-husband remained quiet. The poor Apple clerk must have know what was going on.
I like to think of myself as perceptive. I like to think that I’m good at reading people. So how could I have been so damn clueless?
My kids suspected the affair. They didn’t mention it to me. The thing is, I had no reason to doubt him. I never thought he would lie to me. And he was a technophobe, so it was somewhat plausible that he’d effed up.
Oh, there were also the incredibly long work hours. Suddenly he announced that he had to wake up for work at 4:30am. The poor physician, I thought. And when he didn’t return until after 9pm, I felt even MORE sorry for him. I had a gourmet dinner waiting.
I never checked his phone. I never checked anything or expected him to have an affair and lie.
Therefore, I never snooped.
These so-called “technophobes” can manage to blow $1K per month on online dating chat sites, (most likely scammed) and leave their google accounts open on old phones with all the evidence.
Oh, hang on. He also began ignoring me more and more and would engineer fights. It was a weird combo of the silent treatment and arguments.
Oh, and he was always “fly fishing.” So when he wasn’t working those long hours, he was on the river, catching “fish.” Always. I can’t overstate how often he said he was fishing.
I believed all of his excuses/lies. Heck, I even felt sorry for him. Those long work hours? How tiring! His upcoming retirement? Of course he’s worried about that and needs the calm of fishing.
The poor man! How can I help him?
#Spinachtheempath 🤦🏻♀️
The man took advantage of my trusting nature. That I was so fooled kills me and has left me feeling traumatized. That’s the only way I can explain it.
Girl, do I feel this! During COVID FW was supposedly working tons of extra hours. He would come home exhausted. Now I know that some of that time he wasn’t even at work! He was with the child mistress. I am livid that he was spending time with his sl-t in hotels and then coming home and preaching at me about how important it was to maintain our bubble as much as we could.
When he would call me from work and ask if I minded him going out with his work friends for drinks afterward I would tell him he didn’t need to ask, he deserved a break! Go! Be safe! Yeah, you probably already know he never went for works drinks. He was going to hotels with the child mistress.
When I was working from home during COVID, he would disappear for hours during the day and he was supposed to be doing something at the house or ensuring that something got done or bring me something? He was with the child mistress.
I never questioned a thing. All the overtime he supposedly worked? When he got called in for last minute shifts? When he would come home at 11pm from a shift that ended at 7 because of a last minute patient code or paperwork…you get the idea.
I feel so incredibly dumb for never seeing it. I trusted him so implicitly with our money, our daughter, my health and safety. There just aren’t many people that understand why I feel so betrayed (beyond just the cheating) and traumatized.
People keep telling me to write a book because they say nobody will believe this happened to a real person because it all seems too incredible. 🙁
“The man took advantage of my trusting nature. That I was so fooled kills me and has left me feeling traumatized. That’s the only way I can explain it.”
So understandable.
Spinach, you should be proud of your loving, trusting nature. You did nothing wrong. He acted like a dick and you tolerated him because you loved him and thought he would get over himself. You had no reason to assume he was a lying cheating cheater. Please give yourself the love you deserved all along. You’re a QUEEN!
I noticed nothing until I found a love note. TOTALLY BlindsLooking back I can see things now, but she was good and had built up 21 years of trust. After the fact it is always obvious. Today is the 2 year anniversary of Dday.
Unfortunately I was just told something about a man that I work with. Nice guy always positive who came in yesterday very sullen. I asked and he said home stuff. Another person told me his wife is distant and goes out with friends all the time coming in late. We here know that this does sound good. I will pray for the best
It is insidious how they learn to use our trust against us. We can see it fairly plainly after the fall, but while in the heat of it, it is hard to see or accept.
In an incident at our local park at a fall festival my fw even made reference to it. Long story but a woman had done something in appreciate in front of me. A few minutes later in the Park office my good friend who had witnessed it, made a snide remark about the whore; and he said “Susie wouldn’t believe I was fooling around, unless I told her”.
Ironically he was right, at least up to the point he said that. That was when my gut kicked in. Two months later on New Years day, he left for the whore. (not the whore who made the move at the park, but her best friend).
Snoop-shaming (what a great phrase, CL!) has got to stop. If you are sleeping with someone and/or have commingled money and/or share housing etc etc, then Chumps certainly have the right to start looking through their putative cheater’s phones. Trust, but verify. Looking through their phones on occasion will save you decades and hundreds of thousands of bucks.
You might be a CHUMP if the very thought of looking through their phone causes you shame.
DEFINITELY snoop-shamed! After I found real dirt, he made me promise to not look further on his FB and we made a “pact” that we would later review together, in the meanwhile we were in therapy.
Some days when I was home alone and he was at work (where most of his shenanigans occurred), I would be devoured by incontrollable anxiety and snoop more, since in therapy we were nowhere closer to getting ME closer to the truth!
My mistake was confronting him in a rage each time, because this prompted him to immediately drop his job and make the distance RACING back to the house by car in impossible record times – scary to think how fast he must have been going. He would then feel so sick he would end up throwing up.
You’d think him consumed with remorse. And that the logical think would be come fucking clean and put an end to all of this.
Nope, he eventually ended up completely erasing evidence that was on hold, making it gone forever. When I found out MORE eventually (it never ends), he mumbled “that wouldn’t even have been on FB”
They love their sin more than you, remember.
Eventually I did this too: “My mistake was confronting him in a rage each time.” That went on for about six months. He DID not like that.
It only caused him “stop” using his social media. He NEVER came clean. I never saw what was on his phone. He had a VPN on there. (What is that for anyway?)
My sense is that he is so up to his eye balls in shit, that he can’t ever come clean to himself or his kids. So for now, he’s back to being his fake “mild-mannered” self. He’s out of the house. He can live however he wants.
This VPN business is interesting. My ex suddenly hopped on a VPN when we were in another country because he wanted to watch porn. I was shocked..SHOCKED..that he new what a VPN was. He always acted so incapable when it came to computer stuff.
I still don’t understand if or how a VPN can help a cheater.
There are VPN companies like protonmail that include VPN with a secure e-mail that is really hard to break into.
Mine used his for OW but also crypto he stole from a settlement I received.
Feigning ignorance with technology is another red flag.
Porn is probably it.
“They love their sin more than you, remember.”
That’s the truth.
And they actually get a thrill from sneaking around and getting away with it. The naughtiness gooses their orgasms.
Every word gold, and baby Chumps really need to know this information.
I wish that I had gone to our preacher when I first noticed the distancing right after he got his Captains bars. Would not have changed the ending, but likely would have exposed him way sooner than it happened.
I know that our preacher would have confronted him, and even if he lied, he would have likely had to make his move much sooner as he would know he was being watched.
That was back in the days when cell phone were in their infancy, and within a year of his Captains bars, an unknown co worker filed an ethics complaint against him. I am quite sure that all the mayor had to do was to get the cell phone records and it showed his hours of conversations with his direct report, many times late into the night. He told me he was talking to the mayor or the other captain, who was schtumping another co worker. They both got busted back to LT. and my fw lost his office and went back out on the street to face the officers he had likely showed contempt’s for after he was promoted. By the way the female Captain the other guy was screwing, got to keep her bars. I will never know the reasoning, but maybe because she was single, and the male Captain was not. Or maybe a totally different reason. The mayor used organizational reasons to demote them both. They got to keep their raises but lost their power and standing.
OK by me, be cause I knew the loss of power/position was the real kick in the ass.
Anyway, fw and I D’d and he married the town whore who was his direct report, and the other demoted Captain went crawling back to his wife, whom I assume lived, and is still living with him in misery.
I am certain in all this mess, I was the lucky one.
Had he not a few years ago, caused my son and sons family a lot of pain; I likely would have never even found Chump Lady. I learned so much after the fact.
Though I do think given the lack of support and information at the time (before internet) I handled my horror fairly well. Mostly because of a strong upbringing and my father and brothers support and our dear preacher who flat out said “Susie you need to get mad”.
my X was promoted to VP and the last phase of distancing started, he lost 20 pounds, and started getting tattoos (cliche). within 9 months, he was openly contemptuous and saying derogatory things about the size of my ass (bigger than it used to be when we met 30 years ago), the state of the house (clean), and how i had moods (i was stressed). i was anxious because of a big home renovation and, as always, about his drinking.
co-dependency is a thing, right?
then i saw a text come in at 10pm after a “dinner with friend” that turned out to be a “dinner with my direct subordinate, Tisha that i didn’t want to tell you about because you’re so suspicious” that read “almost home. can i just say that i love you?” from, you know, Tisha?
that was it. all night confrontation and lots of shitty, irrational, and outright humorous things said (my X), and i listened carefully, then called a lawyer for an hour-long consult as soon as the clock rolled over to business hours.
TBH the uncovering and discovering was more eye-opening than D-day. the lies, the financial abuses, the machiavellian manipulations. i don’t know when the affair with Tisha started and i don’t care to know, not really. it’s not as if i’d believe a thing my X says, anyway. i have no way of knowing. i believe it was going on for awhile.
i had no clue who i was married to, i really didn’t. i’m SO GLAD to be rid of my X.
in therapy, i’m figuring out who i am again because i definitely lost myself in this marriage, and it started at the beginning. it’s been eye-opening. i’m also a member of al-anon. again, i’m SO GLAD to be rid of my X.
Sometimes his reaction to the idea of being caught is enough. I asked to see his phone after seeing a call with the OW (he promised he wasn’t talking to anymore) on the carrier’s call log and his reaction told me everything I needed to know. He went off about “his privacy” and he was “setting boundaries”, “I was paranoid”, etc. I used to have a thumb print on his old phone and I used to manage the GPS in the car or answer texts for him while he was driving, but NOW it’s an invasion of privacy?!
He’s smart enough that I knew anything incriminating would have been deleted or well hidden. I didn’t actually want to see his phone. I just wanted to see his reaction.
2 days later he confessed to having met up with the OW while I was out of town.
Can’t wait to listen to this today!
I never really suspected anything until D-Day and then it all made sense.
The week prior I’d found an orange hair on the bathroom counter and had that stomach drop of anxiety. In split seconds I convinced myself it was his moms… “oh she’s a natural red head” … (though not this orange, ugh@him!). Then I thought to jokingly text a photo of it to him with some sort of “hmm?” Caption before I told myself it that would be dumb and the joke wouldn’t translate (or deep down did I worry something was up?) because duhhh it’s his moms and he just saw her during the week he spent at his grandpa’s house. Case closed!
Nah case wide open. He started be extra weird. Extra sneaky. It was a Tueaday of all days (!!) and a day off for him and he barely spoke to me all day.. just sat mopey in bed playing videogames. I figured it was a bad day and gave him space. Later in the evening he was playing games on his computer and I was sitting in bed (same room) and noticed the hobby forum he was on his phone was one he used to frequent a lot. (At this point I’d like to thank the samsung galaxy s22+ whatever they’re called because the zoom on this thing is magical and is the only reason I was able to figure anything out that night! lol) I went to the forum on my phone and knew his account only to find posts from both of them doing an “ask us anything” style thread where their online friends were asking them questions on how they got together, who made the first move, how do they make it work being in 2 different states, and how she does it all being poly and married.
I went into full panic and ran to the bathroom to read more and see there were photos of them together.. remember that different states thing? Yeah the orange hair made sense now. Grandpa trip never existed, he flew to her state that week. All the while sending me photos of Gramps throughout the week, telling me stories of what they were doing. How sore 🙄 he felt working on the land helping out, just so much bullshit now that I look back. Like, “I have to use these photos from ages ago” freaking CALCULATED.
That night I’d find out the back to back work trips from last November were a lie too. He used stories and photos from the first real trip so he could convince me the next week. .. all the while hoping by the time December rolled around I wouldn’t ask anyone at the work party about it. I’m sure his anxiety was high that night, good.
Over the past few months of dealing with the aftermath of this I’ve realized the signs were there. The secrecy was always there (I thought I was being a great partner for having trust and giving privacy..I now know there’s a big difference between privacy and secrecy), the moodiness that began around the time the affair started.. chalked up to “oh he’s having anxiety about this or that or whatever”. Nah, it definitely couldn’t have been because he was attempting to live a double life, hm? Don’t even get me started on the mopey blob he was the week she found out he was sexting friends of theirs and all the shit I did to try and cheer him up 🙄🙃
In hindsight i can see was always a liar and I’d put on those rosy glasses to stop myself from hurting when nothing would change after the usual “I’m so sorry, I love you, I’ll do better” speeches happened.. and oh did they happen. It all makes sense now but I wish I wasn’t as dumb and in love 12 years ago when it first started feeling… off.
“The secrecy was always there (I thought I was being a great partner for having trust and giving privacy..I now know there’s a big difference between privacy and secrecy), the moodiness that began around the time the affair started.. chalked up to “oh he’s having anxiety about this or that or whatever”. Nah, it definitely couldn’t have been because he was attempting to live a double life, hm?”
^ ^ This was exactly it for me, too. I never really thought about it, I just knew that I was a good partner. I trusted him fully. Truthfully, I always thought he was too lazy to cheat! He’s the most introverted, grumpy person I’ve ever known. Turns out grumpy introverts can still cheat by finding all their victims online and paying them for OF, online s3x and finally sugar babying. If not for the internet and all the shady websites on there he wouldn’t have been able to cheat. He wouldn’t be able to get his little blue pills or find women willing to be with him for money.
I just want to vomit
triggered – check
what happened when I followed the evidence?
confronted and gaslighted
felt guilty for questioning his integrity, felt guilty for almost snooping. I was shamed for questioning his behaviour with the ho-guest on our boat.
Howrecker was just short of humping him in front of me. In her skimpy bikini leaning over him, touching him, sitting on him, asking him to take her pic while she provocatively posed for the camera he was holding. I apologized to her for telling her to fuckoff after seeing him kiss her. He was so good at gaslighting he convinced me that I just imagined the whole thing, you know I was tired, jealous, insecure, overreacting etc.
I think I was so dumbfounded, mortified by her behaviour and that ditch pig’s lack of awareness on how unbelievably cruel he was being. Put me in not a good place and to this day more then 3yrs later I still do not understand why I tolerated not only what she was doing but that he seemed to enjoy all the attention. Frig, he went ape-ship mental because I was chatting to a couple of Austrian men from a different boat at a cruisers beach bbq. that ditch pig was bordering on violence to the point where I hid myself in the vacant bunk cabin. I blamed it on myself of course and him being drunk. I was sober, we had guests and needed someone in the right mind to get us safely back to the boat. I should have left, but I stayed. I didn’t want to make a scene.
Abuse fucks with one’s ability to think straight. He was abusive, self-centered and oh so ego-centric and I so wanted to believe in him, trust him and probably deep down just thought this was all normal or that I deserved to be treated this way. To everyone else (accept for a few) he was a fun guy, life of the party.
there were pictures from the 1st time she came down to the boat for our club week, lots of pictures. When she wanted to come back for the regatta and he asked me if he should let her and I said no but he let her anyway I was the surveillance police. This is not a nice ‘job’ or head space to be in. Was I miserable? Oh, yeah. But I stayed! for this I am angry and upset with myself still to this day. This was all so unacceptable, don’t walk, run away.
I lost my shit when I found the evidence in messenger technicolor. what a creep, that cuntasaurous did me a favour and I’m sure she was not the only one in our 7yrs together.
I definitely had a spidey sense tingling from the guarding of the phone/putting a password on the phone… having to leave family vacations for a day to conduct job interviews (huh?)… skipping trips with our son all together (just can’t get away from work)… trust me, his work isn’t that demanding nor is he that important.
So a friend told me how to install a softward program on his computer that captured keystrokes (this was back in 2009, cutting edge stuff)… and within 24 hours I had access to his email ACCOUNTS… which led to emails he sent in response to Backpage and Craigslists in addition to responding to people who answered his personal ads. So that sent me to our joint bank accounts records where I discovered a debit card charge at a hotel – when he was “just going out to shoot pool”… which led me to check phone records and time spent googling phone numbers and found they belong to escorts from Craigslist.
One date stood out… he backed out at the last minute from going to the first birthday our son had been invited to from his daycare… instead, he went and got serviced by a hooker.
When confronted… intense gaslighting commenced… how dare I snoop on him (anger channel)… how dare I challenge his behavior when he’s been nothing but faithful… then shifting to remorse (pity channel)… “nothing ever happened”… then the charm channel came out with flowers and cards promising he’ll do better… I even got a “mix CD” of love songs.
I didn’t know about CL and CN then… I only knew the RIC and I worked for 5 more years and 3 more d-days trying to save my intact family and marriage only to have him discard me for an OW he met at the gym and to whom he told that we were already separated and taking separate family vacations (news to me).
The irony, preparing for the divorce, in finding that though he was “in love” with the OW… he wasn’t quite enough in love to stop his backdoor behaviors and be faithful to her. She dumped him when he was outed to her anonymously. No matter, he had a new GF from the gym weeks later (and just married her)… and anyone who read yesterday’s article know how that went.
SO _ if you have to marriage police, ask yourself right then and there what you will do WHEN you find something. Have a game plan, talk to a lawyer FIRST… ducks in a row… even if you aren’t ready to leave, know your options.
Although I never got confirmation on him cheating, the signs were there. Lap dances at strip clubs during his annual hunting trip. A hunting trip with his buddies, a trip I encouraged him to attend, because he had worked hard and deserved it. Then a couple of “hook up” website pictures that were texted to his phone. He showed them to me and explained it was someone, one of his competitors from work trying to “piss him off” , “make him look bad to me”! I was stupid enough to believe him.
Then it all came home to roost! He turned everything on me, he rewrote history. I was the one cheating on him, he had suspected me for the last 10 years. He started with old lingerie he found in my drawer, accusing me that I hadn’t been wearing it for him. Boy oh boy, I wish I could fit into that size 6! He didn’t care how old it was, he was the detective and he had his evidence. He accused me of cheating with my brother in law, which was beyond hurtful. That brother in law, I am his children’s God mother, I would never dream of doing something so ludicrous! He planted tracking and listening devices in cars, the scenario was now on steroids. He was searching thru my phone like a rabid dog, trying to connect the dots. I was so nervous I erased a message from my brother in law, regarding use of his washing machine that I could use, because mine was broken. When he asked me if I had erased messages, I was truthful, I said “yes”. I explained why, but oh no, the detective was on it. I was raked over the coals over and over again. Him trying to connect miscellaneous facts, stringing them together in some weird scenario. Thru it all I tried to save my marriage. Thru it all, it was all about ME, what I had done! If I turned the tables on him, questioning him, he became an immediate monster.
After 2 years of seriously trying to work thru this I left! I packed my shit up while himself drove to the drug store to get a UTI test strip. Because he did not believe me that I had a UTI, that I would not have sex with him. When he returned from the drug store, I tore the bag out of his hand, peed on the test strip and handed it to him. I told him that he will never treat me like a whore again. Also that he wouldn’t want someone treating our grown daughters that way. I left, hired an attorney, and am NEVER going back.
I have read so many stories in CL with the same crap happening. Thank you CN, I now know that I am not the only one out there who has lived through the rewriting of history!
I am moving on!!
Ugh. Crazy how they accuse of what they are doing.
Mine said I talked about wanting to have a threesome with two of his male friends. WHAT? I never, ever, ever wanted that or would have said I wanted that. So weird and gaslight-y.
*how they accuse us of what they are doing
How effed up was I? I was so effed up I felt ashamed for my “snooping” when I gained online access to OUR JOINT CHECKING ACCOUNT. He didn’t know I could see it — I’d gotten my own login a few months earlier when I’d been at the bank with my daughter setting up her account. It was the first time in my own 24-year marriage that I dared to peek at my own money! He’d always gotten the bank statements delivered to his office.
I felt like a criminal. I would wait until he left for work and get online and try and see what was going on with my own money.
Yes. You have been trained to be a spectator in your own life. I am dealing with a lot of guilt too. FW brainwash us to see the world as they see it.
If it makes you feel better, I also felt that I was somehow out of line when I finally got online access to our joint checking account. My ex had taken care of bills for decades; I had done it, but gave it over to him when he complained. Looking back over his expenditures for several years made clear to me just how chumpy I’d been.
Oh yeah I went through his phone while he slept. Discovered explicit texts from OW. He woke up to find me standing over him. I said, “So I saw the texts from your tutoring student. Care to explain what kind of tutoring session takes place in a hotel room and requires the tutor to wear “that special oil I like so much”?” He got the deer-in-headlights look. I swear I could almost see the cogs in his head turning, desperately searching for plausible deniability. Finding none, he admitted to the affair. I texted my parents to tell them I had a major sinus headache and couldn’t make it to their Christmas party, then had myself a long cry in the bath. GG, meanwhile, came up with the brilliant idea to open our marriage. I stupidly agreed to it. Surprise, surprise, he proceeded to break every agreement of our “open” marriage. He did sleep with at least one AP in our bed, judging by the texts he “accidentally” sent me. He continued withholding sex from me, although I count that as a blessing in disguise when I tested negative for STDs. I, meanwhile, somehow managed to get enough energy to keep going to work and the gym, but emotionally I was numb. Finding an AP of my own was the last thing on my mind.
Agreeing to open our marriage was a chump move, but it did buy me time to process what was happening and to confirm that he sucks, so not entirely a mistake. I filed for divorce less than 7 months after D-Day.
On my first D-Day it was quite accidental viewing of a text message that popped up when I was walking past my h’s computer monitor. But the 2nd time, about a year later, I purposefully looked through his cell phone messages when I had the chance, and did so un-apologetically. Because I needed answers, and no way could I rely on my double-life leading lying liar who lies to give me truthful answers. Reading it sent me into psychological shock because the messages back & forth were infinitely worse than I could have imagined. I could have continued on living with the guy and moving to a different part of the world where I didn’t know anyone if I hadn’t gone looking for the answer to the question I had of whether or not he had actually broken things off with the OW after D-Day #1 as he promised he would. Continued living a life where he was texting her while in the same bed as me (!), saying he was just taking care of work things. (She was his employee). I’m SO glad I snooped and avoided a horrible continued existence with him, despite how traumatic it was to read what I read.
I’m sure my retinas would detach if I could read FW’s phone.
I was hardcore snoop-shamed. By cheater AND the flying monkeys. Cheater informed me that me not trusting her meant that I was the untrustworthy one. And she proceeded to shame, gaslight, verbally abuse, threaten, and yell at me for snooping to confirm my suspicions. The flying monkeys weren’t as cruel and kind of understood as she WAS openly cheating on me, but it just added to the overall experience of abuse. And of course my snooping, which once was even just accidentally clicking on another open browser tab on the device she had me use, was a betrayal worse than anything and warranted all the rage and punishment apparently. My take now, years outside of the situation, is if you suspect, the truth is FAR worse than you ever imagined possible and it’s time to run.
I have to agree. The truth is out there and it’s probably terrible.
Really enjoyed that.
Ah, snooping. I believe I wasn’t the only one who did it when I suspected Snakeface and Tuberculosis were having their affair.
Snakeface has held different positions in long-term care, where the majority of his co-workers have been women. He met Tuberculosis, a nurse, at work. They were friends with another department director, “Griselda”, and the three of them hung out together quite a bit, during coffee breaks and lunch, and in closed-door meetings together when their work intersected. Or that’s what I was told. Some of it was probably legit.
One summer weekend when we were at my in-laws’ lake cabin, Snakeface, his sister and brother, their spouses, his parents and I were lingering over the breakfast table, and Snakeface told a story about “Jerry”, a custodian at work he and other co-workers didn’t like because he had a reputation for being nosy and sneaky, along with other bad habits. One day, he, Tuberculosis and Griselda opened the door after one of those closed-door meetings to find Jerry on the other side of it, clearly eavesdropping. “It was disgusting, he’s such a sleaze,” Snakeface said. I was the only one at the table that didn’t agree how appalling it was. I just kept my mouth shut, inwardly rolled my eyes and thought “You asshole, you’re clearly not being as discreet as you think you are, and your co-workers are picking up on the vibe between you and TB. You two brought Jerry’s snooping on all by yourselves.”
My ex-FW trickle truthed and re-wrote history, even in response to my strongest evidence.
With very few exceptions, proving cheating MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. In-laws don’t care, co-workers don’t care, neighbor don’t care, lawyers don’t care. Therapists make a good part of their income from the drawn-out process of discovery. The number of people who will offer more support because the cheating is proven is nil.
The ones who do show up only need to hear the relationship is unacceptable to you, that you are ending it and that your every future action is toward that end.
If you do have evidence, share it with a lawyer and have them (NOT YOU) negotiate the strongest settlement you can get. This will reclaim the first bit of ownership over your own future.
I’m one of those with an exception, ICST. FW was outed by the cops, who told our young teenager and me about FW’s Vegas marriage to the AP – while FW and I were still married, btw. Long, outrageous story about how the cops got involved, but I’ve told it before, so I won’t repeat it.
Anyway, I had long suspected something was amiss, and of course FW denied it, lied, gaslight, etc., but once it was proven, FW didn’t try to hide it or blame me. He never accused me of cheating, and he repeatedly told my son what a good mother I am. I attempted wreckonciliation, which of course didn’t work because FW was still a FW in all the ways that mattered. He kept lying, kept seeing the AP when he said he wasn’t, etc., but all my in-laws stood beside me when they found out the truth, especially his sister, who was one of my rocks and confidants throughout the whole ugly mess, co-workers also were very kind (I blabbed to close co-workers), and even co-workers I didn’t know that well would come up to me to ask me if I was ok because I’d lost a lot of weight, and when I would give them a very brief explanation, they would give very supportive responses, friends were great, neighbors I barely knew who found out through a close friend/neighbor were so kind to me, lawyer was supportive, I had good therapists, etc.
So, I was very fortunate, and all the support helped me see how many really good people there are in the world. But even with all that support, I still had PTSD, still had to go on meds for a while, and I will likely never, ever reach complete meh, although I am much better 4 years out from divorce. I think it just goes to show how incredibly abusive infidelity really is. I went through it with all the support in the world and it was and still is horrific because I lost my entire life, both my past and my future.
“He kept lying, kept seeing the AP when he said he wasn’t, etc., but all my in-laws stood beside me when they found out the truth, especially his sister, who was one of my rocks and confidants throughout the whole ugly mess”
Same. His sister was entirely on my side and helped me a lot during the divorce, and after FW died I actually became closer with his family (he didn’t talk to them and he forbade me from doing so, probably because they knew things he didn’t want me to know, which would invalidate all his sad stories of childhood trauma). My son is thrilled to have another set of grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins. FW’s parents hate OW, in large part because they are aware of the fact that she played a big role in FW’s suicide. OW never met his family at all. They are some of the few people who have supported me through everything.
I feel this. Thank you for sharing.
I’m sorry CBN. You did not deserve it!! I hope you are in a better place mentally and spiritually.
My security engineer husband had his satnav linked to the home computer, I could see exactly where & when he went, he denied it still, said I must have got someone to break in to his 2 phones!!!! One of which he guarded with his life…..gaslighting gold medal to the ex fuckwit,
However, took me 4+years to pin him down & finally get rid, adult kids want nothing to do with him, Happy days, I’m currently on my first solo holiday in Cyprus, sporting the best tan ever, I’ve had a great time, doing what I want when I want, without a miserable, moaning whinger hanging on 😁
My STBXFW did a lot of horrible shit over the 30 years we were together. One of the worst was when I was nine months pregnant with our second child. We were on “clean up duty” at our son’s preschool. All of the kids were out on the playground and the parent volunteers, me, FW and another mom were inside cleaning up the classroom. The two of them were flirting with each other right in front of me. Getting off on it. I confronted FW with a “What the fuck just happened?” as we were leaving and he totally gaslit me. “What are you talking about? There was no flirting. Are YOU flirting with her?” Absolutely bullshit. But I was hugely pregnant and I swept it under the rug. A couple days later, I had just gotten the news that the VBAC that I so desperately wanted wasn’t going to happen and my baby was likely 11 pounds. I had to have another c-section. I was devastated. So we started walking around the block to induce labor. In the middle of our walk FW stops walking and spills his guts to me about the affair with the preschool mom. The details are still fuzzy to me about what he said he did with her (this was 18 years ago) but in that moment I turned to him and said “I’m about to give birth to an 11 pound baby. I don’t have time for your shit. Stop this crap. End it now.” And I walked up to our apartment and didn’t think about it again for 15 YEARS. He had actually given me brain damage in that moment. I now know that I experienced dissociative amnesia. It was my brain’s way of protecting me because of the incredibly vulnerable state I was in at the time. He damaged my brain. To this day I have a terrible memory and I immediately block out things that upset me. I’m learning to get better about this. Retraining my brain.
BTW, my baby ended up being only 9 pounds 5 ounces thank goodness! Still a big baby, but not the giant they told me he’d be.
“The two of them were flirting with each other right in front of me. Getting off on it. I confronted FW with a “What the fuck just happened?” as we were leaving and he totally gaslit me. “What are you talking about? There was no flirting. Are YOU flirting with her?” Absolutely bullshit.”
This happened to me too. I would see things with my own eyes and he would try and tell me I was batshit crazy for thinking anything was going on. And he also accused me of trying to flirt with OW. It was weird. If I dressed cute to try and get his attention (ugh, pick me dancing SO hard), he’d ask if I was doing it for HER. He was strangely jealous.
MW, I understand. I’m so sorry for what happened to you.
At D-Day, I had been married to FW for 35 years. After receiving a text by mistake, I asked and he confirmed that he had been fucking whores at massage parlors for several years.
I felt like I floated out of my body and was looking down at myself screaming at him. After a few minutes I “came back” to myself. I can’t believe I didn’t have a heart attack.
FW has never conceded that he damaged me psychologically with his abuse. He blamed it on my FOO.
It’s pretty amazing how snooping is considered (by FWs and many others) as behavior that is more egregious than cheating/betrayal, isn’t it? I was married in the pre-cell phone, pre-social media era, so cell phones, email, and social media weren’t available as a source of clues to partner cheating.
My ex wasn’t mean to me and he didn’t pick fights, but he would openly ogle other women and flirt, with complete disregard for my feelings. I always had a spidey sense telling me that he was looking for “opportunities,” and I couldn’t trust him. I had the sense he didn’t feel I was pretty enough for him and he felt he was missing out. When we were in our first year of marriage and he went on a business trip, a coworker kidded me by saying something along the lines of “Aren’t you worried he’ll cheat?” and I got a horrible sinking feeling in my gut, realizing I really didn’t trust him. But I never had any evidence.
Then, when we were married for about 8 years, we stopped by his place of work after an evening out because he had to take care of something that would take about half an hour. While he was busy, I used the opportunity to surreptitiously snoop through his desk drawers and immediately found evidence of an ongoing affair. (I can’t remember what pretext I used for snooping, but I’m sure I had one in my back pocket.) He was smart enough to not leave evidence at home and thus was so unprepared for getting caught that he admitted everything. He’d been having a 2-years-plus affair with someone he met on a train to his parents for Christmas–I wasn’t with him, because my mom had just been badly injured in a car crash (fortunately, she survived) and I told him that it was fine for him to spend a happier Christmas with his folks than stay with me at my parents’ house. No good deed goes unpunished.
I found evidence of affair #2 (that I know of) a few years later, again because of snooping. It was not at his workplace, because he was smart enough to not allow that to happen again, but something more subtle that happened at home. I then told him I had an anonymous call that he was cheating (not true, but desperate times call for desperate measures). He was shocked, caught completely off guard, and admitted that he was having an affair. I filed for divorce and left some months later (after a lot of turmoil and some stupid interim choices on my part, etc.).
If it weren’t for snooping, I might still be married to him, with my gut churning year after year because my instincts told me he couldn’t be trusted. I have zero guilt for the snooping or the lie I told him about the anonymous call that tricked him into admitting what I already knew in my gut.
I don’t believe that married people CAN “snoop” on each other because they’ve an obligation and duty to be completely open and honest with each other, as well as totally faithful to one another!
IMO, the only secrets that it is licit to keep from one’s spouse are nice surprises , such as a surprise party or a Christmas or birthday present! This is because such secrets are going to be revealed and will be a positive experience for the spouse who’d had the secret kept from them, something which makes the feel happy and loved!
Evil secrets like adultery, are kept secret because they’re evil;
They will cause pain, damage and destruction to innocent parties when revealed!
If you’re not doing anything wrong, you would allow your spouse to look and use your phone, laptop etc.! STBXH always used my laptop and my email address until he got a smart phone and started his life of lies and disgusting betrayals! He knows I looked at his phone and he didn’t complain about it because he wouldn’t have a leg to stand on seeing as he always had total access to my devices ( and me to his old mobile phone before he started betraying me!). I don’t feel one bit guilty! If he’d had nowt to hide, he’d have let me use his smart phone the way I let him use my laptop!
I had to reframe “snooping” as “safety seeking” behavior.
Like if an intruder hid in the backseat of your car, you would check the backseat before you get into any car.
Yes, the signs both large and small. I didn’t want to see them. As devastating as it was when he took off to live in another state, the distance and how he behaved during that period ended my hopium habit. When I looked at the whole of our last years together and his behavior during separation, I said no way. Then with my attorney, he asked me to provide an outline of the signs of adultery because I live in a for-cause state. He said most definitely, from his forty-plus years of divorce law. Then his attorney overshared and confirmed. It really didn’t matter because we settled without a trial, but my closure came from the attorneys, who decided together that I was the rare “Mother Teresa married to Attila the Hun.”
I lost my best friend last week to cancer, and she had shared her suspicions about her husband including his raging porn habit. She told me several times that I was the only one that knew. But when we first had that discussion, she had beat the first round of cancer and was feeling more hopeful about her marriage because they were in counseling. After the second round of cancer, she gave up on couples’ counseling and just went herself, telling me that she had decided to just learn to cope. When the third round of cancer hit, the signs were even greater that he was unfaithful, but she was in the fight of her life. I went by one time to take her some things, and her husband overtly flirted with me. I was creeped out. After that, I didn’t go unless he was at work.
Now she’s at peace, but I plan to stay away from her husband on Saturday at the events. Just ick.
I’m so sorry for the loss of your friend. And her husband sounds awful.
Thanks. He is indeed awful. I won’t share all the horrors here, but she said more than a few times that she would have left and lived with one of her older adult kids if they had not all been newly married in the last few years. She didn’t want to impose upon them that way. When she had finished the last round of cancer treatment, she told me that she had accepted that her husband’s life was not part of her life other than living in the same house. Two months later, she entered hospice.
Your poor friend, this is heartbreaking! You must be heartbroken and miss her like mad, I’m so sorry for your loss.
That evil man will pay for what he did to her, either in this life or the next. Shame on him, foul creature!
That story is so sad, Elsie, and the husband infuriates me. He wouldn’t even stop when she was dying! 😡Cancer cheaters are the worst.
Sorry about your friend.
Where can we leave questions re podcast if mic not working? Thanks.
I had a terrible time finding a therapist who thinks cheating is abuse.
The minute I mention cheating and abuse in the same sentence in the intake interview they want to refer me on, however they don’t really know any therapists that take that stand.
I would like to know why the podcast therapist DOESN’T think it’s abuse?
Finding a supportive therapist who isn’t all sad sausage towards FW
And who gets that it’s abusive is re-traumatizing.
The voice mail mic would not record for me. I wanted to ask Andrew a question since my postman didn’t know how to answer this. My STBXH Confessed he had other woman because I would not do XYZ with him. So doing the pick me dance i did XYZ. Then he said A+ on the XYZ but I should have started sooner. Now that I was good with XYZ how about uping the game with UVW? Ok good now wity UVW then more requests in order to keep him faithful. At what point do these special requests end and at what point do I get to keep an ( unknown to me) serial cheater? The goal post for staying married to Mr Wonderful kept moving. My lawyer helped me to end the alphabet recitation and get my own life back.
Now I am free to be with those who play fair and actually love me rather than keeping me on as a trained seal.
That question would stump any RIC type, 2x. They predicate their beliefs on the notion that a cheater is going to be reasonable and fair when reconciling, which we know they will not do.
I chased the goalposts as well. Then he had the audacity to tell his family that I didn’t like sex and “never” initiated even though bedroom time was literally several hours a day, often seven days a week.
After he made the separation long-distance, our therapist couldn’t get out the words “sex addict” fast enough. She said no way was he going to be faithful during a separation that was supposed to be for working on our marriage. And no way was the marriage going to survive that many miles when we were already in trouble. I still took hopium for a year and then gave up. No reconciliation. The lawyers came along some months later.
Life is good being a human again though.
I feel like the ” they don’t like sex” card gets pulled out way too often. I am sure there are couples that find themselves on different pages sexually. Libidos change for any number of valid reasons, and sex is very important to many people. But what I see on this page, and your story is a great example, is that the FW trots that excuse out. And I think there is a lot of shame for the chumps in those situations. It can make us feel like WE are to blame, us frigid prudes. In the meantime, you and your FW were having what I think be universally described as a LOT of sex. But he goes and tells people that he left because you didn’t like sex. No one questions that and while I don’t know what you did, I know that many chumps would not argue the truth because they don’t want to blast details of their sex life all over town. (“I’m not a prude, he wanted me to spank him while he wore ladies panties and I did it every night for a six months!” ) Mine kept trying to say he didn’t feel wanted…yet I was pick me dancing like top notch stripper pulling out all the stops. What he really wanted was limerence , that desire that only an OW can show because they are new, shiny and aren’t cleaning his toilets and doing his laundry. Chumps can’t compete with the excitement of a new AP that involves sneaking around.
I love the podcast! Thanks.
About chumps noticing that cheaters’ smell changed (we now know, due to cheating): this happened to me, except it wasn’t about where his genitals had been (from the podcast), but where his mouth had been. I remembered joking (denial, denial) that I didn’t want to think about where his mouth had been.
And, chump here, actually made an appointment for him at the gastroenterologist. Sparkledick was so angry about all of this, except for a brief, fleeting smirk that I now recognize as duping delight.
That blurb about “wait six months” is insane. These assholes can ruin you financially in six months. Especially if they know you know, they will go into overdrive to abscond with all the assets they can.
At the very least get a legal separation and separate your financial obligations. All but a handful of states in the us allow some form of legal separation, though they might not use those exact words to describe it.
In the 9 months of our separation so far, FW has blown through everything in our joint accounts and our daughter’s account. $34k. This is on top of the $240k that I’ve been able to find spent on affairs despite him refusing to do discovery or turn over access to several credit cards and accounts. His lawyer claims that I can’t have/don’t need that money. If I get the house that should cancel out everything (it doesn’t). Basically, they want me destitute, with nothing to support myself or take care of our daughter because he’s already spent it. He’s taken the child mistress on two vacations and several long weekends during our separation.
“These assholes can ruin you financially in six months. Especially if they know you know, they will go into overdrive to abscond with all the assets they can.”
Quoted for truth.
I’d leave a question for that Andrew Marshall guy if I thought I’d get an honest answer. RIC quacks will evade, lie and gaslight just like cheaters. CL will probably make him very uncomfortable. 😁
Andrew Marshall wasn’t interviewed during Tracy’s second podcast. She just linked a previous blog post reference to him.
I remember when it seemed like a light had switched off wit my ex. Around the time I now know his affair started with his young, married employee. I found out 4 months later. In between that, I noticed all the typical signs: glued to his phone, smiling and texting, taking the phone into the bathroom with him for an hour (I legit was worried he had a health issue). He didn’t necessarily pick fights but he was very dismissive of me, his eyes had an absent look on the rare occasions he even looked me in the eyes. He lost interest in our toddler son and spent no time with him. I remember asking him if someone else had his attention twice, and both times he got nasty and told me I was crazy. But yet, on D-Day at 3am when I found those : little texts by accident, while waking him up from our couch after being “out with a friend” too late and drunk… I was still totally shocked and devastated. I was so naive, so trusting and in total denial he’d blow our little family up. and he did, for an ugly, narcissistic married direct report who probably thought this was all a game. Ugh, sometimes meh just goes out the door and I still just hate trek both so much. Not just about what they did to my marriage, but to my son who was only a year old at the time.
For the past two days, I am unfortunately dreaming of my ex-FW. I am trying not to read too much into it but it happens now after nearly 3 years of being FW-free. so the timing is a bit strange…
Anyway, what to do if you suspect them of cheating is a great topic… Unfortunately, I was so trusting, I had a feeling that things were off but D-day only happened because he confessed…
Things that are suspicious that I dismissed because of trust include
– finding a thong behind the radiator of his apartment (as we are helping move out). His explanation was that he was a bad cleaner and never bothered to clean the radiators in all the years, so it must have been left by the previous tenant.
– I had a very very goodlooking girlfriend. I introduced her to him and she told me she didn’t like how he looked at her, that he gave her casanova vibes and that I deserve better…
anyhoo
I have done everthing I shouldn’t have. Later I found out that chumps were warned against each and every one those things in LACGAL. If after the discovery you are told that he/she needs time to think, just do not waste a one more minute. They are looking for ways to deceive you longer and waste your precious time. I thought my case was different because we were in love, the perfect couple! Wrong. While you’re lost in confusion, you replay the romance you lived (or thought you did) in your head thinking that you need to be strong to save your relationship, your partner will be enjoying cake and feeling absolutely no remorse in deceiving you longer. Just kick him/her out and start to show some respect for yourself, otherwise they will suck every bit of your life energy as long as you let them.
I didn’t suspect anything. I was kicked in the face and gut. She ran away from home. Her mother said “don’t worry, she’ll come back” and “oh, she just went to him for diet pills because they do that together.” I moved out, I got an attorney, I thought she was having a break down, then I made mistake after mistake which I now think was shock. Regardless, she was still lying to me for an entire week after she came home until her daughter tipped me off about “smoking when nervous” which I found out was actually pot use – lots of pot use that included sneaking around for drugs while I was at work, and other drugs done while we were married, engaged and dating. I read this website 3 and 4 times a day until the shock turned into a fog and I finalized the divorce papers after 3 months. But even then I was so off balance I made mistake after mistake until I finally left for another state, another life, and a plan I had developed years before I met her. Now I’m wrestling with how in the world I made so many mistakes and missed so much and ignored so much.
I am curious: change of smell was mentioned. What are you talking about? I’d like to know about this in case god forbid, it ever happens in the next relationship?