Wouldn’t it be nice if every toxic person just came with a giant forehead tattoo? Then you could really sort the wheat from the chaff. But as we chumps sadly know, they don’t. And we have the therapy and legal bills to prove it.
I’m often asked — did you see any signs? What would you do differently? How did you discover you were dating a flaming personality disorder and not a mild-mannered government employee? (No offense to our hard working civil servants, I mistakenly assumed a 20 year career in a federal bureaucracy meant my ex would be a solid, if dull choice.)
Did I see signs? Yes. But at the time, I had no way of reading them. No wingnut decoder ring. Part of this was my own chumpiness — what signs I saw, I spackled — and part of it was nothing like this had ever happened to me before. To my knowledge, I’d never been cheated on (of course you could argue, I was a chump, how would I know?) It was really beyond me to imagine that some people are predatory and are capable of living a double life. Like most people, I view the world through my own moral lens. I knew about mental illness, but I didn’t really understand personality disorders. And I certainly wouldn’t recognize a sociopath if he bought me dinner.
This blog is mostly a long recitation of Don’t Make the Idiotic Mistakes I Made Once. So, yes, I’d like to think I’m smarter and wiser now. So, for what it’s worth, here’s a list of the signs I would now take as red flags. Please add your own for the benefit of future chumps everywhere. Maybe if we could spot these people earlier on, and more importantly, identify our own chump weaknesses — we could avoid some serious heart break and wasted years.
(Or we could resort to forehead tattoos.)
Anywho, here’s my list. Keep in mind any couple of these could be perfectly normal, but added up? Yeah, I’d take a pass. Without further ado…
1. He moved fast. Infatuation feels great, but after a few weeks of dating him, it occurred to me that he liked me a bit too much for someone who didn’t know me that well. Of course, who doesn’t like to be adored? Kibbles are awesome. But, as I’ve said elsewhere, they’re also junk food without substance. The flattery, the attention, the sex. It’s all very heady. People who study personality disorders call this phase “love bombing.” It was a full sparkle onslaught. After our second date he told me he wanted to date me exclusively. In less than a month he told me he loved me. Within 4 months he talked about wanting to marry me and by 6 months, he was spending a lot more time at my place than his own.
I thought this was okay, because he “wanted a commitment.” But I remember saying at other times “What exactly did I do to impress you so much?” Even to a chumpy idiot like me, it seemed over the top.
But like every sucker, I wanted to believe. The sparkles hooked me. I thought Mr. Sparkles was the real guy. I should’ve slowed it all way down. I’m convinced they can’t disguise the crazy for over a year. He amped up the drama with “needing” to take a job out of state. He pushed for a commitment because of the move. Again, I should’ve not felt rushed. Crazy people usually want to seal the deal and fast. Once I was married, moved, and isolated — then the abuse really began openly.
2. He called too much. It almost seemed clingy. But I see now, as an experienced serial cheater, he was assessing my whereabouts. He wanted to know what I was doing that evening, and the next day. He checked in a lot. I didn’t see him every day, but that didn’t strike me as unusual. I had a full life. But he was anxious to keep me on the line and interested in him. As I later discovered, when the other life was revealed, he was constantly checking in with the OW and other women. How he managed to do work a job or perform life chores was beyond me.
3. He cancelled plans at the last minute. I should add to this, he was strangely unavailable for important dates, like his birthday. Or available to see me after I’d been gone a week out of town. The shady inability to manage his time was the hugest red flag I got. And his anger at ME when HE was the one to bail. I was understanding the first several times. Then I dumped him. He then began a new charm offensive to win me back, and was good as gold (so I thought) until I married him. He never canceled a date again — he just got better at taking his life underground.
4. When I was with him, I felt charmed. When he left, I felt uneasy. I couldn’t even tell you why. I had a gut feeling. Then he would appear again, and charm me and I’d think I was overreacting, or had him wrong. It was me, my issues. Nothing to be paranoid about!
Listen to your gut. ALWAYS listen to your gut. The gut knew.
5. I mistook intelligence for character. He was accomplished. Made a lot of himself from humble beginnings. Had advanced degrees. Earned a good living. I mistook this for character — I read things into that that were not there, like he was a good person, or he knew how to manage money, or he had any common sense. Yes, he was intelligent — and so what? He was a dreadful person. He was disdainful of anyone else’s intelligence. He Knew Best. The dentist, the doctor — they didn’t know their job, he knew more. He had to be the smartest person in the room. The arrogance should’ve been a huge red flag. I stereotyped him — thought he was just an alpha lawyer, a bit jerky. I projected warm fuzzies on to him that were not there. “Oh he’s a marshmallow, deep down.” No — scratch the surface and it was bedrock jerk.
6. He was okay with a lack of reciprocity. I was a single mother who earned a fraction of what he earned. After we were engaged, and he moved in with me for months, he never paid a single bill, never bought a bag of groceries. Reason given — he had his house to maintain, his ex-wife cleaned him out in the divorce, etc. I should’ve noticed how free he was to spend money on himself — and not on our shared life. Big chumpy mistake. I thought my generosity meant he would do the same for me. I assumed. Wrongly.
7. Either he didn’t introduce me to his friends, or he simply didn’t have friends. He was the picture of charm with my friends. To a person (with one exception) they adored him. And while we did group outings with them, he did not have a group of friends that ever invited him (or us) anywhere. He said his ex-wife got their friends in the divorce, and most friends his age were married and busy with family. Seemed reasonable. His close “friends” lived out of state (douchebags I met at my wedding). He had work acquaintances but no real friends. He wasn’t introverted. I should’ve puzzled at that.
8. He was vague about his past. I couldn’t get a real time line on when he was married to wife #1 and #2. When what happened. Over the years, the story always shifted, but I remembered snippets of it, enough, that I was able to track down #2 and get her story (a horror fest, he was a serial cheater — same OW). If you think that’s odd — consider that when it did come up he would go into this convincing sad, spiel about how he’d had therapy and realized He Wasn’t The Best Husband, and wasn’t bitter towards his exes, and he wished them well, etc., etc.
Now, as a chump? I’d see that as total BULLSHIT. He told me they cheated on him. I thought it was painful, that’s why he didn’t bring it up. His narrative was nothing like a chump narrative — all the easy forgiveness, the We All Made Mistakes Here — total crap. But I thought that was the enlightened therapy speaking. He was just very evolved.
9. I mistook sex for intimacy. I thought because he liked to have sex with me, he liked ME. All of me. Dorky me. Not just the sum of my parts, but you know, the parts of me that I like best about myself. I filled in the blanks for him. No, he was just a horny goat. I could’ve been anyone.
10. He was shit at gift giving. They say this is the hallmark of the narcissist — they suck at gifts. (Give you something? Why? What’s in it for me?) He did some grand gestures, but they always involved something for him too — a nice dinner out, a trip somewhere (that we went Dutch on). Actual GIFTS? Once he recycled something he gave his mother and she didn’t like it. (A black shawl. Seriously).
To give a gift well you need empathy. You have to think… what would Tracy really like? (My husband is awesome at this). Pinecone elves! PG Wodehouse! British movies! These things are distinctively my fetishes. To give me these things you’d have to put aside your disdain for 1940s Xmas kitch and buy the pinecone elf because you know it would please me (even though you think it is a dusty waste of $15). Because to please me pleases you.
Narcissists can’t do this. I got a pen for my 40th birthday. I got a tie-dyed license plate cover for Xmas after DDay. I should’ve dumped him for that alone. Forget the serial cheating — a man who gives a woman a license plate cover for Xmas is a man who should be divorced. On those grounds, solely.
Chumps, I should’ve known I deserved better. You deserved better too. Tell me — what signs did you miss? What will you look for in the future so you don’t get chumped again? Let’s make a list!
This column ran previously. Feel free to comment!
I can tick all of these ✔️✔️✔️✔️✔️✔️✔️✔️✔️✔️
He was super vague about his past. He said most of his relationships had ended because they had “just gotten bored of each other and both moved on”. Yeah, right. And he lovebombed me and called me WAY too much during the lovebombing phase, which stupid chumpy me took as him just being interested in me #swooningidiot
I recall a time he phoned, at the very beginning of our relationship, when I was at the gym. I told him I was working out at the gym, and within 10mins he was there at the gym checking up on me! I told him he was being a bit of a stalker, and that I didn’t like it. But he gave me the shocked, disappointed puppy eyes and said he thought I had said “meet me at the gym”. Arghhh, such a rookie mistake, I should’ve seen through him right then and there. #ifonlyiknewthenwhatiknownow
Oh the love bombing. …he wrote (real actual letters you used to post ) every frickin day. He was at uni…chumpy me earning already … drove most weekends to see him …. again like most here that the insescent phone calls and letters were because i was so amazing. Even back then i felt mildly creeped out at the constant bombardment and guess what ??most of the letter content was word salad !! I kept them for years and re reading them with clarity it was like wtf does this mean ?? Its gobbeldigook as they say. It is on us mistaking flattery for sincerity but red flags in hindsight are sooo unfair !!
Ah, romantic letters..
My grandad was in his 80s and used to woo phillipino women half his age. I used to have to help him write his bollocks, vomit making letters to them, they read like old black and white films “I love you so much” ” my heart aches till we me again” then he’d eat dinner and watch tv without a second thought.
Interesting view into a cheaters behaviour. Totally not caring what I thought, writing a load of over dramatic crap without any regard. I think he even asked my daughter to help once.
1. Not long before my birthday, had spent a lot of money on himself on Ralph Lauren clothes, then when taking me for a meal (that I had to fight for), told me he only had £20 and made me feel very nervous about ordering anything at all.
2. Used to say things he knew I was sensitive about in front of his 10 year old daughter and tried to get her to gang up on me with him.
3. Would sulk in his room if I spent time with his daughter.
4. When first met, said he wasn’t used to girls smiling when kissing him and said I was very affectionate. Then started to be cold when I was affectionate, but then tell me I wasn’t affectionate enough.
5. Told me he didn’t want any more kids. Knew this was something I really wanted (but like big chump was trying to repress for his sake). Told me he wanted to find girl he wanted kids with when we broke up.
6. Didn’t let me meet his friends. Wouldn’t meet my friends. Would try to make me feel guilty when meeting friends.
7. Wouldn’t let me add him on social media.
8. Would frequently talk about his crazy beautiful exes. Would be visibly pissed off when I pretended I wasn’t the least bit concerned that he had met up with an ex or had been texting one.
9. Frequently was the victim, would occasionally hint that he was to blame but of course he wasn’t really to blame was just being a grown up suggesting that it takes two to tango. Told me I was the ‘best girlfriend’ he’d ever had and that I was helping him ‘heal’. Told me he was victim of domestic violence. Told me friend of one ex he ‘bumped’ into (how did that happen when he never goes out) said she said he used to beat her up. Didn’t show any emotion with that. I was the one outraged by the ‘lies’.
10. Would frequently generically diss people in my profession, would again appear pissed off when I didn’t rise to the jibes.
11. Would say I was invited to meet his family when he knew I wasn’t free.
12. In fact would say he would have taken me to the cinema etc (something he never ever dos) when he knew I had arranged to meet friends. Like the massive chump I was, I put this down to him shy and introverted. But would somehow be able to meet with his friends when I wanted to spend time with him.
13. I never turned him down when he wanted sex. He accused me of never initiating. But actually always refused when I did.
14. Never showed any emotion. Never reacted when I was upset. Was always in ‘control’. Superior. Everyone he works with is ‘stupid’ according to him (he’s an X-ray porter). Only ever saw him get upset if he perceived they were taking the mick out of him. Then would rant for long time.
15. Took drugs. On his own. With daughter in house.
16. Would say awful things about daughters mum in front of her. I explained he should try to not do that for daughters sake. Never attempted to stop.
17. Would shout at/be cold to daughter if she ever insulted him (even with very small things that normal dads would take as a joke).
18. I actually like his colleagues and got on with them (don’t think they’re stupid at all). However, recently (see below) they’re acting strange towards me. Fuck knows what he’s said about me.
19. Broke up with me by text day after I finally snapped and spilled what my gut had been telling me (after I had had bottle of wine of course). Appears to have started another relationship very shortly after.
20. A while ago, was flirting with me by text. Being ongoing chump, I flirted back. He then tells me he’s seeing someone. But the sex with me had ‘more passion, depth’ whatever. I tell him to stop contacting me. Suddenly he’s really happy and lucky with said girl he’s seeing.
21. Again being ongoing chump a little while later, I drunk text saying I miss him, whys he with someone else (massive facepalm). He replied next morning. I apologised said ignore it. He insisted on coming round even when I said not to. Told me he still loves me, kisses me but is seeing a great girl. Leaves. I FINALLY clock that he’s a narcissist (though counsellor did try to says months before). Text him article about narcissism. Reacted very coolly to his replies, have showed no emotion to anything he has said since. Now see ’emotional’ response from him. Finally get it. Finally over him.
Jesus writing this all out has been a bit shocking. There was a lot more but God I was a massive chump. For over two years. And everyone telling me he was a ‘dick’. But of course I loved my ‘misunderstood’ man. Face. Palm.
Forgot to mention, it also started very fast. Wanted to call us a couple very quickly. Was asking me what kind of wedding rings I like after about a month. Kept pushing me to move in with him into his small house but when I said it was too soon, he then stated that we should never live together at all.
For # 11, the word “invited” rings from out like a bell.
My wife would say as she is running out the door numerous times, “You should come, your invited.”
It puzzled me that I would need a invite to go to a public event or place.
oh wow – ewwww…..it took me awhile to figure out her ‘invitation’.
That’s really awful.
Who thinks that way?
I am guessing the “invite” was her way of not having to take responsibility for anything that happened. After all, I was invited, I chose not to go, so it’s not her fault if she fooled around, because if I was there it never would have happened.
Cheaters seem to forget they also have a choice. Unfortunately they all live by the Nike slogan,
“Just do it”
DING DING DING on moving fast — and to their reactions if we challenge them on it
When KK and I started dating, she lived 19 miles away in an apartment by herself (which she should not maintain without occasional help from Dad and Mom, and sometimes Sis). 6 months in, she suddenly realized she needed (and could accept having) a roommate. She found someone in the town I was living in and moved in. I made some vague comment to her about that being evidence of “things moving too fast” and she got so defensive we didn’t speak for a week, and made up with great sex.
About 4 months after that, she had taken a new job with a business writing school and was going through their orientation program. One night we were having dinner at her place, and she’d left out a folder of some of the writing samples she’d been working on. One of them was a formal email sample, announcing that we were getting married and detailing all of the reasons why. I asked “what’s this?” and it resulted ina huge argument — one that, again, lasted about a week and ended with her “just wanting to forget about it” and sex.
It proved to be a familiar pattern over the duration of our marriage, minus the make-up sex.
Fast, I just didn’t get it. We were young so the first meeting when he talked about taking me to a Springsteen concert that was 3 months away, I thought it was odd but oh well.(btw we didn’t go). The first date was valentines and I was thrilled to receive chocolates and a balloon bouquet because now I had something in common with dorm mates who had long term beaus. At 3 weeks he said I love you. I told him it was just too soon, I couldn’t say it. He just said that’s ok. I felt bad so two weeks later I said it.
The push for sex. I was guilted into it.
One difference is there weren’t tons of calls. He used the phone to control. He would call every night between 9-11. It would usually be 9:30 – 10 but every once in awhile it would go to 10:30 or a 11 leaving me wondering. If I questioned this, he would blow it off like I was being controlling. Gas lighting. He didn’t want me calling- he still lived at home in the days before cell phones.
Aw the red flags, aw the sparkle.
The gifts!! Yes, telling signs… He gifted me an ankle length, brown terry cloth robe for Xmas one year. Found out later from my daughter that it was on sale when he bought it…
As far as other telling signs… I actually have a list I called “I should have known when…” That lists all the warning signs. I add to it periodically and use it when I feel weak in my resolve… I won’t post it here, but here are a few:
He refused to tell me anything about previous girlfriends.
He was a taker in everything in our life (sex!!! Ugh, what a sucky sex life I’ve had…)
He wanted to lie on a passport/visa application
I met his family.
Silence became the ONLY coping mechanism I had to maintain my sanity.
He wanted to get rid of our dog 3 months after we got her.
He would make me feel guilty about spending time with girlfriends at a book club.
He didn’t want to wear his wedding ring.
He was insulted and got upset when my sister asked him to take good care of me when we settled in the US, far from my family in France.
He consistently refused to let me be involved in our finances.
He would get what he asked for sexually but kept refusing me the most basic, simplest things
I saw the example of love he was raised with.
He said he preferred brunettes when we first met (I was blond) and that he preferred blondes later (when I was a brunette)
He would always pick where he would sit, at the restaurants, at the movies, on the couch, the dining table, so he could get the best vantage point.
Oh yes – refused to let you get involved with the finances. ?? Same here! Once all my savings had dwindled down to nothing (I was at home raising two kids, so didn’t have an income for many years. He was happy for me to use all my saving up until there was nothing, and then I was at his financial mercy, I see this now), he then took over and wouldn’t let me get involved in finances, saying that I “had enough to do with the kids, than to be bothered worrying about finances”. I thought he was being “thoughtful”. No…he was being controlling!
After much snooping around shortly after D-Day, I discovered a series of receipts from what I would call a “pussy bar” (“karaoke bar” with women behind glass that you choose like puppies at the pound) in which he had paid between $500-$800 per night on “entertainment”. The most shocking one I found was for just over $1000. For ONE NIGHT!! And he use to allocate less than that per month to me for household/living expenses/food/clothing/schooling etc for the kids! He spent more in one night than he gave me in a month! Arghhhh, still makes my blood boil to think about it ?
No, wait…..mustn’t get all fired up. Must remember MEH ??
I have just the opposite experience with finances. After I insisted upon merging our finances because he didn’t pay the gas bill for 5 months, he then became hands off with money. I managed the budget and paid all the bills. Every so often he would complain that he didn’t get enough money, but when I asked him to participate in the budget he would refuse.
Same here Cancer Chump – I managed all our finances the whole time we were together, I would repeatedly ask him to participate in the bill paying and financial decision making. He would NEVER give input/help…..yet he would complain over and over when I told him we did not have money for ‘whatever’ thing that was not budgeted for. It was always ‘my fault’.
Ditto. Although he was running the day-to-day operations of the business, he had nothing to do with the day-to-day financial stuff. Like, still can’t use Internet banking. When he sold ‘our’ profitable business to buy another property that I knew would be far less profitable, I was the negative Nelly who he would get pissed at because I would let him know if we had a bi-monthly taxable loss. I was trying to let him know to keep an eye on the business spending during those periods. But no, apparently it was me saying ‘I told you so’ about the less profitable farm. Ugh.
Schmoopie, an accountant, no less, would be supportive. Yeah, right. If that money-grabbing whore ever saw our books, she would have given up far sooner! She saw dollar signs and told him she ‘just wanted to play tennis and be a lady who lunches’ – even never calculated that I own half. And had dependent children who would require funding.
When he paid her the $10k she extorted at the end of their love affair (because that’s love, right? Oh that’she right, he NEVER said he loved her. Great. So fuck around on me with someone you can barely tolerate. That’s awesome for my ego, too, ya know. I love you so much that I fuck literally ANYONE else) to ‘keep her quiet’ he should have seen he didn’t have deep enough pockets to really shut her up. He did actually. But still didn’t fess up. Left it to her to tell me via text two months after he ended it. Fucktard.
Ditto! Until he got a second job teaching firefighting courses at a local college. Then he joked about having a “secret” account. I thought YES this will stop his complaining and maybe inspire him to take a role in our finances. But NO he still complained that we didn’t have money and then complained if he had to spend HIS. Red flag should have been his odd behaviour with his cell phone and Internet passwords. He couldn’t even go to the washroom without it and it was bizarre that he never had battery left if I wanted to use it to take a picture. Chump for 18 years… chump no more!
LettingGo – same here! He had 2 cell phones and would take both of them to the bathroom/toilet with him, at all times! He said it was “incase he got a business call”. RED FLAG!! I later discovered, from a staff informant that helped me catch him out, that he actually had 4 different cell phone numbers (2 simcards in both, different telcos and numbers, which he could switch to whenever he wanted, depending on who he was calling) – I only knew about the 2 numbers. I had no idea you could have 2 simcards in 1 phone (dualSIM androids). Had no idea he had 4! Makes me wonder how he could be so unorganised in life/business but be super organised with managing 4 numbers and remembering which one to use when, and for who to call from. Bizarre
I finally convinced the shit stain to combine accounts, 9 years into our marriage, and we agreed to discuss all purchases over $100. When it came time to pay credit card bills his always got paid in full & I had just enough to make minimum payments. He’d bought himself a $3000 mountain bike, a $500 leather jacket, we did not discuss. Then he would accuse me of running up credit card debt when my balances never got paid down and I would incur interest.
17 years…..but EVERYTHING else about your letter was my life.
Taught EMT, taught paramedic….worked in the ER on days off…..yet we never had extra $.
He had his own bank account and credit cards and his phone GLUED to him at all times.
Every time I feel shitty about him leaving me for the last AP all I can think now is that it’s her shift to work now.
Kinda makes me smile.
This was me too.
Red flags I missed/misinterpreted in the early years (1-3):
– love bombing me.
– his clinginess to me.
– his not having any of his own friends from high school or university (despite spending 7 years doing an honours degree and Phd).
– only having family as friends.
– extravagant gifts that he really liked for me (that HE got off on getting for me, rather than the pure joy of giving someone something FOR them).
– when he was not with me going to work on weekends – wtf.
Red flags I missed/misinterpreted later on (years 3-6)
– refusing to go to the doctor about erectile dysfunction (couldn’t last very long) and giving me the silent treatment if i brought it up.
– accusing me of attacking him if i wanted to talk about how we could connect more sexually/improve our sex life.
– him being bad with money. I thought him having a PHD would make him good at stuff like that? No. That was party of the personality disordered impulsiveness.
– him being careless with money despite us supposedly saving for a home deposit. See > actions not words exhibit A.
– me managing our budget and ensuring all our bills were paid and him refusing to sit down and look/manage our budget with me unless I FORCED him to do it. wtf.
– him flirting with shmoopie from work in front of me at his 30th birthday and when I challenged him about it, he gaslit me with the classic “we’re just friends!” line from the cheaters manual we chumps unfortunately know so well.
– him needing to ‘blow off steam’ Friday nights and on weekends and coming home at 3am. I don’t drink alcohol and am not into bars/clubs so I stayed home. Chumpy me.
– him wanting to take meth-amphetamines and ecstasy like some kind of crazy teenager.
– him taking his phone into the toilet when he shat.
– him messaging constantly at night.
– his silent treatment of me for months on end, which when I asked him about, he just said ‘he’s tired.
I honestly never imagined or saw the depravity that was coming. The closest I have ever had to considering suicide seriously was after D-Day number 2, after a short period of wreckonciliation and pick-me dancing.
I’m not kidding when I say Chumplady, my family and my psychologist saved my life.
LEAVE A CHEATER. GAIN A LIFE.
I just remembered another one.
I used to ask him, “do you still love me, cheaterpants?” “Are you happy?” To which he would coo back, “of course,” and hug me.
The fact that I felt in my guts the need to routinely ask that question says it all.
Towards the end while he was fucking shmoopie I used to say to him that he was too good for me. That’s how much he had worn me down and devalued me.
I since know that I am valuable and that I have a moral code, which makes me a better human being than he is because I don’t go around destroying people’s souls & using them.
Every parasite needs a host.
I’m glad it’s no longer me.
Never looking back,
So much in your story is like mine
Even the postscript too.
Was yours a covert? Very intelligent?
My cheater was also controlling with the finances. Same story: I worked him through school (with help from his parents as he couldn’t be bothered with a low wage job, while obtaining an education); When we had a child we agreed that I’d quit my work and be a sahm. He gets his statements online, and does online bill pay, so I never saw any bills or credit card statements.
When asked, he’d state that he didn’t want me to be bothered with mundane bill paying.
When I suspected infidelity, I became more demanding about seeing our finances. He flat out refused. The more pressure I put on him, the more hostile he became. Then he left.
He had several accounts, including a stock account which he claimed I had no right to access, as it was his “separate” asset, from before we were married. He also had a checking account that he put money in for my living expenses, during his absence. He never would open it as a joint account so if anyone ever asked to see my id when using his card, they’d decline me. I opened my own private acct and just withdrew the $$ from his acct and put it into mine. I did this for two reasons: I needed my own acct so I could have a secure cc to build my credit (I had none) and also so he couldn’t pour over his statements, going over every purchase, interrogating me on spenditures he didn’t approve of.
At first, we agreed on $1200/mo for living expenses for my child and me. (and being pregnant at the time, maternity expenses as well) but soon it became $1000/mo then $900/mo.
He paid the mortgage, and so he felt that even $900/mo was too much. He thought I should be able to maintain our home with as little as $600/mo.
As it was, I couldn’t afford to save, I couldn’t travel anywhere, I couldn’t treat myself or my child to anything. We had just enough to get by.
Meanwhile, cheater was wining and dining his slutress, and planning expensive getaways.
I am convinced that someone with a conscience could never put their family through that hell.
FedupChump, I feel you. I really do. Reading your post felt eerily familiar to my experience. We never had a joint account either. Once all my savings had gone (he was happy to let me use up all of it while I was a sahm) and I was at his financial mercy, he would just deposit a monthly living allowance into my bank account for all the household expenses/food/water/gas/kids etc. it was never enough and I would have to ask for more before the month was up. He would get shitty and accuse me of wasting it.
Whenever I got uppity and demanded to see his bank account, he would shut me down by getting so angry, he would throw things around the house and break things in a rage. Like our son’s stroller, and my laptop charger, and even once ripped a wardrobe door off it’s hinges! F**ing psycho! With two little kids at home, I didn’t want to stir the beast. So, over time I stopped asking about his finances. I was clueless even to how much he earned, he would never tell me.
Like I said above, during my snooping phase (and I was super lucky, because a disgruntled staff member of his was helping me out), I discovered receipts from the “pussy bar” he used to frequent (when he claimed he was at late night work meetings) in the range of between $500-$1000 a pop, and receipts from 5-star hotel restaurants for ridiculous amounts (eg; late night burgers at a swanky hotel, costing about $40 each, when you can get a $3 burger at BK), and expensive perfume purchases which were not for me. Meanwhile, the bastard had me on a tight budget, allocating LESS per month to the kids and I than he would spend in ONE night at the pussy bar. It seriously blew my mind. I don’t know what kind of person can do this and live with themselves.
Well, now he DOES live with himself, all alone! Leaving him at the airport was the best decision I could have made in that situation. Whenever he complains that he misses the kids, I just keep reminding myself of the shitty things he did – like when he didn’t care about them the time they had a particularly bad virus, and I was at the hospital alone with them (we were living in a foreign country, away from family), then back home I was up all night caring for two vomiting kids while he was “at work” (the pussy bar). Yeah, don’t tell me you miss your kids. You were too busy to spend time with them or care for them when we were together with you in that country. Cry me a river, Asshole. I don’t care anymore about your feelings. Suffer in your jocks alone, fool.
” I was at his financial mercy, he would just deposit a monthly living allowance into my bank account for all the household expenses/food/water/gas/kids etc. it was never enough and I would have to ask for more before the month was up. He would get shitty and accuse me of wasting it.”
This. Exactly. He made me beg for money every month, then tick through all the “non essential” items I was wasting$$ on. It was so incredibly dehumanizing. I feel your rage and I apologize if I hit a trigger. It’s a trigger for me that makes me shake with anger.
If I found receipts for $1k spent on hookers, I’m not sure I’d be typing this right now. I might have just lost my mind and control. You’re strong for getting the eff out. I love your story. I can’t imagine how difficult it was for you, but getting on that plane must have been exhilarating.
FedupChump thank you for your reply, and you don’t have to apologise at all! No trigger hit here, I’m fine. I just wanted to share and let you know that you’re not alone.
The kids and I left last year, in May. So it’s been just over a year since I left him at the airport (haha, I love saying that, “left him at the airport”, because that’s exactly what I did) and life is much better for the kids and I. I’m just about done with my second degree, so next year I hope to be on a good income and getting back on my feet.
I still can’t believe that he did that to me, all the financial abuse. What kind of person does that? Especially when there are little kids involved. I don’t know how he could easily spend $1k on a night out at a hooker bar when he had a wife and 2 kids under 6 at home – and wouldn’t even allocate that amount for living expenses for a whole month for them?! It still boggles my mind, honestly. I took photos of all the receipts and carefully put them back in his briefcase during my snooping phase. He actually still has NO IDEA that I know about all the money he spent. There’s a lot of things he doesn’t know that I know mwahahahaha ? But I like to keep it that way. All he knows is that I left because I found out about him cheating (which I didn’t tell him I knew about until I was on home soil, and had lawyered up). Even now, he still doesn’t know that I know about the secret phone numbers, extra bank accounts, the fact that his staff member actually SHOWED me the bar he would frequent, and took me to the exact address where his mistress lived. Bahahaha, he knows nothing! And after years of being kept in the dark, it feels good to turn the tables. That’s not very MEH of me, I know. But…its nice to have the upper hand for once.
How hideously scary and isolating for you, Left him. And how bloody infuriating to think you were struggling to look after your sick kids when he was off with sex workers.
How they cope with sickness in others is another sign to watch for – including how they behave when ill. Mine had zero sympathy (unless it was OW – my first clue to the affair that I ignored), and when he had a cold wanted to be waited on hand and foot.
Yet when I clearly had viral meningitis after a week of gastro through the family, and was debating going to hospital on a sunday morning, my (doctor) ex said “well it’s not bacterial so there’s not much they will do, I’ve got to go to work” and left me all day with 2 small kids. I cannot believe I tolerated that and was left partially deaf in one ear, which is a good reminder of what happens when you neglect your health!
“And don’t you know it’s dinner time? What the hell is wrong with you that you don’t know to get up to make dinner? After lying there all day doing nothing while I work? What a lazy ass you are!”
It’s called abuse. But hey, if the narc is sick, you’d better take the day off to tend to them.
Oh my goodness, Vastra!! I’m so sorry he did that to you! You are now partially deaf in one ear? ? That’s terrible, he’s an f**ing asswipe for not caring for you when you were so ill. I hope this douche is now far far away from you.
I can’t say I’m not surprised though, because YES mine was the same. He would get sick and throw himself into a hole like a victim, and expect to be coddled. When I got sick? No help from him. In fact, I recall one particularly bad night when my sister had come to visit us, and I was having bad stomach cramps. It was so bad, and I thought something was seriously wrong with me, like maybe appendicitis? he came home at 11pm and I asked him to take me to hospital while my sister minded the kids. He wouldn’t take me, just told me to go to bed. He was “too tired to take the car out again”. I ended up taking a taxi at 1am when the pain got too much. Yes, a TAXI!! And don’t forget, we were living in a foreign country that has a lot of crime and bad medical services. I got so uppity, I picked the most expensive hospital and got the taxi driver to take me there. The taxi driver was even more concerned for me than my own husband!! Spent a few hours in the hospital having tests and antacid medication, then got a taxi back home. Yep, luckily I know how to look after myself! My sister hated him from that moment on. Should’ve left him then and there. I didn’t find out about the cheating until 3months later.
Side note:
Love your name ‘Left him at the airport,’ did you really leave him there? If so, I really want to hear this story. I thought my surprise exit on my X’s away fuck-weekend was good, but yours sounds amazing. You’re my hero.
Hahaha hi Red, yes I really did leave him at the airport!! Funniest thing I’ve ever done. Maybe I should write to Tracy one day and she can put my story up as a post? It was a crazy, messed up time. When I look back now, I don’t know how I did it!?! I was desperate to get out. And the anger fuelled me. A woman scorned, and all that. I was on fire ?
Late to this post, but I second that request to read your story, LHATA!!
Haha, now I want to know about YOUR surprise exit! Hahaha, love that you did that.
Same here! (about Redstarrising’s exit!). And Lefthim, even though I’ve read your story before, I love when you tell it! Give us a clue where we can find it? (in comments to what post(s)?)
Mine did the same. He was happy to force me to pay almost half the bills while I was unemployed and on unpaid maternity leave. I guess he needed me to bankroll his horrific spending habits, thousands on clothes and hookers every year. Now that I have thrown him out, I have nothing left. After the separation hearing, he moved to another continent and left me with tons of bills. And when I asked him to leave some cash so I can get food for our son over the next few weeks, his response was “pick vegetables from the garden “.
Mine was the opposite, I was always having to check that he had enough money to pay the bills. I would say I was worried about money and being able to afford the bills. He used to go over his overdraft every month on our joint account and we would get charged fees and get letters to say we had gone overdrawn. He would tell me not to worry and that he would sort it. I thought he was just trying to take care of me and his family and stop me worrying.Little did I know he was spending thousands on gambling on credit cards and getting out pay day loans. I will never date anyone who gambles ever again.
Oh yes the old…dont you worry about the finances..you just concentrate on the kids and the house….duh ok ….fast forward 2 years …it was his exit strategy to remortgage the house to the max to pay for what he wanted and leave me and the kids with exactly $200 and then shortly after homeless.
I love your name, I keep saying that to myself at the moment. When I am going over all the stuff he said and did to me I’m like who does that. I don’t think we will ever get an answer to that question no matter how hard we try.
Ya know who does that kind of stuff?
Sociopaths do.
But we didn’t know how normal sociopaths can make themselves look, in the beginning.
I’ve told this story on here before, but it makes me either smile ruefully, or smdh, to this very day.
Our second Christmas and my birthday that same week came at a time that we were separated, and trying, supposedly, to work things out. The previous year, we had exchanged simple but meaningful gifts, not elaborate because we were poor students expecting a baby, but, very sweet gifts. I care way more about the meaning of a gift than its intrinsic value, and I was anxious to see what he had chosen for me in this mutual endeavor to make our relationship work.
So, he joined my parents, siblings, and me for my birthday dinner and cake. It came time for me to open my gift from him…and it was this set of kitschy wall plaques, depicting old fashioned children fishing and what not. Something you’d give a distant aunt or cousin in the family gift exchange. In the car later, I saw evidence that he’d stopped at the K-Mart on his way to the house, bought that thing, and wrapped it in the car. I always try to accept gifts graciously, and I remember hoping that he couldn’t see the disappointment on my face.
Months later, my best friend and I got rip roaring drunk one night, and practiced throwing darts at those stupid plaques, which I’d never taken out of the box.
Mine once (before gifts stopped altogether a few years into marriage) bought some clothes off the clearance rack at K-Mart several sizes too big, left the tags on, stapled the K-mart bag shut, and threw it under the tree. Raged about how I was a materialistic bitch when I couldn’t keep the disappointment off my face X-mas morning (mind you, I didn’t say anything, I just didn’t have a good enough poker face).
Omg! This!
“Raged about how I was a materialistic bitch when I couldn’t keep the disappointment off my face X-mas morning (mind you, I didn’t say anything, I just didn’t have a good enough poker face).”
This happened to me dozens of times in 25 years. Then when his latest affair was discovered and the mask was ripped off, he said he HAD to fuck AP because I could “never” be satisfied.
MOAS – i absolutely LOVE that you had a game of darts with those wall plaques LOL! What FUN! ?
I literally had to pick out my own gifts.
Early in the relationship I thought he just didn’t want to screw things up and he just really wanted me to like what I received. But no…he’s just a sociopath. It’s extra sad because his ex-wife knew he was like this (through 4 years of her own disappointment) and she actually was out Christmas shopping, saw something she knew I would like, and told him he should buy it for me but he didn’t. He’s really sad and sick.
Ah Yes! He wouldn’t wear his wedding ring!
Mine told me he found rings uncomfortable.
I guess it would have been pretty uncomfortable trying to bed other women with a wedding band on your finger!
Mine prepped me beforehand and told me he never wore jewelry and not to bother getting him a ring. When he deployed a few months later I picked up a ring and told him he could put it on his tags that he had to wear anyway. I meant it as a sweet gesture to remind him I loved him and was worried about him when he was gone. I was met with a cold stare and an “Against regulations.” He left it behind on his dresser when he left. One can’t bang every young female on the FOB plus random government contract workers and the occasional hooker with wedding ring on.
LOL!! My STBX won’t take his wedding ring OFF now that I filed (though I saw it off many a time during our marriage: “it interferes with scrubbing for surgery,” among other bullshit). My theory: the ring presently functions as a shill; it’s there to remind the 2 hookers and several casual OW friends I’ve discovered though his emails that “I’m married to a “beautiful wife”, so you guys better be bringing your A-game!” (I just found an email from an OW overseas that he fucks whenever she’s in the country; apparently he told her he’s losing his “beautiful wife”, and “boo hoo”!!) Ha! This asshole never once in 25 years gave me a compliment like that to my face!! I wonder if yours wears his all the time now that you’ve left!
In a similar vein, mine kept mementos from past relationships. A painting that an ex had given him with an exchange of their love notes behind it (I finally snooped a bit 2 years into our relationship and found that bit, which he deftly explained away), a gourd a different ex had bought for him in Argentina, and other little things that I never would have guessed were imbued with special “ex-lover” juju. I’m realizing now that certain other things that showed up were likely gifts from his affair partner.
Of course, he has now kept everything I ever gave him in a weird memento-like way. I was in our house alone about 3 months after I moved out to collect the rest of my things. I found love notes I wrote to him at the beginning of our relationship in his bedside table. He had left my closet and my drawers in our dresser completely empty and untouched, down to a sock I had left by accident. I was unfortunately at the house where we used to live together to pick up our daughter last week, and she needed a diaper change so I went up to her bedroom. I had decorated her whole nursery and he hasn’t changed a thing, down to the air plants (now long dead) that I hung in terrariums from her ceiling. Could be just laziness but he is a neat/clean/control freak so I think it is sort of odd that he is suffering dead plants in his house.
Like you Chickynot, I think that these things are kind of a subtle reminder to whoever he is with to work harder. As in, “look, I’ve had deep loving relationships with women who touched my soul before, so much that I’ve kept these special things they gave me, what are you going to do to compete with that?”
And the weird baby’s room shrine to me just plays into his poor “pity me” narrative, just a poor misunderstood guy who couldn’t keep the mother of his child around because of his nebulous emotional issues. You know, it just takes the right woman to sort a man like that out… [insert massive eye roll here]
Wow Rockette, I never even thought about the house stuff. Neither of has moved out yet (and not like I plan to go anywhere). He hasn’t “officially” owned up to having his sugar baby GF, so hasn’t moved. But I know from his emails that he’s invited her to come stay at the house while I’m on a camping vacation with girlfriends a few weeks from now (eww will I ever be washing those sheets!). I’ve been kinda wondering if he plans to cover over all the family pictures all over the walls (lots of which he put up years ago). But now I realize he’s probably just gonna use those to control her! (I had first thought he invited her to secretly spite me, but now I think it’s both).
Mine wouldn’t wear his either. He said it made other women know that having an affair with him would be too easy because he’d only be available only for sex and not commitment.
I swear to God, I’m not a moron, but I fell for that. Stupid!
My Lovely Narc Beast wore his ring the first year of our marriage. His personality flipped after that and he started rejecting me and my family. He’d leave with his ring on and come home with it off. I asked him one day where his ring was. He told me he left it on the bench in the locker room. I said can you call down there and ask them to put it in the office what if the cleaning crew takes it. He said it’s a worthless ring no value and it will be there tomorrow. I said ok it’s $200 but it’s the one I put on your finger. After that the excuse became he hates how it feels on his hand. No he’s just a cheating scumbag that couldn’t keep his story believable at work that I’m insane and he’s miserable and about to divorce me. Well I discovered his affair with a woman that works in his building. I think it’s hard to text your whore 4000 times a month with that wedding band obstructing your full range of motion. ? I was his ATM sandwich making cover story chumphole. After I had him served I told him im done taking his lies abuse and cheating. He said “you wanted a loyal husband that wore his wedding band and I wanted a sexy wife… neither one of us got what we wanted. Had you been my sexy whore I would have worn my ring to make you happy.” Funny because I did everything he requested trying to keep the beast from yelling at me. Everything. He texted and called me hundreds of times a day and still needed other women to stroke his ego and thrill him. Thank God I got the strength to file there’s no fixing this kind of man. I think i married a monster with human skin.
Mine ALWAYS wore his. Didn’t keep him from being with other women though. When I said as much to him, he told me “this conversation is over.”
Mine wouldn’t wear his either! He had three all together that I bought for him during our 23 year marriage, that he found uncomfortable, afraid he’d lose them, etc. Meanwhile, I still have the dent in my finger from not taking mine off until my one and only D-day hit. He also kept his pay stubs at his numerous work desks over the years, never bringing them home. His pay would be direct deposited, so I never saw the deductions, and I was so busy working and paying bills I stopped pushing him to show me. Next week he is marrying his best friends significant other, I wonder how she’ll feel when she finds out about his child support payments? I’ve never been so glad to have the chance to start over in my life…
The not wearing the wedding ring is a huge red flag, as is the alpha male syndrome. When X and I married, after being together a long time (a whole other story), we were both respected professionals, but early in our careers. He didn’t want me to take his last name, and I thought it was because he respected me so much. He also never, ever wanted to wear a wedding ring, so much so that I didn’t even give him one during our five minute notary signing ceremony (another huge red flag).
In reality, he didn’t want anyone to think we were married for over 25 years! While he played the loving husband and father at home, in public, it appeared to many people that we were more like professional associates. At the time, it all seemed to make sense. I wanted to be a respected professional. What I failed to recognize was that he actually was compartmentalizing me, something narcissists do very well. When we divorced, some people saw it another corporation being sold. Probably to him, it was.
From the very beginning, he also was an awful gift giver, until I begin to buy my own, expensive, gifts and made sure he got the bill. Then, for years, he just had a jeweler choose the jewelry for him; I doubt he even knew what was in the package before I opened it. Of course, as soon as my daughters were old enough, he passed that responsibility off to them. They loved it, and were always so excited to see my reaction when I opened what they had chosen for me! And, of course, it made him look like the hero, with zero effort on his part. It is the only jewelry I have kept; the rest of it had no significance to me at all. So even in gift giving, there was no effort from him, no thought about what I would enjoy.
Two things also stand out about my final decision to leave and really illustrate how little narcissists think about their spouses. The first was when I simply asked him to name my favorite movie, after 30 years together. I certainly knew his favorite. I had it dozens of times, if not more, not because I liked the movie, but because I loved him. He looked at me as if I had two heads; he did not have a clue what kind of movie I might enjoy. See, what I loved just didn’t matter to him.
The second goes back to the wedding ring. During our relatively brief wreckonciliation, I bought him a small gold band and insisted that he wear it. After two weeks, he took it off, claiming that it “bothered” him too much, and that he hated to wear ” jewelry.” It was a small symbolic gesture to me, but one that he was incapable of making. If there is one thing that says cheater, it is the refusal to wear a ring!
Seriously, those two things confirmed for me that he did not give a shit about me, and never had. It is the small things, it really is.
Eh . . . I don’t know if I’d make too big a deal of the lack of wearing a wedding ring. My X was banging the OW all the time with his on. It never stopped him from trolling for strange.
My husband now takes his off when he gets home and wears it whenever he leaves the house. (He’s always afraid of dinging it up working around the house.)
Violet — I wonder if you are my STBX’s college buddy’s wife!! (I know you’re not married to mine; wrong industry, but same gifting strategy, for sure!)
Oh man! Your post reminds me of my XH’s compartmentalizing!
At home (by year two of 10 years together, 1 year married) he often barely tolerated me. I always was asking if I did something wrong or if he was mad. His response (even when obviously angry) was, “you have never seen me mad”. I know now that I was living with an abusive overly aggressive box of rage, but I digress.
In front of his family or people he wanted to impress I was his beautiful wife who did this and accomplished-overly bragging to the point where I felt I needed to downplay his praise.He was also very touchy and affectionate in these situations.
Around work buddies I was the ball and chain.
Around couple friends he was the victim. “Let me ask my boss” (whenever someone asked him a question that he wanted to “consult” me on.) OR” I am just around to make all the money-I don’t actually get to enjoy anything because I am always working.” (Both total bullshit)
Around my friends and family…oh that’s right, he never wanted to be around my friends and family.
“I know now that I was living with an abusive overly aggressive box of rage, but I digress.”
THIS THIS THIS >>>
This was my EXACT EXPERIENCE too. I could feel that he was angry with me, that things weren’t good, but the multiple times I brought it up (“are you happy?” “do you still love me?” why haven’t you asked me to marry you yet?” “why aren’t we married yet?”) he would insist that “of course” he was happy and still loved me and “I already consider us married – what more do you want?”
I always thought he was a kind, soft “nice guy” – that’s the image he worked SO HARD to maintain.
But when the mask fell he was exactly as you described.
The most vengeful, rage-filled, aggro, repressed maniac I have ever come across.
Neja and neverlookingback, same personality as you both describe, always acting as if he could barely tolerate me and when I’d ask if he was angry he’d reply in an angry tone that, no he wasn’t, then he’d raise his voice and ask if I was looking for something to bitch about? then go into a lecture on how I was never happy.
I’d ask if he loved me, he’d answer with, I’m here aren’t I?
His public image was so much different, friendly, out going, life of the party, “Mr. Nice Guy.” Appeared so open minded and understanding, went out of his way to pull chairs out for people to sit down or find them a chair, offer to get them something to drink. I actually had other wives tell me how lucky I was to be married to someone so nice and so funny. If he was actually that way behind closed doors I would be lucky but he was nothing like that when he didn’t have an audience. He never brought me a drink the entire time we were married, or pull out chair for me.
Behind closed doors he was abusive, spiteful, sarcastic and cruel.
Brit & Neja, if we went to the cinema, my ex-fucker used to wait until every single other person had got up and went down the aisle before he started to leave. “After you, after you…” he would say to them all, gesturing wildly. He couldn’t possibly join the queue and make his way in an orderly fashion with the rest of the crowd. No, he was special, he was NICE. “After you, pleeeease.”
Then that fucker hits me with that infidelity shit. The lies he was telling friends about how much of a tyrant I was, withholding money… There was NOTHING nice about him.
They are two-faced ghouls.
Never — the movie thing? He doesn’t want to be seen walking out with you. Might spoil it in case an OW or two is in the crowd.
NeverLookingBack, no matter where we were X would go out of his way for others, almost tripping himself in public places sprinting so he could hold the door open for strangers. He’d make a special effort if it were an elderly person particularly a women. He’d make these exaggerated faces and body movements to draw attention to himself or say something he thought was humorous or amusing when in actuality it was dumb. Most people would smile or fake laugh, to be polite. I’d feel embarrassed for him. Afterwards I could see him look around to see if other people noticed how nice he is.
This same “nice” person would walk past me in the hallway at home and stand so I couldn’t get past him, then without looking at me, say MOVE! He wouldn’t budge or say excuse me. He’d never reveal this side of himself in public.
Funny how we are labeled different things depending on the audience,
ball and chain, to some people he worked with, the psycho bitch to others, the boss in front of certain friends or strangers, he’d act like the wounded abused animal around his family, the loving considerate husband in front of my family.
I can only imagine how he described me to his AP and who ever else he encountered.
No, there’s nothing nice about them. He had me convinced that he was a man of integrity, he drilled it into to my head almost daily with his long lectures on what a great guy he is.
Yes, they’re two-faced, and vile creatures.
CN and CL saved my sanity.
Brit same here. I hate the labels and names. I was called a backpack, miserable wife, mentally insane, ungrateful, immature baby. He would bitch that he had to babysit me when we went out because i didnt know how to get men away from me. Yeah I do if I was able to get one sentence out before Ball-o-Rage came storming over screaming an inch away from anyone who looked at me or spoke to me. After a while i looked down at the floor so i wasnt the cause of any innocent men getting hurt. To his family he referred to me as “She” and not my name. I suspected that it was going on behind my back too… and still knocked the wind out of me when I read the messages between him and the whores.
But that public image! Just like you said Brit it’s like 2 completely different people and I find it horrifying.
This …every word brit. I found out later he constructed a characature of me for each of his life circumstances : work buddies like you say brit i was the ball and chain and “kept him under the thumb ” (apparently people used to make the thumb forehead sign in reference to me ) : for old friends he was the victim : for his family i controlled everything : for my family he was the perfect gushing son in law. Makes me physically sick to think he played me like i had no feelings.
Same. I figured it out after he kept calling me from work speaking loud in an over enunciated slow way… “Umm hi babe (fake nervous voice) is it OK if I can please go out for a drink with my work friends. I promise I won’t be gone long. It’s only guys no girls”. all this was said like I was asking him questions and controlling him but I wasn’t even talking. This is so fake that it actually scared me. This is the guy that got drunk and didn’t come home or call. That went on guy trips every other weekend. if i took a nap on sunday id wake up and find out he went to the bar no note just left. it’s fake as shit and remembering this now is making me want to barf.
Red Flag…. Wedding Ring. She had lost weight and said her ring keep falling off and it got in the way of her Yoga….. A RED FLAG indeed!
I wish I had followed up more on that excuse….took me two more years to figure it out (now 6 year out)!
What a CHUMP I was!
I can top the license plate cover. The Christmas right before D-Day, I got kitchen shears. Should have put them to good use a few months later when I found out what he had been up to.
Disparaging comments about what I liked – music, books, movies, things to do. Always noncommittal about doing something as a family unless it was his idea. I rarely got to meet with my friends as he had to go out “networking” (this was basically getting wasted with his friends). As it was “networking”, spouses couldn’t come, which was good as babysitters cost a lot of money. Not sure why this sounded logical at the time. lol Asking him for date nights, not only did I get the babysitter excuse but also the explanation that he didn’t see the point as we were already married.
A lot more coming to mind – I think I’m going to stay with cats from now on LOL
Camo lingerie-
Lol, seriously? I didn’t even know that existed!
Camo lingerie??? Oh WOW.
I got large Army sweatpants AND a sniper book when I was pregnant with our 2nd child. Husband was then an Army medical resident, & I was in the Army JAG Corps, which I joined for him. I’m a lawyer, not a sniper, and mostly they are not the same.
Worse, I saw these ludicrous presents as endearing b/c he was working SO HARD that he really didn’t have time to shop anywhere other than hospital gift store. Years later my engagement ring was stolen. Our insurance covered it, but when he went to replace it, he called me in irritation and I recall feeling somehow responsible and guilty.
Then he bought a ring and stone in the shape I specifically said not to get (“anything other than X”) and it had worn letters in it. OMG I must have blocked this out b/c I never confronted this before now.
Back when he was in med school and internship and residency, I told myself that someday all this work (and time away from our kids and massive personal neglect) would pay off.
THEN we’d have TIME together and THEN we’d have money! Except after 35 years, I got sick and he left me for Alaska and the “Christian” adulteress who lives there. No contact with our 3 kids, either. Because they’re ungrateful…
I’m an intelligent educated woman and yet, here I am. Still spinning. WTF?
Giving a sniper book to a pregnant woman as a gift? Was the dude suicidal? Or did his “shooting partner” reject it? That boggles my mind.
Especially since he knew you were a lawyer.
Know what you mean about hoping all the years of hard slog and supporting their long hours, on-call, study etc for medical training will pay off (I was also doing the same, just less prestigious specialty with saner hours). He had no intention of staying with me, I was another first wife who supported him in the early years and got dumped for younger more submissive OW. Having said, that, I would never want that back, a big house / fancy holidays / comfortable retirement is meaningless if you are married to a toxic cheater narc surgeon.
Vastra, I hear you. When I met the Fucktard, he’d just gotten his Ph.D. and passed his licensing exam in Clinical Psychology. He earned less that $17k a year. I was finishing my B.A. and applying to Law School and working full time. I supported him while he built his practice and took shitty clinic jobs and was there when he had the good fortune to stab a former mentor in the back and take over his research job at a major university, and when he went on to a minor professorship, and clawed his way up that ladder to Chair of his Division at another major university. He did both at once, and had many more hours a day to enjoy himself than I did. When I graduated from Law School, he said he hated lawyers. He invited his entire family but never planned lunch and said it was my fault they had nothing to eat because I hadn’t bothered to care about them. He invited four family members to stay with us during the Bar Exam. I shut that down, so I was selfish. The torpedoes just kept coming when my career was going well. If I had to work hard it was because I was too stupid to choose an easier profession, or because I was having an affair. Projection much?
I too was the supportive first wife. The anticipated but never accepted backup plan when the student promised my house and function did not satisfy a person who called himself “Doctor” every day, just for the wow factor he felt from that.
But time marches on. My life is better since that shit is gone. I found a dream job over 15 years ago and I won’t look back. So what if I designed a nice home that was used by a shithead as a lure? I have a better home and life now. Yes, those trappings are meaningless.
In my head I believe you Survivor. I get it, in my head. But yet I’m still trying to find meaning in this. My resume has gaping holes and his is pristine. I’m starting over and I’m 57. And, I kid you not, HE is furious with ME. QUIT his AMAZING job to avoid paying me spousal support.
Like I have wronged him. Somehow he’s the hero and I’m the villain – and that makes me screw my head in the ceiling. I’m not near meh yet. I want to be, but is there meaning in this??
Mine had a Phd and went on to work in drug/alcohol research. When he was in a senior research, he began fucking one of his Phd students from his office.
I had two degrees, and was completing my third – however somehow none of that mattered against his precious Phd and his career.
Apparently my studying all the time made our life together “boring” which is why he started fucking his student at work. See, it was all my ‘fault’ – I sucked. He was perfect! How dare I not live up to his standards. It was, after all, my job to make him happy!
But all those years HE studied? That wasn’t boring. No, not at all – that was his future!
WTF the hypocrisy of it all. Fuckers, the lot of them.
Pilot’s first wife here, Air Force, long period of time away from home. Left the service, unemployed, helped him study and fill out his resume, choose clothing for interviews, he got hired by major airline, less than a year later he’s furloughed by major airline, he joined the military reserves to maintain and build flying hours while I was finishing up my teaching credentials. His reserve job was in another state and he didn’t want to be alone or commute. He convinced me to leave school, not to worry the sacrifice would pay off someday. Two years later I begged him to apply to another airline since it had been over two years since being furloughed. He didn’t want to, but he finally applied, he got hired, finally medical and dental benefits for us and our child, better pay and benefits than the other airline. He was based in another state, so another major move. An airline pilot doesn’t earn much money in the early years.
He makes Captain, and finally living comfortably that’s when he decides he wants something different. Then took a step down with the airline so his spousal support would be less. Now he’s on “disability”. He’s relentless with playing games with support. I hate him. He acts as if I deserve to be punished, for what? supporting him? following him around the country so he wouldn’t need to commute or be alone. I sacrificed my career, he insisted I be a stay at home Mom and wife. While he traveled all over the world I was home living in some dump in the middle of now where with a toddler, not knowing anyone. This isn’t the life I was promised or looked forward to. I don’t know how he can live with himself, he has no remorse, guilt or empathy. Clearly a sociopath.
Same sad story – Dr. Gagg had me working and taking care of our babies while he went to vet school….and then did an internship….. and then a residency, at a university veterinary teaching hospital no less (narc has to teach and shine and sparkle in front of students instead of getting a decent paying job in private practice) so the dreams I had of one day leaving teaching to be a stay-at-home mom were never to come to fruition. But hey, we were in it together, right? Struggling to pay of 250K of loans he took out while in school, saving what we could for retirement….. Until Horse Face C@nt sashayed into the picture and Dr. Gagg couldn’t be man enough to stay faithful to his wife and children. Now he wants to give me $400/month for child support or he’ll just *have* to put that $250K down as marital debt and have me help pay it off, and then is furious with me for retaining a lawyer.
I get it. I know meh is somewhere on the horizon, but it’s not in my sights yet. I still cry over what I lost (which was an illusion) and the life I planned and dreamed I’d have with him. All lies.
Oh, forgot to mention: yes, Horse Face C&nt was also a student where he teaches, 18 years younger than him. He’s a disgusting cliche.
X would refer to the sacrifices made as us working towards “our” career.
“Our career” has left me living without medical or dental benefits. It’s been over 20 years since I graduated from college. X and his attorney made a request to the judge that I meet with a career counselor for an evaluation. $2000.00 for testing and an interview with the career counselor in his opinion, the only job that I have a chance of getting is at the Hilton, or Marriott hotel, early in the morning, serving coffee to businessmen from a coffee cart.
Excuse my language but wtf??
“I’m a lawyer, not a sniper, and mostly they are not the same.”
OMG, Doctor’s 1st Wife/3 kids, that is TOO funny!!
Gift Giving – BIG RED FLAG!!!!
A $20 Christmas decoration from a truck store with the tag still on it ( was driving in the US until the 24th – so I felt sorry for him – duh.
No presents for anyone at holiday gift giving time – but he went out and bought himself a shiny new toy?!?!
Others that I can now look back on
1. Refusing to kiss me because he didn’t get something his way -ONCE.
Didn’t kiss me for the next 12 years of our marriage. Grudge much?
2. Letting me drive an unsafe vehicle to taxi kids around in ( no breaks – used the clutch to stop sometimes ) while he always had a very nice truck.
3. Had to be the centre of attention – always. Need for the spotlight.
4. Hated people. If he did not see eye to eye with somebody ( maybe they saw the real him ) he wouldn’t be able to just shrug it off. Nooo – not him.
He HATED them and would make them miserable if he could do it. Turn others against that person etc
5. Commenting on their people’s appearances -always.
So and so isn’t looking as good as she used to – put on weight. Oh – she’s pretty but too heavy in the legs. He lost his looks …. And on and on.
My point is that they are about as deep as a puddle.
6. Just a friend. Sorry – going out for dinner, or any other event with another woman from work, school or the gym is a date. Period.
7. Being compared to any other woman is a big red flag.
Or they are still fixated on one that “got away”. Run fast!!
8. Lonely guy. He needs you ( or anyone with a pulse and a vajajay ). He’s lonely for a reason !!!
I could go on – but my coffee is cold
Is there a cheater handbook with a camo lingerie chapter???
He kept talking about it – “let’s go to Bass Pro Shop and get you some camo lingerie.” It was usually said in jest, but maybe semi-serious…?
He never bought it for me. Too cheap. RARELY bought me gifts, as per the cheater MO.
So I finally bought myself a camo sports bra to be funny.
I’ve gotten that.
And it didn’t fit.
I got red and black but also so small I’m not sure who could fit it. Made an effort once.
He came last night to get more things from the house. I started piling things in the spare room that I didn’t want and that piece was in it. He told me I could bin it and I said it was his to deal with.
If I got that from my STBX, it would have been a re-gift that didn’t fit Sugarbaby.
1141,
Good to hear he finally got his dirty laundry out of your house.
Let somebody else do it for him.
Soon he’ll be at the laundromat doing it himself!
( he’ll need to add more bleach ) !
?
Haha yes peacekeeper the laundry pile is gone!
It was an emotional night and next day. Always a step back when we have to have contact. But slowly and surely we’ll get to a dissolution and the amplitude of the waves gets smaller bit by bit.
Nearly every Xmas for the past five years: Golden toe socks. The kind old men wear.
Easier to care for than bare root roses, but I get your point. Nothing says true love like a pair of generic geriatric socks.
How about a starter mushroom growing kit in a box? Nothing says love or romance like growing your own mushrooms right?
Other red flags:
-Not wearing wedding rings (bought 3 and then stopped).
-No friends in 36 years.
-Over the top “Nice Guy” for attractive younger women. Flirting with them in front of me. At social gatherings he would seek out females; the more outward attractive, the more interested he was. If I questioned his behavior I was jealous, insecure or crazy.
-Years and thousands of dollars invested in his next “get rich quick”
idea. Promises that it would all be worth it. Broken promises and the easy street future never materialized.
-Long hours and weekend work were for our future and I had to trust him.
This is the short list. Ugh! Soooooo….happy to be rid of him!!!
Too funny. One of the many very strange things cheater boy did while deeply involved with the most recent of the sluts was, inexplicably, send me a pic of camo lingerie one day while he was shopping in the little town in which they “worked.” I now get that what he would do was wait for her to leave for the office, then have his moment of contact with me, though that dwindled to almost nothing eventually. But the camo undies pic came very late in the game, and I still have no idea WTAF was up with that. Would not shock me if he bought them for her, but who knows? The layers of his disorder can not be overestimated.
He also purchased, for their home, a certain antique I had been hunting down for ages, and in which he had and has zero interest. Did not discover that until I found it on the list of items they were willing to sell. Nice. And strange. They are strange people.
Is it a weird disordered thing? To get things for their APs that their spouses have longed for?
I had always wanted to have a holiday at the Timberline lodge. The Shining was filmed there, (parts of it, anyway) and my grandmother and I would talk about going there together. Alas she died before we could actualize our dream.
My husband would go snowboarding at Mt. Hood once a year, and we talked about making the trip together.
It never happened.
I did discover, going through his emails, just one month post D-Day, that he did make reservations at the Timberline for the following March. When I asked him about it (hoping he’d at least lie and say it was a surprise for me, even though I knew better) he said the reservation was for when his friend and him went snowboarding in the spring. I threatened to call said friend, and he then exclaimed “He doesn’t know yet!”
So he made a $1200 reservation for a three night stay in a room with one queen size bed?
They went up the hill every spring that’s true, but I knew our friend would never split a bill like that only to share a queen size bed.
I lied and said I saw the email attached to the reservation. He just gave me a blank stare (you know the one) and asked me how much I saw. I said everything. He didn’t say a word. He packed his things but before leaving, asked me details about what I saw in the email. When he realized didn’t actually read any email, and that I just found the reservation, he back tracked, refusing to leave.
He did admit that he made the reservation for him and his slutress, and eventually cancelled it. (it took him a month!)
But he broke my dream and my memory of my grandmother and our shared fondness for the Timberline lodge. I’d rather set the place on fire than step foot inside. He ruined it.
It’s probably not meant as a personal affront — they get this stuff for their AP’s cause they figure, if YOU liked it, that must mean it’d be a good gift to impress the next woman with. After all, CL is right — they lack empathy, so are completely clueless about what ANY other person might like. Once mine got our then-18 year old son a set of lawn ornaments for Christmas (and, as his sister pointed out, “my brother doesn’t have a lawn”).
I do think they take some weird satisfaction in that sort of thing, yes.
Another weird one: I eventually realized that he had his slut post to FB a cropped photo–just her face–of one of the sex pics DD eventually saw on his phone in its entirety.
The need to deceive, play games, keep secrets just runs all the way to their (shallow, basically hollow) cores.
Sick.
So true, Cashmere!!! It is sick and scary the joy they get out of that shit.
Let me tell you they ruin everything. It’s like they can’t help it. Stbx has taken Peachtitties (yes she posted a pic on Insta with peach halves in front of her breasts, classy) to every place we had memories at. He’s also racking up personal debt like no tomorrow trying to impress her. She just quit her job and is now putting pressure on him to sell up, retire and go live in the small country town she lives in. Umm he tells adult kids that he’s not even going to pretend that’s going to happen. What she doesn’t know is he has fresh supply. Suck eggs PT’s. It’s only a matter of time before you become a statistic with a cheater. Meh goodluck to them.
Camo lingerie. Wow. Mine would get me pajamas for Christmas and then get pissed off when I wore them. He wanted me to sleep naked, even when our kids were small and would need Mommy during the night. I never understood the logic of buying me a gift (which I liked) and then being angry with me for appreciating and using the gift. Idiot.
They’ll never see you coming.
Mine always gave me what appeared to be thoughtful gifts but were really things that he thought I should like or that that would make him look good. Things like jewelry and clothing. “see what great husband I am, I keep my wife well”. I generally wanted simple things. I actually wanted the spice rack I had asked for but he didn’t give me because somebody else told him it wasn’t a nice thing to give your wife. He also poo pooed giving me the booty slippers I wanted because only old ladies wear those. I have no doubt that Schmoopie will be thrilled with the expensive jewelry and clothes. I also have no doubt he can’t afford her. He doesn’t work for the bank anymore and he is still going to be making child support payments.
He also gave me a $300 purse when he knows I don’t use a purse because I have my work bag (the one I can fit a laptop into).
I did love and use all of the great wallets he gave me over the years including the one that matched the purse I used twice.
He was upset when I didn’t use the gifts he gave me but was also upset when I did because then they would get warn so I obviously wasn’t taking care of them.
He wanted a trophy wife.
Mine also went for the showy stuff. Meaningless, but pricey. Have sold off most of it. Buh-bye, dumb stuff that mean zip.
mine would always come home after business travels with either face creams or workout clothes. I figured he was trying to tell me just get younger looking and thinner, just like the hookers he was banging while I was home raising our child. He also bought several times sweater so it looks like Persian carpets, very similar to what his mother would wear. Ick.
“Mine always gave me what appeared to be thoughtful gifts but were really things that he thought I should like or that that would make him look good.”
THIS >>> Was my life. You summed it up perfectly.
Extension cord and scissors
I’m sorry. He must have had a lot of confidence to trust that no strangulation or stabbing would ensue.
OMG I just remembered. Our last Christmas together he gave me an extravagant new iPhone6 (& a matching one for himself). Then 18 months later, while living in my sister’s basement with my dog, I realize I’ve been paying for his phone AND mine, on my credit card the whole time. Jesus…
I got an early days cell phone in my Christmas stocking once. Turns out it was free for signing me up for paying for a two year contract. I explained patiently that a gift isn’t supposed to cost the recipient, and that if I could afford it I would have bought it myself. He said that was why it was in my stocking instead of under the tree.
So you have access to his texts and phone calls.
i had access to his phone records till we separated and he idiotically sent our youngest his “old” phone since hers broke. RED FLAG!!! But yes there are texts to OW#1 (or #6047??)
and yes they are incriminating but I filed in CA so it’s only somewhat relevant. I do feel like a fool. My kids saw things I did not see until now.
WTF was wrong with me?? I slap my forehead and think, after 35 years of loving him loyally (and I did love that man deeply), that I may now hate him. Which is so not meh.
I want to stop caring – truly, b/c the anger is NOT helpful to me. HOW do we get to meh???
OK, bepositive, extension cord and scissors made me LOL!
Epic cheapskate gave me a wrapped box of copy paper that he had stolen from work.
I can’t even… That alone is grounds for divorce.
At least it was wrapped. Did he stuff your stocking with individually wrapped tp from work as well?
What an ass!
FedUp, my god you really did just make me LOL with the tp comment ??? thanks for that good laugh
Copy paper? You’ve got to be kidding, seriously? ??♀️
Mine bought me a BMW for my birthday for show, (I didn’t want it but he insisted, said he’d be insulted if I turned it down) it was for him, for everyone to notice, look at what a great guy he is. He would ask me if I told people what he had bought me for my birthday.
Eight months later he left and filed for divorce and denied the car was a gift. I’m unemployed yet required to pay for this car, reimburse him what he put down on the car and make the remaining payments on the birthday gift that I didn’t want, I was happier with my mini van.
He told the judge, I went to the dealership and made him buy the BMW. Like I had the power to make him do anything.
He always talked a lot about other women— colleagues, friends, exes, etc. He didn’t have close male friends. I didn’t like it, but I blamed myself and thought I needed to work on my own “jealousy” issues. Of course he encouraged this. I didn’t know that narcissists enjoy something called “triangulation” where they bring a third person into the picture and set up rivalries for amusement. Right after he proposed to me on a special beach, he just had to tell me how he had talked a lot with his friend Kathy about the proposal and how it should be. That made me uncomfortable but I let it go like all the other little red flags. Fast forward— turns out he has a secret sex addiction. I ran and we are now divorced. He is supposedly in treatment and “working on developing same sex friendships.” He’s 56 but hey, better late than never I guess!!
My STBX did this while I was pregnant — with all three.
My self-esteem was shot already. I would feel strangely “off” and self-critical when he would take me somewhere (like his job) and I would meet a woman he knew. I could never quite figure out why it bothered me so much. I had never been a jealous person because I grew up in a household with tons of it —
and I hated it. So, instead of questioning him, I questioned myself. And I became horribly self-conscious.
Twenty years later, I find out that during each pregnancy he had been parading me in front of his OWs (for his own sick amusement). (Yes, he did it at other times too … but those instances really leave a bad taste in my mouth.)
Oh, mine liked to take his 19 year old whores to upscale shops and new, hot restaurants, parade them around, and then take me there the following week.
I think it made him feel special, proving to practically total strangers that he could bag young women and still maintain a trophy wife.
Thing is, nobody gave a crap! In fact, several people said after the fact that they felt sorry for me and thought he was an ass for doing it. Of course, none of these people bothered to let me in on the secret either.
They all said they figured it was none of their business, or assumed I must already know and was ok with it. I wish people would get more involved instead of turning a blind eye.
“They all said they figured it was none of their business, or assumed I must already know and was ok with it. I wish people would get more involved instead of turning a blind eye.”
Me too. It really sucks to be the last person to know what in the heck is being done to harm you.
When I first moved to the city after grad school, I waitressed. My coworkers and I saw this all the time. All the husbands who would bring their girlfriends to the restaurant and then bring their wife and sometimes kids! And sit in the same table!! We would fantasize how to blow the whistle on them without getting fired. Disgusting.
Jesss Mom- I, too had a bad feeling at his work. One night we would dress up for his work Christmas party and he spent 1000. on a suit n shoes for himself( I had no idea until after, oncluding matching tie to match my dress). And he was super affectionate and was getting me drinks etc. Ppl weren’t coming up to me to talk to me but a couple of times I saw some women approach him in the drink line and put their hand on his chest and he wouldn’t walk away. Huge red flag now I see why. He was patading me infront of women he slept with and he was their manager. He actually told me on dday that these women wpuld never say anything and no one knows at the company. Sick bastard.
My STBX was always talking about his female friends. He would always say how well he thought his female friends and I would get along, but somehow whenever I wanted to try to get together with them, he would mysteriously “forget” to give me their email addresses, or invite them to parties we threw. Now that I’ve found out that he’s a sex addict/amorous narcissist, I know that he was sleeping with at least two of these women, and trying to sleep with several more. I do wonder if he was trying to get me to be jealous, but as an adult who is capable of having non-sexual friendships with members of the opposite sex, I never dreamed of it.
Yes it’s hard for those of us who are capable of non sexual relationships with people to understand how these disordered personalities think. We do assume a degree of normalcy in other people that might not be there. When a disordered person has been very close to you, the pain is intense. That’s why we need this space to talk to each other.
Interesting point!
My dad raised my brother and I … I was used to hanging around guys in completely Platonic friendships. Looking back I can see that I projected my innocent perspective onto him.
But, I will grant myself a bit of a break — he is one hell of a good actor. Never came home late; never received strange phone calls; never made strange phone calls, etc. (He always cheated while AT work or at least when I had every reason to believe he was at work.)
My ex was always jealous of my relationships with my guy friends. I had two brothers and always had more guy friends in high school and college, so to me, it wasn’t a big deal. But ex would always tell me, “No matter if he’s your friend or not, a guy will ALWAYS want to sleep with you.” Little did I know he was describing himself!
My ex told me that too.
Mine says the same thing too. Always making innocent things sexual and disgusting.
He told me all a guy wants from a woman is to hook up with her.
But his female contacts were never flirts, nooooo siree, they were jokes, bets, just friends and all of that.
He cant even admit it, but the evidence is hard against him and i didnt need more at one point.
Mine didn’t mind, strangely. Though, he loved to make fun of me because I tended to not SEE it when someone was hitting on me. I was so flippin’ oblivious … and he thought my naivete was amusing.
I’ll have to ponder that one. His motivation had to be crappy and mean-spirited. Turns out, it always was.
He didnt mind because he had decided he didn’t want that turf. They select their turfs.
Got the same lecture too (while he was cheating!). Projection much? LOSERS
Mine Too! In so many ways a “model” husband. My friends would always tell me how lucky I was that he was home for dinner every night and never demanded “guys nights.” Little did I know, he didn’t have to. His flexible work environment and schedule along with travel I had zero reason to suspect (When the army sends you, you go), meant he never had to. He also had a government issued phone that I could never ask to see or open. But, he really wasn’t on it. There was nothing suspicious about this aspect of his behavior. After it all came out everyone was like “How could you not know?” Why in the hell would you assume your husband was banging prostitutes over his lunch hour? Who would think that. I guarantee if I HAD thought that, those same people would have told me I was crazy for thinking so. No way for a chump to win.
At work? Or just at the office?
I’ll never forget how proud of himself my Shaman-Level Energy STBX was as he explained how he hadn’t actually lied to me because he’d always been careful not to say that he “had to work late” but rather he “had to stay late at the office.” Which was true enough, he did have to stay late – to meet up with his Froot Loop Schmoopie.
Wish i had read the alternative decode for the english language. …he made everything ok in his head because the “lie” was not technically a LIE. he used lawyers to tell me how generous he was going to be in child support by saying….”the lawyers will start at X and take it from there. It is fair ( in the eyes of the law anyway ) ” sure you are going to hide behind lawyers to be told you’re doing the right thing…. well done you !!
Similar story, Jesssmom. I grew up with brothers. Prefer guy friends generally. He grew up with sisters, and always got on really well with women. I thought that was great. The thing is, for nearly 25 years, he wasn’t fucking them. They really were just friends (oh, believe me, I have now years of retrospective detective work behind me on this!) And then, he fucked ALL that trust. Also a FANTASTIC liar during the affair. I had no idea. He wasn’t out late. Or unexplainably absent. He did all the travelling to her house – she usually came to ours, though – and fucking her while I was at work. Being a self employed farmer, he could make the time. And the place, well, we had several of those they could smear their filth over. Very clever. He says he scared himself with how expert he was at lying.
Sounds familiar. Mine only cheated at lunchtime!!
Very good point. My ex had lots of female “friends” at work and I never thought twice about it. Never once thought or questioned that they were anything but nonsexual friendships. Of course, once I knew about his serial infidelity, I did wonder if there was more to those friendships than I thought but whatever. Too meh now to care one way or the other.
I knew the first time Jackass mentioned the MOW (wondering “where her husband was” at a funeral, talking about her coming over to see his mother’s dining set which might have someday been for sale) that he was involved with her. There’s not as much fine in the triangle if the person being betrayed doesn’t know about it.
My ex also had only female friends. All his male had serious problems and only lasted a month or so. His one life long make friend was a serial cheater. Ex used to talk about how disgusting that behavior was yet still maintained the friendship.His reason for no make friends was that he was couldn’t trust them not to hit on me!!
Make- male!! Ugh coffee first!
“He always talked a lot about other women— colleagues, friends, exes, etc.” This was Kaa. When after 22 years I suggested he had EAs . He became angry and said it was the creation of “gob shite journalists ” also he noticed that I didn’t have close male friends like his close female ones. He often gave presents that benefited him. I got a bigger frying pan and a curry cook book for my birthday in the first year ( he is a glutton now with OW who is a professional cook). A set of mugs for my 50th. Re gifted His present from his employer one Christmas along with a cd that had been in the car for weeks. He refused to see this as unreasonable. Last wedding anniversary he got me a season ticket to an art gallery that he had already one for . A couple of months after he left he took OW.
My ex-cheater-husband, too. He started the triangulation just a few months after I moved 650 miles away from my family to be closer to him. He said he went out for dinner with his ex-girlfriend (they were still in college together and dated/sex for 3ish years). I was like, “What?!!” And he was like, “it’s no big deal. We are just friends. Everyone does this.” RED FLAG! And then his other female “friend” that he was planning to visit in England (she went into the Army) after college graduation. While he was there visiting his “friend”, I found what looked to be love letters from her to him. Her saying, “If you come visit me, we can spend the ENTIRE night together and have sex.” I read these letters while he was visiting her there with a male friend. I was devastated! I was too embarrassed to admit that I read the letters, so I just asked him about her and of course he said she was “just a friend.” I FAILED TO TRUST MY GUT!!! And I spackled and wanted to believe he was the “nice guy” that was in front of me. Years and years of him talking about other female “friends.” So many stories to tell.
A few years back, we went to the owners of the company he works for annual summer party. One of the guys that my ex worked with came up to us and he said to me, “Assbrain spends most of his day walking around work visiting and talking with all the women.” He said it in a joking kind of way, BUT now I know he wasn’t joking at all! My cheater just did the narc smirk when this guy said this. It was the truth!
My cheater listed off the name of three women he “gave up for me” while we were married. I guess they were some of his many, many emotional affair/”healthy female friends”. I had never ever heard of these name before!
My God the triangulation!! I do not miss that horrible, uneasy feeling I’d have. He got to the point where he was 100% underground with his “healthy female friends” and he got to the point that he wouldn’t even tell me he went out with male co-workers/friends for lunch. Even if the male was our pastor or the best man at our wedding. I called him out on why don’t you tell me you went out for coffee with our pastor or your best man and he said something really mind-fucking — I can’t even remember what it is anymore because it was so crazy when he said it!
The hardest part has been trying to forgive myself for not trusting my gut/intuition. There were so many red flags even before we got married, but I spackled and ignored and trusted the cheaters words and not actions.
We met at work in my country where he came in as a consultant for 2 months. We chatted daily but had one gone out only once before he left for good, I thought. I was totally off my feet. Then in a month he called me, asked to take time off and join him in a road trip. I was thrilled! After 10 days of intensive love bombing he proposed and I said yes. First red flag of moving fast that I ignored. I thought I was so special this alpha male chose me! And the prospect of engaging into a long distance relationship at 30 was not very enticing. I thought he was the man!
He left again and we decided I would spend a month or so with him over in his country before the big wedding we planned in a year. Then he disappeared for 4 months. No emails or phone calls. When I finally emailed him that I was calling it quits he resurfaced and called and pretended to be so busy and surprised! Why! We decided to marry, right?! This was followed by another intensive month of sparkles with him then another 4 months of separation and the big adventure wedding in the mountains which I fully implemented under “his guidance” as he liked to joke. The red flag then was that he refused to wear a wedding band and was going to borrow one from his uncle for the church ceremony only. One of our guests, a jewelry designer, overheard our argument the day before the wedding and gave us his present in advance: identical looking rings, staineless steel with 3 golden moving balls in them, nice but nothing like a wedding band. Cheater fell in love with them and committed to wearing them always but they looked nothing like a wedding band so no threat to his hook ups with OWs. Another red flag ignored.
And after I moved cross countries the triangulation started pretty much right away with his multiple female friends. I was the jealous one, the one that did not understand real friendship. That went even after DDay when we were supposedly reconciling. He told me he would never give up “speaking” with his friends because they had a special place in his life. He told me he was not like me “easily discarding people from life” referring to my ex bf. That mindfuck still hauns me. Why oh why do we not trust our gut and choose to believe these idiots?
I have this same story. “My God the triangulation!” I left NY to move in with him in MN. He said he loved me and wanted to be with me but everything else he did spoke otherwise. I felt deparate for a partner in life. I found journal entries he wrote on a legal pad on the kitchen about other women. When I asked him about them he acted horrified that I would read his personal journal right there on the kitchen table. I should have averted my eyes, he said. He actually left a birthday dinner I made (for him) that we planned to help his married female friend with her laundry shoot, it seemed to have gotten “stuck”. He left me on a dance floor at his friend’s wedding for this same woman because she looked “uncomfortable” with the person she was dancing with (not her husband). This woman was particularly snarky to me. I felt sick inside. So many incidents that added up to a sick-making life. I did not trust my gut. I am still working on this.
Tracy, perhaps a post? How do you trust your gut? I just took a job because it is better pay amd has healthcare, but my insides were saying no. I am worried that I act in deparation again.
Martha,
You are a wonderful, caring woman.
YOU have nothing to forgive yourself for.
YOU did nothing wrong.
((((Hugs strong lady))))
“He always talked a lot about other women— colleagues, friends, exes, etc. He didn’t have close male friends.”
THIS. He has close male childhood friends, but never hung out with them. However, he went to happy hours ALL THE TIME with female work colleagues. I questioned it but was told it was nothing. So I too thought it was just my jealousy. WRONG. Turns out all his affairs were with these work colleagues.
“He always talked a lot about other women— colleagues, friends, exes, etc. He didn’t have close male friends.”
This was a red flag I missed too.
I will never date/be with a man who only has female friends again. It’s too weird. Mine said, “I just don’t know how to relate to other men.”
UGH.
Mine match most of CL’s … especially the lack of reciprocity. I bought him stuff a lot (mostly little small, thoughtful stuff — but stuff I knew he would like). And I always paid when we went out to eat. I didn’t have a problem paying because he was getting ready to move out of state to help care for his sick grandpa (long story). And, while this was all true … what I should have noticed was that he DIDN’T MIND that I paid for everything. Looking back, had the shoe been on the other foot, I would have felt terrible … offered to cook at home rather than eating out, etc.
My STBX actually had a TON of friends and he had no problem introducing me to them — but all of them were “players” who drank too much. It didn’t occur to me that you pretty much convey WHO you are by whom you associate with often. And it never occurred to me to question my assumption that he was the mature one in the group. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Not even close! (Hell, I see now that he may have been one of the less mature ones …)
Anger while drinking. I never had a problem with responsible drinking — responsibly (no driving) and not excessively. My STBX only drank some of the time I was around (oops, didn’t know he was drinking in my absence). But, once in a while, he would go into a blind rage while drinking. I hated it enough to demand that he quit drinking or I wouldn’t date him anymore. Two points here … 1) he quit drinking completely (which I mistakenly took as a sign of his maturity as well as his commitment to me). 2) I assumed the periodic rage would disappear with the alcohol. Nope. Rage is deeper than alcohol. It is a part of WHO he is.
Maya Angelou … When people show you who they are, believe them; the first time.
OMG I also paid for all of our meals our! And he was very comfortable with that. He had child support to pay, he was transitioning from his finance career to psychotherapy, blah blah blah. Little did I know that he couldn’t afford a dinner out but he could afford a dominatrix for $300 an hour. Yes his secret ( did I mention he was a 50 something Dad and therapist in training?) was that bad.
Well, at least you didn’t pay his child support. Yep. I was that much of an idiot. His mom had been paying it [another huge red flag] …. so, when we moved in together, I told him we should start paying it and I would cover it until he found a new job. Because, you know, his other job didn’t quite cut it for Mr. Fantabulous. (***facepalm)
And there is another red flag. Irresponsibility.
And another. Unable or unwilling to keep a job for any length of time. (He always seemed to have such good reasons to quit … again, and again, and again …)
I don’t know if mine are specific cheater red flags or just douche bag flags
A) despite a full time job, still living with brother and SIL in hoarder basement at age of 30
B) despite no bills see A) declaring personal bankruptcy
C) claiming a guy is your BF despite not seeing or hearing from him since you were 9, at the age of 32
I had the rush to intimacy, he had no friends, he had never had a long term relationship and yet,
I chose to overlook it all. I wanted to get married and was happy to have a met a tall, attractive to me physically, no children from past relationships guy who treated his mom like gold. I never thought I would sparkle so hard just to meet the socially “expected” life events of marriage and kids.
I regret giving my kids the worst, emotionally unavailable DB of a biological father.
Clearly, not MEH today.
Sorry you’re having a rough day, PhysicsGal. Sending a big virtual (((hug))) your way.
PG – Kids need ONE SANE PARENT… you’re it. Stop putting energy into regrets about your sperm donor. Give the kids an amazing Mom – you are enough.
I needed to hear this. Thank you Meh. I feel regret about who I chose for my child’s father constantly.
I forgot to add — I’m so sorry you had to put up with that. Isn’t it amazing how infantile an adult can be … even when he (or she) is darn near 50.
With age comes wisdom, UNLESS the person is a disordered narc-type.
Every. Single. One.
I was wife #3 too.
I would add following
× he didn’t tell me about wife #2 until I Googled
× he got pissed at me for googling
× when I got pregnant he stayed home to take care of the fetus
“when I got pregnant he stayed home to take care of the fetus” I hope you’re far enough removed to not mind my saying that’s hilarious!!
Was he the fetus?
I tried so hard to be wise!! I tried to assess his character, have my friends and family weigh-in on him. I saw red flags, but I spackled over them. Yes, he did everything on the red flag list above. Here is one red flag, my good and wise friend asked me, “How do you feel after he’s left?” I answered, “Relieved.”
So anyway, Chump Nation, I’d like to share with you a milestone: all of our paperwork for divorcing is now before the judge, waiting for his signature. Getting to this place was a huge accomplishment, I don’t have the heart to list all or any of the agonizing steps and time it took to get here.
I guess it’s really going to happen.
There will be no remorse, no apology, no actions to reconcile. What was for me, my family, my friends, my faith community, an eternal commitment, was kind of a fling to my chosen one, I guess.
I feel good from the no contact — it is such wonderful medicine!!! To get his demented spirit out of my psyche. I think clearly now. My emotions are stable. I am content.
I am working my new life, and enjoying it. I feel God has blessed me. I don’t want another man in my life, romantically. I don’t think I can go through the whole arc of another relationship again. I don’t think I was made for that. I somehow built myself up enough to do it a second time, but I’m not willing to cheapen the whole marriage scene by trying again and again.
While waiting for the decree to be finalized, a little part of me still wishes that a miracle could happen, he would realize what a shithead he’s been and say / do the right things . . .
Moving on. Once the decree is signed and the divorce is finalized, I wonder how I will feel?
You are mighty, QueenMother. Such a long, tough journey behind you … and still a bit more to come. You are ahead of me in the process, but I also wonder what the other side of all of this will feel like.
I like to imagine that the other side will feel safe; a bit like an adventure when I’m figuring out who in the heck I am; and a bit of a relief … having finally moved beyond the weight of the negativity that all of this has become.
I hope it rains on the other side. I am looking forward to seeing a rainbow.
Sending all my best!
Take Care,
Jess’s Mom
Dear JessMom and QueenMother,
I wish for you, in your sky, very soon, the biggest ? Ever!!
That put a huge smile on my face. Thank you, Peacekeeper.
Relieved, QueenMother. You will feel relieved.
Maybe a little sad at the end of something.And eventually, happy.
My divorce was final last fall after Dday #2 in spring 2016. I moved fast with divorce when he moved out to pursue schmoopie. I knew the sparkle would wear off and he would no longer be accommodating as I had lived through this once.
For me the finalization of the divorce was a starting point really. It meant he had no control in my life anymore. And much less in my kids life. He was a control freak and a dick to us.
We still struggle to set boundaries with him. He keeps trying to rope the kids in for more time with him. The kids and I have said no to that.
He’s just purchased a 5000 square foot house with almost an acre of land. Has all the bells and whistles. They still don’t want to go–imagine that. He expects them to do all the chores (he didn’t do any adulting in our 20 years together). But he makes good money as a doctor so he pays them chore money. Kids just butch about how long it all takes to do.
My daughter tries to avoid going over as she says she has to feed the bear? She defines it as him making her spend more time with him and having more chores to do!!
The fantasy life with schmoopie 2.0? I make no effort to seek out the scoop on this. But pursuing your 14 year old daughter’s 20 something assistant coach while your volunteer coaching seems like a bad idea all the way around ? Who couldn’t see where this was leading? They both got fired last spring. My daughter cut off communication with both of them and has just started talking to her dad again in the last few months.
I think he may have a sadz. I don’t respond to his texts. Kids spend the required amount of time with him. I don’t think schmoopie is around anymore. The fairy tale ending came. But it was for me!!!!
MJB and Feelingit
I feel a lot of pain in your posts, but mostly I see a powerful strength, a great love for your children.
I just have to tell you, that I feel so proud of you both, you are a shinning example to all of CN.
YOU, dear Ladies, are mighty,
Your cheaters are…..well they are just trash, so much below you, difficult to find words to describe.
As CL says, “Trust that they suck!”
Just keep on being mighty. CN is happy to have your back!
(Hugs to your precious children and strength to deal with their dealings with their father).
I know that is what hurts the most and I am so sorry.
Xxxxxxx
JesssMom
The first morning I awoke in my home, a little over 2 months into my new single satan free life…
a double rainbow in the sky over my house!!!! 
I wish I could post the pictures here…but??? And, last week there was another one!!! 
The preceding storm was gnarly but! The double rainbow was miraculous! It will happen for you and all of us! I promise! 
(((((((JesssMom)))))))
Ooopsie
…should read NEW home 
untained by satan home 
That must have been spectacular! What a beautiful way to start your new, untarnished life!
Thank you for sharing that — I’ll keep the visual firmly in mind.
(((Hugs))) to you too, JeepTess!
Take Care,
Jess’s Mom
JeepTess,
Just read your rainbow(S) post.
Thank you for starting my day with a big happy smile!
I needed that!
You deserve a rainbow, double double, every day.
Xxxxxxxxx
I don’t have any wisdom or advice but I found your post comforting in that I can Empathize with what you must have been through because I am there now. It is soothing to know chumps survive.
I will say to you what I always want to hear: it’ll be ok.
Congratulations. The first time I was FINALLY divorced (a year and a half after filing) I smiled walking out of the courthouse. It was such a huge relief to be FREE.
The second time, the end of March, I cried, even though I knew it was the only thing to be done. I loved him, I was fully invested in him, and it was final so quickly after filing, that I’m still mourning the death of that relationship. I’m good until I have to send my kids for visitation, with his new fake family and his Twatwaffle. Makes me sick to have to send my kids in so he can use them for props.
“There will be no remorse, no apology, no actions to reconcile. What was for me, my family, my friends, my faith community, an eternal commitment, was kind of a fling to my chosen one, I guess.
I feel good from the no contact — it is such wonderful medicine!!! To get his demented spirit out of my psyche. I think clearly now. My emotions are stable. I am content.”
Beautifully put. I agree. This was my experience also. I too am happier now – no one raping me (because I didn’t consent to having sex with him when he was having affairs therefore I consider that a form of rape), abusing me, manipulating me, fucking with me, wasting my time.
I am 35 this year and freezing my eggs.
I am finishing a degree in a profession I enjoy.
I am working on real friendships with people who reciprocate.
Life is good. No one to hold me back anymore.
Phew. Huge relief.
My experience is that the love bombing can go both ways, and using their contacting you as a measure of their narcissistic ability is a double edge sword: they can also do reverse love bombing.
What I mean by this is that they do not to call you when they say they will, they are late without an excuse. They do not return an SMS in a timely matter. For those of us who are there targets, as we take ownership of the relationship more than they do, we end up doing love bombing. We are triggered to chase them to give them centrality, and also let them know how far down our boundaries are with their behavior. They are essentially testing us to see how much abuse we are willing to put up with on the front end.
This! Consistent bad behavior followed by reasonable-sounding excuses is a red flag. It’s both testing you and gaslighting you (to set the stage where you are always “over-reacting” and the other person is always “reasonable”.)
Yep. I got the reasonable-sounding excuses, too, but now I know they were elaborate lies.
I have a new twist on reverse love-bombing; mine wanted me to write him a love poem long before I was ready to do so. When I finally packed up all his stuff two weeks before the divorce, the imbalance in romantic statements became abundantly evident–Hannibal had kept all the cards I’d given him over the years expressing my love. How many such cards did I have from him? zero.
Ugh…what a revelation, Tempest. Makes me sick what we put up with.
Calamity Jane–I suspect we ALL put up with a lack of reciprocity & kindness in our relationships, some instances are more tangible than others.
This could be me. In fact, it was. So many thoughtfully selected cards, from me expressing my deep love for him. A small amount of cheap dime store cards from him, usually purchased by his staff, and always just signed with his name.
Mine signed “Always.” Yeah, that worked out. Asshole.
Oh, think of how often the lack of things like nice gifts or cards makes us TRY HARDER.
I keep trying to formulate in one or two sentences the problem of having to TRY to get someone’s love and attention, the idea that someone has to DO things or BE a certain way to get a particular partner. I think I operated on the belief most of my life. So I did lots of things to please people ad demonstrate….what? That I was worthy? Or attractive? I just didn’t understand that real love or even genuine interest in getting to know someone doesn’t come out of that mentality. It’s not that we do nice things to “buy” someone’s love; it’s that we are wasting our resources in a situation that will never be reciprocal. Today I bought fresh cucumbers from a farm stand. Got one for me and one for the Very Kind Man. And this week he’ll probably have a stack of magazines he saved from the recycling at his work. One of the first things he did was ask me which magazines I might want to read before he sends them to recycling. In a normal relationship, kindness is the language and the currency of interaction. And it flows both ways.
You hit the nail on the head.
This behavior develops so slowly over time that we don’t even notice it happening. Then, after the relationship is over, we realize how strange it was.
There were a few times when my cheater did something nice for me, like bring me coffee when I was up late working. I remember being floored by how nice that was at the time. But in a normal, reciprocal relationship, that’s normal behavior.
Tempest,
Those damn cards, how many of them did I give him, just like you, and the words we poured out in them.
Yep, I think I got a few with his name scribbled on them, ( can think of 2 or 3).
I think stores should place these cards in the same isle, and right next to, the condoms.
That way when cheaters buy their giant condom supply, ( which most don’t use), they can pick up a card for Smoophie, OW, Miss Perfect Lollipop, whatever!
One stop shopping, cause they’re busy ya know!
Absolutely, Bouncing Back. The reverse love bombing. YouTuber Begood4000 calls this the Sweet/Mean Cycle and they do the Narcissist Doo Doo test on us. After them being the best boyfriend in the world, they will start withholding. Withholding attention, phone calls, texts, silent treatment, etc. We are left wondering, “What did I to wrong?” And we try harder to win them back and “fix” the relationship that we think we did something to break. And this sets the standard for the rest of our relationship. Us doing most of the relationship work and pretty much ALL the work in general! Either friendship or romantic relationship — if anyone ever does this to me again, I’m gone!
I got lured into the reverse love bombing…very strange.
Our early relationship was while he was in the military and communication options were few, so letters were the thing. I have a box of letters he sent and he kept all my letters.
I kept the letters he wrote as a historical reference for my children. The ones I wrote him…went into the trash. I dont ever want anyone to read my words of love and devotion which were wasted on him.
Yes!
Then, when we were in marriage counseling, he complained about how upset I’d get when he wouldn’t respond to texts “right away”. It’s not that I wasn’t upset “right away”. It’s that everyone else I text with actually responds. But he lets hours go by, hours when I know he responds to others because he ALWAYS has his phone on him. At home, he’d bring his phone into the bathroom with him. I saw the double standard.
Cheaters suck.
We were young when we got married. Had the perfect life honestly. Good marriage with kids.. About the 33 year mark I realized he was going through something. It’s happened at times over the years with both of us. Nothing extreme and we made it through it. The last thing on my mind was another woman. I know-Stupid Me!!
He had gotten really quiet. He was putting me off for sex. Telling me he was tired. We were getting older. We are in our 50’s. He was almost embarrassingly affectionate in front of my family and kids but not in the bedroom.
He big time lost his cool with one of our kids one night. An adult kid. That had Never Happened Before! Ever!! A few days later he got a work related text on a Saturday night that started me questioning him.
It was his reaction and how he started throwing me under the bus in front of our kids that assured me without a doubt that something was up. That had never happened in over a 30 year really good marriage.
He did apologize and grovel and spent months trying to convince me no affair but of course then I discovered him hiding money. I shouldn’t have come back. I did and now am waiting for the next thing to come out so my kids will get it when I walk out! He has done the emotional apologies and they’ve bought into it.
Darling Stillhere —
You are in a very good place (for a very bad situation), you are calm, cool and collected. You see what’s going on. Would you like to make a plan to optimize your situation?
Here are some options for you: get a hold of the finances. Know everything. Get a post-nup from husband. Tell him to quit his job (yes), and get another one. He needs to go no-contact with OW.
Tell a man he admires and who is happily married, who can provide counsel and friendship to him.
Maintain a cool and calm relationship with him.
These are just starters. Like I said, you are in a good place (mentally/emotionally and at the start of the problem) and can take some effective steps to optimize and bad situation. Others may have other ideas, for you, on how to proceed from here.
My advice is simply to cut your losses. In the beginning stages of grief you are trying to still look for the good and the ole spackler still has battery life. I’ve lived through 2 Dday’s years apart with 2 different schmoopies. This is who they are and will pick screwing around if given any opportunity. It didn’t ‘just happen ‘. This is their drug of choice. Most any hole who gives them kibble will do.
Leave. Rebuild. I can’t imagine remarrying but who knows. I don’t need a man to feel like someone. I produce my own kibble for myself. And I am going to be more cautious with how I share it. Right now I am lavishing it on my kids and our home life.
Thank you Queen Mother. I have moments of pure craziness as others can tell you from things I’ve written on here! This stuff makes me more than a little crazy. Just so you know..
I have all access to the money and keep track of it.
He no longer works with her. Works with his old company. Same place and time everyday. Even calls me when he’s leaving. I never asked him too… lol
We went to two counselors during this time. The first counselor was beating his wife. She divorced him. Second guy was a man from our church. He honestly said some good things that personally helped me. He never held my husband accountable for anything because it was all circumstantial. We went back a second time because this bitch woman’s husband left a message on my husbands cell phone to tell my husband that I’d been harassing his wife for three months and my husband needed to stop me.
Two months before she had text messaged my husband for more work. I had written her and told her he would no longer be doing any work for her. I was nice. No language but she knew where I was coming from. Told me she was blocking our number and she wouldn’t want to be in my shoes. Funny thing, I never accused or even asked if she had an affair with my husband.
Three months later I decided to see if her number was really blocked and quickly hung up when her message went on. She texted immediately. I texted back and was not nice.
Why the defensive if you are so innocent? Hence the phone call from her husband.
My husband came home from work the day he got the call from the husband and tricked me into going somewhere with him and played the message. ( this was a little over a year ago). He plays the message and proceeds to tell me we are going to their house to deal with it. I wish I had the presence of mind to have let him but I ended up having a full fledged panic attack. Never in my life had that happened!
We ended up going back to the second man. Had only been once before and we went directly there. My husband scared the crap out of me with his surprise announcement that we were heading to their hose. He has never physically laid a finger on me and didn’t that night but the rage I saw is what did it.
So I told this man everything! Things I hadn’t told him the first time because I was trying not to throw my husband under the bus. I let it all out! I thought the man was honestly going to have a heart attack! We finished up with no solid direction.
We left and I calmly told my husband that he could go to these people’s house now. I could handle it. Of course he said no. He thinks they are weird. Really? Ya think? I tried again to convince him to go. He thinks they are crazy. Ya think?
I think he set me up.So we lived life for a couple months until I discovered the money issue and left.
We did leave that church. At another one and nobody knows this mess. I know it will be a place where we can get help when the time comes. I asked for help at the other one and not one call. Husband did reach out to a friend there but didn’t share the whole story. That friend and his family left that church and have cut everybody off, including us. I’m actually okay with it and just done with that drama.
So, I did tell him in the midst of all that, that I would take his ass for everything if I found out it happened. Looks like she’s trying to move on with her life and husband too.
So, here is where I’m at for now.
I did the pastorial counseling with my first husband and all I ended up with was being spiritually abused in addition to be physically abused.
I strongly urge you to go to a counselor with some actual credentials. Quite honestly, the church is ill-equipped to deal with issues of abuse in marriage, and I would never, ever trust a church to counsel me through it, ever again.
Me too! I will never ever go to a pastor for counseling again! At least not marriage/infidelity counseling. I was so naïve in thinking that a pastor who says he “loves Jesus”, yada yada would actually uphold what the Bible says about adultery, lying, cheating, etc. Nope! Not at all! My cheating ex-husband got the church in the divorce, because he’s a narc and he’s able to hide out in the church by portraying himself to be this great Christian man with excellent morals. One minute he’s at church leading young boys in a Christian group like the Boys Scouts and then he’d leave that meeting and go fuck and spend the night with his whore/girl friend. And yes, he did this while we were still married. Good riddance to the cheater and that church!
Oh geez… I’m so sorry. My husband also finally met with our pastor( after I left him) and asked the pastor if he had a counselor he could recommend. The pastor didn’t know of one! What is up with that?
Also, this other woman just preached in her small church for the third time.( can’t make this up). I listened online. I just had to. Yes, she’s nuts. Every message has elements in it that no matter what you do, you are forgiven. She was even so bold to ask everyone where is it said that you have to ask for God’s forgiveness. She’s a crazy freak! Enough of that!!
After saying all of that, I hope you truly understand that your exes spiritual life is gone. He is only fooling himself. Like you said, a wolf in sheeps clothing.
My husband has spent the last year groveling and begging for forgiveness but still swears no affair. He is not half the man he was before. He has struggled tremendously spiritually. I think I know why!
Ditto. My X husband is the Pastor!!!! Schmoopie is also ordained. They should never be allowed to council anyone on any topic.
Just because somebody wears a collar and has an education it doesn’t mean that they can guide you through marriage issues!!!
I had a really positive experience with our pastor. He called out Husband’s sexual withholding as unfaithful, as in, not upholding the marriage covenant. He asked Husband “How do you feel about putting WAOTF in the way of temptation like that?” Husband did not answer.
Later Pastor told me the abuse I was suffering was not OK. When someone abuses another person, they abuse the image of God.
When I told Pastor I felt like trash, he said I was a daughter of the King, and prayed for me as such.
Of course I bawled all over myself at that point.
This man and his family are truly a gift to our church.
I am sorry to other chumps who have had terrible experiences. Clergy who perpetuate the abuse and lies in the name of God are just sick on a whole different level. It makes me physically ill to think about it.
Martha,
Please excuse this being off topic, but is the boy scout type group called Cadets? Just wondering if we are from the same religious tradition.
Step 1: Get a lawyer.
How is quitting his job going to stop him from cheating?
That is standard RIC crap. Like the problem is just contact with that particular woman. RIC often locates the issue in the OW/OM. All the poor wayward has to do is get away from that BAD person. I have news for them: The cheater can’t get away from the “bad” person–because THEY are the bad person. There are 3.5 billion women on the planet. Getting away from this ONE isn’t going to stop a cheater cheating.
Yeah, the RIC was not healthy for me, which is why I was so happy to find this place.
I admit I had some bizzaro thoughts when I first found out he was cheating. (I knew within weeks I couldn’t trust him again so this was fleeting.) But I’d think “I’ll make him move to another city!” “I’ll do the 180!” Or I’ll “demand” he end it, all that crazy shit you think when your head is still spinning. I would obsess about this chick thinking she must be great. In the end, trust was decimated. Once I internalized THAT and quit worrying about everything else, I started to heal and move past it.
That’s why RIC is the worst. I can only imagine the bullshit I’d be putting up with if I seriously tried fixing it with that scumbag. She’d never go away and slowly, I’d go insane. Nope and nope.
Also I should mention, if it wasn’t her, it would have been one of the other 3-5 billion women on the planet. I’m pretty sure I made the right choice.
Amen Rumblekitty
The BLESS THEM women that told me what the hell was goin on said to me, ‘Sweetheart, it could have been anyone of us, he was in here (Kroger’s) chattin us all up just to see who would take him on.’
Amen…THEY are the problem…the ow/om’s are just ‘game’ pieces.
Lose em and don’t look back.
There’s a great post on yesterday’s main board in which a chump lays out how she is using her time living with her cheater husband to get her financial ducks in a row. Worth a read for you.
Ooo I agreed, that was a good one.
I almost wish I would have went that route, but I’m too knee-jerky for that.
He bought me an ice cream cake for my birthday, even though I hated them. Three years in a row. They were his favorite.
mutterchump,
Happy Birthday to him, NOT!
I hope you get a proper Birthday Cake now!
I think they enjoy watching the chump try to be gracious when they receive shit gifts. For me, every Christmas meant bare root roses under the tree. I got to plant and water and feed and prune them. He got fresh flowers in the house every day. On my birthday, I got coasters he would pick up on his way home from work, usually with a card. Never a cake.
While these things were constants over 16 years, there were occasional exceptions. Like a Thighmaster and a Walkman he immediately commandeered and used religiously. A piece of art he wanted and had hideously framed.
I always went to the effort to buy the Fucktard thoughtful gifts. And I’ll never forget his comment that last Christmas: “This is what I wanted LAST YEAR.”
Yes, it is all about them.
Oh my God, the gifts. My recent ex boyfriend never gave it any thoughts. Almost every time he was coming to my city, he brought a box of chocolate. I thought it was sweet, until I figured out that he was always getting it in the same store. The girl that he was hitting on was working there, so getting the chocolate was a perfect excuse to see her
Same with cheating…I was completely sure he was a fellow chump, because “many” exes cheated on him. Never really found out how many, but he was keeping in touch with them and of course forgave them, “because he’s Christian”. So I thought he was such a good person compared to me 
He did not love, or even like, his family. There was no warmth or genuine engagement with each other in his family — just shame and a kibbles extraction system that was very difficult to watch.
He had nearly no friends. The three leftovers from college he had, he did not like. He was not on good terms with any of his exes. Sought out other acquaintances as friends, but mostly based on status. He had such trouble building real intimacy or being vulnerable and open to anyone else.
He constantly people and their work as a way to make himself feel better. He always knew better, even about things outside his field or competence.
He had a very fragile, easily insulted ego and masculinity. Needed constant reassurance and delimitation from others.
He almost never read. Rarely finished a book — once every few years. Never quite felt comfortable on his own, alone with his own thoughts. Never had a hobby or a passion. Outside of visiting a lot prostitutes when traveling, that is.
Yes, he was shit at gift-giving. For years he came from trips abroad with token guilt gifts — earrings and scarves that were nowhere near my style. I kept telling him he gets me another woman’s jewelry. Did not know get also got me other women’s STDs — talk about shit gifting! Also: He wanted me to organize parties and trips for him. But then, my birthdays and anniversaries were hell. One of my birthdays, he made a “reservation” at a fast-food pizza place: “You like pizza, no?” But mostly he made sure he traveled for my birthdays and our anniversaries.
Yes, he was more than ok with lack of reciprocity, from managing finances to access to computers and cell phones to sex or household chores.
* He constantly PUT DOWN people and their work.
Sorry, should never comment before the coffee kicks in.
The moving fast and the no friends are the big ones for me. I started seeing STBX in January and he moved in with me at my mums house at the beginning of August. He was 19 and I was 21. His parents were going to live in Scotland and he didn’t want to go. He was supposed to be going to university to study to be a paramedic but he never went in the end. He also had no friends of his own that he spent any time with. We did have mutual friends we met at the same Christian children’s camp that I met him at. He wouldn’t meet up with any of them without me though. He had people at college and in the territory army he spoke about but he didn’t see any of them socially. I did sometimes wonder why because he wasn’t shy or introvert. I just thought he liked spending time with me.
I suspected he was cheating when he started spending time with the new young people at a pub he started working at. It turns out he was spending a little too much time with one of the young people. He denied it and lied about it and because I was so tired and sick from being in my 1st trimester I let it slide. I trusted him that he was just trying to make some friends and that he wouldn’t do something like that to his pregnant wife and family. Alas I was very wrong about that and about him in general,
They never really say they are sorry. If my feelings were hurt or I expressed how I felt about a situation it was always my fault. He never changed his behavior. No ownership for hurting the other person and of course no empathy.
I would also add procrastination to the list. You ask for something to be done….not the “honey do list” I fix 1/2 the shit anyway…but other things in your life that would just give you some peace and it is ALL ignored. They get around to it when it is too late or when they see fit. Just another mindfuck!
I could have written your post word for word. I am so glad he is gone.
Did you feel this straight away. I’m stuck between being so angry at him and really sad for what I thought I had.
Yes, especially on the procrastination!
In retrospect, it sure made the transition easy when he moved out. I already did everything around the house anyway, so there wasn’t anything new to learn. Having him out of the house simply made everything more efficient because I now can skip over the silly energy-draining step of pretending like he’s going to pitch in.
Oh, and if he DID help with something, it was with minimal effort. If he went grocery shopping, it was only for the items he needed, not for the entire grocery list. If he assembled a piece of furniture and happened to screw something in backwards, oh well! (That actually happened on our dining room table. He installed a supporting piece of wood backwards, so the unpainted part was exposed on the underside of the table. He didn’t want to fix it, so it stayed that way. Eventually, I painted it to match the rest of the table using some paint we already had on hand. Yep, me to the rescue to fix his mess.)
This was Kaa too. It would be an up hill fight to get him to do anything in the home that didn’t directly impact on him. Procrastination, resistantance, doing it badly then saying it didn’t matter.losing his temper while he was doing it. So when things needed fixing I tried to do it my self. I spent 22 years hoping he would start to engage. Then Told when he left that he didn’t feel needed.
OMG, yes! Mine had a temper, too, when he was actually doing something. I learned early on to steer clear of him during those times and just appreciate that he was doing SOMEthing.
And yes, too, on saying he didn’t feel needed. He said I wouldn’t “let” him do this or that.
Finding loopholes/bending rules.
Mr. Justification would always take advantage of return policies to get his money back when he really shouldn’t have. And would be charming with the employees until they told him no, then he turned into a flaming jerk.
This crept into every part of his life, this need to be at an advantage. He would push the limits of carry-on luggage to avoid fees, or overload the checked bags because “they just tell you 50 lbs”. He would wait until the last minute to leave, even while I was waiting and anxious about being late.
These things always made me deeply uncomfortable, but he would react to my discomfort by explaining all the reasons his approach and outlook made sense, or by dismissing my concerns as me being overly rigid or uptight.
This rings so true. It’s about entitlement and the pleasure of pulling something off. Mine had it in spades.
Yes, here too, always a shortcut and getting away with things and LOTS of grey areas: just loose boundaries and ethics really. He told me often that I needed to loosen up. I see now this was because on some level he was always requiring me to comprise my principles.
“I see now this was because on some level he was always requiring me to comprise my principles.”
SO MUCH THIS, neverwouldhaveimagined. I was the same.
The loose boundaries, the lack of ethics. I remember very early in our marriage, we went to get groceries and after we loaded up the car, he went and grabbed two bags of water softener salt. He had NOT paid for them in the store – he outright STOLE them. I was absolutely horrified. And then he acted like I was the prissy one for telling him it was wrong!
Unbelievable.
The Fucktard ex stole a Christmas Tree, swapped price tags while shopping, cheated on his taxes, and so, so much more. None of that behavior was on display in the beginning. It was probably an excruciating demonstration of restraint.
I don’t think I saw any of that until I married him, either. But my memory isn’t so reliable any more. I have forgotten – or blocked – SO MUCH of what went on.
That is best. I remember being deeply disturbed. Why steal when you can afford to pay? It never occurred to me that it was a game to him.
My ex LOVED getting reactions out of people. In the grocery store, he used to put things in people’s carts when they weren’t looking. One time, he put a box of condoms in a grocery cart and then watched when they went to check out. He thought it was hilarious.
He loved getting reactions out of me, too, and would do the narc trait of insulting me through “jokes” then tell me, “Oh, lighten up.”
Yes, kc, so passive/aggressive! He would joke when I was sick and tell our kids we needed to look for a new mommy to replace the old one. Lots of comments like that. Not funny.
11. He was dishonest in other aspects of his life.
He told lies or lied by omission to avoid conflict or get what he wanted. What I learned from this is that dishonesty doesn’t exist in a vaccum. If he would cheat his taxes why not cheat on me?
THIS!!!!
To the person using my moniker, I have been here posting with “It Is What It Is” for many years now. Perhaps you didn’t realize it had already been used. Could you consider a new name so we can avoid confusion?
Mine lies just to lie. He loves it, it’s his favorite hobby. Even when the truth is perfectly acceptable he will lie.
His mother told me he was a liar as a kid but I thought “oh he’s just playing pranks.” But no, he really, really LOVES to lie. Of course he lies to get out of trouble and avoid conflict too. He makes promises he doesn’t intend on keeping/LIAR. He broke all of his marriage vows/LIAR.
He says he loves me more than anything/LIAR.
Still Here… it is not your responsibility to make sure your kids “get it” when you walk out. How do you know they aren’t living the same pretense as you and silently asking themselves “why won’t mom leave, Dad’s a cheating fuckwit and is becoming abusive to her”? Or, will they get it when you come back from your annual check-up and find out you have HPV or Herpes or any flavor of STD?
I understand the need to spackle – we all do here at Chump Nation. 30 years is a lot of sunk costs. And guess what, he could be hiding assets right now and leave you tomorrow and not give a fuck about what your kids think.
He has already shown you he can LIE TO YOUR FACE. What more do you need to know?
We’re here – keep coming back… but how about for shits and giggles you go see a lawyer?
XOXO
Yes to all of the above except the gift giving. Although they were not always things that I wanted they were always super expensive. He was and is very occupied with looking like he has money. I mean, this is a guy who right after our divorce was finalized leased a big Mercedes then went bankrupt!
In the beginning of my 10 years with my cluster b substance abuser, he was constantly bringing me home gifts of perfume, clothing, jewelry, but asking me to help fix his credit that he ruined “back when he was a cocaine addict”. I thought it was sweet but was always trying to let him know that not only did he not have to do that to woo me, but that it’s not me anyway. I just am not materialistic like that. I chocked it up to his European/loving a luxury brand thing that I noticed while living overseas (not to offend any euro chumps out there;) …spackle, spackle, spackle.
Later on in the relationship (after 6 months) there was a lot of shopping for presents for his family that I always ended up paying for on our “mutual credit card” (i added his name to mine) AND he was very pointed about what he wanted for gifts in return (always very expensive) which made me uncomfortable, especially since he made more money than me.
Once we married the money situation got very unbalanced and I was the responsible bill payer while he went on golf trips and had shopping sprees for himself and our daughter. BUT, every once in a while he would buy me outrageously expensive things. For my 40th, he sat me down and explained that he had got himself into a bit of cc debt so he withdrew 20 grand from his retirement account in the form of a loan (!!!!) He informed me that he had 6 grand left and either wanted to get me a treadmill or a fancy watch. I expressed my feelings about the secret cc debt and the loan (!!!!) (which he said he would never do again…lie) and then said, well, how about using that 6grand to help with our joint debt (my credit card which had his name on it that always was used for bills I couldn’t afford like his sky high auto Insurance and upkeep of all his big obnoxious SUV’s that he always needed to drive). He refused and bought me both the treadmill and the watch with that money. The scary thing is he told EVERYONE what he got his wife for her birthday. I was so embarrassed about the back story that I kept up the appearance of his “generosity”. I am so mad at myself for doing that. Never again!
You mentioned that you weren’t materialistic but he was. It was the same dynamic for me and my STBX. Though, admittedly, my STBX didn’t care about looking generous … he wanted it all for himself. Even my birthday presents were bought only because they were things he wanted.
Though, since the implosion, I’ve realized that he actually hates me (in part) for not being more materialistic like he is. I doubt I’ll ever fully wrap my head around that.
I feel exactly the same. Also, the presents to me made me like an accomplice and he knew it and resented me for being a “goody two shoes” and a “rule follower”. Blech. Good riddance to them both!
The “accomplice!” Oh my goodness, yes.
Thank you for framing it that way … It’s like my brain hadn’t quite put that piece of the puzzle in place yet.
This one is a strange one, but it always bugged me. Whenever a nonprofit commercial for starving / abused animals came on, my STBX refused to watch (would often turn the channel). He made quite a big deal out of it. But, when a starving / abused CHILD commercial came on, my STBX had no problem with it. Never batted an eye. Empathy for animals, but not humans? Again, strange.
Also, once when we were getting gas, I noticed an old man in tattered clothes digging through the garbage looking for food. My heart broke. I turned to tell my STBX we should get him a hot dog or something, and for a tiny second … I swear, there was a look of disgust on his face while he was looking at the old man. It bothered me enough that I grabbed my purse and started to get out, saying, “I can’t stand to watch another human having to do that. I’m going to buy him some food.” Suddenly, STBX stopped me, “Oh, you’re right. That’s just awful. Let me take care of it.” And, he got out, spoke to the guy and took him into the gas station to buy him a meal.
There is not one charitable bone in my STBX’s body … so, all I can think is that he did it to appear like some kind of hero. Such a jackass.
Oh my! Mine was like that too!!!
Mine spent most weekends endlessly watching b&w war retells of the holocaust . It seemed much more of a morbid fascination than just watching an informative program. He knew i hated seeing those images but seemed to enjoy my discomfort in having to be in the same room (kitchen was in living area).
“Mine spent most weekends endlessly watching b&w war retells of the holocaust .”
Oh my.
That is one of my ‘morbid fascinations’ too.
It’s part of the history of WWII and we all have our different preferences of t.v. shows to watch.
Since the X was into Mad Men and James Bond, I would retreat to my quiet computer with ear buds and watch my own war movies and biographies. I hate to interfere with somebody else’s space.
But, his schtick was he refused to use earphones while watching a huge-screen t.v. whose sound system absolutely shook the house. Whether I was quietly watching my own movie or reading a book, or even trying to sleep. His b/s movies bored me to tears.
Is it too much to ask for private space from ‘household tv’?
Argh … I should add that the commercials about the starving/abused animals bother me too (animals hold a special place in my heart). My problem with STBX is that he obviously had some kind of empathy, just none of it was spent on humans. I’m not sure this was clear in my post above. Sorry if I left any doubt there.
My XH thinks he is the dog whisperer. We had two dogs-one he brought to live in my apartment. He had convinced me he should move in after pointing out we were basically engaged (another red flag after 6 weeks that I used a lot of spackle to make ok in my mind;)
I walked his adorable dog, found and paid for a vet (she was older and had big bills), fixed her barking problem the right way (more exercise) and paid for all of her upkeep and care. I did the same when we got a puppy (wow, that was a lot of work!!)
He would occasionally yell at them/”be the leader of the pack” as he would like to put it and enjoy all the tail wagging and kissing the dogs gave him when he got home. He actually bragged that they “loved” him more and he “loved” them more than any person. He NEVER did the heavy lifting. I think, subconsciously, what he really loved is that he could be a total asshole to the dogs and they would still come running to him wagging their tail and “loving” him.
I think his relationships are so disappointing to him because he doesn’t get that unconditional love that he got from them even when he is a complete nasty bastard. Total narc brain/King Baby brain. No empathy but “Need kibbles now!!!!”
These discussions spark so many revelations for me! Thank you so much for this post. I had completely overlooked the fact that my STBX was like that with our dog.
He wanted a dog and I didn’t (our lives were really hectic at that point) … I caved after he got the kids in on the “please, please can we get a puppy.” He swore he would be responsible for taking care of it. So, we get a puppy.
Within a few months, I was the one taking care of the little guy. STBX loved the attention and tail-wagging (oh my … this is quite the double entendre!).
But, once I caught him kick toward the dog (thankfully, he didn’t connect) — because he was annoyed by the dog at that moment. Turns out, he didn’t think I would see that bit of dick behavior. Of course, I threw a fit on him about it … he gave me the pitiful “so sorry” routine … and was extra nice to the dog (in my presence) after that. And, of course, the dog still loved him.
So, comparing stories — I think your theory about unconditional “kibbles” and failed relationships makes a lot of sense.
P.S. I kept the dog when we split.
Me too;)
I was thinking about this at work the last couple hours…I feel like I was much like our dog in the beginning and middle of the relationship….always smiling and “tail wagging” even though he “made mistakes”. Mrs. Fixit. And then I wasn’t.
Everything you listed plus:
-they will show their abusive, mean and hateful personality in ways that will make you feel uneasy but they can mask as “normal”. Such as, absessively bitching about someone, spreading nasty rumors about innocent people and making them the brunt of their jokes and shaming them openly in very public spaces, physically fighting (especially after drinking) with anyone whether they are arguing or not, etc. Once you start seeing this side of them and don’t leave them for it, they start feeling more comfortable to do it more around you and you can typically start seeing a cycle. Note to self — they will start arguing with you about simple little things. This is more than to get their kicks off. They are testing, conditioning and grooming you for more abuse.
– they lie and give you sob stories to see if you will listen and give them sympathy and empathy because they know if you’re empathetic they can take you for a ride. Like the old saying goes “Givers give and Takers take”. Takers (aka: Cheaters/Narcs) seek out Givers to exploit them. If you don’t have boundaries or are uncomfortable with them and assertive people, read the book “Boundaries” and get some. Don’t give out your empathy readily to people you don’t know very well, who are vague or seem to good to be true.
– they make you feel guilty for spending time with your friends and grooming you to only want to be with them (part of the isolation process). They want to be the center of your world but you’re not the center of theirs — period!
– if they make excuses and don’t spend money on EVERY SINGLE DATE they ASK YOU on (especially big dates like to the fair, an expensive dinner, to a broadway show, etc.) this is a MAJOR red flag. Make sure you let that sink in CN!!!!!! Every date they ask you on they should be paying for soup to nuts ……especially expensive ones.
Bless this post. My ex also displayed every single one of these red flags. Eeeeeesh, I cringe now just looking at ’em. Most of these are about the same as all of yours, but it is fun sharing all the wacky gifts. Every year my ex would load me up at Christmas with a bunch of hair ties and lip glosses — drugstore stuff that you buy for yourself when you need to, which kind of defeats the purpose of gift-giving. But those weren’t too weird; at least they were things I would eventually use. There were of course all the trips or dinners that were mostly for himself, and places he specifically wanted to go. And the gold jewelry box for a person who just plain doesn’t wear gold, EVER. And the Christmas before D-Day, he went out of town (driving many hours in each direction — wonder what else he could have been doing while on that trip, sigh) to have tintypes made. Of himself. Yes, on Christmas morning he presented me with several framed, old-timey tintypes of himself that cost hundreds of dollars. They were indeed well-made, but like….a bunch of framed pictures of yourself? That’s a textbook bad gift. I remember him proudly bragging about paying extra for the super fancy archival glass, you know, so that I could keep them forever as a family heirloom. Lawd I chucked those things out so fast after he left, it wasn’t even funny.
A note on my chumpiness: With every single one of these bad gifts, I smiled hugely and said “Omg I love it!” and made a big deal out of what a great present it was. “It’s the thought that counts,” I thought. Except. There clearly wasn’t any thought put in toward anyone but himself.
Holy cow … the framed pictures of himself! Just when I think I’ve heard (and seen) it all — wow!
I hope your future is filled with loving and thoughtful gifts from friends and family.
So far, it has been.
I was a hundred times happier with a simple headband that a friend brought back for me from a boutique in Paris than I ever was with any of his more “extravagant” gifts — because she clearly picked it out just for me. I’m also overjoyed with the fact that my new husband actually (gasp) does the chores I’ve asked him to do rather than trying to cover months-long-neglected-tasks by bringing flowers (another of my ex’s hallmarks). 
“A note on my chumpiness: With every single one of these bad gifts, I smiled hugely and said “Omg I love it!” and made a big deal out of what a great present it was. “It’s the thought that counts,” I thought. Except. There clearly wasn’t any thought put in toward anyone but himself.”
I was the exact same. I made a show of loving the crap gifts and saying, “Thank you!” and all that crap.
I bet a lot of people on this site did the same. Sigh…it’s in our nature as chumps.
Mine also had the piercing “reptilian stare” when he targeted me (and later the dead “shark eyes” during the discard/discovery). This is common in psychopaths and sociopaths, but I did not know about such things.
Adding from Tracy’s list, lovebombing (major romancing, said I love you immediately, declined a job in another country for me even though we just started dating), way too needy (isolating me from family and friends), vague past, tons of sex, no friends, poor gift giving. Once he gave me the same anniversary card two years in a row!
That uncomfortable feeling in my gut was my brain putting all these pieces together that didn’t quite add up, but my warning system had been dulled by my disordered mother and I just didn’t see the signs.
“Mine also had the piercing “reptilian stare” when he targeted me (and later the dead “shark eyes” during the discard/discovery).”
I remember the reptilian stare I got from douchebag ex when we were on a date one night. I remember thinking how creepy it was that he was staring at me like that, like I was his possession or his prey (both!). RED FLAG. Yet I dismissed it.
I also got the dead “shark eyes” during the discard/discovery, too.
Now I shudder when I think back on what he did. I was such a chump. But I was so, so young and desperate for attention from a man because my own father was so distant. Never gave me hugs or told me he loved me, etc., so I was ripe for the picking.
It’s a BIG red flag. I glossed right over it, too. I remember thinking “creepy” but did I run away? Nope. I married him.
The discard stare was the worst it was like the person who I’d been living with for the past 25 years had been body snached. But in a horrific split second all the gut feelings and ‘off’ behaviours i had struggled with through the years made sense. This was what he was really like. The analogy to the mask coming off is the only way to describe it. Unfortunately you need to have been through it to get it.
Many of mine are already listed. Here are a few more.
– Not divorced “yet” or has a pick-me dancing “ex” still hooked on
– Porn focus (Some would call me “not sex positive” on this, but I think a focus on porn causes loads of problems that make healthy relating difficult, and some smart researchers agree with me)
– Wants to stay in close touch with any ex(es) (Some would disagree, but I think this is concerning, from experience)
– Substantially greater interest in visiting with children than with other adults
– Claims to be “broke” but comes up with money when it suits his/her own desires
– Won’t communicate openly and transparently unless it’s a “woe is me” story
– Uses intangible spiritual concepts to appear more enlightened than you in ways that allow him/her to accountability for real-world behavior
– Pushes for anything sexual that doesn’t make you feel positive and happy
– Thinks things that are ok for him/her to do aren’t ok for you to do
– Shows little – or far too much – concern when your feelings are hurt
– Acts out physically when angry or tells stories about doing so with a smug air of superiority
– Poor impulse control and/or binging behaviors
– Incongruent behaviors and/or shapeshifting based on who is present at the time
– Idolizes people who cheat/decieve/harm for any reason while waving away the person’s character issue as if it doesn’t matter, citing the thing that makes the person great is great and the bad behavior isn’t relevant, not his/her business, “two sides to every story”, etc.
– Treats you parentally or act like s/he can’t self parent
There’s a good start.
On a more personal note, though many would disagree, after my divorce, I always insisted on going somewhere mid-range or modest and paying dutch anytime I dated (which was rare). I wanted to set a level playing field.
Some men were clearly insulted. Some seemed relieved. Some seemed bemused, but accepted it. Only a few said, “OK” and took it in stride. Guess who caught my attention?
I do understand why many women who date men feel the man should pay, and I think that’s ok if that’s important to you. Everyone gets to choose his or her own boundaries. For me, money had consistently been a tool for power in relationships, so I wanted to take that out of the equation. Seeing the number of men who openly (and even sometimes aggressively) balked at my boundary was quite an education.
I like an equal balance of power in any relationship. I used to think it shouldn’t matter, but it becomes clear that power plays in to all relationships in subtle ways if you get to looking. I look for mutuality and equivalency, not by counting favors, but by feeling for the intuitive feeling that we’re balanced… that the see saw is a fun ride and nobody is getting stuck at the top… that trust is built on a series of times that we both show up and help out. Once the trust is in place, THEN it becomes reasonable to move beyond surface issues like who pays for dinner, but the trust building has to happen first. I learned that painfully.
I love this comment Amiisfree. I also like balance and see money as one place that balance can be negotiated.
In retrospect I now realize how this preference for financial equality was used both to bait me and entrap me. We went from taking turns picking up the tab to my picking up his car payment because he had school loans and I didn’t, so my helping finance his life was “fair.”
I was so concerned about practicing what I preached (i.e. being equitable about finances) that I was vulnerable to being seen as a “taker” in some sense. So, I got taken instead! Fifteen years on, I was the only one working, and I now completely support myself, the kids (and pay him some alimony). Yep. I sure can see that red flag waving now!
Among competent adults, financial independence should be expected–one person may have more money than another, but a willingness to take advantage of that is not a sign to ignore!
Yep! These jerks take a reasonable principle and twist it until you are accepting totally unreasonable things. When I finally went back on the dating market I watched carefully. I ended up finally with a very good man whose reaction to me offering to pay was “Well, okay if it’s important to you, but I don’t think it’s really fair because you are a single mom and you are already having to pay a babysitter just to be here.” I knew he was it. My ex had done a lot of shitty things in the name of “equality” and yet never ever considered fairness. This is rife in military cheaters and as an academic I saw a lot of it in fellow academics.
Yes! All of ^^^^those^^^^
My cheater was actually pretty sweet with gifts. He made them for me. Nothing spectacular, but sentimental and unique. Most notable were a pair of amethyst earrings after we lost our son. He also made me a lovely carbon steel knife with a bone handle. I really liked that.
I gave those back to him along with all the other shit he gave me…cards, letters from when he was deployed, Falcon field guides ( we were big on outdoors and hunting and stuff.) a braided horse hair bracelet, a couple of small purses he made out of deer hide he tanned…
He was very self-sacrificing. Never seemed to take anything for himself, never over-spent, etc.
But he held grudges. He held against me every single thing I ever did to offend him…he never told me at the time of the offense, just tucked it away, and I realized just this week, that all that “self-sacrifice” wasn’t love at all, but a long laundry list of reasons to justify the behavior he felt entitled to. He was wonderful to me, after all, and I offended him, not having a clue, because he’d very rarely call me on it, and when he did and I corrected it, it was still held against me.
When we split last summer, he used 2 e-mails I had written him in 2011 and 2012, in an effort to try and find a way to communicate (those were the only 2 he had, because I quit, realizing how ineffective it was.)
I brought 5 kids to our marriage, and a couple of them were fairly bone-headed as teenagers. They are adults now, but after they offended him with their teen aged ways, he’d have nothing to do with them.
He was unforgiving. He sulked. There was never any give or take in terms of working out problems. He didn’t like to “argue” and sure as shit didn’t like me to disagree with him.
But I would have to say the biggest red flag was when he stood in our living room, looked me in the eye and told me that if I didn’t put out more, he would look elsewhere. I was having some real issues with menopause and past abuse of my first husband and I was really struggling. He made it all my responsibility instead of an issue he would help me with. I should have dumped his ass right then and there. Really. How dare he say that to me and why in the hell did I think it was my sole responsibility to make him happy?
Sigh.
You spoke about how he held every little (perceived!) offense against you, but you didn’t have a clue at the time because he didn’t mention that he had been offended in any way at the time it happened.
I wonder if this is part of the Cheater Playbook? Or more severely disordered?
My STBX did this in spades. I didn’t find out about any of these offenses until the implosion when I discovered decades of cheating and other vile activities. He quite seriously sees each of his actions as revenge for something I did (or he THINKS I did, but actually didn’t — or it wasn’t even an offense to begin with.). For example, one of his excuses is that I didn’t make more money. I had gotten a degree, so I should be making his life easier with more money (he bashed my chosen major for this reason).
Well, I think that can be filed under blameshifting, right? A little DARVO thrown in too;)
I am so grateful to this site and my therapist, the great books out there and my friends for getting through my decade with my XH. I really was clueless about what was going on until the aftermath of DDay.
Ah, that makes sense. This is why “trusting he sucks” is so important for me right now … I really know he does — intellectually. But, because I just can’t comprehend (literally — this shit makes no sense!) thinking via blameshifting and DARVO, I overlook so much.
Like you, I was clueless during my marriage (two decades+). Regretfully, I still feel like I’m in the beginner stages of understanding the how’s and why’s of the destruction and the how’s of staying safe while extricating myself and my kids …
But, with this site, the wonderful support of the CN, and my therapist, I WILL get there.
It’s part of the narcissism. Nothing is ever their fault, so it has to be yours. X was also the master of grudges, and could cut people out of his life in an instant. Woe be unto anyone who challenged his mastery or authority. That person ceased to exist for him. Again. part and parcel of their lack of genuine emotion or empathy.
It’s so unbelievably cruel to think and act that way — especially when the other person values integrity and, thus, takes accountability for each perceived offense. I shouldered the blame for so much … Damn, I really let him get inside of my head over the years.
Therapy in two days! Gonna need it.
Yep, every single box ticked here too! Also, all the lies at the beginning of the relationship (like his actual age – he even told me his much-older sister was his mother at first, can’t believe I fell for that one!). These were excused away by “I didn’t think you would go out with me, and I loved you so much” (excuse me while I throw up). Lovebombing doesn’t cover it – he stalked me, and was insanely jealous and possessive.
Added to that his “horrible” ex girlfriend, who it turns out is a lovely woman, just with more sense than me, as she dumped him. He was living in her flat rent-free while it was on the market (he was at college), he then rented a flat himself for a few months when her flat sold, but ended up skint – he was only too grateful to move into my parents house when we conveniently got engaged. So many red flags, and they continued.
Still, at least he’s mooching off some other poor sap and her family now. She earns less than half of what I do though, so no shiny new iPhone for shit head this year – shame. ?
The things we see in retrospect. I pre-arranged all my birthday, mother’s day, anniversary, you-name-it gifts. Thought he was just bad at gift giving and this way I wouldn’t be disappointed. I believe we call that spackle, correct?
They are bad at gift-giving because it requires them to think about what someone else might like, wan,or enjoy. They lack the capacity and frankly, the desire to consider anyone other than themselves. It is a central part of the narcissistic personality. This one is a biggie!
75% of CL’s list. 1st boyfriend I ever had❗️Love bombing, mailing letters everyday talking about getting marry. I was moving back to our country of origin he just met me 3 months ago and decided to move, too ❤️ (aha! redflag) .
Before I met his parents a 28 yrs old man/child told me that they used to live better in a nice subdivision but his dad lost his job & lost everything and because of that he was living in a poor neighborhood & I believed him. The 1st time I met his mom she mentioned they were living there since he was 2 yrs old. When I asked back then Mr. Fantastic/too good to be true boyfriend he told me he was “joking” ❓❗️(RED FLAG : lying )
PORN, porn, and more porn. Always catching him doing porn or watching sleazy movies online. Then, he would mimic everything that had titillated him in our bed as if he were a porn star which made me feel disconnected and used. The moment that he was “finished”, he jump up like he had been stung by a wasp and rush into the bathroom to wash the cooties off…making me feel like I were dirty and contaminated.
The comments he would make regarding another woman’s appearance. Always something sexually related…never about a woman’s character or intelligence or personality.
When I met his 18yr old daughter, I was strangely uncomfortable. Over the course of our dating period, she HAD to be central and always drove the conversations to be solely about her as if she were auditioning and vying for his attention…and the conversations always ended up being sexually charged and provocative which made me even more uncomfortable. X always wanted to have sex with me later after spending time with HER. During the first year of our marriage, I found out that he had tried to have sex with her when she was 17 (which caused the end of his first marriage). She NEVER visited at our home…always showed up in the back room at his store so I could not be a part of their relationship. They spoke together on cell phones AFTER I went to bed at night so that I could not be privy to any of their conversations. I’d hear them talking, and then when he finally came to bed in the wee hours of the morning, he’d wake me up to have sex. This was THE biggest red flag…that I had entangled myself with a lascivious pervert and womanizer.
I’m so sorry, Sweetz! What a pig. That father daughter thing is soooo creepy, and I had that same issue with my Narc father. He was always leering at me, even when he was close to 90! I just chalk it it up to his deep mental problems, but boy, I would have loved to have had a normal relationship with him, but he wrecked that! I just had to rise above it, and now he’s gone, so I forgive him.
At least you had the decency to be creeped out. His daughter lapped his sexual attention up like her life depended on it. BTW, he is 64yrs old…he will never change and good riddance to BOTH of them.
His daughter is a victim of sexual abuse and cannot really be held accountable at this point, despite being 18 and legally an adult. She’s been raised to think this kind of relationship, with her DAD is normal.
She’s so much worse off than you are. You can walk away.
Yeah…I used to think that too and felt sorry for her for awhile. But now he is 64 and she is now 31…they are STILL doing the same. He groomed her since her youth, but she is no longer a baby and she KNOWS how men are. I did have a private conversation about how inappropriate all of this was and how uncomfortable it makes a wife feel. She just thinks I was jealous and hated me even more for trying to make her understand and went even deeper underground with him. I pity the next woman who comes along and has to deal with that dynamic. And yes, she is much worse off than I was. God help her.
Well that’s different then. I thought she was NOW 18.
At 31 one ought to have enough time under them to get it partially figured out.
**shudder**
I guess as intelligent as she was vs as intelligent as I was as a sexually abused child, ONE of us “got it”. It is not really a matter of intelligence…it is a matter of wisdom, perception and intuition that “something is wrong” simply from having to hide it from everyone. Even a child knows that.
Most people cannot bear to think that their close friend would have an affair with their spouse…that level of betrayal hits HARD as a double whammy. But can you imagine an affair being in the works between a father and his grown daughter? He did not even make his bold “move” on her until she was nearly an adult already. She excused him by telling me “well, he is a man after all, and he certainly cant help who he is attracted to”. How then, can you dare ask or expect them to sever their “natural” blood relationship w/o at least ONE of them having the insight and willingness to know that they should? At least, if it was a small child and this came to light, you could call CPS and the father goes to jail. This is a triangle of the most insidious proportions, and the ONLY remedy is to get the hell OUT of it and let them have their perpetual love fest. I hung in there for TEN years hoping to be on hand for her in the event that she wanted to reach out since she knew that I knew. Just. Couldn’t. Do. It. Anymore.
I was also a victim of sexual abuse by my dad and grandfather since I was a child btw. I did not go on to keep a relationship on ANY level with either of them the moment I could move out of the house at 18yrs old. By the time I was a teen, I clearly saw the evil perpetrated by both of them for what it was…I did not need anyone to spell it out for me or try to get me to understand that I should keep my distance. So I don’t buy that once a victim, always a victim. She loves this attention as much as her dad loves giving it…and at her age of 31 and all the men she has been with over the years, she certainly KNOWS how destructive it has been…both to her own mother, as well as to me.
Oh and one more thought, then I will leave it: If by your logic Sunflower, ANY woman who has been sexually abused as a child or sexually groomed is still an innocent victim later after they become adults? For HOW LONG? So then, is that a good enough reason to look the other way when such a woman is messing with YOUR husband? Should she get a pass just because she believes that this behavior is “normal”? Even though she played a part in destroying TWO marriages, one being that of her own two parents? Um…NO. She is 31yrs old now, and NO marriage can survive this kind of dynamic when SHE wont stop playing with and feeding the monster that is operating in her own dad. She needs serious help to get herself OUT of this relationship, and until she sees that and wants it for herself, she will continue to enjoy her EA (PA?) with her dad and destroy even more. She loves the POWER.
Yeah, see above.
And, I will add that when you have a young woman (18…arguably fully developed in mind) that her father has groomed and who has never been or had an opportunity to be out from under his thumb, that’s a whole ‘nother dynamic that enters a fucked up realm that is BEYOND cheating.
But she’s not 18…she’s 31. I had no way of knowing that when you first posted.
Omg same …always jumped up after sex like he was on fire. I used to koke about the line…leave $50 on the table… now it sounds like i felt at the time. Sub concious always trumps .
YES! The moving fast part especially. I knew him a WEEK and he proposed to me. I was young and dumb – only 24 – and I’d never had a man treat me in such a way, lavishing me with attention, being extra romantic. I accepted the proposal but my gut told me, “Wait, something is wrong. He doesn’t even know me!” We got married six months later. And my gut was still telling me it wasn’t the best decision, but I’d been spackling so much that I was delusional.
Gift giving – sometimes he got it right, but more often than not, he was horrible. Last Christmas, he gave me three coffee mugs (I don’t even drink coffee!) and some baskets. Uh…what? I was crushed because I had spent a lot of time on his gifts and he acted like he could care less. In hindsight, I wonder if that’s because he was already engaged in his affair with the whore. One Christmas he got me a pair of shoes from Walmart. They were SO ugly.
Of course, his pattern hasn’t changed. He loved bombed the whore and they are already engaged.
More red flags: his drinking, his outrageous behavior, his temper tantrums. One evening we had my parents over and his mother (who divorced his narc dad a few years prior). He acted like a complete jerk the whole evening. My mom later told me that while they were driving home, she was incredibly upset because she didn’t want me to marry him. His mom told my mom that he was just like his dad. That should have been a HUGE red flag as his dad was a certified ass.
So, so SO many red flags.
But thanks to CL and CN, I now know what to look for. Thank God!
We moved too fast as well! A month after dating he proposed, I said no. He pushed the issue, love bombed me to the hilt & I gave in. Six months later we were married. He used to dog on his ex-girlfriend & how she used to cheat on him & how he would never cheat on me. This same ex-girlfriend aborted his baby & that was the major reason why they broke up. 2 years into our marriage, I am six months pregnant & guess who he cheats on me with? Yep…HER. There were several other women throughout the years, but she was back in the picture in October 2015. This time she was married with 2 kids under the age of 10. They were high school sweethearts & going to divorce their spouses & rekindle their TWU LUV…puhleeze! Her husband & I had a heart-to-heart chat the day after my divorce was final. He only knew of this go ’round…he had no idea of their past nor her abortion. Funny thing is, my XH isn’t even with her anymore. He’s moved in with The Embezzling Whore. Go figure…
As far as gifts? I HATE the scent of anything sweet pea. The first time he bought me a pre-made gift set of sweet pea lotions & bath products for Christmas from some bath & body store was after I had found out about OW #2. He bought me the EXACT SAME gift set for Christmas 2015 and asked my daughter to wrap it. She told him to take it back & buy me something else because I hated that scent. He was clueless & thought that because he’d bought it for me before, I would like it again. She informed him that I hated it the 1st time he bought it & I would damn sure hate it this time. Other than the divorce, it was the last thing he ever gave me (but, at least it wasn’t an STD, thank God)…dickhead.
“He used to dog on his ex-girlfriend & how she used to cheat on him & how he would never cheat on me.”
Mine did the SAME THING about his ex-wife, said she’d cheated on him, and swore he would never cheat on me. His famous words? “If I was cheating on you, I’d have the balls to tell you.” GUESS WHO DIDN’T HAVE THE BALLS???
I contacted the first ex-wife last weekend. Wow. That was definitely an eye-opener. Not only had he cheated on her several times, but she wasn’t nearly the horrible person douchebag ex made her out to be.
Of course they don’t have the balls…cowardly cake-eaters!! I kinda hope his ex-girlfriend burns in HELL along with him. That bitch was STALKING me when I was pregnant & I didn’t even know it. He laughed in my face about it. I actually called her & told her she was lucky I was pregnant or I would have already whipped her ass. Didn’t stop her from hooking up with him some 18 years later. If I ever aw her again & was guaranteed I wouldn’t go to jail, I would sooooooo slap-a ho!
If I *ever* see the whore, I will not be responsible for my actions.
Is anyone watching The Bachelorette? Rachel is going to pick the charming guy with no substance, Bryan. This guy actually said that he thought of her as his gf from Day 1! WTF??
These ladies always go for the sparkles. I remember Andi did the same with Josh and then wrote a book about his abuse!
There was no intamacy; it was always about passion to him meaning the infatuation stage. He’d recreate it in our relationship repeatedly.
He was passive aggressive, always.
I was always disappointed. He used it as control. I’d anticipate and the ground always shifeted.
I could never figure out want he wanted and set my own goals. Whatever I achieved he’d sabotage. I was always losing something.
He thought he deserved to live in a life past our means yet had no motivation to achieve his ever changing goals.
He used intermittent reinforcers to reestablish control. My needs became nonexistent.
He controlled the narrative and rather than communicate his thoughts he’d say my mother thinks..
Gifts were nonexistent. A cheap bunch of flowers and a card professing his future with me by his side.
In the end he got exactly what he deserved a small dick and a whore to provide blow jobs. Old narcs settle for the bottom of the dumpster.
Don’t wait. Leave a cheater; gain a life.
tick, tick, tick.
This should be given to every teenage girl.
My wasband gave me a coffee mug for Valentines Day one year.
I don’t drink coffee.
Ha – I got a seashell toilet seat from Harrods in England! Beat that!
Of course, it doesn’t fit the American toilets but he put it on anyway.
He gave me a bottle of his favorite vodka for my 60th birthday. Unwrapped, of course!
There were certain occasions where he was amazing at gift giving. The gifts were thoughtful and exactly what I wanted. BUT when he was buying these incredibly thoughtful gifts, he ALWAYS involved the help of one of my attractive friends. He would ask them to go with him to shop or he would need them store the gift at their house or ask them to hold onto it for him. One time when I was out of town he called my friend so they could have lunch and discusss my anniversary gift! Because he needed ideas of course! Another time he had to store the gift at my friend’s house, a single mother who lived 15 minutes away when his own best friend lived a few house away from us. He never gave me a thoughtful gift without an audience. Looking back I realize it was always a show for other people – what a chump I was to think he actually wanted to show me he loved me.
“He never gave me a thoughtful gift without an audience.” Bingo!
My EX did do some nice things for me while we were dating, and then I was expected to tell everyone who would listen about them for months. I am a fairly private person, so the expectation that I brag about a gift or gesture to people who weren’t there or weren’t close friends was always awkward. One of the red flags I missed was how angry he got after our engagement; he wanted me to be more excited and talk more about it for weeks to absolutely everyone. He told me how ungrateful I was. Sheesh. I should have known that anyone who expected me to be grateful he’d proposed to me was a jerk. Marriage is supposed to be mutual–not hierarchical.
Later, as you say, he simply learned to manage the audience himself–he gave me things that he could brag about to other people or when other people could see him being a big spender (of money he wasn’t earning).
He would also never dream of donating anything anonymously. He hated it if I put a few bucks into a church collection basket. Dropping off groceries at the food bank was stupid in his opinion. But he’d happily give things away if he knew he’d be praised for it (though sometimes those things didn’t actually belong to him!) He’d engage homeless people in conversations and give them a few bucks if they seemed the type to praise him. It was never about philanthropy or kindness–it was all about ego!
My warning signs started out infrequent and subtle and gradually built over time. Until the last few years, the warming signs were interspersed with a lot of positives so it was easy to spackle and focus only on the good things until it wasn’t anymore. Here are some signs, listed in the order they appeared:
1. During our early dating years he told me about a girlfriend who visited him while he was abroad in England. He pressured her for sex and ordered cow brains in a restaurant to annoy her. I spackled because he said she had promised him sex in her letters and was annoying because she wanted to spend her time shopping and complained a lot.
2. He fell for those cute adorable little kittens too but didn’t like them once they became cats, didn’t dote on him and they shed so his suits weren’t always spotless (image).
3. He wanted to have sex in awkward positions that were painful for me.
4. I had always shared everything with him. During the early years of our relationship and marriage I was the one who had money. I made him an equal partner in how that money got spent. As such, it was disturbing to me that when he got his first big bonus after he started working for the bank and he didn’t think I should have any say In what we did with that money because “I earned it it’s mine”.
5. When I complained that he was out with friends on Friday night and didn’t invite me (I am certain these were his male work buddies and he wasn’t cheating yet) his response was “why don’t you go make your own friends, why should I have to do everything with you”. Then he diffused my anger by saying “I spend most of my time telling them how great you are”. Of course I fell for that, didn’t want to be not great by calling him out on his mistreatment of me.
6. He generally didn’t like to socialize or entertain because it was so much work having to impress people (image).
7. He seemed upset with me for having a miscarriage.
8. When I was eight months pregnant with our daughter I grabbed the side of the car and said “Geez” when he sped up towards the J-walker who had the nerve to cross the street a block or so in front of us. Because I had offended him he kicked me out of the car to walk the last five blocks to the grocery store. This was in July and it was hot and humid.
9. After daughter was born he tried to convince me that I should quit my job to be a stay at home mom. He implied that I couldn’t be a good mother otherwise. Luckily for me my mom was a career woman and I knew that was bullshit. I didn’t do it because I knew that if I did I would end up resenting him and the kids.
10. He was best man at the wedding of a friend he really didn’t like very much and was always disparaging to me. There were many similar examples of his fakeness over the years.
11. A few days before the birth of our first son when we knew I could go into labor at any moment, he said he wanted to go flying. When I suggested that might be a bad idea as I wouldn’t be able to reach him if I went into labor he said “ok, I’ll go as soon as the baby is born”. When I objected because I didn’t want to be left to deal with the baby and toddler alone and that shouldn’t he want to be with his new baby, he went off on how I was trying to prevent him from enjoying life.
12. When we moved across the country for his job, he picked out the new house (I saw it for 20 minutes before being asked to sign the papers) and then spent the next eight years complaining about said house)
13. When the youngest was a year old he had an emotional affair. During that time we had a tiff about something and he said I should be good to him because he had other options.
14. After the emotional affair it was constant criticism and complaints about everything I was doing wrong. I never got thanks for improvements I made because there was always something else to complain about including the things I really couldn’t help (poufy hair).
15. He trained for a half Marathon with a female coworker (I am sure they weren’t having an affair, but I am also sure he thought about it). This made me really uncomfortable in light of his previous EA.
16. He bought an airplane, then he quit his high paying job because it didn’t make him happy (but kept the airplane which cost ~$10,000-15,000/year to hanger and maintain plus more if you actually fly it). Then he complained that I didn’t make enough money after I had spent years working reduced hours and always putting his career and the kids first as the compromise for not completely quitting after daughter was born.
17. He started up e-mail conversations with an old female friend who complimented him on his beautiful writing style. He used to write me letters like that once “sigh”.
18. He wasn’t happy where he lived so I got a job half way across the country so he could live where he wanted. He still resented me when I finally insisted on something for myself and we bought the house near where I worked instead of a far flung suburb.
19. He spent less and less time at home. It took me a while to catch on as he had just started a new job as a flight instructor that did reasonably require odd hours.
20. He started having trouble climaxing during lovemaking even when he was the initiator.
21. The criticisms ramped up, he stopped doing anything to help out around the house or anything else, he stopped parenting and basically “went on strike” and I just kept picking up the slack.
22. He was doing new odd things during lovemaking and giving me odd requests that ran counter to previous requests.
23. He was only ever interested at times when he knew I was least likely to be interested (3am on a school/work day, five minutes before my morning alarm went off or before I had to leave for an appointment, etc).
24. It became harder to ignore the time away from home when he took those three hour dog walks, and would go to the gym after work at 9:00pm and come home at 2:00 am, go for flights during thunderstorms on this day off (instead of having Sunday brunch with his family), and would use the kids being annoying as an excuse to “go for a drive” and get away from the chaos because he just couldn’t take it.
25. He was always wanting to hang around with this couple I didn’t really like very much (especially the wife who I found arrogant and condescending).
26. He said we needed marriage counseling because we just weren’t communicating well and we had different priorities. “Yay! An opportunity to fix this”
27. I got a call from Schmoopie’s husband telling me about the affair (later found out that was the 2nd PA)
“When I was eight months pregnant with our daughter I grabbed the side of the car and said “Geez” when he sped up towards the J-walker who had the nerve to cross the street a block or so in front of us. Because I had offended him he kicked me out of the car to walk the last five blocks to the grocery store. This was in July and it was hot and humid.”
Chumpinrecovery, this is absolutely AWFUL. I’m so sorry you had to deal with that asshole.
I spackled because I was 8 months pregnant. The hormones must have been making me grumpy and that was affecting him.
Ex also kicked me out of the car when I was in my first trimester because I had a bodily reaction to his driving and asked him if he was okay. It was raining amd I had to walk miles to get home. Had I only packed up and left then, but I tried to explain why what he did was so hurtful. That was not a red flag. It was pure abuse.
What a marvelous illustration! I gather most of us longtime chumps could do the same exercise and while our incidents would vary, the result would be the same- full of many red flags that occur sporadically over time and individually can be explained ( Spackled away). We are like weavers, putting the cloth together thread by thread until we can finally step back and see the pattern.
Funny thing is, I have thought many times over the years about a conversation I had with one of a dorm mate’s boyfriend a couple months after I started dating Stbx. Mind you, I had only met her boyfriend a couple weeks before I met stbx. He pulled me aside and asked me about stbx and our relationship and I don’t even remember what I said but I am sure that I was spackling it and talking on. I finally shut up and he looked at me very matter of factly and said : “I think you could do better.” I don’t even remember his name but I remember his face and that statement has always stuck with me. Now I say why didn’t I listen and what did he see that no one else did? Maybe they did see but didn’t care enough to say. It is kind of haunting.
I litterally thought i wrote this list in my sleep…it could have been me. I have so many of these familiar echos of behavior i am wondering if there is a brain chip that makes them all speak the same language! ?
My ex lied to everyone. I realized right away that he would lie to his friends but then I caught him lying to his parents. It bothered me enough to think about it but then I told myself that as long as he was honest with me….. He was such a skilled liar that I couldn’t tell when he was lying. Eventually I noticed that he had a “tell”. When I would ask a question that he was going to lie in response he would always pause and say “huh?”. I told him about the “tell” and then every time I would ask a question he didn’t want to answer and he gave me that response “huh?”, I would just laugh and say – okay, now you are going to lie to me. It would just burn his ass. It gave me a lot of pleasure.
I was a chump, too, for thinking that my ex wouldn’t lie to me the way he lied to everyone else. I think he also told me that he wouldn’t lie to me. Man. All that spackling I did! He is a compulsive liar and sadly, one of his sons is the exact same way.
Mine didn’t lie outright, but he was a fake with others so I should have realized he was a fake with me too. Occasionally when he was drinking he would be honest. I thought that was when he wasn’t being himself. Stupid.
I am surprised yours didn’t figure out how to hide the tell after you told him. Lucky for you he isn’t that bright.
I’m not even sure what his tell was. He was so smooth and accomplished at it that it was plain scary. Pathological for sure.
Yes, they are so practiced at lying that it is difficult to tell.
Yes, Phoebe, practice makes perfect!
He was SO GOOD at lying, I didn’t even have a clue he lied to anyone and everyone until D-Day #1 (over a decade into our relationship). In fact, he had me believing that honesty was actually important to him. (I’m such a chump!)
Since then, I’ve found evidence of his lying to LOTS of people. It’s mind-boggling how frequently he lies, and how convincing he is.
It’s truly sick to be THAT good at being a liar.
Mine exaggerated…all…the…time….not an exaggeration. So did his mother.
I didn’t pay it much attention until his exaggerations were against me. I’ve come to realize that exaggeration is simply a form of lying that I shouldn’t have ever tolerated. And he always said there was something wrong with me because I needed to always “be right” when what it really was, was a need for truth.
This. This is what I’ve been grappling with. Witnessing all the lies, big and small, and somehow thinking I had immunity. What was wrong with me? I think someone mentioned being an accomplice – which I definitely feel like I was, despite him calling me a “do-gooder” and “Suzy” all the time because I couldn’t understand the need to lie ALL THE TIME ABOUT EVERYTHING – and that makes me sad.
PutAForkInMe, I feel the same. Why did I think I was any different, that he wouldn’t lie to me, that I had some special immunity? But I don’t think we can see these things because we are in it so deep.
Mine called me a do-gooder as well. I swear that toward the end that is why he became so mean. He hated that I was a nice person, made him feel worse about himself.
Wow – STBX aka Princess YogaPants hit pretty much all of these boxes bang on taking control of my life and deciding to move in with me after only a month or two. I should have been more suspicious that this charming, outgoing woman had only one single female friend.
What’s more scary is that while I was hurt and on the rebound from that, I found someone else online who hit them ALL. The love-bombing was particularly intense for several months. Fortunately she was a long distance away so it was all done via phone / email / text as she was “recovering” from husband #3. Lots of red flags waving around. Very intense interest in me, my life and how it sounded ideal to her. Lies and secrecy to those around her including keeping me a secret even from her therapist.
Fortunately about a month or so before we were to meet in person it all pretty much stopped. I think she found another, more accessible victim who was a bigger prize. There was one big bombing run (sung to the chorus of me me me me me) shortly before we met. Meeting her in person was a confirmation that she was not the kind, considerate person who thought older men who lived in small towns were super. What I had taken as joking put-downs about things I liked were in fact just put-downs and dismissing my interests as unimportant. Seeing how she treated other people in person was a big eye-opener too that I was actually watching for. Dinner and meeting was in fact had, most of which was her bar-tab. She also let slip that she had been cruising the bars for young guys the night before – probably because I was no longer the prize. We had dinner, most of which was her bar-tab, an awkward and “just friends” good-night and then I started writing her out of my life. The beautiful woman that she projected herself to be turned out to be a pale imitation who was not aging well and was chasing after her youth with younger and younger men. The reason for meeting for dinner? Free drinks, a (rather nice) birthday present and yes – a free ride to the airport where I put on the “sadz” and waved buh buy!
I dodged that bullet but need to be alert that I don’t get trapped again. They are soooo difficult to resist. I think I need to take this list and nail it to the bathroom wall and read it daily.
For me, I’m pretty healed but know myself to still be vulnerable. Still have a ways to go. I do worry that I’m now so gun-shy that I’ll see a narc everywhere.
Bow tie, congratulations on dodging that bullet. I think a lot of us fear “seeing narcs everywhere.” But I’d sure rather see them and avoid them, than get sucked into their toxic charm and lies. Hang in there. Remember that you have worth and deserve better.
his motto, “No good deed goes unpunished”.
10 plus beers 2-3X during the week and all that plus wine (whole bottle on his own) on weekend nights.
he never said sorry if he hurt my feelings or if I was upset (cheaters all seem to have this trait!), particularly about his drinking. It was always my fault for everything that was going wrong. And that I was a “prude” about his boozing.
No pictures of me in his office. Just our daughter (we had one at the time) by herself and him with her.
I always felt like an outsider when he was with his family or friends.
he called his mother more than he called me.
he was into porn.
he never asked how I was doing or if I needed anything when I was pregnant (both times) or working late at home to meet a deadline (stressful job).
he never showed any kind of compassion for anyone.
Never any show of affection either public or at home outside of sex.
I completely mistook sex for intimacy. I thought that as long as we were having sex, we were connected and everything would be fine.
I realize now, thanks to CL and CN, that I was merely OF USE. I am now divorced and as much no contact as possible while trying to deal with his constant mindfucking of the children.
And working very hard towards MEH.
The one issue I disagree with on this list is the idea that the disordered cannot mange the facade for more than a year.
I dated my EX a year and was engaged to him for another year before we married. I thought that was a reasonable period of time. I was wrong.
Now I know that he cycles in about 3-5 year periods. His whole adult life he’s moved to a new place, taken a new job, made new friends, become disenchanted after a year or two when people begin to call him out on his lies and exaggerations, acted like an ass, raged at everyone, lost friends, been fired, and moved again because he’d polluted his own environment so deeply there was no way to continue without relocation. The older he’s grown, the shorter the cycles have become.
I met him at the start of a cycle when he was both new in town and at our place of employment. Four cycles later, I could see the pattern and got a divorce. But I couldn’t see it at the 2 year mark when I married.
Now I know that he lied about his past–he didn’t “leave” a job for a better one. He was fired. He hadn’t lost touch with friends from one city when he got so busy with the fantastic new job in the next city; they just wouldn’t talk to him any longer. All of his claims of great accomplishment were huge exaggerations. He represented himself as an ambitious go-getter pulling himself up by his own bootstraps. He was, in fact, a narcissist supported by his parents in ways I couldn’t see (they paid his down payment on the house, etc.)
I am now a fan of deep digging in a person’s past before marriage. If either you or your new potential partner is a recent addition to the community, I’d also suggest taking a lot more time than a year before committing to the relationship.
My husband has a similar cycle. For most things it lasts 6mo – 5yrs depending on how quickly he becomes disenchanted with whatever he initially thought was great. In my case the whole cycle took 21 years to discard although there may have been mini cycles throughout our marriage (perhaps on that 7 yr itch cycle) where the relationship would have its ups and downs.
E, I wasn’t the victim of a spouse but was platonically love bombed by a co-worker when I did a favor for her. She was on me like a leech. She cheated on her first husband twice, she forged documents at work, she was estranged from her children and she was ALWAYS the victim. I was new to the job and had never dealt with a PD before so I had no idea what I was getting into. She called me constantly, was jealous of any other friendships and had no boundaries. I asked my husband if I was losing my mind because she constantly misquoted me for no reason. My job is very specialized so I had nowhere to go or I would have left. I finally found one, left, and ghosted her and she called every friend I have to try to find out why. The best advice I have is to talk to coworkers because they see these people every day. After I ghosted her the others in the office told me just how nuts she made them for years.
Mine lacked friendships and attachment to people in a healthy way. He had no friends throughout our marriage and clumpy me thought that I was his best friend. Wrong.
Also, he brought flowers and gifts that he liked. Seriously. Usually I’d pick out a gift for my birthday and he’d go buy it. No original thought put into it.
He controlled when we saw each other very early in the relationship and other big life decisions. He loved power and control.
He always had to be the smartest in the room. He’d often say about other professions, “I could have said that.” He was incredibly arrogant.
He triangulated. He manufactured conflict and dis-ease among groups of people, in-laws, friends, etc. He was a real lone wolf and made sure his preferences were a priority.
These were there from the beginning of our long term relationship. And are huge red flags.
Mine lacked friendships and attachment to people in a healthy way. He had no friends throughout our marriage and chumpy me thought that I was his best friend. Wrong.
Also, he brought flowers and gifts that he liked. Seriously. Usually I’d pick out a gift for my birthday and he’d go buy it. No original thought put into it.
He controlled when we saw each other very early in the relationship and other big life decisions. He loved power and control.
He always had to be the smartest in the room. He’d often say about other professions, “I could have said that.” He was incredibly arrogant.
He triangulated. He manufactured conflict and dis-ease among groups of people, in-laws, friends, etc. He was a real lone wolf and made sure his preferences were a priority.
These were there from the beginning of our long term relationship. And are huge red flags.
CL – were you married to the same guy as I was? Just users and cowards, eventually they will reap what they sow.
So many red flags that I totally ignored. A few of the big ones: he told me I wasn’t the type of women he typically dated, he was still in love with his last girlfriend when we dated, and moved in with me after 3 months of knowing him, because he was evicted. He couldn’t keep a job, and sucked big time at paying bills. He had no saving and spent money like crazy. He had a porn addition and was impotent and I had to work EXYREMELY hard to get it semi hard to get me pregnant. But the biggest red flag sign was that after waiting 40 years of wanting to be a mom and finally being one, he forgot, or ignored to get me a mother’s day card. My first f’ing mother’s day and HE forgot a card, much less a present for my FIRST mother’s day. He knew how important that day was to me and he forgot. I yelled at him a few days later to let him know my unhappiness and to never screw it up again. My bday is earlier in the same month so I informed him while he’s picking out my bday card get a mother’s day card. Ugh. Can’t get it back.
Thrill seeking: Watch a man (especially if he is in his sixties) that cannot go a single day without looking for a dopamine rush of some kind. Usually something illicit or risky like porn or online gambling or chat rooms.
Heavy drinking: Watch to see if a man HAS to down a couple bottles of wine every night, a fifth of hard liquor or a six pack or more of beer…or a mix of all of them. What is he medicating? What is his excuse for so much drinking?
Shitty investments: Find out where his money goes…does he get “bright” ideas, finance them (or get you to), and then walk away from them when the thrill wears off or they do not pan out like he wanted?
Laziness: See how much he is willing to help out around the home doing everyday mundane stuff like he expects YOU to do. See how much actually gets done w/o you asking for his help…or how WELL he does it when he does get to it. Look and see how he keeps his own place when he does not expect you to show up…or if he hires out help to keep a tiny flat clean. His being an absolute PIG is a strong indication of a rebellious man.
Love bombing. My ex had me meet her parents after 1 month. Told me that as soon as she saw me, a voice in her head told her I’d be her husband. I wince with embarrassment now, but I mostly ate this bullshit up at the time.
Excessive persuasiveness. People (including myself) blinded by her alleged cuteness and playfulness to see that she gets her way TOO often. I assume more charming men have similar traits.
Vague stories as to the end of prior relationships. (Hint, if she’s always had a boyfriend, and yet realized that “it wasn’t REAL love” with each of them…why do you think you’ll be any different?)
Excessive drinking. Recreational drug use.
Unwillingness to plan and make sacrifices for the long term (aka, hates saving for retirement).
Wack-a-doo jealousy. Like, throwing shit at you. While we were dating, my EW had multiple meltdowns over my having fun when we spent time with HER gay male friend. The following year, she transferred this jealousy to a female classmate in our grad school program. Project much, EW?
Just a general feeling that she/he believes that the initial thrill of a relationship, whether that phase lasts a few months or a few years, can and must be sustained forever, regardless of personal/family/professional responsibilities and naturally evolving priorities.
Funny you should mention these. After the divorce, I had a brief relationship with a guy I met, and I broke it off because he had several of the traits/behaviors you list above. And I’ve had no one since then, so I do think about him sometimes: was I overreacting? Did I misjudge? — Rereading your list, I see that I did not misjudge and would have just been heading down another ugly path.
Oh my god JC, those are the same traits as my STBXH. I had never had this laid out so clearly to see what he really is.
I hate that I got swept up by the lovebombing. Right away, cheater x said he wanted to grow old together and have grandchildren (which was exactly what I wanted to hear). When I asked how he knew that for sure already, he said, “I just do.” That was good enough for me. What was I thinking?!
Very vague about past relationships. When I asked questions, he’d just lie.
Exactly to the last point JC…actually believed the first spark of the Relationship should have been the same not evolve into a comfortable bond through all those years of experiences and kids and travel. I began to notice he would get restless every 2 years throughout our 25 years together until it got to the midlife crisis bit and he had gone through all the money all the job highs etc nothing left but to jump ship. I think with all the stories of MLC actually fits with the narc personality. The effortless lying and dumping you in the worst way is more than just feeling empty in mid life. The effort to destroy you and smear your reputation is pathalogical.
–His friends cheated on, and made disrespectful remarks about their wives/girlfriends. I don’t know why I didn’t see that as a red flag. People can’t choose their relatives, but they do choose their friends. People rarely pick friends who have radically different values than they do.
–He didn’t like it when I went out to see my friends. He would ask me why I couldn’t invite them over to his house, and he’d offer to cook for us. If I did, he would totally turn on the charm and dominate the conversation. He had to be the center of attention. He went to church with me once, and he was a grown man, but acting like a spoiled little kid, trying to talk to me during the service. He couldn’t tolerate my giving attention to anyone, or anything but him.
–He was jealous, often accusing me of flirting, and wanting to cheat with other men. No way! I was so in love with him that I had no interest in anyone else, and I have NEVER cheated in a relationship. It was projection. He knew that HE could lie convincingly, and sneak around. He knew that HE always had to have new lovers. He believed that everyone else thought and acted the same way.
Looking at it now, I wonder why I just accepted all this bad behavior from him. It sounds pathetic, but he could just be so super charming. When I was away from him, I may have had my doubts, but when I was with him, I was completely bamboozled. Which may have been one reason why he wanted to keep me with him all the time. He didn’t want me to be away from him, and have time to think about the relationship. He didn’t want me to be influenced by my friends or my church.
Reading this, it just reminds me again how different cheaters can be from one another. XH did none of these things. I actually wanted him to be a little jealous, but he cared so little, he wasn’t.
We accept the behavior because we have all seen worse and are afraid to hope for better. The slowly, oh so slowly, the sand shifts out from under our feet and we are suddenly in a hole we don’t remember walking into.
Yes! The underlying entitlement and narcissism is there with all of it, but the expression is different on the surface. My ex portrayed himself as this enlightened guy who would never “act like a woman was a possession.” The truth is, that was a cover (again taking that reasonable principle and twisting it until you accept unreasonable behavior) for just not caring at all. Even if a man was well and truly bothering me, he’d sit there and watch the whole thing like it bored him.
Yes, they all have different personalities, express themselves differently, come from different backgrounds, have different levels of ambition, neatness, income etc. And yet there are certain patterns that they all seem to follow.
The scary thing is that us chumps seem to have certain patterns that we follow. The difference is that we are more self aware and are working on fixing our issues and breaking out of destructive patterns.
Yep, I can check ✅ all those as well!
“How he managed to do work a job or perform life chores was beyond me”
I was actually just thinking about this the other day. He’s super successful in his career and I have no frigging clue how. He can’t even understand a parenting agreement. So I’m going to add to the list. These things showed up early in the marriage and progressively got worse over time.
✅He was constantly doing something, yet rarely got anything done. Half finished projects, hobbies, “one day I will _________” with all this crap I have to have. Which leads me to #2
✅He is a borderline hoarder. He kept me busy trying to create order out of all his “stuff”. He’d get board, and start a new hobby, then go out and buy all the things someone who’s had that hobby for years would have. “Oh, I’m going to take up hunting; better buy a dog, guns, giant gun safes, clothing, whistles, dog trainer, kennels, trucks to transport the dog, etc.” This stuff just happened on a whim, and ….
✅ If I said “no”, or protested, he did it anyway! (Bad at respect, boundaries, communication, and reciprocity)
Him: “I want to buy a motorcycle”
Me: “I would rather you didn’t with 3 small children. It’s not worth the risk”
The next day there would be a motorcycle parked in the driveway. Then he’d need a space for that motorcycle, so why not go out and buy a new price of land to build a house with more garage space.
Me: “I don’t know that I want to move”
Him: “Well I’ve already gotten a construction loan”
✅ He would change plans at the last minute, and if I protested, I was being inflexible, controlling, etc.
Driving to my favorite restaurant…
Him: “Let’s go to X,y,Z instead.
Me: “Are you kidding? You know I was looking forward to this meal!”
Him: “You are so predictable, I know exactly what you are going to get. You get the same thing every time! You are so boring! We’re going here so you can expand your horizons.
✅ He is NEVER on time! (Yeah, I know… using the word never is so black and white… which brings me to
✅ He accused me of seeing things in black and white ( usually when the gray area would benefit him).
Me: “hey, there was a stop sign back there that you just blew through”
Him: “Stop signs are optional when there’s no one else in the intersection. You are so black and white in your thinking”
✅ Used insults to shut me up and put the focus back on my behavior… aka blameshifting!
Me: I’m really upset you blew that stop sign with our infant in the car.
Him: You are being dramatic! Why are you so anxious all the time? It’s probably because of your bad childhood. You should probably go get some counseling, because you’re constant nagging drives me crazy!
✅ used terror and intimation to get me to shut up or back down.
Him: I am tired of hearing you nag!
( Steps on the gas and starts driving 20 to 30 miles over the speed limit)
Me: Please slow down, you are scaring me!
Him: I want to jerk this car into a tree right now!
Me: shuts up and silently screams in my head.
Once he gets his way, he thinks everything is back to normal, all is good in the world, and why the heck am I so upset and sullen?
looking back, I kind of see myself as the frog who is slowly being cooked. The frog doesn’t realize she’s being cooked until the water starts to boil, then asks, “how the hell did I let myself be put in this pot!” How did I mistake the pot for a whirl-pool tub? I never noticed the heat being tuned up, because there was someone there intermittently doing some nice things; like stirring the water, and adding aromatherapy spices to my bath. How did I miss that the intention was to cook me? How could I have been so blind?
Oh the “black and white”thinking. Nobody loves the grey areas like entitled, cheating, assholes. As far as they’re concerned everything is a freaking grey area.
Got-a-Brain, Chumps are blind because they are assured that they can’t trust what they see. Same with their hearing. We resolve the confusion by doubting our own faculties instead of trusting that what we perceive is what is happening. The view from a distance is so much clearer.
Wow. All these are true of my EX. Every single one. Reading your it reminds me that “meh” is only one goal. “Thank goodness I’m out of it” is also important!
Three years out, my perspective is less anger-tinted, so I can say with certainty, in hindsight, these are things — not that I *should* have interpreted differently, but I certainly would now:
1. (The Biggie): He is not ever going to “grow up.” I met XH when he was 22 & I was 32. I thought his youth was chronological, not behavioral/pathologic. He will be that carefree, skateboard-ridin’ dude until he dies.
Also:
2. Lack of attachment to others/Lack of compassion: A good friend was in a bad car accident and he didn’t understand why we should go see her in the hospital, “I mean, it’s not like we can DO anything?!?” he protested.
3. Everything was fine/OK/awesome/great, all the time. We never fought, not really, never about anything important. — Now I would interpret that as an inability to get dirty and do some heavy-lifting.
4. Wanting to be around other people, as many people as possible, all the time. That first summer when I spent hundreds of dollars of hard-earned money to fly to his little town where he was working and he met me at the airport with two dozen of his closest work friends? I should have got right back on that plane and gone home.
5. Lack of engagement on the phone: Again with chalking it all up to youthful immaturity.
The youth faded, but the immaturity and disengagement remained.
Ah, the airport thing. I let Stbx know from early on in our relationship how important it was to me to have him at the airport when I returned from visiting family or traveling for work which was maybe twice a year. He was consistently late. A couple of times he sent his dad to pick me up. Always had an excuse and acted like it was no big deal. I would try to act like it was nothing but it always put a damper on coming home. One time the kids and I got back at midnight and I called 3 times no answer. Finally, he calls and says oh, I fell asleep. Now I see that for the control it was.
Oh yes, forgot that red flag. STBX revered the boss who blew up his first marriage by banging the babysitter. It always bothered me that he would see someone like that as a good role model.
I echo what everyone else has said. Deadcheater had all these “tells”. But for me the one I remember most and in hindsight was the most disturbing:
My beloved father had been sick for years, he died on a Friday morning. Friday was always grocery shopping day for ex and me. My dad died at 7am, at 4p cheaterturd called me from work (because he went in that day) and said “hey are we going to the grocery?” , thru my sobs I said I didn’t think so, his answer “Beachgirl life goes on”. So I let him bully me into going to the store, he didn’t like that I looked upset and said in the nastiest tone ever “what the f is wrong with you?!”
This was in 2009, while there were TONS of other red flags this one should have sent me running, I stayed another 6 years, multiple ddays until I finally had enough. His lack of empathy was of serial killer quality.
So sorry about his behavior the day your father died, Beachgirl. Just disgusting.
They can be SO cold-hearted.
I was married for almost 25 years before DDay, so there were some good years and good memories at least for awhile. So while I don’t have any new red flags for identifying a cheater, I do have one enormous red flag for a generally crappy spouse. Someone who won’t get up and DO SOMETHING.
I spent all of those years totally amazed that he would say something like, “Let’s take the kids and go shoot some baskets.”
I’d say, “Great! The basketball is in the garage, the air pump is in the basement. I’ll go hunt down the needle.”
And he’d say, “Then never mind.”
WHAT? Because it takes 10 minutes of effort you don’t want to do it now?? Crikey!
Another time we had planned a bicycle outing for Father’s Day, all plans and preparations already made. As we were literally ready to head out the door he said, “I can’t believe I have to spend my Father’s Day on a bike trail.” We all froze.
I said, “What would you prefer to do?”
He said, “I don’t know, we’ll think of something.”
The “something” was to sit on our butts all day and watch golf. GOLF!!
The next weekend, the kids and I went on the bicycle outing ourselves.
My #1 red flag for if a man deserves to spend time with me is – What do you want to do? And I expect his answers to be MULTIPLE choice!
Devaluing behavior is, I think, a huge red flag. When I see that, not only do I suspect that there’s cheating going on, I suspect the Chump is going to get blamed for it.
He moved fast. ✓
Once we started dating it was every single weekend, ALL WEEKEND. He would spend the entire weekend at my apartment. At the time I thought it was cool that he was driving to me every weekend, although I found it unusual that he owned a house and we never spent time there.
He called too much. ✓
He called from business trips. Every other night. Emails every day. But I now realize we never talked about anything of importance. All the talking and I never got to know who he was. After we were married he hardly ever called or emailed. At work, everyone around me would talk to their spouses during the day. Not me. I didn’t hear a word. He would go out after work and I would not even get a heads up that he was going. If I asked where he was, no replay back. But if I was out, even if I told him where I was and how long I would be there, he would ALWAYS text asking when I was coming home.
He cancelled plans at the last minute. He rarely cancelled plans, but if we didn’t have plans it was very difficult to get a hold of him, even after we were married. He is notorious for not returning calls or not answering calls/texts if he is out. I was so paranoid when I was pregnant about going into labor and not being able to get a hold of him.
When I was with him, I felt charmed. When he left, I felt uneasy. ✓
Yes. Even now, when I go no contact I can see who he is, but as soon as I have even the simplest conversation in person with him, I catch myself thinking “Oh, he’s really not that bad! We can totally work on this.”
I mistook intelligence for character. ✓
YES. He considers himself quite the intellectual. My EX is a VP and it always baffled me that he could not budget money well or manage time or have ANY common sense about anything. And if you disagreed with him on something or gave him advice he would say “Oh, you think you know it all.” He refused to go to the dentist or doctor because they just scam you out of money. My parents didn’t understand politics. My coworkers didn’t really know how to do their jobs…
He was okay with a lack of reciprocity. ✓
It’s not that he was okay with it, he just didn’t understand it AT ALL. When we were first married we divided bills up. Except they were not divided fairly at all. I don’t even know how much he was making at this time. But he always had plenty of money for happy hours. I was part-time contract and I was struggling to pay my part of the bills, including the groceries and the hospital bill for the birth of our daughter. One month, I absolutely did not have money to pay the hospital payment and had to ask him for money. His response? “Oh you want me to pay YOUR bill?” Meanwhile, he hadn’t paid the gas bill for 5 months. When we got a disconnection notice I made him get a joint account so we could manage money better.
Either he didn’t introduce me to his friends, or he simply didn’t have friends.
I had quite the opposite experience on this one. I LOVE his friends. They are amazing people and are actually part of the reason why I was so blind to his red flags. If he had amazing friends, how could he be a terrible person? By the way, those amazing friends are still amazing. None of them want anything to do with him anymore.
He was vague about his past. ✓
Yup. Got a DWI, but made it seem like it was YEARS before I met him. I recently found the paperwork for this. It was less than 6 months before I met him. His ex had a name, but that was it. HE never mentioned anything about their relationship other than she was Lutheran and he is catholic—that’s why it didn’t work out.
I mistook sex for intimacy ✓
YES. We had SO. MUCH. SEX. before we were married. All weekend long. Multiple times a day. All over my apartment. He had to love me because he couldn’t keep his hands off me. After our daughter was born, he never touched me again. Not once. She is 7.
He was shit at gift giving. ✓
When he did give gifts, they were so cliche. Diamond earrings, diamond necklace. Then he started buying me gift certificates to an online jeweler I liked. After a coupe of years of these gift certificates, I mentioned that I didn’t really need any more jewelry from them. I never got another present again. Not even some little trivial thing. Sine I didn’t want that standard gift, I then got nothing.
You offended him by letting him know that you would prefer a different gift so he punished you with no gifts. “she doesn’t appreciate me”. And yet they will complain that you don’t communicate when you are afraid to open your mouth for fear of offending them.
Cancer Chump – ‘When he did give gifts, they were so cliche. Diamond earrings, diamond necklace.”
I’ll give you an A+ for absolutely cracking me up.
I never thought those kind of gifts were a cliche, but then I never did get much (if any) jewelry, let alone quality. Mostly costume jewels from my mom after she died. I had an X who didn’t ‘believe’ in gifts, especially not expensive jewelry like diamonds. He said he didn’t like doing anything that was ‘required’ of him, like Valentines, b’days, xmas, etc. He said I’d just get the nice things dirty playing with the dogs.
Funny that – You think it’s a cliche and I thought it sounded mahvelous, darling, but what do I know about jewelry or gifts. But, if I had them now, it would break my heart even more. If he had of gifted them to me in a sentimental way, I’d probably never be able to get rid of them. Not long after he found his NDM (New Dick Massager) he actually gave me a diamond. A super huge diamond. I didn’t know what to do with it (so maybe he’s right, I’m a waste of jewelry) but I’ve almost lost it a few times. I refuse to wear it. It’s really really gaudy, as in big. Huge in fact. I just feel like losing it somewhere while I’m visiting a homeless shelter.
I think you forget what a normal reaction is by the time you’ve served a couple of decades with these monsters .
I have more male friends, than female. He would trash talk my girlfriends to the point of me quetioning my relationship with them. If I went out with a girlfriend without him, he would stalk me. I remember one time having drinks with one and I saw his car in the parking lot.
He would get buddy buddy with my male friends–he would get their number and hang out with them and kind of take them over. Insane jealously and control.
I thought the sex was great at first, but then I realized it was more a performance for him. Like Tracy said, I could have been anyone. One time I just laid there to see if he would notice I wasn’t really participating, and he didn’t notice. At all.
That and pretty much everything on Tracy’s list. Ughh. I hope I leaned my leason. First sign to watch for–love bombing! I’m starting to date again and really hope I have the strength to recognize the signs without being too paranoid. I know there are good guys or there.
Yes to the idea of sex as performance. It didn’t take me long to realize that sex with my ex was much like every other aspect of our marriage: lonely.
I like this list. Sadly, no matter how much I comb over the details of my relationship with my ex, I can’t find anything that remotely suggested she could be capable of any of the things she eventually did (frankly, the cheating was just the beginning of her abuse). But that’s not to say that I can’t see signs that I relationship was likely to run into problems in hindsight. I can see the disconnects between us more clearly, but the idea that she would just make such rotten choices in the end, there’s nada.
Were there narcissistic tendencies? Eh. Kinda I guess. She was in her own bubble in our relationship a lot and didn’t really see my side of things very well. But then again, I was guilty of that sometimes too. There’s no reason being a navel gazer in a relationship has to translate to infidelity. I suppose I’ll try to avoid people like that in the future, and that might make me a little safer, but honestly, the fact that I haven’t been able to trace any really clear warning signs makes me extremely wary about getting into another relationship. It makes me question my ability to really know a person’s character.
Finally, I do want to just say a little thing about the last category from CL. Being a shitty gift giver doesn’t necessarily mean someone is a narcissist. I say this as someone who is chronically crappy at giving gifts. Not my love language, so to speak. Which isn’t to say that I don’t try, but I’ve accepted that this is not my strength, and I hope that a future partner would be able to accept that about me as well. Instead of thinking that being bad at gift giving is a red flag, I would say you should look at the whole picture of how your partner shows love and affection. Maybe they aren’t great at gifts, but maybe they go out of their way in other ways. If not, then yeah, you might either be looking at a narcissist, or just someone who isn’t very invested in your relationship.
It really isn’t the gifts, it’s the lack of any effort in the relationship. For instance, when you are sick, is your partner supportive or pissed that you are in bed? Is there a mutuality in the relationship, a give and take, where the needs of one another are equally important?
I understand that there are different love languages, but there must be some type of indication that your partner in considerate of you. It comes down to respect, trust, and commitment, or lack thereof.
I also know it is difficult to figure out what to do to keep from being a chump, again. That is one of the reasons I do not date. But, I do believe I know now what a narcissist looks like, and I protect myself against them in all areas of my life. There seems to be a growing acceptance of selfishness in our culture, which perhaps is why so many of us have been chumped.
STBX was angry about the acceptance of selfishness in our culture when practiced by others. He hated “entitlement mentality”. That seems to be part of what lead him to stray. There was seeming no consequence to selfish behavior so maybe I should try it and be happy like all of the other selfish people.
Seriously, after DDay he was telling me that he regretted being such a nice guy because “nice guys finish last”. He felt that he had been too nice to me and that if he had just used me and discarded me in the early years of our relationship he would have gotten better from me. He referenced a previous romantic partner who treated me horribly and used me for sex and figured that guy got better than he ever did (not true, I moved on from other guy before he was ready to stop using me while STBX got 25 years love, sex and a competent partner). Having an affair was his way of “doing something for myself for a change”. Needless to say hearing this was pretty devastating for me. He not only didn’t want to be nice to me any more he regretted ever having been nice to me and obviously didn’t recognize how much I had done for him in return out of appreciation for all of the nice things he had done that he now regretted. I did a lot to improve his life that he evidently didn’t even notice.
Seriously, I think he has totally lost his mind. The only thing that might get through his thick skull is karma, but he probably wouldn’t recognize that either.
Mine was a pretty good gift giver and he would buy my flowers at random times. This is what make what he did so hard to understand. I literally was everything he ever needed and wanted until I wasn’t anymore. There were red flags that I now acknowledge and that’s why I’m so totally and utterly confused between who he is and how I thought he was.
Mine also bought me flowers at random times. But I think there was manipulation in that, as well, because I had told him so many times that my previous boyfriends had never been very thoughtful, never sent me flowers, etc. I think it was a mirroring technique.
My dad was (is) a serial cheater … he always bought flowers for each of his wives (each of whom, except my mom — his first wife) was an OW to the previous wife.
He bought flowers to manipulate them. Either they were arguing and he wanted the wife to stop “bitching” or he was cheating (sometimes both). And, it was an “easy” that didn’t require much thought or absolutely no emotional investment.
Having realized this is what my dad was doing (I realized it as a kid), I told every boyfriend, including my STBX husband, that they were never allowed to buy me flowers. Ever.
It’s too bad really. Flowers are so pretty. I just can’t disassociate them from my jerk of a father.
*”easy” remedy
(Sorry for the typos!)
It’s something that in a normal relationship we would be really happy to get these surprises. After D-day my whole feelings on getting/giving gifts has changed. STBX spent Christmas telling me what I could get him and winging that I never use the gifts he brought me. I brought him some lovely personalised gifts that i had to throw away. He brought me a beautiful eternity ring that I wore for 10 days before he confessed to be a liar she a cheater. Why would give that to your wife when you are planning on leaving her very soon.
Sadly, that is how these disordered creeps work.
My dad renewed his vows with his 2nd-to-last wife and then took her on a week-long, romantic vacation. During all of this, he was cheating with the woman he would leave that wife for just a few weeks later … (I graduated high school with the OW … yep, same age as me).
Why did he do all of that? He was buttering up the 2nd-to-last wife in case he decided NOT to leave for the OW. It turns out, he couldn’t decide if he should leave because he didn’t want to lose half of his assets. Plus, the OW has young kids. He didn’t know if he wanted that kind of a commitment since his kids are all grown and he never really liked having kids around anyway.
He’s now married to the OW, helping to raise her kids, has lost most of his money fighting his last wife in the divorce (it’s a no-fault state), and he has been very ill. Karma bus is chugging along.
I hope this information helps you understand that a) your STBX is not unusual with this; b) you were never the problem.
*I need to shower now … yuck … I can’t believe I’m related to this asshole.
*Side-note … I could read my dad’s escapades so easily, but I never could read my STBX’s. My dad is much more of an overt narc. My STBX is extremely covert. When I met him, I thought he was the opposite of my dad. I was right, but in the wrong way.
I too have an overt father and covert STBX. My father was also a serial cheater, he left my mum when I was 15. He left for the last OW who he has been with ever since. I think the only reason he stopped cheating was because he got old and had health problems. His wife had no children and they both work the same hours so she is able to devote her life fully to him and does most of the things in the home. He still leers over younger women including most of the girlfriends my 3 brothers have ever had. Myself and my brothers all know what he is like but I think because my mum stayed with him we had just accepted that that was who he was. My parents have still remained friends, my mum says it was just “easier” that way as she didn’t want to miss out on time with us kids and she didn’t want us to think badly of our father.
Mike B – ‘Being a shitty gift giver doesn’t necessarily mean someone is a narcissist. I say this as someone who is chronically crappy at giving gifts. Not my love language, so to speak. Which isn’t to say that I don’t try, but I’ve accepted that this is not my strength, and I hope that a future partner would be able to accept that about me as well. Instead of thinking that being bad at gift giving is a red flag, I would say you should look at the whole picture of how your partner shows love and affection.”
Mike, I agree totally with you.
I am not very materialistic and we really came to the point that gifts were not important.
We each had whatever we wanted and, he was right, if we didn’t we’d buy it for ourselves we didn’t need it.
What was missing along with the missing gifts was the romance of a nice evening out.
I would prefer that over anything – having fun treating me like a queen.
And, I would be happy to retaliate on his day. The King for a day.
But, unfortunately, my Ex didn’t really have a romantic or generous spirit towards me during any kind of special event. Gifts are not the only way to express that.
1.) Everything was fast. He tried to get me into bed fast, he seemed bowled over by me way too fast, he said he was falling for me way too fast, he introduced me to all his friends and family way too fast. I could tell he’d just decided I was “the girl” and I was so stupidly flattered I didn’t stop to think about how abnormal this really was, esp in light of all the other signs.
2.) Though he was mostly super attentive, there were these incongruent moments of total distance. He was vague about his past, he didn’t say I love you, something would come up and he’d have to attend a mystery BBQ without inviting me. They happened seldom but when they did, the contrast was stark. I spackled them.
3.) He paid for EVERYthing, always opened my door, was uber-gentlemanly, and bought me very expensive gifts. After D-day, I came to understand that all that was how he justified his cheating–I gave you stuff. I spent money. It was a seduction so I’d look the other way and not question him. He was buying me off.
4.) His phone was stapled to his person at all times. Even took it to the bathroom, claimed he liked to watch dumb Youtube videos because “I’m a guy.” Over time I learned he was very protective of his home porno collection and all his hoes.
5.) His apartment, though he lived in it for years, wasn’t decorated at all. Not one thing on the walls. It was as empty as he was inside. Who lives that way? However, I kept finding women’s clothing and toiletries, clothes of different sizes. It seems all women had left in a hurry. BIG RED FLAG. Also found a ton of condoms and more lube than you’d find at a bathhouse (we never used any). Spackle spackle spackle.
6.) He was in his mid-40s and never been married, though most of his friends had. He frequently went on trips with these friends without inviting me, saying I’d be bored bc all they did was watch sports. They all seemed sort of stuck in college, but particularly my dude.
7.) Though his family members I met all seemed lovely, he had strangely distant and critical relationships with them. Sociopath red flag: can’t form real attachments.
8.) Every problem I had with him, he always had a very smooth, ready explanation for and rarely got defensive, except toward the end when I was really exposing some things. He’d just say what I wanted to hear to get me off his back, and go more underground. He would do some subtle blame-shifting though, such as implying I was racist for getting upset when he was late (he said this was “very white” of me), or saying he didn’t deserve to have me be suspicious bc I’d been cheated on before.
9.) He was ALWAYS LATE.
10.) When I got pregnant the mask dropped entirely. He was suddenly critical, selfish, abandoning, and not there for me at all. He continued to do things like cook smell fish even though he knew that made me sick. He demonstrated zero empathy and was just…a totally different person. It was shocking. Really, he became the person he always was that I didn’t want to see overnight.
Yuck. can’t believe I put up with all that. I never would again.
“Everything was fast. He tried to get me into bed fast, he seemed bowled over by me way too fast, he said he was falling for me way too fast, he introduced me to all his friends and family way too fast. I could tell he’d just decided I was “the girl” and I was so stupidly flattered I didn’t stop to think about how abnormal this really was, esp in light of all the other signs.”
This was me. All of it. He introduced me to his two sons – 4 and 5 at the time – immediately. I was only 24 and desperately craving attention and affection since my dad had been so distant to me growing up. I was completely bowled over, and any red flags I saw (and there were plenty), I just spackled!
#9 Always Late…..LOL.
I could tel my wife how important an event for my job was or a dinner date or a family event, or she’d tell me what time she was going to be home. ALWAYS LATE!
As a general rule of thumb, and I think we all should embrace this, I will never have anything to do with a partner that drinks other than socially or watches porn again.
100% agree with you.
Ditto! But the Porn is going to be hard to catch since it is now “palm porn” ie smart phones rather on a big personal computer. You’d have to be pretty innovative to be able to catch a man w/o having already gone into a deeper (physical) relationship with him in order to get a hold of his phone when he does not know. This is one reason that I will never be in a relationship again…plus, I enjoy my freedom and independence at my age now.
I suppose that if you were already sexually active, you could figure out that he is a porn user by some of the things he does in bed.
Good GRIEF! Palm Porn.
Now I’ve heard everything.
I can’t compete with that and, anyway, I refuse to.
I’d have just the luck of a guy making love to me while he watches his phone the whole time.
Gross.
Sweetz – ‘I suppose that if you were already sexually active, you could figure out that he is a porn user by some of the things he does in bed.’
OK, I’ve been out of the dating ‘scene’ for over 3 decades.
I’ve never been exposed to porn other than The Green Door many years ago.
The X, as far as I know, thought porn was evil because his mom did.
If you don’t mind me asking since I’m dipping my toe in the dating pool, what does a porn-user do in bed that is different than – say….Quaker Sex?
I have read it so somewhere that a red flag is petty theft. He worked at an airport and he would come home from work with things that people had dropped off of their luggage and children’s toys from people’s pushchairs. I used to think it was very odd but he didn’t seem to agree. He also used to come home from his territorial army nights with things from the stores. He was a medic so bandages and other things. It may have been totally innocent but I now doubt everything he said and did so I’m not sure.
My ex is also a petty theft opportunist, too. Funny, considering he’s a law enforcement officer. He always justified it by saying he deserved it and someone else shouldn’t have left it unattended or in storage or whatever, and he thought I was a goody two-shoes for thinking it was wrong.
Mine did the same. When he worked on the railroad, he used to bring rolls and rolls of toilet paper home. WHY? Because he could. He took a bunch of stuff from every job he was ever at.
“Petty Theft’ – That sounds very similar to a condition called Kleptomania. In a group this large, no wonder there are about 5% who have this issue. I have a friend with it. It is totally incurable. I’m sure you’ve read about it. It’s a mental illness and they can’t help it, apparently, without NOT ever going to a place they can steal something.
Pretty sad if you dig up the info on it.
My PD coworker forged her supervisor’s name and because it “wasn’t that important a paper” could not understand the outrage and was nearly fired. It is the little things that show the real person. On the other hand, my brother knew his wife almost all their lives and nothing about her behavior told anyone that she could abandon her family. That was why he was so blindsided. She just told him she was leaving, and left.
The biggest red flag was how he treated other people. He didn’t treat me this way (at the time), and the cognitive dissonance left me spackling and convincing myself that I was making too much of it, that it was a one-off, or that people just didn’t see the “real” him. This includes small things, like when he found a lost USB thumb drive with someone’s draft master’s thesis in a university computer lab (back in the day when USB sticks were very expensive), and shrugging his shoulders when I suggested that he should have turned it in to lost and found because someone could have lost months of research and writing. Finders keepers, losers weepers, he said. That was a BIG red flag, but I swept it under the rug. The red flags also included major things, like not dropping everything to fly home to be with his family when his dad went into a coma after routine heart surgery. His dad woke up about 48 hours later and had experienced a nearly-fatal brain stem stroke that permanently disabled him and changed his mom’s and siblings’ life. But he didn’t go home for months.
I should have known that the way he treats other people would eventually become the way he treated me. I wasn’t spared, and neither will the other woman be spared. I’m sure she thinks it’s different for her, just like I thought it was different for me. She saw how he treated me and didn’t blink an eye. Yeah, that’ll come back to bite her in the ass, and she totally deserves it.
Only 1, 7, 8, and 10 for me. A little on 6.
My XH and I knew each other most of our lives before we started dating. I think that set a different stage for him.
He was the King of Passive-Aggressiveness. And he also had these weird scripts in his head that he expected me to follow. He would, after a decade of marriage, act hurt that when he came home, I didn’t get up from the sofa to say I loved him and hug him. Once, I forgot to say “I love you” before we hung up and he pouted about it for a day or two.
And he was an awful horrible outstandingly bad gift giver. But he was a master manipulator in making it look like it was all me! I was just really hard to please!
I knew his first wife. I was at her bachelorette party. I knew the girlfriend after the first wife. Then I had suspected that he had cheated and left the first wife for the GF, but not only did they deny it, but mutual friends of ours also swore that they hadn’t. I was young and believed that BS. By the time him and I started dating, him and the wife were split a few years and him and the GF over a year.
I found out recently that yes he absolutely cheated on the first wife with next GF. I would have never dated him had I known that.
I met my husband when I was just 16 and he was 17. He was one of the most popular and best looking guys in our high school of over 3000 people. I couldn’t believe he was interested in me. One of the things he said he liked about me was that I didn’t fall over over him. First red flag – a ladies’ man.
We dated for years and went to college together. I was crazy about him and thought he had so many wonderful qualities. We got engaged and about 4 months before our wedding he abruptly started crying and wanted us to go talk to a pastor. That’s when I found out that he’d “seen someone else he thought he might be interested in.” He came back a few days later and begged me to take his ring back, saying he’d just had cold feet. He would never talk about who this other person was, or what their relationship entailed. I took him back and we just moved forward with our wedding which had been postponed for a year. Huge red flag. I was so young and in love, just thought he had cold feet. Big mistake. It was a pattern.
Throughout our marriage he was always getting attention from women. If I went to the restroom while we were out at a club, I’d come back to a table of women sitting at the table with him. Sometimes when we were dancing, women would tap me on the shoulder and ask if they could dance with my husband.
He wouldn’t talk about his emotions, in fact he seemed emotionless. This was something I discovered a year or so into our marriage when he said he couldn’t understand why his grandmother was crying at his grandfather’s funeral. I thought that was a very odd question. Once he told me he could get his coworkers to do anything he wanted by “acting like he cared.” Big red flag – faking emotions to manipulate people.
He always became “close friends” with the women he worked with. If it was his boss, he’d become her best friend, in fact, her “work husband.” He would fall all over her in order to advance at work. He ended up getting her position after she left. He was also too close to one of his married grad students.
In hindsight the biggest red flag in the beginning of our relationship was that he refused to talk about his emotions or be vulnerable. He wasn’t capable of true intimacy.
Biggest red flag???? Nonstop Facebook selfies.
Lol. Absolutely!
Hindsight is indeed 20/20. My biggest red flags…
He is cheap. Embarrassingly cheap. And proud of it. This above all of them should have been my dope slap to the back of the head that I was getting involved with someone who would be cheap with EVERYTHING: information, kindness, sex, etc.
His only “friends” were from college – and they got together maybe once a year to drink and reminisce about the “good old days” from twenty years ago. They were also epic cheapskates. I found them one-dimensional and dull.
I never met an old girlfriend. EVER. He never talked about them, either. I finally realized he is a bad breaker upper. And they probably ran for their lives. Smart women (or men. I still think he’s a gay homophobe).
He had and still has a tit-for-tat approach to life. He never did anything without expecting something in return.
His parents hated each other. His mother was the put upon, emotionally abused wife who baked to feel significant, and his father was a certifiable cluster B asshole who treated her like the dimwitted help. There was no sign of joy in that house, ever.
Gift giving became a predictable source of pain to me, which became a good source of control and abuse to him. He enjoyed my disappointment when he would make a big deal over a computer-generated greeting card he made in response to a romantic Valentine’s dinner and gift I had given him. There were many, many Christmas mornings when there was nothing under the tree for me. He visibly got off on my pain. He became more animated and then irate when he saw tears in my eye.
Trust your gut. TRUST YOUR GUT. I didn’t and will pay the price for the rest of my life. Because I bred with a fucktard, now our oldest son has the same mental illness and substance abuse issues as his douchebag father. As did his doucebag father before him. All my attempts at sane parenting can never compensate for the strong, genetic predisposition to Cluster B personality disorders that run in that family. Talk about a cesspool of a gene pool.
red flags:
1/ love bomber , really really keen, endless sex
2/ very close “friendships” with women at work
3/ Refusal to let you know his diary, where he was, who with until after the event
4/ No empathy when his children hurt themselves. Very harsh
5/ Showed off in front of others – what a great guy….especially true with other children.
6/ money obsessed
7/ charm, charm. charm.
8/ Good social manners but then suddenly do something really odd such as blatantly ignore someone.
9/ Worked a room like no other
10/ A need for lots of activity at all times. Not relaxing to be with.
What IS IT with the freaking toilet paper? Ex traveled for work, and no matter what hotel he was screwing ho-worker in, he still came home with all the toilet paper that wasn’t already on the roll. Don’t get it, I’m good at keeping the house stocked.
And gifts: my biggest sweetest gift ever was a man’s style shearling coat (I’m pretty tall for a woman) that he bought me when as a SAHM of a 2 month old, he FINALLY got a job, in the middle of freezing NOWHEREland.
The lovely shearling coat was presented to me with much ceremony in the presence of his family as a ‘thank you’ and Christmas gift for leaving behind ALL my friends and family for a cold, desolate place (to me) knowing I’d basically be stranded inside for much of the year with our newborn. There were glasses lifted (at 11AM, it was that kind of family) and cheers and hugs all around.
Right after our split a number of years later, I took the coat to have it cleaned, which costs about $100–major bucks for me—and when I went to the store to pick it up, the beautiful Shearling coat was GONE!
My ‘husband’ had been calling the fur cleaners a few times a week asking when this coat would be returned to the cleaners’ and picked it up for me as a favor. Uh-huh. He still features the coat in his selfies heavily on social media—his loser family seems to have forgotten that it was a very important and special gift to me.
Same with other gifts from him to me, large or small: they all seemed to ‘go missing’ coincidental with the time I kicked him out. Like: I don’t deserve the gift anymore? or he re-gifted it to Schmoopie (which I have seen on social media as well, poor little thing)
Now that they’re divorcing after their heavenly few years together, wonder if he’ll reclaim the gifts initially to me, then to Schmoopie, too–for wifey #3? Heaven bless her.
He STOLE his gift from you?!? What an ASS. Wow.
Yeah, the whole toilet paper thing is bizarre!!! Ex had no problem taking stuff that wasn’t his. And garage sales! Oh my, the crap he bought at garage sales was ridiculous! Games we never played, stupid junk we didn’t need. I swear the guy was trying to fill that empty hole in his soul with STUFF.
Toilet paper must be like solid gold to asshats. I was routinely admonished over the years for using too much toilet paper. The Fucktard had a strict three-sheet rule I ignored, but then, he never had to scrub the skid marks out of his trousers, so what did he care. I bought it, and I used as much as I felt necessary, and enjoyed my bathroom rebellion.
He also thought he was entitled to take stuff he’d “given” me. Not as gifts (I’d left the 125+ rose bushes and the impressive coaster collection behind), but in the divorce settlement. So he used his charm on mutual friends and poked around until he found where I was living and took a crowbar to the patio door, presumably to steal the cats, but I imagine everything inside was fair game. As luck would have it, I was home to foil that evil plot, and I moved the next week. But I did notice a bit earlier that someone had taken one earring from each and every pair I owned, though he’d given me none of them.
There seems to be something about the gifts.
M XH claimed, repeatedly, that I return to him his jewellery gifts to me. They were in fact 2 silver sets. Everything else I bought myself.
But I understand that he was trying to impress his new (2 years affair) love.
TSL,
Seriously,
You can’t make this shit up!???
I have 2 lists.
For my X Husband, the list is pretty short. As a true sociopath, there were no signs. The only give away was that he bragged to have passed a test for psychopaths. I could not solve that test, thus I thought he was smart.
Please understand that I had no notion of psychology at the time.
For the narc I met before my husband, there were several signs.
1. I felt uneasy in his presence. That gut feeling alone should have sent me running and screaming!
2. I did not believe him when he said some surreal things. I thought he was joking.
Things like: he cannot promise a relationship – that was in the beginning
I’m too ashamed to write down the things he said later on.
3. Weird reactions.
He froze at the end of our first date. I liked him and I was waiting for a kiss. Instead I got a blank stare. I got pissed and left, why did I bother talking to him again??? Because I liked him….
Once, I put my hands on his knee. He stood up as if his pants caught fire. “What are you doing?” then he said he doesn’t want a relationship and left. I was so shocked about the whole thing that I didn’t react at all.
He returned after half an hour. Why the hell did I let him in?
I
Newbie here, but I have ‘been here’ on this site for about 2 years. This site has been my saving grace. My story began in 2001, when my world was shattered. Yes, almost 17 years since D Day and I am still picking up the pieces of the bomb drop. Anyway, that is a story for another day. I just wanted to add to this topic. My ex and I (during wreck conciliation, which lasted 4 years) went on a skiing trip to Switzerland with our two sons. His idea, obviously. We had skiing lessons during the day, then he would just disappear off on walks, etc. He would later tell friends that I never wanted to join him. However, he neglected to tell them that he never invited me. Towards the end of our stay, I booked a table at a Fondue restaurant for the 4 of us, thinking it would be great to experience something new as a family. The table was booked for 7pm. My youngest son, at the last minute asked if he could join some friends he had met, for dinner and my eldest was still on the slopes. Not wanting to spoil their fun, I thought, well okay, that just leaves my husband and I to have a romantic dinner together. Well, when I told my husband the ‘good news’ he turned to a couple at the bar who we had just met, and invited them to join us for dinner. I was still sparkling at that stage, but my gut was going haywire. On our last day, he disappeared again and I decided to take a walk into the little picturesque town. My H was into Vodka and all the unique bottles. I bought him a bottle and he was very pleased with it. We left for the airport the next day and going through customs he was stopped. The Vodka wasn’t sealed in a duty free bag and was confiscated. He had the gall to lie to the custom officials and told them he had bought the Vodka at the airport. Obviously, they didn’t buy his story. He then in typical Narc fashion, told them he would NEVER be coming back to this airport ever again. I can laugh about this now. Sorry this was long…
Here’s one I had even heard 25+ years ago, but unfortunately chose to overlook: “Never marry a man who treats his own mother badly.”
Even at the beginning when he was on his “best behavior” with me, he was always very dismissive and rude towards his mom, with no good explanation. (Later on, when he went to alcohol rehab, he blamed all HIS problems on her, since she had been a drinker for awhile after discovering her own husband cheating, though sober for 30 years. To this day, STBX continues to idealize his deceased cheating dad — IMHO that’s who was the bad role model, if anyone). His attitude towards his own parents always disturbed me — should have listened to my gut!
And on the other extreme never marry a man who puts his mother before you. From early in our relationship, we would spend most Friday nights on double dates with his parents. As a struggling college student and then entry level professional, it was nice because they took us to nice restaurants but most of the conversation revolved around their business and that never changed. Stbx always did what mommy said and still does. I don’t think she realizes her power over him. After he moved out into his own house, a couple of times I was there on a Saturday morning and he would find out she was coming over and I would have to leave quickly. (And yes it was mommy not another woman then because I saw her. It was like triangulation)
I think a couple of times, he had me park my car on another street in case she happened by.
Fucking assclown- boy was I stupid. Now, she is still wiping his ass and he is kissing hers.It borders on incestuous. She is on his side 100% having cut off me and the kids.
Yep, he had a really creepy relationship with his mother and set up a triagulation with her in our marriage. I am soooo thankful to be rid of that and will never again be with a man who has not cut the apron strings yet.
I had the
-Love Bombing – she moved in with me after 3 months
-Lack of reciprocity – In 25 years the only bills she has paid has been her cell phone and the pet insurance.
-Gifts – With hindsight all her gifts have been crap as a man I am not really bothered.
– Vagueness about her past – She cheated on her previous boyfriend only mentioned once and then she denied it all
Other red flags from the start were :
– Lots of male friends and few female ones
– Wild career changes e.g. give up work for 5 years to sell fair trade fashion – she is now embarking on a distance learning degree.
– Unwillingness to compromise – if she wanted another cat or dog we were getting one-again partly my fault
The most recent red flag that emerged in the last few years has been the almost manic self promotion on social media – new profile pictures every week
–
Spackling, not sparkling… Apologies
There were red flags with my cheater, but they don’t match CL’s at all. My cheater moved slowly, and he gave thoughtful gifts. Usually. But then there was our last Christmas together (this was a couple months BEFORE his “I’m unhappy” talk) when he and the kids had opened all of their presents that I’d spent all month buying and wrapping with MY money (he never contributed to Christmas gifts, even for the kids), and I sat there with zero gifts. He didn’t even help the kids give me a gift. I remember trying to smile and saying, “It’s okay, Christmas is about giving, not receiving.” But NOTHING?
Spackle, spackle, spackle….
Here are the flags I’ll be sure to watch for in the future:
1. Porn – Mine said porn was something that “all guys did”. He didn’t look at it in front of me. He was totally secretive about it, but he knew this made me uncomfortable. About 20 years ago, I remember accidentally coming across some porn passwords while on his computer. I spackled and told myself that he didn’t really use them. More recently, when I gained access to our Internet account post-separation, I found an email that the account had been temporarily suspended just before he moved out because he had downloaded a porn video from an illegal site that was flagged by our ISP. And of course, in his “I’m unhappy” talk, he admitted to YEARS of near-daily use of a cam-girl site, where he spent loads of money. He did all of that during the night while the kids and I were asleep. I thought he was up late playing video games with his friends.
2. Ooogling/flirting with younger girls in public – Okay, I’m not a total prude. I know that there are beautiful women around. But the constant head-turning and smiles, right in front of me! It’s just creepy! Guys in their 40s shouldn’t gawk at every 20-year-old jogging down the street. Grow up. And flirting with waitresses and store clerks! Friendliness is one thing, but flirting is another.
3. Not paying for things – This happened all the time for most of our relationship. He only started paying for things in the last year. (That coincided with a huge raise, which also coincided with fucking his boss. Hmmm.) Still, he and I always made about the same about of money, yet I was usually the one stuck paying for things and handling the bills. The bills were my responsibility because he was more focused on video games and didn’t pay attention to grown-up concepts like pay-by dates.
4. (Related to the above) Not accepting adult responsibilities, always being late for appointments, forgetting appointments altogether, not scheduling follow-up doctor appointments, not bringing the car in for an oil change, driving around with expired tags, forgetting about jury duty, etc. – Unfortunately, I still have to deal with this one while coparenting. Most of the school things go through me, but he still has to bring the kids places when they’re with him. They’re often late. Recently, my son missed a music lesson altogether. This is so frustrating because it’s disrespectful to other people and reflects poorly on my children!
5. Hanging out with kids (more than adults) at social gatherings – He sometimes says that “Well, SOMEONE has to.” Um… no, the kids are old enough to hang out on their own and probably prefer to not have a grown-up around. He also seems a bit touchy-feely with our own kids. I’m not implying that he is inappropriate with them, because he isn’t. But he’s waaaay more touchy than other parents are with their kids. I wonder if he thinks that’s how to express affection? Their preteen boys and don’t need constant hugs. Weird, right? Just BE there for them and LISTEN to them when they talk. That’s what boys need from their dad. Don’t just talk to them about video games. Mostly, people wonder why a middle-aged guy is hanging out with the kids all the time.
6. Dressing younger than his age – He did this in his 20s, and still does it now. Just shifted to an older age group, but still not his own age group.
7. Not being fully engaged in conversations – This happened ALL THROUGHOUT our relationship, and I only realized it at the end. He never really cared about me. He never really asked inquiring questions.
Egads, yes — my STBX did a lot of this crap too. He completely hid the porn from me (for more than two decades … several hours a day). When I finally figured it out, he said, “It’s just porn. All guys watch it.”
And the flirting with younger girls. One of the worst incidences was when he flirted with a girl who graduated with our oldest daughter … in front of our daughter. Both girls were understandably mortified.
Chumptacular’s Overlooked Cheater Warning Signs
1. Phone number for someone else found in the glove compartment of his car right after we started dating. I thought that we were on the cusp of the Exclusive Commitment Stage as we were exiting the Playing the Field Stage, and the phone number was just a leftover remnant from the Playing the Field Stage.
2. Disappearing Acts When We Were Dating. Of course he wanted to see me but his friends were just too persistent about going for a Boys’ Night Out and he was too nice to tell them “no.” He would never be seeing another girl! He loves me!!
3. After marriage, being called another woman’s name repeatedly that is not even close to my name. He tried to cover it up by turning it into a pet name.
4. Not just looking at other females, but beholding them. Looking at them like he is a starving man at an All You Can Eat Buffet. When called out, the predictable responses include, “But I was just looking! I wasn’t touching!” and “You have nothing to worry about.”
5. Back in the day when he had a job, he talked incessantly about a female co-worker and when asked if he had feelings for her, he said, “Oh no, she’s ugly! She has a boyfriend.” Invites co-worker and her boyfriend over for a visit, only to ignore me and co-worker’s boyfriend and to stare at co-worker, repeating her name 100 times in 30 minutes.
6. Once upon a time, when he had a job and we would meet at our apartment complex for lunch, I noticed a female neighbor across the way would come out to sunbathe five minute before he got there and would go back in her apartment five minutes after he left. She also timed herself to check her mail whenever she knew he would be at the mailboxes to check our mail, which was always right after he got off from work.
7. When we were visiting a male friend of his, the male friend’s sister-in-law reacted to my presence with considerable aggression. I thought this was odd, considering I didn’t know her. It was to the point that his male friend actually called her out on it.
8. As we were driving one day, he went to take a shortcut and gleefully proclaimed, “I’m gonna cheat!!”
I immediately felt nauseated, and thought, “Does he mean he’s just going to take a shortcut or cheat with a woman? Terrible choice of words if he really was referring to taking a shortcut!” In retrospect, he was having the affair that detonated the marriage, so I chalk this up to a psychopathic tell.
9. Smearing the family member who potentially had dirt on him. His sister-in-law saw our old truck at his mother’s house at a time when I was working and his mother was in a nursing home. She said that she knocked at the door and we didn’t answer her. The reason “we” did not answer is because “we” were not there. He did not answer because he was there with OW. He really went on the offensive against his sister-in-law, calling her jealous and a troublemaker. He really was angry with her. At the time all of this was going on, he was being extremely emotionally abusive to me and it was just a relief for me to have a brief respite from the abuse as he turned it away from me and on to his sister-in-law. I never even entertained the possibility at the time that he was cheating; if he and I could unite over the common enemy of our sister-in-law, then that was one thing we could unite on and there was hope for the marriage after all.
10. The Cheater’s Trifecta AKA The One-Three Punch
a. Cheater is spotted talking to a strange woman in apartment complex parking lot.
b. Cheater sneaks out in the middle of the night, returning much later after “going for a ride.”
c. Soon after, Cheater and Chump go out for an uneventful night of socializing with a mutual friend, and upon returning home, Cheater ambushes Chump in an unprovoked physical attack, beginning with a sucker-punch from behind in the aparment stairwell.
Chumptacular:
It took me a while to really figure out that I was being abused … sometimes physically, but mostly verbally and emotionally. And that the abuse was the most important part of the whole shit storm. The cheating was just an outgrowth of the abuse.
I’m so sorry you suffered abuse as well. Your Cheater is an abominable excuse for a human.
@Chumptacular, you said this:
“Not just looking at other females, but beholding them. Looking at them like he is a starving man at an All You Can Eat Buffet.”
This is the most accurate description I’ve ever seen of this type of behaviour. About a year into our relationship, my ex started doing it, too, along with the “bobble-head” type ogling. I remember trying to talk to him about this about a year before D-day. I kept it really rational, no yelling or crying, just providing examples and an explanation of how it made me feel. Blank stare, response with absolutely no traction. I’d never encountered anything like it in any previous relationship, so I figured it must be my own issue. Boy, I wish I’d known then what I know now. I’d never encountered anything like it in any previous relationship because I’d never been in a relationship with a psycho! In retrospect, I can’t think what was worse: the “beholding” or the (non) response he had to my reaction. I guess it amounts to the same thing in the end.
The funniest thing is that about 6 months after this conversation, we were in the ER being assisted by a very nice and good-looking, very professional doctor, and ex lost his ever-lovin mind! As soon as the doc stepped out of the cubicle, ex turned to me and started accusing me of “coming on to” the doctor and making all these ridiculous statements, like “I guess that’s the type of guy who really turns you on,” etc. etc. He was enraged, and I was so stunned and embarrassed that I could hardly think how to respond; there had been absolutely nothing flirty about the encounter. The whole thing just came out of left field. Worse, I’m sure the doctor heard everything. And after we left the hospital, that’s all ex could talk about for the rest of the day.
Heh. Just goes to show that they really do operate from the same playbook. Handy tip #32: Accuse your partner of the very behaviour you’re guilty of (but your partner isn’t).
Thank goodness you are moving on from this Chumptacular
.
Flags
love bombing, charm, need for immediate gratification and poor impulse control (for food treats, gadgets, treats), claims of ‘no friends’, not getting presents “I’m not sure what to get you” little time or interest in our children. Intense work friendships with female colleagues, flirting, provocative social media posts and becoming engrossed in porn.
Chumptacular, I found a set of house keys in the glovebox, and a blouse under the seat of his car. I asked only about the blouse, but took the keys. He claimed that the blouse was something he had found at a gas station and used to wash his windshield. He did not ask about the missing keys. The blouse was clean and smelled fresh and the windshield was dirty. I think that was the point of no return. At some point bullshit starts to stink too much to ignore.
I only received great gifts if we were celebrating at his Mom and Dad’s house for Christmas. If we were at home for a holiday then he would suggest a “joint” gift which was code for, “I have found something expensive and overpriced that I want!” Our very last Christmas at his parents house was extra crappy though . At the time I didn’t realize he was involved with Schmoopie. He claimed he didn’t have the time to shop so I bought thoughtful gifts for his Mom and Dad and him…..oh and gifts for me too! I feel so foolish even admitting that! He did NOTHING! He was just present for Christmas! I guess he thought that was good enough! Wow! What a crappy memory!
So many things you listed Chump Lady mirror my 13 years with eh#2, just like all these other Chumps that have shared today.
1. We met online, talked on the phone for about two weeks before we meet in person. We were saying ILY right away, talking marriage, etc. Within a very short time, he was living with me…exh#1 divorced me, I was 6 weeks out from that divorce when he contacted me online…it was fast and furious … back then, I would him, “Why do you love me? ” to which he would always reply, “because you complete me in every way.” (Insert eyeroll, gag, and a head shake)
2. We met just before the cell phone boom, so he would stay in contact with me via messenger all day long. We got cell phones about 2 years after we got together, and he would text me all day while I was at work, especially when he wasn’t working, which was a lot in those first couple of years. It was like he needed constant attention and entertainment from me.
#s 3-5 don’t apply to me, because he moved in so quickly after meeting him
6. He NEVER paid bills, 99% of his money covered gas & groceries, when he would bother to work, especially the first few years we were together. I got/get paid once a month, if my check didnt cover something, unless it was something he needed or wanted, it didnt get paid. I was lucky if I could get myself a Happy Meal with what was left over of my check, but him? Oh, he would not be denied!!! Even if he wasn’t working, he would get himself hair-cuts, CDs, online shopping, you name it… bastard
#7 – this one is so true!!! He NEVER had friends of his own. Ever. He would leech onto my friends, family, co- workers, IF he made a friend on his own, it didnt last long. The last 3-4 years we were married, he had a “crew” at work that I never met. Ever. Those nights he would go AWOL all night without calling texting, and wouldn’t answer my text /calls, he claimed he was with them all night and was “too drunk” to drive home, but would hardly ever drink with me
8. He wasn’t vague about his past, but his stories each time he told them, they were just a little different, always played the victim…his exes all cheated on him, always ended in some huge dramatic fashion
9. “I mistook sex for intimacy ” Yep! Me!!! Biggest lesson learned in all of this shit-sandwich.
10. “He was shit at gift-giving.” This times a million!!! First Christmas, he got me a mouse pad and speakers for my computer- that he used more than me of course. Most of the time after that erormous epic fail, he woukd demand that I share a wish list on Amazon or tell him exactly what I wanted. Buying gifts for him was a giant pain in the ass. He expected me to “know” what he liked, wanted.
He and I shared MY car for the first THREE years we were together. Ugh. Anyway, when he drove it, even when he was unemployed, he would drop me off and pick me up…Anyway, he would switch my front plate to HIS choice of front plate…he would scrape of my stickers —- one of them came from his mom!!!! It said, “Cinderella, proof that a pair of shoes can change.your.life!”… another one said, “I’m a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie world”. Still pissed at him for that…
This is how love-bombed I was at first: when we first met, he told me he had been in military boot camp, and he was leaving said – military for me because he found eveything he wanted and needed in me, ugh…in reality, he had been locked up for a felony and in lieu of state penitentiary, he opted for a short-term boot camp
Malignant Narcissists like exh2 never deserved me, I’m not settling again. I would rather stay single the rest of my life than be with another asshole like him.
Our first Christmas together, we went to the Mall and he bought 2 identical black rock and roll T-shirts, Men’s Size Large. He kept one and gave me the other for my Christmas present. I gave it back because it was too big.
Things I will never deal with again in a relationship:
–Lack of sincerity.
–Ogling.
–Need to be the shiniest object in the room at all times.
–Need for endless ego stroking.
–Porn-driven sexual tastes.
–Threats, intimidation, pushes, cornering, blocking, grabbing, or any type of physical intimidation.
–Put-downs, dismissals, undermining, sarcasm, constant criticism.
–Inappropriate, bigoted, sexist “jokes.”
Thinking today that cheater was so hard to buy gifts for. He hated surprises and would almost always manage to figure out what a gift was before he opened it and then have this proud smirk if he was right.
If he wants something, he just buys it so I could never come up with ideas. I would get so stressed over gifts and always felt like I failed.
I also noticed all the gifts he gives come from the catalogues he shops from for himself. Hence the clothes he bought me always seemed so masculine. For the kids, he would get them t shirts and even buy the exact same one two years in a row. Never the right size.
Mine was also expert at making you feel really loved when he was with you, but then leaving an un-easy feeling of doubt once he had gone.
Difficult to describe but now I know what was really going on, it is interesting how your body does know something is not right.
He also could never ever laugh at himself.
Another red flag! Wow , how did I ignore this:
Most birthdays of mine, he was away skiing with his mates saying we could go out for dinner a few days earlier.
He did however pay for said meal.
Why did I not think that was shitty?? Why did I just accept being second best option like that? On my birthday????
This was Kaa too. It would be an up hill fight to get him to do anything in the home that didn’t directly impact on him. Procrastination, resistantance, doing it badly then saying it didn’t matter.losing his temper while he was doing it. So when things needed fixing I tried to do it my self. I spent 22 years hoping he would start to engage. Then Told when he left that he didn’t feel needed.
1. When I would be ill I’d see him exactly twice a day. When he woke up, and when he went back to bed. During the day: nothing. I would be in bed all day and not see him. Not checking up on me. Not asking if I needed anything. Not bringing me soup or orange juice. Nothing.
2. He kept wanting me to give him back massages and “crack his back”. But when I asked him to return the favour he’d say he didn’t know how to. Instead he gave me a bag of frozen peas “just put that on your back”. I got tired of cracking his back pretty fast.
3. Always telling me I didn’t fold his laundry the right way. He was very particular about the folding. My way wasn’t good enough.. and he liked to show me how to shake out shirts before drying so they didn’t wrinkle.
4. Once I got sick on a plane. I felt like crap for the 20 hour flight. I got no attention from him (“I thought I should let you rest”). He was chatting to the woman on the other side of him the whole flight. He told me to not make a scene when I fainted as we got off the plane.
5. 3 months later I was away for a weekend. I got back. He said: guess what? Amanda was here and I showed her around over the weekend. I knew no Amanda. Turned out it was the woman from the plane. He took her out to dinner too as she was a poor tourist.
6. My friend who knew him before she met me always thought he was an asshole. Being condescending etc. Tteating others like servants. She never said why she didn’t like him until I left him. I should have pressed the issue.
7. I get headaches easily from smells etc. Which he was well aware off.. yet he still sprayed all kinds of stinking deo in the bedroom, in the car, in small spaces.. bought a stinky spray thing for the living room. Spraying bug spray everywhere.
Totally no consideration for me.
I see these comments and am just saddened by the cruelty displayed by our own spouses as they withheld funds, treated them badly, cheated on, laughed at, lied consistently about or to them, disregarded their feelings and humiliated them with no remorse. Some may disagree, but in my eyes, a cheater is an abuser. He or she may not exhibit physical violence, but the emotional trauma of being treated this way from a spouse is just horrific to me. Sometimes I kick myself for not paying attention to those early warning signs.
http://intheknowwithro.blogspot.com/2014/11/cheating-is-part-of-domestic-abuse.html
Yes and this abuse carries over to the children because while he is out getting his needs met by schnoopie, he is not their for them either.
I completely agree.
It is definitely abusive to manipulate a spouse (cheater: I married you, so you will do stuff for me …. while I’m out fucking around).
It is definitely abusive to lie to a spouse. (cheater: Yes, you should throw yourself into our marriage, taking care of the house, birthing our kids, planning for the future … while I’m fucking around. You would decide to do this even if I told you about fucking around, right?)
It is definitely abusive to put a spouse’s life (and even a child’s life) at risk on purpose (cheater: condom? damn things are uncomfortable … besides, I haven’t caught an STD yet!)
Then there’s the
* Blameshifting (cheater: this shit is your fault even though you didn’t know about it and had no control over my actions)
*Gaslighting (no, I didn’t eat dinner with anyone that night … I was just really hungry, which is why there are two dinners on the receipt)
* Disrespect (cheater: of course I’ll ignore you in front of other women … how else will I get in their pants?)
* Humiliation (cheater: it’s so cool to parade you around in front of my OWs…and at least half the town knows!)
* Degradation (cheater: only sluts wear stuff like that, so only wear that for me … in the bedroom … after I come home from fucking around)
*Double-bind (cheater: you are a crappy spouse because you don’t make enough money … you are a crappy spouse because you work too much)
*Emotional Neglect (cheater: so what your dad just died? People die. Get over it already.)
*Irrational, non-constructive Criticism (cheater: but I eat at exactly 5:00 p.m. and it is now 5:01 p.m. and you don’t have my plate in front of me. You can’t even get this one, simple thing right)
It’s all abusive. It’s egregiously devaluing the life of a fellow human. This is, in part, why the entire ordeal is so traumatic.
Seriously, I wouldn’t treat strangers this way, let alone someone I swore to love, honor, and cherish.
RO – Absolutely you are 100% correct! Cheating is abuse!
It’s perpetrating a fraud on a loved one. It’s incredible abuse.
Thank you for posting that link, it’s so interested to read it.
Oh yeah. The moving fast thing. He claimed we were “soul mates” within weeks of meeting. I reeled internally, and I should have gotten out there and then. But I didn’t.
He had no friends nearby. They were a state over. And he never went to see them. Eventually, I became the one arranging trips to see them. When it turned out he’d lied to his friends over the past 20 years about himself, I did get the friends in the divorce.
The gifts… UGH. I remember him getting me a bracelet. Ugly as sin, from Kay or something like that. First off, he didn’t check to see if I actually WORE bracelets. (I don’t) And second, it was too small. I had just given birth to our first child. I wrote it off and we went back together to get me something. He got me a video camera, which was poor at the time of purchase. And that I didn’t want. Not a video person, I prefer photos. The flowers he got me were always garish.
All of his exes were all crazy, psycho or bitches. That should have been enough to send me running. He also had the audacity to tell me his previous ex had called the night before I landed, and offered herself to him. He had been a “good boy” and told her no. I was already then competing for his attention with another woman.
Ohwell, it’s over. And I hope I learned something from it.
I just remembered another stupid gift my ex got me. I had just given birth to our daughter over Mother’s Day weekend. Do you know what was waiting for me at home for my Mother’s Day present? A canary. Yes, because I needed ONE MORE THING to take care of besides my newborn baby and my two ornery stepsons who were only five and six years old.
Sadly, I forgot to give the bird water and it died. I didn’t do it on purpose. I just forgot!
This is an awesome post today!! My cheater always reacted abnormally to situations, never ever normally. One of the posters wrote about this on the boards and it makes so much sense. His thinking was definitely off and I’d keep asking him why he did or said what he said, and he would give even more bizarre explanation. I’d find myself arguing with him over his behavior since it wasn’t normal. But he thought he was RIGHT.
Also, whenever I’d recount a situation and state how X should have done the right thing, he’d automatically defend X’s misbehavior and argue with me to death about it. And I’d tell myself, it’s so bizarre he’s not siding with me, as it’s morally the right thing to do. But hey, Narcissists always side with other Narcissists.
And he was the worst gift giver ever! He had come to stay with me for 10 days at some point and I took real good care of him, prepared all the meals, and to thank me, he got me flowers for $2.99 which died in 2 days. He had left the price underneath the vase. When I saw this, I tore him a new one and dumped him instantly. It was the last straw.
There were signs all along he was F-ed up in the head. And his abnormal reaction to all situations was the biggest sign of all.
I dont know everyone… are there smoking gun signs?? This is such a life altering painful thing to go through, I know the need to find out ways to protect myself. No horror movie can compare to what went on inside my head after during the devaluation, betrayal and discarding process. I think everyone else is having this reaction of protection.
I do think that think that there is a percentage of truly mentally disordered and ill people that you can protect yourself against. That being said, I think my cheater (and many that sound like him) are run of the mill turd like partners, that don’t have tons of indicators until weeelll into the relationship.
We dated 7 years before getting married (no rushing into things); He was a pretty generous and nice person (to others and friends); Had a lot of long term male friends; Was fun to be with; Nice to animals
He also had way more female friends (and many seemed inappropriate to me throughout our relationship); He was horrible at giving gifts (if he ever gave); He was a borderline hoarder; He was a procrastinator; and he thought he was in the 1% intelligence bracket (hahahhaha! this still makes me laugh) among other self important thoughts/behaviours
The one thing I will take with me, however, is the behavior he displayed that I always knew wasnt right all throughout our relationship. He never initiated wanting to spend time with me (non sexually). It was always me instigating trips, dinners, really anything. That is not something anyone should put up with and accept in a partnership. I obviously felt that this was all i deserved and I did not value myself enough to think that this was wrong. We laughed so much when we hung out, I ASSUMED he liked being with me. I was wrong.
Only be with people that WANT to spend time with you. Not all the time (Im no fool, I was in a relationship for 21 years ;), just a good chunk of time.
That is my two cents!
How about the cheaters who leave you when you are sick? Or don’t help out the SAHM who gets ill? But if THEY get sick you had better be Florence Nightengale on steroids and see to their every need! My Prince would always throw up in my car. Not on the floorboards but on the instrument panels. Then he would run into the bed and leave me to clean up the awful mess! Mine left and knew I had cancer! He told my adult kids they would have to “handle it” because he didn’t want to give me false hope. Oh but when he got cancer a few months later he and Schmoopie just couldn’t believe we turned our backs on such a sick man!! Really??
Yes! They’re very selfish.
I mostly felt happy and supported throughout my marriage, but there are some very memorable moments that stick out when he wasn’t there for me: 1) when we came home from the hospital after a miscarriage and I needed comforting, he disappeared; 2) during a later pregnancy, our baby was premature and I needed an amniocentesis to check for lung maturity, but he wouldn’t leave work to be with me; 3) the day after that baby was born, I talked with him on the phone to ask if he was going to visit me and the baby in the hospital (this particular hospital didn’t allow dads to sleep in the room), and he said no, that he wanted to go to lunch with his buddy who he hadn’t seen for a while; and 4) when I had gall bladder surgery, he took me to the hospital and stayed for the surgery, and then when to work afterwards, leaving my parents to take me home and spend the rest of the day with me.
At the end of our marriage, he complained that I wasn’t supportive of him a few months prior when he had shingles. Shingles! Which is triggered by stress, surely caused by his cheating! And which is NOT something that makes a person bed-ridden. I was sympathetic at the time he had it, but what was I supposed to do? Make him soup? Prop up his pillows?
I will ALWAYS remember how empty and alone I felt after our miscarriage, during my amnio, etc. And THOSE when during the good days of our marriage. I deserved better then, and I deserve better now. We all do.
Correct here! Upon being chronically sick and in pain is when he started treating me horribly and in-turn his cheating. How much more despicable can one get? Giving birth and still in pain one week later? Oh you betcha he didn’t care. Six weeks later and I’m still in pain yet I’m the one hauling laundry up and down the stairs. He never helped nor offered even when asked. Instead he was on his private computer starting a blog complaining about me. I wish I could have read it then and I would have left sooner.
Mine never showed any of those signs listed above except the horrible at gift giving. He always gets me things he likes. In fact the one holiday he was physically cheating he bought her a more expensive dinner than my stupid holiday gift. He spent more time with her on that date than he had with me in years. Once I found out a couple of weeks later, I told him he is to never buy me a gift from that store ever again. I will only expect the expensive quality from a good store.
I had a small group of friends when I met and started dating XH. We initially did activities together but I always felt uncomfortable when he was around my friends so I eventually gave up my friends. I have read about narcissists “being charming outside of the relationship.” I was just too insecure when he was around them and just too afraid that he would develop feelings for one of them to keep them as friends. It was not like any of them were flirting with him. One of them even told me that I should break up with him because she thought I could do better. I would say that a red flag is the feeling that you have to give up your friends to keep your relationship intact or that you cannot keep your friends because somehow they threaten your relationship. Once I had given up my circle of friends, my friends became all the people who were his friends, that I only saw with him.
now that i’ve been reading here — just realized i saw the same signs! he did rush being exclusive but i made him wait. when i got pregnant we lived together and i was shouldering majority of the bills as he switched from one job to another. we got married after our kid was born.
now with his OW, he did rush to date and move in with her because. i see the same MO. i’m about to start the divorce process soon.
i sent an email to OW just to FYI her that her boyfriend is still married to me. she still continued to be with STBX.
i’m just glad that i am not the parasite’s host now. it’s her. so best of luck. cause my STBX is also cheating on her (still meets women in craigslist and has 2 dating profiles where he chats with other women) and she doesn’t have a clue. i’m just glad i am not the one he is chumping!
Mine once gave me a cast-iron frying pan. Pretty brave for a man that was leading a long-term double life with an OW…
He also screwed up my birthdays– once going (alone) to someone else’s 50th birthday party. He said that my b-day was less important because it wasn’t a round year. Another year, he had made plans for a ‘boys’ night out’, having apparently gotten the date of my birthday confused. When I got upset about that and insisted he cancel, he said no. Why? Because I was so upset, I had already ruined the evening, so there was no point in his cancelling his other plans.
I’ve never bothered checking, but I suspect that he didn’t spend that night with the boys.
Sitting here this morning thinking about birthdays and wondering how long it it takes to be confident in completely trusting that he sucks..
Two things came to mind with birthdays. First, middle son was born a week early and came into the world a couple of days before cheater’s birthday. I always sensed he felt upstaged by son and now I think that was yet another red flag. He started planning his birthdays away from us even before he left.
Second, yesterday was daughter’s birthday and we had a wonderful dinner party out with family and one of her friends- no tension just laughing and a good time. I didn’t have that what if he is not having a good time stress.
I did, however, have those intrusive thoughts about him occasionally, “what if I am wrong, what if it’s me?” Those thoughts should have been alleviated when I got the mail and there were two cards for daughter, one from stbx containing a $15 gift card (he is not strapped for money) and the second from his mom signed love grandma and p.s. We miss you. Dd read the cards, laughed and shook her head.
I didn’t say anything but all I could think is cheater is off playing with schmoopie and grandma doesn’t give the estrangement more than a p.s. and does not suggest they end it. Oh, and the conditional love. Grandma also very comfortable financially- she doesn’t give her traditional checks to the children who “neglect their father”
So another birthday down and Stbx and grandma have both shown they suck, when will I trust?
My X had these characteristics but on some of them there was a different spin, worth noting I think.
#1. He moved at an amazing snail’s pace. He did not love bomb me in any way. In fact, he showed me very early that he didn’t care about me and I just didn’t believe him. He was awful to me really and yet, I convinced myself that “relationships are hard work” and that I should be doing all the work. He wasn’t just a jerk to others, he was a jerk to me. I was so stupid to marry him because he treated me like garbage in the dating phase. I did all the work in the dating phase and in the marriage. I’m convinced that the only reason he married me was because I had a job and he could use me as a meal ticket.
#2. He did call me, but it was a lot more infrequent than one who who would be in love with someone would call. The weird thing with the calling is that I couldn’t call him because he would be awful on the phone to me when I did. He had to call me because then he could be nice to me. Again, this man didn’t really love me. I was just convenient and reliable. Also, there were many periods of time when he wouldn’t call me for a week or so. Just disappeared.
#3. Yes. He did this. He treated all important dates like nothing at all. He continued this into our marriage. By the end, we were no longer celebrating Christmas because as CL says above he was awful at gifts and he would always claim poor. He had also become an Atheist and no longer believed in anything let alone celebrating a holiday. Like in #2, he would drop off the planet and not call me. We had made the decision to get married (btw, he never proposed, we just discussed it in a very boring let’s get this over with way) and shortly after that decision, he wouldn’t talk to me for a week. I called and called. Finally I dumped all of his stuff from my apartment at his apartment, which finally got his attention and then he freaked out. Sent me the meanest texts. Left really awful voicemails. When he had calmed down and started saying sorry in the texts and voicemails, I talked to him. This was a GIANT red flag if there ever was one to not marry him. Did it anyway. #facepalm
#4. Yes. This was made worse with his phone calls. He treated me really crummy on the phone and then in person, he was Mr. Charm (not wonderful or nice guy because even in person, I didn’t get that).
#5. Yes. My X did have a degree, but he couldn’t hold a job to save his life. He was a lot of talk and zero walk. He made up for that with a lot of rhetoric on why he was unemployed and couldn’t get the job that he was worth. What I saw was potential and sure, he still has potential. But that’s all I ever saw, it never materialized. I actually thought I saw the potential for him to be a good person and that’s why I married him. Kind of like when you take home a thrifted item and you paint it up and make it all cute for your house. I thought that was all we needed to do. No, I get that I was in the wrong for thinking that, but I was also very wrong to assume that he could be a good person. He can’t. Dysfunction and turmoil will follow him for the rest of his life because he’s such a crummy human being.
#6. Yes, yes YES!!!! In fact, he thought it was my duty to serve him because when that ended and he had to move in with his parents and they woudn’t accommodate him in any way, he was absolutely livid. I’m convinced he has no idea what reciprocity means.
#7. He did have friends, but they accommodated him just like I did. They put up with his antics just like I did. I had friends, but that ended after the marriage because he wanted to isolate me by making me feel like my friends weren’t good enough for him or me. He treated them like garbage too and after being terribly embarrassed one too many times, I finally let go of friends and family and he became my entire world.
#8. Yes. In fact, he rewrote his history at will. He did that about the affair and everything else too. I thought I was going mad. He would remember things completely differently than I did.
#9. Yes. This one was on me and I knew it because he told me so. We had sex and I thought he really loved me. No, he didn’t and even said so. This was just sex. And I was awful at it too as per him. But he would never tell me how we could improve, it was just up to me to know. He was some sort of Casanova (NOT) and I was supposed to treat him as such. He never initiated – even when we were married – and he just sucked all around at sex. But I was convinced it was me. There was a TON of projection going on in our sex life. A TON!
#10. Yes. Like I mentioned, we couldn’t even celebrate Christmas at the end because he was so bad at gift giving. There were a few Christmases that I had put together some really thoughtful gifts for him and he gave me nothing. Not a thing. Didn’t even make me breakfast or anything. I just told myself that Christmas isn’t about receiving but about giving. Let me tell you, it does not get any more awkward than to give a gift to your spouse and not receive anything. We had no children to boot, so it was intensely awkward. After a few years of that, I just stopped with Christmas gifts and all of that altogether. The only thing we celebrated was his birthday. It was fine to give him gifts, in fact he had a list that you could pick from, but the minute you expressed a desire for something like that – ha! This was a GIANT red flag when we were dating, I have no idea why I thought that would end when we married. Ugh.
There were so many red flags and I knew in my gut that I shouldn’t be with this guy. I forged ahead! Typing it all up is really helpful to see how stupid I really was. Thankfully we can all learn from these mistakes.
I can tick all of these ✔️ as well
Now that I am actively dating, I am so finely tuned into the NPD traits, I don’t miss a beat. Still sad that it took years of decoding the behavior to get to the point of full understanding.
I am actually a crap gift giver and my cheating ex was very good at it.
The most obvious sign was glitter, all over his shirt and face. I have no idea why I wrote that one off. Duuuuuuuhhhhhmmmmbbbbbb
That and he kept saying how he really needed sex three times a day. I thought he was kidding. He wasn’t.
A huge red flag I had which I noticed but somehow ignored was when my own father died of a stroke. He was dying for 5 days in hospital. My ex did leave work and come up to be with me (I found out later his own boss had insisted).
However whenever in the room with my father he would hide behind a newspaper, sigh deeply , and act like ” please hurry up and die, this is boring”.
When his own father was dying after a car crash, on day 2 of waiting for him to die, his mother continue with her plans for a drinks party at home.
I do think a lot of this stuff is genetic.
Just heard of a story where a woman locally has died aged 52 on holiday. Her brother refused to go to her funeral as he said ” she always got on my nerves”.
Some people are just un-believably selfish. However being so selfish means they simply do not give a stuff what other people think of them.
Warning signs and red flags that I wish I had noticed:
1. Assholio came from a family of narc cheaters: his dad was a covert narc cheater and his brother cheated for most of his 35 year marriage. I was so sure that Assholio was different from them. NOPE.
2. Projection: I can remember Assholio saying a number of times while we were dating that I “needed to be the center or attention all the time.” Nothing could be further from the truth! I am an introvert who HATES that. And I even thought at the time, “you don’t even know me, do you?” It was really he who had to be the center of attention always…
3. Chronic lateness: Assholio hated anyone telling him what to do, and any type of time constraint was seen as something to rebel against. I really wish I had paid more attention to this, because it was a very clear sign that he just did not give a shit about anyone but himself. “I hate being on anyone else’s schedule.” Um, welcome to the real world, Princess.
4. Obsession with accumulating stuff: Always had to have the newest and most expensive version of everything. Switched hobbies every six months or so, and went out and bought even more crap, while the discarded stuff gathered dust in his basement.
5. He only had a surface relationship with his family because it looked good. It was basically out-of-sight, out-of-mind. He just showed up for family gatherings to charm the crowd for a while, but never truly cared about any of them outside of that.
“Assholio”…. hahahahhaha
Hi all, nice to see I am not the only “crazy” (as my wife would call me) one out there. I am not alone.
I was lucky enough to come across “Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life” yesterday, and find my way here to CL.com
Almost 8 months from Dday, still a wreck in some form or another everyday. We’ve been married 20 yrs, together for 25.
One of the red flags I had, and one of the funniest:
A few weeks before my 50th birthday, we were lying in bed and she says, “For your birthday I will let you fuck whoever you want. I need to get you laid.”
Well I was completely caught off guard. Where was this coming from, why would she say such a thing…..was not aware that the 50th is the “free pussy” birthday.
She didn’t just bring it up that one time, was almost everyday leading up to the birthday. I passed it off as her just being goofy and playful….but once Dday came, it all made sense. My lovely wife was looking for justification for her misdeeds….and no I did not sleep with anyone, I have morals and values.
I’m very happy to have found this site! I look forward to navigating my “shitstorm” with help from all of you.
Be strong Chumps!
Welcome 50 Chump – sorry this is late, but as sad as it is you’re in this new club, these are the most awesome group of ‘survivors’ who can all relate to one of 100’s of stories. If you feel yours is the worst? There’s always somebody with ~worser~. Or possibly not near as bad as yours. But, there is this Playbook – see……and….
50 Chump – I think if my spouse had brought up that scenario (did she want to watch?) is very bizarre. If you weren’t suspecting cheating on her part, I’m sure it never struck you as infidelity experiments.
I was completely naive that the town-bike had him doing threesomes.
Too bad he didn’t mention the activity to me, because I was sex-starved and might have considered it for a very brief second.
It totally blew me away that this would have interested him.
He was horrible at sex (make that non-motivated) and I guess I have nothing to miss.
I’ll be 50 next month. My cheater told me on my daughters 8th birthday he was cheating and he told me on my 49th birthday he was leaving me. Th last year has been a major major min fuck, but I do feel like I am healing and coming out of it. At least that’s how I feel today.
I do resent being this old and being left, and I resent being a single parent again (This is my second divorce. The first one I had 5 kids and this one I had 3 kids) I was told he was a cheater when I married him, but I spackled the hell out of that. He wouldn’t cheat on ME….there was something wrong with his 1st wife and he just wanted out. DUMB DUMB DUMB.
At least I was not the OW. At least I’ve got a little dignity.
A bit early but Happy Birthday Sunflower! We are both Virgos, as I will be 51 next month. Sometimes I wish I could go back in years to change some things, but as that is not possible at least I can hang my hat on that as things get finalized eventually, I’ll still be the stand up man I’ve always been. One that has worked two jobs to put the kids through private schools, done the yard work and house work, and now if I don’t cook dinner, I don’t eat lol.
I guess my wife felt lonely and under appreciated as I took care of the family while she stayed home most days and did nothing. Her room looks like a episode of hoarders.
Down the road, when the sun rises it will rise for me, give me a warm hug, and say,” Bout time you left that bitch.” Gotta love Mother Nature.
My ex husband (since the end of March) said he was lonely because I spent too much time on Facebook.
Bullshit.
When he moved out of my house and took his crap with him, my house quit stinking. I walked in one day after work and realized it smelled GOOD in there. I was no longer tripping over God know what in the hell he brought home that day.
It was a nice Aha moment.
My birthday is mid-September. My daughter is due to have my 5th grandchild the day after my birthday, so I am gunning for our little Anna-Rose to be born on my 50th. I can’t keep the day forever and I just as well pass it on to my granddaughter, LOL.
I got the equivalent of a tie-dyed license plate on our anniversary from my ex before she was my ex.
She was deep in the dark heart of her affair at the time, although I didn’t know that yet
I bought her a really nice gift from an art museum. Apparently she forgot about me and decided to give me a two dollar bag of peanuts that she has in her pocketbook.
At the time I actually thought it was pretty funny, but I didn’t know what was going on behind that at the time.
My oldest son was standing nearby when she gave me the gift and the look on his face was priceless. Since then he makes sure to give me a bag of peanuts at every holiday!
Aaaah such a cherished memory of my beautiful marriage!
As sad as that moment must have been, it’s hilarious after you stand back a bit.
It’s great your son has an excellent sense of humor!
that. It’s hilarious.
Love it!
Ha! I got mechanical foot massager for my 40th birthday. Guess who loved foot massages obsessively, and loved anything robot like. Not me. It was two of his favorite loves combined in one. I was so depressed. I was expecting jewellery. My daughter even worked in a jewellery store, he could have got a big discount.
Zee – I feel your pain there on the ‘decade’ b’days or anniversaries.
Not one thing of value to show for it and provide great memories.
No fancy trips.
No fancy dinners.
No fancy gifts.
It was a given at 36 yrs.
We definitely could have afforded Hawaii (w/o taking him mom and grandmother along)
To show how pathetic it got, at the very end, we bought each other a coffee pot.
He bought one he liked (for me).
I bought one I liked (for him).
When we split – we each got the coffee pot we bought for ourselves.
I guess that’s a sign we were both done, and tired of being disappointed that I have nothing to show that’s meaningful from him, in over 3 decades. Asshole.
If I had slept with somebody, it would have made her choice(s) right…..a eye for a eye thing. When Dday came 3 months later, I asked her how she could do such a thing. Her first response was “Well, you cheated on me!” I said “No I have not.”
“Never?” she says. “No, never.” I said.
“Well I thought you had. Besides, nothing happened,
he’s just a friend.”
Evidently I married the woman Biz Markie was rapping about back in day lol…..
Best part is she still says we are not getting divorced,
f’ing narc!
That is EXACTLY what I asked him when he told me. “What possessed you to do such a thing?!” I asked him.
“I thought you were having an affair too.” he said.
I looked him in the eye, furious and shocked at the same time and pointed in his face, “YOU should have fucking ASKED me!!!”
It was a bullshit answer and he knew it.
He also wanted me to kick him out and I wouldn’t. I told him he had a decision to make and that he’d better get it figured out.
Two weeks later, on my birthday, he said he was leaving and he wasted no time changing bank accounts, getting a new PO Box, and kicking me off the car insurance.
“He also wanted me to kick him out and I wouldn’t. I told him he had a decision to make and that he’d better get it figured out.”
I’m sorry but this sentence stayed with me all day. (and it was a busy day)
Just curious why you didn’t kick him out? If ever, that is the best time because they leave with their tail between their legs and you (at least appear) have the upper hand. Control, finally. Well, for me, the anger had all control.
Why was it *his* decision to make?
What was it he had to *figure out*?
(seemed he already did??)
I found C/L not a moment-too-late about 4 yrs ago.
She and C/N became my Bible.
Besides, I was the one choosing whether *I* wanted to keep *Him* – tables were turned and he was caught completely off guard when I changed the locks on the house after I kicked him out (who knows if it was legal – he was afraid of the legal things I bluffed away to him.
And, immediately served him with divorce papers. He was not expecting that at all.
There were certainly times that I wondered if I was doing the right “hard-assed” stuff I read about on here, or if the internet was, indeed, a pack of crazies and I was about to throw the 36 yr marriage right out the exit door…no looking back….no contact (not easy)…and take all the advice putting it into action.
What really drove me though, was I wasn’t going to let anybody **decide** to choose me or the other woman. I didn’t ask the X once. He didn’t have a choice. Hardest thing I ever did was not pick-me-dance. It was just over.
TOTAL deal-breaker and I don’t care what *they* want; they already stole too much.
My best- and good luck.