Cheating Wife Blames Poor Communication

cheating wife blames

His cheating wife blames him for her affair, saying it was his “poor communication” that drove her to it. Is he at fault?

****

Hi Chump Lady,

Background: 38 male here. Married. Wife cheated. Did all the fun stuff: they work in the same industry. Hid it from me. I found out. She did the whole DARVO thing then the trickle thing. We are still together because I am conflict avoidant and trying every tactic under the sun before resorting to divorce. 

Here’s the current thing I’m wrapping my head around:

She keeps saying she needs better communication from me.

She keeps saying that she has faced poor communication from me for years. And she felt unable to share difficult things because I have such a hard time engaging with them, and most often I just shut down. With all that pent up stuff, she felt unheard and unloved. Quality time is her top love language, so she makes it seem as though I failed there. 

Is this something cheaters do?

Is this her asking for some kind of overture that I’m not abandoning the relationship? (Oh yeah, she has a serious fear of abandonment, btw). Is there anything of material here, or is this just another way that cheaters shift blame onto spouses?

Thanks!

Moron Communicator

****

Dear Moron Communicator,

So, your cheating wife blames her wandering genitals on your lack of communication? Huh.

She felt unable to share difficult things because I have such a hard time engaging with them

Who’s the moron with the communication problem here? She is. Apparently your wife can only express her unhappiness with you through a secret double life you were unaware of.

How exactly were you supposed to engage with that?

Yes, of course she’s blameshifting.

We’re going to untangle this mindfuckery two ways. First, with a giant whack to the obvious — we don’t make people abuse us. Our faults real or imagined do not drive people to cheat. There are many ethical ways to express unhappiness with your partner — therapy, difficult conversations, or divorce lawyers. But cheaters don’t get to claim you’re just terrible enough to cheat on, but not quite terrible enough to divorce. It’s total bullshit.

Second, let’s agree for the sake of argument you’re an awful communicator. You stonewall, you shut down, you need to convey messages via carrier pigeon, whatever. Do I get to slam your face into a wall?

What? No Tracy, that would be completely unethical and disproportionate to the offense.

Okay, let’s say I stop short of physical violence. Can I steal your bicycle?

NO! That has nothing to do with communication!

Yeah, but I’m unhappy.

Do you see how dumb that argument is?

If you go down the rabbit hole of her (nebulous) unhappiness with your communication — it’s a moving goal post. Her happiness — WHICH ONLY SHE CONTROLS — can wax and wane. Today she feels unloved. Tomorrow she didn’t like the inflection in the way you said “toast.”

Blameshifting is insidious because it makes the victim feel like they have a sense of control. Oh! If I only fix this quality that my partner is unhappy with, I’ve solved the problem. Well, yes, we should strive to be our best selves for our partners. We should legitimately listen to their grievances with us. But doing so — or failing to do so — has ZERO effect on UNETHICAL behavior.

If I never raise my voice, you’ll never steal my bicycle.

If I learn to speak in “I” statements, you’ll never slam my face in a wall.

We don’t control other people. We only control ourselves.

If shifting blame fails, next your cheating wife will try the false equivalency.

Well, her clandestine affair was equally as bad as your communication styles, so we’re even!

Wrong again.

With all that pent up stuff, she felt unheard and unloved. Quality time is her top love language, so she makes it seem as though I failed there. 

Sounds like bad therapy speak used to justify her affair. I’m sure your “love language” was not being cuckolded by her coworker. You’re not the failure here, she is.

So long as she’s goading you into the pick me dance, trying to get you to improve yourself for the honor of her ambivalence, you have NOTHING TO WORK WITH.

Ergo, resort to divorce.

We are still together because I am conflict avoidant and trying every tactic under the sun before resorting to divorce. 

My chumpy friend, you need to learn to grab the conflict by the horns and confront it. Otherwise, you’re in a marriage where your wife is going to continue to express herself with cheating and blame you for it.

Don’t accept her blameshifting. And start protecting yourself. If she wonders why you hired a divorce attorney, tell her you felt “unseen and unloved.” And her communication failure drove you to it.

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CryMeARiver
CryMeARiver
1 month ago

OMG CL, I love those sock puppets!
The blaming of the chump – it’s like dancing on a moving carpet. You work on one thing only to find out there’s some other way that you’re not good enough, then something else and something else.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago
Reply to  CryMeARiver

Yup, there’s always more. Trickle truth is a killer, you always have to ASSUME more.

Waitedfartoolong
Waitedfartoolong
1 month ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Absolutely! In IRC my therapist warned me that almost invariably there is more, much more than you first were led to believe and it is worse than you imagined.On discovery, the cheaters first instinct is to minimize followed by progressively deeper tranches of justification and a growing impatience at the betrayed for ” being so set, and not over it already”. It took a
year of Marriage detective to get the truth that my wife had multiple affairs and the first episode of peripatetic lady parts was not a short two month coworker ” fling” as she had portrayed her infidelity, but rather A fifteen month full on affair.in which she hsd.fallen deeply in love with the surgeon who wss her supervisor. It all sucks majorly, and hurts like a m free even now 52 years later.

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
1 month ago

Notice, too, how she changes the focus and subject away from her cheating by making it about your “poor” communication. That’s part of the Cheater “game” as well.

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago

It’s all your fault!!!!!!! The cheater is on the way to Sainthood

Involuntary Georgian
Involuntary Georgian
1 month ago

Two things can be true at the same time without being related to each other.

She can be an irredeemable traitor and you can also be a poor communicator. As CL points out, the latter does not justify the former – or even really explain it, since lots of us have spouses who are poor communicators and don’t go out and commit adultery.

Since we don’t know you we can’t really say. But it is important to remember that your wife has a vested interest in making her screwup your fault; she does not have your best interests at heart – in fact, her interests are probably in conflict with yours – so you should not accept what she says as gospel truth.

If you believe she may have a point, this might be an appropriate topic to discuss with a friend or a therapist. For yourself, and perhaps for the benefit of relationships in the future. But don’t accept her premise that your poor communication (assuming it even exists) causes or excuses her adultery.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

We’re all works in progress. What normal person doesn’t seek to “improve communication,” iron out flaws and grow over time? Part of the reason we form intimate relationships is to have company in which to do this, a sounding board and practice. It’s also a way to learn self acceptance. Like my mother always said, we may like people for their accomplishments but tend to love them for their flaws. There’s nothing so reassuring for an average person as feeling known and still loved.

But abusers have the opposite effect. It can be a frog-boiling process that’s hard to catch at first but, ultimately, they freeze the growth process in people around them since they scan for, collect and weaponize normal human flaws and missteps or anything sensitive in our histories, making it too dangerous to introspect around them much less talk about these things. And that which we don’t open up about starts to feel shameful by default even if it’s really all garden variety stuff.

Maybe it’s not true for everyone but I think a lot of emotional abuse survivors, myself included, emerge from these destructive situations feeling like we’re a mess of deeply embarrassing flaws. We may have gradually found ourselves clamming up and shutting down over the years just on some gut instinct that anything we say can and will be used against us. For the sake of continuity, we may have unconsciously stopped opening up about certain things with close friends even outside our primary relationships. It’s emotionally isolating and isolation alone can start to expand the perception of flaws.

So the OP thinks he’s a “moron” communicator instead of just an regular dude who grew up around other regular dudes who bond over sports and probably would have, like a lot of average dudes, developed new communication skills in a primary relationship with a safe and loving partner. Or they would have learned and grown together as long as everyone had the same good intentions. And then, as happens when groups of regular dudes grow up and form loving, safe primary relationships in an age that’s allowing men to open up a bit more than in past generations, they all incrementally start communicating better together and sometimes talking about things other than work or sports or politics.

But the OP might have– for damned good reason as it turns out– stalled this process just on a gut sense that he wasn’t entirely safe. So now he might find himself feeling a little bit like the bs his FW spewed at him (as a big blameshift when she was caught banging a coworker) might be, well, a little bit true. He found himself clamming up a bit over the years or simply never went through the regular dude process of developing new communication skills in a primary relationship.

Why? I think self preservation. There’s another way to look at the “flaw” of regular dude communication hitches: Which is to thank his lucky stars he didn’t tell that predatory asshole MORE about himself or open up more about his hopes, dreams and fears simply so that she could weaponize those things against him when caught with her literal pants down. Even if she never previously showed the tendency to blameshift or “DARVO,” the fact that she eventually did is proof enough for me that some deeply unconscious, lizard brain instinct in survivors picks up on the potential.

I think that by accusing him of lacking communication skills she was basically complaining that she wishes she had much more dirt to hurl at him but somehow he didn’t leave himself open to it. So I bow down to “Moron Communicator’s” survival skills if being a “bad communicator” is all that FW managed to come up with as a means of blaming him for her own lousy character and conduct. Take it from other chumps who had much worse things weaponized against them– it could have cut a lot deeper and been even more bamboozling and injurious.

But now comes the work in playing catch-up in self reflection, introspection and talking, talking, talking that were missed out on in the course of what turned out to be an emotionally dangerous situation. That’s why I think therapy after being chumped isn’t only to get over the psychic injuries caused by emotional abuse. It’s also to get ourselves back, make up for lost time and growth and recover anything that had been unconsciously slowed or stalled while basically living with a traitor.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

I think this is an excellent point. I tried honest, open communication with a FW. I eventually was trained out of it as it either was ignored or made things worse. Being opaque is definitely a safety measure when around a FW, whether consciously or subconsciously. They’ll ignore and abuse transparency.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

When I was in my late teens and just fell off the turnip truck, an older, very hip friend told me the dating rule of not talking about even the most minor, banal problems one has with one’s dad until that guy had been vetted to Kingdom Come. It was because, in the age of Oprah and self help, one of the biggest mindfucks that abusive types would pull was to abuse a woman and then tell her — and everyone else– her reaction to the abuse was really caused by her daddy issues. The more that creep actually knew, the worse the mindfuck and the worse the smear campaign.

God was she ever right. I started noticing certain dates prying after personal information too soon and too pointedly not one of them turned out to be really safe people. Even though I had nothing serious to tell about my background, I was so grateful for the tip and applied general caution to personal disclosure in work situations. One time some guy at work told me, apropos of nothing, that “Other people would like you more if you opened up about yourself.” Since I’d been geared to be cautious, I didn’t bite. Then a year and a half later after I got a promotion, that guy attempted what a veteran coworker called “the most staggering coup” to take my position. It involved the usual attempted misogynistic smear attempt against my mental health of course. But the guy knew little to nothing about me so it was like he was chucking tiny cocktail spears at my feet. Imagine if I’d fallen for his manipulative little ruse to pry for intel and weaknesses?

I think about some of the things I never opened up to FW about over the course of a long marriage. It used to make me feel a bit guilty and kind of baffled by my own behavior because this was some really silly stuff even my parents knew about or that I’d joked to friends about for years. Now I’m glad.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

I’ve actually suspected that for a while. I’ve told you before that I’ve wondered if abusers sometimes target the mentally ill simply for the ease of it – perhaps, easy to exploit, and always less likely to be believed. It’s very in-line.

I try to be up front with my more obvious struggles (although, I keep the descriptions generalized) as I worry about someone feeling like I “led them on” or caught them off guard when they see my more neuroatypical behavior. I also don’t want to get too close to someone who will bail because of said issues. Better they know earlier so they can make a decision then. However, this has given me a lot to think about.

Also, I’m so sorry you went through that at work! Why can’t people just be decent? At least it didn’t work! You played it smart!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

Thank you. The work thing seemed like another lifetime and I’m glad I’m out of that industry because it’s always like that.

Of course you want to weed out the bigots and cowards early. Just consider that there are other ways to do this than directly offering deeply personal information. Anyone who really understood your struggles would also understand if you didn’t feel like disclosing to randos right off the bat and would feel honored to eventually be chosen for disclosure.

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago

Change To be a better partner in the FUTURE. NOT to win this one over.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago

Right you are. My FW was a terrible communicator. I never once thought the solution to the way that made me feel was cheating. That’s idiotic. You don’t deal with relational issues by creating even bigger ones. The only reason the OP should look into the possibility of communication problems is for the sake of future relationships, not to stay with the FW.

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
1 month ago

Thank you for this

Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago

Yes, work on improving your communication for your friends, your kids and any future relationships you may have …and for YOURSELF!
Don’t, for the love of all that’s good and holy, go opening up and making yourself even more vulnerable to someone who’s already betrayed and deeply wounded you!

GayDivorcee
GayDivorcee
1 month ago

Moron Communicator – My ex-husband and I spent time on the couch of five different marriage counsellors over the course of our 15 year marriage. Each time we worked on our communication styles. Each time I hoped that this was the TIME that we had fixed the problem for good. Listen – no one is more sympathetic than me on a chump’s genuine desire to fix things. Divorce was the last thing I wanted.

Just a few problems with my approach:

  1. The only thing that happened was that my xH got some new therapeutic language with which to manipulate me. He definitely improved his techniques in taking the cheating even further underground over the years.
  2. The longer we delayed divorce, the more it was going to cost me. Believe it or not, my first D Day was 1 and half years after our wedding. Had I had the clarity of mind to divorce him then I would have saved so much $$$$$
  3. I wasted my prime years on a loser. It never got better.

As hard as it is to hear, ChumpLady is right on. Leave your cheater. It will hurt like a fucker…but if just one person is spared the nonsense I ultimately endured…it makes what I went through just a little bit worth it.

LACGAL. That is one sweet acronym. Wish I knew it 24 years ago

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
1 month ago
Reply to  GayDivorcee

Thanks. Sometimes it feels like she’s a bully in conversations, and then she gets mad at me for shutting down. Maybe I’m not the bad communicator in the grand scheme?

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

See my comment in the earlier thread. I think you were SMART to shut down considering how she ended up weaponizing anything she could about you to justify her own creepy betrayal. Frankly, I think you’ve got mad survival skills if that’s the worst she could come up with over a decade or more of studying you for pressure points. You should consider a career in intelligence services. Clearly you’re less likely to crack and spill intel or give away your personal Achilles heels while undergoing professional interrogation than average.

Conchobara
Conchobara
1 month ago

Ohhhh, I got this language too. He would tell me and everyone what a terrible temper I have while he got quieter. Now I know that it was an intentional way to make me look crazy and him reasonable but the whole time he was goading me and giving me the silent treatment to a) get me to overreact and b) get me to apologize, accept all the blame and give in to whatever it was he wanted.

I honestly believe he was the terrible communicator he claimed I was. He would say he couldn’t talk to me honestly without me getting upset but his ‘honest communication’ was rare and always hurtful (blaming me, insulting me). But if I tried to have a real conversation with him he would avoid it at all costs.

And, of course, our terrible communication was his excuse (well, one of many) to go build a secret double life for 7 years, stealing time, resources, money, etc. from our life.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

That’s very plausible. Mine used to do something similar. Cause the problem, and then berate you for said problem! Make you feel insecure, then complain about you feeling insecure. Keep you awake, then scold you for not sleeping enough. Tell you how bad you are socially, then mock you for not being social. There’s a lot of examples. Mine used to drive me to tears and then yell at me for crying a lot.

Maybe you do have communication issues, maybe you don’t. I had my issues. Impulse spending. A host of mental illness I struggle with. But FWs will also just make things up. While I can be a little awkward socially and miss little hints, people really like hanging out with me, due to how gentle and friendly I am. Ex/FW used to say I was so awkward and I’m terrible at social situations. Except when I was too nice and friendly and people liked me too much and I made him feel insecure. I didn’t realize how bullshit it was until I left him.

If you have issues, you won’t be able to figure them out until you’re away from a FW. Because FWs love to blameshift and gaslight.

Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago

I think you are a nice person. You seem to me to be what we call in Ireland , sound out!
I like Joolz Denby’s ( one of my favourite authors) definition of how the outlaw bikers in her novel “Billie Morgan” discerned people; they were either “sound” or “unsound”! You seem sound to me, because you clearly have the ability and willingness to love selflessly! That’s the most important thing IMO!

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago
Reply to  Shadow

Thank you so much! This totally made my morning. You would be, what we call here, “good people”. I hope you have an AMAZING day and life brings you even better than what you think you deserve.

Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago

Thank you CDC, and all the very best to yourself as well!

KatiePig
KatiePig
1 month ago

Oh my gosh, yes. That first paragraph… I had to read it three times because that was it exactly. It made me feel so insane and hopeless, like I could do nothing right. I don’t miss feeling like that at all.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago
Reply to  KatiePig

I’m so sorry you experienced that. The hopelessness is overwhelming – I remember feeling like I was practically drowning in it. It can be so hard to fight against that feeling of worthlessness, too, that it gives.

I hope you’re doing much better now. You definitely deserve better.

Conchobara
Conchobara
1 month ago

“Mine used to drive me to tears and then yell at me for crying a lot.”

Oh, the years of tears. I’ve been there, my friend. I’m sorry. I know how it hurts and now I know how abusive and manipulative it was.

Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago
Reply to  Conchobara

I can only remember STBX giving out to me for crying the once. My son had had a bit of a asthma attack and we’d called the out-of-hours GP who’d sent an ambulance. We both went with him and spent the entire night in A&E with him, only for him to be discharged in the morning because he was better, thanks be to God!
The trouble was, we live miles out in a small village and had no way of getting home. Even the bus would have cost a small fortune for the 3 of us and we didn’t have the money plus we’d have had to get a local bus from the hospital to the main bus station in the city centre. I was so tired and stressed, it pushed me over the edge when I realised this and I started crying. He got quite cross with me about it and snapped “Stop crying about it, will ya!”
His sister ended up coming out to bring us home but I have never forgotten how he reacted to my distress that morning!

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago
Reply to  Conchobara

Thank you. It’s at least a relief to know I’m not alone. It would almost be better, though, to be alone in the experience – knowing how it hurts, it pains me that you experienced the same. I’m so sorry.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

Have you read the study reporting that women’s tears contain a biochemical that actually reduces men’s aggression?

It’s kind of like if a shitty guy berates a woman for crying he’s saying, “Damn you! I might have done worse but you’re dousing me with abuse-reduction cooties and melting my beautiful evil!”

Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago

I suspect they convince themselves that we cry to deliberately manipulate them into stopping being horrible or into being kind, both of which goes against the grain for them and because most of what they do and say is to manipulate others anyway! I also think they KNOW very well we are genuinely upset but because they’re disordered, they don’t want to give the comfort we need ( unmet needs, anyone?!).
I like your way of putting it, it gave me a laugh!

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

Ha! That would make sense. I hadn’t heard of that!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

The issue of FWs deploying tears as part of DARVO is a separate thing. I call it the “bully tantrum” tactic. I was married to a male FW who learned this from his toxic mom who’d put on operatic, bawling displays whenever she was called out on nasty or narcy behavior.

After D-Day I began to see through it and got to the point that, when he’d be stumbling around weeping and flinging himself on furniture like a Victorian damsel in distress, I would go flat and tell him to spare me. I’m not much of a crier (causes massive headaches) and could never forget the time he drove me to tears during the affair and actually mocked me for it. I guess he developed cynical resistance to that biochemical from growing up with a crocodile crier and becoming one himself.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

Absolutely. I’m a rather weepy person depending on the phase and circumstance, although most of the time I just get teary. I make sure everyone around me knows that they don’t have to cater to my tears. Heck, I happy cry, and I definitely don’t want anyone to stop the fun for that! Crying because that’s your normal reaction while understanding that’s a personal problem, and crying to manipulate others, are definitely two different things.

Your ex-MIL becomes more and more disturbing with each post. Icky!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

Lol, regarding how disturbing my exMIL was, to quote Jeremy Irons’ best line in Reversal of Fortune, “You have no idea.”

I grew up around Italians and Greeks so expressiveness is normal to me but I think nasty people don’t get to cry.

Bluewren
Bluewren
1 month ago

Remember it’s in their best interests to make you look as bad as possible to justify their cheating.
There’s no excuse for it.
You are not to blame and didn’t ‘make’ her do anything.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago

She’s trying to put you on the defense – it’s strategy, not communication. Her goal is to keep doing what she’s doing, get what SHE wants to get while sticking you with the blame, not only so she has no responsibility for what SHE has done, but to keep you on the defensive so you can’t fight back or protect yourself. It’s pure strategy and there is nothing honest or loving in it. This woman doesn’t love you, she is using you. Maybe she doesn’t view it that way, but…..who cares. It is what it is. She probably uses other people too, I would guess that it’s her nature even if you haven’t picked up on it before. Think about it now. Even if she seems “nice” or ‘kind” at times, isn’t that just so she can get what she wants out of others? She probably has a history of this. You will never be able to understand this because YOU are not like this….the ordinary fish don’t understand the shark either. But trust that it eats. Don’t let yourself get talked into untangling this and trying to resolve it, because that becomes a PROJECT that people get committed to and then you can waste literally years (and tons of money) doing this and the end result will be the same. It is what it is. She is what she is. This is not good for you and it’s not going to work out. Ya know….a shark can’t help being a shark but that doesn’t mean you have to help them be a better shark. You need to save yourself and not get involved in this PROJECT she is presenting which ultimately only serves HER self interest, not yours. She fooled you into getting into a relationship, now she’s trying to fool you into staying in it until she is ready to leave and move on to the next target. She probably does not understand herself but…..who cares. A shark is a shark. They can be really beautiful animals but….don’t get too close!

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago

That’s the no-win situation where if you speak your mind, you get bullied into silence, then because you shut down, you’re charged with being a poor communicator. Fuckwits love to game the system so that you can’t possibly win.

Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago
Reply to  OHFFS

Yes-damned if you do and damned if you don’t! You can’t do right for doing wrong!
The double-bind that drives the victim to madness!

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago
Reply to  OHFFS

It is a way to.keep you doing the dance of their centrality. Never dance to win them, dance to be better for you!!! One day I was mopping my kitchen floor crying real tears over my husband’s affair
I had a newborn and 6 year old. I wailed and cried and I said…who.am I moping this floor for?. Who will ever appreciate me??? I said suddenly…I love a clean house, this is for me!!!!!

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago
Reply to  2xchump

Amen, sister!

Chumpcat
Chumpcat
1 month ago

Great! The first step is maybe. There is a lot of garbage out there blaming the victim. Don’t believe it. This is 100% on her. I doubt she was a loving attentive wife to you during the affair, yet you didn’t cheat because she was “checked out.”

FYI_
FYI_
1 month ago
Reply to  GayDivorcee

THIS. The LW’s wife is just co-opting pop-psych language to justify her cheating and dishonesty and lack of morals.

Last edited 1 month ago by FYI_
Stepbystep
Stepbystep
1 month ago

MC – You know who is not a poor communicator? A chumped husband who finds his way to Chump Lady and effectively summarizes his situation and question. This makes me think you’ve been trying to communicate with someone who doesn’t care.

So stop.

And DO NOT show her this blog. Read through the archives and take the steps necessary to protect your health and finances.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago
Reply to  Stepbystep

Wow, well said!!!

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
1 month ago
Reply to  Stepbystep

Thanks. I’ve lost my sense of self. This blog is helping me find it again.

New Beginnings
New Beginnings
1 month ago

I lost my sense of self too when I was married to a cheating FW. They have that way of making you doubt everything (mindfuck blender!) I am so grateful I found this blog 6+ years ago. My life is so much better now….

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

Poor communication of the chump is never the cause of cheating. Cheating is abuse. Poor communication doesn’t make someone abuse you.

Also, it’s a bit ironic – cheating requires secret-keeping, meaning the cheater isn’t communicating.

Last edited 1 month ago by Chump-Domain Cleric
Chumped in KC
Chumped in KC
1 month ago

Yeah, the blame shifting is one of the worst parts after discovery. Just part of the mind F**k that CL talks about all the time and it’s totally a real thing they do. Mine once yelled at me that “You should have done something to keep him from doing it!” Say what? I immediately yelled back, “It’s not my job to police your behavior, it’s yours”! But it had taken me almost 2 years to get to the point of refuting any and all attempts from him to blame shift, project, excuse, deflect, etc. Sigh. They really do a number on our heads. Throw us into a tail spin, traumatize us and then sit back with a beer and snacks and watch the “show” they created. Sick…just totally sick.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago
Reply to  Chumped in KC

“They really do a number on our heads. Throw us into a tail spin, traumatize us and then sit back with a beer and snacks and watch the “show” they created.”

I always think of it as the Roman circus effect. Throw someone into the ring with lions, tigers, bears and alligators, watch them scramble around like maniacs and then give a thumbs down on their poor performance.

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago

It’s a lose lose. It doesn’t get better, they have a progressive disesse

Chumped in KC
Chumped in KC
1 month ago

Good analogy!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

I’ve noticed that one thing that serial offenders of every stripe who prey on the people close to them often have in common is that they never directly and civilly try to correct issues with others in a timely way. In other words, someone without normal boundaries might not be just a pushover. Sometimes it can be part of a criminal routine.

Most people who will, say, klepto their bff’s jewelry, embezzle their aunt’s bank account, trash a colleague behind their back to get their job or trash a sibling to get them bumped off the list of beneficiaries for inheritance, groom and molest their friends’ kids or cheat on a partner have done that kind of thing before and will do it again. But genuine “zero empathy” psychopaths and sociopaths are extremely rare. Most habitually creepy people know right from wrong and at least feel the weight of stigma for doing harm to others. So, in order to manage whatever stray wisps of conscience they have, they plan ahead (on some reptilian instinctual level) to store up complaints about every one of their marks’ minor flaws and drop them into their secret blame bags. When they collect enough blame chips, they strike. If caught. they act not only justified but explode in accusations against the target.

So why in the world would they set normal boundaries or cOmMuNiCaTE to their marks (i.e., everyone close to them) about all the normal imperfections in any relationship– minor communication problems, missteps, oversights, annoying or worrisome habits, etc.? If the flaw or flub or imagined slight were actually resolved, they’d lose some of the blame chips they’re diligently saving up to earn them the right to do something awful to the other person and then– voila– walk away from the offense unburdened by a furtive sense of guilt or stigma that might show on their face and scare off the next mark.

Involuntary Georgian
Involuntary Georgian
1 month ago

My XW never had any complaints about me or our marriage during the actual marriage. (Well, she did once give me a gym membership as a present, so implicitly she was telling me I needed to lose weight, but that’s the only thing I can think of).

However, during the devalue / discard phase she disgorged a series of complaints that she had stored up, some of them going back more than a decade. (Apparently 15 years ago I asked her parents to take a taxi from the airport once rather than picking them up. I don’t remember this. Now that I’m writing it down it occurs to me that as a fully functional adult human with a driver’s license she could have picked them up herself) It’s an effective technique because it converts a pretty low rate of “offenses”, integrated over decades, into an impressive pile of grievances. Plus, since I don’t even remember the incidents she talked about, there is no way for me to explain or refute them.

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago

This is so true. They are not stupid.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago
Reply to  2xchump

Mine is. 😁

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
1 month ago

Yeah that resonates. I’m no saint. I’ve done things I wasn’t proud of. I felt like we dealt with them in the moment. When I uncovered the cheating, those relics showed up again as weapons and justifications.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

FWs are basically grievance-hoarding squirrels. Sometimes they bury an imagined slight in the fertile ground of Cluster B confabulated memory and it eventually sprouts to the size of a Mexican cypress.

One last time
One last time
1 month ago

I know I’m a glutton for punishment, so my ex and I were talking a couple of weeks ago, she was pissed at me as usual for using the word “no” with her. Things got heated, she told me “thanks for taking ___ from me”, so I came back with “thanks for fucking another man while we were married.” She then told me “you drove me to do it.” Really! The gall of FW’s.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
1 month ago
Reply to  One last time

Mine didn’t like “no” either. Funny how they are all like that. Along with “I slipped and accidentally fell on some dick because you didn’t hang up a picture like I asked you to/had needs at me.”

If they can’t respect boundaries then perhaps they need to be on the other side of them.

Chumpcat
Chumpcat
1 month ago
Reply to  One last time

With that level of power over her actions (making her cheat obviously against her will) I am surprised she is so difficult. I apparently developed the same power sometime before DD.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago
Reply to  One last time

Maybe she meant it literally, like that time she asked you to drive her to the bus station so she could cross town and bonk Sir Gutless Scumbuckets?

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 month ago

This letter is so familiar to me, it stings. I’ll offer my two cents on the “conflict” aspect of it. I, too, am conflict averse, and I struggled with this aspect of getting a divorce. I stayed with FW for 7 additional years because of it. Here’s a paraphrase of the advice my incredible therapist gave me on the eve of my demand for divorce:

You do not have to “prove” anything to anyone (I was listing the evidence of the things I’d observed, as if proving my case to a judge). You are unhappy. You do not have to stay in a relationship that makes you unhappy.

It was a stupidly simple revelation.

Here’s another way to put it. Asking for a divorce is not a conflict. It is something that you are doing, whether she likes it or not. It is not an argument that you have to win. She has no say in it. You do not have to convince her you are right. When you present this to her, present it as such: I’m leaving, I’m filing for divorce, this is happening. Give her no room to wedge in there with counterarguments. Her counterarguments are irrelevant.

Here’s yet another way to look at it. Divorce is not the start of a conflict, but the end of it. You are in a conflict right now. Your marriage consists of two people who are in conflict with each other because they are unhappy. You are unhappy because she is cheating, and she is unhappy because of some argle-bargle about communication (spoiler alert, I doubt anything will ever make her happy). You are doing the ethical thing: you have tried to make it work, and failing that, you are contemplating the termination of the marriage. It’s painful, but it’s ethical. What she is doing is unethical: she is unhappy, so she’s cheating and then blaming you for her actions.

Finally, ignore the fears of abandonment. She is abandoning you every time she takes her intimacy to another man. She abandoned your marriage when she decided to cheat. If she feels abandoned, that’s now her problem. 

Leedy
Leedy
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

ChumpDchump, you express a profound and empowering truth: “Asking for a divorce is not a conflict. It is something that you are doing, whether she likes it or not. It is not an argument that you have to win. She has no say in it. You do not have to convince her you are right.” This is something I’ve slowly learned in the course of a long lifetime, and it is so freeing.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

ChumpDChump,

This was great.

I came here to add my 2 cents re being conflict avoidant for Moron Communicator.

I am the #1 poster child of conflict avoidance. I was raised in a home where my mom taught me to walk on eggshells so as to keep my raging alcoholic dad calm. I never got therapy then, so when I met a volatile FW as an adult, I fell in love and continued to walk on eggshells. It felt familiar and normal to me. This is not uncommon apparently.

Unfortunately, this was great for him and not at all great for me. Decades of eggshell walking left me a nervous wreck that had truly lost all ability to set ANY boundaries. They weren’t my strong point to begin with, but years with him and they were nonexistent. I went out of my way to do everything his way, whether it made me happy or not. I got to the point where I was constantly worrying about him getting upset. I’d try to avoid anything I KNEW could make him upset, but the joke of that is that a person like him can be set off about ANYTHING and you just can’t ever make them happy. You certainly can’t head off everything tat MIGHT flip their switch. Because they WANT to rage. They WILL find a reason.

And then DDay came. And he said I didn’t make him happy and the affair was my fault. Me who made myself so tiny and quiet for HIM that I barely existed anymore, and it still wasn’t enough.

The process of leaving has dragged out so much. It’s been almost 4 years since DDay and the affair started YEARS before that. He moved out less than a year ago. And he is very resistant to us moving forward with the actual divorce. Here’s the thing, in some ways I am so much luckier than other chumps. He doesn’t want to be the seen as the bad guy, so he is voluntarily paying me child support. I’ve currently got the house. If we finalize the divorce, there is a strong chance I won’t be able to stay. I don’t think I can afford to pay him out. And if we don’t file, he would likely let me stay until the kids both graduate high school. So in some ways, not moving forward is not bad for me.

But it comes at some costs. I can’t go no contact. I’m in my “lucky” position by the grace of his good nature, after all. And he could make it very hard on me if he chose to. I have to continue to put up with his moods.

Moving forward and legally being divorced is for sure the best route for me.

But my conflict avoidant self is terrified of unleashing his worse side. Moving forward on the legalities will absolutely bring out the worst in him and I am so afraid of this.

I finally decided to get therapy and they are working with me to help me get over that fear. The fact is, it is NOT logical. I am “afraid of the angry man getting angry” because I have spent my whole life being taught that I NEED to be afraid of the angry man getting angry.

But the sad joke of it is that if I filed tomorrow, even if it took 8 months to finalize, and even if he was an absolute nightmare to deal with every day of those 8 months, there would be an END. In 8 months, I’d be free to only ever deal with him in regards to the kids.
I recognize this. But out of fear and FOO issues I am pussy-footing and delaying starting that clock. And yes, a lot of the time he is easier to deal with, after all he doesn’t live here, but I still have to deal with LOTS of outbursts and fights. And that will NOT stop until we are legally divorced.

I guess what I want to say to Moron Communicator, is that the advice to leave immediately is EXCELLENT advice. It truly is exactly what you should do. But for us Conflict Avoiders, even if we SEE that, it can be hard to actually do. And that is nothing to be ashamed of. But if you are as avoidant as I am, and it is keeping you from making the right choices for yourself, I would suggest therapy. I know therapy is not for everyone, but it has helped me. I am taking baby steps towards divorce and I hate that I am like this, I wish I just had it in me to rip off the band aid and get it done. But I’ll get there. In the meantime, IAM learning to set boundaries and I am less afraid of him each day.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

I’m so sorry you’re going through that. I also understand the conflict avoidance, and I have no idea what I would do in your situation. It sounds terrifying. I’m glad the therapy is helping! You’re so strong, mighty in your own right. It may take a while to show, but that’s okay. Sometimes, the journey takes a while. And that’s okay

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

I come from a similar background as you – Father was a violent, raging alcoholic and Mom was mentally ill and always trying to avoid trouble. It’s a horrible bind to be in for a kid. I didn’t marry someone like Dad though….I fell into the opposite trap and married someone like Mom. Much nicer, but…..other problems. It’s hard to avoid the pitfalls of fucked up childhood. We just grow as we go.

I think therapy could be very helpful for Moron Communicator especially if it’s regarded as NOT therapy for the marriage to proceed but therapy to help him GET OUT OF the marriage and why he might have issues/problems with that. He has to find a therapist though that recognizes the damage in the marriage and that it needs to end and support him in that and help him find the way through. Sometimes I think this site needs to develop auxiliary services like Chump Dating and Chump Therapy sites!

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
1 month ago
Reply to  Mehitable

I 100% went into therapy to get out of my marriage. I recognized that I was just mentally stuck. The very moment DDay occurred, I knew that I couldn’t stay with him.

Knowing that did not stop me from the worlds longest pick me dance- but the dance wasn’t to win him as a “prize” ,the dance was to keep him calm. Imagine that? HE was having an affair and I was worried about HIM getting mad at ME! But that was our dynamic. And my FOO issues made that dynamic strong as steel.

I was also afraid of him and didn’t know how to move against him. I lucked out and found a therapist that really has helped. Progress is slow, but it is progress. So yes, when I suggested therapy to Moron Communicator, it was absolutely for him to find his way out. I’m not sure if his conflict avoidance is as bad as mine, maybe he can do it on his own. I also know that if anyone does have these issues as bad as I do, sometimes the advice to “just get out now”, though 100% the best advice, can feel so overwhelming. Early on, the thought of even calling a lawyer made my entire body seize up with anxiety. It really can be hard to have your brain know what the right thing is and your body won’t get on board. I waited until he was away for work in another time zone, and even then, I kept looking out the window during my call as if he was going to come home and catch me.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 month ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

I really wish you the best. My father was a cold, distant narcissist who constantly cheated on my mother with his students, so of course I had to marry a cold, distant, narcissist who cheated on me with her students. I gotta do those backflips and get that attention from that person who doesn’t care, right?! Sometimes the process of breaking free takes a day, and sometimes it’s years, but you are climbing that mountain. The only thing I’ll call out is the child support: he’s not being nice, he has a legal and moral duty to his kids. And if he doesn’t want to pay, then he should be held upside down by his ankles until the coins fall out of his pockets.

I don’t doubt for a second that a divorce will set him off. Go out and hire the biggest, meanest attorney you can find, and direct all of his communications to her/him. But, as with everything, it’s easier said than done. Good luck out there.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Thank you. And you are correct. His child support payments are not a kindness. He pays exactly what the law would require if we went through the courts. When I said I am luckier than some chumps, I simply meant that I didn’t have to fight for it. I didn’t pay a lawyer. He pays on time, no reminders, Many chumps don’t have it as easy as that.

But I also think that is why he does it. When he writes that check, he can feel smug that no one forced him to. He gets to feel in control. When the truth is, he’d be doing it whether he wanted to or not. Or be facing legal consequences. He dates now because we are separated and every once in awhile he feels the need to make comments re the women he is meeting. A lot of them are divorced with kids and so far MOST of them have ex-husbands that don’t see their kids much. We have 50/50 and he actually sees his kids for the full amount of time allotted. He will pat himself on the back. As if seeing his children regularly makes him a hero. These women also tell nightmare stories about the way their exes are fighting them in court and just being awful. And then he tells me how lucky I am that he isn’t like that. But I guarantee you, the minute he is served, he WILL be like that. And he’ll be worse than any of those other men. It is part of why I am so terrified to start that battle.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 month ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

I see what you mean. When I finally started dating again, I would meet someone who was divorced with kids, and it was really distressing how many dads were just completely out of the picture. I don’t get it. I also understand feeling fortunate for those things with your ex – I know that others have co-parenting situations that are far, far worse than mine. Comparatively, mine has been easy.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Brilliantly said! I love the simplicity and truth of this.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

“Divorce is not the start of a conflict, but the end of it. You are in a conflict right now.”

Exactly! Divorcing her will end the conflict. It will be a hard road to get there, which I think is what the OP is actually more worried about.

Involuntary Georgian
Involuntary Georgian
1 month ago
Reply to  OHFFS

I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade but I’ve had loads more conflict with my XW since our divorce than during our marriage. We got along great in the marriage because I always said yes (because we were on the same team); now that I occasionally say no I’m a “bad person”.

(Caveat that during the affair there was conflict. Bizarre conflict that didn’t make sense. But that was just the last year or two – the rest of the marriage was very peaceful)

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago

My marriage was also peaceful until he started cheating. Once they cross that rubicon it will never be peaceful again. Their entitlement blows up into a toxic cloud that will rain poison on you for the rest of your days if you stay with them. At least if you divorce you can avoid most of that. Yes, they’ll try to mess with you, but you can refuse to engage. I’ve been so dismissive of my ex’s childish antics that he has stopped trying.

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Needed to hear this. Thanks.

FYI_
FYI_
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

This is genius. Every word of it.
Argle-bargle indeed.

Last edited 1 month ago by FYI_
ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 month ago
Reply to  FYI_

Thanks. It’s very hard-earned perspective. I hope others don’t take 7 years to earn it. I had an old boss who said “you can learn by being taught, or you can learn by pain.” I learned by pain, lol.

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

32 years here

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Good tip on ignoring the “fear of abandonment.” Those kinds of internally generated, leftover-from-childhood fears are one thing in people who adhere to the golden rule and are less likely to abandon or betray others precisely because they understand that sensitivity. But people who actually subject others to their own worst fears as a means of managing those internally generated fears? Eek. That’s the definition of criminal disorder.

One thing I learned as an advocate for DV survivors is that all abusers are “reenacting” their own childhood traumas one way or another but usually with victim and perpetrator roles reversed so that they can “replay the scene with a different outcome” but from the perspective of the powerful abuser rather than the powerless victim. Basically if someone says they have some quirky fear and then subjects you to it, the harm they’re doing to you was intentional on whatever effed up, psycho level. You being harmed resolves something for them.

It’s beyond sick. People who “do unto others” the very things they fear most themselves may have experienced victimization in the past but these types are not “survivors” in any meaningful sense. It didn’t make them more aware, more thoughtful, more reflective and more humane, only more dangerous. They didn’t really emotionally survive their experiences but instead are more like raging poltergeists who compulsively torment the living as they play out the dramas that happened before their souls burned out.

New Beginnings
New Beginnings
1 month ago

Thank you for that explanation. I never thought of abusers in this way!

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

“Those kinds of internally generated, leftover-from-childhood fears are one thing in people who adhere to the golden rule and are less likely to abandon or betray others precisely because they understand that sensitivity.”

Can verify. Have abandonment issues and Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria (as well as conflict avoidance). Why would I go around chasing abandonment, then? Affairs are unstable and insecure, with partners who don’t want to be seen with you. As well as risk your loyal partner leaving you. And why would I ever want to hurt my partner, anyways? She can shove her abandonment issues where the sun don’t shine.

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
1 month ago

I can’t fathom that my wife would be like this. I have struggled so much over the past months with whether the word “abuse” applies. I have concluded that this is an abusive relationship. It’s still hard to believe that, or to say it out loud. I haven’t told her yet that that is how I see things.
But to cut to the heart of it: she had a narc father and was also a child of SA, so she has plenty of childhood trauma and harbors a lot of hate from it. I just can’t imagine that I would be the puppet in her replaying that with roles reversed. Now that’s a mindfuck.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

Start looking up resources on coercive control (particularly the work of Evan Stark) and you might find it opening up forgotten memories of certain eerie gestures and tactics that your abusive partner was doing all along. Some of it can be very subtle messaging but we’re all permeable in that sense and can be boiled like frogs.

For one example, when I worked in advocacy, I often heard survivors describe how their abusers can use “social abuse” to control victims, such as accusing the victim of some terrible, exaggerated offense and then insinuating– subtly or unsubtly– that the abuser will then frame the victim in this light to their employers, families, friends, etc., essentially threatening Dickensian level “social ruin.” I think this kind of weird threat tends to shock people’s primitive lizard fear centers because, back in our paleolithic days, being driven out of the tribe meant sure death so it’s a very potent thing to threaten any homo sapien with. And in modern reality where social nets are thinner and thinner, the same threat can mean job loss or loss of reputation, loss of support or even loss of child custody so these are not idle menaces. I bring up the latter because I’ve seen she-abusers level this particular weapon as regularly as men.

Anyway, the point is that, the more you read up, I think the more you’ll start to see that coercive control is the typical go-to facilitator used by cheaters. Then bear in mind that individuals convicted of coercive control can be punished by up to 14 years in Scotland, 5 in the UK, can lose custody of children in Hawaii and California and get victims an order of protection in Connecticut. In other words, it’s not just whimsically but officially considered abuse, full stop.

Even if hetero men are less frequently injured or killed in domestic abuse, men can frequently be victims of emotional abuse since women are especially apt to use psychological and emotional approaches to coercing and controlling partners (and other women– I know the type, shriek). A real problem for men who are victimized is that most victim resources are geared for women or based on feminist theory and it can be confusing trying to piece together what happened within a context that seems to be based on gender inequality despite the fact that men’s and women’s traumatic responses are going to be quite similar.

A big problem for survivors of both genders is that only very recently has there been a movement to bring attention to coercive control– the subviolent emotional, psychological and often financial abuse that tends to statistically precede violence. Back when I worked in advocacy, resources were all about broken bones and gunshot wounds which left victims of emotional frog-boiling terror campaigns wandering between wagon circles with nowhere to go for support (the network I worked with did offer that support). But fortunately there are more and more resources out there focusing on CC so therefore more that will also address male survivors’ needs and questions.

As far as the feminist theory behind domestic violence, when I worked as an advocate, I started to realize that male victims of domestic abuse were not actually a complete contradiction to feminist theory because, almost without exception, female abusers in these cases would turn out to be something called “male directed.”

That doesn’t necessarily mean they behaved in an overtly masculine manner. Sometimes quite the reverse– hyper feminine and exaggeratedly childlike or “helpless” on the surface- almost as an overcompensation or mask for covert dominance and aggression. The term “stoop to conquer” comes to mind.

A lot of women feel the need to be somewhat wily in dating simply because of safety factors but actual abusers take things to an entirely different level. What’s theoretically “male directed” about these types of abusers is that they had generally internalized abuse from a male abuser from childhood. And by internalize, this meant that, in the “kill or be killed” dynamics they grew up in, emulating the perpetrator and “killing” so to speak seemed a safer bet than emulating the victim and being “killed.”

So if creepy daddy was abusive to partners, daughters who internalized the negative role model would also be abusive to partners– sometimes in a violent way though, statistically, mostly in terms of psychological coercion and abuse. If daddy cheated (as all violent abusers tend to), the daughters who internalized would cheat as well. I don’t know why female abusers typically had abusive male role models rather than especially abusive mom figures except that it may simply take more overt violence in childhood to turn a girl into an adult abuser and, statistically speaking, 80% of overtly violent domestic abusers are male.

But, except for tending to be less overtly violent than male abusers and more apt to use emotional coercion and control, the rest of the syndrome plays out pretty much the same for male or female abusive personalities. Kids who- rather than survive and heal from childhood trauma– internalize the negative model will also do this compulsive reenactment of their own past traumas in an effort to maladaptively resolve them. And as I mentioned before, one sick and twisted way of “resolving” those past tragedies is to reverse victim/offender roles. Then the formerly traumatized individual eventually becomes the adult perpetrator.

It’s more common for female children raised in abusive family dynamics to “freeze and fawn” and have a passive response than to go into “fight or flight” just like, among chimpanzees, female juvenile chimps will treat sticks like dolls while male juveniles will usually run around whacking things. Vive la difference. But not everyone’s the same even within the same gender. Some kids are naturally more dominant and, unfortunately, this can become a liability within abuse dynamics in terms of adult outcomes. It can sometimes happen that a child with dominant personality traits will throw themselves into the fray to protect the victim parent and consequently gets beaten and injured in the process, therefore more traumatized, therefore more prone to be violentized.

In many ways it’s tragic. If the same people who became abusers of whatever stripe as adults had not been “violentized” or transformed by abuse in childhood, some might have been leader types or athletes or people who expressed that dominant energy positively (saving orphans, rescuing endangered species, working on the bomb squad, etc.). But the drive to compulsively reenact is so intense in people with this kind of disorder that this is why most DV experts view this personality type as basically incurable and intractable. Stick a fork in them, they’re cooked in 98.5% of cases. I imagine that recidivism is probably worse for violent offenders but, to the degree that coercive control statistically presages violence in many cases, I don’t imagine that coercive controllers have a much better recidivism rate.
.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago

Don’t tell her that’s how you feel about it. Don’t give her any window into your feelings at all. She will only exploit them to try to manipulate you.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 month ago
Reply to  OHFFS

God, this is sad but true, isn’t it? I have to deal with my ExFW because we coparent, but I greyrock as much as humanly possible. If I told her “I fear clowns,” she would make sure to have a clown hired for the kids’ next birthday party.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

I’m dying here. I’m totally envisioning the Pennywise jumpy castle and “fear” cookies.

Marcus
Marcus
1 month ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

> If I told her “I fear clowns”…

That’s an experiment which is perhaps worth having a little fun with 🙂

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 month ago

I’ll add a caveat to what I said before, because it sounds harsh: you can care that she’s had trauma. You can hope that she gets the help she needs, or finds peace. But cheating and gaslighting you is not a part of a healing process – it’s abusive bullshit. My ex was a drunk and had some serious adolescent trauma that I feel really bad for. By staying with her and allowing myself to be the scaffolding that propped her up, I was being codependent. I was enabling. Ultimately, “helping” her wasn’t helping her. I genuinely hope that she overcomes those traumas, even to this day. But, by remaining with her, I kept her from dealing with the consequences of, for example, her drinking.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago

I really think we have to try to not get caught up in trying to “understand” them because that keeps us stuck. Ultimately people are what they DO. I went through a very negative and abusive childhood and yet I’m not a cheater and I don’t think I’ve done much that’s really terrible in my life except fuck myself up, maybe. It’s not destiny and no one else has to sacrifice themselves to try to save me. But I’ll say this, people who are victims of abuse like this as children sometimes are unable to build close emotional relationships or let people be or stay close to them. They don’t have the basic mechanics of this – they don’t know HOW to do it, and I’m not sure they can learn. Also, some seek to have power over others or manipulate them just as their normal behavior, both because they learned this from their models, and also because it puts them in control which they didn’t have growing up. We can UNDERSTAND these things but that doesn’t mean we can or should live with them. Some people are simply too damaged for marriage as we understand and want to practice it (or parenthood I might add but that doesn’t stop them) even if we “understand” them. Communication is not the issue….basic ways of dealing with life and pre-programmed reactions are. She will do what works for her to keep her in charge of any given person or situation, you are a person/situation she will always seek to control.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
1 month ago
Reply to  Mehitable

“We can UNDERSTAND these things but that doesn’t mean we can or should live with them. ”

I heard a good saying recently, “An explanation is NOT an excuse.”

My FW had some events in his childhood that I think contribute to why he is the way he is today. Doesn’t mean it is ok for him to be abusive towards me.

Apparently a LOT of serial killers suffered a traumatic brain injury in their childhood. Doesn’t make the atrocities they did ok.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

I have no sympathy for adult abusers even if I can feel for the traumatized kids they once were. But all my sympathy gets channeled into supporting causes and programs that shield today’s and future children from the kinds of horror that sometimes creates adult monsters, namely better resources and support for DV and coercive control survivors, legislation that protects victims and their children and enables effective escape, emotional and economic recovery, correcting victim-blaming mythology, etc. CN is definitely part of that wave.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago
Reply to  Mehitable

“We can UNDERSTAND these things but that doesn’t mean we can or should live with them.”

100%
I do have some pity in my heart for FW. He is pathetic. That doesn’t mean I have to try to help him or even deal with him at all. The world is full of hurting people, most of whom are much more deserving of my help than him.

Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago
Reply to  OHFFS

Same for my STBX. His FOO is very dysfunctional, I suspect his father was high in Cluster B PD traits, his mother seemed cool and distant with him, they both treated him like the family servant, their “Joey Deacon”, he was/is a family scapegoat and worst of all, he was molested!
However, none of that’s any excuse for his treatment of me nor his failure as a father-figure to my son, the only “dad” the young fella has ever known!
In fact, it makes him what Mehitable says i.e. unsuitable for marriage, and also, unfit for parenthood, even step-parenthood! He’s had plenty of time to seek therapy for it all, and would have had my support, and I was a psychiatric nurse for 12 years!
My work now is to stop “rescuing” people, and to learn to look after myself better, plus, to be a shrewd and clever as a serpent, as well as gentle as a dove…even though I’m not always that gentle either! I have a bit of a temper on me when I’m provoked enough, so I have to learn to channel the anger as well!

FYI_
FYI_
1 month ago

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LOVE LANGUAGE !!!!
Sorry for shouting, but the amount of nonsense spouted about and around this silly book is unreal. The guy who wrote it is not even a counselor. Of any kind. He has since spun off about 50 knock-offs — Love Language for Three-Year-Olds, etc. He has a whole love language empire, based off of a non-empirical, totally made-up concept. It has no basis in therapeutic or psychological practice whatsoever.

:: end rant ::

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
1 month ago
Reply to  FYI_

One of the better ways I sucker punched mine during D-Day was when she tried to pull that on me to try to rationalize why she was leaving me. She said that our love languages weren’t compatible. I told her having actually read the book instead of a puff-piece on it like she had that “yes, actually, they can!”

Pyrrhic victory on my part but no less funny looking back on it.

I tend not to buy into them myself(it is certainly an interesting pop-psych framework).

Granted, this was all coming from somebody that was ok with abusing me, so hey. There’s no reasoning with these people.

Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

If someone is OK with abusing us, they aren’t using a “love language” so much as a contempt language, and it’s best to respond with what in self-protection language translates as “Sling yer hook, FW!”

Bluewren
Bluewren
1 month ago
Reply to  FYI_

Thank the Goddess someone finally said it!
It’s a lot of BS that expects people to gloss over crap behaviour because something isn’t someone’s ‘love’ language.
Please…..
If people can’t figure out the basics of honesty, respect and treating people well, then they’ve no business being in a relationship with another adult.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago
Reply to  FYI_

From the time I first heard people referring to this on the web, I could not wrap my head around what a “love language” is. It really just sounds like a term someone desperate would use to convince a completely shitty partner to do basic loving things, like “My love language is good listening skills so why don’t you stop scrolling your (%&&ing) phone when I’m trying to talk to you??” Yes, listening is loving and water is wet. Or else it sounds like something a cheater would say to a chump as a blameshift after getting caught, as in “My love language is having a partner twist themselves into painful knots and perforate their own intestines with a rusty screwdriver and alas you have always failed in this!”

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago

My love language is monogamy and faithfulness. Very
Basic

Dontfeellikedancin
Dontfeellikedancin
1 month ago

HOAC, Army counselors were handing out free copies of this crap back in the day. And yes, it’s just a list of things for self-centered asshats to do to appear like loving partners. Oh and on top of that, their partner is made to read the book too and identify his or her own love language. So not only are they provided with a list, we are expected to curate it for them.

Love Languages, helping narcissists pretend to be your partner since 1992.

Or whenever it came out.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

Army counselors?? Was that some desperate (but clearly lame) measure to cut down on the rate of DV, cheating and spousal homicide in the military?

FYI_
FYI_
1 month ago

Yeah, it’s “my love language is gift-giving. Why aren’t you buying me MORE gifts!?”
Um, wait …

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago
Reply to  FYI_

Could be like me. I love gifts and it’s definitely one way I communicate my affections with people. I’m proud of how good I am at paying attention to people likes and dislikes.

I especially like cool rocks, heartfelt notes, and stickers.

Although, yes, while some people are more used to certain forms of care (what love languages really are) than others, and it’s probably better if you find ways to show your care that your partner is comfortable with reciprocating, love languages are kinda bullshit. There’s really no studies done on it.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

An addition, because it’s too late to edit:

And you also learn how to work around your partner. I am a very touchy-feely person, to the point of it being a consistent need. Ex/FW hated cuddling, and it was rather rare that we snuggled up… anywhere. Didn’t even seem to like holding hands. So, despite my needs to touch, I put it aside, and tried to find ways around it. I already have a habit of platonically hugging acquaintances, friends, and family, so that helped, although it was a lot harder for me to center and soothe when at home with him. I would get hugs, but he wasn’t a “snuggle on the couch” kind of guy. I coped as best I could.

…now that I think about it, that wasn’t the best example…

rw
rw
1 month ago

The Fear of Abandonment is one of the checkboxes for Borderline PD. My mental health professional suggested that my FW likely suffers from it.  It doesn’t justify what she did, but it explains her behavior and answers the “who does that?” question. A dipsh*t with BPD does that.   I don’t know if your wife hits the requisite number of other BPD checkboxes to qualify for an amateur internet mental health diagnosis, but fear of abandonment especially when coupled with intense idealizing and devaluing of others drives a lot of really stupid behavior.
 
We all know what happens to the nice chumps that help little old scorpions cross the street.  If you’re in a car metaphorically with someone that is intent on constantly grabbing the wheel and trying to drive into a wall, you just need to get out of that car.  The only person that you can count on to look after your best interests is YOU. 

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
1 month ago
Reply to  rw

I have been digging a lot into the bpd subs. Started thinking she was covert npd. Then found out about bpd and it checks off a lot. I’d say she’s an easy 5 out of 9 and a probable 7 out of 9 on the bpd scale.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago

Though, according to reform psychiatrists, borderline has historically been over-applied to just women and often unfairly (for instance, being applied to recently traumatized victims of violence whose sudden erratic behavior and attachment issues would be better attributed to PTSD), a leading domestic violence researcher identified borderline as the main disorder of most batterers.

But the researcher, who studied batterers and spouse killers like bugs in prison settings for decades, wasn’t making a sad sausage case to cure his prison subjects with hugs and talk therapy. He argued that, sure, they should get therapy… in prison. Because apparently only the combination of the two things seemed to make even a tiny dent in the very high recidivism rate.

Borderline itself is reportedly difficult if not impossible to treat so I imagine that, if you add aggressive, antisocial or violent behavior it becomes more intractable because, the more people act out in ways that are socially condemned and prohibited, the more elaborate and ingrained their systems of rationalization become to defend themselves from that stigma. And I would imagine that pattern probably applies to abusive women as well. The paint themselves into corners.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago

Run for your life! People with BPD can become dangerous when, in their estimation, you cross them. The ones who are high on the scale are extremely vindictive. Expect her to be telling people a pack of lies about you as revenge for deciding to divorce her. Get ahead of her and tell everybody she cheated.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
1 month ago

I deal with Borderlines for a living. Kind of like the narcissism thing-there is a ton of crossover(particularly as it concerns discomfort-avoidance) with your garden variety cheater. Mine definitely met a lot of the criteria but I decline to diagnose her with anything other than “Fuckwit – Uncomplicated.”

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

These days people seem to armchair diagnose everyone they don’t like or who merely annoy them. It’s like living in a psychiatric inquisition. You especially feel it as a parent because if a kid hiccups at the wrong moment the fingers start pointing and the speculative labels fly. That’s why I tend to only be interested in criminal disorders because these have to do with basic safety. Will this person embezzle, commit libel, attack, endanger or kill anyone else? Otherwise, if someone isn’t dangerous in some way, I don’t see the point in speculating on labels at all unless it’s about providing accommodations.

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
1 month ago

There is nothing to add to the brilliance and truth of Chump Lady’s response.

What I can add is that, like everyone else here, and most likely every other victim of infidelity that has ever walked or will walk the earth, I had this very same experience with my SO-CALLED former husband.

From Private Lies, by Dr. Frank Pittman, I will also add:

“In lying, one is identifying the other as one’s opponent, even one’s enemy. In marriage intimacy is developed through confessions, explanations, and soul searchings. But of course intimacy involves equality, and people who are telling lies are not seeking any aspect of intimacy, especially equality. Liars are hoping for advantage, which will be produced by disorienting and distracting the other person. The liar is stepping outside the relationship. The lie may be a greater betrayal of the relationship than the misdeed being lied about. It takes very little misinformation to disorient and destroy a relationship. I often point out to people that if I gave them detailed instructions on how to go from Atlanta to New York City, and threw in only one left turn that was a lie, they would end up in Oklahoma.”
-Dr. Frank Pittman
Private Lies
(p. 59)

Just add “……said the liar cheater thief” on the end of every sentence out of her lying cheating thieving mouth.

I vote RUN. Unless you enjoy crap marriages.

You also have my truly sincere and profound condolences.

❤️

Leedy
Leedy
1 month ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Velvet Hammer, everything in this quotation from Dr. Pittman is so true–and it breaks my heart! “In lying, one is identifying the other as one’s opponent, even one’s enemy.” I think I still haven’t fully ABSORBED the fact that my husband made me his enemy.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 month ago
Reply to  Leedy

Well, you know it wasn’t really you. He just pasted a projection onto you of some long lost goblin from his horror show upbringing and threw rocks at his own demented hallucination.

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Lying is all you need to derail. Wow

Viktoria
Viktoria
1 month ago

As if the cheater is communicating to her husband, when she lies to him and keeps her sexual infidelity a secret from him.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago
Reply to  Viktoria

That’s what I’m sayin’! Gaslighting isn’t healthy communication.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 month ago
Reply to  Viktoria

Next she’ll openly and honestly “communicate” her frustrations to him in the form of a lifelong case of HSV II. That’ll show him.

Josh McDowell
Josh McDowell
1 month ago

Leave, leave, leave. It doesn’t get any better. Also, a “lack of communication” doesn’t entitle your spouse to have another man’s dipstick check the health level of your marriage.

FYI_
FYI_
1 month ago
Reply to  Josh McDowell

🤣😂🙌🏽

Spaceman Spiff
Spaceman Spiff
1 month ago

God I hate the love language bullshit. It’s made up psycho babble created by a guy who has zero background in counseling or therapy. In my opinion the role of someone’s “love language” is typically only brought up as ammo for their bad behavior as a way to weaponize it against their partner, like what has happened above.

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
1 month ago

Thank you for adding this clarity to my mind, CL. I’m new to the site, having only been introduced thanks to redditors. But I appreciate your directness in this and all your other posts.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago

Stick around! We’re a friendly bunch, mostly. And there’s lots of guidance and information to be gleaned from this blog. It’ll help.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago

So true – the archives are full of almost every topic related to marriage and infidelity issues imaginable. I have been perusing them for sometime and it’s been really educational! Moron Communicator (we’ve got to get you to change that name because you are NO moron!) stay with us – everybody here has a story and incredible experience and wisdom – and you’ll get support and advice every inch of the way. And we’re not shitting you – Chump Lady IS right in what she writes here and in her book, she has amazing clarity and writing. If you haven’t read her book yet (I don’t recall if you did) please do. This WILL help!

Chumpcat
Chumpcat
1 month ago

Beware reddit, it is populated by trolls and 12 year olds. On this site I have found far more clarity and experience.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago

The (hopefully) STBX’s bullshit is along the lines of “The best defense is a good offense.”. She’s putting our poor chump on the defense. I think the way to deal with this is… SEE A LAWYER, GET EVIDENCE, GET A DIVORCE ON THE BEST TERMS YOU CAN. You will never unravel this, it’s not meant to be unraveled, it’s mean to stymie you, beat you down, blame you, hold you up, keep you as Plan B, etc. There is neither honesty nor understanding here, you can’t deal with this. You can’t build a marriage on Turkish Taffy for a foundation. She’s full of shit, she doesn’t understand herself and you never will anyway. Just understand what she does and her lack of respect for you and honesty and honor in dealing with you, and know that it WILL NEVER GET ANY BETTER. And if you try recon – your bottom line is always likely to be…..no matter what else happens….YOU WILL NEVER VIEW HER THE SAME WAY AGAIN and that is the death knell to most marriages to cheaters. You can’t recreate the relationship you had before the cheating. You will never regard her as a person you can respect and trust again, there will always, at best, be an asterisk there. Get out and save yourself and your kids, if any. It’s the best you can do.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Seriously….DON’T WASTE TIME ON THIS, OP. Why is she doing this? BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO FUCK OTHER MEN AND BE FAWNED OVER BY THEM. It IS that blunt. Don’t waste time or energy trying to “understand her” or “understand the marriage” or save it, etc. When they start cheating, aside from “possibly” a one night stand…when they start really cheating….the marriage is OVER. I know that sounds harsh but it is the truth. So many people are talked into continuing the marriage or are fooled by the adulterous spouse and her supporters in the reconciliation industry but when someone has this little respect for you and control over herself, it’s NOT going to get better and you can waste YEARS doing this and come to the same conclusion except you have more wasted years and pain behind you. It is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS best to just have a clean divorce. Some people do reconcile down the road but the percentages are something like…..5% to remarry. It’s pretty low. YOU NEVER VIEW THEM THE SAME WAY AGAIN.

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago
Reply to  Mehitable

I would count any one night stand as someone that could really really gut you in one night. It is not a pass, it must be Duly Noted that my value was worthless for one night. These people are capable of anything. Do not let one night stands pass, drunk or not high or not alone or not. Never ever trust then again. My apologies to those who think they are safe. This is a progressive disease. 1-2-3

One last time
One last time
1 month ago
Reply to  Mehitable

“Seriously….DON’T WASTE TIME ON THIS, OP. Why is she doing this? BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO FUCK OTHER MEN AND BE FAWNED OVER BY THEM. It IS that blunt.”

Ouch. When you break it down to the most basic, this is exactly right. Eight months post D-Day and one month post divorce, it still hurts to think about it this way, but its the truth.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago
Reply to  One last time

Yup…..I feel like sometimes I have to be crude and blunt because so much of our society is candy coated popcorn, peanuts and a prize, and people get stuck in the syrup. I’m sorry if it offends some folks, I understand, but, the point has to get across with force to penetrate. Even if you can understand why she’s doing this, and our poor Chump probably never will, it doesn’t matter. She’ll keep doing this because SHE WANTS TO for….reasons.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
1 month ago
Reply to  Mehitable

I appreciate the bluntness. I think the most vulgar thing I’ve ever said was to a friend. I was venting about the affair. And from a lot of what FW had said, as a middle-aged man looking back over his life, he realized that he didn’t sleep around enough when he was single. And he wanted to make up for that before he got too old-looking and his dick stopped working. (his words, not mine) Obviously it goes much deeper than that, but it was a stance he took for a bit. I told my friend “So does he mean to tell me that if he had just put his dick in a bigger variety of holes in his youth, our marriage would have made it?” So vulgar and blunt, but it was an accurate assessment. Sometimes vulgarity just works.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

Yes it does, it gets past all the defense mechanisms our brains seem to automatically put up to pretend to be civilized, LOL. The shock value helps to get the message really across. It’s sad to think so many people seem to feel they’re missing something and then to go do it and find out….it wasn’t that much of a big deal after all. Not worth it really. People are the stupid animals, other animals don’t deliberately seek out experience for novelty because there lie wolves 🙂

Chumpcat
Chumpcat
1 month ago

I hate the pop psychology terms. As for communication, do you recall her saying “I don’t feel like I can talk to you, and I am worrIed it could damage our relationship” Hey even “pay attention to me and feed my ego or I will screw the first man who does.” The second one would at least be honest.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 month ago

“We are still together because I am conflict avoidant and trying every tactic under the sun before resorting to divorce.”

This, right here, is the real problem, not whatever this skank is whining about. The skein untangling is about not wanting to face the inevitable. You think to yourself that if only you could just understand where the fuckwit is coming from, then you could live with this. Spoiler alert; you probably can’t. Even if it you could make it make sense, it’s unlikely you’ll ever get past it emotionally. Then there is the reality that if you improved your communication, she would probably cheat again, then cite some other flaw of yours as the cause. She feels free to blame you because she isn’t sorry. If she isn’t even sorry, she can certainly do it again. That’s the way it is. You don’t like conflict? Then don’t give her the opportunity to fight about it. Leave her, file, and go no contact.

Last edited 1 month ago by OHFFS
Sparrow
Sparrow
1 month ago

I also got the “But we couldn’t communicate!”

To echo everyone here, the solution to that wasn’t cheating. Trying to talk more, suggesting therapy, divorcing – those are honest options your partner had. Sleeping around because they felt disconnected is a no-no. No one has a perfect marriage, cheating is not an acceptable solution or coping mechanism.

Two things I realized about my communication issues over the past couple months:

  1. I am conflict-avoidant. Always have been. Serious conversations rev up my nervous system. I can and should work on this. (Staying calm, giving myself time to process, and learning to live with discomfort at times. The more I do it, the easier it is.)
  2. My partner made this much worse. They were not a safe communicator when there was conflict. Anger, scorn, blaming, subtle and not-subtle dominance – these things made communicating infinitely scarier to me. This meant we only discussed big things, which made communication harder. And their history of dissatisfaction and chasing others made me scared to trust them, scared of what they might want to discuss, scared to upset them.

So while the communication issues were real, they were not only my fault. By a long shot. And (spoiler-alert), not an acceptable reason to cheat. Because there isn’t one.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 month ago

I have been over on another site which specializes in saving marriages they think are caused by Mid Life Crises by “standing”, which seems to be mainly based on religious ideas. I don’t want to beat up on them, they’re good people who have gone through a ton of pain, but I’ve been reading their threads and letters from YEARS back up until present, and I see that trying to follow this process of waiting and trying to recon, has not worked for the overwhelming majority of them. And I mean OVERWHELMING majority of them. I even see people (as of 2024) making comments about they should have just ended this years ago rather than trying to follow years of attempted recon or waiting or understanding. That’s what happens when you engage in the process instead of just going for the divorce. You are talked into or hope for things that cause you to waste YEARS of your own life, and being at the mercy of a cheater who treats you like a cat treats a toy mouse, batting you around for amusement. Sexual infidelity and all its attendant lies and abuses, strike at the very heart of what marriage IS for most people and you really don’t overcome it. Even Jesus Christ probably couldn’t overcome it…he never got married. Don’t try to overcome it….as Chump Lady says “Trust that they suck” and they’re just gonna defend themselves and attack and gaslight you. Get out on the best terms you can as quickly as you can. It’s what YOU deserve and….what they deserve.

Bluewren
Bluewren
1 month ago

When he’d come back from visiting me here in NZ where I was on a short term contract, Dickhead McCluggage told people he felt no ‘connection’ with me even though he had a good time- what??
I found this out months after he’d told our small town that I said I wasn’t coming back and he ‘didn’t know what was happening’
Delusional as all fuck.
He basically made it up as he went along and decided to create a whole new existence.
Unfortunately for him, we’re still married, he never officially broke up with me and the courts will soon wake his ass up to some hard facts and reality.
The FW alarm clock is ticking.

2xchump
2xchump
1 month ago

My XHCHEATER did not love me and this is a very important piece of information. 2x cheaters both husbands. One left me on the delivery room table because when pregnant I was not in top shape.🤰 He went to Golds gym every single night where he met OW to work out together. Me, couldn’t manage that. XHCHEATER #2 felt I was not there for him and he did not feel the LUV He needed. His massage therapist (s) were there for him and other workers..yes it took a village so he could feel loved. I just kept packing his healthy lunches and servicing his needs as best as a mere mortal could.
Just know that if it’s not your communication style or your BO or the way you chew that’s an excuse for cheating, something else will be. The 🗝 🗝 🗝 key here is they do not love, cannot love, they love only themselves. So IF you got gravely ill or started down the path of memory loss or had any other perceived dents in your body work, that would be the excuse. You will never be enough for them not to cheat. I am divorced x2 and every single time I am sick or injured, I say a prayer of thanks and gratitude that I am in good hands with someone who cares about me #1 Is God, #2 is ME. I can take care of my precious self without being with someone who can gut me like a TROUT and then blame me for biting the hook with the fat worm🐛 on it. Believing in the clouds that this was love. No i was not.Thank you Lord I am free. Divorced 6 months after a horrible divorce where they both showed me evil behind the mask.
You.ARE NOT. LOVED. YOU ARE.NOT CARED. FOR. YOU.ARE. OF. USE.
Tracy is the best at cartoons that i.laugh at every day. I need a shot of truth serum in every word she utters and in every drawing. There is nothing else like this spot to.help.me keep no contact through the years. Thank you CL& CN.

PeaceAtLast
PeaceAtLast
1 month ago

Get out now! Don’t waste any more time. She is just going to keep cheating on you again and again. Nothing is worse than living with a cheater. Divorce is not the end of the world. Living with a cheater is.

Marco
Marco
1 month ago

My poor, poor wife can’t help it she suffers from a disorder called strange dickitis😢

Marco
Marco
1 month ago

Every woman knows strangers D does not go in their V.

Marco
Marco
1 month ago

Its not a communication problem Its a lack of morals.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
1 month ago

I’d say this reminds me too much of my own chump-dom, but well, that’s being in the Chump Nation for you!

I did get the blame shifting and false equivalency(right on schedule as our noble leader decrees.) I was terrified of losing her and capitulated on a lot of matters, bottled my emotions up, etc. Decided that most hills were not worth dying on. Again-fear of the loss that as it turns out was going to happen anyway.

I have not read the other 75 comments today(yet), but I get the distinct impression that they all echo the same basic sentiments-that SHE is the one that is not communicating, that SHE is continuing a pattern of abuse by doubling down on awful behavior, and that YOU need to send her away.

Again-very similar situation here. Mine accused me of being hard to share difficult things with-and quite frankly, yes, I can be difficult to give hard news to. That being said, that did not excuse mine nor did it excuse yours from doing so. That is part of being in a relationship. Mine, it seemed, only wanted the easy and good parts.

There was also the expectation that I was going to take everything with a genuine smile on my face while she got to have very open tantrums and blame everything but her own ineptitude on her failings. And yes, this included me not being permitted to be mood swing-y when she was cheating right in front of me.

Yours is doing the same thing.

Yours is demanding that you suck it up while she gets to go off and do whatever she wants under some very poor justification.

You are being continually abused by this…I hesitate the use the word “person.” Regardless of your own perceived shortcomings, you do not deserve abuse. Nobody does.

Ask yourself:

“Am I ok with the person that’s supposed to love me hurting me this much?”

You were betrayed just like I was. I lived in the corpse of true love. You don’t have to make that mistake any more if you don’t want to.

You don’t realize it yet, but you are worth so much more than that. Warts and all!

I spackled too, friend. I made excuses for her too. I did everything possible to keep that relationship together and still working hoping against hope that it would all change and things would go back to when we were happy together.

I wish I had the balls to throw her out.

Despite all of my effort, here I am, six months later. She saw herself out the door when she perceived that she had gotten the last of the marrow out of me-and again her parting shot was that it was for my “own good”. It wasn’t-she didn’t want to live with her sin and moved on to the next victim.

And honestly? Other than unpacking all of the trauma and welding my life back together, I’m glad that monster is gone. It gets lonely sometimes, but all of that tension and worry about her is gone.

We are here for you.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
1 month ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

The corpse of true love. Rotting. Empty. Diseased.

Yes, that’s what a relationship with a FW is.

One last time
One last time
1 month ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

Very well said Jeff. This mirrors my situation.

Rarity
Rarity
1 month ago

She couldn’t figure out a way to tell MC that she was fucking someone else, but he’s the bad communicator??

Yeah, no. Please lawyer up and make your exit, MC. She is giving you nothing to work with here.

Josh McDowell
Josh McDowell
1 month ago

I will say this, I am your age. I was divorced at 36, you have a long time to work on what you would like to work on. It does get better once you leave. Right now, you are being abused, you will have to wrap your mind around it and process it. Males can be abused; it does not make you weak nor a loser, anyone who thinks otherwise, is insecure and really doesn’t understand.

If you have kids, there will probably more conflict as you begin to stand up for yourself and learn no is a perfectly acceptable answer. They do not get to dictate your life, nor control you within the relationship. Do ask questions, especially if they have a personality disorder as this will cause them to shut down because they want you to do what they want.

CurlyChump
CurlyChump
1 month ago
Reply to  Josh McDowell

Yep, I’m so, so glad I had a therapist during my separation and early days post-divorce. They really helped me validate my boundaries and learn how to set them! (My ex’s favorite tactic was to accuse me of being mean or not putting our daughter first if I dared to say no and disagree with whatever he wanted.) I remember when I first started seeing her, I said how are you supposed to have boundaries in a romantic relationship? Don’t they get in the way of that connection? Cue my therapist violently shaking her head, “No. No. No. Boundaries are super important for a healthy relationship.” And I was so confused by that statement at that time! From where I sit now, it’s hard to believe I used to believe that (but I did! and it’s part of why I ended up with my ex in the first place).

Josh McDowell
Josh McDowell
1 month ago
Reply to  CurlyChump

Ex does the same manipulative for the children thing, doesn’t work anymore.

CurlyChump
CurlyChump
1 month ago

“trying every tactic under the sun to avoid divorce.”

Those could have been my words a few years back when I was deep into being discarded by my ex.

Here’s the thing, if you don’t have a partner as dedicated as you are to the marriage, it isn’t going to work. Your wife has shown you through her actions (cheating, then victim blaming) that she doesn’t care as much about the marriage as you do.

To make the marriage work up until then, I had been making my needs smaller, and smaller, and smaller, and still, it wasn’t enough. My minimal expectations were still too much for my ex.

My ex gave me a gift when he asked me for a divorce. Who knows how much longer I would have put up with his nonsense. Of course, I was devastated at the time over the loss of my marriage. Not too long into the process though, I realized I was fighting for a marriage I never had, an ideal that we were never going to get to, because he didn’t have the same priorities for our marriage and family that I had.

I’m a cradle Catholic that still goes to church. Divorce is survivable. It’s not the worst thing that can happen to you. I didn’t realize how much of myself I had lost in my marriage, lost to the soul-sucking vampire that was my ex until I got some distance and started to get some of my old self back.

susie lee
susie lee
1 month ago
Reply to  CurlyChump

“My ex gave me a gift when he asked me for a divorce. ”

I don’t credit him for the gift, I credit God; but yeah it was a gift. I know I would have left within the next few weeks, I was already thinking it through; but him leaving was better.

KatiePig
KatiePig
1 month ago

Oh, communication. I was such an open book and all my communication ever did was teach him how to abuse and manipulate me more effectively. Good communication with an abuser is a bad thing, not a good thing. It’s a weapon to them. People who abuse their partners and have secret lives are the last people anybody should be trying to communicate with.

weedfree
weedfree
1 month ago

I tried the “I feel” statement when I found messages between FW and his sister about various sinister things, cos the idiot had set up family sharing.
I remember thinking at the time maybe he doesn’t understand, maybe I don’t communicate well, so ill try the old “I feel” trick.
God almighty I look back now and laugh. Whilst FW sat there looking very ashamed (in a narc this is not a good thing), he regrouped a day or two later and started accusing me of invading his privacy, how did I think he felt finding out what I had done.
All I did was give him a new trick to use against me.
Moron communicator don’t even bother with these twats.

Elsie_
Elsie_
1 month ago

Blameshifting is a useless rabbit hole in these messes. If you want to end the marriage, end the marriage. But cheating is never justified if your agreement is fidelity. When my ex took off for the beach, he wanted all his blue pills and male hormones. And he said, “If” he cheated, I would be 100% responsible as if I would get on a plane to unzip his pants for him so he could do the deed with some other woman.

If my ex had said, “Hey, marital sex and companionship isn’t cutting it for me, I want a divorce,” of course, I would have been devastated. But being honest about it and decently cutting the cord would have made everything easier (and cheaper).

But no, DARVO and manipulation drove the separation and divorce into a wild frenzy. Thankfully, I knew enough to hire a crack legal team and get every kind of mental health help I could find. I was determined to understand how I had allowed such a mess in my life for so long and to root out what I could. I let go of my ex’s opinions of me and focused on coming out of it a better Elsie than when I went in. So I found meh pretty much after the judge signed. The garbage my ex threw at me after that didn’t stick. I knew better.

Yeah, trust that they suck in the end.

Last edited 1 month ago by Elsie_
Shadow
Shadow
1 month ago

My STBXH is a very poor communicator, but it never occurred to me to even look for another man, never mind actually be unfaithful! He was the one who decided to do that!
Of course, it was MY fault because I didn’t give him “the lurve he NEEEEDS!”.
He didn’t give me the love I need either, but, I still never even thought of being unfaithful!
They just chat bilge to twist the blame onto us! Don’t get taken in by it!

Adelante
Adelante
1 month ago

I’m late to the party because I missed this yesterday, but have to comment, because I heard this same blameshift. “Poor communication was our problem, but I didn’t feel I could talk to you,” he said, neatly sidestepping any responsibility for his actions, ignoring his three year long secret life, and blaming me for the breakdown of our marriage.

SeeingRealTuesday
SeeingRealTuesday
1 month ago

I’m sure there is plenty you communicated wrong. I know I did.

And, like everyone here says, it isn’t your fault.

Still, this is going to be hard. But it was going to be hard no matter what. You didn’t choose this path, but you are here.

Be you. Be who you want to be. Do not let this end you.

I felt completely nuts when a therapist, my wife (who was supposed to be my #1 go-to human), and a handful of friends told me it didn’t matter what happened, what matters is what I could fix.

That is flat wrong. Like any other person, you have the right to set personal boundaries. Anyone who tells you otherwise is up to something.