Does She Ever Regret Cheating on Me?
A college student wonders if his cheating girlfriend ever regrets cheating on him. A lesson in letting go.
***
Dear Chump Lady,
I’m a 21 year old student working a couple jobs. I was with my ex girlfriend – also 21 – for about 14 months. We both felt as though this was it. I have never felt as connected emotionally, physically, and spiritually as I did with her, and she’d expressed the same to me. We were each other’s bests. We took care of each other extremely well, and had excellent communication. No difficulty having hard conversations in order to solve issues as a team. We had discussed marriage, a future life, and logistics and it seemed like we were simply enjoying living and growing with each other in our lives.
She had an emotional affair.
That was until this July. She had an emotional affair with a 35-year-old coworker (who was in a relationship of 5 years, what a creep. She did find out about the affair when I did. ) that eventually led to a physical affair on the night of July 28th. I knew she had a history of infidelity, but we had discussed it a lot and I watched her work on herself to avoid that happening again.
She often told me in the past that she didn’t deserve me, and that she’d fuck up and I’d leave her, and that it was okay because it’s what she deserved. I always reassured her. Nevertheless, we spent the entire month prior to the affair arguing about him. I expressed to her many times that I felt uncomfortable with his interactions with her, but she kept brushing my concerns saying “You don’t trust me”, “He said he’s in a relationship too”, and “Sounds like insecurity/over possessiveness”.
In hindsight, what a load of crap.
She confessed to the physical affair the morning after, but she did not give the whole truth. She told me that they simply fooled around, and didn’t go all the way. Naively, I trusted her. And decided she meant enough to me that I’d like to try and reconcile.
We spent the next three weeks reconciling. My condition was that she never speak to him again, and that he’d be blocked from her phone. She would also look into why her behaviours led to this, and would actively work with me to heal and grow our relationship. She assured me they weren’t speaking, but was adamant that she couldn’t block him due to ADHD and BPD related tendencies. And she also said that he was no comparison to me, either physically, emotionally, mentally, or spiritually.
As we tried, she was avoidant to the point that I tried to leave twice. She couldn’t seem to face the shame or guilt, yet she would cry and beg and say all the good things I wanted to hear so that I’d stay.
In hindsight I should’ve left.
It went like this until she revealed to me that she had slept with him that night, and the day after she confessed. Again she begged, and I folded, but ultimately this was the last nail in the coffin. I split a few days after. Our last conversation always confused me, because she admitted to being a horrible girlfriend, to taking advantage of me, to disrespecting me, to saying things only to not follow up on them. She said I deserved far better.
I have spent the last two months in complete misery. Questioning my self worth, what he had that I didn’t, how she could lie like this and harm me, how she didn’t learn anything from past mistakes. It bothered me that this creep got everything he wanted out of that interaction. I was mad that she entertained his attention despite how uncomfortable I was. I was so hurt that she couldn’t make him uncomfortable in order to help me feel secure.
She ended up sending me back all of the gifts I’d ever given her, along with letters we’d exchanged. It now sits in its box in a corner of my room. I still don’t know what to do with it.
Mind movies and flashbacks to earlier conversations were rampant through my thoughts and it genuinely affected my performance at work and in life. Meanwhile it seemed like she was doing completely fine and enjoying life, despite all her crying and begging.
Only recently was I starting to accept that she simply sucks. That she wanted the attention, she was entitled, she took me for granted and disrespected me. It was hard but I started to accept that they truly had sex, and that she didn’t think about me at all.
I was finally starting to reach “meh”.
That was until about 2 hours ago. I just discovered that she’s been in a long distance relationship with him since we split, and that she’s gone to see him three times in towns we’d travelled to together — first immediately after we split, the second over labor day weekend (my birthday), and the third this recent Thanksgiving.
It feels like I’ve been completely replaced by this creep. It feels like she’s sharing everything that was once precious to us with him. I feel emasculated, and jealous, and so hurt and lied to. I’m so heartbroken because I had been so excited to share my 21st with her, yet she was sleeping with another man the day of.
I feel like I’m back to square one of my healing. Like all of my worst fears from the beginning came true.
The mind movies that were once dissipating are now back in full force. I can’t help but wonder again if he’s a better partner. If she feels safer or more connected. If she’s happier with him. Or if he’s more capable in bed.
For the past 2 months of my suffering and pain, she’s been seeing him. Sleeping with him. Traveling happily with him. Going out with him.
Does she even regret cheating? Was this worthwhile to her?
ChumpLady, I really don’t know what I’m looking for. Your blog and book have been immensely helpful. However everything about this hurts so deeply. My understanding of reality for the past 14 months have been warped, and I’m genuinely scared that I won’t be able to find someone I could connect with that deeply again.
Does this ever get better?
Chump Student
***
Dear Chump Student,
Absolutely DO NOT CONTACT HER.
***
PART 2
Dear Chump Lady,
I ignored your advice not to contact her.
I should’ve listened, I sent my ex a message. She responded, saying she wasn’t emotionally ready to speak with me.
I pushed and we ended up calling later that night anyway. She said that she had truly loved me, that nobody else understood her the way I did, that she should’ve been honest and truthful the moment she started developing feelings, and that I did not deserve to go through the lies and months of pain.
She also admitted that she has commitment issues, is addicted to short-term gratification, and that she put me on a pedestal that I still sit on.
It honestly seems like she’s really acknowledged her faults.
It also seems like she’s been dealing with our breakup as well, and has moved on for the most part. Yet we still had moments of nostalgia, and comfort. The chemistry and connection still felt alive.
I asked her to tell me the truth about whether she was seeing the affair now, despite everything she’d said in the past. I already knew that they’re together. A part of me wanted to feel validated that my fear from the start was correct, and I also just wanted to hear the truth from her.
She didn’t answer me. Rightly so. She said that we’re no longer together, so she has no obligation towards me anymore and I have no right to intimate details of her life. I don’t know why I thought she would answer. It was very entitled of me to just drop in and ask.
After that, I spiraled badly.
I ended up confessing what was still hurting me. She consoled me and said it would eventually get better, but gradually she stopped replying to me. I asked her to block me because I’ve been struggling to keep her life out of mine, and her response was “this is childish as fuck”. That was the last thing she’s ever said to me.
She has every right to be upset with me. I broke no contact, stepped on her boundaries, acted like an entitled idiot, and then relied on her emotional reassurance.
I feel like such a fool all over again. And I don’t even know why I thought it was a good idea. And now I can’t help but feel as though I just destroyed every last drop of my own self-respect, and the respect she had for me. In doing so I feel like I made it infinitely easier for her to go to him, for him to feel like he won, and for them to talk about childish I am together.
I’m a mess. It hurts so much that she’s with him. Hurts that she couldn’t be honest with me. Hurts that I acted like such a fool and humiliated myself again. That she has moved on. Hurts that she seems to be actively developing herself for her AP. Hurt that she was so cold to me, yet ultimately looking out for my feelings and pushing me away so that she could be with him.
I really feel like nothing right now.
I miss how confident and secure I was before/during my relationship with her.
What are your thoughts? Thank you.
***
Dear Chump Student,
Oh, I have so many thoughts. Does she regret cheating on you? No. So stop pain shopping. I wrote back to your first letter and said DO NOT CONTACT HER. That advice is based on years of trial-tested results of What Not To Do as lived by yours truly and a few bazillion people on this blog. But hey, you’re 21. You needed a few more kicks in the teeth, apparently.
So, how’d contacting her work out for you?
I spiraled badly
Yeah. So, listen to what I tell you next, okay? I’m trying to spare you pain. You’re among chumps here. And all of us wish we’d learned these lessons at 21 and not after babies and mortgages and bad STD results.
Pay attention:
SHE SUCKS.
That’s a determination you should’ve made early on into this shitshow. She herself tried to tell you she sucks. She also told you many contradictory things that fed your hopium that she didn’t suck. But Son, when people tell you they suck? They mean it.
I knew she had a history of infidelity
Why work with that? A history of cheating with zero regrets. I get that you’re young, people change, but OTOH — YOU’RE YOUNG. The world is your oyster buffet. Why take on a project? Seriously examine the “Oh? A barbed wire monkey? Don’t mind if I do!” tendency.
That’s your own magical thinking — that you have super powers of love and you can change people. You don’t and you can’t. Judge people by their actions.
This woman had a history of cheating with zero regrets .
She often told me in the past that she didn’t deserve me, and that she’d fuck up and I’d leave her, and that it was okay because it’s what she deserved.
Cheater at Timid Forest Creature setting. Dial turned to self-pity. She’s testing the chump waters here. Seeing if you’re a good mark. She’s telling you that she’s a hot mess that deserves to be left. I know you’re reflexively going “Oh no! I’ll never leave you! You’re not a bad person! You’re an (insert endless stream of kibble superlatives…)!”
Actual decent people don’t do this. Sure, they admit their faults and insecurities. But they do NOT say, “I’m an abhorrent person whom people leave, because they should, based on my appalling behavior.”
Nevertheless, we spent the entire month prior to the affair arguing about him. I expressed to her many times that I felt uncomfortable with his interactions with her, but she kept brushing my concerns saying “You don’t trust me”, “He said he’s in a relationship too”, and “Sounds like insecurity/over possessiveness”.
Do you feel safe in this relationship?
Cherished? No? END IT NOW. The whole “Hi, this looks shady — reassure me” being met with blameshifting is a dealbreaker. Healthy people care if they hurt you.
As for the insecurity and possessiveness — she has a point, (we’ll get to relationship policing in a moment) HOWEVER, most people respond to gaslighting and pick-me dance goading with insecurity. Which then segues into controlling behavior, as the chump tries to control the uncontrollable.
I’m telling you to put down the whole tangled mess and call it a day.
No! I want to CONTROL THE UNCONTROLLABLE!
Of course you do. You’re a chump. And you’re being mindfucked into clinging and policing, because the cheater is enjoying extra kibble portions — your attention and the affair partner(s).
She thrills to the pick me dance you’re performing, so STOP IT.
She ended up sending me back all of the gifts I’d ever given her, along with letters we’d exchanged. It now sits in its box in a corner of my room. I still don’t know what to do with it.
That was spiteful AND it’s a bid for further centrality. You’ll think of her when you see her crap. Toss it, sell it, donate it. Get rid of it.
Meanwhile it seemed like she was doing completely fine and enjoying life, despite all her crying and begging.
Because she’s not deep.
She doesn’t care, about you, about those feelings she fakes.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter what she feels or thinks, because YOU need to determine she’s NOT okay for YOU.
Only recently was I starting to accept that she simply sucks. That she wanted the attention, she was entitled, she took me for granted and disrespected me. It was hard but I started to accept that they truly had sex, and that she didn’t think about me at all.
I was finally starting to reach “meh”.
You weren’t, because you’re not going no contact, like I told you to. But I’m glad the lucidity is setting in. But if you’ve made a determination that she sucks, you don’t need to test that hypothesis any longer.
That was until about 2 hours ago. I just discovered that she’s been in a long distance relationship with him since we split, and that she’s gone to see him three times in towns we’d travelled to together
STOP LOOKING.
They call this “pain shopping.” This whole “Does she regret cheating on me? Does she care?” is the bargaining stage of grief. You don’t trust the suck. Even blaming yourself is a way to regain control, because if it’s your fault, you can fix it. Versus the terrible pain and vulnerability of being played.
The whole stalking her social media or asking her friends, or however you’re collecting this intelligence, is a bad look.
She is an EX-GIRLFRIEND.
You spent 14 months of your young life on a fuckwit. This is totally recoverable. I don’t recommend stalking at any age, but it’s a bit more understandable with deeper sunk costs. She’s a person who did not measure up. Throw her in the barbed wire monkey pile, and work on your discernment.
I can’t help but wonder again if he’s a better partner. If she feels safer or more connected. If she’s happier with him. Or if he’s more capable in bed.
For her? He has a pulse. He pays her attention. People like this aren’t choosey. He’s not Rico Suave. The better question is:
Is she a better partner for YOU?
Did you feel safe? (No)
Happier? (No again.)
Capable in bed? (Not if you’re comparing yourself.)
See how that works? YOU are the decider here. NOT HER. Stop giving her your power.
Does she even regret cheating? Was this worthwhile to her?
You’re untangling the skein of fuckupedness. Stop trying to get inside the rancid oatmeal of her brain. Who cares if she regrets it! YOU regret ever knowing her. Her motivations and feelings are beside the point. She. Does. Not. Matter.
Don’t let rejection rock your world.
You need to know who you are and hold on to your self-worth regardless of whether or not the world recognizes it. Many people are going to reject you in this life. Reject you on dates. Snub you at cocktail parties. Pass you over for a job.
It’s going to sting. And it’s understandable to review the evidence and try and figure out why you weren’t a good fit for that date or job (the cocktail party people just suck). But it can’t destroy you.
If it feels like it’s destroying you, ask yourself why you need this external validation of your worth. Why THEIR opinion matters more than your own internal compass. This is work worth doing. Chasing after a FW’s new boyfriend? Not so much.
The bitch slap portion of today’s post.
I ignored your advice not to contact her.
So, I sent my ex a message. She responded saying she wasn’t emotionally ready to speak with me.
Funny. She was emotionally ready to fuck other guys. Emotions are so pesky.
I pushed and we ended up calling later that night anyway.
Closure doesn’t exist. You’re just sticking your head in the mindfuck blender.
he said that she had truly loved me, that nobody else understood her the way I did, that she should’ve been honest and truthful the moment she started developing feelings, and that I did not deserve to go through the lies and months of pain.
How can you understand someone who isn’t honest and cheats on you? This is all bullshit. She’s throwing you a kibble, so you’ll keep pick me dancing. She’s done with you, but this additional performance is entertaining. All for the low, low price of an apology.
She also admitted that she has commitment issues, is addicted to short-term gratification, and that she put me on a pedestal that I still sit on.
Again, this is her testing the chump waters. She’s telling you she sucks. Will you keep pursuing? By pedestal, I think she means this:
I asked her to tell me the truth about whether she was seeing the affair now, despite everything she’d said in the past. I already knew that they’re together.. A part of me wanted to feel validated that my fear from the start was correct, and I also just wanted to hear the truth from her.
Why are you asking for the truth from a lying liar who lies?!
Why are you turning to this horrible unworthy person for VALIDATION? She stole your reality for 14 months! She’s not going to give it back. Moreover, SHE IS A PERSON WHO STEALS REALITIES. This is like going to a Texas BBQ and demanding kale salad. They don’t serve that here.
She didn’t answer me. Rightly so. She said that we’re no longer together, so she has no obligation towards me anymore and I have no right to intimate details of her life. I don’t know why I thought she would answer. It was very entitled of me to just drop in and ask.
Yes, you’ve broken up and the details of her complicated love rhombuses are her business, not yours. But also she’s not answering you because she doesn’t want to validate you (share kibbles? No) or waste energy lying (you’re a depleted kibble source), or tell the truth. (Why give you her power? Dance some more, sucker.)
You should’ve stayed no contact. Welcome to the mindfuck blender where entitled people accuse you of being entitled.
She consoled me and said it would eventually get better, but gradually she stopped replying to me. I asked her to block me because I’ve been struggling to keep her life out of mine, and her response was “this is childish as fuck”. That was the last thing she’s ever said to me.
I know you feel like shit for debasing yourself for a FW, but her last words could’ve been “I’ll take U.S. Presidents for $500, Alex.” It doesn’t matter. She’s someone who is out of your life.
I can’t help but feel as though I just destroyed every last drop of my own self-respect, and the respect she had for me.
She never had any respect for you, as evidenced by her cheating. And who cares? She’s not a person YOU can respect. Her opinion is irrelevant.
Hurts that she seems to be actively developing herself for her AP. Hurt that she was so cold to me, yet ultimately looking out for my feelings and pushing me away so that she could be with him.
She’s not working on herself for him. She’s a person with a “history of cheating.” Now, you’re one more failed relationship in a long line of chumps. You’re not her savior. And neither is he. She likes being this way. He didn’t win anything.
Student Chump, this is long. I don’t know if CN made it this far. But you’re young and I hope you’re listening to us old timers. It gets better. It’s good to feel and bond, and there are a bazillion people out there who feel and bond too and you can connect with. Dream new dreams. Big ((hugs)).
“I was so hurt that she couldn’t make him uncomfortable in order to help me feel secure”.
You thought you were Plan A because, sometimes, she said so. You found out that your needs followed his needs and her needs and whomever might strike her fancy next.
You’re confused and in pain and that will lessen with time. Take that time to make yourself Plan A. Practice self-care, explore new interests and a career, volunteer.
Do not commit to someone else until you can care for yourself – until you can cover your expenses, until you can self soothe, until you can see and avoid red flags.
And expect the same from others.
Closure is acknowledging and accepting the situation for what it IS…not what you hoped or thought it WAS.
Whether or not a person regrets how they treated you, doesn’t change a damn thing. You were betrayed. You were lied to. You were deceived. If they feel bad now…it doesn’t matter. What matters is that you are not willing to be subjected to that kind of treatment ever again FROM ANYONE.
I dated a lot before I got married & sometimes that meant I broke up with people for some very dumb reasons. I also got broken up with for some very dumb reasons. I was young, testing the waters & figuring out what I wanted. It might be that your ex is doing the same (it sounds like she’s attracted and flattered by older guys rn)…I’ll give her this in spite of her shitty behaviour towards you. The two of just don’t seem matched in long term goals tbh. You’re looking for serious & she’s fooling around with a partnered up guy who likely will dump her at some point. I know what you might be thinking (you’ll be there for her when that happens) but DON’T. She’s still a crappy person – she didn’t have to treat you this way even if she wanted to play the field. She could have broken up with you 1st! This will actually be your chance to take back your power & control & prove to her that you’re not “childish as fuck”. It’s time for you to do your power moves & start moving towards dating other people. Get some counselling if you need the boost to get you out the door.
Hmmm, I also dated a lot before marriage and could be a bit whimsical about it. I understand that we can make mistakes when we’re young. But I don’t buy the “youth” excuse for the level of skeeziness that Chump Student is talking about. For one I can remember being 16, 17 and noticing that even twenty year olds could seem corrupt and crusty to me. It was never about level of sexual activity which I didn’t judge. It was about the capacity to knowingly hurt harmless people and a certain level of baked in callousness and sexual social climbing that made people seem like worn out old cynics. Women tend to disguise this kind of ickiness with fake ingenue behavior that I always found particularly scary. The same people make horrible friends and worse classmates and coworkers.
Also it turns out that concept of the supposed “incomplete” state of brain development before age 25 was based on a web meme and had zero basis in actual science. You might see kids with a fully formed brain at age 8 and someone with synaptic gaps at age 50.
> and sexual social climbing
I once saw that described online as ‘upwardly nubile’, which I rather liked 🙂
Hilarious.
Whaaaa—? Well, she gets points for originality, I guess. Then again, they’re all the same. Nonsense excuses.
So common now for people to use psychological excuses for their bad behavior – it’s the modern version of “The Devil made me do it.” and just about as true.
“That was until about 2 hours ago. I just discovered that she’s been in a long distance relationship with him since we split, and that she’s gone to see him three times in towns we’d travelled to together — first immediately after we split, the second over labour day weekend (my birthday), and the third this recent Thanksgiving.
It feels like I’ve been completely replaced by this creep. It feels like she’s sharing everything that was once precious to us with him. I feel emasculated, and jealous, and so hurt and lied to. I’m so heartbroken because I had been so excited to share my 21st with her, yet she was sleeping with another man the day of.”
Something else that is not new with cheaters… my FW of 18 years who cheated on me while pregnant last year and abandoned me for the AP quite literally replaced me with her and this very second he is grooming her to be me. Although I do not pain shop anymore, I do know that he has taken her to our vacation spot, our restaurants, and literally done everything we used to do together. It is truly a sickening realization. And they do that because they are so shallow…
While you are so young, the pain is no different no matter what age you are. Know that your worth is NOT defined by her. The best thing to do (which I am still working on and I still make mistakes in my own healing journey) is to truly go no contact which means don’t look at her social media; block her. Every day do something that brings you joy. And look at this as a blessing because she will continue to cheat and now you are free from that. Cheaters don’t have character transplants, ever.
Sometimes you just have to close the door. Hard! It’s a shock and is super painful, but some people don’t deserve your time and attention.
I did that on a marriage of several decades. I felt like I was leaning into a buzz saw that was going to tear me apart, but I had to do that to get to the other side.
During my messy divorce, my wonderful attorney encouraged me to deliberately step away from the chaos because what I knew was likely only the tip of the iceberg. At that point, my job was to get through the legal mess (thankfully, you don’t have that) and to prepare for the other side. He also repeatedly said that closure is overrated. Most people don’t get closure after the end of a relationship. You have to trust that they suck and move on.
I agree that you need to potentially get some professional help to evaluate why you held onto this for as long as you did. You need to learn how to watch for the red flags early on and have the confidence to get out of a relationship before it brings you down. I learned in therapy and a twelve-step group that I thought that I could control my ex and somehow save my marriage if I just held on long enough. The reality is that the foundation was completely broken up, and it was long over.
She’s not acting like she doesn’t care, she doesn’t care.
Does she regret it? No, not at all.
Does she think you’re worthwhile? absolutely not, but who cares?
She isn’t worthwhile.
Actions speak louder than words…
She’s clearly let you know how she feels about you, believe her.
This is who she is, a person with no values, who cares only for herself.
The reality is you were conned.
Be grateful you didn’t waste more than 14 months of your life with her.
Before you get involved in another relationship, I suggest you find a therapist that can help build your confidence.
Like 21-year-olds even know what “best” means at that stage of life. Quite frankly, reading Chump Student’s missives made me feel very uncomfortable. This person is nowhere near reality, let alone acceptance, and forget about getting to meh any time soon. A lot of his behavior sounds delusional, obsessed and stalker-ish. As much as I hate to be dismissive (but here I go), this wasn’t a 20-year marriage with kids and properties and legal documents. I might understand the caterwauling in that case. This was a year-long dating relationship between two very young people. The ex-girlfriend sounds hella melodramatic but so does Chump Student. Get a grip, please, for your own sake.
I don’t even have any advice because it’s clear that this dude isn’t interested in taking advice from anyone. He’s just going to stalk his ex and make himself sick over it until she gets a restraining order on him. I hope he takes time to get some intensive therapy or something.
It’s easy to forget what a first intense relationship is like after high school,
But let’s take your point that 21 is too young to know what “best” means. I got married at that age because the guy tried to kill himself after I broke up with him. I thought that meant I shouldn’t break up.Two years later he tried to kill me. Clearly, I had no idea about what was acceptable in general, let alone what was healthy for me.
My point is that young people are often very confused about what a relationship is. They think in terms of intensity of emotion and not in terms of character. If Person A has intense feelings, they seem like the most important thing in the world.
Wow! Judge much! You sound like you are pretty early in your discard and very angry. Grief recovery is a difficult process at any age. This chump experience is as traumatic to him as yours is to you. It would have been great to have learned this lesson before the 21 yrs, kids and legal divorce separation of assets. I wish you both healthy recovery that evolves into a happier life than what you are going through now.hugs!
Your comment is nothing but dismissing another Chump, for the crime of being young and inexperienced. Did something in the comments policy change so that Pain Olympics is now okay, and the name of the game is sneering at fellow chumps who didn’t have it as bad as we did?
I didn’t get that vibe, looking at his age (21) this relationship was 6% of his entire life. Being fed a stream of “love conquers all” and chump blaming from media (and the RIC) is hard to overcome. The message that they suck, will always suck, and you deserve better is hard to accept.
Or maybe he’s just been deceived and lied to for the first time and, unlike us jaded old farts, is not only coping with the loss of a relationship but also with confronting the reality that there are people – even people close to you – who will stab you in the back.
Perhaps he’ll be lucky enough to be cheated on after a 20 year marriage like you (and me, rounding up) so that he can retroactively realize what small potatoes his current predicament is, but in the meantime let’s cut him a little slack.
I never really knew what happened to a few people when I stopped dating them as a teen because social media and the internet didn’t exist beyond high end office settings. So I can tell myself that, when young, I was very good at letting go. But that’s easy to say because there was really no other option, at least not beyond much more radical and embarrassing behaviors like physical stalking or prying for information from mutual acquaintances which I wouldn’t get caught dead doing.
Yes–he’s young enough to be really shocked by “the reality that there are people – even people close to you – who will stab you in the back.”
I kind of wished I was chumped at 21 (well…, I was by my loser boyfriend – soon-to-be husband of 30 years) and had learned my lesson. Alas, I didn’t. But I learned my lesson, FINALLY, and I’d rather be single than ever deal with liars and cheaters again.
THIS. It hurts to be chumped at any age, but when you’re chumped when you’re so young, it can be very disillusioning and possibly set negative patterns for the future. ABUSE (which is what cheating IS) IS DAMAGING AT ANY AGE, perhaps for varied reasons but it should never be dismissed or treated lightly. It can be absolutely traumatic.
Thank you, Mehitable, for this compassionate position. Reading the LW’s experience, I was brought back to my own shockingly painful first “lesson” in cruel relationship partners, at LW’s age. That FW was someone whom I’ve only just recently remembered cheated on me twice (not just the once that I typically recall). It was as painful as LW describes, but in reading his experience, the one thing I can say I am extremely grateful for is that I hardened my heart rather than pick-me dance.
But I wanted to tell LW that I did not know then to harden it quite enough. I had no idea then about hoovering, and the FW waited a full year before using my best friend as his pity-channel flying monkey, (Wasn’t her fault, she was as naive as me). She was perfectly positioned behind my wall of silence. So the wall crumbled and I lost another couple of years to this worthless person.
So my life lesson to LW is just to be truly braced for this known, common tactic: Brace for your sucky ex to show up again in some form, singing your praises with the appearance of remorse. It’s not genuine, my friend. It’s the sirens of Greek mythology, and its sole goal is to wreck you. Expect it, and plug your ears to it like your life depends on it.
As for anyone suggesting LW is melodramatic because he hasn’t invested 20 years in this relationship, I grant you your pain. I am sorry. But I so hope your experience can be part of what helps save LW from also ending up devastated by such an immense level of life betrayal.
Oh, how I wish that at age 21, I’d had CL‘s wisdom and discernment! That’s when I married my college sweetheart, halfway through my senior year, deliriously happy. Little did I know he’d already cheated on me with at least one other coed, and he wasn’t about to let a little ole thing like marrying me stop him from continuing.
Over the next 40 years, I was very slowly and systematically lied to, cheated on, betrayed, devalued, gaslit and homogenized, until I literally didn’t know who I was. On the eve of my wedding, I was a happy, trusting, independent, bust-your-chops 21-year-old young woman ready to conquer the universe with my love by my side. Completely authentic and excited about life! But by the time he walked out the door, I’d transformed into a one-dimensional, colorless, odorless, cardboard cut-out of someone who used to be me; I never realized I was the poor little froggy in the pot of boiling water. He cleverly and expertly groomed me into believing I was a pathetically helpless, totally dependent, eggshell-walking, stressed out, fearful old lady who simply couldn’t survive a day without him.
But with the help of a fabulous therapist, time, and going Zero Contact (which took me far too long to initiate), the scales finally fell from my eyes, and I could see, feel, and embrace the reality that everything he ever said to me or did with me was a lie. The only real things I have from my marriage are my 3 children.
Today, I’m back to being a happy, independent, bust-your-chops woman… completely authentic and excited about life — though understandably someone who’s slower to trust — wiser, more seasoned and less gullible than the 1970s version was. I wake up every single day filled with gratitude! Never again will I squander my self-respect, my emotional bandwidth or my mental well-being on a bad actor; I simply don’t have enough time left on this earth to play that game, so the minute I get a whiff of fuckwittery, I’m done.
Chump Student, I have some good news, which is that this too will pass (if you go no contact), and that not long at all in the future, you’ll look back on this person and wonder what the heck you ever saw in her. You’ll remember that you thought she was ‘the one’ and you’ll wonder why on earth you ever felt that way.
Your FW is a train wreck of a human being who decided she wanted to be with a cheater creep nearly half again her own age. It’s going to be hard for you to feel this now, but it’s true: she was not the one, she was a train wreck of a person, and you are well away from her.
Dude. The next time some girl says you’re too good for her, BELIEVE HER. Your ex-girlfriend is a lying liar who lies. The only truthful things she ever told you is the bad stuff about herself.
You knew she had a history of cheating? And you started dating her anyway? Bad choice. Really bad choice. Yes, I know people can change and all that. But people who cheat need to match up with other people who cheat. They can try to keep each other on the straight and narrow. Or have open relationships. Or whatever.
Also, what’s this thing about ADHD and BPD issues? Who has issues? Is it this young woman or her cheater boyfriend? And which BPD is this? Is it Bi-Polar or Borderline Personality Disorder? If your ex-girlfriend has a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder then she has the kind of long-term issues that you are not prepared to deal with. Change is incredibly difficult with that diagnosis.
Look, I was married for 25 years and have 5 kids with a man who has a probable diagnosis of a personality disorder (per our marriage counselor). It makes you crazy to be around that mess. I still have moments when I wonder what was real and what wasn’t, and I’ve been divorced for over 10 years now. I speak from experience when I tell you to
RUN AWAY. NOW!
NO CONTACT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!!
This drama queen may have been exciting and fun, but you do not need that shit in your life.
What they say:
“I don’t deserve you.”
What they really mean:
“I don’t love you as much as you love me.”
The game here is that they feel guilty and want you to reassure them that the privilege of basking in the glow of their presence is all you need in life.
It’s also a test to see if you are likely to stick around if they cheat, even if just as Plan B.
“I was so hurt that she couldn’t make him uncomfortable in order to help me feel secure”.
I’m piggybacking on StepbyStep’s post (the 1st one on the comments.)
Dear Student Chump;
No one can help you feel more secure. If someone cheats (or lies or steals), they’ve broken your trust. You can’t “feel secure” because this person is not trustworthy. People feel secure when they know the person they’re dealing with is trustworthy. I can loan my car to my brother because he will take care of it, bring it back full of gas, and pay for any damages he causes. When he handled my mother’s money at the end of her life, we were 100% in sync because our values around money are the same. I can trust him because what he says and what he does are the same.
What this passage above describes is a triangle. You wanted her to hurt him to elevate you. That’s not how intimate relationships work. There aren’t 3rd parties in them, whether they are affair partners or a clingy mother or an ex. If you are in a triangle, remove yourself. And stay away.
I hope you take a long while off from dating. Work on your education or your career. Start saving money. Think about traveling with a buddy over the summer. You have 3-4 more years for full brain development and these are years where you should be building yourself, not focused on a girl who is a barbed-wire monkey cheater. Start looking at peoples’ character. Are they honest (and not just telling you about their poor character to manipulate you, e.g., “you’ll find out and leave me”). Notice men and women who show up for others, whose words and deeds are consistent. Don’t fall for the pretty face or attractive body or the superficial charm.
And you need to trust yourself to live according to your values. Your shame and disgust at yourself at the end of letter #2 is the result of not having basic standards of conduct. If someone breaks up with you, or you break up with them, that means no contact. Otherwise you are not just prolonging your pain, you are debasing yourself. Don’t do that. Trust that you will survive ending a relationship because you will. You will.
Greetings Mssr. Chump Student,
I saw this whole thing and it pissed me off. Mostly because, well, how hauntingly similar it is to my own very similar story(my D-Day was right around the same time this year, though I am twice as long-lived as you are and had a significantly longer period of time before things hit the fan with mine.) It hit very close to home-particularly at the “big pile of returned gifts” (and packing the ones she was keeping in front of me-class act, that one). I’m not pissed at you though-I’m walking that road as well and I know how you got there.
Before I say anything else, I am very, very sorry that she put you through all of that. I am sad and angry for you. I know what it’s like to go through that level of betrayal, mind games, and questions related to self worth-and it blows. That shit is so isolating. I spent 6 weeks in a complete fog over mine.
You have also came to the right place.
I know it’s a hard pill to swallow right now, but the monster was right about one thing: you deserve far, far better than any of that. This shit is not your fault or about how good you are or are not: she made a choice to violate and abuse you that you were never going to be able to do anything about. Love does a lot of wonderful things-curing selfish and stupid shit in other people is not among those things. I have done my share of overthinking the “if-onlys” and having those imaginary arguments in my head to “Win” and make things rational. There is no rationality to be had and winning the argument doesn’t put my happiness and trust back. I don’t think it will for you, either.
It’s like that bit in Star Wars: “Lies, deceit, greed, and mistrust are (her) ways now.” She already hurt you about as bad as you can be hurt and will probably do it again if given the chance.
Please keep asking yourself-is that what you want? Are you ok with that? Are you happier with a life of fear of further abandonment or hurt than not having her around?
I also want the “beautiful closure” with mine-to close that period of my life(over a decade) with some beauty for my own aesthetics(almost 2 months of no contact here-I have had temptations but realize no good will ever come from the catharsis of…well…sinking to her level, honestly.) There is no way to do that without seeing her again(and my therapist had to giggle and tell me the last way I saw mine was apropos). It’s not worth that pain, though.
This person has done more than enough harm to you. You have to protect yourself, because she isn’t. Get your closure by growing beyond her. When you’re ready(and if you can trust again-I certainly hope I can when the time comes), give all of that wonderful, STRONGER love to somebody that DOES deserve it(and doesn’t make ADHD and BPD shortcuts around when you set a limit.)
Stay mighty. You DO deserve more. Just make sure you run toward it when it comes.
I was your age when I got into a
relationshiphostage situation with a narcissistic sociopath like your ex.He showed blatant red flags in the first 6 months: entitlement, hot/cold mind games, “I don’t deserve you”, bullying, pity parties, etc.
But I was young like you, and naive… and I wasted the next DECADE on this freak. Whenever we broke up (again), I’d obsess over trying to find closure until he inevitably came back to abuse me some more.
Don’t be me. You have no idea how fortunate you are to get away from your ex. She’s a freak, and she hurt you because she sucks. Stop looking for a deeper answer, because there isn’t one.
Why does she suck? Who cares? You’re not being paid to understand her psychology. Some people have personality disorders and are broken on a core level. That’s all you need to know. Seriously.
I’m so sorry you’re having this experience and I’m not sorry you’re having this experience. You sound like a kind caring young man. I relate to this as a young person who also couldn’t let go of a boyfriend. I was almost obsessed with this person when he let me know several times that he was not interested in me. But I kept going back. I have big issues of fear of rejection, it is so powerful. I should’ve learned my lesson then! I did not have positive self-worth back then, and clearly not for many many years after. I’m sorry for myself that I didn’t get it when I was your age.
After all this time, I think the best way to start taking care of yourself and build your self-worth is to focus on doing nice things for yourself. Really treating yourself like you’d like to be treated…taking care of yourself, learning to be comfortable being alone. There are many people out there who are healthy and, who will be a friend to you. Finding your own tribe, people who are interested in things you’re interested in. Whether it’s joining a club for something you really like..robotics, skiing, basket weaving, whatever.. there are many people out there, who have the same interests you do, and in those groups you’ll find People who you can relate to and who will appreciate you and will want to be with you and who you want to be with. They’re not in bars, And they’re not people who are encumbered with another person. Please keep writing to us. Let us know how you’re doing. This toxic person is in the rearview mirror (thank god), but not the lesson. Take care of yourself. Be your own best friend! Good luck and big hugs.
I tend to see self-worth as a product of self-efficacy, defined by the American Psychological Association as “confidence in the ability to exert control over one’s own motivation, behavior, and social environment.” That’s what I think it means to trust yourself, to have confidence that no matter how difficult the situation, you can manage what you control–your own response, your own behavior, and in normal circumstances, with whom you associate.
Self-efficacy (a form of confidence) is developed by handling problems in your own life. Here’s an example. After my XH moved out, I was terrified of dealing with 2 acres of hilly yard with huge trees. I had trouble keeping the riding mower running. A yard service quoted me $1500 for leaf removal, which I couldn’t afford. I spent 3-4 years trying to do it all myself. But each time I went at the problem, I got better at making choices, trying new things, etc. Now, caring for the house, the yard, the trees, billions of leaves, broken pipes, etc. is just what I do. I have people to call for advice. I know where I sit financially and I make the best decision in the moment and then move on. If I find myself collapsed on the couch when I have a deadline to meet, I know how to get myself up and moving. And it’s self-efficacy that helps me be immune to charming men with little to offer but chaos.
I think self-efficacy is a weird “word”; self-confidence works better for me. Self worth is being comfortable in my skin and knowing I belong and have value-my lay persons idea of what works. However, the definition and description make sense. Hugs!
Very early in my divorce in the summer of 2017 when I could actually stand to look at Asshat and have a conversation, I asked him how he would feel walking our daughter down the aisle knowing there was a man like him waiting to marry his daughter. He literally had a visceral cringe of disgust and spit out with a shrug, “Of course not!”
It was that moment when I realized how deeply flawed he was to his core and did not want to change. I was working with nothing. Truly a barbed wire monkey.
No contact is key. Every interaction with Asshat after that was intentionally high conflict, mean to inflict pain and leave scars. I have not had a conversation with him since March 2018, in spite of numerous post divorce court hearings. Get out while you have no ties that bind. Chalk it up to lesson learned and move on down the road.
Chump Student – as awful as this feels and is….you had an early lesson in Chumphood that hopefully will keep you from ever making a mistake like this again. You might have married this girl and had children with her and that would have badly affected every aspect of your life for many years. This early lesson is invaluable, regard it as such. This is an old cliche, but it’s a cliche because it’s true. When someone shows…or tells….you what they are….believe them. She told you right along that she was not worthy of you, that’s she’s not a good person, that you’re much better than her….and she was absolutely right and that was an honest assessment. It’s not just her feeling bad about herself….she may not actually feel that badly about herself….many Cheaters know what they are and they accept themselves that way. They don’t necessarily want to change or improve or be like you, etc…..they can go on as they are perhaps, indefinitely. She was right in her assessment of herself, believe it….she’s not as good as you, she’s not worthy of you, in fact, HER REAL LEVEL IS THE CREEP. HE is her level. So often we see this in cheating where someone leaves a seemingly wonderful spouse and family and living situation for someone who is OBVIOUSLY inferior in many ways, frequently even physically….because water seeks its own level and they seek people they can be comfortable with instead of rising to the difficult and painful task of changing themselves. She found someone who is LIKE HER and she’s more comfortable with him even knowing he will cheat on her and be inferior to you in many ways because….THAT IS HER LEVEL. He doesn’t require much from her and she likes it. She doesn’t feel inferior to him….he’s as bad as she is or worse. Don’t take her last words – or any of her words – to heart. Cheaters need to defend themselves by attacking the Chumps, it’s almost an instinctive level and doesn’t reflect on you at all. The only problem in your situation is that you were willing to tolerate so much deception and bad behavior from someone – don’t do this again in the future and never try to “save” someone else. They can only save themselves and they’ll usually drag you down into the mud with them.
Good luck, and if you stay absolutely no contact and no checking social media, this will fade faster than you think. A big help is to GET ANGRY WITH HER – BE ANGRY…..she deserves this for how she treated you. Righteous anger will help you get past this injury and insult faster.
The perfect post.
It’s written that cheaters are as shallow as a puddle, and it’s true. Plus, she KNEW he was involved with someone for 5 YEARS and she didn’t care. She sought him out. She lacks character. They seem to choose downgrades, and her AP is certainly a downgrade. They both knew what they were doing and they did it anyway, not caring who they hurt. This isn’t someone you want in your life.
Anger is a wonderful emotion in the beginning. It spurs you on to action. Get that box of stuff out of your apartment, toss it all, don;t save anything, not even one letter, it’s all in your rearview mirror. Write a list of all the crap she pulled on you; the lies, the put downs, all of it. Refer to it when you feel shaky.
There are so many excellent posts on ChumpLady that will help you in your healing. Some won’t apply to your situation but many will. Read them and keep the parts you need to heal. And you WILL heal from this betrayal.
The most important thing I did to aid my healing was going No Contact. FW called me at work, using his sweetest (most manipulative) voice to say “I know the law gives you half, but what do you REALLY want” hoping I’d say ‘nothing’. I screamed at him that I wanted to never hear his fucking voice again, and I hung up on him. Best thing ever! No social media at that time, so I was lucky in that respect. Block her on everything. Other things that may help you are journaling, lots of physical activity, keep yourself busy with other projects, work, friends, etc.
Good luck and keep us posted on your journey. Join the facebook group, there are other men there who will share with you.
Best assessment of FWs ever– thanks Mehitable. Never underestimate how much FW’s feel “inferior” to the typical chump moral compass. That’s such an important thing to point out.
Actually moral/ethical people typically don’t understand what a gift they have because they know the price of being like this. It increases vulnerability and can suck at times. And since it’s usually learned from the cradle, it feels like a helpless, default condition, not really a choice. But in the twisted, sick minds of FWs, chumps are only taking the moral high ground as a competitive “pose.” In the dog-eat-dog, kill-or-be-killed mindset that most FWs live in, that moral position can’t be real or sincere. It pisses them off and they want to prove it’s not real. I think that’s one of the reasons that many FWs seem like they’re seeking “revenge” by cheating.
Thank you, Mehitable. I’m 9 years out post DDay (actually, the second DDay.) I really am at Meh, and I’m happy, and I know that he did me the biggest favor with his duplicity causing me to discard him. And like chump student, I felt shame. But after my second DDay, I stayed no contact and finally healed. But I’m thanking you for this new insight, i.e., “she may not actually feel that badly about herself….many Cheaters know what they are and they accept themselves that way. They don’t necessarily want to change or improve or be like you, etc….. they can go on as they are perhaps, indefinitely.” I think your insight just gave me an ‘Aha’ moment. My ex married his fuckwit affair partner that cheated on her husband of 35 years. They’re seemingly happy (which subconsciously has irked me.) But when you said that they seek people with whom they can be comfortable, in fact, they actually pursue people that won’t require them to change, I finally understood. I think you untangled (part) of the skein for me. The two fuckwits pursued each other to satisfy their shallow thrills. And knowing that their counterpart is just as disordered as they are, they never have to feel guilt or shame. They are comfortable because they never have to be noble or virtuous, and can continue to be lying liars that lie. I made my fuckit totally uncomfortable. Now he never has to be uncomfortable in his relationship with his skank. They are content with each other. And if they screw around on each other, no big deal. They’ll just say to the other, “You knew who I was when you married me.” AHA!!
I’m so glad I was able to give a useful thought 🙂 I think we as a society far underestimate how much many people just enjoy being bad, or just accept that about themselves because it’s the easiest way to live. A lot of bad people are very accepting of themselves, not everyone wants to change….they just want to fool the unwary.
“It’s not just her feeling bad about herself….she may not actually feel that badly about herself….many Cheaters know what they are and they accept themselves that way.”
This is such a good point. Think about criminals who know very well that what they are doing is wrong but continue to do the wrong thing. We know they know it’s wrong because they try so hard not to get caught, they lie when caught OR they play “suicide by cop.” Either way, they know.
P.S. I feel I have to add this but she may try to come back to you when she breaks up with him eventually or her life doesn’t succeed in various ways – she might try to use you as a safety net. DON’T DO THIS. Don’t ever take her back and don’t ever even consider or imagine or fantasize about or God forbid, pursue this. She’s not going to change they RARELY do, and if they do, it’s all internal work they usually avoid. She’d just be using you as a resource, never allow anyone to treat you like this. Never take back someone who abuses or lies to you….you just buy more pain.
Chump Student – about those gifts and letters – get rid of them. There are various ways to do this. If there’s anything of value you could sell it, maybe on eBay. You could burn it if you can do this safely, some people do. You can donate things that are usable. You can bury it in someone’s yard some place or a park or whatever. You can throw it in a lake. Some people hold a ritual they make up to remove the power of the person and things from their lives and just lay them to rest in some way. But whatever you do…..don’t keep ANY of this stuff and don’t give it to anyone where you might see it later on. As much as possible, it’s good to wipe her out of your life like a bad smell. Open that window and let the air in!
Chump Student is an exceptionally good writer for being so young so I’m guessing he might be intellectually on the “gifty” side. Because of this, I’m sensing that this exFW represented a kind of social “Sherpa”– someone more on the average Joe/Jane side who tends to be a bit of a social butterfly and whose shallow values mesh rather well with the TikTok/Instagram crowd. So, if Chump Student tends to be a bit of a gifted outlier in a social sense, feeling like “part” of the wider social sphere by dating a seeming representative of the in-crowd could be tempting.
Falling for someone who puts on behavior that represents a sort of cinematic fantasy and represents having “high social stock value” isn’t only the pitfall of gifty outliers. It’s a pitfall of being young and getting ideas about character and attractiveness from mass media. It’s something I’ve warned my kids about since they could surf the web because I recognized that, especially in the streaming age, “sexual templates” can be formed from media without people realizing it. Unfortunately, many of these templates are absurdly unrealistic and, worse, the way mass media has universalized these “templates” gives sociopaths more to surgically model themselves on. Sociopaths are particularly good at play-acting the part of tropes (“manic pixie dream girl,” “nurturing earth princess,” “misunderstood artiste,” etc. Whatever is your fancy, they’ll figure it out and project it back, Talented Mr. Ripley style).
So my guess is also that this exFW has the classic personality disorder trait of “mirroring” and, at least for a while, pretended to speak in the same language and have the same emotional and intellectual depth that Chump Student quite obviously displays. ExFW was probably able to get some practice doing this from films and TV by aping characters who seem to have depth. But, as with most fatally-shallow, attachment-disordered Cluster B types, wearing that mask and engaging in mirroring gets exhausting after a time and they start longing to “let their hair down” and hang around with fellow disordered FWs, which is exactly what she did. She went and mate-poached another mate poacher (Google “mate poacher + psychopathy + narcissism” for the studies on it).
So-called mate poachers (just generally people who lack character or ethics) are really not much more than “hybristophiliacs” or “prison grouples” who are sexually attracted to liars, cheats, grifters or, in extreme cases, even felons or killers. It’s not a very safe or fulfilling way to live for obvious reasons so they may, after getting burned badly enough, periodically trawl around for an innocent chump, usually with the completely unreasonable expectation that someone decent and reliable will “inspire” the FW to be a “better person.” But when this turns out not to work and the FW finds themselves still being their factory-standard, skeezy self, they get angry at the chump for “failing” to “inspire” the magical character upgrade. That’s when they “punish” with betrayal or other forms of abuse. They’ll also quickly drift back to the dark side so they can “be themselves” in the company of equal creeps. Then they get burned again, then they trawl for “wholesome” again, etc., etc., and on and on.
The reason I bring up the “gifty” thing is because I grew up with a lot of prodigies, have a couple intellectually precocious kids and I know that “giftiness” is not always a day at the beach. It can add a layer of vulnerability. It can be fabulous if someone eventually grows into themselves, embraces their own differences, develops their passions and finds a social niche of like minded indidivuals. But, in other ways, giftiness is almost like having a medical condition that requires specialized care. There can be greater emotional, social and physical sensitivity, tendency to worry about the world and also the fact that people with precocious abilities don’t socially mesh with as many people as average bears. This can lead to periods of social isolation and bring the risk of depression or even of being exploited or abused (abusers can more easily set up a “protection racket” to entrap victims who don’t have a consistent group of close friends).
So I’d recommend to Chump Student a bit of self reflection and getting to know himself in a deeper sense on the way to fixing his picker. Sometimes we feel drawn to people who represent parts of ourselves that seem underdeveloped so the other person carries the illusion of being the “missing part.” It may not be about serious personal deficits but, especially for young people, certain parts of themselves may still be “under construction.” In any case, seeking another person who seems to be that “missing part” can be a big trap.
If any of these ideas seem to fit, there’s a rather beautiful but underappreciated theory in psychology called “Positive Disintegration” (decent article on it in Wikipedia) that seems especially well suited for sensitive, gifted “worrier” types seeking personal evolution and wholeness.
HOAC – You are such a font of wisdom. I had never read anywhere on the vulnerability of “giftedness” before, but your information really helped a few things make sense (as a former gifted child that had trouble making friends as a youth). Thank you for sharing your insights.
CurlyChump– It’s important research and I don’t know why these findings aren’t better known. Maybe it’s because a lot of people conflate classic “giftedness” with Asperger’s these days though there are very distinct differences (for one, in a better world, anyone who exploited or emotionally abused someone with an actual neurological disability would go to prison for decades).
For example, there was a study from the 90s finding that, in kindergarten, half of all gifted students were female but, by seventh grade, only a quarter remained. What happened to the missing quarter? Researchers speculated that, since behaviors related to giftedness– like being talkative when the child was expected to be silent or being silent when the child was expected to talk– tended to be socially punished more in girls than boys. The idea was that many of the “disappeared” gifted girls had simply hidden their “lights” under a “bushel” in order to fit in. Researchers found that many formerly gifted female children later began catastrophically depressed. Some ended up in abusive relationships.
There was no discussion in the latter research about how gifted kids might face more social challenges but, when I worked in advocacy, we sometimes talked about this as a factor in social isolation that could increase some people’s vulnerability to being entrapped by abuse. Some women aren’t entrapped because they lack self esteem in other words. Some may be entrapped because it’s just a bit more challenging for them to create solid social networks due to being “gifty/nerdy” outliers. I find that incredibly tragic.
All in all, as much as “giftedness” has started to seem like some snowflake/elite category that entitled parents want to slate their kids with, it’s not that fun if it’s actually real. There’s also Zimmerman’s research on “fragile mitochondria” among gifted infants and children tying rapid brain development to a degree of impairment in immune function. It’s a weird concept but fits with the “expensive tissue” theory that the immune system “competes” with brain development for metabolic fuel and, if one faculty “wins,” it’s at the expense of the other.
The above research led to a paper about how nature does not “favor” intellectual precocity because gifted children are far more likely to die from minor infections and also modern toxic exposure. Zimmerman’s research ties in with Camilla Benbow’s findings that gifted kids tend to have double the the rates of allergies compared to typical children and also more tendency for nearsightedness.
Another very insightful comment! I’m so glad I logged in today. Between your insight and Mehitable’s, I’m getting an education. I had an ‘Aha’ moment when Mehitable posted that these people really don’t want to change, essentially, they gravitate to each other. You’re saying something very similar when you say that they “periodically trawl around for an innocent chump“, and “But when this turns out not to work…, they get angry at the chump for “failing” to “inspire” the magical character upgrade. That’s when they “punish” with betrayal or other forms of abuse. They’ll also quickly drift back to the dark side so they can “be themselves” in the company of equal creeps.” I’m keeping both your comments and Mehitable’s comments in a document on my computer, so I can understand them more and regurgitate the points as necessary to some other poor chump (because inevitably, there will always be another chump.) Thank you!
Amazon– That was one of the first counter-intuitive things that a veteran DV advocate explained about batterers– that they often get done in by bigger sharks because they’ll always eventually seek their own level. It was interesting to realize that a lot of the old-timey blaming stereotypes about battering victims– that they’re drawn to abuse or draw abuse to themselves on dysfunctional Voodoo tractor beams, etc.– is actually a common trait of perpetrators and not so much true of victims. For an abuser, finding a chump may be kind of a reprieve or rest stop before the abuser goes back out looking for bigger sharks or Mr./Ms. Goodbar again.
This is fascinating. I have always wondered what the heck is up with prison groupies, especially the ones drawn to men who murder their wives.
You might find this interesting– an article on different categories of “murderers’ accomplices”: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shadow-boxing/202206/rethinking-the-murderers-accomplice
Some “accomplices” obviously fall under the heading of hybristophiliac. The explanation for it is that some accomplices/groupies feel special because the certifiably dangerous person “spares” the accomplice/groupie. Of course the scale is different but how much different is the “cheater’s accomplice” if you really think about it? I suspect it’s all part of the same continuum.
Very astute insights especially about mirroring which I think is an enormous problem in cheating – it’s not just that they lie, many of them tailor the lies to the Chump’s personality or social expectations. Like fitting that piece into the puzzle except they have to cut the edges to make it fit.
It’s easier for people to invent themselves on the spot and tailor a particular idealized disguise to the tastes of a particular audience when they have no baseline character to begin with. Sociopaths have an advantage there.
Student Chump, in addition to the great advice above, I’d recommend that you do some reading (easily accessible online) about BPD and “devaluation.” Assuming your ex does have some BPD, the excruciating humiliation you are feeling right now BELONGS TO A COMPLETELY PREDICTABLE SCRIPT. (Yes, I’ve been on the receiving end of this too, and it hurts like hell.) It’s not in the control of your ex to halt the script–it’s part of her disorder–and it’s not in your control either. The only option, which will indeed release you, is to go No Contact. Besides No Contact, what has helped me in similar situations is a) to keep in good touch with the people in my life who don’t humiliate me, and–this last step has truly worked wonders for me–educate yourself about the disorder. Bit by bit you’ll really take it in that the whirlwind of distress you’re in is an effect of something much bigger than you (namely a personality disorder), and that it has nothing to do with some lack or flaw in yourself.
Just to show you what you’ll find if you browse online, here’s an excerpt from a piece (at https://www.soberish.co/bpd-devaluation/) on “Borderline Devaluation”:
If you’ve decided you can no longer deal with the repeated cycle of idealization and devaluation, you may want to end things for good. It’s easier said than done, though:
Best of luck to you! I hope the rest of your adult life brings you lovely, gentle people and wonderful experiences. The fact that at your young age you reached out for help from CL and CN is a great sign!
By the way, when I said, just above, that your great distress right now is an effect of “a personality disorder,” I was referring to your ex’s personality disorder, not to any disorder of yours. (I hope that was already clear!) One doesn’t have to have any disorder oneself to get swept into the dramas created by another person’s BPD.
Yeah, it sounds like borderline “spoilerism” too (needing to cheat on the chump’s birthday– classic). I know borderline tends to be overapplied to women but one leading DV expert made a studious case for most domestic batterers being borderline. It’s not as gendered a disorder as people believe.
Who knew it takes an advanced degree in abnormal psych to even date? I’m making sure my kids learn about these things when they’re young. I’m very selective about sources so they don’t just end up being inundated with trendy pop psychobabble but I felt it was important that they learn a thing or two because they’d had their hearts broken a few times by FW’s Cluster B family. Now the kids are pretty calm and philosophical when they see cruelty or dysfunction in others. The most important thing was that they learn not to internalize it or take it as a reflection on their self worth.
Hell of a Chump, “spoilerism” is a new term for me, but wow, I’ve been on the receiving end of that too. (It’s almost as if there’s a low hum of ENVY in the person with BPD, which is always waiting for signs that something is going well for you; then at that moment the envy pounces, and the person acts out to “spoil” what you have.) It’s great that your kids have a mother who can help them to get their sea legs, so they have some protection against these all-too-common of mind games.
I always wondered if the Cluster B thing of ruining special occasions (if not with betrayal, then with tantrums or “accidents”) is also a form of “compulsive reenactment.” Someone in their messed up FOOs always ruined special occasions before them so they unconsciously continue the tradition.
Hi there Student Chump! Do not despair. Do not feel like a fool. We’ve all been there. I’m a grown-ass chump and still find it difficult to follow Chump Lady’s advice because it’s really hard to accept that you just can’t have closure with a chronic liar. The best advice I can give to you is to not let her rewrite your past. If you have good memories of time together with her, those are still your memories. You cannot rethink them wondering if she was really loved you then or if she was already with this creepy older guy then. If she wants to deprive HERSELF of what was good, that’s her loss. As for you not having a right to know what she is doing, that’s a load of crap. She doesn’t have to tell you but you are not being entitled by being curious. You may be setting yourself up to be hurt by wanting to know what she’s up to, but it’s also pretty normal after what you went through together to have these moments of weakness. I have to occasionally interact with my ex-husband. We have children together and we are therefore connected through them. It’s hard every time they spend time with him. He will randomly email me telling me how nice it was to spend time with them and offer some commentary on their lives and every time I feel compelled to respond with a reiteration of everything he did to hurt all of us and a challenge to apologize if we wants a cordial relationship. He ignores that response every time. I don’t even expect him to respond but I am still compelled to fire off my apology wish list. So, it’s not like you’re alone in your failure to follow Chump Lady’s advice. For me, the fact that I know she would say “NO CONTACT” prepares me for what he dishes up. We all have our own version of meh. You’ll get to yours.
I can’t help thinking of A. E
Housman’s poem, “When I Was One-and-Twenty.”
Do yourself a favor. Get a piece of paper and write down all the shitty things she said and did to you. Don’t fool yourself with how wonderful everything was, because it clearly wasn’t. Stop pining over what you wanted her to be, and look at her for what she was and is. Keep that paper close at hand, and whenever you start romanticizing her, take it out and read it. I’ll start it for you: she fucked another guy on your birthday.
When I worked in advocacy, that was the exercise we recommended for domestic violence survivors as a way to break through captor bonding/Stockholm syndrome and as a remedy for the systematic “perspecticide” that abusers typically do to victims over time. Survivors would write down every single horrible, ugly, loveless, icky, cringy thing abusers ever did or said. The average length of these essays was about 50 pages. Some survivors would wake up every day and reread their own essays over coffee just to “keep their hands on reality” (the phrase that was coined by survivors) and start the day by “reclaiming” their perspectives.
I thought it was interesting that it seemed to work better than meditation for achieving calm. I mean, what’s “calming” about rereading a fifty page description of abuse and humiliation? But what I think it did was “undo” all the blameshifting that abusers typically barrage their victims with– it exonerated them. Think about how epically ironic that is. Maybe what makes survivors of abuse suffer so much is that they’re made to actually feel “guilty” of causing the horrors they endured. That might be the very essence of the mindfuck that all abusers do.
Wow!!! My journal had 50 pages of “I hate __” about The X and I had D-Day a month later. Mind blowing.
I wonder if that’s a sign that abusers aren’t terribly original if most survivors’ litany of abuses is around the same length.
Wow, its amazing that your Ex GF said the same stuff. I have noticed that the mentally ill all do and say the same things. Like from a script. Cheaters are mentally ill in my opinion. Schizophrenics hear voices, think they are being monitored and believe in conspiracy theories. OCPD are miserly, critical, controlling, obsessed with safety. Cheaters are abusive, have no empathy, are entitled, and get off on manipulating us, using lies, gaslighting. Are they narcs? Are the sociopaths? Are the psychotic? Are they all 3? Who knows? But cheaters are mentally ill. There is something very wrong with them, and they all do and say the same exact things.
You are lucky that you didn’t marry and have kids with her. Next time someone tells you they dont deserve you, BELIEVE THEM!
I think it’s safe to say that this kind of scheming behavior is more akin to criminal disorders than mental disorders. The mentally ill don’t generally have the capacity to manipulate on this level. They might scream at their boss or harass an armed cop– behaviors that can have severe consequences. But when someone can be selective about their abuse and dysfunction in ways that minimize consequences to themselves, that’s on a spectrum of criminality. I guess you could say that, in a sense, they’re “sick” but it’s a different category of abnormal psych.
Hmmmm…. Ok point taken. I guess I am categorizing personality disorders as mental illness. Not sure if NPD, OCPD, psychopathy, sociopaths are considered mentally ill. I just lump them all together under mental illness. And by no means am I saying all people who have mental illness are violent.
Bear in mind that, according to “official,” DSM-approved clinical categorization, all chumps could be considered “disordered” (“histrionic” or borderline, etc.). So could most activists. Historically, DSM committees haven’t been known for their sensitivity to humanist concerns, tend to serve power and be politicized, misogynist, throw marginalized groups under the bus and take whopping sums off drug companies. Consequently, there’s some conflict between clinical categorization and civil rights advocacy. You can read about some of these controversies in the blog “Mad in America” run by Pulitzer winning journalist Robert Whitaker, also the author of several books on the history of corruption in mental health professions.
Anyway, to avoid shooting ourselves in the feet, all victim and survivor groups should probably concern themselves with the politics of it. For instance, despite statistically being *less* likely than average to commit violence to others, the classically mentally disabled are the most frequent victims of police excessive use of force and killings, are dying in the hundreds every year in schools and institutions from restraint and seclusion practices, are sexually assaulted at 5 times the average rate and are used as guinea pigs for dangerous and untested drugs/cocktails and invasive procedures (new forms of lobotomy). Because of this, disability rights groups tend to object to lumping together certain classifications. The most radical would prefer that “asshole disorders” like sociopathy, etc., not even be given DSM classifications but simply be called “shitty people” or “criminals.”
Dear SC! THANK YOU for handing CN A primer on the cheater paradigm for how things are done in their underground world. Creepy users who have a game plan ready to Go. All the right words, actions, lies,..it is the SAME for all of them. Set hook,go fishing. My first wuzband cheater said I was like a fish that he caught on a hook and he could reel me in🎣 or TOSS ME OUT ANYTIME he wanted to. And I quote. These liars KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Like directors of their own life play. They are calculating, enjoy watching you beg, cry and scream. ENJOY IT. It makes them glow all over. Your phone calls 📞, hand wringing tears, they feel good the more you beg. It’s so very sick but it is rather addicting to chumps NOT TO LET GO. To feel their mental distortions and not yours. While I was dripping snot in my therapists office telling him I COULD NOT, could not lock my abusing husband out of our house after 32 years and mult affairs and threats to harm me….My therapist said, ” these creeps always land on their feet. They manipulate EVERYONE and some other Chump will take him in. Then he asked me WHAT ARE YOU FEELING? I told him I felt like I was losing a baby I had cared for and I had that simular craving and bond. He told me I would need alot of therapy but to still ACT and get a lawyer and lock the doors after a protection order. I did it all and NO CONTACT is the antidote to the craving for closure and ” one more chance.” Your jiggalo is a professional at 21. A professional cheater..There is no cure. There is so much more of life for you to live. Trust me, your next gf might not have the high drama but she will have love. Do look into why you are so desperate for a sucky cheater and never look back except for lesson.
Best wishes and PLEASE LISTEN TO CL AND BREAK THAT WITCHES SPELL!!
Oh wait part 2…she might try hoovering you back and crying for you..DONT DO IT! Like CL says, put cotton balls in your ears and tie yourself to the mast. DO NOT GO BACK.ITS QUICK SAND
Hello all, this is Student Chump.
To begin, thank you so much for all your feedback, encouragement, best wishes, critiques, and just general support. It does mean quite a bit to me and is very reassuring to see that more than a few of us have been in this situation before.
I wanted to provide an update on how life’s been in the … 10 (ish) days since writing both parts.
Generally, I’m okay. I’ve calmed down for the most part and feel as though I’m returning to the mental state I was in before finding out about her trips to see the AP. Truthfully my biggest struggle before then was the pain shopping. Her Spotify playlists were on my home screen under the “Jump back in!” section, and wouldn’t disappear even if I had blocked her account. She’d made three playlists then that hurt: “Songs that I WILL throw it back to for him, no questions asked”, “Idk what era this is but I’m loving it”, and “Manic but not pixie manic. <AP’s name> you’re real cute”.
Those playlists haunted my Spotify every time I opened the app for a playlist, drive, or just general vibes. After this recent encounter with her though I managed to stay off it long enough to have them disappear. Honestly, it’s hard resisting the urge sometimes, but I have been good about sticking to a true no-contact this time.
Finding out and contacting her definitely re-opened the trauma from the first morning she confessed. The mind movies were back, this time worse because I knew she’d seen him far more, and I’d seen the Airrbnbs they stayed at. I think I also have deeper issues relating to my childhood. Stuff I was aware of and had been working to fix, yet they still blew up over this whole situation.
Gradually though they’re fading. As I said, I’m returning to before. I keep busy enough working a full-time internship, and part-time job, keeping up with classes at school, and trying to maintain a decent social life. I was quite consistent in life during my relationship, this whole situation knocked me out of my flow frankly. Keeping to the gym has been a bit more of a struggle, but I know I’ll be back soon.
Definitely, many lessons learned. I made a vow that I wouldn’t ever let someone treat me like that again. But I admit it still hurts at times. While I recognize that I’m young and hugely inexperienced, that relationship was real to me. It meant quite a bit. I poured a lot of my time, energy, and effort into actively learning how to love my ex better because truthfully it was a great satisfaction to me. I loved her and loved who I was in that relationship. It can be difficult to come to terms with the fact that she treated me so horribly, betrayed me, lied to me so often, came up with so many excuses, and ultimately left. I sometimes find myself re-living the moments when we were really good – like we wouldn’t ever be apart – and think “We had no idea then that this is how our story would end”. Such is life I guess.
I am grateful for the responses from all of you, and thank you CL for your insight as well :). I’m also grateful for the lessons and experiences.. I don’t feel good about a relationship right now, and there are times I doubt I’ll be as connected to someone else, but I know logically that it’ll come with time.
I hope you’re all well, and thank you again!
Student Chump
SC – You’re still in early days and the end of this relationship will take time to process. At least now you can focus on all the things you CAN control which are your own behaviors. Continuing your studies and getting to the gym are a great start.
I am concerned that “virtual” affection and commitment through social media complicates all this. Chumps learn to pay attention to actions rather than words. I’m not sure posts or playlists count as either.
When I was nineteen years old, I was on a date with an older guy. Not far into the evening, I realized he was probably married. I was angry and told him to take me home. He did.
Human brains are not mature at twenty one, but twenty one is plenty old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.
You can be sure someone knows what they’re doing is wrong if they are lying about it.
Intimacy requires honesty. People who lie are a poor choice for a life partner, and not capable of intimacy.
My D-day was only a couple of months ago with someone I thought was sincere and who despite having an affair, was still a good person.
She left me for her affair partner, citing that she needed to move on with her life. Worry about yourself because the moment they betrayed you or fooled around, was the moment they showed who they really are.