Stupid Sh*t the Reconciliation Industrial Complex Says
I can’t even with this latest bit of quackery from the Guardian on “how to survive an affair.”
What should the betrayed partner do?
Often, the discovery of an affair creates an unequal dynamic – one partner becomes crushed with guilt and accepts their pariah status,
Oh, who slipped in that righteous Angela Bassett gif? That was me trying to wrest the narrative back from this blameshifting RIC bullshit.
You’re too JUDGY, chumps!
Also… it’s your fault.
“The betrayed partner will usually have to accept that they had a part in co-creating a betrayal,” says relationship counsellor and author Neil Wilkie. “My experience is that a betrayal never comes out of a clear blue sky. It usually happens because there was something lacking in a relationship. But if the betrayed partner says, ‘It’s all your fault, I had nothing to do with it,’ then the relationship can never recover.”
(I added the link so you can check out his groovy sweater vest. And full array of life-coach quackery services.)
I thought this was supposed to be a Friday Challenge, Tracy?
Oh yes. I’d like to know what bit of RIC fuckery tangled your brain.
Was it the ASSUMPTION that every cheater is contrite?
Or qualified mental health professionals intoning that you’re responsible for another’s double life that you were unaware of?
Or that what you really need after a full STD panel screening is more FUN?
In your RIC experience, what was the Stupid Shit said, and when did you realize it was total nonsense?
All I have today:
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I am almost through year one of ‘reconciliation’ but i am not really reconciling. I am just here, seeing what he will do.
no pick me dance. He went no contact immediately.
post-nup with generous terms and infidelity clauses.
full disclosure and passed lie detector test (for whatever that is worth)
no real evidence of any other infidelity, etc.
in counseling and also in counseling with adult child
Still, it is fairly evident that he is a liar, selfish and a narcissist.
Narcissists have no problem passing a lie detector test.
“… but i am not really reconciling. I am just here, seeing what he will do.”
Janey, you should not be waiting to see what this fuckwit will do. What you should be doing is lining up your ducks, and deciding what you will do.
By waiting, all you’re doing is giving this fucker a chance to fuck you over big time. He’s demonstrated he doesn’t give a fuck about you already, don’t give him a chance to get his ducks in a row, to your detriment.
The most important person here is you.
I’m confused about ‘post nup’, and ‘infedelity clauses’ – WTF?? Also all this shite about ‘full disclosure’ and lie detector tests??!! Either this fuckwad has cheated on you, or he hasn’t. Which is it?
The ‘counselling’ you speak of; does this counsellor understand that cheating is abuse?
Your post is very strange to me, “no very real evidence of any other infidelity” What the fuck does that even mean? I really want to be sympathetic/empathetic, but I just don’t understand what you’re saying.
Staying married out of morbid curiosity?
“I’m confused about ‘post nup’, and ‘infedelity clauses’ –”
I am too because of course they will lie and say they didn’t do it. Then you are stuck with spending whatever assets you have to prove it.
If it were a post nup that said no matter the reason for D and even if D wants the D then Chump gets this amount. Even then, the likely hood of chump prevailing is low.
Plus they will likely make sure there is nothing to get by the time it happens.
For instance lets say I got a post nup from my ex that I got 50 thousand dollars. Fucker went on after our D to gamble and lose everything he had. He had to file bankruptcy. He literally gambled every thing away. I mean yay for whore; but if I had stayed with the sucker I would have been screwed. She had nothing to lose, but he likely would have gambled away my retirement away too.
People of poor character don’t heed legal directives, such as contracts or restraining orders. ????♀️
So true. “you are not the boss of me” is their mantra.
“People of poor character don’t heed legal directives, such as contracts or restraining orders.”
““you are not the boss of me” is their mantra.”
Tell me about it.
I understand that I am living with a fckwit. He’s not a unicorn. He really has no empathy and feelings. I am shocked (as many of us are) that I thought they were there. I would say he is as close to a unicorn as one can be but no, I don’t believe in unicorns. I am getting better/stronger. I think it just takes longer for some of us to get there, perhaps bc we are not anything like them.
My counselor is a former betrayed person and works solely in this area. She sees him as trying/remorseful but is not encouraging me to stay and working with me on building my own identity, putting myself first, etc. I am educated but too kind. That’s all.
Janey. Many of of us were ‘too kind’. And we tried. And eventually we threw in the towel when we had had enough. It finally comes down to ‘is this acceptable to you?’ CL says this all of the time. But many of us waited and waited until it was no longer acceptable before we gave heed to her sound counsel. We gave it our all and it appears that so are you. But please heed the advice. Get YOUR ducks in order. We’ve been where you are now and hindsight tells us that you’re wasting your time. If we could turn back time we would have thrown in that towel sooner. However, because I waited, I know that I gave it my all and I will never doubt that I did everything in my power to save my marriage. Hindsight tells me that my efforts were wasted. But would I have known that had I not given it every chance? Who knows? Maybe I would have always wished I just gave him ‘one more chance’ but bailed before I knew my efforts would have only been wasted. Now I KNOW, without a shadow of a doubt, that I did the right thing by saying ‘enough is enough’. But I know that NOW — 7 years later. I should have tossed that fucker to the curb years previously. But that’s what maturity does. Maturity and time. You’re still smoking the hopium pipe (even though you don’t realize you’re taking tokes.) I’m 61. I KNOW I should have tossed that ass to the curb years earlier. But in my early 50s? I was still very confused. I guess for me I needed to give it every chance possible. In my 60s I KNOW I should have gotten rid of that asshole the first time I caught wind of his fuckery. Good luck to you in figuring it out, but in the meantime, get those ducks in order.
Agreed. I did a power pick me dance for 9 months, and in the end it didn’t change a thing. I signed off on our divorce settlement a week ago, she’s out of here, and I feel a little better every day with such a toxic influence removed from my environment.
AmazonChump, very nearly 62 here and what you say is so, so true. Thank you.
Janey, the ex accused me of being ‘too altruistic’ (the pompous oaf was never going to use a word as simple as ‘kind’ ????). The thing is, these people exploit the kindness of chumps. They know that chumps are kind and they use that wonderful, caring, loving character trait to their own advantage. The ex laughed while he was doing so. He smiled sardonically while he did so. It turned him on. You’ll do what you must do when you’re ready. Don’t let your kindness kill you while you wait.
“The ex laughed while he was doing so. He smiled sardonically while he did so. It turned him on.”
Oh, God, yes.
Before I knew for certain, fuckwit had stayed the night at the rat faced whore’s place, telling me his van had broken down, and rat faced whore had” very kindly offered me her sofa”.
Chumpy me believed this, and I told him I was so glad he had a friend who could put him up. ????????
Apparently rat faced whore had said to him if it was her, she would have immediately been suspicious, and hired a private detective.
I’ll never forget how he sat across from me, and with a big smirk, said, “I told her, chumpnomore6 trusts me”.
Duper’s delight.
Sadly she is saying all the “BS boundaries and actions” that are used by the Reconciliation Complex to keep us Chumps tied to the cheater.
Janey I have to ask why? If he’s still a lying selfish narcissist you know he’ll not change even with all that penitence. And obv this relationship is not working for you.
The only reason we hang on for so long (I hung on for 10 months and through 6 d-days) is because we don’t want the agony of ending it. Yes it hurts like a motherfucker but your living in a holding patter right now. Which is not really living. You do move on from the pain. And life is so much better
And he has emotionally immature communication skills. Almost no connection to emotions.
He sounds like my ex. A person like this just can’t do relationships.
Janey, I admire your resolve to give it ago— a year ago I did the nuclear pick me dance and lost and I regretted losing and believed I would have made it work with the first ever unicorn. Time and distance, while I am only really on late Wednesday, I understand that she will always be a freak, liar who I could never trust again, but I’m a chump and I would’ve still tried had I not “lost”, I mean “ gained a life “ :). I wish you the best.
I fought the fight of my life for 13 months in my marriage before he ultimately left to be with the OW anyways. A year later, I land in the office of a therapist identifying me with symptoms of PTS. Two years of almost weekly therapy with a person trained in trauma to unpack the emotional and mental devastation my pick-me dance caused to my brain because of the gaslighting of a lying and cheating man who took advantage of my love and naivite. But, this was just one layer of understanding a lot more about different traumas I grew up with that hindered my capacity to judge this man and my situation more clearly when it arose in my life.
Four years later, I understand that what occurred was never my fault. I did not drive my husband to cheat. Though I was not a perfect wife, I was not a horrible person who deserved any of this. I better understand the red flags that were there early on but didn’t recognize because they were different flags than what my alcoholic/abusive father presented growing up. I am no longer bound to faulty messaging from my Church, who I thought would want me to stay and make it work (but later learned that if I had talked to my priest earlier, he would have advised me to protect myself and the kids immediately – it was family religious pressure that influenced me).
Now I find myself standing strong in the face of a new “toxic” force. The pressure that I should “forgive” my ex after all this time. That him and his AP are just flawed human beings who made a big mistake. Time has passed and that I should let things go because then I’m staying stuck.
Ummm…I’m not stuck at all. My unwillingness to forget what my ex and his accomplice did is not a reflection of having not healed, it’s a reminder of the need to protect myself from those who have done me harm and who have demonstrated no real contrition (the fact that they are still together and he still denies it was even an affair is case in point). You need to own up to what you did and take responsibility to actually be sorry. That hasn’t been done, so no forgiveness has been sought and so none is needed to be given.
I have let this go from paralyzing me in my daily life, from allowing it to put me down or doubt myself. I have risen from this stronger in myself, my values and convictions, and smarter about how people work in the world. I know who and what they are, and I will not hold any illusions. They are not trustworthy people. They do not share my values. They are not my friends.
At all times, I aim to be unfailingly polite to my ex-husband. Engage in no conversation outside of matters regarding our kids. Always keep a slight smile on my face. Hold my head high. I ensure the kids have a birthday, Xmas and Father’s Day gift for him every year. Always make sure to wish him a happy birthday or Father’s Day, or a merry Christmas. It’s the respect that I would accord to any stranger on the street in honour of their inherit dignity. But, he gets nothing more from me than that.
RIC is sadly lacking in sound psychology. It lacks awareness of how insidious abuse can be and how they are setting up the victims to be further victimized by their perpetrators. I’m not against the idea that there can be a possibility of reconciliation for some (not in my case though), but there is a plethora of steps that needs to be taken before calling on a victim to become even more vulnerable to the ministrations of their perpetrator. And, it all rests solely on dealing with the perpetrator individually (to take responsibility) and the victim (to heal from the trauma without responsibilities to the perpetrator) separately. All of this is lacking and so it’s all messed up and dangerous.
I love how you still show your children how to be the bigger person, and provide him gifts during the holidays!
“Though I was not a perfect wife, I was not a horrible person who deserved any of this.”
I am so sad whenever I see a betrayed spouse feeling the need to justify her/himself with the “neither perfect now awful” line. Cheaters do make us feel awful by projection and blameshiffting, don’t they?
From what you describe of your behaviour toward your XH I can only imagine OptionNoMore as a very nice and considerate person (maybe a little too nice to bad people), and therefore a splendid partner in your marriage (I bet you were). You know who is awful? Your XH.
Who in this world can honestly claim to be the perfect anything? Was “to be perfect” in any of your wedding vows? Was your XH perfect by any standard? Is perfection the only way to avoid being abused, disrespected and cheated on? And what is perfection after all when the goal posts are moving all the time? Oh, and as if the pile of abuse they hurdle at us didn’t hinder our “perfection” in the least.
I am now scared of people who seem to expect perfection from others (from their coworkers, from their parents, from their partners… from their kids, for god’s sake!). It takes lots of unearned entitlement and a childish attitude toward life to fell that you deserve nothing short of perfect. This is bratty behaviour at its worst.
No one deserves the ultimate betrayal of infidelity, even the shittiest person on the face of earth. More so in a time when you can just be honest and end a relationship that is not working for you.
The thing is, the triangle (or icosahedron, as Tracy says) works *perfectly* for these thrill-seeking assholes. The relationship *alone* is not perfect but it fits right in as an hypotenuse (Tracy again), and the triangle crumbles once it is removed. Hence the pick-me dancing and hoovering. Not to mention how useful we chumps are (wife/husband appliances, uncertified therapists, ATM machines, sex machines, babysitters, cleaners, handyman, personal secretaries, grammar correctors, spell checkers, the list goes on). We are human swiss knifes; APs are just for entertainment purposes.
You would have to be several people at the same time, with many, many faces (with sometimes diametrically opposed physical and psychological traits) to be the “perfect” polyhedron they seem to be seeking to make them happy.
They don’t want people, they want toys.
“I have let this go from paralyzing me in my daily life, from allowing it to put me down or doubt myself.”
I’m still stuck with this right now, paralyzed, put down and full of self-doubt. Still take the most unreasonable request from my XW as on order and a mission to be accomplished before I can get a modicum of peace of mind – knowing fully well that she is most probably lying about her intentions and just playing with me. It is my dysfunctional way to appease my guilt and atone for not have been “the perfect husband (TM)”, you see? Rationally and objectively I was a pretty decent hubby, but I was long trained to see myself as somewhat lacking, always missing a spot. You’re right, emotional abuse is insidious, this shit internalizes as hell, and it is very hard to get rid of it.
Sorry for rambling on your post, OptionNoMore. It was meant to be just a short comment, but I am dealing with these unreallistic expectations of perfection and forgiveness right now and it gets me all over the place.
Hope you are feeling better from all the tough stuff you’ve been through. Cheers!
Dear Chumpalina,
I am so happy to have been of some help for you! Thank you very much for letting me know of this.
I hope this late reply somehow reaches you.
Yes, people are cruel. Or I would rather say they are clueless. No one who hasn’t travel the chump road does really get it: the desvastation, the self-doubt, the loss of self-worth, the letting go of life long expectations, the undue guilt for another person’s bad choices, the sickness onto death some of us experience. It is a dark night of the soul that only us, unfortunate initiates, can understand. I have never been really aware of the fallout of marital betrayal till it wrecked my home and I must confess I wasn’t that empathetic to people who suffered through it (my own mother for instance, mind you!).
“Trying to be perfect to avoid abuse, disrespect and cheating was one exhausting and painful way to live.”
Yes, indeed, I feel you. That’s exactly how I’ve been living for the last two decades and I do feel exhausted too, even now that I am divorced. I guess it takes time to get our energy levels back to normal, hold on!
I couldn’t infer from your post if you’re currently in close contact with your cheater, but in my experience (I just had one sad episode today), this is what keeps us exhausted and in pain. If you can manage to go no contact with the piece of shit that is making you miserable, then please go for it. I unfortunately cannot, grey rock is the best I can do and I fall off the wagon from time to time (just today I bit a bait, hook line and sinker).
I am sorry to have made you cry, I wish you to be strong now, know your worth, quit apologizing and justifying yourself altogether and go back to smiling some day soon (I am almost there; faking till I make it).
No one is perfect, but only a good person could entertain the thought of assuming part of the blame for her partner’s lack of character, so you look formidable to me.
I hope you keep posting, would love to read more from you and how things are going. For me its being truly therapeutic to put my thoughts and feelings out there to these amazing people who comprises Chump Nation.
Wish you the best non-perfect life you can live. (((Hughs)))
BrazilianChump,
What you wrote helped my heart so much. I realize I’ve been carrying around a lot of shame because after all, I wasn’t a “perfect wife”. And that searing accusation from others that because I wasn’t a perfect wife, I couldn’t really blame my husband for his terrible betrayal. No one was perfect after all so we must be both equally guilty/responsible. That’s such a cruel thing to believe and tell people.
I am right there in the place of working through expectations and forgiveness. While I am in this spot I was so helped hearing you ask that question, “ Is perfection the only way to avoid being abused, disrespected and cheated on?“. I have read your post over a few times and that part makes me cry every time. Trying to be perfect to avoid abuse, disrespect and cheating was one exhausting and painful way to live.
Thanks for your post.
Thank you, ISawTheLight, I hope it does get easier as you say.
Same here: severe anxiety bouts eveytime I have to stand for myself and not accomodate her. Mild anxiety whenever I have to interact with her, which is at least twice a week during hostage exchanges. Those days are ruined for me.
Last thursday was my oldest son’s birthday and I spent some hours at her apartment. Leaving was like getting out of a toxic cloud. I feel nauseated by her presence and her voice. Even worse that the place itself ellicit so many traumatic memories.
I used to start physically shaking and my heart would race when I said “no” to my ex, or even decided not to reply to one of his demands.
I promise – it gets easier. It’s a skill and you practice it.
Amen ????????
Very well said;your fourth paragraph resonates strongly. ????????????????????????????????
Once you get more time & distance, you will realize that by “losing”, you ultimately ended up winning. Again, that concept of addition by subtraction.
One year is not enough time. It took me several.
same. this triggers me so much.
Same. Makes me furious. Fuck these relationship counsellors who seem to totally miss a whole chapter in DSM 5 about narcissists.
So glad I cancelled my Guardian subscription. Fuckers.
I was really disappointed they didn’t have a comments section. I would have gone to town on idiot counsellor.
The ‘Grauniad’ very seldom has a comments facility. They can’t cope with anyone who rationally disagrees with their pap propaganda. ????
Well welcome to triggered Friday. Man where do I start.
He was asked with much sympathy during our session how he was coping with the breakup with affair partner.
Therapist advised me not show any anger as it would drive him away.
Was asked how I thought I contributed to him having an affair.
So found out later that he had never was and had no intentions of being faithful. 30 years married at that point.
I notice here another example of how the betrayed must project a certain “correct” behavior that The Counselor says will keep him from being driven away.
Right?!?
Like. Is it not Therapy 101 that we are responsible for managing our own emotions and reactions to others’ behavior, we aren’t responsible for others’ emotions and behavior? It certainly was the cornerstone of my personal therapy.
(I would say that, but for the 4 therapists who failed to be explicit with me about what dynamics they were seeing between us, the RIC got to me more by being the soup I was swimming in: my church preaching forgiveness but not how to hold boundaries (and also being so steeped in traditional patriarchy that it fosters a belief in many of our men that they are inherently entitled to All The Things and among our women that we are not); my belief that marriage would be a challenge but nothing would be insurmountable if we didn’t try (but not any understanding of what to do if there wasn’t a “we” who was doing the trying),; a general lack in my formal or informal education about dealing with NPD/NPDesque people; a lack of cultural narrative around the fact that divorce is NOT the worst thing that will happen to children (that living with a supremely unhappy mom is worse); and a personal belief that my worth as a person would be diminished if I were not a full-time mom. In fact, I’m forever grateful to my therapist that she managed to cut through the crap and heal my pain.)
As IF they break up with the affair partner.
I’ll bet you wish you had the money back, that you paid that therapist! What a biased hack. Chumps should get all the sympathy, for how much we were lied to, but at least we get free with integrity.
Before I finally chose to divorce I tried reconciliation. Mine (MC) told me, in front of cheater, that it’s unreasonable for me to expect cheater to go cold turkey with his AP, that for a short time, as long as we set clear boundaries around it, he should be allowed to break away from AP at his own pace because I shouldn’t devalue his love. When I said my clear boundary was to go NC immediately with AP I was laughed at like a child telling a joke. Of course cheater took that hall pass and had multiple “last time farewell fucks” that spanned 19 months.
The therapist actually laughed at you? What a twisted freak!
forgot to add Spoonriver that I was also told in that same session not show any anger while that was happening for the same reason, it would cause distance. I was so hurt by that session and cheater was so damn delighted.
” I shouldn’t devalue his love. ”
Right? These fuckers can devalue us and our love; but god forbit we devalue theirs.
The Beyond Betrayed group at our church taught that we shouldn’t make any decisions in the first year. To me, this implied that my anger and hurt were temporary, and I would/should get over them.
Your church had an entire group for betrayed spouses? I have so many questions. Was it a very large church or did they have a disproportionate amount of cheating?
IF churches really have support groups for the betrayed, they’re ahead of most communities who don’t want to talk about it. Maybe certain denominations are so opposed to divorce they decided to tackle the cheating head on. I wish I could have found secular support.
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Many churches do, the counseling class I went through was via a Baptist Church. It was not about infidelity, but moving on after D.
But, there is such a need for victims of betrayal.
It’s much more common than people realize. Religious men/women are just as likely to cheat to on their partner. I think sometimes more so because of the sexual repression that’s encouraged as they’re being raised. Douse that with a little shame and guilt and voila! Perfect conditions for secret sexual basement. ????????
Oh, definitely, I don’t think church attendees are any different than the general population. I was just surprised there was enough demand for a whole group. I think at my parents’ church they offer counseling, but they don’t see divorce as a bad idea in these situations either.
I agree, a church is after all a hospital for sinners, not a sanctuary for saints. At least that is how I was raised.
However, also there are just as many non cheater in the church population as the general.
When I went through my ordeal there were two more women going through a D. One about my age (40) whose husband had left her. She said there was not another woman, but I wonder now if she was just not telling,(hoping to reconcile) or didn’t know. He was still coming to see her a lot and they were still intimate. She said he just didn’t want to be married, but didn’t want another woman.
The other lady was about 70ish. Quite attractive and in good health. She said she was constantly praying for her husband to come back. I have thought of them through the years and wish we had someone at that time to guide us in a talk group. But, again this was many years ago, before internet and as easy of communication as we have now.
While I think they can have good intentions about the wait for a year, it is very dangerous to do for most folks.
A cheating spouse can run up tons of debt, steal more money etc in that time. At the very least there should be a legal separation which protects the betrayed financially. I know some states don’t have what is called “legal separation” but all of them that I have researched have a process to protect finances, they just call it something different.
Yeah, the Fuckwits must looooove that “give it one year” shit: gives them plenty of time to take things WAY deep underground, REALLY screw up and/or sabotage the finances, and get THEIR ducks in a row.
Exactly what I was thinking. One entire year to squirrel away marital assets and find the best lawyer.
I think the first thing to do is get a bulldog for an attorney and let them handle it. Find a fair judge if at all possible. Get what you are entitled and then WPP. ????
To wait at least one year prior to make any decision was a request coming straight from my cheater’s lying mouth, not a therapist.
You’re right on the money about what cheaters would be up to should this ceasefire be granted.
Have I waited, me and my kids would be even more screwed up financially than we already are. Fuckwit blew up our finances in the previous months with her funny business. I was left to clean after the chaos.
I also was told to not make any decisions, for 6 months.
Also, fuckwit’s depression needed to be addressed before we could really tackle the affair.
When someone tells you or implies things like”get over it ” they are really telling you to take the shit end of the stick and be glad you were offered the stick
This is when you should say, “Fuck you,”. And leave.
I wish these shitheads could witness what I did. They would NEVER tell another Chump to get over it. How about the kids? How about them falling apart? Are they suppose to get over being abandoned?
I stayed in my churches betrayal group to make sure there was a voice of sanity there. As a result of me staying, repeating the healthy, non BS truth until I was blue in the face, my work paid off. Even though the leader is a co-dependence junky, almost every other woman in the group was defending why it WASN’T their fault and started refusing to take responsibility for his secret double life.
I can’t even begin to say how proud I was listening to them argue with the group leader.
^_^
You are a hero.
I love this. So. Much.
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Mutiny ! I love it ????????????????????????????????
Amen
That I needed to wait a year to make any big decisions. Worst advice I’ve ever been given.
That and “don’t tell anyone they won’t understand”. Which really equates to “don’t tell the people who truly love you and care about you because they might hit you upside the head with the 2×4 of reality and you’ll exit this profitable blame-sharing thing I’ve been orchestrating”.
Sweater vest. Of course.
Yes, the advice really should be proceed immediately to divorce. Divorce takes a while, you can adjust if you feel the need.
I always think betrayed should shop around before they recommit to an adulterer. I’ve never met a betrayed spouse yet who didn’t marry beneath them. Lots of fish still in that sea.
A betrayed spouse should focus on self-care and deal as best they can with the hurt, anger, shock, pain, ect….not ” shop around ” for a replacement….Gosh, that never crossed my mind
The one and only time Cheating Bastard Ex and I went to a marriage counselor was shortly after his arrest for solicitation of prostitution back in 1998.
About three or four questions in, the therapist turned to me and asked, “So, are you over the prostitution thing yet?”
I picked my jaw up off the floor and walked out.
CBX moved out shortly after and I filed for divorce.
In my case, the RIC that sucked me back into the marriage the following year was all those psuedo professionals… from a lay minister to counselor with zero training or education into sexual deviant behaviors and betrayal trauma … dive bombing me with guilt that removing my children’s father from the home would cause irreversible and irreparable damage to them.
No and no! Letting him back in our lives was the worst possible decision with the worst possible outcome.
I’ve watched my share of Affair Recovery videos (still can’t seem to find any announcement about Sam and Samantha divorcing).
There’s a woman who is a coach who tells her story about staying, and she said after she realized her husband was really married to masturbating to pornography, she wanted to leave. But she had two sons, and she knew that divorcing their father would leave them with “a father wound.” So she resigned herself to a terrible marriage she didn’t want to save her sons.
It was remarkable how she and AR thrust so much responsibility on the spouse who has been violated.
If you invest all your time to affair partners, pornography, drugs/drink, etc. YOU’RE the one responsible for the father wound. If you’re a shitty dad, it’s not mom’s fault.
Sorry not sorry.
I found a youtube where Sam told about their divorce. If I remember later I’ll try to post it here.
Early on I found Affair Recovery and have been watching videos for 9 years now. Overall I like them. X hated Sam so he had a reason to not cooperate in this step of reconciling.
However, I tried all I could except a few things including: 1) I wasn’t going to live 100% in marriage while he had a girlfriend, and 2) I guess I wasn’t willing to give up my whole life and soul. I sure gave up many friends during my pick me dancing (at the time it was standing for my marriage – thanks Tracy), I gave up a dream, I gave time, I gave furniture and a household because I moved out and started over, I’ve given up 2 grandkids that I got close to because I babysat them every weekend for 4 years, I gave up a lot of self respect.
Being off the fence now for 4 months because I filed for divorce and divorced 30 days now, I already feel the weight of it all off my shoulders.
Hindsight tells me that RIC if you must but put a short leash on it or you’ll lose too much.
RossLucy465,
Yes to that!! They used Sam and Samantha as a picture perfect example couple of how successful RIC is on their platform. Sam was the front and center UNICORN. I was pushed to watch those videos and learn from that couple as to how to heal my marriage. My husband was an out of control sex addict and alcoholic but he was in Sex addicts anonymous program with a fellow sex addict accountability partner. That group hosted in the church and pushed RIC line on me.
When I watched Sam who I thought paid too much attention to his well sculpted appearance, I felt maybe I judged my husband’s addiction too harshly and he just needed help through it.
Well Sam was a sex addict liar and manipulator predator who loved attention. And Sam still is a sex addict liar manipulator predator who loves attention. The UNICORN Sam went up in smoke as all fairy tales do. No wonder that RIC doesn’t utter a peep about it.
The RIC complex is just the vultures who are opportunistic. Money spins the wheel and we are victimized twice. So much time and money on sex addict counselors.
100% agree when they invest all their time…….somewhere else especially with porn, affairs, etc. they are the ones that caused them not to be present for the kids. NOT the betrayed spouse. Where was the suggestion that the betrayed spouse needed to model good choices for the kids. Not there, of course. Blame the betrayed when things blow up.
It was quite sad when my daughter admitted that when she heard FW moved out, (he didn’t say goodbye) she didn’t really feel anything, at least not what you’d expect. I suggested it might be a delayed reaction but she said she usually just thought about the gifts he’d bring her, not about him. She’d hacked all his devices and knew all about the affair at that point and was sort of casual when she said this. She said he never really bonded with her even if he’d occasionally play two-player video games. She also mentioned that she hadn’t been able stand it when he talked in a baby voice to her since she was 12.
Here it is
https://youtu.be/vH6xixCB_WA
And of course it is an amicable divorce and of course it is not betrayal or infidelity related. BS!
Anne, thank you for this link. I had never heard of Sam (or Samantha) before this and I watched part of his video on their divorce. Part was all I could take. What a load of horsesh** he speaks. Does he believe any of this or is it a money-making industry?
I hate to in any way put anything on his wife the betrayed. However I do wonder if the reason she stayed so long was to rebuild their finances, then leave in a better financial situation.
They had lost pretty much everything according to my understanding. Not that I blame her for that, but she did participate in the rebuilding by going along with the bullshit. Yet, I can’t think ill of her because she was devastated I am sure.
I do find myself wondering about the full story. By that I mean did they sit down and plan it, or did it just evolve etc.
What IS amicable divorce from abusive people?
Is it to ensure the betrayed spouse does not utilize the full extent of the law when creating a parenting plan or MSA?
There is nothing amicable about how the spouse abuses the partner and the family.
LOL LOL.
I think “unicorn” just means the narc has a longer timetable for chumps to “just get over it.” Sam’s clock ran out and he probably started spewing affair era bs and deflections.
Though I don’t really think the classic FW goal is for chumps to get over it, just shut up about it. The point of affairs for FWs seems to be pulling a kind of coup to become and remain the center of attention forever. For chumps, it’s a bit like having a funnel web spider in the room that you’re not allowed to swat, shriek at or jump on a chair. Once the chump has seen FW’s fangs and hairy legs and spent a few nights in the hospital taking anti-venem with various appendages blown up to the size of a Christmas ham, chumps just can’t take their nervous, sleep-deprived eyes off FWs. Yay for FWs.
I went to the link and I looked everywhere for the comments and link to post a comment and from my end looks like they have disabled comments. Of course when Unicorns disappear right before your eyes you just keep your opinions to yourself!
I noticed that. Charlatans.
My FW paid for a course from AR. Also has done Christian counseling in the past. Whatever – I’m long gone, Tuesday, meh, NC so if he never cheats again good for him.
I used to watch Affair Recovery with my ex when I was doing the pick me dance ????????♀️
What was I thinking?Recovering from his 30 years of living a double life?
Anyway, but accident my YouTube channel suggested the video where Sam sort of BTW announces that he and Samantha are divorcing. Can’t find it right now but it was this fall if you want to look for it.
Yeah I used to be hooked of AR videos. I nearly signed up for their expensive course. Thank god reason prevailed on that one.
I don’t remember a lot of videos that blamed the chump but I do remember a powerful video with a proper trauma counsellor who describe in detail what we were going through emotionally and on a primal scale. I think she also linked it to PTSD. it was absolutely wonderful.
???? My kids talk about Daddy issues all the time. And the blame goes right to where it should. I may not be a great mom every second of every day, but at least they see and feel my effort. (Effort into schmoopie gets one very little…)
Checked out his web site. Why do men of a certain age thinks it looks good to have a stubble beard. They look suspect.
I will BET that Sam shaves his pubes though. Based on past comments here. bahahahaha
It’s like contouring makeup for men to create the illussion of solid jawline and strong (and single) chin. It’s effective so when lantern-jawed men do it it’s overkill and makes them look like this:
https://images.app.goo.gl/itotSfeE8ucxwbLY7
????????????
One week it was ” Mr Nutbag, your actions were the main catalyst for the betrayal ” and I thought “hmmm, so if I was the perpetrator then why the label betrayal?” Wouldn’t it be more of a term Meaning justification?.then next week “you Mr Nutbag need to take a stronger less conciliatory stand to wake her up from her behavior!” I asked her to see her counselor certification
????
During one of several false reconciliations, we saw marriage counselors–a husband and wife team. In their “radical authenticity” they proclaimed during a session, “3 out of 4 people in this room have cheated,” revealing that their own marriage was the result of cheating on previous spouses. They actually weren’t pushing too hard for reconciliation (my ex made it clear how worthless he thought I was) but they certainly weren’t holding anyone accountable or giving my feelings any space. I never felt more isolated.
Wow.
It sounded like they were proud to be cheaters and saying to FW, “Welcome to the club! We are here to help you keep your chump in line, buddy!”
I would have quit them after one session. I don’t think admitted FWs are the best source of marital advice.
They did start (when we were initially trying for reconciliation) by telling me I need to focus on making him feel good so he wants to come back. To stop nagging. To put on the perfume I wear when we make love! I was raising three little kids by myself (one a nursling) and it was on me to be sexier and show no feelings so he could feel good.
Dear lord. I hope you dropped them like a sack of potatoes after they spewed that garbage.
Elkay,
That there is the absolute BS of what happens after the affair. The betrayed is encouraged to do something (and we want to) that is all about twisting ourselves into a pretzel while we dance the “Pick Me” I smell so good dance.
What isn’t put out there is the details we need to retain our self-respect. Even if we are dancing.
Add the chart “Cycle of Abuse” and it’s all there.
Years ago I got away from a man who slapped me across the face. I left that second. Swore I’d never put up with that. Same with an affair. Except, this time I did put up with it. I regret making “marriage” big enough to tolerate what I knew would never be acceptable to me.
I’m sorry you dealt with that! It must be part of the cheater manual. I had four under 6 and the youngest needed constant care, feeding tube and at least 5 appointments a week. This all after long deployments and hospital stays with no family nearby. FW wondered why we were struggling? The spark disappeared? Maybe he was just sparking off with whores instead.
????????
So sorry you’ve been through that!
That’s insulting and I’m sorry. My FW started cheating on me when my first two were little. I guess I wasn’t paying enough attention or whatever. Then ramped it up when I had another couple because I didn’t seem as into it as I used to…
O.M.G. Retch.
The worst for me is and always will be: He may be a bad husband but be a great father.
Umm, how? Why? When?…
No to the nope!
We help show our kids how to be by who we are. So bad spouse = bad parent. Sorry, not sorry.
A good father doesn’t betray or break up his family.
A good father doesn’t put the health of his children’s mother at risk.
A good father doesn’t steal family time or money to fund affairs.
A good father doesn’t emotionally or physically abandon his family.
It’s breathtaking, the entitlement in that statement you were given. So your ex can fuck around but still deserves a family and a best dad of the year title? Hell no.
????????????????????????????
A good father doesn’t act entitled to the home and woman he abandoned. And doesn’t let himself into her house by asking a kindergartner for the garage code.
A good father doesn’t start round after round of nonsense litigation post divorce.
A good father follows his courts orders, you know, the ones he signed himself under the guidance of his own capable attorneys.
A good father appreciates all the free child care his ex mother in law provides and reimburses her the $19.50 he owes her for one of the kid’s prescriptions even if he never actually thanks her.
Jeez I could go on and on.
This ????????????????????????????????????????
Also a good parent models better behavior for their children, does not live a double life or abuse the other parent. A good parent teaches their children to respect the other parent, affairs, porn, prostitutes, LYING, betrayal does not model good parenting. If the parent decides to leave the relationship, doing so honestly by leaving before cheating is preferable to betrayal by all the things FWs do. A good parent does not bring embarrassment to their children by screwing around and the whole town talking about their children’s father or mother and their activities. I see these activities as abusing not only the spouse but emotionally abusing their children. If a spouse wants to screw around, be an adult and get out of the marriage honestly first and better yet decide before marriage whether you want to be a loyal spouse, etc. or whether you want multiple partners.
Lee Chump – you articulate it exactly.
When news of my ex’s affair got out to the school community, my daughter had a ‘friend’ say to her that her father ” is a player”. At twelve years old, it was devastating and distressing. She was broken already, without experiencing mortifying embarrassment and shame in her social network. Around this time she developed an Eating Disorder; the stress she was under from everything took an immense toll.
The shit sandwich is loaded and communally consumed by the whole of FW’s family.
I don’t even think it’s a relevant point, true or not. A dad doesn’t stop being a dad because of a divorce! He can stop being a married dad and still be a great dad. It’s not on his partner to make or keep him being a good dad. It’s on him. (Pronouns can be reversed here of course)
NBU,
I divorced my kids dad when they were young and I always say that my part as a mom is 100% and his part as dad is his 100%. There is no 50/50 in this.
Not divorced man. Cheater man.
Big difference.
Fukk no, in my experience.
THIS.
A good father doesn’t defraud his children’s mother. Same for mothers who cheat. Cheating mothers are not good mothers.
Yes this! The idea that someone can be a terrible spouse but a good parent is parent is as prevalent as it is wrong.
It also is completely contradictory with another nugget, which is that the best thing one can do for their children is to have and model a happy, healthy marriage (sucks for those of us who thought that’s what we were doing, only to then be blind-sided by our partner). And yet both of these ideas live side-by-side in our cultural views of parenting.
This is another narrative that needs to be rewritten! I would love to see CL take on this “bad spouse but good parent” narrative.
I think people love the “bad spouse but good parent” narrative because of RIC. Hopefully that narrative will change as CN continues to kick the RIC BS to the curb.
For so long, society compartmentalized infidelity. It was a lapse of judgement! They were unhappy! You drove them to it! Mistakes were made!
It’s only with Chump Lady that the narrative’s slowly turned to recognizing infidelity as what it is: Abuse.
Also, that cheaters never operate in a vacuum, they always abuse their victims in other ways too: emotional, physical, sexual abuse, stealing money, abusing the kids, etc.
The more society recognizes cheaters as abusers and lacking integrity, I think we’ll less of the “bad spouse but good parent” bullshit.
AP’s ex-wife (OBS) said exactly this to me when I called her to ask what kind of man would be spending so much time with my kids: AP was a crappy husband, cheated on her and lied during their divorce (she also mentioned he was bad in bed, just in passing), but he was a good dad.
That was five years ago. Now, he’s cutting back his time and attention with his kids to spend it on my XW. He is pushing the kids into a relationship with my XW (now their stepmother) that they don’t want, and punishes them when they don’t feel the way they are supposed to. He ignores and trivializes very real mental health issues with his own kids because he needs to leave town to be with his new family and just doesn’t want to deal with them. OBS doesn’t describe him as a “good dad” any more.
So, while in principle I suppose the cheaters could be good parents (apart from breaking up the family, of course), in practice the character flaws that led them to treat their spouse like shit will usually lead them to treat their kids badly too.
Tragic but true.
FWs lie to kids, gaslight kids, rob time and emotional energy from kids, embezzle kids’ college funds, shatter or make ill the betrayed parent making them less emotionally available for the children even if for a brief time, even expose kids to the types of STDs that don’t necessarily require sexual contact. Some FWs try to buy their betrayed kids’ love and/or pry loyalty away from the betrayed parent.
Sublime parenting, yes?
“Kids don’t enjoy borrowed glory from cheater mom/dad getting good reviews for oral sex. That’s more disgusting than funny, I know. But it could be these freaks think what kids need is a parent with swaggering hoochie mojo.”
Disgusting AND funny, HoaC,
I think you are spot on ????. I needed a laugh today, thank you!
Sunrise– I’m horrified and shocked by that broken promise. Not because the same didn’t happen to us in a way but because I sense from what you’re saying that your daughter is an especially tender soul.
Brazilian Chump– I don’t know why they do it and I’m a big skein-untangler. You might be onto something that they think they shine brighter as parents if they make our light go out. But I’ve got news for ’em: kids don’t enjoy borrowed glory from cheater mom/dad getting good reviews for oral sex.
That’s more disgusting than funny, I know. But it could be these freaks think what kids need is a parent with swaggering hoochie mojo.
Ick.
☝️☝️☝️ This! So true!
They aren’t available or willing to take care of their children and nonetheless “shatter or make ill the betrayed parent”, out of what I can’t help but think of as sheer cruelty. There is no point to it, they are robbing their kids of their primary caregiver just for fun. Or maybe they expect to be seen as the fun parent by constrast with the shell of human being they turn us into?
My 20 year old daughter just told me about the time she asked her father if he would ever leave our family. She was 6 and her cousins’ parents had split up and the father moved to an apartment. Douchecanoe, already fucking around behind my back, promised dear daughter that he would never do that. Forward 3 years to Dday and our family is blown apart. Daughter said she has never recovered from him breaking this promise nor him trying to blame it on me because I filed for divorce.
☝️☝️☝️ This!
He cheated because I was not a good communicator. Also, I had to explain what my boundaries were as relates to his interactions with other women because he did not understand what I would consider crossing the line. You know, because having a burner phone to text and email nude photos and intimate messages and fucking other women were apparently things he could reasonably think I was OK with. Because I never said during our marriage vows explicitly that I expected him to not chase tail the rest of our days. If I said “flirting with other women” as a boundary, he and the RIC counselor would pick apart what that meant because apparently I Didn’t Want Him To Have Friends. Every boundary I stated was analyzed. He can’t DM women through Facebook? What could be wrong with that!?! ????
I had a similar experience and of course the RIC just accepted it, along with anything else she said.
I just didn’t give her clear enough guidelines. Just a big misunderstanding, really. Of course, she had enough sense to hide it from me, but still, if I’d only communicated better she wouldn’t have done that underground stuff or lied about working late.
Samsies. I didn’t realize that I had to explicitly say that I didn’t want him fucking around. Hilariously, this also translated to me giving consent because I didn’t say otherwise… ponder the logic for awhile.
Wasn’t fidelity in the marriage vows??? I never understand how this part is just so casually overlooked in the therapist office.
How this is “overlooked” is that counselors are just people who got a degree. Now they hang their shingle as The Counselor. They bring their values to counseling. Not yours or mine. Theirs, current popular values, and a supposed non-judgement thing where some just never talk but listen for an hour, take your money and make another appointment.
And unfortunately for many, the longer they keep their patients ringing their hands, the better they do financially.
Not all, I know there are good ones, but dang what a risk; and when you are at your most venerable is when you need a therapist, so not a great time to discern a good therapist.
With an MD you can levy charges against a charlatan, but a therapist, not as easy.
Yes, after I had to repeatedly and thoroughly explain the word platonic to my ex, I finally clued in that it wasn’t confusion, it was disrespect.
Yep. I had to define “intimate” and “working on marriage” for him. I was being gaslighted and trickle-truthed. That stopped when I got a lawyer.
Agreed but to today’s point, the RIC totally enables it. They sit there and nod their heads when FW claims to be witless about this boundaries concept and don’t call them out on their bullshit. I couldn’t believe the counselor thought it reasonable that I needed to communicate and explain boundaries.
Oh boy, where do I start. I will say that I did not last long in the RIC. I guess the things that bothered me the most were:
1. The chump has to take part of the blame for an affair. Okay, so I have to apologize for going thru menopause, being busy with work, kids and running a household.
2. They said it is because you don’t give the FW enough sex, attention, affection, etc. that is a two way street people.
3. You cannot mention the affair. Yeah, your world gets blown up but the chump can’t have feelings about that.
4. You need to trust the FW. How? He just proved he can’t be trusted and is not honest.
5. You have to give him privacy and cannot look on his phone, etc. that goes back to trust, if FW is not willing to let me see this then obviously he is keeping SECRETS. Privacy means he can use the toilet without anyone watching him.
6. You need to wok on trusting him at his word. He has shown he is a liar.
7. You need to compartmentalization and bury this. Why??
8. You need to rebuild. Um, there is nothing to work epithet here. Trust is a foundation and without that there isn’t much to work with.
9. You need to give FW time. Why so the time limit on adultery can pass, so he can continue to abuse me?
Sorry, this has me triggered so much.I lasted a little less than four weeks in the RIC. That time allowed me to gather documents, get ducks lined up and get a pit bull attorney. Nope, this chump is not going to allow herself to be abused by a FW anymore. Time to build an authentic life with people I CAN trust. Yep, those people who show through their actions that they are good people.
Schmoopie will get her prize in the end. I may get the heirloom china but at least that is a win.
I sooooo wish I had done what you did for only 4 weeks.
But no.
It took me 9 years, 7 years separated, and a 4 week stint of letting him stay here after he got COVID to realize that there was ZERO anything he would be able to do or not do that I would ever trust him. My inside voice was always saying to me “ummm yeah no, I don’t believe THAT for a second”. And the idea of everything on your list… no thank you. I don’t care to be the marriage police. Been there, done that.
Thanks ChumpLady and CN because now I’m divorced!
Chumpedforanewermodel.
Most of yours but at the head of my list was:
You need to give him time to grieve the loss of his affair partner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Took ME months to figure out that meant I wasn’t supposed to acknowledge/admit/talk about my own grief.
Therefore I didn’t even feel MY own grief for months yet was still not allowed to mention it because of what it might do to him.
All about HIM.
Because I was trying to keep him. To get him to see his mistake. To get him to wake up.
I had 30 years and 3 children with him.
She = 6 months.
This before I knew about his illustrious 30 year serial cheating….just took him 30 years to find ‘her’.
Months drifting into a couple of years before I realized it was ME who needed to wake up.
Oy vey!
I am 4 years out, awake, very alert and much wiser now. Thanks to CL and CN.
Understand completely. I was heartbroken and then decided that he was not worth that. I went to rage mode after that but silent rage and gathered up everything I could. Hired a PI served him papers. Luckily we are in a fault state so he got adultery on the papers. That is now public record so everyone will know what he is about. Court date set now. He is trying to settle but wants me to take the short end of the s stick there too. Fortunately PI got some great shots of them in action outdoors. We have the glossies.
Can’t wait to be free of this FW.
RIC’s narrative is so pervasive that we hear these exact lines from laypeople. My XW gave me each one of them, from 1 to 9. Your list is a very concise and to the point account of the mainstream opinion on infidelity. Those chumps who dare defy the underlying assumptions are deemed bitter, unforgiving, self-righteous, intolerant, insecure, you name it. To the best of my knowledge, Chump Lady is the only one out there calling bullshit on all this and giving people the real talk.
You mention in #2 that sex, attention and affection are two way streets. From my personal experience and from reading stories and comments here at CL’s I would say it is usually the chump who lavishes those onto the cheater only to find her/himself more and more neglected over time.
The scolding for not respecting the cheater’s privacy in #5 is flummoxing. Not only there is the obvious breach of trust in sexual, emotional and financial infidelity, but the cheater usually doesn’t give a flying fuck to the chump’s privacy when confiding (while usually lying about) intimate details of work, health, financial, sexual, emotional issues of the betrayed partner to the AP.
The quack therapist quoted in The Guardian’s article is right about affairs not coming out of a clear blue sky and that something is lacking in the relationship: that something is reciprocity. Usually the relationship is already heavily lopsided in favor of the abuser by the time of the affair as it come to expectations of what one partner owes to the other. To the cheaters all; to the chumps the law. To try and make the chump double up on that after being gutted is to add insult to injury.
Amen, so true.
FW only weakly barked up that tree because the evidence leaned so heavily the other direction. He’d even text me photos of what he was wearing (always new clothing purchases while the kids and I wore second hand to save for our family’s beautiful future) before his extracurricular assignations in 4 star hotels and pricey bistros so I could tell him how handsome he looked.
What more proof of my devotion than my lies about his looks? Lol. During the affair he became pretty bloated and lost a lot of hair from spiraling secret alcohol addiction and general iniquity. I kept that to myself. I’ve always been a pretty nice person.
“What more proof of my devotion than my lies about his looks? Lol.”
????????????
True story lol. During the D-Day DARVO fest he was trying to tell me I was too critical and forced him into an affair. So I did a “find in page” of our text threads for the word “handsome.” And there were the selfies he sent on dates and times that corresponded to hotel bills and clothes shopping on the secret affair credit card. I always cluelessly sent back heart eye emojis or “handsome” comments.
It tortured me for a long time thinking how chumpy I was but I look back now and love the person I was then.
Wow, Hell of a Chump, I did something very similar when my XW accused me of not showing her love for not lavishing enough attention, praise and compliments onto her 24/7. I did a quick search into our chat history, in front of her, for (the portuguese equivalent of) words like “love”, “gourgeous”, “hot”, etc., you get the gist of it. And also for swear-words and insults. What became imediately apparent was the complete doormat I was years into our relationship and the utter emotionally abusive monster she has turned into. She responded to the evidence with (presumably fake) tears and “you’re right, you always loved me, I just didn’t feel like that”. WTF? And this was just our *daily* text exchange. My nickname for her at home was “gorgeous” (“linda”, in portuguese) and a couple more spicy ones at the right times. Now I see she was never gougeous at all. Love must be blind, as Velvet Hammer uses to say.
I, for one, am not pride of who I was back then. Being a doormat is not healthy. I wish someone more appreciative of my affection and hard work and love would have benefitted from them. I feel sad when I think the tender feelings of my youth were all wasted on a joker. No one will ever get me to this position again, no matter how good and safe a person can (seem to) be. The stakes are too high now.
Brazilian Chump,
Yes, I was told that I did not give him the attention, sex, love and affection he deserved. That is so not true. I gave him all that but at the same time, it is very hard to do these things when my son was young and would get sick and so on. I remember one time it was a long weekend and FW had plans for us to go to see family. Unfortunately, our son got sick fever of 101 and I said we can’t take a sick kid. He went alone but 15 years later, he brings that up in the session. He was so neglected and abused that I decided to take care of our sick son while neglecting him and he stated he never got over that I was so selfish. Go figure.
You selfish while taking care of your (his!) sick son? You are the selfish one and he holds a grudge against you for 15 fucking years over something so normal? Wow, what a nasty piece of work your XH is, if you don’t mind me saying so.
You don’t have ever to justify youself. Childcare and the resulting exhaustion aside, nobody is supposed to be 24/7 into worshipping her partner or else he will fall onto strangers’ genitals. Adults are not that high-maintenance. A grown-up that compete with his own children for attention is pitiable. Good riddance!
I doubt these kind of complaints are really about long held grudges. They are just something the fw came up with as a stupid justification. All it proves is you actually were a great spouse if they are that desperate for something they can use against you.
Fws are almost always disingenuous so you can safely assume their complaints are trumped up and don’t reflect any real feelings. It’s all bagged salad when you come right down to it.
Totally. It’s so much easier not to respond, take it personally (even when it affects you personally), or get caught up in the skein once you realize this.
Even their long held grudges are total BS, all about whatever is convenient and comfortable for the FWs. Their word salad has little to do with reality; it comes back to internal and external image management, consequence avoidance, compartmentalizations and kibble procurement. There’s a definite pattern, but I too suspect that their is very little self awareness or long term planning.
I always come back to ‘even our holidays weren’t that great’, said with a smirk because he knows how to wound. This man travelled the world with me! But it wasn’t that great! Once, the night before we went skiing which we did every year for my birthday, I came home late from my high pressure job as a CEO. There had been a last minute crisis and I had stayed late to support my team in sorting it out. With travel I get back in at 9pm (have to drive to airport over an hour away for 5 the following morning). He’s in front of the tv, drunk. No meal cooked for me. Nothing sorted. You get the picture. I suggested that instead of having yet another drink, he might help me. He went berserk. Abusive, swearing, holding my wrists, I’m a puritan, I’m restricting his drinking, the whole passive aggressive narc rage routine. I became very upset. I loved skiing. But could only afford to go once a year. I was so scared of who he was in that moment that I said I wasn’t going. He calmed down. It got patched over. This event was thrown at me 4 years later when he was telling me what was wrong with me (I did not then know about the affair that I later discovered). He said ‘you said you didn’t want to go skiing with me. How do you think that made me feel?’. I apologised! I felt bad! A year divorced and well over 2 years since he left for long distance exgfOW, I look back and see that there was nothing of me left. They do store the negatives, the flaws (we all have them) to use them ‘later’ whenever ‘later’ turns out to be. And they do it consciously. I don’t buy the therapist line that it’s unconscious. I knew that I was turning a blind eye to his abuse. He knew that he was abusing me every time he abused me.
Thanks, OFFHS and bread&roses, there is a lot of food for thought in what you said.
You’re right: assuming they’re insincere in their complaints and long held grudges is the best mindset when dealing with a fuckwit and almost always accurate. It does avoid us wasting precious time and energy in skein-untangling.
This comment from OFHHS resonated deeply with my own experience:
“Mine still remembered a time from more than 25 years ago when I didn’t seem to like a gift he had bought me. He trotted that one out after Dday. I have no memory of it so it may not even be true. He also had some other complaints about minor things from decades ago.
They store these things up to use against you later. That’s why they remember them, but not the thousands of good and selfless things you’ve done. They dismiss those immediately but hoard anything the least bit negative
The part about the event that was in the origin of the “grievance” being a either a misconstruct or an outright fabrication gave me pause.
The first appointment of our kids with a therapist my wife was long interviewed about how she experienced motherhood from the pregnancy on. She stated “facts” that I have no recollection of and I was puzzled as to how could I possibly have missed them, since I have always been a present dad and spouse (almost a helicopter dad). Also the timeline within those “facts” would have taken place was totally messed up. After the feelings of confusion subsided, I checked with close family and friends and, again, no one had the faintest memory of those “facts”. I assume now it was outright lies, designed to garner sympathy and promote and excuse her sad sausage bit (surprisingly, she unpromptedly admitted to our kids’ therapist that our separation was caused by her affair – that was a first).
Well, all this is just silly, oversharing me’s way of conceding that you’re probably spot on when you say:
“Even their long held grudges are total BS, all about whatever is convenient and comfortable for the FWs. Their word salad has little to do with reality; it comes back to internal and external image management, consequence avoidance, compartmentalizations and kibble procurement.”
Some of us try hard to salvage at least some relics of our ex-partners’ preciously perceived human decency, but I realize it is to no avail. Even if those relics were actually anywhere to be found, what good would it do other than making us vulnerable to their mind games all over again?
Time for me to retire the whole skein-untangling gear altogether. Thank you again.
“There’s a definite pattern, but I too suspect that their is very little self awareness or long term planning.”
Totally. They say or do whatever they feel is expedient at any given moment, which is why their behavior often seems wildly contradictory. It can take time and distance to see the pattern, but I’m convinced it’s always there. It’s about avoiding accountability and the dread of facing who they really are, which is why they prefer fantasy to reality.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from, OHFFS, but still… think about it: the guy still remembers vividly this minor disappointment of his after 15 effing years!
The only good reason I see for him to recall this episode is in the fact that notwithstanding his son being sick the motherfucker did not rain check his family visit (of course it was his side of the family), he went *alone*, for a long weekend! Could it be shame, instead of resentment, that keept this memory alive?
Mine still remembered a time from more than 25 years ago when I didn’t seem to like a gift he had bought me. He trotted that one out after Dday. I have no memory of it so it may not even be true. He also had some other complaints about minor things from decades ago.
They store these things up to use against you later. That’s why they remember them, but not the thousands of good and selfless things you’ve done. They dismiss those immediately but hoard anything the least bit negative.
Yes, my experience with the RIC only dates back to late last Spring. Now looking back, I just roll my eyes at that and it pisses me off. I had a sick ten year old boy with a fever and all the crankiness that goes with it. Looking back, it was always about him wanting to do what he wanted and screw me or our son if we got in his way. My son did not deliberately get sick to ruin his plans. Kids get sick and they don’t do well traveling when they are not feeling good. Of course, that just opened everything up to cheating.
At least now he can be happy because he will not have to sneak around with his Schmoopie who is 32 years younger than him. I am just glad my son turned out well and is no contact with the FW which is another story.
*Sigh*…. yup, we chumps are sure selfish. For my part, I had *just* (like.. a couple months ago) given birth to our second child and our first was still running around in diapers. I was breastfeeding and not sleeping because.. you know.. two babies! One right after the other.
After D-Day #1, a few months after having our second child, my former FIL advised me that I really needed to give FW more time and energy. Keep the romance alive. Book dates. Put the work into the marriage.
At the time I nodded and agreed with every word. This was my fault for not paying enough attention to my husband.
Today? I think back to that advice and I’m angry about it.
Wow! More time and energy, keep the romance alive *just after Dday* with two infants. Chip of the old block, huh?
My XPIL were both awful to me too: prior, during and after their daughter’s affair, of which I am sure they knew of before me. My XMIL stated many times that I left much to be desired as a husband. It was my fault too. As chumps, we are at fault for *everything*, even what we don’t know about.
Hope you are free from this bunch.
Mostly free. The children keep me bound (with as much NC as possible) to my XH and the Wifetress but, barring weird conversations that come out of left field occassionally, my life is 95% free from FW and his family now.
It didn’t happen overnight and I never exploded at anyone or flipped anyone the bird (look up meek in the dictionary and you find me) but I steadily distanced myself from my former partner and his family over the course of many years. I never wish them ill but I also never, ever reach out to them.
Sorry for bothering, I am curious: did not the therapist imediately point out his utter immaturity once he said “he never got over THAT”? What a spoiled brat!
No the therapist called it repressed anger and felt it was a good thing to air issues that helped cause cheating. That’s when I knew that the RIC was bull crap.
Now that I re-read #3, #7 and #9 (don’t mention the affair; bury it; give cheater time) I realize that maybe you would be allowed to air your “issues” what? 15 years down the line? When your life would be further in shambles?
Don’t these quacks realize they could ruin lives (or outright make people ill and die) with this sort of nonsense? How come these charlatans get their licenses?
I see… repressed anger… but you were told to suck it up and repress yours (sigh).
The last therapist we saw tried to convince me I could change X’s behavior when he started spinning out of control. Like I could get in front of the abuse before it started and keep him calm. That killed me as it was impossible for me to know when he would rage and abuse. It happened out of the blue, during normally happy occasions like holidays, Christmas vacations, Sunday before church services, a trip to Disneyland or just any happy event the X could destroy. Putting the responsibility on me to fix or control him almost did me in and that was before the final DDay. I danced so pretty, so fast to keep the man happy and what did I get but slapped in the face with a smug, unremorseful jerk the day I learned of his latest affair.
After learning of the affair, the therapist said I needed to tell X how I felt. I was allowed 15 minutes to speak with him, to clear the air and my crazy emotions I guess. And wow, did X use that against me, like a punishment–15 minutes of pure torture. Then, in the end, X decided he should get 15 minutes too, so he could tell me what a bad mother and wife I was because I made him the abusive, lying, cheating jerk he is today. So horrible, I still harbor ill will towards that therapist.
Haha, ChumpedToTheMax, they ruin holidays because it cuts in on their sexy time.
My ex ruined a trip to Disney World. Our two boys remember it to this day. He was texting on Space Mountain and, SURPRISE, lost his phone. Not only did we all have to wait around until the end of the day for the ride to close so he could make the staff search for his phone, we had to spend the next day at the Verizon Store while he got himself a new phone.
Some of the worst RIC advice actually, for me, turned out to be the best. Laura Doyle advises being the best wife you can be, no nagging, no complaining, rephrasing everything into “I would love” phrases. Example- I would love it if you were home with me every evening and I was your only sex partner. Barf.
Anyway, I tried it for 6 months and he was still cheating. It led me to the realization that if that didn’t work, nothing would. So I left.
Actually I tried to kick him out but he wouldn’t leave so I left.
Wormfree,
We should talk. 🙂
Laura is who I found pretty much immediately when I moved out 7 years ago. I loved the Skills she taught overall, but after lots of $$ and time, it was clear that no matter how much I expressed desires in a way that inspires it wasn’t changing the actions of Cheater Peter.
Found CL.
Now I see how the Skills had me “pick me dancing” for way way way too long. Giving cake all under “a wife trumps a mistress every day of the week and twice on Sunday.” Being involved in what was always completely unacceptable to me.
CL and CN changed everything. I mean EVERYTHING.
I still value what I learned and know Laura has changed a lot of women’s lives / marriages for the better. For me it just wasted too many years.
And I no longer want that dream of marriage which is still very sad. But I can’t.
There is a museum near use that is in an old train station with temporary exhibits in the basement where there is no cell reception. We took the kids (then 1 and 5) to see and exhibit there and FW kept disappearing. The kids wanted to keep going and we figured he would catch up at the end. We finish and wait another 20 minutes by the exit and don’t see him, we walked back through the whole thing to the beginning and couldn’t find him so we went back to the exit and wait. Like another 30 minutes later he came out like he’d been there the whole time. I found out on DDay that he had been texting with AP the whole time so he had to keep sneaking up to the main floor to get phone service.
He texted the AP from the cafe across the street from ER where I was being treated following a knife attack. The injuries were semi serious but the trauma pretty extreme. Yet he had to go get coffee at that exact moment.
Then a few days later he took one of our sons out on Mother’s Day to text the AP, figuring our youngest didn’t have the ability to snoop. I thought they were out buying mum a Mother’s Day gift. Nope. He was just arranging his assignation for the next day.
Monsters are real.
One of my older sisters said to me when he left “fight for your man!“ I told her, I don’t even know what you mean by that. I didn’t think the issue was going to be decided by a jousting contest. Fortunately I have a congenital inability to pick-me dance, so I wasn’t tempted, but it does bother me that even someone as intelligent as my sister would have that mindset.
I’m sorry you had to hear that from your sister. That’s heartbreaking. One of my former friends – Switzerland verging on flying monkey – was the same, and that was hard enough. She’s decades older than me, but very sexy and with an air of hard-earned wisdom, so at first, I thought she knew what she was talking about. I also think I listened because she told me what I wanted to hear: that FW loved me passionately and we’d get through it.
I’d already started to mistrust her advice and recognize major differences in values when she recommended I get dolled up to meet my abusive ex when he invited me to join him in a particularly offensive Hoover attempt. I was mortified, as this would’ve been incredibly degrading – not to mention, ill-advised. I was living at her house because the fucker had hurt me and wasn’t safe! That was the beginning of the end for that “friend” ship.
I told myself that! So embarrassed now, but I think I just had to get through that, to give up. I fought so hard for that sparkley turd. I guess I thought I could ‘save’ my family, a noble cause, I’m sure, but also based on a fraud. He was never going to stop his hidden affairs ( which were none of my business, unless of course, I’d like to join a threesome), and when I accepted that, I found my backbone and left. Still wish I could get back the years I tried to fix that mess! It doesn’t work.
The worst advice is that I was the one to repair it, YOU can save your marriage, for $399!
YOU have to be braver than this!
That is a crock of sh——t
Talk about a mindf——k!
These cheaters have already left the marriage.
????????
Was this by any chance that creep Mort Fertel? “Make the marriage a good place to be” puke.
I actually toyed with this shit for about 5 minutes(before I found out fucktard was fucking the rat faced whore), and clicked on his site.
Yep, “send me $399 and I’ll show you how you can affair proof your marriage”.
For weeks after I was inundated with emails, offers, etc, until I figured out I needed to ‘unsurscribe’. I wasn’t very computer savvy. ????????
That was to Letitsnow.
My parents divorced when I was 20. Dad was a liar, thief and pathological gambler who spent the years afterward stalking my mother. Luckily, he’s not very smart. He blamed everything on his Parkinson’s disease & had a new girlfriend & new stepfamily within months. My 17-year old sister & I were cast aside & the only time he showed interest in either of us in the following years was at Christmas in front of his family or when he needed money. That’s it.
His mother, my grandmother, blamed my mother (the chump) for EVERYTHING. “You never leave a sick man!” “Um, Nana, he left us.” “FUCK YOUR MOTHER!”
So when my 3-year marriage happened at 23 it was a disaster from the beginning. It was never the quantity or quality of the sex, we were humping like horny rabbits all the time. Married people don’t use condoms.
I stuck out the marriage with a brain-damaged (drugs, alcohol, multiple head injuries) poorly-tattooed cheater because “You don’t leave a sick man.” Instead, I threw him out on April Fools Day. I was 26.
I married a wonderful widower at 33. I never knew what a healthy relationship looked like until I was in one.
I’ve been in a bad marriage & I’ve been in a good one. It’s better to be in a good one. If you’re reading this & are on the fence, remember that.
So happy for you
❤️LIS
I was blamed by my MIL like your mom was blamed by your Nana. She told me if he was going to be accused of screwing everybody in town, then he was going to screw everybody in town! But she had it backwards. He was screwing everybody in town BEFORE I accused him of it. Atrocious people…
Your story of finding a good husband the second time around gives me hope that I can find that for myself one day. Hope is good when its directed toward a decent person. There is no hope in a cheater.
I wasn’t given a chance to reconcile. FW walked out within an hour of me confronting him. And that was that. So I read and watched tons on my own— including Esther Perel. But seeing as I couldn’t act on any of it, it only added to my sadness and confusion. Still, it didn’t take long for me to get free of it because FW stayed away and never looked back. Thank G-d.
And thank you to my therapist that actually told me I was lucky… she said that so many can’t decide what to do and are stuck trying to reconcile. She said that I would be fine but needed to get through the trauma. And that I was better off. She was right. And I’m thankful.
All of these RIC idiots need to fuck off
“You must own your part in it”. Alrighty then, counsellor, here it goes: I slept in – instead of getting up & making him flapjacks & bacon- so he could bang the OW in the parking lot before work. I let him stay home instead of insisting that he come with me & comfort me for my Grandma’s funeral so they could get their freak on in my house while I was gone. How about letting him pout & go back to the hotel alone instead of making the whole family go too while we were on family vacay so he could call her & have phone sex? I also didn’t grill him enough about our finances either when I noticed not enough money was in our account & accepted flimsy “tools are expensive” excuses. How about showing up to kid’s soccer party & noticing they were away from the crowd having a heated conversation & instead of walking up & punching them both, I calmly strolled over & asked what’s going on instead? Oh and instead of squeezing myself into that size 0 (when I’m a size 8) Victoria’s Secret french whore getup that he bought me & instead wore a romantic buxomy lace gown for our anniversary….do all of these account for “my part, my bad”? Would you also ask the defrauded, the bullied, and rape & murder victims to “own their part too”? How about a nice plate of go-fuck-yourself brownies with your Mr. Roger’s sweater vest?
“Would you also ask the defrauded, the bullied, and rape & murder victims to “own their part too”?” SERIOUSLY.
Your “flapjacks & bacon” comment made me laugh though.
“Would you also ask the defrauded, the bullied, and rape & murder victims to “own their part too”?”
Great point …and yet, for most of our history, that is exactly what society did. Blame the rape victim because of the clothes she wore or how many other people she had slept with. Blame the bully for being too weak. Blame the defrauded for being too stupid or gullible. It has taken decades to change these views, through tremendous hard work in the legal system and in all aspects of society (and even now, those old views still persist in some circles, but thankfully not in our laws or most of popular culture). That is the change that needs to happen now with cheating.
With cheating, I feel that we are at a tipping point in the narrative. Tipping from old-school thinking of “blame the chump, coddle the cheater, you never know what goes on in another person’s marriage” to “cheating is abuse, cheating is destructive, cheating is the sole responsibility of the cheater, cheating is a reflection of bad character.” CL and CN are at the vanguard of this change, and we need to not only push forward but actually double-down, until the RIC is as dead as those other old victim-blaming constructs. Someday, cheating will get its own #MeToo moment that finally tips the scales, and that will happen because of all the groundwork laid by those here and the new narrative that CL has framed with her fusion of deep insight and hysterical snark. Vive la resistance!
I think this has to do with hindsight bias. Which, as we know, is impossible. How were we to know that these people would abuse us? But, according to mainstream RIC, we should have known and therefore, are culpable.
Happy Now – Your comment here has inspired me. I feel I have a way to contribute to this movement. Also contending with voices from others I respect – as well a voice in my own head – that discourage me. I’ll be saving this comment and referring to it again. Thank you.
I never got entangled with the RIC, thankfully.
I only had our preacher who told me “you need to get mad”. He was right I needed to, and I finally did.
But, I am looking forward to other responses.
I think the reason that the whole “cheating is caused by problems in the relationship” assumption prevails is simply that therapists and others have an unfortunate tendency to just take cheaters’ claims at face value. We know that most of them do blameshift once caught, but it doesn’t seen to occur to many that this blameshifting could be just that, an attempt to minimize their own apparent malice/accountability or rationalize their behavior. Unfortunately, a similar issue happens with abuse. In Lundy Bancroft’s, “Why Does He That?” he recounts an exchange with the therapist of an abusive man who had admitted to verbally and physically assaulting his girlfriend, who proceeded to defend the abuser and blame the girlfriend despite never even meeting her:
“THERAPIST: I think it’s a big mistake for Martin to be attending your abuser program. He has very low self-esteem; he believes anything bad that anyone says about him. If you tell him he’s abusive, that will just tear him down further. His partner slams him with the word “abusive” all the time, for reasons of her own. Ginny’s got huge control issues, and she has obsessive-compulsive disorder. She needs treatment. I think having Martin in your program just gets her what she wants.
BANCROFT: So you have been doing couples counseling with them?
THERAPIST: No, I see him individually.
BANCROFT: How many times have you met with her?
THERAPIST: She hasn’t been in at all.
BANCROFT: You must have had quite extensive phone contact with her, then.
THERAPIST: No, I haven’t spoken to her.
BANCROFT: You haven’t spoken to her? You have assigned Ginny a clinical diagnosis based only on Martin’s descriptions of her?
THERAPIST: Yes, but you need to understand, we’re talking about an unusually insightful man. Martin has told me many details, and is perceptive and sensitive.
BANCROFT: But he admits to serious psychological abuse of Ginny, although he doesn’t call it that. An abusive man is not a reliable source of information about his partner.”
A PARTNER WHO MISTREATS/DISRESPECT THEIR PARTNER IS NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION ABOUT THAT PARTNER. *That* seems to be the issue that mainstream discourse struggles with.
Have you ever read Bancroft’s work, CL? I really, really think you should! He spent 30 years as a counselor in an abuser program and he says so many of the same things that you do. About why bad partners do bad things, about what real remorse would look like, about bad partners’ attempts to try to force their victims to share the blame, about how there is no “being neutral” when it comes to mistreatment, and even about mainstream therapy/culture (especially couples counseling)’s tendency to blame the victim through quid pro quo treatment. He also considers cheating to be a form of abuse (he specifically prescribes a “NO THIRD CHANCES!” rule in “Why Does He Do That?”) and emphasizes that a victim does not and should not be making “deals” with a destructive partner to make them change.
I encourage everyone to do so, it’s great. “Why Does He Do That?” is about abusive partners specifically, and “Should I Stay or Should I Go?” is about destructive partners in general, including cheaters. It is extremely validating to have a professional confirm what so many have suspected for a long time about shitty partners and to give a firm smack to all the conventional, Perel-style advice out there.
A friend gave me Stay/Go, and I read it and decided to go back and give it one more try. Spoiler: if you’re even reading that book (and I specially if a well-meaning friend gives it to you), it means YOU SHOULD GO. I still have it at my house and am curious to revisit now.
Starry Eyed, that book changed my life. It came up when I Googled “why does my husband glare at me in public?” I ordered it right away and was amazed at how my husband’s behavior fit the profile of an abuser.
My divorce was seven years ago now but I just re-read “Why Does He Do That? for the third or fourth time. Each time I read it I find something that helps me. I think every therapist should be required to read it as neither of mine had a clue.
Thank you Starry Eyed for recommending this author.
I heard Lundy recently on the female dating strategy podcast. It was like a breath of fresh air. Book was written 20 years ago!
My experience with the RIC, I jumped on the bandwagon right away. Sent him videos. Bought the books. With his sister, I went on a campaign to dig out every possible reason that I may be at fault. His sister believed he was angry with me. MC said I need to worked on my anxious attachment. All this while, FW seemed very happy in our marriage and had no complaints. I gave him a big fodder of things I may have done which contributed, which he deliciously used later to write a 9 page secret document called “Journey to the end”. He kept telling I was not to blame, while secretly sending this document to his family to demonize me. I had not come across CL back then. DDay3 happened. Walked out. Divorced. Found CL. No contact. Started healing. Felt like I got ejected from the Matrix. 2.5 yrs later…. At peace.
I read this book a few years ago and the light bulb went off. I live my life and have taught my children that the person who has hurt you is never the one to instruct you on how to heal from it.
I have and I recommend the book here often.
Starry Eyed,
It’s been recommended numerous times on this blog. Lundy Bancroft admits that most abusers are unwilling to do the hard work of changing but the few that do make Lundy’s work worth it.
Bancroft isn’t as lily white as people think. Deep Google him and you’ll find some things like i did.
Your statement isn’t credible because you give no details or links to details. Are you a cheater/abuser? Sorry I have to ask, but why else would you drop in with a completely vague accusation against this author. Bancroft’s books are among the few that call out abuse and cheating for what they are: intentional behaviors, not mistakes or weaknesses.
Thanks for saying that.
I get a little tired of the hints about subjects or book, but no direct information.
I am not going to spend my time googling for some obscure info on anyone. Put up or shut up.
Please share.
I could never find any of his credentials or training but his book resonated with me.
Great points!
I think so much boils down to the assumption you point out, the myth that cheating is the result of problems in the relationship.
What we’ve seen on CN is that cheating is very often one abusive behavior in a larger pattern of abuse. If therapists made THAT the assumption, they’d be of much more help.
I think the reason most therapists coddle the cheater is that if they don’t, the cheater will walk, money stream ends. The only one they can continue to get money from is the betrayed; because the betrayed is emotionally destroyed and desperate to save their marriage.
Please not, not all betrayed are desperate to save their marriages, but if they are in MC with a cheater, most likely they are.
This article. Wow. Just wow. It sounds like it was written by a cheater.
I the “betrayed” must be a safe place for the “Wayward spouse”.
Are you frickin serious. He’s not safe for me, hasn’t been for 3 years, but I need to be safe for him to heal so he can help me heal. WTF?! I need to overcome this pile of shit just dumped on me and push aside myself again for his needs. I think his needs have been more than taken care of in his best interests long enough.
I’m playing the patience game. Our kids are grown with their own families so we have an empty nest. I’m not leaving until all debt in my name is paid. Should be done with that in 6 mos. or so. I have become a very convincing safe place. Oh yes dear I understand your struggles, here sign this postnup, so I know your serious and I’ll stay. He signed it. Got my alimony amount set, the percentage of his 401k that will come to me, etc. After 30 years together he should’ve known I’m not the one to “betray”.
Chumps, after the first day or two of crying and questions STOP, take true inventory of your marriage, your life and act proactively for yourself. No one else can or will. Play the patience game. Kids in my opinion suffer more in an unhealthy marriage environment than a 1 parent home.
The last D-day, klootzak was all set to discard but couldn’t stomach filing. He couldn’t even utter the “D” word. His reason for wanting me gone was that he thought it best for our child to see an example of a loving relationship. That is to say, I’m certain he had schmoopie waiting in the wings in the new town he planned to move. But I put on Oscar winning acting skills and held him off and then the pandemic hit and his ability to move was shut down. It bought me time to get an attorney and line up the ducks. Had I only known about post-nup agreements, I would have secured one years ago. Too late for that but I can keep us from moving, keep the house, and have had tons of time to research and sort out what I would be entitled to in my jurisdiction.
He tipped his hand with the wrong woman.
So true!!! I always said my ex husband’s biggest mistake was betraying a wife who was a local chess champion at 11, quoted James Woods “Diggstown” character, and whose favorite movie was “The Godfather”. He always thought he was so much smarter than me; he still hasn’t figured out what happened – six years since the divorce. But he does now realize he really got nothing.
So many choices, too little incentive!
My FOO culture influences produced gems like the country anthems of Stand By Your Man and You Ain’t Woman Enough To Take My Man. They inspired you to tolerate and forgive him for being “just a man” and to pick me dance to keep him at home. The burden of keeping your marriage together was clearly, “women’s work.” If you did not do your job, you “cause” your children to grow up without a father, and to become part of the failure statistics attached to children from “broken homes.”
So, if you do not have superpowers to “fix” someone else and prevent them from making “mistakes” you are clearly to blame for all his bad choices. After all, he’s just a man. Another superpower, you are expected to forgive and forget, because the Bible tells you to.
I found many superpowers hiding in my psychic bag of tricks, including being a good mother, being reliable, going to work through my pain, keeping a roof over our heads, and food on the table. I was not willing to ignore his bad behavior and put up with it for the rest of my life. I didn’t want to dance for someone I found to be beneath contempt. So sorry/Not sorry.
PORTIA
Me too. That generation…
‘So, if you do not have superpowers to “fix” someone else and prevent them from making “mistakes” you are clearly to blame for all his bad choices. After all, he’s just a man. Another superpower, you are expected to forgive and forget, because the Bible tells you to.’
Watched my mother and step-mother do it.
Only now am I seeing more deeply how I bought that narrative hook, line and sinker.
As I wrote somewhere in this discussion in response to someone else I went as far as completely denying my own grief over the loss of my 30 year marriage but gave him the space to grieve the loss of his 6 month fuck-buddy – that is what the RIC books said I was ‘supposed’ to do and all the ‘good’ spouses were doing it so I jumped right in because I hadn’t found LACGAL or CN. That was also when he came back to ‘give us another chance’ and I was over-the-moon because he was giving ME another chance…That is now much denial I was in back then!!!!! Yes, I seriously thought he was a prize worth fighting for – could not see he was seriouslly damaged goods not wanting to really ‘come clean’.
That didn’t happen until months into this dance when I learned he was a 30+ year serial cheater….
Enter Mack Truck…Full Stop….Me slammed and flattened across the windshield spread eagled….
I am so much a Chump.
And I know so much more now and am loving who I am discovering myself to be and a day doesn’t go by that I don’t see him and what I thought we had as an utter and complete lie and how that has effected me and our beloved children.
As I have mentioned many a time he is a covert,passibe aggressive narcissist so his persona was
Mr. Wonderful to all who knew him.
You can guess where that left me, my opinion of myself and our children…..
CN has been a life changer. Too bad my mum didn’t know about it back in her day…..I’m doing it double in her memory 🙂
The behavior we observe as children leaves such an imprint! My mother now has dementia, but when she was young, I remember her as smart, funny, and strong. She worked outside the home, and inside the home, and if there was a particularly hard or nasty project on the outside of the home my dad needed help with, she signed up as volunteer crew without hesitation.
But her father and grandfather were strong domineering men, and she was raised to believe the man should be the head of the home. Her own father told her she was wasting her time going to college (which he did not contribute to, by the way) because she would “just” marry and have children. She did marry and have five children, and eventually completed a PhD in Botany, while working throughout her life. She always looked to my father to “be the leader” and only took charge or made decisions when he proved, once again, he was ill equipped for the job.
So, I received contradictions locked inside mysteries throughout my impressionable youth. When I married, I looked for strong men of character to be my “partner” but surprisingly I found men who had an appalling lack of strength or character. I was well into my 30’s, and had 2 children, before it occurred to me my marital problems had actually started in my childhood.
A chump is not created in a vacuum. I have learned that to understand my own problems I have to be analytical about my ancestors. I have had choices they did not have, and thankfully I finally stopped searching for a “strong man” to be the head of my home. My mother was always a natural leader, but she never saw herself as entitled to lead. Women were clearly supposed to be “helpmates”, not leaders, according to her primary education.
I now know with certainty I am capable of running my own home and life without male supervision or approval. Learning to trust yourself and rely on your own instincts and abilities is the way a chump becomes independent IMHO.
AMEN!!!
When I began looking back at the friends my mother had, when I was an adult and able to see more clearly, what I discovered astounded me.
I discovered that my mother, as so many women were in her generation who married men with salaries that allowed them to stay at home, was pretty damn smart ‘for a woman’. As a child I just saw her as ‘my mother’. When I got married and my eyes opened up I realized all that she had sacrificed to be at home. I just though that was ‘normal’.
She too was one of those smart and fortunate women who did get to go to college for the education. NOT to be groomed to be a wife and mother.
Yet that is where she ended up after WW2 when she had to give up her career.
Her friends had all done the same thing so I was surrounded by smart, intellectually frustrated women catering to domineering entitled men.
Despite what society dictated/relegated as women’s work back then – I feel like the determination that they all had somehow got funneled into me although I could not see it at the time. Now I realize that I was swimming in it but I was simply totally blind to it due to my age and my own personal issues that were weighing me down during my 20’s.
It is challenging to put all of this discovery into words here. I suspect you know exactly what I am trying to express.
Sounds like we are on similar paths in discovering who we are by looking at where we came from and the struggles our ancestors had due to constraints put on them during their lives and times.
A glorious web reaching for the full potential of all human beings filled with pitfalls, compromises and dead-ends that they faced as best they could; expressions of the undauntable human spirit.
Love the part of being older and realizing that yes, I do not need the approval of others.
Amen 🙂
I love this post because I can sooo relate. It makes me feel energy, you know? That you are doing double for your mom. I’ll consider that, too. Not for my mom because I doubt my dad ever cheated, butr for everyone else who was / is sucked into the vortex of the RIC like I was.
” I would rather adjust my life to your absence, than adjust my boundaries to accommodate your disrespect ” I read that somewhere, I think it applies here. I applaud your strength of character and appreciate your example. Wishing you all you deserve.
Therapist- “Mrs. LTC Fuckface, you need to accept responsibility for your part in the failure of your marriage.”
Mr. Fuckface- “ I’ll tell you my part. I got tricked. That was my part in his affair. He lied to me and cheated on me. That was my part. I was his victim. He deceived me.”
Therapist- “LTC Fuckface, what do you say to this.” That fucker lied to her and she ate it up with a big spoon. Why he was the victim of my paranoia and my inability to trust. Subsequent sessions were the two of them trying to fix poor inadequate broken me.
Thank all the gods we PCS’d and he was too busy to go to therapy. I finally found my own therapist who stated “Adultery is abuse.” and freed me. I found Tracy’s book a year later and then this site.
I stayed for thirty three years with an abusive man because of stupid shit the RIC advocated. Oh I tried. I tried to be accountable for my part in his failure to be a decent human being. Now I am free. Thank you from the very glittery bottom of my disco ball heart, Tracy.
One thing that people don’t really talk about is these people giving advice, or therapists, might be the biggest cheaters / abusers there are. The person telling you to work on your relationship marriage might have brainwashed their spouse into accepting 5 other partners while remaining dedicated just for them on their side. They might be cheating with 20 year olds at 50. They might be the spawn of Satan and honestly most of them sound like they are. I really am personally not into therapy because I can’t take advice from someone who might be doing a horrible job on their own life with no moral compass and i don’t let people tell me what is right or wrong. A therapist told me that a man have multiple women, while the women only had them is fine in some cultures. I was like that’s wrong. If a woman was getting stoned for being raped would he support that too? I hate people on soapboxes.
The exgfOW for whom the ex yearned, pined, got teary about, blah blah mush mush for all 26 years of our relationship is a life coach with a doctorate from a decent UK university. As part of my character assassination, while he was lying about the affair to everyone save a few enablers, he spewed amateur psychology at me. Once I knew about the affair I got myself a proper BACP regulated therapist who helped to get my life back on track (no mean feat as I was 60 at the time without a job, no kids, little support). I sometimes wonder how the golden life coach ‘coaches’ her clients. She specialises in helping mothers juggle their lives. Presumably that includes diary management to fit in exboyfriend affair partners stalked over many years via Linked In (not excusing the ex – he is an abusive, sadistic tiny little creature and she is welcome to him). It’s an ever growing niche area for therapists and coaches, I suppose. ‘Manage your affair efficiently and effectively, with my help, an expert with the T-shirt’.