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The Trickle Truth Is Neither Trickle Nor Truth

thongAdd to the list of Reconciliation Industrial Complex euphemisms I despise — “trickle truth.”

I’ve ranted about “wayward” before and the “fog,” but it only recently occurred to me that “trickle truth” is equally moronic… or Orwellian. (Moronically Orwellian? Deviously Orwellian? Anyway…)

“Trickle truth” is like “truthiness,” the term comedian Stephen Colbert coined for the rebranding of lies, omissions, and bullshit.

What is trickle truth? Well, if you’ve spent any time on reconciliation boards, you’ve read about it. The narrative usually goes like this:

“I found a receipt in Elmore’s pocket for a hotel stay. At first he denied he’d ever been to that hotel. When confronted, he said ‘Oh, I was there for a conference.’ Alone? Yes. But I’d also found a dinner for two receipt. Who spends $176 by themselves at Outback Steakhouse? Okay, he was with a ‘friend’. She later came to his room because hers didn’t have a Gideon Bible and his did. And she needed help with her Bible verses because she always says her prayers at night before bed.

I felt uneasy. But who was I to question a good man helping a woman out with Psalms? Then I checked the cell phone bill. I guess she needed help with Proverbs, Corinthians, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John too because there were thousands of text messages between them. He admitted they’d been talking, but it wasn’t what I thought! They were just friends!

I think he’s having an affair. Perhaps it’s only emotional at this point, but I don’t know. Clearly, he’s paralyzed with shame about it, so he’s trickle truth-ing me. Only admitting to the things I have evidence of. It’s driving me CRAZY. I know this is a very difficult time for him, and my questions trigger self-loathing in him, so he can’t spit it all out. But I want to know what happened! I’ve read here that trickle truth goes on for months and I should just be patient while he comes out of the fog. This is killing me!”

Let’s call trickle truth what it is — continued lies by omission.

Really at best trickle truth is leaving out the damning crap you haven’t discovered yet. It’s also minimization (she’s just a friend!) and  gaslighting (I wasn’t at the hotel!) — and chumps spackle the entire thing into a phenomena they call “trickle truth.”

No — trickle truth is just a continuation of cheater think and entitlement. They enjoy the power of their secrets. They feel entitled to keep the truth from you. They feel entitled to misrepresent their affairs and lead you to believe it’s harmless and you’ve misunderstood them. If you want to get ANYTHING off this cheater, you’re going to have to work for it! And then they’ll deny and soft pedal what you found.

They aren’t “trickling” the truth in dribs and drabs. They’re throwing you off their scent. It isn’t shame that makes them withhold information — it’s wanting you to get the fuck off their backs so they can have more cake.

There’s no truth in trickle truth at all, except for the truth YOU discovered.

Truth doesn’t trickle. It’s told. Anything else is just more mindfuckery.

This column ran previously. Feel free to comment!

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  • Yes, I’m collaboratively divorcing a serial cheater who is expert at trickle truth. There is no truth. He even makes up lies like,…it was a married woman I met through work, for only a year….as if that was ok….because the truth? It was the same stripper from D-Day 3 years ago….so….a 3 year cake fest with a stripper. Sweet. Can’t wait to be divorced from this fraud.

    • KaBree,

      I hope you are being very cautious with your divorce. The word “collaboratively” seems to impossible with someone who continues to lie even when caught and also makes up lies.

      As many of us who have walked this path before know, they are incapable of collaborating.

      If you have children or if you will need maintenance, please consider at least a second opinion or make sure you do LOTS of digging.

      Cheaters do not limit their lies to just the affairs…financial deception usually goes hand and hand with affairs, especially when they are paying for sex.

      • “Cheaters do not limit their lies to just the affairs…”

        Agreed! Absolutely everyone will be subjected to their lies. So, as happened to a chump I know, the kids will be told that the minimum one year affair was a “one time thing” that was “the biggest mistake of my life.” What they definitely won’t be told is that it wasn’t the only affair and it wasn’t the last.

        Cheaters are, by definition, inveterate liars.

        • I agree as well. Once I started the divorce process loads of other lies came to light. It was pretty astounding and no way would I trust my ex to tell the truth about anything, even something as simple as did he wipe his ass.

          • Nord,
            “I agree as well. Once I started the divorce process loads of other lies came to light. It was pretty astounding and no way would I trust my ex to tell the truth about anything, even something as simple as did he wipe his ass.”

            Been there ^^^

            My ex lied about all sort of things like even paying the gas bill – claimed the bank has mixed up the payment, then I found the standing order form in his coat pocket. When I waved it in his face he said “I knew you’d be mad, so I didn’t tell you I forgot”. ( !! )
            He also conveniently forget to tell me he was $h@gg!ng the OW…..

        • YES! He’s told everyone, “it was a mistake”. No, a mistake was when you caused the kitchen fire. Cheating is intentional. It was a conscious decision. An omission of truth is still a lie. Even when he’s shown the evidence, I was the one who he raged at for “checking on him”. They twist the truth to what to what they think they can get away with and have you believe. It’s a five yr old mentality of “you can’t tell me what to do”.

      • Agree, collaboration is impossible. His reactions about everything when confronted were so bizarre that I recorded him because absolutely nothing made sense and it’s 3 minutes of ranting and raging, I realize now, just to deflect. We were going to submit our divorce papers and I wanted to clarify his income and boy did he deflect with a major temper tantrum (not kidding, it was like listening to a toddler). No visit to the court that day to submit docs. More abuse dumped on me creating more innate need to run like hell resulting in me getting the worst terms of a divorce ever, no child support, no alimony, had to sell my beautiful house. So, yes, KaBree, please get everything you want and do not sign on the dotted line until that happens because collaboration, I don’t think you’ll get whatsoever. It’s just like CL’s post: you will get trickle truth, if that.

        In my case, it was “we are just friends,” then when I caught him skiing with her in the back country, “she’s just teaching me how to ski,” then when she was at his 50th b’day party and I asked where her husband was she said, “oh my husband doesn’t like social events.” Then per ex to me, “You just can’t bike fast enough to keep up with me, she’s a mountain bike competitor” then she to her husband (once it all came out and I talked with her husband), “We only hugged once.” Then, when looking him straight in the eye, “Are you having an affair,” “No,” he uttered softly gently tears welling up in his eyes. Then when I pressed, “I might be attracted to her.” And then over many months trickle trickle trickle and my intuition telling me strongly and his monster narc abuse at his highest level, I was an emotional wreck. Then his shaming me for snooping, so of course, I vowed not to. Then later, my 16 y/o reveals that she saw his emails when she was in 6th grade but he vehemently shamed her to such a strong degree that she didn’t tell me because she said, “I didn’t want to cause trouble in the family.” This, when she saw emails of professed love to AP that caused D to wonder, “who is this woman he loves so much, is she a relative, what is this.” She held his secret for years. Breaks my heart. So when DD hit, she overheard me talking to my girlfriends and said, “I know who ‘AP’ is” and proceeded to tell me her story.

        This stuff is serious. Infidelity is abuse. I am still reeling and trying to recover financially. It’s hard to believe the best about someone for so many years, to really admire them, and then to slowly, painfully, get the trickle truth about their character disorder and that the life you had was not real. (Feeling a little low today-getting better, but it’s a process).

    • I Have to agree with Rebecca. Someone who can and did lie and steal from you for months or years is not a collaborator. These are control freaks and manipulators. There is no collaboration with people like these, especially if they have had negotiation training in their professional lives (which is why they are successful in their jobs).

      Let him talk about collaboration. Find a very very good attorney to do over his proposals. If he balks, play dumb and explain you need some professional advice, nothing personal. Gather ALL of the financial docs you can and that you are aware of for a forensic accountant.

      Don’t be swayed by his NiceGuy game face. Protect yourself and your children.

      • Thanks ANC and Rebecca…I feel I have outstanding counsel and agree with all that you say. At the very beginning, so will have to see how this goes and switch gears if needed. He is indeed a pathological liar, he has repeatedly jeopardized my health, so why would I believe anything that comes out of his face. I don’t. Forensic accounting is soon to be underway, so it will be hard to hide from that. Wish me luck. I feel sick all of the time right now.

        • I agree with TheBetterJamie, along with the other posts – you got this. However, your last sentence concerns me about how you feel sick all of the time. That is a universal effect of this terrible situation. May I ask about your appetite and sleeping? As CL has mentioned on her book, it’s important to try to eat and get some sleep. A visit to a doctor to get some anti-nausea medicine, along with a sleep aid if you need one may help. Also, nourishment in little snacky-but-healthy meals several times a day can be helpful. I was on the infidelity diet, had become malnourished and had what a friend refers
          to as the “Gaunt-and-Haunt” look. This is a marathon. Please take care of your physical self as well. Sending hugs.

          • I have to weigh in…I ended up with walking pneumonia, which went undiagnosed for months and I became so severely anemic my hair fell out and I was out of work for a month- I admit I was in a fog still (a year later) but finally vowed to put myself first in ALL ways! I couldn’t see an end to the pain- but there is a wonderful world out here still. I just had to learn to love myself and you can too!

            • I am a clinical Dietitian and I ended up in ED multiple times from dehydration and inability to swallow, malnutrition etc. I am 5ft 7 inches and got down to 43kg .. medical staff were astounded to see me in the very place that I have been called in to treat other patients. It was a matter of surviving that first year in and out of emergency and finally anti depression anti anxiety Meds kicked in. It has given me a much deeper understanding in my clinical practice at least 🙂

          • My dad gave me the best advice when I does separated from my narc. A rested mind is a rational mind. So what you can to take care of yourself.

          • I agree with Boudica… right now you are constantly feeling triggered and stricken. Sleeping and eating is very important, but please also find a way to get out of your head for a little while every day. Find an activity that gives your mind a break from your nightmare. It does wonders.

            Weeding the flowerbeds after work every day helped me. Also knitting and drawing.

        • Almost a year into a “collaborative” divorce from a narcissistic wife. Absolute hell. There’s no collaboration at all, just pulling teeth the whole time.

          Ask for a road map and game plan and crack the whip when your cheater injects unnessesary drama.

        • Mine wanted collaborative….until he found out there was a forensic accountant involved, then he wouldn’t even talk about it.

        • What state are you in KaBree? I’ve been going through the collaborative process for almost a year ago, and my STBX seemed at first to “collaborate.” The team lost its ability to keep things moving and they only movement now observed is when I compromise on getting less than what the court would be likely to award me. I made these concessions to move the process along, and we were one item away when he has found a clever way to stop the process for reasons everyone on the team knows are bogus but cannot be challenged. Indeed, the collaborative process is VOLUNTARY and that we are already ‘so far along and have invested so much money’. So we are at a standstill, and the more he waits the more the finances are on his side.

          It might be the team you might ask? I wish it were. But the team that was assembled has extensive experience, the attorneys and coaches are among the top most respected professionals in this field.

          Before you enter the collaborative process, I would also recommend that you read “Why does he do that?” by Lundy (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0425191656/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=40104392767&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12091823377536760507&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_8c1395frk2_b).

          CL recommends it in the resources section, which is how I became aware of it (THANK YOU CL!)

          If you recognize your world in these pages, require your potential divorce team members to read it as well and have a conversation with them about the gap between their word and they actions.

          If you choose to move forward with the process, I would recommend to turn each session’s agreed upon points into agreements to be relied on. This will drive your costs up, but will minimize his ability to stall the process down the road.

          Good luck!

          • Chumptitude,

            I just got the book. It looks very interesting.

            I highly recommend this one

            “Women Who Love Psychopaths: Inside the Relationships of inevitable Harm With Psychopaths, Sociopaths & Narcissists” by Sandra Brown

            link here

            http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0984172807/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687602&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0977801322&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1VPHQQF4EPNYE8HE80CK

            and also this podcast by her which explains in great detail the Relationship Cycle that all of these Personality Disorder things follow (please don’t be mislead by the title-this is good for men and women):

            http://www.blogtalkradio.com/relational-harm-reduction/2014/10/24/after-a-pathological-love-relationship-hes-moved-on-and-is-with-someone-new

            Both were a very big eye opener for me and answered all of the questions I had about the ex, his family, my family and all of the red flags I had during my time with him. I highly recommend EVERYONE to read the book and listen to the podcast. Both also helped me in my healing process and since reading and listening to both things have changed in how I look at him and everyone else that is involved in his life and supports the NO CONTACT policy I have with them all.

            Thanks for the link for the book Chumptitude and CL. I will read this one this weekend. I need to look at the books CL recommends.

            • Thank you Beth, I will read the book and listen to the podcast, super helpful!

              Here is to redirecting my AMAZON chump skills… Now my focus is to forge my way to Meh, hope to see you there soon :)!!

              • You’re welcome Chumptitude! We are in this together. We need to support each other no matter what. I hope to see everyone here to the road of Meh! One day we all will be there. I’ll bring some cake real yummy cake you can eat!

              • You posted the podcast a few days ago, prompting me to listen–it was incredibly enlightening for me. That podcast gave me a ride far up the road to meh! So, thanks!
                I was struggling with wondering if, maybe, OW really is better than I am–at least as far as a fit for him, and wondering if maybe his calculated risk to ditch life with the kids and me was a smart move that paid off for him. I was feeling a bit down, thinking that he probably “loves” her even as he never loved me.
                That podcast knocked some sense into my head–I now see the patterns from our relationship (very ugly) are being repeated in theirs.
                My xH is not capable of bonding–not even with his perfect soul mate.
                I trust that he sucks (so does she.)

            • Beth, really good link. Everyone should listen to it. They touch on many things I have been struggling with. The description of the cycle, how it is not about us, how they shape shift, and how pathological they are, e.g., incapable of love, that it is impossible to build a relationship with them, that they are doing to the other woman what they did to us, and how, due to their pathology, they never loved us. They don’t love the new woman, just as they didn’t love us. Hard cold realty that hurts but I am finding it helpful.

              I felt two steps closer to meh after listening to that. Thank you and I will definitely buy their book.

            • For the guys, check out Shrink4men and Shari Schreibers site which includes a lot of info on abusive, personality disordered women.

          • Chumptitude has just explained why you don’t attempt to negotiate with a cheater via collaboration or mediation. They don’t want a divorce, all that shit does is hold you hostage. File, then you have a deadline to negotiate a settlement. liars lie.

        • Just FYI: I’ve consulted with several attorneys now; one specializes in collaborative divorce, and another says they have begun to do more collaborative divorces. The attorney that specializes in collaborative said that they tend to go more smoothly, and cost less. BUT he did inform me that both my husband and I would have to pass a psychiatriac evaluation before we could proceed. He also stated that, considering my husbands history of lying and controlling behavior, there was a good chance he wouldn’t pass.

  • I can understand that coming out with the whole truth is very scary. We are dealing with people that have a hard time admitting the truth to themselves, so how can we expect them to come out with the truth to us.
    And lets not forget that there are dark areas in ourselves that we care not to share with others. I am not saying that is an excuse to lie or betray each other, but we are all flawed!!!

      • Exactly, and this is what can keep chumps stuck. Sure, everyone is human and has their share of fears, issues with vulnerability, etc. But so what? At the end of the day, the marriage, the family, the health and future of one’s spouse (the chump) is on the line, and if they can still not “admit the truth to themselves”, then their can be no marriage.

        At some point, understanding and compassion for the human condition must take second stage to the circumstances of reality: one person continuing to lie and harm others. Perhaps you can still have compassion, but do so after protecting yourself by lawyering up and divorcing and protecting your children.

        • ‘Exactly, and this is what can keep chumps stuck. Sure, everyone is human and has their share of fears, issues with vulnerability, etc. But so what? At the end of the day, the marriage, the family, the health and future of one’s spouse (the chump) is on the line, and if they can still not “admit the truth to themselves”, then their can be no marriage.’

          Very well said Buddy. Often it’s the things like ‘we all make mistakes’ and ‘well, I’m I’ve been no angel myself’ that keeps us chumps in the Spackling Olympics. Sadly, that big-heartedness is what gets us ‘trickle-truth’, gets us cheated on in the first place. They know us. They bank on the chance that we’ll ‘turn the other cheek’ and ‘throw no stones’. If they truly believed us when we said ‘cheat on me and I’ll have your balls on a plate (pussy sewn up – whatever)’ they wouldn’t have done it – regardless of how stupid they are.

    • It simply comes down to:

      “I don’t think you are deserving of the truth. I don’t care that your heart is gored open every time you find out something new, even though you’ve told me that’s what happens. You’re so dramatic sometimes. What matters is that you don’t think THAT badly of me, even though you should. If you want to know what happened, you have to earn it through finding hard, irrefutable evidence. Until then, I’ll gloat in my cunning. I’ll just be over here, winning.”

      • “and when you have irrefutable evidence I’ll sneer like it ain’t no thang and continue to gore your heart with my smug indifference.”

        • Mine said there wasn’t enough Whiskey in the world to touch his co-worker back in Sept 2014 when I busted him over his phone bill to her home! (unbelievable calls on his cell bill to her for years!!!!), took her 4 times on 3 day business trips without me knowing too over the years, then when I left him and got an apartment in the city, he showed up crying one night and said he was ready to come clean, said one night he got drunk (enough whiskey after all maybe?) with her and some others and drove her home (drunk driving too!) and they kissed, but that’s all that ever happened between them, that ONE time and only KISSING! 4 years of shit, I suspected something in 2012 when I found out from my daughter that he had her to our home and in the hot tub when I was at work, my daughter stopped by unexpectedly. There was another guy with them and he blamed him who hardly even knows her! That’s my trickle truth BS story. I don’t care what they did now, she can have the asshole.

        • And when you have irrefutable evidence – like walking in on them – they’ll STILL deny. It’s downright pathological.

        • This is the story of the last three years of my life. Now that my divorce is final-3 weeks ago-I am beginning to see what was done to me and I hope I can begin to heal and reach MEH. I just closed the door on that book and hope to rewrite a new, happy, peaceful one.

    • Sure we are all flawed. BUT I do weigh my flaws, my decisions and resulting impacts of those actions on the people around me in my personal life.

      If you can’t do XYZ action in front of your spouse, children, SO, it means you shouldn’t do it at all. PERIOD. Flaws and all.

      • flaws are being moody when exhausted, forgetting minor matters, bouncing a check once in a while, mixing darks and lights in wash…

        years of deceit, giving your loyal and unawares partner an STD, and endangering the family’s finances are not inner dark parts of the psyche. they are choices. add up a few years…or decades.. of these and it beomes character, not flaws.

        or lack of character..

        • Thank you Chumpette. I got the “I was moody, and she didn’t know what to do.” Eventually through multiple spots of this on by behalf, my years of not loving her the right way. Affair.
          Thank you for saying the moodiness is a flaw, I’ve been fighting with myself on me for a while. Know she is the one that made the decision, but am a chump so take the blame A LOT. Another check mark on moving on, I’ll give credit to you on getting me there.

    • mgirontree, seems you have a good heart and want to think the best of people. As one of the old lawyers I used to work with used to say to the judge when representing his client ” Your honor, there are misdemeanors and then there are misdemeanors”. What you are putting forth is like the false equivalency deal CL has written about. You know, where the cheater admits to cheating but points out that you, at one time, left the toilet seat up etc.
      I submit that no normal , non disordered person could lie to the extent these folks do over the extended periods of time they do. People lie, but these folks are incredibly comfortable with it and sleep like babies with no worries.
      My second wife and I were married for 8 years. During that entire period of time, she represented to me that she had her B.A from the College of St Benedict here in Minnesota.
      In point of fact, I discovered by talking to her brother and dad when the infidelity was unfolding, that in her senior year, she had quit school, sent home fake grade reports to her parents’ house and was ,in fact , shacked up with a married factory worker in St Cloud.
      *8 years lying like that without any worry. How does one do this? Why does one do this? I gave up trying to figure it out.
      But, there are flaws and then there are flaws.

      • By no means do I condone that because everyone is flawed then take the lies and betrayal. But only through forgiveness can we move on to better things. What difference does it make if they come out with the whole truth? Does it make what they did any easier on us? Do details and confessions make it any less painful? This is their delusions that they may or may not figure out in life. And we have to work on our own delusions.

        • It sort of does make it easier, as it answers a lot of doubt and questions re what the heck was going on.

          • I agree, Arnold. The problem with those lingering questions is that they LINGER….for a long, long, long time. The truth, no matter how painful, is reality. You have SOMETHING to come to terms with and put behind you. I never got that. After years of agonizing questions, wondering if I – or we – ever meant anything to him, the lingering questions began to fade. It didn’t have to take years of my life….it could have been over so much quicker. That he denied me that – putting me through even MORE hell – was nothing short of cruel.

            • I needed and still want answers. I needed answers especially in the beginning, when I was feeling undone and had no idea what was fact and what was fiction. Twenty-five years worth of bits and pieces of memories were flying through my head and I was trying to connect what I thought I knew with whatever real shit was hitting the fan…..It was traumatizing and disorienting at best. Knowing, REALLY knowing vs guessing or having to try to believe the fucked up cheater’s next permutation of the “truth,” didn’t make me feel better except in terms of relief. It was a real relief to find out what WAS true or not, because so many things from the past that had never made sense, suddenly did/would.

              Continuing to find or get truth as time went by was difficult, yet there are still a handful of questions I’d like to know the answers to – even if it’s brutal. We’re all different and need different things, so asking myself if I needed or really WANTED to know the answer to X question, was sometimes helpful. I have let some things go because I’ll never get the answers; and, I’m still bothered by a few things even though I know I’ll probably never get the answers. Either way I think it’s true, that at some point it just doesn’t matter anymore “what else.” I wish I’d hurry up and stop wondering what else and cross that don’t-give-a-flying-fuck finish line.

        • mgirontree, it does make a difference. You may not care or want to know all of the details, but others do. When we make a simple request of our cheater to tell the full truth, we are asking for the truth about OUR LIVES. We may want to know the reality when we believed something different about our own history because we were gaslighted. We may want to know the full extent of the betrayal in order to judge our willingness to consider reconciliation. We may want to know to what extent our health or finances were/are endangered. We may want to know who else was involved or who was in on the secret so we can make our own decisions about how we interact with those individuals going forward. We may want information about how we were manipulated or deceived.

          How can you forgive when you don’t know what it is you are forgiving, anyway?

          For the record, I experienced “trickle truth” and that is what ultimately led me to throw my H out of the house. He would disclose a little here and a little there. Each time it was fresh trauma. For weeks I asked for the complete truth and would be assured that I had it, then another tidbit would dribble out. I think he was trying to stay one step ahead of my sleuthing. I told him that he did not have the right to disrupt my peace of mind, my life, my job, and my sanity whenever he got the urge to confess. I demanded that he put everything on the table at once, and still he could not do it. That stonewalling lead directly to our separation and his banishment from the home.

          I think you are still smoking a little hopium there, and I say that as someone who is nearly 4 years into reconciliation.

        • I really believe that if my husband had been truthful about the whole mess, all of it, up front, we could have possibly worked something out. The lying and “trickle truthing” is what destroyed every last shred of respect I had for him. But I guess that’s the core of this whole matter: cheaters refuse to accept responsibility for their behavior. It’s not about shame, it’s about damage control, and preserving cake.

        • Mg

          There’s no forgiving the X for what he has done. Tried it and it was always a repeat performance. I believe HE is in fact delusional as he is disordered. I don’t believe chumps fit the criteria for being delusional. Fucking someone while your married and telling your spouse you love them is not a flaw. X is a serial Cheating narcissist. It’s a personality disorder. This sounds a lot like what keeps chumps stuck. Forgiving them because we are flawed? Really?

        • I sure could have used the whole truth about his unprotected sex before I got pregnant with my eldest child.

    • “…we are all flawed!!!”

      So WHAT?! Sometimes I procrastinate. It’s a flaw. But I certainly wouldn’t compare procrastinating to cheating

      • There are different degrees to how flawed we all are. I am not comparing. All I am saying is that how can we expect them to tell the truth when their biggest flaw is telling lie after lie. Do we expect them to suddenly overcome this delusion.

        • I do not expect them to tell the truth. I merely comment on and am amazed by the lies. But, you are right. These floks never come clean and the sooner we accept that and stop expecting a confession or apology, the better.

          • I think mine new if he told me I’d leave him which I would have, 4 year affair??? screw him! Disgusting!!! He treated me shitty too, now I get why.

          • Mtree… The flaw is the character….cheating is the act and a choice . Lying and is its varying presentations(trickle, omission, blantant) is method to get away with it and to divert blame. Deliberate self serving acts to support the flaw. It aint delusional… Its deliberate behavior.
            Lying does not make you a cheater… And cheating does not make you a liar.
            When you talk about forgiving a flaw… You must forgive that your cheater chose underhanded and misleading methods to persue a self serving act. Very different from a flaw. Your focus seems off.

          • I’m with you Arnold. I AM somehow still all WTF? and amazed by the massive amount of lies, as well as the permutations of every stinkin one. If it weren’t my life, if I weren’t living it, if I weren’t reading it in practically every post here, I suppose I might find it fascinating on some weird level – like one would find a discovery channel show fascinating or something. I don’t think it’s something I’ll ever fully comprehend and it’s probably always going to leave me aghast and thinking WTF?! At least until I have time to think about it and process it for what it is and then usually conclude that nothing, absolutely nothing, should surprise me anymore. But, sometimes it still does……

        • I agree that you should never count on getting the truth from a cheater, ain’t gonna happen and people should not dwell on getting the truth and just move on. However you lose me at the forgiveness thing. I will never understand why forgiving is so important to some people. In reality the person you are supposed to be “forgiving” more than likely doesn’t give a rat’s behind, so why waste your time. It all just seems so insincere to me.

          • I know what you mean. However, I googled “forgive” & the first definition that came up was “stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offence, flaw or mistake.”

            I think forgiveness is for the Chump, not the POS cheater. Maybe forgiveness leads to Meh.

            • I have a rule; I don’t forgive anybody who doesn’t ask for forgiveness, while taking responsibility for their actions and the related consequences.

              I’m perfectly happy to GET OVER the cheating and the cheater, to stop feeling angry and resentful, etc. That’s good for me, and for the people I care about.

              Ain’t forgiving anything, however. Nor forgetting.

            • I agree with CL’s definition. I don’t want you dead anymore. It’s getting to the place where you are blissfully indifferent.

              For me, it was accepting that I couldn’t change any of it. Like Arnold said, I was never going to get an answer or an apology. It was a decision to let go, and stop hanging on to my resentment for not getting them.

              Anger is good, until it stops serving it’s purpose, then you have to stop feeding it.

              • Yep, that’s kind of my take on the whole forgiveness thing. He poisoned the years we were together, he’s not going to poison the rest of my life. Hence Meh. Refusing to give him any more power in my life is my goal. When I hate or resent someone, I’m giving them the power to make me feel bad for a long time.

                That being said, in my case I have a tough time around the anniversary of my son’s death which will be about the 26th of this month. Then all bets are off. I give myself permission to revile cheater ex for a while. Then it’s back to Meh.

                They crave centrality. Meh is the best revenge.

              • I don’t know how you it is possible to let go of the feelings and emotions from something like that. God must have given you an abundance of strength.

              • My Dearest “Momma” Tessie,

                I think of you often & remember you in my prayers. So good to read your comment today.

                What you have been through totally confirms the existence of Satan!

                I marked July 26th on my calendar just now. I will not ever forget what you have been through!! More importantly, our Precious Creator and Heavenly Father will never forget

                I will be praying (more than usual) for you and for both of your sons that day.

                Totally agree that some things DO NOT merit forgiveness in the sense many people think of forgiveness. Not Ever!

                Too many people twist the words about forgiveness in the Bible. Even God does not forgive when there is no basis, no remorse, no repentance. He just casts them off……

                As was mentioned, forgiveness in these cases is for the aggrieved party—–we take away the perpetrator’s power to destroy our lives and to take away our peace of mind by their heinous actions. I agree with you, dear Tessie, that ‘Meh’ is the best revenge!

                Love you and all of Chump Nation!

        • This article isn’t for those of us who have moved on to divorce our cheaters. We know that “it is what it is” and it ain’t getting any better. This article is for the chumps chasing unicorns and “accepting trickle truths” from the spouses they are still living with now.

          Trickle truth is peddled by the reconciliation industrial complex as the shit sandwich the chump is supposed to eat while in false reconciliation. There is no reconciliation without complete and total disclosure by the cheater. Which is why real reconciliation very rarely happens.

          Yes, everyone is flawed but there is hardly any reason to stay with a cheater after you find out he/she has cheated. There is NO reason to stay with them if they’re going to continue to tell you half truths.

          Ask me how I know!

        • Mgirontree, they are NOT delusional. Are you trying to reconcile right now? Cos you sound like me back in the early days when the lies and the bullshit was so strong I thought Saddam was having a psychotic break. No, he wasn’t, he was willfully and with full intent to manipulate, lying and gas lighting me AND everyone else. An honest person who fears telling the truth doesn’t bullshit you and twist reality. Of course cheater does not = honest. As for forgiveness, the only person I am trying to “forgive” is myself. Saddam isn’t worth my time, everything he did was intentional, delusional my ass…seriously, don’t believe that shit, it’s just your last ditch, strongest spackle bucket you are troweling on.

  • I agree about the “fuckery” part!!

    The kids try to track down dear old Dad. He and MOW are at a course in Toronto together to “better their careers”….puke icon here….and are supposed to be staying at a hotel where everyone else is. But they are not.

    I believe it was her kids and husband that called them out on that one. They could not be found and somebody else commented that the two of them had chose to stay at an alternate location.

    By this time I had chose to leave the marriage but MOW husband was just catching on to the truth of the situation.

    The fabrications and lies that these two created was all part of the specialness that was their tru lurv.

    I still put pieces of truths together once and a while ( in the shower, driving the car, making a sandwich ).

    It burns my biscuits when I think about all the lies sprinkled with shards of the truth along the way. I am left over the years with these flashbacks of “ah-ha” moments.

    I stopped trying to unravel the skien a long time ago – but it pisses me off that my perceived past and my real past just don’t line up!!!

    It makes it hard to date again. My picker is on high alert now.

    Anyone who spends a lot of time doing their own PR sends me into a tail spin too. These people tend to bend and twist the truth to their advantage and I cannot stomach them.

    I think I need more coffee….

      • Here’s the deal. None of you folk have gotten to Meh yet. As long as you obsessively post on this weird forum in which chump lady obsessively mentally masturbates about her ex husbands, you have not reached meh.

        Perhaps because you still love your spouse and regret not giving them a second chance. Some serial cheater need to get the boot, but a one time cheater deserves a second chance.

        My marriage is vastly improved since my husband cheated. I spend more money. My husband helps around the house and we spend far more time together and he is more romantic than ever. I love it. I am happier than I ever have been in my marriage.

        The prospect of losing me forever, scare the heck out of my husband. Try reconciliation you might like it.

        • Uh…then, why are you here, Inlove? Seems to me this would be the last place you would be unless you had reservations regarding your new found love.

          • “My marriage is vastly improved since my husband cheated. I spend more money.”

            There is something seriously wrong with this statement…

            • Hahaha walkingthroughhell! I knew exactly what she meant. BTDT. It’s a way to pass the time when you’re waiting for the other shoe to drop. It’s called “retail therapy”.

            • Same here Walkingthruhell. When I read those kind of statements I always thing about the psychological phenomenon called Stockholm Syndrome. It is so sad to read when chumps state that about the cheaters and the affairs. Just a thought I have when I read that.

          • Don’t feed the troll: it’s just Fiona again. Same M.O. every time: ad hominem attack on CL and then fake “cheating improved my marriage” anecdote. Meh.

        • Well most of us have tried that route of reconciliation, but only one was trying to reconcile and it sure was not the cheater. And guess what they used that bitter (for us chumps) time of breakonciliation to screw us financially, morally, emotionally, mentally and sexually until we went mad with grief. Then, unable to bear any more we followed chump ladies advice and kicked their sorry ass into touch.

        • And just how long have you been in reconciliation? Sometimes a couple can reconcile for DECADES before the cheater ultimately cheats again.

          I’m sorry, but the stats on reconciliation being ‘successful’ aren’t very good. Cheaters seem to prefer repeat performances, no matter how much ego-stroking or therapy they receive.

          BTW, if you’re so ‘meh’, what are YOU doing here?!

          • So if one chooses to make the marriage work then they don’t deserve support from us?
            Wow! The anger you guys carry in your lives is so evident in your responses to anyone who is willing to forgive.

            • Mgirontree,

              I have been reading your comments on this post. I don’t agree with any of them. I don’t think you have any understanding on how much hell these cheaters and the things they sleep with have caused us. Your answer is they are flawed and we need to forgive. Sorry but that is NOT an educated statement at all.

              My question for you is that have you ever been cheated on? What about finding out your partner has cheated and not using any form of protection that could place YOUR health at risk (via STD’s, HIV/AIDS) ? Have you ever found out that your partner has gambled all the money from your bank account and you cannot pay the rent, get food, heat your home? Have you been kicked out of your home and no place to go because he has moved in the OW? Living in your car with no money no place to stay? Losing all of your friends and family because they take his side? If you have children and they cannot be feed because he takes all the money out of the bank account? Then also your partner does not want to see the kids ever? Many people on here have been beaten, abused in so many forms you cannot even understand. The finances and the mental toll that these people do to our lives day from day to day and the people around us also.

              Are you saying we MUST forgive these assholes? NO mgirontree it doesn’t no work that way. This is the real world. We are real people. Our lives have been through HELL!!!!!!! Please tell me what kind of hell you been through? I’m kind of feed up with people like you telling me to forgive and you have NOOOOOO dam clue with what hell I been dealing with and what other wonderful people on this site and Chump Lady has helped us with.

              • Beth, I have been cheated on in the worst possible way. But I choose not to stay in anger for my own sake. I choose to forgive for my own sake. You can do what works for you.
                Here is my question to all you chumps, is being cheated on the worst thing that can happen to you? How about loosing a child? how about the parent who is willing to forgive the man that took her child’s life? What emotions do you feel when you hear a parent forgiving her child’s killer? Forgiveness is not condoning the act, forgiveness is for your sanity so you can move on.

              • Totally disagree Mtree. Forgiveness is man made. Much like religion. U can prescibe to whatever floats yr boat… But telling one chump that she is wrong for not forgiving is the same as telling her that her belief system is lesser than yours. You chose to forgive your cheater and that works for u. Bravo. But sitting there telling others that its what u gotta do to let go… Or for there own sanity … Is very very very narrow.
                Well and the bottom line is if you gonna bust out the koolaid… Make sure you have a few flavors going… Cause we all dont like fruit punch.

            • Not true! See above. I’m 4 years into reconciliation, and have spent a lot of time pondering the nature of forgiveness and what it means to remain in a marriage that has suffered such trauma. I’ve posted separately on CL about the many many steps and the mutual hard work that has gone in to maintaining this relationship. People do deserve support, for sure. InLove is not providing any support. S/he is mocking, derogatory, and (in my opinion) delusional. She mocks those who suffer, and CL for creating this site, which is unique in the infidelity world. She is delusional if she thinks that being able to spend all the money she wants is what makes a marriage attractive or satisfying for most of us.

              And last of all, she says that infidelity has made her marriage better, but I bet dollars to donuts her marriage could have been made better without having to live through the nuclear bomb that is infidelity. Infidelity is not necessary to improve a marriage, and in my opinion, just makes it exponentially more difficult to accomplish that goal.

              • Excellent comments Still a Chump.
                Mgirontree has posted intermittently for a while now, and despite our best efforts to assure her that ACTUALLY we do offer support to chumps who are trying reconciliation, both she and InLove feel they have to argue polemically with us. If our collective experience has been that ‘forgiveness’ has brought us nothing but more pain, more abuse … somehow this, according to Inlove and Mgirontree makes us lesser beings than them – who apparently hit the motherlode when they practiced ‘forgiveness’. So, of course, this MUST MEAN they are the last word on the subject and WE must be the losers, and they MUST tell us so. It’s a shame, isn’t it, that their all-pervasive ‘forgiveness’ compels them both to seek out people in pain and beat them over the head for being ‘lesser beings’ than themselves. Hmmm – I see a dichotomy looming …..

              • I think whether you choose to forgive someone or not is nobody else’s business, personally. It seems like the people who insist on it are really just directing attention from where it should be, the cheater’s bad behavior. He can take his adultery/lying/coveting/stealing up with God, not me.

              • My forgiveness does not mean reconstruction. I forgive so I can let go of anger. I forgive so I can move on without holding on to the lies of the past. I can never change the past but I can surly have more peace here and now by not holding to questions that may never be answered truthfully.

              • I have Meh so forgiveness is irrelevant as far as I’m concerned. They aren’t the same thing, and you can have one without the other. But like I said, to each his own.

              • Are you not telling me that I’m the loser because I forgive. I am not in reconciliation. Forgiveness is not for him, it’s for me.

              • I’ll be able to forgive one day when I’ve totally accepted the big picture about him, that he is mentally sick, like Ted Bundy.

              • Mgirontree, I AM the parent who has has lost a child to cheater ex. Lost as in murdered.

                Forgive?

                How does one forgive the unforgivable?

                About him….Meh.

                About cheater ex murdering his own defenseless child in cold blood, just to get back at me?

                Nope. Not happening.

                The best I can do is understand why and how cheater ex came to be such a POS. I can have compassion for the poor abused child he once was. The thing I cannot and will not do is use that compassion and that understanding to excuse his actions.

                Ever.

                If someone else in my shoes can do that, well good for them. I can’t. Especially now around the anniversary of my son’s murder.

                Sorry my friend, that one just won’t fly. Not in my world.

            • Ok Mgirontree – Do me a favor and why don’t YOU forgive my X for me. Because clearly, I am not evolved enough to forgive someone who actively tried to emotionally and financially ruin me. Guess what, that’s no fucking “delusion”.

              • Forgiveness, whatever a persons definition, is a personal choice – and a choice made because it makes the journey easier for them. It’s a self-preservation mechanism of sorts, and everybody’s mechanism works differently. Some people can’t handle negative emotions, where others can compartmentalize them. As long as we get to meh, that’s the goal.

                Somebody preaching that forgiveness is the only way, is one thing, but I haven’t seen that here.

              • How on earth can forgiving someone provide a benefit? Maybe if they apologized, but how many of us got sincere apologies? How can anyone be forgiven if they do not apologize? That makes no sense to me. ” I forgive you but you are not sorry”? How the fuck does that even work? I cannot follow the logic.

              • Tessie… Thanks so much for post. I have no words that could accurately express what I would want to say about your loss, your grief and your strength to move forward in life. I admire that you feel the right not to forgive him. I dont forgive him. I dont forgive anyone who purposely takes life.
                The enlightened path of forgiveness is man made. We as humans need to rexamine all that we have been told ( some crazy ole man once wrote this) and disregard what insults our own soul.
                Your path is not my path but i may see you on your journey. I can only hope that I salute you as you walk on by and if your path crosses mine i dont obstruct but instead walk with you as long as you need and let you pass if that is what you need.
                Much love. With deepest empathy.

              • Tessie, I am so very sorry. Dear christ! There are no words to express how deeply sorry I am. I am so very very very sorry for what happen.

              • Donna, I am not the OW. I am not making any excuses here. I am saying I choose to forgive for my own sanity, not because he deserves forgiveness or has even asked for one. Staying in this amount of anger is not good for the soul. You don’t know me and you are lashing out on me with anger. This is anger can cause physical and emotional trauma. It’s not necessary. Hasn’t he already caused enough pain. Anger will inhibit the ability to find love inside yourself to heal from this awful trauma.

            • Mg

              What actions are you forgiving him for? And anger is good as far as I am concerned. X left me when my mother passed away. He picked up a whore while he was out with me. I tolerated abuse for years. He discarded his children and granddaughter. I had to be treated for STD. He was tested for HIV. Today we are talking about the truth and the lies they used to fuck.

              Not only do you talk about forgiving, you add that we are all flawed and delusional as well. And to that I say WTF, really? You have a right to speak your mind but to me personally it sounds more like the justification shit I endured every time I forgave the prick. I don’t blame myself or take ANY responsibility for the disordered.

              • mgirontree,

                It sounds like from what you are writing that you ARE judging all of us. Anger one of the normal 7 emotions that every living being has. It makes us human to feel these emotions. It is part of the normal grieving process. It is part of the healing process. Remember mgirontree we are human beings! So it is fine to feel emotions. It is normal! These emotions will change from day to day during the healing process. Many people on here have their own reasons why there are here and we don’t need someone judging us. We had that already with the cheater, OW/OM, and the people around these cheaters. You need to recall how you felt during that time.

                Are you any less or more human than any of us? No! You came in this world just like the rest of us. I’m not buying your statement that you have forgiven your partner. That is ok but your comments to us are not ok! Maybe just maybe what Chump Lady and others have written has struck a nerve with you. If you want to debate your comments also that is fine but if you were cheated on please remember that we are human beings here and you had to deal with such pain.

                However from what you have written so fair I don’t see any empathy and/or compassion form you. Which is very odd and to be honest with you I am seeing RED FLAGS with your comments. If you have been cheated on I would think you would do a lot less judging and more empathy since you been in our shoes. So far all you have done is judging us! Simple as that.

                With your questions above asking “What is the worse thing that has ever happen to us?” is not a good comment at all. Why is that ? Because it lacks a great deal of empathy, and has some entitlement tone to it also. I have never have read that type of comment on this board before and it gives me red flags with your way of thinking. That is one big thing that many of these Cluster B Personality Disorder people lack is empathy. Also from your comments there seems to be some level of ego coming from you. That you are better than us. Another check box from the Cluster B Personality Disorder checklist.

                Your answer is that everyone is “flawed” and “forgiveness” is the answer to everything. I think that you are still in this very old school talk show mindset that forgiveness is the answer to the problem. Just doesn’t work that way. We have the right to feel the way we do. Our lives have been placed in so much danger from these “flawed” people. Also if you have been cheated on I would think that you would have more empathy and compassion with all of us chumps. If you have been in this situation and if you have heart and soul that is working properly then you would write much better comments than you have written. I don’t read any empathy from you at all with your comments. There seems to be no compassion from you with all of your comments on this board and a great deal of ego. All you have written is about dark sides of all people, being flawed and forgiveness and judging us with one comment you wrote:

                “mgirontree says
                July 17, 2015 at 10:52 am
                Judge much!!!!”

                That right there is a RED FLAG from someone that wrote he/she has been cheated on “the worse way”. What kind of question is that? Where is your compassion then? I have never read a comment like yours before unless you are just a troll or a cheater or the OW/OM wanting to pass themselves as a chump. Also there seems to be a large amount of entitlement from you also (another sign of Cluster B Personality Disorder). Also you wrote above about us being judgemental and that is really what you are doing. You are really judging us with the “Judge much” comment!

                Remember you came on this board with your comments and you have free will and you made a choice to comment here. The sorry excuse of being flawed and forgiveness just doesn’t swing with any of us here. Also your entitlement judgmental ways just doesn’t work on this site. You my dear are NOT any better than any of us. Also the statements asking us what is the worse thing that has ever happen to us is very rude and has no compassion at all. Very sad for someone that has stated that they have been cheated on. I would think you would recall the pain that you were in when your cheater did what they did to you. That pain will never every go away. That memories of the cheating doesn’t go away. The events of the affair and how he/she treated you doesn’t go away. This is abuse mgirontree. You need to remember that before you come on any board with your way of thinking. I don’t buy it for any second you have been cheated on. Why you ask? Because people that have been cheated on don’t treat others like you have done on this site. Here is your humanity during your forgiveness?

                There are so many problems in the world and that is one of the many problems in the world that people has lost or just don’t have any humanity left. We are so greedy in our wants and needs that we just walk over people that are in pain. That is what you have done with your comments. Just walk over us because you have forgiven your “flawed” person. If that is forgiveness I don’t want it at all. No thank you!!!!!

            • Are inlove and mgirontree the same person? Donna replied to ‘inlove’ and accused her of being the OW. Then mgirontree came back with her retort about not being the OW.

              I’m very confused. I also think it’s very weird if you are one person pretending to be two but whatever floats your boat honey.

              This is what I know. All of us delusional chumps contribute to this blog not to keep hating the cheaters but to help new chumps realize that they are not alone. I don’t see anyone attacking the reconciling chumps that come on this board unless they open with inflammatory statements like “delusional”. Tryinghard and stillachump post and no one attacks them. I was a reconciling chump when I found CLs site and no one attacked me either. Coming to this site helped me realize that something wasn’t right. Once I read her articles I knew that I didn’t have one of those cool unicorns, I had a one of those run of the mill every day cheater types.

              He wasn’t one bit sorry and he wasn’t doing anything to reconcile. He just sat back and let me do everything and he watched me dance. He would’ve cheated again too. He was already cataloging all the times I was “missing a spot”. I got out before I had my guaranteed second dday and I credit Tracy and all of Chump Nation for showing me that there was another option. I didn’t have to stay and eat the crapwich which wasn’t edible no many how many condiments I applied.

              They offered up something different than the typical advice of the whole Reconciliation Industrial Complex. There was no advice to let “him grieve his affair partner”, “let him come out of the fog” “do the 180” and my most favorite “wait six months to a year before I take action.”

              The more people that spread the word that cheating is not Okay, the more chumps out there will get out and stand up for themselves. I think that’s why CL has more trolls like inlove on her board every day. The RIC’s damn has a leak (finally) and the word is spreading. Get used to it people cos we ain’t going anywhere!

              • Chestersuck

                Yes! I never called Mg the OW yet she did respond as if I did. I thought perhaps she might not have been aware of the masturbating basement trolls like in love with herself. The whole conversation with Mg started with the subtle yet recognizable patronizing statement crediting chumps with being flawed and delusional, not unlike cheaters themselves. And to follow that with forgiveness struck a nerve and did make me justifiably angry. I thought my response was appropriate. I think Beth was correct noting the comments showed no empathy or compassion. I don’t believe they are the same person however. As in love vomits the same fifth grade mentality in her posts and obviously needs psychiatric help.

                What bothered me the most was her cruel questions regarding the worst thing that ever happened to us as chumps.

              • Wow! I had no idea forgiveness = amnesia! Give me THAT kool-aid please!

                Because that’s what it seems like it would take to forgive and then have no lingering feelings about it. I agree with CL that indifference is likely the best most of us will muster up, and even THAT is all an uphill climb.

                Good for mgtree if already at the top, but espousing that our “unforgiveness” is the root of our sadness, anger, confusion, grief, etc, is just bullshit.

          • Beth

            Thank you for your comments. This is it exactly.

            Mg

            I found your response unacceptable on so many levels. While I believe your motives are perhaps sincere yet misguided I will respond in hopes you are trying to work through your own pain. We are here after all to support one another.

            Anger
            I rarely expressed anger. My therapist modeled healthy anger because the anger I grew up with was so scary I never wanted to act angry. After years of living with a covert narcissist I finally had the courage to file for a divorce.

            Anger is healthy.

            Narcissistic abuse was blatant from my father and subtle in my marriage. It was life long

            My soul was robbed by the narcissist as was my spirit. I fight daily to get it back.

            I will try my best to explain why forgiveness will never happen. I had to go no contact to detox from the person who gave me a STD because no matter what he did I still loved him. I went to my therapist and I asked him to help me stop loving him.

            I came to CN and this gave me the support I never had in my life. I had to set boundaries for myself and my adult children.

            By going no contact and setting boundaries I demonstrate to my children that I demand respect. I will not sit with him or pretend he and I can ever have small talk. This is for life.

            My therapist predicts he will some day come knocking on my door. No he’s not allowed on my property.

            Anger set me free. I no longer have contact with my x or father.

            Mg find a therapist who understands abuse. It sounds like you are truly misguided.

            • You’re welcome Donna. When I read your statement my heart just breaks. It really does. Your story is like mind. We have all this in common. The history of experiencing these monsters with Personality Disorders is just sad. I am so very sorry you had to deal with such evil. I hope you are on the road to recovery. Remember you are mighty!!!!!

              If mg’s statement is true that she has been cheated on and my heart does go out to her also. No one I mean NO ONE should have that type of ABUSE in their lives.

              Yes, we are here to love and support anyone has had this type of abuse happen to them. I agree MG is truly misguided and I’m sure if she has been cheated on she would have more compassion in her heart and soul than what she has expressed on this site. People with Personality Disorders are truly evil. The more I put the pieces of the puzzle together in my life I’m finding them all over in my family as well (Mother and Father and the lovely Step-Mother and her kids and the ex’s family also). The abuse from them also was a nightmare. Only we SURVIVORS of this type of abuse can take it day by day second by second at times to overcome the pain that these evil people cause.

              We have the right to feel and think the way we do. Anger is just an emotion but it is my emotion and when someone says “You shouldn’t feel that way” then that is unacceptable. Then having a statement about “What is the worse event in your life?” and that coming from a chump also. MG, sadly there is many things during your life and my life that we will loose people from death and just generally people coming and going in and out of our lives. However, being cheated on is a behaviour that can be control is NOT a flaw. It is a choice. MG, if what you wrote above works for you then so be it. I don’t mean to pass judgement on that but you passed judgement on us. That is not good at all and as Donna wrote above extremely unacceptable.

              MG, if you have been abused in this matter or any type of matter my heart does go out to you. One thing that is lacking from your statements and maybe it is hard to express is the empathy and compassion. Also remember that people that have been through any form of abuse really don’t need any type of comments such as yours above. We need compassion, we need empathy. The events in your live is important and so is our events in our lives. We must be heard!!!!!! Maybe just maybe it can saved someone that is about to meet one of these people.

              MG, do you want someone in your family or a friend to deal with such life changing pain?

              Sadly many people are not educated about personality disorders and that was me until about 2 years ago. MG, I would highly recommend for you to educate yourself to understand what we have been through. It looks like to me you are lacking true information in this subject.

              I wish you the best of luck MG but your comments on here not good dear not good at all.

              • Donna,

                You’re therapist is correct he will be coming back to contact you in some form. They always do. Typical Personality Disorder relationship cycle. I’m so happy you have set some really great boundaries with the ex. Also it sounds like you have a great therapist that is educated in these Personality Disordered creatures. You are very very very mighty! Don’t take any shit from that thing you call an ex. He doesn’t deserve an after thought!

              • Forgiveness is a spectrum. So I see much of this as a problem with terminology.

                I can highly recommend the book How Can I Forgive You. It deals directly with a spectrum of forgiveness, and the author concludes that the final stage of forgiveness can only be achieved if the betraying party sincerely seeks it from the betrayed party.

                So, for many of us, getting to the first couple of stages of forgiveness is what we aim for as chumps. Nothing wrong with that. And we shouldn’t be judged for not reaching the final stages, especially when those require active participation and genuine remorse from our cheaters, which for the majority here is unlikely to happen because our cheaters are abusive f*cktards. 🙂

          • She’s not a troll.

            She’s is working hard on trying to make her marriage work. Trying to stuff all that shit that happened into the forgiveness shoebox and being able to shove the shoebox in the back of the closet IS the task of the chump. You can’t have a R in a marriage with a cheater with simmering, volcanic anger. Your righteous anger to these creeps must be stuffed away in order to stay and create something new.

            Now, this is not for me. So none of this advice was something I could stomach. My forgiveness lies with forgiving myself ONLY. Somedays it is very difficult to do because this entire abusive experience makes me feel so fucking stupid. I work on forgiving myself to move on. I work on forgiving myself to model better adult behavior for my kids.

            • Beth

              Your post made me cry knowing it does take so much perseverance and daily reminders we are not alone. Thank you for this. I have a great therapist. I do this not only for myself and my children. I do it because of my first had knowledge of the living hell my mother tolerated throughout her life for her children. I was groomed as a caretaker and have memories of her tears since I was four. Mg shares some of the traits I recognize as coping strategies we sometimes use to get by to avoid the pain and I know from my experience this doesn’t work. Facing the pain and getting angry are necessary. Forgiveness allows X and my children to think he’s a good guy, however misguided. He’s evil and toxic. That is the truth. When I happen to see him he repulses me. Pretending for my childrens (adult) and teen aged granddaughters sake is exactly what my mother did and it’s unhealthy.
              Setting FIRM boundaries is what they need to have modeled. I have to be strong for them also as they are also going through the discard, his personality with the mask off, and manipulation attempts.

              • Oh, Donna! I didn’t want to make you cry but I can understand why. When you get what you been through confirmed from a blog site like this with so many people from all over the world confirming what you feel and what you been through confirmed even more. I must say I have cried myself when reading something like that on my end.

                That is correct you are not alone. You will never be alone here. We are here for you.

                I can also understand the hell you had with your mother. Same here. It could be correct what you wrote about MG. It is hard to tell if someone is just trying to play a game when it comes to the internet and even in person with our past experiences with the ex’s and family. For me about MG is her comments to others about judging and other comments. They way she has expressed herself has not been good at all. Only time will tell if she replies again.

                It looks like from what you have written you have some really great insight with your experience and how you look at things. That helps me also to get new insights from others that have dealt with such terrible pain and also helps me in my healing process. I will never forgive or forget what the ex did; however, I am a work in progress in forgiving myself with all the wasted time I have with him. With the information I have gained in the past couple of years has been amazing. I do believe that going NO Contact and having health boundaries just like yours helps us also. We all know their true colours and there is no way he can get that mask back on if I ever see him again. Yes, I fully agree with you that they are evil and extremely toxic.

              • Thank you Donna, and all Chump Nation for your kindness. I can’t tell you how much you are appreciated. Your encouragement and caring has given me comfort this morning.

                Donna, I completely understand what you are a saying. Coming from a family background riddled with cluster “B’s”, inflicts a lot of damage. That damage makes us vulnerable to other toxic personality disordered people. (Yep, in that boat too.)

                Healing that damage is a lifelong process. Our anger can help keep us safe from further abuse, while we are in healing mode.

                Sending you hugs, my dear.

        • I actually, like many chumps, really hoped for reconciliation. I danced, pretzeled, ate shit sandwiches, desperately trying to keep my children from the pain I’ve been in for 7 months. I would have done “most” anything to hold it together…. but my H refused to do any of the work.

          All my dancing, pretzeling, it made no difference. He kept lying.

          He swore he wasn’t seeing the whore- he was.

          He said he wanted to make things work and plan family vacations, time out, etc. He never did it.

          I was more than ready to fix the things wrong with me, and believe me, there is a LONG list… but he was unwilling to #1. Admit what he has done #2. Show any true remorse #3. Show any willingness to really do the hard work. Hell, he can’t even look at me and say he wants the marriage. All he can say is “I don’t know, I go back and forth”.

          So what’s a chump to do? Bury her head in the sand? That was the one thing I couldn’t do.

          • Newchumpatl,

            This^^^^^

            The x told me that he didn’t think I would ever be able to forgive him…forgiveness is difficult when the behavior continues.

            BUT, that was one thing he was right on…I can’t, won’t and don’t plan on ever forgiving him.

          • Newchumpatl, I had the same experience. I begged for counselling, made promises, pretzeled because, despite everything, I wanted to save my marriage and I loved my husband.

            I was willing to accept what he’d done, all the lies, gaslighting, cruelty. All I asked in return was counselling, honesty, and remorse. I was eager to eat the shit sandwich if that was the price to save things. I wanted to move on.

            What I was willing to accept kept shrinking to match the very, very little he was willing to give.

            He slept on the couch, refused counselling, got angry anytime I brought up what happened, told me he didn’t ever want children with me. And that’s the big stuff. There were so many little indignities: ignored birthdays and anniversaries, not calling to see how I was after an out-of-state surgery, telling my dad he’d “think about it” when asked to be a pallbearer for my grandmother.

            This was all during reconciliation.

            Someone once said on this forum that we get to a point where the final indignity is when the cheater forces us to put a bullet in our own marriages. It really sucks but eventually I got to the point where I had to save myself.

          • Probably actually a cheater posing as a chump. “If you just pretend this didn’t happen, I’ll ‘let’ you go shopping!” Posts here as a way to get to the chump- “see, look at this nice one who says reconciliation works and how mean and angry all the other chumps are!”.
            The “I get to spend more money” just seems way more like how a cheater would think than a chump.

          • Trolls initially think they are special as the OW until they notice the roaming eyes at the beach, missed calls. and excuses. Yup it’s all yours. Dream on dream girl lol your with a lying cheat. Funny shit

        • Hi Inlove, apparently if one is a narcissist it’s easy to reconcile, just shop! I don’t think I’ve ever said such a thing before but it sounds like you and your husband really do deserve one another. And Fiona, as usual you get your metaphors all knotted up. Masturbation is not what you think it is…

        • inlove is a proxy server troll (LeaseNet from Ghana). It’s not a real person, it’s a troll. Checking in on my blog late today, usually i delete.

        • Dear (‘inlove’) narcissistic shithead,

          Fuck off with your personality disordered ways.

          Love,
          Lania (and the rest of CN)

        • My marriage is vastly improved since my husband cheated. I spend more money. My husband helps around the house and we spend far more time together and he is more romantic than ever.”

          That’s because every time he fucks you, he’s imagining he’s actually fucking the OW instead. It’s like mental masturbation using your body.

        • I reserve forgiveness for people who seek it and deserve it. I can feel meh about anyone-it means I don’t give a damn about them or their disordered life. And yes, infidelity was one of the worst things that ever happened to me and I am nearing 60… and have experienced a great deal of other sorrow in my life. In fact, I just buried my dad and that wasn’t as painful as the day I learned that my long term marriage was over!

    • Our lives are mirrored. It makes me sick too thinking about my dating future. I am happier alone where I live in a land of “no lies, no manipulation, no trickling truths”. It is a happy place, no timid forest creatures allowed. However, it makes me sad that when I am ready to place one toe out of my bubble I have to be on high alert.

    • “It burns my biscuits when I think about all the lies sprinkled with shards of the truth along the way. I am left over the years with these flashbacks of “ah-ha” moments”.

      Lucky- ^^^ Lol – I love “it burns my biscuits”! ^^^
      – That is going on my fridge…

      Yes, the flashbacks, those ah-ha moments where regardless of what “truth” has been told, come through in memory, dreams, and at the supermarket check out line. Each ah-ha moment while it illuminates the truth, has an equal and new humiliation to go with it. It’s just terrible. Ugh…

      I want the dreams to stop already… I am three months out now living on my own and I realize it is a dark path through to the light but omg, enough already. I know I know, I am too newbie, and it will take time, perhaps a lot of time – each holiday, family event, our routine of the life we shared has vanished and I am at blank slate. I used to pride myself on my independence but I feel sapped of all my strength because of this leaving – this horrible truth.

      I realized that when I was getting “the truth” that it was a partial truth “spin event”. In fact, I really don’t want to know any more –

      There is the last scene In Raiders of the Lost Arc where Indy tells Marion – don’t look at the evil past spirits and it saved their lives. I feel like knowing more could destroy me – and knowing that is perhaps the silver lining in all of this. .

  • Thanks CL. I can almost laugh at this (still going through horrid divorce, so not quite there yet). But it makes me laugh anyway, at how I put myself through all that bullshit on those forums. Yes: the fog, trickle truth, owning our share of the blame for their affair……….. seriously I can’t believe I gave my STBXW so many chances.

    I’ve been separated for 2 years, and 5 years since Dday, and still battling through divorce with my BPD’d psychotic nut case of a STBXW.

    Thanks again for the laugh, Tracy!!!!! It makes me, and I’m certain all who have dumped their cheating Ex, feel good to look back to when we went through “false reconciliation” and can laugh with relief that we escaped.

    • I also gave many chances. It just proves what a quality person you are, Kraft, you wanted to believe the best of her.

      Onward and upward!!! You are mighty!

      • Thanks Newchumpat !! We are mighty. All of us chumps. I, like many here, gave her every chance , and then some. I’ll be sure to post in the forum when divorce is formally done. PD’s are truly flawed people. With anyone remotely nornal, I would have been divorced a long time ago. Wishing you a positive future.

        • Kraft, my W is BP so I know exactly what you mean. A friend has a BP sister and he said that when she was in a manic phase it was like talking to the Devil. I thought of W’s moods as the evil twin coming out when she got into a manic phase. Best wishes.

          • Thanks Chumpguy. I knew way back, my STBXW had psychological issues. Since Dday, and understanding what those issues are, has helped me understand her. But doesn’t make the problem any easier. It doesn’t explain their immoral behaviour and the constant lies!

            • God, I know more about Cluster B’s than I could have ever imagined. They are fascinating and, IMO, way more prevalent than the 2-4% cited. I think 2-4 may be the diagnosed ones , but the vast majority never get a diagnosis.

              • I agree about the quoted statistics about cluster B’s. It’s way too low. The 2-4% are the severe cases , who have been evalued, and the psychologist doing the evaluation has the courage to make the call. Apparently, they’re very sheepish about making a diagnosis. Such is the subjective world of psychology. My thoughts are it isn’t a black and white case of meeting the prescribed number of criteria. If you’re just one short, you’re therefore perfectly normal. If you’ve ever studied statistics, you’d be aware of the bell curve. In large population studies, the low numbers of extreme cases lie at one end or the other. Saints at one end, and genocidal Dictators at the other. The rest of us lie somewhere in the middle. My point is, I would agree, that the percentage of the population where their personality flaws effect others negatively, is much higher than the quoted stats. What we see is the black and white thinking of the psychology profession. Go figure??

              • Same here Arnold and Kraft! I know way to much than I knew when I was with the ex. I agree with you both about the stats not being correct about these evil creatures being way to low. It is amazing how much they all act the same. I’m not sure if there is some type of play book they all have and we don’t. Ever time I read a comment from a chump or the cheater or the AP it is the same general events. I am no way giving them an excuse from this behaviour.

                I have been there and had to deal with the madness that they cause. It was soul breaking the damage he caused and still causing from what I know. I ended up walking away and now have been full NO CONTACT for many years. From what I have seen so far is that the ex has gotten worse with his disorder especially with all the different types of Social Media out there. My heart goes out to every single chump and family member that has to deal with these bad shit crazy creatures. I would not want anyone to deal with these evil shit heads.

                It just amazes me that there is no unique bit of thought with any of them at all. Nothing. It is the same type of behaviour over and over again and all it does for the world and the people around them is nothing. Such destructive behaviour for what gain…..for their own amusement at the end of the day. Such a sad life!

              • Totally agree with the stats on Cluster B’s. I have met way too many throughout the years for the percentage to be so low. I also agree that they are fascinating but I find also very predictable. I have messed with a few in my lifetime and actually enjoyed screwing with them as most are very paranoid and you can pretty much count on them engaging in illegal or criminal activities. “Hoisted by their own petard” plays out quite frequently.

    • Kraft, good to ‘see’ you. Sorry you are still slogging away at the divorce, but this to shall pass.

      • Hi zyx321, Great to “see” you too!! It’s been a while. Yes, it’s dragging on. I once read , that in the distorted mind of a Borderline (narc’s too, most likely) their spouse is just an extension of themselves. So I’m just her right arm (if that makes sense). So finalisation of divorce to her, is like having her right arm removed. I think, at a subconscious level, as long as this drags on , in a weird, sick sort of way, I’m still in her life. I’ve been an amazon junkie, I admit it, and know far too much about these awful people, than I ever wished to know. I hope you’re keeping well 🙂

      • Kraft – sounds like we are (almost) on the same timeline – my dday1 was 5 years ago, almost 2 years separated, but my divorce was final in March. I hope you get done soon and can find some peace. I’ve got kids so the contact will never cease, but it has gotten easier to ignore her when it isn’t strictly about my kids. Best of luck.

        • Thanks Twinsdad ! I appreciate that. You sound as patient as I am. They say patience is a virtue. I think it’s been our enemy. Congrat’s on the divorce. I hope life is treating you well. Yes, I have kids too, so always some degree of contact will have to remain. Thanks for the well wishes.

          • Divorced 8 years now. I have kids with her. I have no problem with the limited contact. Just keep it about the kids. My XW is pretty pathetic and I sort of feel sorry for her.

            • Cheers Arnold!! I’ve become well practiced at being diplomatic with her, whilst holding back my distaste for her publicly. I’ve had plenty of experience at getting the balancing act right. And feeling sorry for them? I can relate. On the one hand, I’m quite certain PD’s are physiologically screwed up from conception. i.e.:they are born with genetic differences so their thought processes aren’t normal and rational. Who’d wan’t to be cursed with that?……….But that doesn’t explain , or excuse them for being immoral arseholes, over and over and over!! So my feeling sorry for her is something i snapped out of a long time ago.

              • Yes, I have been to the Shrink4men site. Not for a long time. Might have to revisit. Needing some inspiration right now to push through this divorce. I must say without bias though, that Chumplady has been the best!

  • Oh I recall those “great” trickle truth years with the EX. NOT!!!!! He is an EX for a reason. I’m sure that is why he and the OW now wife and mother to his kids have a shared Facebook account and other social media accounts. They cannot and will never have trust in their marriage. I wonder how that is working out for them? Ha!!!!!!

  • You know what’s worse? “Trickle truthing.” Can anyone tell me what place this kind of phrase holds in the English language?

    More on topic, a cheater will only admit what he/she thinks you already know. And only in the smallest possible increments.

    • “A cheater will only admit what he/she thinks you already know. And only in the smallest possible increments.”

      This is what chumps need to keep at the top of the list. You can never, never, never accept that a cheater has come clean or that you’ve been told the whole tale. Chumps need to accept this from the very beginning. I don’t care of there’s crying, wailing, self-flagellation, snot bubbles, or any other kind of Seemingly Sorry Apologetic and Regretful Speech. Cheaters are proven liars, and everything must be received through that lens. Shields up, Chumps!

      • So true! I had found so much evidence of cheating in the past and he always bold-faced lied to me and looking back I was so naive to even believe any of it, but I did. Completely trusted and believed him. Real Dday when I realized in my heart that this person that I loved for 10 years was really just a liar and cheater, I confronted him and just said “I know. And it’s done.” He stuttered and stammered and his first question was “How did you find out?”. I refused to tell him and so he confessed to nothing and blamed me. Oh my god, thank goodness I found this site because I now know that was him trying to do damage control. Like “Oh shit, what does she know??!!” because there is a plethora of escapades I have no idea about, I’m sure.

        The hardest part is knowing I have to create my own closure, because I’ll never get it from him. Still trying to figure that out, one month out from Dday.

        • ‘The hardest part is knowing I have to create my own closure, because I’ll never get it from him. Still trying to figure that out, one month out from Dday.’

          Yes – Goddamn – it is hard. Wishing you strength and love surrounding you from real people. One month is absolutely no time at all. Remember: if his mouth is moving – he’s lying. Make that your mantra. It’s a bastard, but it’s the one truth you can hold onto right now. Again, wishing you mighty strength x

        • Sounds familiar. Second time I caught him red-handed and confronted him all I got was a “FUCK YOU”.

          I know this is hard, one month out, but please keep telling yourself over and over that a guy that was the least bit worried about losing you would have shown it within 2 seconds of being busted. You’ve got a long road ahead. Keep your mind clear and don’t cave. The outcome won’t be any different, just further down the road – accompanied by even more heartache and misery.

          Hugs.

  • I got the trickle truth for about four years and I’ve come to accept I will never get the whole story from him.

    I’ve had the experience of getting the whole truth once and the contrast is stark. Where trickle truth makes you feel crazy, the whole truth makes you calm and rational and able to make good decisions because you’re not operating with 1/3 of the details and conjecture. It gives back your power.

    It happened when I reached out to one OW in 2012, four years after their brief affair. She decided to be completely honest with me. She owned up to everything, which was the first confirmation I had of anything other than some kissing and inappropriate emails.

    I wasn’t angry at her – I was so glad she took the risk to be honest. She was a shining example of the whole truth. She answered every question, apologized profusely, took full responsibility, answered every email and call immediately. She never obfuscated or tried to make herself look better. She got into the nitty gritty, puke-worthy details of the sex when I asked. She answered questions like, “who had the condom?” and “did he spend the night?”

    She put it all in writing and never asked me to maintain her privacy. I did, of course, because I was so desperate to have my experience validated and so appreciative of her honesty. It was freeing.

    She had nothing to gain in communicating with me. She was a stupid kid at the time of the affair (she was a 23-year-old intern, he was 38). She just told me I deserved the truth. I hold no ill will toward her and completely forgave her.

    Contrast that with the Asshole, who lied to me for a decade. Or another OW, who called the cops when I sent her an email asking about their relationship (a completely polite and sad email asking to help me put together what happened between them).

    Trickle truth is a bullshit continuation of the power imbalance of cheating. It’s gaslighting at its most extreme.

    • Kudos to that OW. Some of them have a heart. It’s funny my H’s whore is over 40 and she isn’t nearly as mature as that 23 year old intern. Proving this is all about character, not age.

      • I too spoke with his OW over the years as I have access to all his phone records. It was always the same narrative and lies. He told them we were separated and he was filing for divorce. He hasn’t been happy for two years. He suffered horrible abuse at my hand. He never had sex and did EVERYTHING for me. He never met anyone like them in his life. The first one to fuck him won the prize and suddenly he would say we weren’t getting along and move out or stay for the pick me dance. One said she couldn’t imagine anyone as horrible as he described. It worked on #17 and when I ed her initially she sounded Like an old hag. She denied it and I told her I was passing the torch and explained his behavior. He met his mirror image I filed and she continued to harass me and wanted him to get everything. She thought he made money and wanted my pension. I had enough evidence against him and I kept my pension. She also wanted him to get a restraining order on me for no reason. He met his kind and it’s a relief to finally lose the loser.

    • Yes – I too applaud that young intern. I totally get what you mean about how ‘trickle-truthing’ is nothing more than an extension of the power play. I’m closer to meh every day, over everything ‘The Great I Am’ did – but that extended ‘trickle-truthing’ was torture – simple as.

  • In my case, “trickle truth” was just the name for the investigative evidence I uncovered in my heartbreaking role as the marriage police. When the cake-eater was presented with hard copies of days and hours of sexting, he told me that he was helping a coworker deal with the trauma of losing her mother. I guess sending pics of his junk at 2 am was cathartic. It was the OW who eventually spilled the beans and there were at least three others who had regular 6 am “meetings” with my ex. The term “trickle truth” is better used to describe the cheaters overall integrity – what little they might have is buried under the shit pile of subterfuge.

    mgirontree, I don’t know if you are still smoking the hopium pipe, or are a cheater yourself but I think, either way, you should know the truth. I do not disagree that we all have dark areas, but serial cheaters have no light at all. They are living black holes that suck the humanity out of those who love them.

  • You know what else is just lovely? When they apparently told you more than they’d intended to and, at a later time, say “That NEVER happened! What are you talking about?!”

    LOL. Okay.

    • Ahhhh, yes… Trickle Truth’s asshole cousin, Gaslighting!

      It’s funny. I used to get gaslit (?) about things XW DIDN’T tell me. She’d insist, “I know told you that”…when she never did. And I’m not one of those guys who doesn’t pay attention (I’m a chump after all). I think she was having a hard time keeping her double life straight. Maybe she told SOMEBODY, but it sure wasn’t me! What a jerk she was. MEH

      • Asshole Cousin! I still get that! It’s become so bad I tell cheaterpants, “Wait! I need to record our conversation! Ok?”

        PSA: If you do need to tape a conversation because the mindfuckery in dealing with the person is so bad, and mine is very good at Gaslighting, get their permission on tape and then continue recording.

        • Regarding recording conversations: check laws in your state – it is legal to record a conversation you are participating in without other party’s consent where I live. Recording a conversation between 2 parties that doesn’t include you, on the other hand, is a Class 3 Felony. I wish I had recorded all those conversations where I’m left thinking, “WTF just happened?!” Thank you Chump Nation for giving that disturbing feeling where your head is swimming in a pool of confusion a definition: mindfuckery!

        • Unless you live in NM. Only need one person’s permission to tape a conversation. And of course I gave MY permission. This varies state to state, but I got him lying about the 9000$ income tax return he filed jointly, forged my signature and shuttled the money into his secret account. My best friend,when she heard the tape couldn’t believe what a good liar he is. She said if she didn’t know he had taken the money she would have believed every word. I said try living with this kind of lying assclown. He would lie even when the truth would do. Mindfuckery is his specialty. Oh and crying, and acting like I was so mean and unforgiving of his extracurricular activities. Which to this day don’t really know what they all were. That’s a shithole I’d rather not go down. He’s creepy, scary and a total anti-social narc.

          • Hi Irish! Yep, here in Virginia only need my own permission. I recorded Saddam so I could truly hear what he was saying when I was calm. He also admitted to the gun, I should have submitted that to court and gotten him on a charge of perjury for his testimony at the PO hearing

      • Scotty, mine used to always tell me he had already told me that when of course he never had. It was his way of never actually having to give a compliment or own up to the truth. It was all part of his crazy making process. I called him vaguey McVagerson.

    • I saw a text box on STBX’s phone on a DATE over his shoulder with his whore’s name, and he told me “you didn’t see that, you’ve had a lot of wine”. It was just my contact list. Yeah, right!!!

      Amazing. Do you believe me, or your lying eyes?

      • OMG! Similar instances have happened to me where I don’t see or hear things… in early stages it is difficult to put your head around it since you trust and love the asshole. After DDay things have become much clearer. I didn’t hear CheaterPants say to his howorker during a video chat, “Good to see you! Good to see you as always. Yes, you look pretty… yes, I thought you were pretty before when things were strictly professional”. This was DDay for me. I didn’t hear him say she was pretty, he said she was “pretty smart” (trickle truth… took a while for him to admit that much). And he wasn’t on video chat – that is how he speaks to his group in that country and can prove it with emails since they apparently say to each other, “It’s good to see you” in an email?! This is someone who prides himself in being the most logical person on the planet… I told him logic defied the BS he was spewing – he refuses to tell the truth.

        • Mine has never owned up either. I have a plethora of circumstantial evidence. One night, I was in bed and he thought I was asleep ( this is when he was still in the room with me)… I hear him say “Goodnight”.. really soft on the phone… I pretend to be asleep. I see him take off his earphones in the dark.

          I never confronted him… but I know what I saw/heard. There comes a point it doesn’t matter anymore.

      • newchumpatl, I found a journal in which my ex had written out the whole future he was planning for him and OW. He had even been to a lawyer and written a detailed list of how our assets should be split. It was very cold and calculated. When I confronted him he told me I didn’t understand what I read, that it was just an “exercise” and that he’d written an alternate scenario about staying with me. I remember looking at him incredulously and thinking “he’s telling me I don’t understand what I just read.” That’s the first time it hit me like a 2×4 that how I’d been manipulated.

        • “He had even been to a lawyer and written a detailed list of how our assets should be split. It was very cold and calculated.”

          That happen to me too. Ex had already left when I came across his outline of questions for an attorney consult. The stab to my heart was the question, “Other woman, who needs to know right now/?” The dated list was just shy of 2 weeks from DDay. The speed of going to an attorney was shocking as I was the one who outed him on his affair. I wondered (no longer now) if he would have gone to the attorney as long as the affair was still underground.

  • My idiot’s counselor gifted him with the term “reflexive lying.” As in, when I’m feeling cornered, I resort to reflexive lying. There is just so much wrong with that, starting with the fact that he’s a LIAR. You can’t fix these people. They are hard wired this way. The best you can do is get away.

    I have kicked my hopium habit.

  • Let’s put this through the UBS shall we?

    I think he’s having an affair. Perhaps it’s only emotional at this point, but I don’t know.

    Um no, it’s not emotional, it’s an affair.

    Clearly, he’s paralyzed with shame about it, so he’s trickle truth-ing me. Only admitting to the things I have evidence of. It’s driving me CRAZY.

    Paralyzed with shame? More like paralyzed with the fear of no more easy cake and losing both kibble sources.

    I know this is a very difficult time for him, and my questions trigger self-loathing in him, so he can’t spit it all out.

    It’s difficult because he got caught..not because he gives two fucks about you. He’s not spitting it out because he doesn’t want to, not because he’s self loathing. He is trying to self preserve. Self loathing should have stopped him from texting and talking to the Jesus cheater that much. The bible excuse is really over the top.

    But I want to know what happened! I’ve read here that trickle truth goes on for months and I should just be patient while he comes out of the fog. This is killing me!”

    Patient? Ha! Why should you be patient. He’s the one that fucked up. Months? Talk about driving yourself crazy. Only you can get off the crazy train. Lawyer up. Cut your losses.

  • mine was asking the turd if they were having an affair after I found some inappropriate text messages, NO is what he said, he could “talk” to her….(didn’t know I was deaf???)
    THEN I find the naked picture of him that he sent to her along with various emails describing all the sex toys, positions, etc……. so much for “just talking”. Its just a string of lies, anything to keep you in the dark and a chump…… bring on the cake!!!!!

  • No cheese in Cheese Wiz …..No truth… In trickle truth. Wrap it up any ole way u want the spin doctor will have u believing that fucking CheeseWiz is aged cheddar from rare tibetan yaks. Once you buy that first jar… They gotcha. And they will sell it and sell it and sell it. And you buy it buy it buy it. Until on day you read the label…. And u say ‘there aint no Cheese in here! ‘ and you run to the store u go thru all the aisle all the spreadable cheese products ….u have been duped. So you tell the spin doctor… He is a lying sack of dog shit. He grabs his bottle of Cheese Wiz and brings it to Schmoopie house… Tells u… ‘ u never liked Cheese Wiz… But she does.’ …. And ‘ she does care thats its artifical oil based product… She loves my oil based product.’ ‘ my CheeseWiz was never good enough for you…. You fucking lactose intolerant bitch… I got it for u… Because you couldnt eat yaks milk…. You were never happy’
    Ya…. There is no trickle in truth. Its just something else dressed up to look like it.

    • “CheeseWiz is aged cheddar from rare tibetan yaks.”

      Hilarious…thanks for making my morning, Clip!

    • TheClip…I have been reading this thread so carefully, as it is the most comforting discussion since my divorce was final a few weeks ago. I had previously changed my x’s name on my phone to Bill, as in Bill “I did not have sex with that woman” Clinton. He never knew why I started to call him Bill. Since reading your cheeze whiz story (which had me really laughing for the first time in soooo long) I have changed his name on my phone to Bill CheezeWhiz. It sums up my feelings for him as a lying fake. Any time I have to deal with him, from this point on, I will think of this name and just smile before I enter into any interaction with him.

  • trickling the truth is one thing that MOST of them truly enjoy, n’est pas? Ask me how I know. Back in the day and during our very brief counseling sessions, he was lying to our therapist and I remember the smug look on his face like “I know something you don’t na na na na na ” The half truths were so elaborate though, that I wonder now how it’s possible for such boring, original person without an ounce of creativity to make up the shit that he did. Some examples of half truths would be (for our own entertainment):
    – she’s a single mom with two disabled kids and I’m only helping her with rides because she’s also legally blind (the truth is she’s living alone because her husband is working on another coast, she has poor eye sight so the husband is paying for car rides, she’s suppose to be taking a cab!) I never confirmed the fact about the kids but something tells me that aside from the fact that they’ve got whore for a mother, they are fine.
    – she’s being physically abused by her husband so I had to call the police to let them know (the police came to my door to let me know ex was harassing the husband and he filed a restraining order. Yes, ma’am he should stay away from that family. The truth is that assholes were caught by the husband. No respect for the OW’s husband though. He stayed with the whore and even told me that her whoring ways is something he’s used to so all good.

    Ex likes to throw in for good measure that all of his OWs are mentally ill and he was merely doing good Samaritan’s work by helping their domestic situations. You know, bringing in groceries, helping out with the kids, giving them rides. All for no pay. One sick puppy.

    • Yes, this is something they do, too. Pretend that the OW is in a difficult situation, and that they are actually doing good deeds, and we should feel sorry for OW instead of doubting, and we should appreciate her. Why don’t we !
      I struck me how they can be totally devoid of any culpability and empathy for the poor spouse they are betraying, and at the same time be all mellow for OW or potential OW and expect us to feel the same.
      Crazy.

      • Yeah, cheater ex gave me the ILYBINILWY speech and then followed that up with a problem the slut was having . I was supposed to solve her problem and give him an answer to take back to her right then and there.

        I, on the other hand was having a hard time even breathing at that moment, let alone thinking and talking. Thirty seconds after he drops the bomb on D day, and he calls me selfish for not “helping” Schmoopie……asshole!

        He had no clue why I should be so upset….typical.

      • Yes, my ex told me that he was helping the OW with her marriage problems. I guess fucking her was just his way of offering support.

        • X was helping the whore with her arrest for assaulting an elderly gentleman. I think she was helping him in kind by faking orgasms. Cute couple of idiots.

          • And the OW justified the affair they have with stating that she has a soft spot for the unhappy and suicidal (referring to the poor sausage of my STBXhusband) WTF? She was fixing him by fucking him and helping him to destroy his family ? He needs to de-tangle and un-triangulate she told him. Well, I guess his wife and children need to get the hell out of his life so he can get the strings attached to us off. LMAO

    • Exactly. Same here. My STBX slept in her bed every night because of her night terrors (across the hall from me and down the hall from his kids). She was a former babysitter and was supposedly raped in her apt so she couldn’t go back there so I let her stay with us and at the time of the rape she was supposedly told by her doctor that she only had a year to live because of an aneurysm. That was in August 2013. Now it’s July 2015 and we’re getting divorced and I had to get a restraining order keeping him from bringing her into his home. I found a “love letter” from her to him saying how much she liked “riding him” back in March and he said “maybe I was just helping her”. I guess he’s got some magical dick to heal her from the night terrors and aneurysm. All LIES from both of them. Now I just with I could get her to stop texting and trying to be best friends with my kids who are only 5 & 8 years younger than her (my STBX is 49 and she’s 22)

      • Mine was just helping out the prostitutes with college money… lol
        as my cousin says, “What a great guy- out there saving the world one blow job at a time!”

          • Does CL have a post on crazy gaslighting lies? This ^^ would be a good story to kick it off!

            I have one too: the Facebook messages I read about the Wasband being naked with one OW was really her describing a dream she’d had.

            I’m sure everyone here has a few of these!

  • They don’t tell the truth because they know you won’t want then if they do. My entire attitude from Day One was ” If you want to be with some whore, I don’t want to be married to you. ” But they just keep lying so they can have you both. The whores don’t mind being sloppy seconds. They are the insecure ones. Not us. So, on it goes

  • My ex-wife did this the first time she cheated on me while we were still dating. I was a total chump and took her back. Her story was that she had to go back to his house to get some of her things but they ended up having sex. I asked her why, and if she still loved him (like a total chump). She would give very short answers after long periods of silence because she was calculating her lies. I asked if she cheated because she was afraid of him. She said, “Yes I was afraid.” I literally gave her the answer, like a total chump! (From things she told me about him he wasn’t the type that had a lot of respect for women, but I guess that’s why she deserves him)

    Cut to two years later, we’re married and she cheated again with the same guy but this time she took off. Same way of truth trickling. There must be some sort of cheater handbook since they all do the same crap.

    She freely admitted to cheating both times. At first I thought it was her conscience. That seems like a joke now. But now I know she was triangulating and wanted me to compete for her.

    Again, I played the chump for a couple of weeks. But then I woke up and I bowed out. Good riddance! Hope it was worth it.

    • Sounds familiar. Mine had very good lies for each time I caught him. I would bust one method of communication to the whore (breaking no contact over and over), he’d have an excuse (work calls to dubious numbers, on a Saturday night, for example) and he’d shift to another form of communication.

      Never did admit it. Even after there was more than enough evidence for any rational person to think something was going on. He still to this day claims they are “friends”. It’s infuriating.

    • Ugh, I gave my cheater the excuse at first too! “I noticed a lot of texting and picture messages in between you and this other number. Is that work?”. “Yes. I send pictures of data to work”. “OK”. He had me well-trained, I’ll give him that.

      My gut pushed me to look into the phone bill in further detail. Found that same number was on the bill long before he was working, when he was laid off. Oh yeah, and many other unknown numbers. There is only one explanation for an out-of-work person receiving/sending 300+ texts in a day and 30+ picture messages a day.

  • Simple definition of “trickle truth”: Admitting to only what your spouse is able to prove from bits of concrete evidence and not a single thing more.

    • This is so my husband. I have no proof that hes ever had sex with anyone else, but that doesn’t matter. I can’t believe anything he says because he has literally lied in response to every single question I’ve ever asked him regarding porn, secret phones, dating sites, sexting, and soliciting sex online. So…why stop there right? I just can’t prove it yet. Once i present him with proof sure he owns up to it, but THAT’S AS FAR AS IT WENT! Uh huh.

      • My ex said he didn’t have sex with the Owhore but wanted to. Then how come I now have a STD? Maybe he didn’t have sex with this Owhore but he had it with some other one. My meh came in the obgyn’s office as soon as I was diagnosed. All the memories of our 26+ years together suddenly come screeching to a halt with the knowledge that he poisoned not only the marriage but me too.

  • Personally, I didn’t need to know anymore than my “deal breaker” personality disorder: Sex outside of marriage.

    It’s malignant at the get go. I knew I would find a quagmire of deceit and it didn’t matter beyond the initial diagnosis: terminal.

    Hence, with great sadness, I threw the fuckers out post haste.

    Trickle truth or “sin of omission” is hideous. It’s slow torture with a masked hangman.

  • oh wait, I just remembered something (although I probably wish I would keep blocking it out), the next phase after trickle truths is usually… BLAMESHIFTING. I was trying to remember how POS reacted after there was no where else to hide and that’s when most of us get the “but you did x,y,z…”

    • Yep. I also got this every time I expressed honest emotion about my feelings. I’d say something like “you broke my heart” and he’d say “you broke my heart for 20 years- or you made me feel like shit our whole marriage”. He literally never honestly acknowledged my feelings.

      • Mine would always say, “it’s never your fault” or “right, you never did anything wrong” when confronted. His other go to when I’d try to talk was “why are you trying to start a fight?”

        • UGH! I got that constantly! “Oh because you are so perfect” or “Why do you ALWAYS have to do this?”
          Weak Ass Cheaters! Mine still (divorce was final just this week YAY) won’t admit they are together. He says now he has so much “sadness” over losing his family he just doesn’t have time to “focus” on that. Soooo you had all the time in the world to “focus” on the little skank during 9 months of false reconciliations but now that you are divorced you want to pretend?!?! That the tru wuv he fought so hard to keep around!

        • Mine loves “are you trying to start a fight?”
          Does ANYONE have a good response for this?
          Seriously I’d love to have a few.

          • Whenever I wanted to have a CALM discussion regarding what he’d been up to, I always got ‘I don’t want to argue’ as he turned on his heel and walked away.

            My response would always be “I am not asking to argue, I am merely asking for answers”.

            I never got any.

        • When I caught my ex texting a strange woman telling her how she was so beautiful and he HAD to get to know her better, he just refused to respond mostly and when he did he would say, what about you always calling your boss?”

          He always accused me of fucking my ex who I had a work relationship with. No meeting after work, strictly work, phone conversations. He always used that even though he never found any evidence that I was because I was.

          • He didn’t believe you were screwing your boss. He was already making up an “excuse” on the off chance that he got caught.

            • Absolutely! But he always started fights about it. If I wore matching bra and panties under my uniform he would ask me “why are you wearing those to work”. If I got a bikini wax day before work I was prepping my vagina for boss or other random man at work. The crazy part is that I would not question him about anything thinking I was showing him trust and love by example. In retrospect I see I played right into his fuckery. I feel so stupid!

              • Well, you’re in some good company. I can’t believe the amount of shit I put up with and for how long. It’s all pretty clear now, but in the throws of what amounted to emotional torture I’m lucky to not be institutionalized.

                I’ve got enough miles behind me to see that everything happens for a reason, even the bad stuff. Has nothing to do with stupid (although there’s many things I tolerated that I won’t share with the general public, they couldn’t possibly understand the hows and whys).

              • I tolerated so much crap. I believe I was an emotional wreck through much of the relationship and I believe that his torment of me was by design. I know it shouldn’t and doesn’t matter what he thinks, but it bothers me that he hasn’t admitted that he knows that I was faithful to him. It bothers me that he may believe those things about me still. I’m in therapy though! Lol! I have to remember the bad things but it is difficult to remember them strangely enough! For example, I would be getting dressed for work and he would be ranting about how I didn’t want to have sex before I went to work (every morning before work,immediately upon returning and before bed no matter what time he decided to come to bed) because I was fucking at work. He would call me a whore, slut, tramp, nasty bitch. He would criticize my leggings I would wear under my uniform. I am a firefighter and need to have something under my uniform in case I have to change for a fire call. He would throw things at me on the way out of the sort. Nonce I was out and driving to work, the phone calls would start. Back to back calls of more of the same. The calls and texting would last thru my watch. He would demand that I FaceTime him so he could see that I was really at work. He would callin the middle of the night when I was resting along with the rest of the crew between calls and expect me to talk! If I text that I can’t answer because I am in the dorm. People are asleep . He would demand that I get up and leave where I could talk….at 2am. I would return home to more of the same the next morning, and sex of course.

                I won’t bore you with more details but I began to just go “grey rock” during sex. I just didn’t feel good about it having sex with him when he thought I was a slut etc… In the end he said I drove him away because I would just lay there during sex. I feel responsible but at the same time I know better. I’m in therapy. Thanks for listening.

            • He sounds like an incredibly abusive guy. Accusing you of being unfaithful is something he did because he knew it really got to you. A narcissist will find out what bothers you, and use it to constantly torment you. They torment people because they are filled with negative emotions – jealousy, envy, disdain – so that they are always lashing out. They have a pathological need to constantly punish you. Aside from that, keeping you in a constant state of emotional upheavel gives them a sense of control over you.

              Oh….and they want sex all the time, and who the hell wants to have sex with somebody who gets off on making them miserable? Or who makes you feel like a peace of meat? Yeah…I know, sign.me.up!

              I was with a narcissist for about 4 1/2 years. By the time I got out I was a complete basket case. I know how difficult it is to get yourself back, and to get rid of that feeling that you’ve been slimed.

              Keep the faith, and hang in there.

              • Thank you for this^^^^^

                I actually took a screen shot to save your reply. So I can read it when I feel in doubt or embarrassed, or ashamed(guilty). All weird feelings and emotional burdens that I know I should not be carrying. Thank you for this It makes me less crazy, validated.

        • Mine would always say, “it’s never your fault” or “right, you never did anything wrong” when confronted.””

          I got, “Oh yeah, because you’re so perfect and I’m so terrible,” or similar sayings.

          • I would occasionally get bold and say, “I’m not perfect but I certainly didn’t fuck a gaggle of transsexual hookers either.”

            At that point, I was certainly starting a fight. Lol.

            It’s a false equivalency and there’s no winning that battle.

      • Monika

        Your blame shifting comment reminded me that X’s explanation to my daughter as to why he cheated was because I never really got over his previous affairs. Now that would make a great cartoon.

      • I was always countered, it was always a huge competition on his part to put one on top. If I would explain how i was feeling and trying for him to understand, he would say: „And what do you think does that make me feel, when you say or do such and such ? He would never stay with the subject or ever acknowledge my feelings. Blame shifting of it’s finest, he is a real talent.

    • Blame shifting. Yeah, I was covered in it on Dday so thick that I had to wait for it to wear away on its own. Sticky shit that doesn’t slip off when its flung at high speed.

  • I believe this is gas lighting.

    There is a kernel of truth somewhere in there – that makes the lie believable. But it is the emotion used to deliver the lie that makes you question yourself.

    Around Valentines Day, my ExH were living apart because he needed some space to “think”. At this point, I still did his bookkeeping and found a receipt for 2 dozen roses. I received only 1 dozen.

    I pointedly asked “you only gave me one dozen, so really, how can you explain this one?” The retort was quick – like blinking – and venomous. He said “how dare I question him when he did such a nice thing for me?” Then what followed was a looney explanation that the roses were all half dead at the shop and that he had to buy two dozen just to get 12 that looked decent.

    I knew he was lying. I just couldn’t figure out why.

    • There is a kernel of truth somewhere in there – that makes the lie believable. But it is the emotion used to deliver the lie that makes you question yourself.

      Absolutely. All of STBX’s excuses and coverups were always plausible, albeit not likely, but the fact that it was “possible” kept me stuck. Maybe he “is” spending the night with a buddy from work (seriously what 45 year old man has a sleepover with a random work buddy???). Maybe those phone numbers are work contacts (on Saturday evening at 5pm?)… on and on.

      The nugget of possible truth drives you insane, makes you think that you might really be imagining it all and he’s really innocent. Then you feel guilty for thinking so poorly of the person you’ve loved all those years. Couple that with the emotion, as you say, of WANTING so BADLY to believe them. Wanting it to be a big ole misunderstanding.

      A toxic brew.

      • It is maddening, and disorienting in such a toxic way. It took a really long time to recuperate from the effects of the constant mind-fucking alone, forget all the other infidelity trauma bullshit.

        Toxic isn’t a strong enough word!

  • Just attended a counseling session with my 15 year old daughter, who has been staying with me and refusing to go to her mom’s. I love this kid. At 6 years old, when her mom brought the OM in to live with them, claiming he was just a friend and would sleep on the coach, this daughter said ” oh, yeah? Well, let’s put a video camera in your bedroom to see if he goes in at night.”
    Anyway, she has been with me for the last 6 weeks or so, and her mom was beginning to make noises , as I had broached reducing the child support by 1/3 since she now only had the other 2 kids.
    So, we went to counseling and my daughter just kept bringing up examples of the various lies her mom had told throughout the years: The power at their house being off for 5 weeks because the landlord had clipped the line while trimming trees( she owed $1500 to the power company). Mom was taken into custody by the police in front of the kids, and a police woman was left at the house with them because she had been a witness to a car accident and they needed to talk to her ( She had two warrants out for her).
    Her new husband has not driven for 6 months because his car won’t start. ( He lost his license for traffic violations).
    You know, it was fun to watch, and she could not divert things. My daughter was relentless.
    The other two kids know she lies but sweep it under the rug. Not this one.
    Ever read “People of the Lie”, by Peck. ( himself a serial cheater and NPD, apparently). My XW fits this description of a liar. She lies reflexively.

    • I loved The Road Less Traveled and Father of the Lies. Two great books. It saddens me to find out later in life Peck, too, became a cheater and had strained relations with his children.

      Thanks for the update, Arnold.

      Good luck with your daughter. You are the window to the men’s world with her, not her mother’s boyfriend(s) or husband(s).

      15 is a very vulnerable age for a girl. I am sure you are making her welcome in your home. She needs you.

    • My XW fits this description of a liar. She lies reflexively.”

      My ex as well. I like to say he lies as easily as breathing, and almost as often.

    • Sorry to hear that Arnold. I guess the drama never completely goes away when we’ve bred with these idiots. And particularly sad for our children. They’re completely innocent, and are more exposed to ex’s behaviour. Thankfully, your kids have one stable parent.

  • It reminds me of that line from Something’s Gotta Give, when the Jack Nicholson character concedes to telling the Diane Keaton character “some version of the truth”. Her reply has been my mantra for the last few years: “the truth doesn’t have versions”.

  • I have so many examples of my XWs lying, some really absurd stuff, that it boggles my mind that I did not divorce them earlier.

    • I know what you mean, Arnold. But if you are like me, you believed the ridiculous lies at the time. I am embarrassed now at some of the stuff I fell for, but I remind myself that the shame does not belong to me — after all, we all expect our spouses are trustworthy — but with him. Although of course he will never feel a moment of shame or regret. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is that we DID eventually get the hell away from these disordered freaks.

      • I think I knew and did not really believe them, Glad. I just could not face it at the time. When all this was going on in my first marriage, my oldest boy was near death so frequently that I just could not face that my wife was cheating. Just too much to deal with.
        And, I did wise up way quicker in my second marriage and got a PI on it pretty quick.

        • Oh, wow Arnold. I think the only thing that is as bad as cheating on your pregnant wife is cheating on your spouse when your child is fighting for their life. There is just a special kind of narcissist to do that.

  • Oh… I know this one well. X used to even have a name for it whe we were dating and early in the marriage when I still believed that he may do this to OTHER people, but never to me.

    Salting the earth.

    You know. That whole mine owners pepper the fround of a worthless hole inthe ground with a few gold nuggets and the investors say OMG!!! If i can find gold nuggets lying all over the place like this, this mine is going to make me a bazillionaire!! In comed the money…then starts the lies of delays and broken equipment and miners on strike. We need more investor money and of course endless PATIENCE. Really…this is going to be great. Honest. Just a couple more years. Just a few more toys to do the job. No realy. This is for us ALL.

    There were days when he would lie so egregiously about something and i would actuallyhave to put my hand on his arm to stop him with a direct question….”Do you understand who you are talking to?”

    Then he’d realize he was attempting to lie to me about something that I had actually witnessed…he would rarely gaslight, but when caught salting the earth…he would start to tell me a sad story about somethingthat happened to him as a kid.

    I dont think they know the truth. I really dont. I have heard that sociopaths can pass lie dectector tests becauze ghey arer so convinced of their own bullshit.

    And mgirontree? Anybody who lies about bringing another womans bodily fluids home and gets off on the idea that you are right there where she was just hours before….is not flawed. They are sociopaths.

  • X was always lying by omission. Each time I called him on new found evidence he would state, “You didn’t ask me that” and the cloud got darker.

    Their lies become their truth,yet they are lying to themselves, their spouse, children , and the OW/OM.

    Then there is the narrative to go along to support their deviance.

    I’ve been unhappy for two years.
    I had to support her and pay all the bills
    She doesn’t give me affection.

    Cheater think like cheater speak are grounded in manipulation of a whole cast of characters. They have us believing they are remorseful and the whore that she is a dream girl.

    Someone once told me, “You will know when to get a divorce. It will be when you face the truth. You will just know”. What I had to face were the lies X repeatedly used to keep himself in a position of power and control.

    There’s a difference in believing in someone and believing them. The truth I finally had to face was that he never loved me. There would always be another dream girl (whore) willing to accept his narrative of lies.

    I no longer have to live a life of lies and deception she does. Divorcing X was the only way to eliminate the toxic abuse and rebuild my life.

    The best use of evidence is not to “fix” a cheater through marriage counseling. It is so you can believe they are capable of continued deception. Believe them not in them.

    • your story is so much like mine. if i didnt ask, he wouldnt tell. he was Always saying “i told you already, but you never listen to me” when it was really the other way around. he has forgotten all the good things but never forgets any bad thing i did or said. he twisted everything i said to something bad.

      i kind of believe he is not telling his oompa loompa hood rat lies. for one he doesnt need to hide or lie about his drinking or drug use. she does it with him. he doesnt have to hide or lie what he is doing with his money or what he is spending it on because she is ok with him buying stupid shit like stereo systems instead of paying bills. neither of them care about silly things like bills or rent, wter, elec, food. they sponge off people and are living with some ,ousins. she doesnt care if he pays child support or sees his kids, she barely sees her own kids.

      so my guess is that he is truly happier living with her. i could live like that. i was raised with standards, morals and values. me and the boys are better off without his constant gas lighting, lies, anger and trickle truth crazy making. i cant believe i put up with it so long. my mind is clearer now. the boys are happier.

  • Mine told me the ow didn’t work with him was so so age etc I found out she was same age as my son and he was her line manager , but he lied all the ten year we were together , he told me at the beginning that he never knew if his son by his ex was really his as she was cheating on him, he fed this to me and may family for years, from d day I contacted his ex mother of his son and what she told me blow my mind, she never cheated it was him doing that , yes his son was his and he had never told her his concerns . She told me that they use to call him the story teller as he always had a story to tell, he even told her a few years ago we were trying for a baby wtf no we weren’t , thank god . She also told me she use to worry about me over the years as she wondered if he was treating me as badly as he treated her , he lied, cheated and mentally and physically abused her, now this was when he was 20 ish and his now 41. , he never hit me but shows they neve change no matter who they are with , she said she has know him over 20 years and his always been the same , she was surprised we lasted as long as we did , I said I am very good at being a chump that’s how .

  • Way off the subject here, but the Karma has arrived in record time for my ex and Schmoopie! As you all will recall, he left me to deal with his notorious affair, lung cancer, and all the “fun” stuff you have to deal with in a nasty divorce! He then leaves his job and moves in with Schmoopie in May. So yesterday Schmoopie is calling my daughter and son telling them it is “urgent”. Turns out the ex has been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and full blown diabetes. He sleeps constantly, can’t eat and throws up all day. He is scheduled to see a surgeon next Tuesday and was planning on telling his kids then. My take is, he can’t work so she has to pay my alimony and his bills which will grow larger as his Cancer progresses, he’s not fun anymore! He’s a huge liability and a downer! Funny how I had left a message on his phone telling him I just received a letter from the IRS saying pay up or we will start freezing your assets! Sounds to me like little Miss Cheaterpants wants to offload Mr. Not so Sparkly! The whole family is now having a crisis of conscience. What would YOU guys do?

      • Roberta, consult an attorney, I hope you negotiated that he have life insurance that pays you or in a trust to the kids, if not find out if anything can be done. His girlfriend isn’t going to keep paying, and yeah this is cold but I have zero sympathy for your ex. Jedi hugs!

        • Roberta

          I’m not sure how old your children are but I’m sure they must have knowledge of how he discarded his family and left you to battle cancer alone. Perhaps the best way to handle this is through a counselor for your children. As chumps we always have their best interests in mind. As far as the taxes go if you signed with him you may be held responsible. I’m not sure if this is the case. If you did you might want to contact your accountant and file with IRS as an innocent spouse. I’m for showing your children that you are a woman of integrity and support their needs only. You personally owe him nothing. Hugs

        • Dat, yes, I actually did negotiate getting the insurance policies. Thank heavens. Donna, I also negotiated the settlement so that I am not liable for tax debts, but he did not give the IRS his new address so I get all the certified letters! It blows! Someone else asked about pensions and retirement, retired military so I will still get a percentage of his retirement for life. I also negotiated all the investments and IRA’s! He literally has nothing!

          • Also, my kids are all full grown adults. They were the ones who took care of me through my Cancer because when they called their Dad to tell him I had Cancer he told them, “you kids are going to have to handle this. I don’t want to get involved and give her false hope!”

            • WTF!!!!

              I had a little sympathy and now realize it was for the devil. Roberta, whatever you do, is generosity on your part. Even if it means giving him a thought.

              God bless you.

            • Roberta

              Make sure you are also the beneficiary on his pensions when X was going after mine I never listed him as beneficiary. Check into this with your lawyer to be sure you are elligible and named in the event of karma.

              As I recall he paired up with a completely heartless OW. Be sure you are named. Did he marry her?

              • Also check to make sure the premiums are paid up through the date he passes, providing you are the beneficiary.

              • Donna, they are not married. She would lose a lot of money from her ex if they did. I got the insurance ce policies in the divorce, but the stipulation was I have to pay the premiums. I almost cashed them in, but my financial advisor said don’t! So glad I didn’t now! It’s so very sad because it is obvious to everyone BUT my thick headed ex that she is trying to get rid of him. I know she does her homework on CancER because she sent my ex tons of info on my lung cancer and encouraged him to not worry about it because either way she would “win”! She’s a real “prize” I’m telling you! I too have been reading up on pancreatic cancer and the Whipple procedure, sounds like she’s in for a real fun time! I wonder how she feels about her “win” now?

            • Roberta

              For all they did to you Roberta, and the strength and courage it took for you to get through it all, you are mighty. Remember to take care of yourself!!

            • Hearing their take on your cancer diagnosis just makes their Karma all the more sweeter! Wow, just wow. Careful she doesn’t try unload him back onto you……..
              So glad you have all those ducks in a row Roberta.

              • Lynne, I believe that is exactly what she wants to do, to send him back because he’s “broken” like some merchandise she bought at a discount! But my ex obviously doesn’t get it! If he makes it alive for 5 more miserable years then she will be the same age I was when these two idiots blew up my life!

    • Omg,
      Roberta, you are strong. Fast forward many decades and I will be in your shoes. I bet you kept that individual going with health in his navel, marrow in his bones, strength in his loins and in his sinews and power that he never acknowledged.
      xoxo

    • My daughter said something recently which she had apparently told Turdy McCheaterpants during a discussion of why she would NEVER come around him and his past(wh)or(e). She explained to him that he (as well as the whore) made certain decisions (to enter into an affair, not to be there for the birth of her first child, etc.). She explained to him that he was entitled to make decisions and choices and she was NOT ANGRY about the decisions and choices that he had made. However, there are consequences attached to the choices that you make and you have to own those consequences (or not, if people don’t choose to hold you accountable or you don’t have the ability to perceive them as consequences). She explained to him that her choices regarding their relationship and how she planned to handle it going forward was one of those consequences of his decisions and choices.

      Your EX and his Schmoopie-Whore made choices and decisions. They gleefully plotted scenarios regarding their life together, many of which hinged on your hoped-for demise (WTF! Who does that shit and isn’t featured on Dateline or Discovery ID?!). Neither of them showed the slightest bit of care or concern regarding your physical health, feelings, suffering, possible death OR even your continued existence – or the anguish of your adult children during an extremely difficult time. It appears that the consequences of their choices and decisions have arrived in a chaffeur-driven, stretch limousine.

      While I am not an advocate of revenge or of not having compassion, I am definitely a believer in having to deal with earned consequences. At this point, you owe him nothing. As is so often expressed here, he fired you from the job of caring about him or his problems. You and his children owe Schmoopie-Whore less than nothing. She wanted him – she’s got him. She needs to handle her mess. I would suggest you think long and hard regarding what is comfortable for and best for Roberta. Sometimes we show compassion for others simply because that’s who we are and not because it is what they deserve. Your decision should honor you and your children, not him and Schmoopie-Whore.

      Good luck and bless you and your children Roberta.

      • You are divorced, right? Not your problem. How old are the children? He is living with the whore. He is her problem. Is there an inpatient hospice facility where he lives? If schmoopie kicks him out and he truly has pancreatic cancer, he will live less than a year and inpatient hospice can care for him, make sure he is comfortable and the kids can visit him if they want. then no one has to worry about his care. If he really has cancer he can also have hospice in his home, but that leaves the significant other/and or family to care for him 24/7. I know this as I am a nurse and also did work for 2 years in the Hospice field and my mother was on hospice at the end of her life. Of course I took off work to care for her 24/7 the last 3 weeks of her life. This is how I know so much about it. Does he have family, other than the kids? Then maybe they need to step up to the plate. But since we all know how much they lie, make sure he has cancer before making any choices that could negatively impact you Roberta. God Bless you kids, this is tough if it is real. But it will be quick, unfortunately there is no cure for pancreatic cancer. Hugs and hope this helps.

        • Thank you Chumpguy. Sometimes I think she may have been born that way, though. She has always (as well as my other children) been my total joy.

    • Roberta, I know you must have mixed feelings about this and I know your kids are hurting. Even though it might be sweet karma, I know there is pain too.

      I am with Chump Princess, you owe him nothing. I would do whatever you need to do to support your KIDS..but he’s on his own otherwise.

      He and Schmoopie made their bed, let them lie in it. And I hope you or your kids are still beneficiaries on his life insurance.

    • I guess my only concern for you is the alimony payment. Are they married? Will his death result in you receiving a pension or other monies? Not being nosy but it would seem that the payments will cease. Can’t get blood from a stone, but hey other than that, good news! He’ll linger for some time, granted not a great way to spend your final months or possibly years and she’s stuck with him! Changing his diapers will kinda take the bloom off the rose. I wonder if either of them will reflect on how they were so looking forward to your demise and here you are still standing strong. I said it in the other post, I just love a good ending.

    • If he has pancreatic cancer, then he will probably have a surgery called a Whipple procedure. Believe me, that surgery is the ultimate karma. You just sit back, he’s paying his dues, believe me.

      • He’s Glad, my sister is a nurse in oncology and she told me this morning that he is going to suffer horribly and he is basically a dead man walking! Her advice was to just turn my back on him and let the bitch who tortured me have him. Thank you all for your advice. I guess the saying, “you reap what you sow” is true.

          • Einstein, he has been finally living with her for less than 2 months before this Cancer was discovered. I told him in May when he came to get his crap out of the house I now own that I didn’t give it 6 months before the relationship would fall apart and that cheater relationships never end well. Also told him that I hoped he and Schmoopie would get everything they deserve. Guess it happened, but I am sad for my kids and grandkids. They know he’s a asshole and all he did! I never could have known it would be so terrible!

            • I agree it is sad for your children and grandchildren. X hurt my adult children so much by discarding all of them. We never know what the future will bring us. For all the happiness they think they are getting it’s always colored with pain and disappointment for their children.

            • The difference between us and cheaters is that we never really enjoy seeing people pay such a huge price, even when they have it coming.

              I feel for your situation. I’m not sure how I’d handle it, even after years of indifference.

    • Did not answer your question in my other post. What would I do? Nothing much, really not your problem. Do not let anyone make you feel guilty to have contact with him or help him in anyway. Please keep in mind that any help or concern you show will never really be appreciated. Nor will a light bulb go off in his head of how bad he treated you and what a fool he was, won’t happen.

    • Follow what the IRS letter states. He is not your problem anymore. Done! Do not contact him let the system take care of the issues. If he owes you back pay then get it. REPEAT after me…..HE IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM!!!!!! Just remember all of the pain he has caused you and your family. HE IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Let the legal system sort it out for you! HE IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM!!!!!!

    • OMG – Pancreatic cancer? With those 2 ailments – I can only assume he is a drinker because I’m confused as to how my stbx hasn’t contracted either of them. Yet. Ummmm – I did make him get a physical a little over a year ago and IS pre-diabetic. He probably IS full-blown diabetic by now.
      Congrats Roberta :-). Let your kids know (pancreatic cancer is a death sentence) to start making the funeral arrangements NOW.
      Karma is a good woman. I like her….

    • Not your circus. Not your monkeys.

      Repeat ad infinitum. 😀

      Karma is a beeyotch… fortunately it’s no longer your problem. Be there emotionally for your kids, but take on no other aspects of the problem. When he walked out on you, he gave up any need for you to ever be concerned about him again.

  • Disordered people always do the trickle truth in all situations, not just cheating. They are like icebergs…. what you see on the surface is only a small portion of the entire reality. Cheaters/disordered will only reveal what you already know, or they think you are about to find out.

    When I think back on all the bad stuff I KNOW my ex did, and then consider that I only know a very small portion of the whole, it makes my head spin. Still, a chump doesn’t need to know all of it… it’s enough to know you are married to a cheater. The full range of details doesn’t matter so much.

    • Completely agree with this.

      Catching your spouse in a heinous lie is justification enough to kick them to the curb. Trickle truth regarding an affair is already past the deal breaking stage, imho.

  • The RIC definitely has its own language:

    1. Trickle Truth= lies by omission or half-truths.

    2. Exposure = telling people the truth, but doing it to try and create a particular outcome which necessitates all sorts of convoluted mental gymnastics regarding just who should know the truth and who should not, and when and how to tell them the truth down to precise letter-writing formats. It’s just the truth. How hard is it to tell the truth if you don’t go down the rabbit hole?

    3. Fog = a mythical state in which users, abusers, and philanderers of varying stripes are allegedly rendered unable to reason at all. Also known as projection… because it’s about you creating a fog of denial rather than accept the hard truth about the terrible circumstances you find yourself in and the character of your partner.

    4. The 180: This is the opposite of another silly thing that people say: “Be yourself”. You have no choice but to be yourself, but the 180 says that’s exactly what you should be doing right now. It’s also known here by the term “Pick me dance”. Pick me dance is a lot more accurate, IMO.

    5. Temperature checking: this is what betrayed spouses apparently do when they ask their cheating spouses questions. The RIC says you don’t want to do this unless it is with a trained “save the marriage at any cost” therapist, or preferably an unlicensed coach who will charge you 100s of dollars for consultations. About the only part of “resist the urge to temperature check” that is true is this: you already know exactly all you need to know: your spouse cheated. Asking 40 questions a day and trying to find a rational explanation for why they did that other than “They weren’t thinking about you or they didn’t care about you in the fleeting seconds when they did remember they were married, and they wanted to do it. They wanted it, they did it, they didn’t tell you because cake.

    etc, etc.

      • “Trust but verify.” It’s as if they’re kids or captives. If I ever partner up again it will be with someone who WANTS to be there.

        • Exactly. Shortly after D-day my ex actually handed his phone to me (I had never asked and only looked twice, both times to find the incriminating evidence). He said I should check his messages which would prove something. Ha. I almost did but that’s when the flash of reality hit that I was not going to spend my life questioning his faithfulness or my own sanity.

          In my view, when trust is gone, there is nothing left and no way to redeem it.

      • “Trust but verify” is an oxymoron. Trust means there is no cause or reason to verify because implicit in trust is belief. To tell me to verify means constantly checking what someone is telling me or what they’re doing and that is not trust. This is why RIC advice is crazy-making.

  • I see trickle truth as a form of verbal diarrhea. What comes out of a cheater’s mouth is like a wet fart, known as a Shart.

    What helped me deal with my cheater ex-wife with her trickle truth Sharting was the image of a talking gassy anus face. blah…blah.brrrrraaaapffffstttsssthooonkffffffplsssstbeeeeeppoooooftavaatrrrrrewstankbpppptufff.

  • I hadn’t gone on any of the Reconciliation sites, but obviously the phrase ‘trickle-truth’ had hit me by osmosis somehow. Pretty much as you describe it CL, everything I discovered or questioned was ‘excused as innocent’ until his lies just couldn’t stand against logic (and, believe me, he tried his level best to get it past the ‘logic’ gate, but had to re-invent when I simply wouldn’t swallow the inconsistencies). I coined ‘trickle-truth’ myself in the face of things like ‘no’, ‘it was just office banter’. ‘I think she got the wrong idea’. ‘it was just a kiss’, ‘it was just the one fuck’ et al.

    Despite literally begging him to just come clean already, he simply refused to man up. In my opinion the ‘trickle-truth’ was the biggest mindfuck of it all. I honestly felt I was being ambushed at every turn. I just couldn’t stop being a logical, rational human being and the crap he was feeding me made NO SENSE whatsoever. I guess what he wanted me to do was believe the shite he insulted my intelligence with, but I just couldn’t do it. I’d be standing in the garden and some huge inconsistency with what he’d said then and what he was saying now would suddenly leap out at me from the bushes it felt like!

  • I am thinking that mgirontree is a cheater him/her self. BTW cheating and all the mind games that come with it is not a “flaw”. It is a choice! It is a decision and not a mistake. If you want to do single things then don’t be in a relationship stay single. Don’t place me in risk of health issues and play mental games with me. This is not a game it is real life with real life consequences.

  • Roberta, there are people who would have no problem telling Jesus they’re gluten-intolerant vegetarians, so they would like a light salad instead of loaves and fishes. If they actually were given a salad, they would consider it only what they deserved. No gratitude, no appreciation.

    What would I do? I guess I’d say “oh, that’s too bad.” Otherwise, I would probably not do anything. As others have said many times–not my circus, not my monkey.

  • I tend to call “trickle-truth” and “versions” of the truth by a much shorter name – bullshit.

    • Are you calling bullshit on trickle truth? What’s wrong with you? Don’t you know those poor cheaters are in a fog and the only thing they can find in there are sexual organs? Gotta give em a break until they come out a the fog, it should only take a couple years….

      • Well, see . . . they are “delusional”. They can’t be expected to tell EVERYTHING! That’s like, I stole money from you . . . was it 5 bucks or 100?

        It’s ok. It doesn’t really matter. I don’t need to know the details. The cheater is scared! Poor thing . . . I forgive.

        (Clouds part and the angels start singing . . . )

          • Well you don’t want to scare those poor wittle cheaters further off into their fog, they might see an angel and never find their way out. I wish I had a cartoon for what is in my head right now.

      • I went to a pro reconciliation support group once and a guy there told me to EXPECT it to take two YEARS for H to come clean. And 6 solid months of NC before that clock even STARTS. So if he keeps breaking NC with whore ever few weeks.. how long does this string out?

        Further, you can’t MAKE someone break contact, they have to do it on their own. Which of course calls into question why they did it in the first place, shitty character. Shitty integrity. It always comes back to that.

        Thus the problem with reconciliation.. it has to come from the heart, and so many cheaters show so little empathy for their spouses, where is that love going to come from? If they had that love, wouldn’t that have kept their feet on the floor? Or kept them from texting/sexting/talking on the phone to some whore?

        I felt so sorry for this guy, his wife is a serial cheater, he’s the parole officer, he works (she doesn’t), does all the cooking, all the housework, all the child rearing, one child special needs, and lives like this. In perpetual fear and angst she’ll do it again.

        I really really feel for him. I hope one day he breaks free. He’s a decent man.

        • When we are in these relationships it is so hard to internalize the truth of what CL makes us understand – the extreme pain it takes to leave these freaks of nature is finite – it will end. If you stay with them it is painful and soul destroying. If he doesn’t leave her, one day she will probably leave him. This is just so sad.

      • Tessie – best explanation ever. For some reason, I didn’t want to hear much. I already knew enough for it to be a deal-breaker, but he insisted on telling me details. I was in shock/denial, or something, and really didn’t want to hear any of it and just sat listening to him pour it out. It haunts me to this day. Was he getting a thrill out of reliving what he did with her in my house? In my motorhome, and other insidious activities? He didn’t seem to notice the pain on my face, I guess, or didn’t care. He seemed SO ‘relieved’ every time he told me something new, out of the blue.

        Death by a thousand cuts is definitely what I’d call this.

        • Shechump

          X also enjoyed describing the details. He got pleasure out of the retelling. When I come here I am often reminded just how fucking sick he is. God I hate that creepy asshole.

  • The lying..I discovered after dday that h was a smoker for 20 years. He apparently stops on his way to work to smoke and at work. Not the biggest deal in light of all his whoring around but really even that?! No he didnt tell me I saw him. Howorker sent him naked pics of herself. He saved them on a flash drive. He spent about 15 minutes looking for the drive outside. That was fun watching. Then another couple days later ..oh there might have been some naked pictures She sent me. I like most chumps only know the tip of the iceberg. Imagine if we knew everything. We’d be outta there like our house was on fire!!

    .

    • Blackmail! You could potentially make her do anything – how much is she willing to pay for you not to make those public? 😀
      What a dumbarse. LOL.

  • “Trickle truth” is a synonym for “endless lies”. Anyone who expects the truth from a cheater is in for even more hurt and disappointment.

  • Mine never admitted anything. He was Mr. “Situational Ethics”. Depending on the situation was what the “truth” was.(But was proud that he “always told his daughter the truth”….uh, yeah, not). Too bad I ignored the RED BANNER WAVING that he could/would lie when or if he choose. Silly Chump I am.

    • You aren’t silly, just too trusting WhatAChump2015, older, wiser and cheater free is the way to be. Jedi Hugs!

  • I spent about 6 years and maybe $8k on false reconciliation. Looking back there were red flags that it was false but I fell for the “timid” act, believing the lie of toxic shame. When I used money from his 401k to pay for his “sex addiction” treatment he flew into a terrible rage. And he constantly claimed to have a “lack of clarity” about himself. BTW, he apparently ordered a new debit card and it showed up here today instead of at his new address. Guess what’s going in the shredder?

  • SPOT ON as always CL. Lie their asses off until you shove the undeniable truth in their face…. and then…. and ONLY then will they maybe, kind of, admit to anything… briefly… while they concoct a way to shift the blame to YOU. Assholes!! Always lying…..

  • My Cheaterpants rewrote our married history….to justify his betrayal….I think for many cheaters this is how the lying starts… They tell themselves the lies so long that they believe them, and then they expect you to believe their lies as well…

  • They will keep lying and hiding money – put them in a position to do it before the court. Some states do have fault grounds for divorce. I recently had STBXH of 12 years served with a divorce complaint and written discovery – requests for production of documents and questions to answer under oath. He was divorced once before, but had no idea that in a divorce he might have to answer hard questions about his finances or his cheating. Apparently, he had bamboozled his first wife into a voluntary separation and settlement agreement. She did OK, although I recently learned from my adult stepdaughter that X was a serial cheater on her mom, but she would not divorce him for adultery. (And wanted to stay with him regardless!)

    H thought he could get out of this by trying to cut a verbal deal with me. Good start, but nobody settles a civil matter without knowing what their X has and what they are settling. He said, you just want pay stubs, right? He works for a foreign company, so no, I want a financial statement. Then the rage, threats and bullying began, “You are trying to change our agreement. I’m going to say you misused your company credit card in 2008. (Huh? I didn’t.)” When you see that, you know there’s more you’ve got to try to find out. Don’t give in just to “get it over with.” That’s what they want. A friend did that – stay at home mom, married 23 years, settled with her cheating X for one year of alimony. She did it to get generous child support, which her X then stopped paying. While taking his son out on his new boat.

  • Mgirontree –

    I know I am chiming in at the end, but I want to say I get your “forgiveness” in order to move on. This action is very, very personal to the person who forgives. In no way should others be shamed to follow any more than if it were ones ideology, religion or political belief.

    You did it for yourself. People can take it or leave it.

    I sincerely wish you peace.

    My 2 cents.

  • Excellent, CL!!!!

    I too have struggled with his lies, lies, and more lies most of all— even now. He’s been out of the house since May, and for the most part, we are no contact.

    The more I sit here and stew, the angrier I become…. I know, move on…but it’s his lies that piss me off the most. However, he was ALWAYS a liar!!! Always, right from the beginning of our relationship, but I overlooked it stupidly.

    The divorce petition should be ready this week…all of his lies are going to cost him big time!!!

    FUCK. HIM.

  • Whatever you call it, being lied to, repeatedly, sucked.

    What sucked more, however, was slowwwwwly realizing that my wife depends on lying as a problem-solving tool. Let me say that again: The person that I CHOSE TO SPEND MY LIFE WITH uses lying as a problem-solving tool.

    Ugh!

    My ex-wife didn’t change after I filed for divorce. She selectively lied her way through it. I saw her for the first time in a year a few weeks ago. She lied in that conversation.

    She’s a liar. That’s what cheaters are. They can’t change. They don’t know how. And they don’t want to.

  • I can’t say my cheater ex was always a liar: he didn’t talk much. I guess this is why I projected so many qualities upon him. But now he feels powerful due to his success with lovelies of Russia, so he tends to talk more, and it isn’t charming. I am so disappointed.

    • CFF, my ex wasn’t much of a talker either and I know now that I did project so many of my qualities onto him. In fact towards the end he did say to me that not everyone had my standards. I was puzzled by that comment but I didn’t know that it was leading to the end, more the fool me!! He is 63 years old and is living with a 23 year old and her 2 boys in Phnom Penh. If it wasn’t her it would be another Khmer girl and I mean girl. Apparently he is as happy as a pig in sh*t which is where he belongs. Disappointment does’t even cover it with me.

      • I bet. This is wrong on so many aspects. One of them is old men who want to feel like the ultimate stud because they can get as much ass as they want in impoverished areas of the world. We have a saying, “À vaincre sans péril, on triomphe sans gloire”, when there is no risk there is no glory; it works for underage third-world girls, Russian lovelies, young African brides. And to everyone in the US or Europe, they are old fools.

  • I think the horror of who they really are is more than they can bear. They cannot look at their failed lives and account for their behavior so they just continue the facade hoping nobody will notice. Rage when you do.

    I looked the other way until I didn’t. He didn’t change, I did. That is when everything started to unravel. When I stopped looking the other way.

    One thing I have learned the hard way, that I have always done in business, is not to look the other way and call the transgressor on their bullshit, immediately. Narcs run from this and I find I don’t have to do it with decent people. Why? They don’t have a need for smoke and mirrors.

    Arrgggg….59 and figuring it out.

    • CJ, you are not on your own. I am 63 and still figuring it out after a wasted life time with my ex. Onward and upward now as I have made my 1st appointment with a therapist after trying to struggle through on my own. I feel better just having made the appointment.

      • Maree and CJ, I’m sad to be in the same club as you are, 51 and figuring it out, spent 25 years with my creep.

    • Thanks for sharing that Lola, I related to the woman telling the story. It helps to know others have had the same experience, doesn’t it?

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