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The “I Fail to Understand Your Hostility” Mindfuck

mindfuckchannelBWThere is no mindfuck like the I Fail to Understand Your Hostility mindfuck. As mindfucks go, it’s Jedi-level mindfuckery. Oh sure your lesser manipulator can sputter some pathetic lies, or shrug and play dumb. The IFTUYH mindfucker, however, is one cool customer. Zero adaptive anxiety. Your inchoate rage just bounces off their wall of smug. This crazy don’t break.

So what is the IFTUYH mindfuck? Here’s an example.

Chump: I know you’ve been cheating on me with Bobby. I saw the text messages. And your dating profiles. And my genitals have oozing sores. And I’ve been monogamous for 20 years.

IFTUYH: I fail to understand your hostility.

Chump: I SAID, I KNOW YOU’RE CHEATING ON ME! WHAT PART OF THAT DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND YOU SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER?!

IFTUYH: You know I’d really like to talk about this, but I don’t think it would be productive right now with your overreactions. Let’s just wait until you can be civil.

Chump: Civil?! You BROKE MY HEART! (Sobs… falls to ground…) How COULD YOU?

IFTUYH: How could I? I can’t help what errant toilet seats you sit on. I’m sorry you have festering pustules. You really should look into that. How can you expect me to be attracted to someone with oozing sores? It pains me to say it, but your personal hygiene really disgusts me. But now that you know how I feel, you can set to making that right. Why don’t you go take a hot, soapy shower?

Chump: AIIIIIGGGGGGHHHH!!!! (Sob. Snuffle. Snot.)

IFTUYH: Bobby always smells nice.

Chump: I KNOW YOU’RE CHEATING ON ME WITH BOBBY!

IFTUYH: I’m not going to stand for your vile accusations. This is so typical of you. I’m not going to deign to respond to that or resort to name calling.

Chump: (In a raging fury, flails at IFTUYH…) YOU ASSHOLE! YOU CHEATING SCUMBAG! QUIT LYING TO ME!

IFTUYH: I’m just glad that one of us can be civil.

****

Chumps, never speak truth to stupid. If a cheater fails to understand your hostility? Don’t try and explain it to them. This isn’t an insight problem, you’re being manipulated.

Chumps love to tilt at the mindfuck windmill, armed with reason and evidence, and their broken hearts. Surely THIS should matter to you? Right? Right?

You will achieve no consensus here. No comfort. Just more mindfuckery. The only way to respond to I Fail to Understand Your Hostility is to walk away. Refuse to engage. Unleash the consequences.

In my book, in the chapter Stupid Shit Cheaters Say, my response to this one is: “You fail to understand my hostility? Let your lawyer explain it to you. He bills in 6-minute increments. Hope you’re a quick study.”

 

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • After divorce it became “I’ll be glad when things settle down and become normal.” Me not talking to you, updating you on family matters, no family pictures, no text, nothing but no contact. That is our new normal.

    • Mine told me she wanted to have regular “family catchups” to stay in touch and “see what happens” (ie she can keep her options open, keep tabs on me and keep up the appearance of a happy family). About an hour later I found her latest sexting messages with her Fuckbuddy. That was the end of the family. FULL. STOP.

      • Those “family catchups” or circling back is exactly as you described, just another tool to keep you as a backup plan and or image management. I didn’t divorce him so that we could be friends. Thats ow job, a stable of hopefuls that he can flutter around as he desires.

      • Trigger for me…for years, mine would call me his “fuckbuddy” and for some reason I thought it was a cute/funny? thing to say after 25 years…I recently saw a website called fuckbuddy and realize that’s where he got the term. I hate him for that now. Now I see how disrespectful it was, a private joke between the asshole and his private porn addiction.

        • Mine used to sing “Maybe I’m Amazed” by Paul McCartney and I thought “how sweet!” until he muttered some things under his breath that I heard. Use your imagination at how those lyrics could be changed and there you have it! There are certain songs I hate now and this is at the top of that list.

          • Mine used to play ‘Everyday I love you less and less’ at me.

            Until he got caught with OW and rushed to push the forward button when it came on.

            Ugh, not worth thinking about. I never deserved to be treated like that.

            • Holy Crud Batman! Haggar the Whoreable used to love playing John Legends song “All of Me” as this was our song until Ankles was in the spotlight along with BDSM broad. Then he couldn’t stand to have the song play, even when his daughter was right there loving the song and wanted to sing along. I finally can listen to the song again and remember that his mask slid the day he mentioned he had “situational ethics”. Didn’t know what that meant at the time, but sure did at Dday.

              • I found a notebook from a retreat we went to where Gaslighter had written “I take the path of least resistance even if it’s the least ethical option”.

                Kinda says it all.

              • Ditto to the John Legend song: it was his ‘song’ with one of his whores; I would cry whenever I heard it, and he knew why and would just smirk. I knew I was healing when, just a few weeks ago, I watched Greek Wedding 2 and could actually listen to the song, all the way through.

          • Because I was in hospital for our 10th wedding anniversary due to a breakdown, cheater made a point following how I had hindered his celebration plans and that for our 20th I would need to make it up to him by singing Shania Twains “your still the one” to him in front of all our friends.

            instead 3 months short of what would have been our 20th he sang to his new victim an adaptation of Wrecking Ball by Mylie Siras at their wedding. LOL these guys are freaks

            • I am sorry Thankful, but the picture you created in my head made me laugh out loud at the vision of him singing that song at his wedding. Love how all these cheaters are so revisionist – the past is but an inconsequential blur, but THIS – this is twoo luv. What a peach.

              • I will say, I can see the looks from the crowd as he’s singing that song. That had to be a pretty humiliating moment.

    • I get this now! He says “it will be good after the divorce, nothing much will change and everything can get back to normal”.
      Just beggars belief. But it is such a shocking thing to say I am so stunned I can’t formulate any kind of reply in under half an hour, so he just assumes I agree.

      • Let him assume what he wants. Refuse to give him centrality. Cheaters don’t deserve it. Just focus on surviving, and your stunned self will take baby steps forward. Healing is done without them.

        • “Healing is done without them.” Thanks for this … it’s an easy phrase to say to myself … I needed to hear this. I got him out of the house and my inbox, I just have to get him out of my mind.

          • Those who promote healing together after infidelity perhaps miss the whole point that long term deception is not an accident or one single mistake like a one night stand that happened during heavy intoxication. Long term deception infers that these people lied and deceived their family everyday for a prolonged period of time. Having suffered betrayal by my husband of 14 years and being in therapy (failed) for 3 months, i can attest that “healing must be done without them”. if you try to heal with them, they will further destroy your sanity – whatever is left after experiencing betrayal and PTSD in the first few days or months.

      • I was actually the one to say “I think we will be able to remain good friends when this is all done. … Here, sign this!” HA HA HA Yes, he bought it and signed a nice settlement! He was quite surprised when no contact suddenly swooped in and bit him in the ass. Because he thought the notion of us being buddies was perfectly reasonable. His mom and I are still on very nice terms … drives him crazy and makes it really difficult to sell me as a horrible person.

        • First year folloing d’day the cheaters extended family in part were nice, but wanted to stay separate from all the crap. Three years on and following cheater getting married last march, now they are over all the shit. They treat me with respect and pitty the new victim. Those who are willing to think independanly, look at him and wonder how long the new marriage will last.
          Cheater is gay, narcissictic and a super spiro. He uses and abuses people depending on what they can provide for him and if they disapoint they are soon on the out including his family who were all played off aginst each other in preparation for christmas, when the extended family realised what he was doing they worked around him for the sake of the kids. Even then cheater could not leave me out of it and claimed to his family that they needed to get on with things as I was demanding he reterned the children early. Until our kids chimed in and set everyone straight. I am not the bitch he keeps trying to make me out as and his family knows it. Unfortunatly my exMIL will never be able to meet me with respect as the mother her grandchildren because unfortuantly my cheater going to live with her when I put him out has broken her.

        • “Friends” = Plan B.

          FUCKTARD: I put put a deposit on a condo around the corner (from the house you found and worked your ass off renovating and landscaping for twelve years) for you. We can be friends. Maybe we can marry again someday.

          ME: Bite me.

          FUCKTARD: Why are you so hostile?

          • That sucks! X looked for houses to buy with Skanky across the street from me. He didn’t want to pay child support.

            I would have waited until they moved in and then moved as far away as possible. The neighbors would have shunned them until the end of time.

          • Wow, Survivor. Just wow. Why are you so hostile?! That’s the kind of comment that would stick in my craw for YEARS. I pray for meh for you.

            My ex is the consummate Mr. Rogers, so painfully non-confrontational and false that it sends my anger into the stratosphere. He doesn’t get mad. He just blinks with a blank look on his face. It’s his go-to move. He cannot fathom why cheating on me with a stripper and moving to the opposite coast (and subsequently not raising our 1 and 2 year old babies with me) could make me act so UNPLEASANT. At first, I mean sure. But time has passed and shit. Can’t I just get over it already? Doesn’t the passage of time somehow make this all ok? Not that he’d say any of that. His lets his ridiculous blinking say it for him.

            I don’t even yell or curse, I just lob sarcasm bombs at him. He can’t even handle that. But I’m going to stop all that, because I’m finally seeing that I’m wasting my mental energy on the most futile of endeavors. CL is right. It’s not that he doesn’t get it, it’s his own personal brand of mindfuckery. Best to you!

            • This is what dealing with my ex was like. A great actor and Sparkley as hell until it came to the discard. He married AP, so there’s a new vacancy of course!

            • Not to worry. By then, I knew why I was hostile. I took a job transfer and moved away. The Fucktard moved his student into my home and expected her to handle all the shit he’d delegated to me for so many years. Two years after the ink was dry on our divorce, he was back in divorce court because the new replacement part didn’t work out for him. Then he wanted me back. No response necessary or given. The asshat had the good sense to die an exceedingly slow, painful and lonely death. I heard after that by then he’d worn out his welcome with most everyone; even his family couldn’t tolerate the sight of him. He’d lost his tenured professorship due to misconduct, and his federal research grants followed when his drug use got out of control. Sometimes what goes around comes around. Karma can be a bitch.

              Looking back, I dodged a cannonball equipped with a flamethrower mounted on a missile.

              • He armed himself with weapons of mass destruction…and all he could manage to target & anihilate was himself?!?

                BUH-WA-HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

                Perfectly happy ending to that story! Glad as hell you dodged that train wreck looking for a place to happen, Survivor! Well done YOU!

              • Looking back, I dodged a cannonball equipped with a flamethrower mounted on a missile.- This comment made my day. Lets hope this happens to me as well.

                I am a new chump who was still putting energy into “healing after an affair” for 3+ months in painful therapy sessions till my unfaithful spouse got physical with me. The coward fled without informing me or our children, the moment he found out that i had filed a domestic violence police report. He then blamed me for filing the report… no apology…just blame. I guess that opened my chump eyes to reality

            • I am so tired of “just get over it already” or “let’s focus on the present, not the past” or “that’s all in the past now” really? So I guess it makes it ok since it happened a year ago, no matter that it blew up tow 27 year marriages when you and the Whore decided to be together. Fucktard.

              • There’s no time limit on healing that huge gaping hole where your heart used to reside. Take your time, and work thru it at your own pace, New Me. It’ll happen when you’re ready.

                Those folks who tell you to “get over it” are truly not your friends and they don’t deserve to have marvelous You in their lives. Move on and seek out new friends who don’t judge you and truly have your best interest at heart. True friends love you, no matter what.

                Keep moving towards the MEH. You’ll get there when you’re damned good & ready…and when you arrive, we’ll all be there from the CN to greet you with open arms and an open bottle of champagne to celebrate your MEH-ness!!

                Sending you hugs, healing prayers and lots of love…

              • An unfaithful spouse saying “get over it” is just another way of saying that we should stop bothering him about what happened and not hold him accountable to make corrections in their current behavior. A truly remorseful spouse will recognize the hurt they have caused and will bend backwards to make it up to you because they know that what is lost “Trust and respect” was priceless. while i believe there are cases where couples can heal, they are far and very few ! most long term cheaters are adept and now habituated to manipulation and deception. Do not trust their words, judge their actions ! My unfaithful spouse had trouble updating his facebook profile with a family picture even after repeated reminders….that is how much he was willing to bend for the family after deceiving us for more than a year.

        • Dixie, you are mighty! I was just talking to my lawyer about this – mostly that I can’t bring myself to play nice even though I know feeding his ego now would help my settlement. I still have great difficulty with being civil.

        • Good for you Dixie for outsmarting the idiot. I would have done the same but I couldn’t stand the sight of him lol

        • I did that too @Dixie Chump. lmao. It worked like a charm. I’m getting everything I want out of the divorce. I can’t imagine why he fell for it. He really wanted to use me to stay close to my family. But my family doesn’t want anything to do with him. He was crushed when he realized that I and my family don’t want to be his friend. lol

      • Cap, it’s very frustrating to be unable to come back with a cutting sarcastic retort of the calibre we see on CN until a good half hour later!!! But silence will leave them having to fill the blanks or just listen to their own slow clapping.
        As for us, the trick is to get rid of the conversations in our heads…I haven’t found it yet.
        As CL says, they don’t care what we say, how much we try to reason and make them see what is wrong anyway.

      • “I am so stunned I can’t formulate any kind of reply in under half an hour, so he just assumes I agree.”

        DONT REPLY AT ALL. Not to shit like that. Once you get used to it, you realize that not replying does not = agreement

      • Capricorn!!!! Mine says the same thing! Oh my god! What kind of DNA was used to create them?

        He now pretends that this is the best decision that could be taken under the circumstances. The divorce is now his baby.

        My mom is visiting with me now and his mom who lives nearby is in the full mode of trying to convince my mom to pursuade me out of the divorce route. Her argument? Lots of money wasted on lawyers. She is advocating to stay married on paper but live separate lives. A nice modern and forward thinking family I married into. Ha!

  • Another example of the over-arching cheater strategy of, “The problem isn’t my conduct, but your response.” Also dove-tails nicely with the common cheater narratives of, “Faithful spouse is mean to me” and “Some of us have evolved beyond hurtful and unsophisticated notions of monogamy and hostility.” The web in which you’re caught is all-encompassing and self-tightening the longer and harder you struggle.

    As with any rigged game, you only win by refusing to play.

    • Yup, Nomar. Best to disengage.

      “Calm down, JC!” Ex said. “We can’t talk if you’re going to be so angry.” This was two weeks after I left her for good. She said she wanted to meet to talk. That meeting turned out to be her both (a) asking for another chance, which I denied, and (b) arguing that “lawyers told” her I’d owe her all sorts of money if we got divorced.

      I got all riled up, of course.

      But after a minute, I realized that this was a pointless conversation. I got up and walked away. I didn’t physically see her again for 6 months, and I was much more in control by then.

      Don’t engage. It’s a waste of time and your emotional energy, both of which you need to reserve for the task at hand.

      • How thoughtful. She cheats without your consent, lies and keeps cheating after she’s caught, and then tries to extort you into more pick-me dancing via financial threat. Thr entitlement and centrality boggles the mind. Well done refusing to engage further after that stunt.

    • Minimalization is just one more arrow in their quiver of “avoid responsibility at any costs.” It is positioned right next to blameshifting.

  • This is my husband to a T. If I got upsetbwith or strongly disagreed about anything (he’s a Peter Pan so it was frequently about fairness/distribution of household work and his bar habit), it became a discussion about how out of control my emotions are. He’d actually call “time outs” for days of no contact so he could feel safe.

    … In marriage counseling, he told the therapist he is afraid of me because of my “anger” (BTW, he’s 6’4″ and I’m 5’3″). And he simply cannot deal with all of my emotions.

    • Mine said the same thing – and our height difference is about the same, and he is burly and I’m fairly slight. He also stated that there was no way he could tell me the truth (ever, apparently) because he was “afraid” of me. My Badass knows no bounds, I guess.

      • Love that! I spent a long time in the chump fog trying to fix my “anger issues.”

        ….Should have just embraced my bad-assery. 🙂

        • My ex suggested that I go to the doctor to have my hormones checked out. He even offered to go with me. It’s funny how none of my family or friends have seen the same craziness from me that he accused me of.

            • Ooooooh yes, my ex liked to call them my “emotional outbursts.” He complained about them after D-day and frequently stated he didn’t know how we could have a “productive” conversation. Newsflash-there is no way to have a productive conversation with a cheating, lying, d-bag.

              He also tried to once tell me he didn’t have my anger or vindictive attitude. I was so incredulous and exhausted, that I actually broke down laughing before I started the feelings of rage set-in.

              • Sorry for my grammatical mistakes/slightly nonsensical sentence. Blerg and typing on the phone don’t mix.

              • Blerg… he didn’t have your anger or vindictive attitude because he has the emotional depth of a puddle. Normal people have normal responses.

              • When I laughed at the shit he spewed instead of being (mildly) angry, that was also an issue because I “sniggered” and didn’t respect his feelings.
                Basically, they can do and say whatever they want and we are not supposed to express any feelings or opinions about it, anger, hurt, mirth, not allowed for us chumps.I told him he wanted a robot scullery maid not a woman, and started askiing him when he wanted me to go into the broom cupboard to plug in for my recharge until I was needed again. He didn’t like that either…

              • My cheater did not like it when I began to laugh because it was a clue that I was no longer going to bang my head against a wall trying to fix his shit. He would go from blank “your not the boss of me” stare to nasty petulant 3 year old in 30 seconds flat.

          • Cricket, I told mine the same thing. “Gee…how interesting! this is the first time I’ve ever been heard mention of crazy with my name attached. It takes quite a lot for me to yell, and everyone who knows me knows that I have a LOT of patience” So f-ck off now.

          • After I had a hysterectomy X would say, “I thought you’d be nicer after your surgery.”
            Another remark he’d made was, “have you taken your hormone meds?”
            One of my favorites was, “everyone likes me, I get along with everyone but you.”
            or “I”m seriously concerned about your mental health.”

    • Oh, I had one like that! He was 6 feet and morbidly obese. I’m 5’5″. But according to his lawyer, he was “afraid to have me in the house”, I was so angry.

      Right after D-Day he gave me the “I want to save our marriage but you have to be less angry. How can you expect me to want to reconcile if you’re going to be so angry?” OMFG, and I thought it was my problem, that anger. Too bad I didn’t find Chumplady till some months later.

      He didn’t much like the photos of his whores playing with themselves that I posted up all over the house, either. Apparently it made him uncomfortable to look at them… which is strange since he took them all with his own camera, and I found hundreds when I investigated his hard drive.

      And of course he tried to threaten me legally for breaking into his computer. I was already ready for that one. I was a director of our joint company, and it was a company owned computer. My lawyer advised me that it would be prudent of me to both back it up and check those contents to make sure he wasn’t embezzling from the company, so I did.

      Damn shame I didn’t live in a no fault state where I could use all that evidence for something more productive than making him feel a little uncomfortable.

      • While purging the house before handing it over, I replaced the totally skanky naked-asian-women-screensaver slideshow on Fucktard’s computer with kittens. Just to let him know I’d gained access to his office and broken his passcode and seen all the crap he was hiding there. He didn’t say a word (who can complain about kittens without sounding like a fool?)

        • On DDay I discovered a dialogue of texts between Haggar the Whoreable and Ankles. In the email that outed him that I knew (but only the tip of the iceberg at the time), that I sent to his office outlining his exorcism from our lives, I mentioned a comment about her cat that they were discussing that was eaten by coyotes that was in the messages and said how sorry I was for the cat. He disappeared without a word.

        • Survivor, kittens are adorable.
          How marvelous a change for screensaver.
          He didnt say a word because in some way by using kittens it reads to me, “Cats out of the bag.”
          Found all your pussy! Lol

          • I was so hoping for some threat having to do with my invasion of his privacy by replacing his porn with fluffy little kittens, but even he must have seen that wouldn’t gain much traction in court.

    • Oh yes. I got this too. “You are not safe for me” “I can’t be honest because I’m afraid of you”.

      • I don’t want to attempt to untangle the skein here, but I really don’t get how they would think anyone believes that excuse. In talking to our MC individually, she shared how ridiculous she found it, especially when he could not name anything that WOULD make him feel safe if changed.

      • They are afraid of us because THEY know the full story of what all they did and they know that if WE ever knew every bit of it, they would have good cause for fear. It is pre-emptive fear on their part and probably wise as well.

        • Very insightful, Dixie Chump. I definitely get a fear of consequences vibe from my cheater. It makes sense that he might try to get out ahead of the narrative with some character assassination.

      • I got “you are the scariest person in my life” screamed at me while I sat in a chair talking calmly as he hysterically cried and shouted… I just reminded him of the giant hole he punched in our bedroom wall during one of his hissy fits…. Who’s the scary fucker?

    • Same here, the slightest sign of frustration on my part would shut down any discussion, as he would walk away and say, “You are way too angry about this, you need to calm down.” Over the years I was basically trained never to exhibit even the slightest bit of anger if I wanted to discuss any problems with him.

      Until after Dday, when I showed him what actual anger looks like (about a 4 on a scale of 1 to 10, still pretty lame). Then I became a crazy person with out-of-control rages that he couldn’t interact with at all because the slightest thing would set me off. Another page from the playbook.

      • Yep, after D-Day I was hitting him with some verbal zingers, and he shut it down by saying, “I think this is one of those conversations that we should only have when we are in Marriage Counselling when there is a third party to keep you from getting abusive.” Because my anger was also a problem for him, (especially when I called him out on his shit, and he didn’t want to get into that).

    • I got the in afraid of you comment too. He’s 6’7″ and I’m 5’4″. When he said that I went “You’re afraid of me?? Look at us!” and he went “Well not physically”. Since I don’t think I ever actually yelled at him during the whole separating process he was apparently afraid that I would cry if he told me. Grown man can’t handle a crying woman…

    • Exactly the same scenario for me in MC. slightly smaller difference in height but he weighs more than twice as much as I do and used to benchpress 150kg easily. He could break my neck with one hand easily…So when I laughed at that he switched to I was trying to poison him…

    • I find it strange that they are so afraid of us…… If this has been the case in our marriages, then wouldn’t/shouldn’t their fear of us , stopped them from having an affair in the first place.
      Surely our “anger issues” would have made them think twice !!!

      • GREAT point. I just can’t believe that they think anyone buys that excuse. I know I am not always an easy person to live with (I can own to be critical, and will work on that in the future) … but this excuse is simply absurd. Avoidance to the extreme.

        • People do buy that excuse, especially counsellors who feel for victims, but they get the victim wrong. The traitor has convince every counsellor and psychologist he has seen since his first marriage that he was being abused. By 3 women, including the whore he has gone back to.

          • Yeah, I have noticed that being the “good guy” in the narrative is important to mine. And I fault our counselor a lot for not being tough on him or holding him accountable for his lies, manipulations and blatant lack of trying. Clearly, though, his emotional pain at my abuse was SO OVERWHELMING he could not even, you know, anything. 🙂

  • “I have no no idea what you’re talking about.”
    That one line was the only recognition I ever got…once.
    The rest was complete silence since D-day 6 years ago.
    One fucked-up (but thought he was very cool) guy.

    • “I have know idea what you are talking about” is how I identified that my ex is now cheating on his new wife, and still no-one is willing to step in and stop the ongoing lies.

    • Wow. Your record beats mine. All I got was “she’s just a friend” 3 years ago. These cheaters are a real piece of * Don’t engage is right on advice.

  • I’m always looking for new names to call him in my Contacts (I can’t go NC due to the kids). I’ll be updating it today to SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER! lol 🙂

    One of my wishes for my ex-SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER is that one day something happens to him that he experiences all the trauma, rage, depression, mind-fuckery and WTF just happened? feelings that I felt for close to two years. And all his “friends” will say to him, “IFTUYH.” And then label him as “crazy.”

    My ex-SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER is so calm, he’d easily pass a polygraph. So it’s going to take something quite traumatic to get a rise out of him. Toddler daughter missing at a crowded beach in NJ — no reaction. Bear chasing us down a path in Glacier National Park — he’s got his phone out videotaping the bear chasing us (memo to SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER: bears can kill you). Driving too fast in a white-out. He slammed into the back of a car ahead of us that was driving slow because of the white-out. No reaction. Narc smirked it off. He wasn’t too blame according to him. Driver driving safely because of said white-out was to blame. I’m not sure what would cause the SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER to react like a normal human being under stressful or traumatic times.

    I had him served at work, because I didn’t want him served in front of the kids at home. One of my friends said to me, “He’s going to be so mad! Tell me what he says when he gets home from work.” I told her that it wouldn’t bother him in the least. He’d smirk it off as no big deal and not mention it at all when he got home from work.” I wasn’t there when he got served, but he didn’t mention it all. No reaction from SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER. When you know someone. You know someone. And I now know he’s a SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER!

    Sorry I’m a bit off-topic, but you had me at SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER! lol 🙂

    • The only thing my ex seemed to care about when he decided to leave me was the settlement. He was obsessed with keeping as much as he could.
      Kids hate you….who cares. Ex wife hates you….who cares.
      He had his mom and his girlfriend in his corner and that’s all he needed.
      He would melt down though at the thought of losing “the stuff”.
      We started calling him chicken little in my phone because when it came to the $, the sky was always falling.
      Now that he’s gained like 70lbs we call him the chicken pot pie and he’s labeled as such in my phone.
      It’s the little things like his contact photo of a chicken, in a pot, and that pot has the pi sign in it that brings me joy….

      • my cheater cared more about his stuff than the marriage or the family.

        three days after our daughter was diagnosed with cancer, a month after D’day. I was on the phone to the asshole wanting to know why he had not been to see our older two children who had been with the church elders the entire time, his response ” I didn’t think you would let me” how the fuck could I have stopped him I was at the hospital. In the same conversation, he demanded access to our family home when I asked why? he went on to say he wanted his stuff, his push bike, his matchbox car collection (that was in a box in the garage) shit that was of very little importance considering what was happening in our lives. Stopping him from accessing our family home was the best decision I ever made because if I had let him back in I would never have gotten him out again. Possession is everything to him.

        Martha,
        you’re not alone, mine was just like yours. Cheater at the time of his affair began to terrorize the family down the street by throwing rocks on their tin roof late at night. The husband happened to be our son’s cricket coach. I was gutted the day he approached me and asked me to get my husband to stop or he would have no choice but to call the police. I remember the day I confronted my husband with this, he acted like a child court sneaking a cookie. It was no big deal to him and could not understand why I would be upset over it. I demanded that he apologize to the family and I got a sullen agreement but I now doubt he ever did.

        • Thankful – I think I was married to Your X’s twin. I get “I have to go through you” all the time when it comes to my 2 older kids. Ummm…yes, I want to know when any plans are being made with them since I am the one who manages the calendar for EVERYONE, but they each have phones. I do not stand in the way of him asking the kids to do things or say no unless there is a conflict or he has been drinking. The fact is that he wants to pop over to the house to visit for 1-2 hours a week rather than actually make plans with them (dinner, movie, bowling, anything??).

          He also, sent me a text telling me to get my attorney’s ass moving and that the divorce was taking too long. Ummm…you could meet with your attorney and put together a proposal, too. And did I mention that he sent this while I was sitting in the hospital with my baby for 4 days after a seizure? Yeah…I am the one who wanted out of the marriage and blew up our family, but let me do all the legal legwork.

          The best was when he kept texting me about needing his Christmas ornaments. He took them last spring with all the other stuff I put in the garage for him. He couldn’t find them so he started accusing me of throwing them out or purposely keeping them from him. This started right after I spent another 5 1/2 days in the hospital with the baby, 3 of which were in ICU with her on a ventilator. Ummm…let me get right on searching the house for some ornaments that I know he already took. Because those ornaments are important.

          • GMF,
            I am lost for words and that does not often happen, WTF? you are in the hospital and he is having a tantrum over Christmas ornaments. I do hope your baby is ok. I get the unevenness of it all, while I juggled my daughter’s chemo treatment my cheater was having a relationship with another man and coming to the hospital acting like I should bow at knee every time he entered the room. The stupid shit insisted on having within months/ weeks of our separation, things like his matchbox car collection, which were taken out of their box and put in a purposely bought glass cabinate, in his mother’s apartment. He married another woman last March but the cars are still in the cabinet at his mother’s not in the home he shares with his new wife. But he needed to have them.
            They are all children at heart.

            • It is especially priceless when they start texting the AP while sitting in their child’s hospital room with their wife in the room, too. I just don’t get how that doesn’t cause an uproar in their gut. The only answer is that they are devoid of souls.

              • Oh yeah, they are empty. The day our Daughter completed her Chemo and got to ring the bell in the oncology clinic cheater was there. He wasn’t there the day she was diagnosed, he wasn’t there when she had to sit through hours, days, months of IV treatment, he wasn’t there in the middle of the night when I had to rush her to the emergency room with a high temp and a rapid heart beat. But he was there on bell ringing day and posted it to facebook tagging his new victim as if she too had been there. Now he implies that he had walked every step with her.

              • Get me Free and Thankful,

                How dads or moms act when their kids are sick show you exactly who they really are. I had something similar happen to me, not at bad as yours, but he was showing me who he was and what he valued.

                I’m convinced to this day my ex had an affair when I was pregnant with our second child. He was mean, cold and verbally abusive to me. He was also in Canada probably getting “the works” from the 100% naked strippers. When she was less than a year old, she came down with a horrible flu. I couldn’t get her to nurse or eat. She would just lay in my lap. On day five I think, my doctor said to take her to Children’s Hospital. This hospital is in a big downtown. I don’t like driving downtown. I asked my husband to take me and the kids. He said he “had to go back to work!” It was like 7:00 or 8:00 at night! My ex is a businessman. He works during the day. But his new job (he got fired from the previous one, probably due to his relationship with the ho-worker) he “had to” work two days a week until 11:00pm. Yeah, 8:00am to 11:00pm! Looking back I’m sure those were date nights with office whore. So…..going to “work” was more important than his infant daughters health. He expected me to take her and our one year old son downtown all by myself at night! That night he showed me how much he didn’t love me, our son and our daughter. He loved his work/whore more! Cheaters suck!

      • Paintwidow
        Chicken pot pi. OMG. My face is hurting from laughing already. I have mine in my phone as ‘spouse’. I see I have been seriously uncreative. ???

      • Paintwindow, why do you think CPP gained 70lbs? Because I have theory…some SOCIOPATHIC narcs really are holding on to their con by a thread. They have to lie to sooo many different people – stay ahead of the game, that I think it gets stressful (haha says the gal with the diagnosed PTSD!) I have hardcopy(his own emails) of him discussing sleeping with men, women, AND exposing himself in public. (Now you know why I have PTSD!) he knows I know and knows I have the emails. So what does he look like now? Well this “silver fox” looks like… you know when you buy some beef and forget it in the fridge and you find it later and it’s that ugly gray color? THATs what he looks like. To me it looks like he’s rotting from the inside out. Not because he’s remorseful about his behaviors, but because he has been truly exposed/caught — and can’t let his new chump find out. I love that he has to sleep with one eye open and look over his shoulder! Maybe my rotten fridge meat hangs with your chicken pot pi?!

        • All I can say it the traitor has put on at least 20 kg (50 pounds) since he left, he looks a good 10 years older than his age too. I do believe they are rotting from the inside. I started noticing the rot after DDay 2, and I used to think I was witnessing the Picture of Dorian Gray changing in front of my eyes. Degenerate behaviour (no character, lies, wallowing in the sewage of their whores) shows on the outside. When he was with the whore first time around for 6 years, he also looked like shit, I’ve seen photos, he looked like he aged 20 years in 6 after he left his first wife for her (but I didn’t know the real story). I also think the whore has always deliberately fattened him because she is a cheater used to cheaters and she knows she can’t trust him, so she wants to make him less attractive to other whores, and more of a physical match to her degenerate ugly self.
          They showed up at his brother’s for NYD and SIL couldn’t believe how ugly she is and that he cheated with that and left me for that. She also noticed how badly his son behaves when he is with them, he used to be really well behaved with me.
          Rot on the inside, rot on the outside, and it’s catching.

        • I unexpectedly saw a picture of once very handsome Gaslighter on my son’s Instagram account when I was looking at photos from our vacation. My son was with him a few days after his 67th birthday and Gaslighter looked like he hadn’t shaved in days. Either he’s growing a beard or he’s going downhill fast. I prefer to think the latter…

      • I will never look at chicken pot pie the same! I will envision a fat, entitled cheater smirking just under the crust! Hehe!

      • Ha ha! Yes, that same little thing made me happy too…I have a picture of a red raging Henry Rollins from the Liar video as his contact picture. Used to have his name as “A Liar” but decided to change it to just his phone number since the kids might see it. I figure the impersonal nature of just numbers is appropriate too.

      • My ex was “Fucking Liar Sociopath” in my phone for years. These days, he’s not even in my phone. Life moves on to bigger and better things.

      • Mine is Punk Ass Bitch. What I called him when I found out. He liked to think of himself as the “baddest man on the planet,” so this label really got to him.

      • Chicken pot pie — LOL!! 🙂 Yes, it is the little things that can bring joy. Like finding a new name to call him. The first name I ever called him to his face was “Assbrain.” It’s still fits. lol 🙂

    • Martha!!!
      ???
      I wish in real life they could have floating subtitles over their head like in a tv show. It would just be so funny to see him walking around with SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER over his head. You’ve got me at it now. ???

      • My ex would have “perverted sicko” above his head. Oh how I would love to see that floating subtitle above the ex’s head or ‘predator’. Either suits him perfectly. 🙂

              • Thank you! Not quite rid of him, fighting over relationship property and it will be a long drawn out battle, I know him… But I don’t have to live with him and serve him and his whore anymore…No more picking his undies up off the laundry floor every day because Mr Super Cricket Bowler lobs them into the laundry basket every night and deliberately misses so I’ll have to pick them up! Not a team player…

      • In my phone, my son has put the extended middle finger emoji next to his father’s name in the contacts. My girls are currently with their father for our summer holidays and I decided to call him to talk to them. While driving through speaker Siri announces ” calling cheater middle finger extended.” I thought my friend sitting in the passenger seat was going to wet her pants she giggled so hard

      • LOL, Capricorn. 🙂 I love your idea! I wish I had a remote to change the floating subtitles about his head. I could then change who he was for that day. lol. Besides my brother who used to tease me so I had to call him names like “Butt Head.” I’ve never called a person a bad name ever! My ex—- I’ve called him every name in the book and I’ve even made up names. At one point his name in my contacts was about ten names, because I couldn’t pick one! 🙂

    • Martha, I think you got the sociopathic motherfucker thing exactly right on. From what I’ve read about these disordered personalities, specfically narcissists, they rarely get nervous, scared, or anxious. I noticed that with my x over the years–he’d have to go on a business trip to get called on the carpet by clients for some product failure, no nerves whatsoever. He’d have to make a big presentation, no nerves. He’d be golfing with strangers in a tournament, no nerves. He’d have to travel to South America or Australia on business alone, no nerves. I’m in labor having a baby, no nerves. Losing traction on a snowy highway in front of a semi, no nerves. The only time I ever saw him look like he was anxious as hell was when our son got married last summer and he had to face me at the wedding for the first time in over a year! He was afraid of ME!

      • My ex is actually diagnosed with NPD. He had absolutely no fear or anxiety in any situation that I ever saw. He can come up with a lie or excuse instantly, and is very skilled at endless mindfuckery and manipulation. He also trained in neuro linguistic programming, which made him even better at manipulating others.

        • Through therapy and very detailed questionnaires about “His Traits” I learned that my Gaslighter is an “Antisocial Pathological Narcissist – by a landslide. I used to admire him for his cool head. Now I know he can pathologically lie, cheat, con, steal from partners, and testify in court without batting an eye. How the F bleep bleep bleep do we divorce these disordered men knowing that they won’t play fair?

          • We lay low, we observe no contact, we get the best divorce lawyers we can afford, we take the goods, and we run!

          • Chump Change,

            We were married to same man. Couldn’t keep his dick in his pants or his hands out of the till. Forensic accountants rock! I have a protective clause in my JOD in case the IRS ever audits him…

      • Yay, you, champchump for scaring your ex!!!!

        GladIt’sOver, you are lucky you got a diagnosis. I went to four different therapists for financial and insurance reason. They all said he sounded like a narc from the stories I told. When therapists scrunch their face at you or have a pained something isn’t right with this guy — they kept convincing me that he had some serious issues. So I went on mission and devoured as much as I could about narcs and narc abuse. Who would have known these people existed?!

        ChumpChange, sounds like we were married to the same person. I too admired how he could keep calm and cool in every situation. The first time it really disturbed me was when our daughter went missing at the beach. There was something just so wrong in how he acted.

    • My ex is the same way. He actually told me that he couldn’t feel emotions when we were dating (naive 19 year old me somehow did not see that as a red flag). I thought that since he was going to therapy every week it was something he was working on and increasing his ability to process emotions. Nope, just lying to his therapist to the tune of $140/wk paid out of my paycheck.

      He never showed nerves or got angry or sad about anything. He would slide across icy cliffs and then call me ridiculous for being afraid of winter hiking. He’s a teacher and would go into every lesson with no plan and just wing it. No emotion on our wedding day or when he proposed. That is until people started implying he was a bad person after he came out with the cheating and said he was leaving, totally blindsiding me. Then he would cry or fight back or say he was “so wracked with guilt I couldn’t even enjoy Star Wars!” It’s all about appearances with these guys.

      • ClaireM, Isn’t it sad we aren’t taught about red flags? In school we are taught everything under the sun, but how to pick a good partner or things to look out for. We just have to figure it out on our own.. And if you come from a really dysfunctional family you are even more screwed, because lots of times healthy relationship were never modeled for us. I was doomed from the start, but at least now I’m learning!

        My narc had no emotion on our wedding day or when he proposed. I could kick myself til this day. This is how he proposed. We went out for dinner. It was fine. Nothing romantic, but decent food. We then went out to the car and as I was getting in the car, he shoved the ring in my face. Didn’t get down on one knee. I’m not even sure if he asked me to marry him. It was the most unromantic day of my life. I should have run for the hills! He was showing me who he was! And yeah, my ex was all sad sausage for himself after he asked for a divorce because he “wanted to be with someone who trust him 100%. And I couldn’t give him what he wanted. 100% trust.” Well, that’s not true. I 100% trust that he sucks. That’s a lot of trust!

  • This!!!!!!!
    “Paintwidow……I’ve told you I’m sorry it didn’t work. You need to just move on. You clearly are still hung up on me or you wouldn’t care so much. I’m sorry you can’t get on with your life and be happy like I am”
    Yup…..that happened.

    • Mine said, “I hope you find happiness like I have.” This came right after the stepdad of his young girlfriend came to my house to threaten me with ruining STBX’s career if I didn’t get my husband away from his stepdaughter.

      I then told him that I would be happy if he would go away. I then added that he no longer added any value to my or the kids’ lives. All he does is add shit that we have to deal with.

      • GMF, oh so the stepdad found it necessary to ask a chump to do something about the young thing?
        Once again, ask a chump to FIX it.
        Surprised stepdad didnt go directly to your EX! Wow
        My Ex is with a girl 30 yrs younger than him. Two years younger thN my DD.
        Those two have a kid too: hence, grandpadaddy.
        Not sure if “predator” met scumbalinas parents! ?

      • See GetMeFree? I think Stepdaddy had it right. That’s the way it’s supposed to work: the family provides moral support to the daughters so that they don’t become immoral.

        Now Stepdaddy needs to go look up Married Man, and kick his ass. That’s the right thing to do.

        More men should be looking over their son’s and daughter’s lives, ready to intervene and protect them from predators. (Of course also hold them accountable for their own shitty behavior.)

    • Mine said “I truly believed we could have had a wonderful relationship but unfortunately it just didn’t turn out that way.” Cuz unfortunately your prick ended up inside a bunch of prostitutes and my money ended up in their bank accounts, and unfortunately you didn’t mention any of that to me for 8 years. Too bad how it just turned out like that.

  • Cheater: “I fail to understand your hostility…”

    Chump: “I no longer fail to disclose your duplicity.” Chump instates life-long NC and forges on to Meh…

    • That could be its own thread. “I fails” you could respond with.

      I fail to be your chump any longer.

      I fail to cover for your ass.

      I fail to know what I ever saw in you.

      Etc.

            • woo hoo, I am a big fail when it comes to not complying with the shit expected by my ex and the church following D’day.

              and I have never felt freer

              • Truth! With STBXH and Church that says, “Well, you are going to have to make some changes “. Me: ” Being a loyal, faithful wife for 20 years isn’t going in the right direction “?

              • Me, too, Thankful. Amen to being free of what cheaters and the church that was a flying monkey to my ex. I don’t need those kind of people in my life anymore.

            • Hey CL,
              How ’bout a “What did AP Win” Day for the Booby Prize that is the Twu Wuv Cheater? So healing to remind ourselves what they actually now have in their lives, as we get to Meh and so glad to be rid of them.

              • The church as been a support to me and don’t recommend o reconcile unless there was hard evidence over time there is true repentance and change in my ex. They supported and helped me go nc. I know not all churches do this…but mine has and I am thankful. God hates adultery because it leads to divorce and because He hates it because it is treacherous and vile!!
                Maybe another church could be considered if yours is unsupportive. Maybe DM could help!
                I am at 10 1/2 months since final d day. I may have weeckonciled if not for my church helping me really wait for true change, which has not happened. So I keep going ahead with separation and now court has started for the divorce.

  • OMG the toilet seat excuse. I got this stupid excuse when my youngest was only a baby, I knew deep down he had been with someone for what I had, but he just stayed as calm as a cucumber when I challenged him on it. He flatly denied cheating or even having the same issue as I did even though we had had sex, (which puzzled me) but he told me I must have picked the bugs up the last time I used a public toilet. I spent days racking my brain as to when I had last even used a public toilet. He was so calm, so matter of fact that it was not him, I believed it had to be me. He had no concern over the event at all, while I felt ashamed of my carelessness and relieved at his understanding. As a result I put any consideration of him cheating aside. 8 years later I got the truth. On D’day he stated his affair was only brief, now I know why.

    • Same thing happened to me, Thankful. He acted like it was no big deal while I was mortified and ashamed. I’ve still not worked up the strength to ask my doctor if it’s even possible to catch things from a toilet seat. I now suspect that he was cheating even way back then, but at the time I blamed myself for not being careful enough in public bathrooms.

      • Nope, not possible to pick up HPV, gonorrhea, syphilis, HIV, or herpes from a toilet seat. If you had a pet parrot, and the parrot spent a lot of time on the toilet seat, you might be able to pick up chlamydia that way.

        • HSV-1 transmits non sexually from cold sores, but that’s about it. Got to be careful with Oral if you have it/are with partner who has it (cold sores)

        • Me after DDay #4+ “Did you tell Schmoopie you have Herpes?” Gaslighter (thinking fast) “Well, she already has it…” I later found a search on his computer looking for cures for herpes. In the meantime I have fantasized what I might say to her if I ever saw her in person. Perhaps I would sweetly say “Gaslighter told me you already have herpes so at least you don’t have to worry about that”! Or “I have been so wanting to thank you for taking out the Trash.” Better yet, say nothing and be the lady that I am.

          • I’ve had lots of conversations with Tim Whore-tons Coffee Snatch in my mind, but I’ll probably be a lady when I see her some day. She’s a whore who went out with a married man. I on the other hand was a faithful spouse for 20 years. I win. She’ll always be a whore.

      • Lyn, no you cannot catch those sorts of things from a public toilet. but when we are young and naive and trust the man in our life whether married to them or not it is hard to imagine that they can look you in the eye and lie so calmly. It is their ability to become void of all emotion that throws us. They show no concern or regret or shame; they are just empty. I remember becoming so emotional over things in my marriage and being told that my emotions were getting away from me, this caused me not to trust myself, so cheaters calm seemed to be the balance in contrast to my emotion. In my marriage, it was something I admired in him. Now I know he is just empty and I should have trusted those emotions.

        • That is the mindfuck of the biggest proportions. Our emotions are real and true and they make us feel like we’re crazy for having them and that there is something wrong with us. Gaslighter never once comforted me when I was crying. Even when my boys were young they would comfort me and say “Oh mommy needs a hug”. I didn’t trust my own gut anymore after all the Gaslighting and covert manipulation. Now I realize that that feeling that “something was off” that I couldn’t put my finger on, was a huge red flag. These cluster B’s don’t give a second thought to spending our lives on their lies.

    • There are some odd non sexual ways to get some STIs (sharing needles, sharing food or eating utensils or even makeup products, sharing shaving tools, bleeding injuries coming in contact with open lesions, surgery/tattooing with unclean tools and a few more; most heartbreaking is being a newborn of an infected mother)
      From a professional standpoint unless you were having sex on that toilet seat with a diseased partner not getting an STI from that seat. x blamed hotbunking or sleeping in a cot or bed just previously occupied by somebody with lice (which is a legitimate excuse in some cases of crabs).
      Liked the parrot scenario, throw a reptile on there too might get salmonella.

    • Mine had different toilet issues. It was funny, close friends of mine who always hated my ex reminded me of how he used to get all indignant about why should guys have to put the toilet seat back down for girls? Who shouldn’t girls put it in the up position when they were finished, for guys?

      He used to get SO angry about that. We took to calling him “Toilet Seat Boy” after that, and it was good therapy for me as a constant reminder how, if someone can get so indignant and self-absorbed regarding the position of the toilet seat, he was some sort of self-absorbed psychopath.

      • I was always told it is a matter of courtesy so that someone doesn’t accidentally find herself in a cold porcelain hell. But apparently “Toilet Seat Boy” felt the need to assert his priority. Why do anything thoughtful for others when they can do it for him instead?

        And that was just the toilet seat.

    • Wow, Thankful, I thought I was the only one that got to deal with this one. I had even used a condom, but that was not enough to stop the onslaught being thrown off by my ex girlfriend. On the night of my discovery of the little critters crawling around on me (my D-Day), I “ran into her” at a party. No, she did not have enough respect for me to let me know prior to my discovery that I might need medical attention. Maybe she thought the condom would have prevented my infection. WRONG!! The run-in must have been planned by her because she was there seemingly alone and was wearing clothes that I had given her, obviously in an attempt to get my attention. Since my head was reeling with all the “it can’t be” denial excuses (remember this was on the D-Day), I was not sure how to conduct myself around her. Then she made the comment, “did you take your crab pill today?” and looked directly at me. I got up from my seat and left the party, implemented no contact, and have not spoken to her since. I got a hoover by proxy through a mutual friend 2 years later, which I ignored. Those clothes that I had given her that she wore that night? I have no doubt they ended up in a corner being thrown there by whoever took them off of her who she picked up at the party. That was probably planned as another means to hurt me for my benefit as well. Beautiful woman, but you can’t get much more disgusting that that.

  • CHUMP
    You spent 89.00 on a hotel.

    IFTUYH
    What if I was just drunk and couldn’t drive.?

    CHUMP
    You booked the hotel reservation the day before, spent 65.00 at a restaurant and 50.00 at the casino bar the same night.

    My lawyer found a way to doccument his cheating in a letter sent to his attorney and she withdrew from representing him.

    The best revenge is living better and telling the truth to everyone.

  • I finally gave up. It’s the same stuff over and over, ad nauseum. I think his name should be Dances with DARVO. He always finds some way to turn it back on me. Lalalalaaaa – not listening anymore!!!

    • This, DM! I finally realized it was an issue of differing values, not his lack of insight, social skills or medium-term thinking, when I found myself trying to explain to him why lying to people was harmful to relationships and unfair. And he couldn’t grasp it, despite his Ph.D. and MBA.

      And when values are that different? No point explaining or arguing.

    • They are SO self absorbed. They can’t imagine anyone not thinking they’re fabulous. If I had done to him ANY of things he did to me, he’d have blown his top! He gets anger. Just not mine.

    • This is true and informed my decision (trouble was I didnt have all the info)

      I decided that I had elaborated to him in excruciating detail that i was deeply hurt by his affair…if he ever chose to do that again, then we had grossly differing definitions of what the word “marriage” meant and I would be DONE !

      What I didnt know what that his other affairs were BEFORE that one, not after. It was true that we had a totally different definition of marriage, but I didnt know it.

  • No one does smug like Fucktard. He is on the short side, so he walks with his nose in the air and like he has a broomstick rammed up his ass. He has a small mouth with even smaller teeth, and a near constant small smug smile on his lip

    What I would hear from him on the subject of his relationship with CFMD “you are so wrong, you have it all so wrong”. He said this oh so condenscendingly. So smug.

    After the fiasco with his new house – 4.6 billable hours with my lawyer later, his lawyer told mine that the snafus of that day had nothing to do with Fucktard putting me as co-borrower on the loan papers but instead of my jealousy.

    When fighting about CFMD’s documented child abuse past, he told me “She has never hurt anybody in this family”

    So. Damn. Smug.

    I’ve learned my lesson and it is you can’t reason with crazy. You will never, ever win a battle about decency and morality and kindness with someone who does not possess those traits.

    • Calm
      Hope you are doing ok.

      I noticed that as soon as I realised that it was pointless trying to get him to see things from my viewpoint, or to get him to respond normally to things I asked or had said, that I suddenly began to ‘see’ him differently. So he would be sitting in front of me talking but I knew there was no point in listening so I would be thinking ‘hmm I never noticed all that grey hair, I wonder when his nose got so fat, his eyebrows are really bushy, his teeth look like they need a clean’. It’s as if I really was ‘seeing’ him for the first time. I guess I felt a huge emotional distance from him and suddenly acquired a different way of looking at his physical presence. I notice how weird his eating is, how awkward he is, all his strange mannerisms etc. It helps with the ‘treat him like the enemy’ thing.

      • Capricorn – this exactly. Once I accepted that deep down, he was not a decent human being and yes, he was not only capable of the things he had done but that he also chose these freely, I began to see him differently. Truth is that I no longer feel any longing for who I thought he was but now he just makes my skin crawl to be anywhere near him.

        • That’s the moment when you turn the volume off and just start looking. Enlightening. I think it allows you to get in touch with your animal intuition. You become like a dog watching and really trusting your instinct, you are not distracted by the words, the body language become obvious and clear. Raises your hackles.
          My dog did that with the traitor, after he rejected a present I gave him during wreckonciliation with what seemed to me like crocodile tears, then said he was afraid I was going to be angry and yell at him, while I was talking very calmly and trying to confort him through his crying snd asking him to tell me what was wrong. I moved away and sat down with a book, the dog jumped on my lap; she normally doesn’t, she’s a big dog. When he reached over to grab the phone she snarled at him and looked like she was about to bite him. She had never been aggressive to him. I looked at her and decided to trust her instinct, that she knew a lot more than I did about his true nature and was protecting me.

  • My ex’s response to my wanting a divorce in response to his serial lying, cheating and emotional abuse was that I had a “dark, evil side” that he was unaware of…. He couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t forgive him, give him another chance, and stay married to him. He told everyone that I had blindsided him.

    • Cheater has convinced his new wife and his support crew that the real reason we divorced is because I have an anger issue that I have refused to deal with over the years, that he is the victim of emotional abuse.
      My cheater has been fucking with my head since before we were married and now many can see
      the asshole that he is I do not have to tell them. Just like he got bent out of shape when I showed up to his family Christmas two years ago with our children as he had decided not to ask me if he could take them (as it was held a week before Christmas during my time), instead choosing to show up without them and paint me as the bitch. so, Shock, Horror I rock up with the kids, say high to his family speak to his brothers, cousin and aunt and when I leave cheater throws a tantrum, claiming I have no right to be showing up to family Christmas as I chose to leave the family. To my knowledge, cheater was put in his place by his older brother for being a dick.

      • Just this last weekend, I took my kids to STBX’s aunt and uncle’s house for their late family Christmas. STBX was in another state visiting his dad. So the rest of the family invited me and the kids.

        Apparantly, he had told them that he invited the kids to go with him to visit his dad but that I said they couldn’t go. I found out about it 2 days before he left when he sent me a text telling me he would be out of town and asked if he could see the kids the next night or the day he got back instead. When I asked the kids if dad had asked them to go with him, they said no. When asked when they found out dad was going, they both said the night before he left.

        Yet, he tells his family that I wouldn’t let them go. I told them that wasn’t true and he never asked either me or the kids. Then I changed the subject.

        I have come to the conclusion that the only way I can continue to have a relationship with them is to not discuss STBX. And the only way my kids will see his side of the family is if I maintain a relationship with them. Shit sandwich for sure!!

        • Cheater also pulled this “she won’t let me see the kid’s” bullshit with our school. Following his marrying another woman he discided he would go to Paris for a month on honeymoon. Never told me he was going, arranged for the elders of the church to come and collect the kids and have them on his visitation weekends, which I put a stop to as soon as the kids told me what was happening. but then he went to the school and told them that he was not able to see the children before leaving (because he didn’t ask) and would they allow him and the new victim time with the children to say goodbye. They did and that then lead to a conversation with the school for aiding cheater to breach our parenting agreement. Laughably when he got back he could not afford to pay half of our kids private uniform cost claiming to be broke but demanded that I allow him extra time with the kids in lieu of what he had missed being away.

    • This reverse causality is such a load of crap. He cheated because we grew apart? No, we grew apart because he cheated. We had to split because I have anger issues with him? No, I have anger issues with him and we had to split due to his continued cheating. We divorced because I lost my mind? No, I lost my mind and we divorced because he cheated.

      • YES! This is it exactly! The poor things have difficulty w/reasoning about cause and effect… Must be a special kind of learning disability….

          • Great tune by the White Stripes: effect and cause.

            I guess you have to have a problem
            If you want to invent a contraption
            first you cause a train wreck
            And then you put me in traction
            well first came an action
            And then a reaction
            But you can’t switch around
            For your own satisfaction
            Well you burnt my house down
            Then got mad at my reaction

            Well in every complicated situation
            There’s a human relation
            Making sense of it all
            Take a whole lot of concentration
            Well you can blame the baby
            For her pregnant ma
            And if there’s one of these unavoidable laws

            It’s just that you can’t just take the effect and make it the cause

            [Chorus:]
            Well you can’t take the effect
            And make it the cause
            I didn’t rob a bank
            because you made up the law
            Blame me for robbing peter
            Don’t you blame Paul
            Can’t take the effect
            And make it the cause

            I ain’t the reason that you gave me
            No reason to return your call
            You built a house of cards
            And got shocked when you saw them fall
            Well I ain’t saying I’m innocent
            In fact the reverse
            But if your heading to the grave
            you Don’t blame the hearse
            You’re like a little girl yelling at her brother
            Cause you lost his ball

            You keep blaming me for what you did
            And that ain’t all
            The way you clean up the wreck
            Is enough to give one pause
            You seem to forget just how this song started
            I’m reacting to you
            because you left me broken hearted

            See you just can’t just take the effect and make it the cause

            [Chorus]

    • The only time they tell the truth is when they project onto you. Whatever they accuse you of is what they are doing or are…

  • It is all so exasperatingly familiar. The stupid, smug looks of feigned innocence and denial. So calm and serene except of course when it came to the realization that he could possibly lose a share of the house and half of the precious stuff…until he decided to threaten to burn the house down before letting me have it. Scary and believable because he was on the volunteer Fire Dept. and knew how to make it look like an electrical fire. No emotion at all when he metioned that to me. Couldn’t understand my look of horror and ensuing rage that he was threatening my and my Daughter’s lives. He was proud and actually boastful of his ability to just “turn-off” any emotions. Sick freak.

    • Yes! Mine boasted about being able to just walk away from people he no longer wanted in his life. No emotion whatsoever. Why would this be a tactic you’d be proud of? It is a pattern in his life (read pathological). Instead of developing a capacity for true intimacy and some conflict resolution skills, he has cut people out of his life over and over again. This is his solution.

      • Yes. Mine would be all chatty and happy in front of me with neighbors or friends even during my deepest times of despair, saying things were going great for him. When I asked how he could do that he says that he’s just being his real self. I’m the disturbed one cuz I don’t just “put your issues aside for the greater good”.

    • That was a thinly disguised death threat. That’s terrifying, he probably knows how to get you to die in a house fire without arousing suspicion. I hope you told your lawyer immediately and told that fucker that you had told your lawyer and alerted him that if anything happened to you or your daughter, he should go to the cops and report what you had been afraid of. Call it life insurance! I hope you are far away from him now and he doesn’t know where you live!

  • “I refuse to discuss this with you.” or “I’m done talking about this” were his go-tos whenever I made an especially pointed observation or nasty comment i.e., “Great! Now OW can fuck random strangers in front of not just her own children, but mine too!” or, in between bouts of vomiting when I found out he hadn’t used condoms and I knew how promiscuous she was without using any protection, “I don’t believe she would do that to me.” which changed to “She admitted she slept with other men but that’s over now.”

    I also got the old standby of “It is what it is.”, a year and a half after D-Day when I got upset because he wanted my baby on her birthday, I got “It’s been two years! Get over it!” (clearly he isn’t exactly counting the months like I did) and one of the best ones during that same heated birthday discussion, “Well, I’ll admit that I thought you would have taken this a little better and that I was overly optimistic about how well we’d be able to communicate.”

    Really? I’m still mad because we were married for fifteen years, you cheated with a slut with lack of conscience, morals and character for six of those, you walked out on me after I had our youngest who was still a baby, you’re psychologically holding my older daughter hostage so I haven’t seen her in eight months and I’m the asshole for not getting over it?

    The smug was infuriating. The angrier or sadder I got, the colder he got and the more he backed away, and if he didn’t have a justification for everything he did, he would just refuse to discuss it. I remember at one point in the very early days after D-Day, I was so terrified of being a blind single parent I was just going to give him custody. And that idea made me so insane and miserable my then therapist suggested maybe I should go to the hospital. Ex’s response? “Just tell me whatever you’ll need for the stay and I’ll go get it for you.”

    When I decided somehow we’d make it, and that I couldn’t leave my kids, not even for a minute, and asked him calmly how he expected us to survive with an infant, two Autistic sons, an older daughter who was losing her mind, no family support, low income and no help, oh yeah and the blind thing, he just shrugged, said I was stronger than I knew and walked away. I’ll grudgingly give him points for that last one, and am smiling because he found it out the hard way.

    It has now swung the other way and he tries to ask questions, act like we’re friends and like all the parenting ideas I’m coming up with for my special needs 10-year-old are “ours.” It hasn’t gotten to the point where he’s dropped the kids yet, because OW knew them since they were babies and they love that the kids feel compelled to be nice to her since that’s just how I’ve raised them, but I can’t wait for all of this to slowly implode and I can think to myself oh well, it is what it is.

    • Cakeless, my heart goes out to you! You ARE strong to have endured everything you’ve been through. You are mighty!

      • Thank you, Lyn. I’m trying really hard to not hang out in the bus shelter waiting for the karma bus to arrive, and am making progress. But some of the shit that fell/falls out of his mouth still astounds me. Like, how could I live with someone for seventeen years and not realize how fucked up and shorted out the wiring was inside his supposed brain?

        • Cakeless, there’s a special place in hell for those who cheat on pregnant women and women with babies, and a reserved seat for your cheater who cheated on his blind wife who just had a baby. Red hot pokers up his arse waiting, so you don’t need to wait for the karma bus. You are mighty. Your daughter will come back to you.

    • Cakeless – my blood started to boil reading your post. And if I’m upset reading it, when I think of you living it my blood boils harder.
      I do wish I could wave a magic wand and wipe the smug off his face in a painful way. Hang in there. I know you are mighty.

      • Dang! Cakeless, I think all us chumps want our turn at beating his ass! You are strong. But that is one heartless SOB! He put whipped cream on the icing of his former cake. I am stunned.

    • Oh, yeah, the old “get over it” argument.

      Mine sent an ex-fiancé from before he knew me after me with that one. As I was hurling angry insults at him for all his affairs, she yells out, “Men cheat. Get over it already! All men cheat.”

      This particular woman (who, in hindsight, I’m sure was screwing my ex for money at the time), had spent 20 years as the mistress of this very rich married guy,who kept her, until he got so depressed with his life that he offed himself.

      It felt good to say back to her, “It’s no wonder you are desperate to find a man and never will, if your attitude is that they all cheat. Good luck with that.” The look on her face was precious.

      I just wish I’d been a fly on the wall if she ever found out I’m now engaged to a wonderful guy who is NOT one of those “all men” who cheat. It’s nice to know and experience the difference!

    • “The smug was infuriating. The angrier or sadder I got, the colder he got and the more he backed away, and if he didn’t have a justification for everything he did, he would just refuse to discuss it.”

      Yes. Yes. Yes. This was it with me too. Exactly.

      • Yes, stronger. The more I cried, the more angry and distant he became. I couldn’t understand it at the time and it hurt me deeply. Now I know.

      • I swear there must be a handbook of off the peg trite comments . I had the ‘it is what it is’ ; ‘I knew you would react like this ‘ (indignant) after the ILYBINILWY ; ‘I stayed for the kids’ ; ‘I don’t think I loved you since the kids were born’; and the jackpot ‘sex was just a biological release’ (as were were doing it till the week he left) so you waited 24 years to let me in on your pain and suffering !?? Now all the ‘poor me’victim lines are coming left right and centre. Unfortunately the kids got sucked in to the one about him being actually hungry because he was so strapped for cash…..yes because the OW needed to be taken off on weekend breaks . CANT ADMIT TO ANY WRONGDOING

  • This one actually makes me laugh.
    STBX, after DDay 2 when I threw him out and threw stuff at him, emailed his AP (with secret email accounts I had just discovered) and incredulously described my reaction of discovery to said tramp.
    “She was awful. Called me every name.”
    Poor guy, it must have hurt so much to be called a treacherous, lying, cheating bastard by the woman you have been deceiving and gaslighting.

    • Don’t you know you’re just supposed to thank him for everything he’s done for you and let him go be with schmoopie so he can be happy? Why are you so self-centered? LOL

        • And don’t forget when everyone finds out what they’ve done, said family and friends suddenly loathe cheater and the AP not because of their own sense of morals and values, but because “you got to them first and made sure they wouldn’t talk to us.” Not because what they did was awful, cowardly and disgusting. But apparently I have amazing and ceaseless powers of persuasion. Really? Shall we ask my crappy lawyers and broken marriage about those powers of persuasion? Dumb fucks can’t even carry a logic thread two feet without getting tangled up in it.

          • Cakeless, that is spot on.

            everyone that sided with me and confronted cheater with the truth was accused of being brainwashed by half truths and that they needed to put what had happened into perspective. When they suggested he meet up with them to give his version of events he would not do it as he just could not be straight with anyone, nor was he willing to be held to account. He kept the gullible of our friends and lost most.

          • Exactly . because ‘you poisoned the kids against me’ is easier for them to live with than accepting that your young adult children have eyes ears and common sense to see what a lying cheating coward you showed the world . no editorial needed ?!

      • Ugh the acting like we should thank them. Mine told me I was unhappy too (oh really I had no idea!) and that leaving me for the OW was going to be hard but it was the best for both of us in the long run. He told me it would all be ok but it would be the easy thing to stay with me so he just couldn’t do it.

    • Mine got upset one day and stated ” you have dragged my name through the mud”
      my responces was ” well you laid down in it”

      • Durt too was most upset that I told people the truth. I stole his friends. He didn’t give a shit about what it was doing to me or his mother.

      • Assclown is a manager at a very large grocery chain in my area. Those sweet Family Holiday commercials they run could make you cry! Right after dday and telling him out, which he did.
        I had my perscription ready at the store pharmacy, so I went to pick it up. Ran into one of my DS little friends who was working at the pharmacy and she said how is Peter Pan doing at his new store? You see he got transferred, however subordinate ho worker was still at that location. I said oh, predator, didnt you know I am filing for divorce? Megan tilts her head like huh? I said I thought the whole store knew. You see he is fucking Scumbalina criminal, and the poor kid put her hand over her mouth, like she was going to throw up and turned scarlet red. Megan was cringing! Guess the thiught of old man fucking a 22 yr old was gross to her, sickened at her own visual. What 21 almost 22 yr old would fuck a man 30 yrs your senior. A grandfather. A daddy issued girl. Well I told her, wow Predator told me everyone knew. Liar, lol.
        I said yep, go ask scumbalina criminal, im sure she saw me come in here and is hiding, check the breakroom.
        I said sorry if I shocked you, but they are living together too!
        Made my heart sore!!
        Have a good day Megan, nice to see you. She was dumbfounded…have a nice day.
        Whistle while you work…..
        Did s mind and body good.
        I know that spread like wildfire!?

  • This is why you really can’t converse with these defects. Honestly you will only feel worse, definitely frustrated. They will never tell the truth, never. Then there is the lame crap they come up with to always place the blame you (I didn’t think YOU would like it, let me, etc.) because they always thinking about our likes, dislikes, approval, disapproval, yeah right.

    • KB22, I agree. My ex kept blaming me for everything. Over and over I’d tell him to stop pinning his crappy decisions on me. It didn’t make any sense at the time, but after learning about narcissists I now understand why he did that. I have lost all respect for him, though, and I used to respect him a lot.

      • While we can sometimes knock the narc or sociopath off kilter and possible wreak a little havoc in their lives (which is always fun) it is totally impossible to get through to them or make them understand. They just don’t give a crap.

      • Lyn, its the heavy lifting, the appointment maker, the fixer if all bad things! Chumps are put to tasks of sometimes unreasonable or irrational and the cheaters sit back to criticize if the outcome is not what they think it should be. But God for bid they make a decision.

  • I got the “I don’t know where all this is coming from”. I didn’t respond but if I had it would of been something to the effect off: “This is coming from the deepest darkest place of my soul – the one you haven’t seen in the 20 years you’ve known me – buckle up asshole things are about to get super ugly for you and the results will be unrepairable.” It’s not like I didn’t give him fair warning that “I’m really getting tired of people not owning their shit” – but apparently this did not apply to him because I have so many people in my life that lie, cheat and verbally abuse me, didn’t you know? No one said narc’s are overly smart and the asshole couldn’t see past his own nose or hear anything that was said to him because he was soooo perfect. I will give him that – he was perfect lying, stealing, cheating, verbally abusive disordered POS that I have ever had the unfortunate experience of knowing.

    • “Buckle up assholes things are about to get super ugly for you and the results with be unrepairable.”

      Marry me.

  • OMG. The “IFTUYH” responses sound JUST like my X. to a letter (just add haughty Oxbridge accent). Add “clairvoyant” to CL’s talents.

  • One of the weirdest things my ex said to me was, “You must hate me, but I don’t hate you.” Like he was the bigger person because he didn’t feel rage at himself for blowing up our marriage? Like he was super altruistic and forgiving of my many shortcomings that caused him to cheat?

    • Lyn. I get this so much. Like I might have fallen out with him for some strange reason (WTF) but he still loves me. He will be patient while I work through this divorce thing and then we can begin again when I’m less nuts. I so get this. He is being the bigger person while I’m being all ’emotional’.
      He also has a trick. He will ask me how I am and what I need in order to get a clue as he has not the first idea about how to get things ‘back on track’. He even acts like I’m having a hissy fit by filing for divorce – he doesn’t want one but he ‘understands’ my anger.
      It makes me grind my teeth down.

      • Cap, my ex was super unemotional. A rock, really. He started out being MY rock, but then he became a big, heavy boulder squashing the life out of me. LOL. He always looked down on me for having pesky emotions. He saw me as weak because I was a sensitive person. Once, I remember him yelling at me for comforting a dying bird. He kept yelling, “It’s just a damn bird!” What kind of person does that?

        When my counselor read some of his writings I discovered, she said she thought he might be a high-functioning autistic. She said his writing was one of the most unemotional things she’s ever read, even though he was professing his adoration for schmoopie. She said he was all about acquisition.

        • Although my niece is autistic and she loves animals, so I don’t know what made him so mad about me comforting a dying bird. Maybe he was just mean.

        • Lyn.
          My cheat was also a boulder- literally. Huge and round.
          And he has just diagnosed himself as possibly autistic as he feels that might explain everything.
          I probably should tell him my levers are stuck at Cool, Bummer, Wow but I can’t be bothered!

          • I should add because I find it funny that he says he might be autistic but then always adds ‘high functioning’. I guess he needs just enough autism to justify any crappy behaviour but not so much that he won’t be hampered by it in his quest for super special snowflake status.

            • Omg, STBX’s therapist said he might be autistic. Not a stretch because all of my kids are on the spectrum, but he uses it as an excuse. He still knew and knows right from wrong, lying from truth.

        • Who cares if they are autistic? There’s still Lo cure for asshole, so it’s irrelevant. Meh. Moving right along…

          • The only thing is I don’t think autistic people are manipulative. They are pretty straight forward. So I don’t know about my counselor’s take on my ex. I do know that he expressed very little emotion until D-day, when he started sobbing in fetal positions. It was so odd and uncharacteristic that I thought he had a brain tumor. Was it true emotion? Was it just a way to make me feel sorry for him until he could extricate himself from our marriage? He even wanted me to give him sympathy for having to abandon me. He seemed to want me to mother him, but simultaneously wanted to push me away. Literally. Made me feel like my head was going to explode from the dissonance.

            • Lyn
              That’s so funny. I have only seen him cry that one time. As he told me he had slept with OW3. I thought it was so odd it must be a stroke! I just kept watching. It was so odd to see him cry. And he was crying for himself not us of course. He wasn’t very good at it and it didn’t last long. That’s funny we think they must be seriously ill.

              • I am getting quite sick of the autism/Asperger’s excuse for appalling behaviour. I’ve worked with a lot of autistic young people, they are not cruel and they are not manipulative, they are not accomplished liars, if they lie at all! Traitor did that shit, and then he would also say that I had Asperger’s when I didn’t react the way he wanted me to, if he was trying to get me worked up over something and it didn’t work, if I was trying to be reasonable when he was losing his shit.
                The whore tried the same bullshit with her son, the boy I was looking after. When he didn’t behave the way she wanted or she couldn’t handle him because she wouldn’t let the kid breathe, he had Asperger’s, he had Oppositional Disorder, he had whatever. Once she and her mother drove the poor kid so mad that he bit granny (he was 4). So granny kicked a 4 year old in the arse. Guess who they thought was the problem? The little 4 year old… Eventually, after they also accused me of making him difficult and violent (!), I suggested to the traitor we try a little test on his hearing, because he was also starting to ignore me when I asked him to do stuff. The boy had glue ear…The whore is a nurse, the grandmother is a naturopath, granddad is a psychiatric nurse. All these health specialists…
                So they switched to blaming me for the glue ear because I took him swimming every week. But no more talk about Asperger’s 😉 Then the whore asked me to take him to the GP whenever he was sick because she couldn’t handle his behaviour. So I did, the boy was an angel. She just wanted me to pay for the GP visits. I cottoned on to that after a couple of visits and told them to bill her. So she started taking him herself again. Boy suddenly felt a lot better and didn’t need to go to the GP so often. Problems solved.

              • Lyn and Capricorn, chiming in a bit late here but your dialogue was super helpful in helping me validate that I was not crazy.

                My cheater said all those words and more: that he does not hate me and will support me through this process and he will always care for me and I am a dear person to him. And every time I felt that it’s me who is an emotional vampire with huge jealousy issues while he is acting out of true altristic love. Crazy. I want to scream now that I don’t care for his support and care, that it’s too late, that he ruined the most precious thing we had and here I am again screaming from the bottom of my heart while he is looking at me in dismay and a childlike puzzled face. Arrrgh….I would like to see if he uses that same expression when he is after his next pray in a full swing seduction mode.

                He cried twice, too. Once 6 years ago when I discovered a hotel booking for two ahead of his “solo” vacation to Mexico and the second time last summer while he spilled his guts out after 6 months of continous gaslighting post DDay. That time 6 years ago he continued the lies and gaslighting and managed to turn it around with an explanation that all hotels have double beds, etc. He pretended he was going through a deep emotional crisis and needed to visit the mexican pyramids to get the wisdom and insight. I guess I felt at the time I was losing him so it was easier to continue denying to myself. We had a soul to soul talk and I told him to go as long as he was alone (hahaha!) That’s when he cried and that’s why I thought it was a full hearted talk.

                The second time…I guess he was pitying himself that he was losing it. They don’t want to lose the family but they also don’t want to change their ways. So poor him had to cry because oh! Poor him was not understood and valued by women in his life.

                Both times it was a short cry. Both times I bought it. Right after I reacted emotionally by hugging him he stopped pretty much right away.

                Ask me what will I do now if he cries? I will laugh outloud right at his face. This is what they deserve. A good heartfelt laugh showing them we cracked them up.

              • Longtimechump,

                Say What????

                “He pretended he was going through a deep emotional crisis and needed to visit the mexican pyramids to get the wisdom and insight.”

                Wow! A Master Craftsman of Bullshit!

                Don’t feel bad. I have fallen for huge bullshit stories too from my Narc Cheater.

                I look back and say to myself, “How STUPID were you!?!?”

                The short answer is I trusted him. I never dreamed he would cheat!

                But I have some real doozies he pulled on me. Naked yoga had to be in the top 5 con jobs I’ve fallen for. The Al Queda sex slave was another epic show of Narc Con Artist skills. Now I’m so deranged I find some of this hilarious.

                OMG! I’ve officially lost my mind!

              • Wow–“Al Qaeda sex slave”–that’s practically Jedi-level mindfuckery. I’m impressed.

                Pardon me while I go beat up a Wookie.

              • You just said it:

                “The short answer is I trusted him. I never dreamed he would cheat!”

                My close friends also can’t get that I fell for his cons for such a long time. Love and trsut combined can play miracles on our capacity to see through.

      • My STBX loves to tell me, ‘I’ve been patient with you,’ when he is trying to coerce me to agree to a bad deal in our divorce settlement.’

    • mine tried to justify his cheating by comparing it to my anger and then claiming they were just as bad as each other so if I could not forgive him that was my issue because we had both brought issues to our marriage, divorce was on me it had nothing to do with him. Mix this with a whole heap of Jesus cheater rational and that was my life following D’day.

      your anger is a sin, two wrongs do not make a right. was the shit feed to me by church elders.

      • I was told “God hates divorce,” implying that I offended God by going to the womens’ shelter and filing for divorce. This was after he had nearly suffocated our baby, and thrown me to the floor. I was supposed to “wait for him to change,” which would have taken longer than evolution.

        I got out, and found different Christians to hang around with.

        • Sheesh. Pretty sure the Bible hates adulterers and killers more than divorce. Sorry you went through that and congratulations on leaving.

      • Ooh, I hate that whole, your anger drove me to it. I am a pretty meek person who expects that everyone generally be kind and considerate, but every now and then I would get so fed up with some asshole antics and I would light up and give him a piece of my mind, and I do have a sarcastic streak, so it would be pretty pithy. When he left me he told me I had been so mean to him that he was eternally scarred and just couldn’t put up with it any longer, but that his feelings for the OW had nothing to do with his actions here, it was all on me and how I had made him feel. Talk about lack of self-responsibility, but that’s what you get when you’re dealing with a man-child.

        • Oh, and I’ve seen it here before and I fully agree, Cheaters seem to feel that only they are entitled to anger, their’s is righteous and well-founded, where-as a chump should just swallow and smile and accept whatever is handed to them. It does seem to be a narc thing, express anger toward them, and they are out of there like a shot, because they can’t handle your hostility. Maybe it’s the inverse effect of Kibbles: because they live off other people’s emotional supply, having none of their own, anger is like a poison to their system and they have to jettison it fast, to avoid being over-run by the bad feeling pointed in their direction.

    • KK says this ALL THE TIME: “I don’t hate you, you know — I hate what you’re DOING, to me and to your children, but I don’t hate you and never have. I hope some day you can get past your anger and understand that.”

      She’d be a zen master of this type of mindfuck, if it worked. It doesn’t. I understand that it’s the ravings of a disordered 45-year old child.

      • “I hate what YOU are doing?” Like noticing her bad behavior? Or calling it wrong? Or saving yourself from a lifetime of abuse? That one is certifiable.

      • K_ re: the hating thing, and this statement literally gave me chills up and down the spine: ‘to do this (divorce) I’ll have to hate you’–I couldn’t have been more ‘cooperative’ in letting him out of our marriage of 25+ years so he could be in the arms of his Schmoopie (who he’s cheating on, oh well…)

        This, despite countless affairs, ex-dude was packing, and had multiple arrests I was unaware of, (as well as the multiple OW)

        Scared me senseless at the time, and yes, I am still angry.

    • I’m seriously beginning to believe that there’s a book out there that all of them have obviously studied. Hard. Because I’ve been “forgiven” as well for taking my love away (no real specifics on how I did this, but it is my biggest offense in the marriage) – it’s just a “shame” that I can’t find the same forgiveness in my heart for him…because they’re like, totally the same thing…sigh!

        • My Disordered NARC Cluster B Cheater had “The Art of War,” by Sun Tzu handy on the bookshelf right next to Machiavelli’s “The Prince.” I threw those fuckers in the garbage after I threw him out!

              • I swear, y’all, that’s just a guy thing. I had those two too. Don’t let those books put you off a dude in the future. But if he had no books? Run. (Or the digital equivalent; I have got very few paper books left post-cheater.)

              • The Prince is an excellent read. The Art of War is like poetry to me – pick it up, read a verse, go to battle! (In the whore trenches!)

              • I have Mao’s Little Red Book, too (what bet that purchase triggered me at some government agency), and have been trying to find a copy of the Chinese Revolution poster “Women Hold Up Half the Sky” for years…

              • You out-referenced me. Well done!

                I am not familiar with that poster, but I assume the recent book with a similar title owes a debt to that work?

          • I have those books. Required reading for a school. I think it might be The Prince which states the best way to kill your enemy is to destroy them from within.

            Does anyone else see the parallel to Russia taking down the US in the same way through hacking, election swaying and freaking trump? I think I’m more worried about GI-nah than Russia at this pot.

            Anyhow, read those books instead of pitching them out. Think of it as research.

      • I think a program uploads when they initiate cheating that gives them the cliched catchphrases they all seem to use, as well as boosting the entitlement, narcissism and justification in their operating systems.

        I don’t know what it is about Narcs, but they seem really stupid. Perhaps it’s the impenetrable certainty they have that we never have been/never will be as clever as they are, so they do a lot of in plain sight stuff, if we only start looking, and they admit an awful lot of stupid/mean stuff they say and do. For instance, the OW was going OFF when cheater wavered about leaving me and I said that she seemed to think that I was somehow preventing him from doing what he really wanted to do ie, in her mind be with her. Oh yes, he said, that’s right, because I made you out to be right bitch. Who says that. Perhaps it’s the relief in getting caught, or they think they are dealing with someone who has as cloudy thinking as they do, or is just plain beneath them, but, especially at the beginning they admit a lot of dumb stuff. If I was in a no-fault state, I’d be keeping my trap shut, and even if I wasn’t, but they wax lyrical about all their thoughts and feelings (if they indeed have them) about you, many of them super unflattering. I’ve got them all stored, documented and saved up for a rainy day and I’ve already called him on a few of them. He seems shocked, and whether it’s genuine or not, denies ever saying them. Is that a weird narc thing too, or just having trouble keeping track of so many lies?

    • Haha I had that version too . he would write to the kids to present his side and say ‘ I don’t hate mum but….’ Wtf . worrying he also had the outrage in him the night after he told me he wanted a divorce out of the blue … ‘The worst thing is I thought you would kill me in my sleep !!’ Soooo much projection . that line still scares me because that thought did not even come to me !! I loved him for f sake . but it tells me what he was thinking .

  • When I put cheater out of our family home after finding he had a liking for gay porn from our teenage son, I was upset. Learning that he had been sexually active for 8 years just made me fire-breathing angry. It wasn’t just the cheating it was the lying, the heartless disrespect and the amount of shit I had covered up for him over the years in the name of being a good wife. But nobody knew this because I spackled like a champion.
    Now depending on who you were in cheaters life and how much value he put on your relationship with him determined what he told you. For the gullible within his church circle, they were told that the sin of his cheating was due to demonic possession, a result of becoming lazy in his Christian walk through having to deal with a difficult wife. My act of divorce was portrayed as a deliberate act of sin, resulting in my needing to be shunned, ( I know this is all bullshit). The less spiritual that he needed for reasons only known to him. They were told that he only did porn, but he made up the rest to get away from me because I refused to divorce him or they were told that he had had an affair 8 years earlier, it was a once off and I was blowing it all out of proportion. The new victim was convinced that the poor bastard had his heart ripped out by and angry abusive bitch and needed a friend because he was so broken and she swallowed this, hook, line and sinker. Anyone who did not accept his lies or heard the truth and challenged his version of events were cut from his life. Cheaters need to paint themselves as the victim because the general default setting of most people is to feel sorry for the wounded, yet when they are alone with us they are anything but wounded. They are smug, rude, entitles, button pushing, emotional vampires. They walk into a room like they are ten foot tall and bulletproof and they just command the space especially if you are there because they need you to be insignificant, you have wounded them but not like they say you have. You have cut off the supply they have spent valued time grooming you for and now they will need to work harder to get what they need, And they do not care how.

    • Thankful, they are good at acting. My ex once told me he could get people to do anything he wanted them to by “acting like he cared.”

      • Skinwalker,

        that made me laugh, yes that would be the church. The senior minister is the biggest narc I have ever met and he has groomed his underlings to do his bidding, at the top it is a well-oiled cult.
        further down to line it is a group of gullible individuals who are all being mentally fucked over in the name of God. It is sad.

  • One of my favourite things about this site (and there are many) is how CL has enabled me, an an Olympic chump, to realise just how much of life is not my problem. That in fact I am responsible only for my part in the world. I don’t have to untangle any skein not even my own if I don’t want to. I don’t have to sort out how everyone else is feeling. I don’t have to worry about my cheat, not what he says nor what he does and certainly not how he feels. I can pretty much Cool, Bummer, Wow – my way through life, jettison the anxiety and no one else will notice but I will be immeasurably happier. It’s quite a heady sensation. I don’t have to ‘do’ anything and I can make my choices for me. How come this never dawned on me before! Lol. I’m like the tortoise, I get there in the end.

    So as for his ability to fuck with my mind well tough shit cheat…I’ve been inoculated by chump lady. Fully vaccinated against all that rubbish.

  • IFTUYH is a second cousin once-removed to IFTUWYDWTBF: I Fail To Understand Why You Don’t Want To Be Friends.

    • Oh, this *eyeroll* “Yes, we can stay in the house together and co-parent while I work out what I want, I could want to come back in a week, a month, six months…There’s no need for this to turn nasty.” All this before I discovered the OW hovering in the background.

  • Has anyone else noticed how cheaters engage this bewilderment in the process of discarding the chump but when they know we are done, and become indifferent to them and want to be NC with them, they do it publicly?
    But when it is just you and them they are everything they have accused you of being.

    • The public outrage and drama they live on. When it’s over, they have to find a new target to prepare for the next scene.

  • According to Durt, the very last time I allowed him to ever be near me without a third party, the issue with us was “you have serious anger management issues like your mother.” He said this after suddenly turning on me after we had walked through the house to try to agree on gone to divide things. When we couldn’t agree, I would say “we will let the judge decide”. He screamed at me, got in my face and yelled. “You are a fucking princess bitch” and other choice words. The mask came off. He chased men through the house and prevented me from calling the cops.
    When my mom gets angry, like 3 times a year, she really gets pissed for about 5 minutes, then chills out and is fine. Not really an anger management problem.
    I told him to let me know how #4 slut puppet takes it when he does the same thing to her that they did to me. He didn’t like my anger which I finally found after being abused for three years, and finally found my voice thanks to chump lady and chump nation. I may have also said “durt, you have a narcissist problem and a cheating problem as well as a dick problem. You can’t keep it out of strange pussy.”

    • Did I mention MIL heard and saw all of this (since she lived with me the whole time he was on “tour” with the slut puppet). I proceeded to detail the many times he cheated on his last wives. and on me, and with whom. His response “hopium” and shakes his head. Guess he was rendered momentarily speechless.
      He then tried the charm channel and the pity channel. Later that day threatening to kill himself. I told his mom and she called him all freaked out. He of course called me telling me never to scare his mom like that. I said if he ever threatened suicide again I would do the same. Shut that down. (He threatened many times before whenever he was losing control of me).

  • This post touches on what I think is one of the worst realizations of this awful experience…..that the mindfuckers are EVERYWHERE! It’s not just your cheater using these lines. It’s friends, family, not just in-laws but my OWN family, coworkers, posts in social media. Freaking everywhere. It’s like I was wearing blinders for all of my adult life until D-Day. Now they’re off, and I SEE MINDFUCKERS EVERYWHERE! It’s so goddamn depressing. More depressing than the cheating itself sometimes.

        • This is exactly what Sandra L Brown of The Institute of Relational Harm Reduction has been saying. (saferelationshipsmagazine.com) That Cluster B’s are the Number One Health Problem in the United States. If they are conservatively estimated to be 4% of the population and each Cluster B hurts only five people in their lives, then 60 million people are horribly impacted by these pathologicals. That’s more than people who have colon cancer, many other diseases, you name it. We need public pathology education STAT!

          • Yes, she is really interesting to listen to and I believe the damage and disruption these types cause around them is grossly underestimated. I like how she suggests that there is a proportion of the population that may “suffer” from too much empathy. That would be most chumps.

  • My cheater STBX loves to say ‘Let it go’ or ‘ ‘Grow up’ or ‘Mom (me) needs to learn to behave’ if he is being unreasonable in a conversation about the kids. To avoid becoming really unhappy about the need to deal with outrageous behavior, I think, ‘How would I talk to and feel about the schizophrenic person at the bus stop where I waited for a bus?’

    • To put the shoe in the other foot I always say the let it go phrase and even bought a frozen toque that says let it go on the front of it and sent cheater pants a pic of it ? Boy did that piss narc Fucktard off – dismissed asshole. Mind you if he did it to me I’d be infuriated because I didn’t blow up our lives and cheat with a whore – I will never “let it go” . Mom needs to behave . . . Uhuh!!! Dad needs to keep his dirty dick in his pants and stop talking to mom. Ugh!! ?

  • “IFTUYH: You know I’d really like to talk about this, but I don’t think it would be productive right now with your overreactions. Let’s just wait until you can be civil.”

    I got this version: “I’ll be happy to have this conversation at the proper time in the proper forum.”

    And civility. The height of false equivalency–Yes, I fucked a bunch of people, lied to you for 11 years, had secret “friendships”, blew 6 figure $ on prostitutes, drugs and strippers…I have apologized for that… but I can’t talk to you because you are not being civil.

    He once said in front of our children that my parenting was horrible, and justified it because he said it in “a civil tone of voice”.

    First question after dday in counselors office: “how do I get her to be civil?”

    • Ugh. After I’d filed on Hannibal Lecher, and then he begged for one more MC session, I told him he could go, but I wasn’t going. Instead of asking what he could do to make it up to me, he spent his hour with the therapist asking how he could get back the “old, happy, Tempest.” Answer: GTF out of my life.

      • …. the “old, happy, Tempest” ! I find it very telling how our exs point out that we are not happy but apparently we were once at some point in the past. Close to Dday the ex and I were having a tense chat and he looked in my direction but not at me and stated, “you will never be happy”. I am a serious person by nature but I am also very content and I was “happy” with what I did have in my life and that was my 2 children, my then husband as we were a lovely family and we all had excellent health which can never be taken for granted and our home. That is way more than I ever dreamed of having. I didn’t suffer from anxiety or depression when I had our 2 children because I was so happy and I just got on with life. I do apologise to any one who did suffer with depression when they had their babies because I have seen the problems it causes. By the way Tempest your ex wanted the “old, happy, Tempest” back in order to keep trying to destroy you. Thank your lucky stars you are free of him as we all should be here at CN.

        • I know, Maree–it’s lose/lose with these cheaters. The fact that I wasn’t chipper after over a decade of emotional abuse was also the reason he was attracted to gradwhore who was !vibrant! and looked at him with adoration.

          We are fortunate to be free of these emotional vampires.

          • Tempest, like your ex mine is also attracted to the prostit-tot because she is so uncomplicated, exciting, does everything he expects and she laughs like a cackling witch at a volume you have to hear to believe. Now once the ex would have run a mile from someone like than but now he runs a mile to get to her. I am way too old and refined for him these days. The poor girl he is shacked up with is being used but then again she is also using the old man. Fancy having to look over your shoulder every minute of the day. Theirs is a match mad in heaven I say!

        • Maree, that’s such a good point, I am a serious person too, maybe not a really fun loving girl, but I was happy and content, in spite of his attitude. I accepted his flaws and I was content with my lot, I used to tell him I was really grieving not being able to have a child but how lucky I felt to have found him and to have his kids and his siblings as my family. I am just not a giggly person, so what? I am hard working, organised, efficient and reliable. Maybe not the life of the party.
          No, to him I was depressed (he’s the one who has had diagnosed depression and drug problems) and near the very end he accused me of being like his alcoholic father who neglected his kids because he was drinking so much. I have a couple of drinks a month if at all! I don’t do drugs, I am on no medication. WTF??

          • Kiwichump–Immediately splash cold water on your face. You are still implicitly laboring under the illusion that you can get SENSE from a cheater. Once they cheat (and possibly before), you can no sooner get a straight, logical answer out of them than you can squeeze the Hope diamond out of the ass of one of your farm animals. Anything they say once they’ve cheated has one of 3 purposes: (a) evade responsibility and cast the blame for their cheating on the chump; (b) gain power over the chump, sometimes by employing abject cruelty, and/or (c) manage their image to the world. There are no other options.

            Think of all the wonderful things you did RIGHT in your relationship. Frankly, your responses to the cheater as posted on this day’s blog alone strike me as significantly more compassionate than he deserved. What is he left with to blame his piss-poor behavior on? Fabrications of you as an alcoholic because you had a few drinks per week. Puh-leeze. Protestations that because you weren’t Pollyanna every second of every minute of every day, you were unpleasant. You know your X is a sociopath. He broke the back of a sheep, for fuck’s sake. He is on my top-5 list of Tony Soprano Pine Barren treatment because he is one of the more odious people described in the annals of CN. You’re going to accept his judgment that YOU were flawed? Ha ha ha; it’d be funny if it wasn’t so scary.

            Fuck him. You’re fabulous.

            • Thank you Tempest and Maree, I know I was not depressed and I didn’t believe him when he kept saying so. That’s one of his gripes, that I refused to deal with my depression issues. As I have said to another poster once, before you let someone diagnose you with depression, beware you are not suffering from their oppression.
              What struck me is that Maree was also taken to task for being serious, not fun, I guess it’s part of the cheater handbook. They try to guilt trip us for being responsible, paying the bills, being Mum.
              I always stuck to my guns with the depression thing, under a lot of pressure from him and even in MC. As you know the MC was a nitwit at best, more of a cheater apologist. But I maintained that I was proud of how I had withstood all these miscarriages without ever getting depressed and instead kept trying to have a baby. And I gave the traitor credit for it too. So he couldn’t grind me down on that one. He tried the asexual accusation, he nearly brainwashed me on that one, because I knew I needed less sex than he did ( and he obviously never can get enough!). But then his SIL pointed out to me that getting pregnant 6 times after 40 without any fertility treatment was not achieved by immaculate conception.

              Tempest, when the traitor demanded a menage a trois, I also laughed at him, told him he was no Tony Soprano, who could get away with having all these mistresses because he was a big boss and could ply all these women with jewelry to keep them compliant. “You’re not such a big man and you’re not such a good provider”. I was quite impudent…Didn’t change anything but at least I stood up to him.

      • “Yes, the old, happy Tempest. The Tempest that sacrificed her own dignity for the sake of our relationship, then let me shit all over that sacrifice. Why can’t she get back to being that?”

      • Tempest,

        would the old happy Tempest, translate into the unknowing, happy to supply my every wish, Tempest. That is one thing these freaks just don’t get. just because they wish it so does not make us forget.

        • Tempest,
          Why can’t you be the happy wonderful wife I married before I cheated with grad whore and got all tangled up in that sexual-harassment suit and humiliated you and pulled all that endless mindfuck shit on you and made your life a living hell? I mean geeze you got a problem just letting things go and being happy?

    • So this! Stbx used this card all the time. He couldn’t talk to me while I was emotional or overreacting. Cold bastard. Just another power trip for him. He even told our boys that we were divorcing because I was menopausal. Wtf?!?!

  • This is exactly how my STBX is and now that I got my mojo back I remembered who I am, what I want in a partner, what my deal-breakers are, and my humanity, agency, and entitlement to basic decency — I’m divorcing his hateful sociopathic ass. No contact is the only way I could clear the thick chumpy fog that obscured my reality and rationality. Once my brain was cleared and I could see reality I was able to act to save myself.

    Life is very good and I see meh on the horizon after I wade through this final muck of trial next week.

    • MC99, you stay mighty.
      Nice to read your comments. Great to know your “sun” will rise in your time on your horizon! May “meh” be with you and all of CN!

  • IFTUYH happened to me, and it was at that point I realized I might as well try to negotiate with a brick.
    The fight is over reality itself, the Cheater’s allergy to responsibility comes out.

    It didn’t stop me trying. After we worked out the settlement, he did deign to send an email entitled ‘The Rest of It’, ie, his ‘reasons’ for cheating on me with our sister in law, and in general being a cowardly nestshitter. He was ‘sorrynotsorry’.

    You guessed it, the issue was my reaction (PSTD) and he was concerned I was ‘infecting’ our daughter (PTSD, self-harm suicidal ideation, insomnia, despression and fugue). ‘The rest of it’ was MY WHOLE FUCKING LIFE. I still haven’t recovered, but Kiddo has, more or less. I have modelled as much integrity as I know how, and let her draw her own conclusions. That is worth the energy. Speaking truth to Fuckery, not so much.

    Mr Fab seemed to hook onto the negative kibbles. I think the IFTUYH stage is them realizing the kibbles are drying up, and if the Chump-as I did, tries to act reasonably, i.e., “Okay Mr Fab, you don’t want to believe our daughter needs a psychiatrist? Here is an MDs report. You don’t beleive she is getting bullied online-‘Hey, aren’t you the kid whose dad is fucking their Auntie and cuts? Cut deeper next time and kill yourself.'” All deemed BS by Mr Fab. Because that’s what any suddenly single parent would do-bribe a doctor to fabricate a psych report and recommendation, and create several Ask.fm accounts to harass their own kid.

    He started getting off on this, and went NC himself-silent treatment. It all came to head and we got out, desperately poor now, and unemployed, but STILL a thousand times better for Kiddo and I to get away from that particular mindfuck.

    Early stage Chumps, if this is happening to you, take Nomar’s advice-the only way to win is not to play. Really hard not to, if you are defending your kid from the SOCIOPATHIC MOTHERFUCKER their Dad turned out to be. Don’t even try to coparent-parallel parenting saved our lives until I could get sole custody.

    An exit strategy is the ONLY strategy.

    Love to all Chump Nation!
    x-Meh

      • Thanks, Survivor.

        Pendulum gotta swing, right? Just venting….At present, ducks are as lined up as can be. I gotta hold out another 6 months in this overpriced bubble and then I am heading to bro’s farm, there to raise pigs and pot. With Kiddo applying for grants, etc, it behoves me to be poor. Mr Fab won’t stump up for glasses for her, but will buy her a prom dress (which somebody needs to buy the tickets). Argh. Kiddo looking for part time work, but is currently rocking straight As, so priorities, priorities. I have next month’s rent in the bank and that is it.

        Been firing applications into what feels like the void. Ultimately, I want to work online- I WAS a kick ass teacher and administrator until Dday, and I was doing some killer work until I got laid off about a year ago. Since then, have had three jobs which I had to quit. One expired, it was a temp thing, the other two were run by screaming narcs. ALL seriously underpaid. There are parasites everywhere, I guess.

        I’ll keep walking.

        ?

    • Yup. Here are a list of things you can do that are less painful, and more beneficial than trying to coax reason or empathy out of a cheater:

      1-Talk to a tree (they benefit from the carbon dioxide).
      2-Bang head against said tree (loosens the sap).
      3-Shove sewing pins under your fingernails (stimulates circulation).
      4-Count how many water drops it takes to fill a thimble, repeatedly (enhances concentration).
      5-Spill a bag of rice on your kitchen floor and use chopsticks to pick up each kernel individually (improves manual dexterity).
      6-Use medium-grade sandpaper to shave your legs (exfoliates, too).
      7-Have a Newtonian physics discussion with a 3-year old (they will grasp more of that than a cheater grasps logic).

      Feel free to add to the list.

      • 8- Yoghurt weaving.
        9- Tetrapyloctomy (the Ancient Art of Splitting a Hair Four Ways)
        10-Explaining Jungian archetypes to the cat

        Truly absurd….

          • 12. Stick pins in your eyes – those lying eyes

            13. Try licking your elbow – the physical version of cheater think

            14. Eat that teaspoon of cinnamon – better than a shit sandwich

            15. Try drawing a 6 while moving your right foot in a clockwise circle – good to practice while cheater is talking (can also try drawing 8 while foot goes counterclockwise

            16. Use a Jackson Pollock for a join the dots picture of cheater brain wiring

            17. Carpet your whole floor in bubble wrap for that special sensation of not knowing where the next bang will come from

            18. Try not to think about penguins

            19. Make Star Trek door noises in front of an elevator all day

            20. Watch tv and repeat everything in a fake French accent with shrugs….

            • 22. Wrap every piece of furniture in Saran Wrap.

              23. Shellac all your socks to make them waterproof.

              24. Memorize lines from Jim Carrey movies.

              25. Water the weeds in vacant lots to remind you of what you were doing in your marriage.

              • 26. Nail all your furniture on the ceiling to match the upside down version of your new life.

                27. Build a cheater dummy for Halloween with sparkles and two faces and enraged expression.

                27. Paper the walls of where he is living now with “I AM THE BOSS OF YOU” posters while he is out.

                28. Use a razor to shave a message in their back hair (ewww)

                29. Try to imagine the vegetable their face most resembles.

                30. Buy fridge magnets to write poetry with and see how much you can get away with.
                Cheater limericks anyone?

                The was an old man from Shanghai
                Who liked to make old hookers sigh
                He looked at the bed
                Where she lay open spread
                And decided he wanted to buy.

                Ta da!

  • Ditto x10000

    Oh, I pushed as hard as possible for a parenting evaluation and a psych/substance abuse evaluation. Narc gave up custody to avoid it. It cost every $$$ I had and months of HELL but my child’s mental health and physical health is unquestionably worth it. Do not give up!!!!!!

  • I think these assholes are all like this because 1) no matter how well they have rationalized and blamed others for it, they know perfectly well their behavior is reprehensible; 2) they are wary of their chumps once the chump knows about the reprehensible behavior, because 3) THEY DON’T WANT TO BE JUDGED.

    Being judged by others as lacking is a narcissistic cheater’s greatest fear, and biggest threat to his (or her) tiny and fragile sense of self esteem.

    They seem to be divided into two camps in their reactions to discovery and judgement: the ones who can’t stand it and leave for their affair partner because the affair partner doesn’t judge them (yet), and the ones who keep trying to change the chump back into the non-judgemental cake provider she (or he) was before the discovery.

  • I’m just wondering what it would be like if you gathered up all of our cheats and put them into one room? Can they understand each other? Do they ‘see’ each other? Would they get along? Not be able to stand the competition?
    I’m guessing chumps together would recognise something similar about each other and it would be lovely.
    But what would a room full of narcs do? Would all the covert narcs be listening to the sparkly narcs? What happens when two narcs collide?
    Apart from all go into politics……
    would they share similar stories of all the chumps who didn’t understand me.

    Which gives a ring of truth to that old saying ‘my wife doesn’t understand me’ because they don’t add ‘ because I’m a lying fuckwit who just wants to eat cake without consequences ‘

    • Each one would feel superior to all of the others: “Oh my, I’m glad I’m not a horrible person like him/her. I may have made mistakes –everyone does you know — but at least I’m basically a good person. It’s not as if . . . heeeyyy, who’s THAT?…”

      • UXworld, I think you nailed it. Shortly after my husband fathered an out-of-wedlock child and was sued for child support (all to be unknown to me for another 13 years), we were at a party talking about a mutual friend who had been horribly cheated on by her husband. My husband enthusiastically participated in the general cheater bashing that was going on.

        Their abilities of compartmentalization–which seem particularly strong when employed in self defense–allow them to look at and judge others quite harshly and self righteously, while avoiding applying similar judgement in any way to themselves. They are absolute titans of hypocrisy.

      • Ux

        That’s exactly what they do! my x narc and his best friend narc compare daughter’s and their academic performance. We (chump mom’s) hear about it. It’s pathetic really.

    • The room already exists. It’s over on reddit adultery threads. They all egg each other on

    • My close friend was discarded by her husband and immediately moved in with another woman. This was before my own DDay. STBX agreed with me about how awful her husband was.
      Fast forward to my DDay. I called good college friend who was also a friend of STBX. I asked friend to reach out to STBX (asshole told me he HAD to continue talking to OW because she was his friend and confidante and he didn’t have anyone else to talk to…) Mutual friend is outraged at STBX’s treatment of me “how could he do this to you?!” Fast forward farther, mutual friend is cheating on his own wife with a young ho-worker.
      They condemn each other. For doing the exact same fucking thing.

      • louisvilleflower – Yeah I noticed they do the same thing they condemn others for. My STBX always acted disgusted over his parents cheating, but he does the same thing and tells me and our child to get over it. I used to think it was weird STBX has a best friend (only friend) that was so mean to his wife and cheated, etc…. But it’s because they are both alike.

    • Capricorn, I wonder that sometimes as well. Do the assholes sniff eachother out.
      Gathered together I dont think one shred of truth would come out of their mouths.
      They would still be lying and rationalizing they are behavior to one another .

    • They would hate it because they could not stand the competition.
      The traitor used to swear at the TV watching Madmen, because he hated Don Draper for being a cheater (probably hated him more for being such a successful womaniser and making oodles of money).

  • Mine liked to tell me how hard he’s working at making his relationship work with the OW. I have finally shut that shit down.

    Example: I tried to tell my ex how awful it was for him to roll his eyes at me when I had been upset (about anything,a not just him), or had been trying to discuss adult things with him. I was always met with a smirk, or an eye-roll. He said, “I know! I catch myself doing that with OW, so I’m working on it.”

    Ouch! I didn’t need to know he was trying to be perfect for SnuggleBoobs.

    Later on, I had the thought that, “If he’s having to catch himself, the OW must be confronting him on his behaviour.” That made me feel a bit better, picturing him screwing up and her giving him a Mommy lecture on how to behave.

    The therapist who met him said one word about him afterwards to me … “Infantile”.

    • Champ, I got that. STBX said OW was his soulmate.
      “I want to be a better man for her.” He said.
      My reply “you are as good a man as she deserves.”
      I think he thought it was a compliment.

  • I have a “Never ague truth with stupid” sign posted on my desk. It has been a fabulous reminder for me to not waste another second on those who refuse to understand basic decency.

  • My husband of 36 years ghosted me so he could be ” happy”. Walked out. Left. Denied ANY involvement with an OW. I was just crazy dontcha’ know?

    Found out 2 mos later that he had been carrying on for over a year with his fraternity “li’l sister”.

    He called to discuss a kitchen table agreement that wouldn’t involve lawyers and if I didn’t sign, he’d take my pension. Very matter of fact. I was crushed and came back with, “I know you’ve been spending time with and are sneaking off to Paris with married (for 30 yrs) adultress.

    20 seconds of silence. Then, “So what?, I have friends. Can we discuss the guest list for son’s wedding?”

    I shoulda called her husband right then and there. Instead, I just cried and cried to my 85 year old mom.

  • What still strikes me now that we are divorced is how he stills acts SMUG toward me… like somehow, just getting away from me was all he really wanted (you know, because I’m THAT awful).

    But I flip it around now… he’s smug because that is ALL HE’S GOT NOW. I saw behind the mask. I exposed him for the pathological lying bisexual whore that he is. I kept my house. I kept my 401K and savings. He has to pay me a settlement and child support.

    The mindfucks were endless and exhausting with this guy… because all he wants/needs is CONTROL. And that perception is what proves to me daily that he is disordered and living a life that is only made tolerable by his perceptions (fucked up though they are).

    I’m single. I’m not dating. I’m parenting a great kid. I’m healing. I’ll take this ANY DAY over what I just survived. Pity the next one up to bat for the mindfuck games. I’m out.

    • The smugness comes from his knowledge that he smeared you to everyone that knows you.
      You should set things straight with all those people.

  • My albatross could not understand why we did not just immediately become the best of friends the moment he walked out. In his mind I was already relegated to cake on the side. He asked me to come see his fab new apartment, with all his cool new furniture – i declined to see where he fucked his married girlfriend.

    Every year I put on a “Thanks-weenie Hallow-giving” dinner party. A huge ghoulish themed thanksgiving meal for all our friends and the house decorated as a haunted mansion. It was an enormous amount of work and of course I did it all. About a month after he moved out he said “can’t you see us all together celebrating Thanks-weenie again some day?” I was utterly stunned and asked “Would your girlfriend be there?”. I could tell he could not understand the look of horror on my face so he just scuttled away.

    He also looked completely shocked and confused when I asked for the house key back. You’ve been paid off, it’s not yours anymore.

    • Mine has suggested that we take continue to go on our large group vacation together (with his new girlfriend– the one he left me for) in a few months… and that we’ll hang out and do all the same things together but just not be married. It’s mind-boggling.

    • My kids were told, “get use to it, scumbalina gonna be around for rhe next twenty years.” Which was told to me by them.. mmhhmm
      Well alrighty then, grandpadaddy, I guess he will be, given the two just had a baby in June. Lol
      Happy retirement, lets see, assclown will be 73 when kid is 18. If he lives that long.

      • Jean M – My STBX told me our daughter had to ‘get over it.’ He said he watched his mom cheat – it hurt – did he get over it – yes – so our daughter will have to get over it.
        His dad also cheated. His dad left the step-mom to live with a high school child and then went back to step-mom. STBX acted disgusted step-mom took him back.
        But it seems STBX had the same plan in mind for us. He left for 22 y.o. coworker and then was furious I filed. A friend of his said STBX had planned on having his affair and them coming back to me when done.
        No.

  • Oh, CL, your answer with the lawyer? Priceless! Why didn’t I think of that? Oh, I know: I’m just a chump.

    I agree with not engaging and I apply it to all mother f-ers! They fester on attention. Don’t give it to them and watch them drown. It goes beyond cheaters, it applies to all kinds of fucked ups!
    It must be some universal law that makes total sense. Don’t take it personally and don’t attempt to create justice. Things will just solve by themselves. I swear I saw it in action!

  • My soon to be ex, The Worm, is a master at combining projection, gas lighting, and distraction. “You found a recent card from the other woman professing her love for me? What? I can’t control what other people write to me! You’re never happy….and you’re crazy, why don’t you have a better job? Why don’t you back me up when I’m trying to motivated our boys! I make money, I support the family! You work part time! $30,000 a year is not enough! Who are you to question me? Why do you hate me? You have no friends, no life! The nerve!”
    Then dumps a bucket of dirty mop water over my head as I’m leaving……then tries to get me to roll down the car window as I’m driving away. No thanks, buh-bye Worm.
    And hello to everyone here! I’ve been lurking for the past two years after D-day. Nice to be among friends!

    • Welcome Wormfree! 🙂

      I’m sorry you are here but glad you found us!

      I think that, just like Cakeless’ x, we all want to beat your x’s ass too!

      I am sorry that happened to you and you didn’t deserve any of it.

      Move on away from it and don’t let it hurt you anymore. His actions speak more about who and WHAT he is than about you. He blows and deserves what is comin to him…and come it will. You don’t have to wait or watch for it 🙂 only just skip happily away from the misery that is his life legacy.

      We got this! And it be BEAUTIFUL! 🙂

      (((((((WORMFREE)))))))

      • Thanks JeepTess! I filed, he was served. I just need to forge ahead…..He still has the nerve to poke around. Do I still want to divorce……Really? Was that bucket of water supposed to make me want to stay?
        I’m thankful you are all here!!!❤️❤️❤️

        • Wormfree, I am so sorry. And to ask you if you STILL want to divorce after that display? Know you are safe here. We’ll be happy to figuratively show you how to mop up after worm droppings. And no, you don’t want to stay with a bully. You want to walk in the sunshine with the dignity you deserve. Hugs to you.

          • “I will no longer accept manipulative and abusive conduct in my life. I will not accept people who after several years are unwilling or unable to improve on issues, conduct or situations. I will no longer accept being the focus and source of blame for everything in the home. I look forward to your response, just as I am prepared one way or the other to fully resolve this issue. Thank you.”
            A direct quote from the Worm.
            Mind boggling isn’t it?
            Excuse me for the vent, but what used to send me over the edge was the projection. I didn’t put two and two together until I came here. I’d think “WTH? Why is he accusing me of abuse when he just dumped water over my head?” It made me bananas!!!!! Insinuated that I was have an affair with my divorce lawyer. He should win the Academy Award for projection!
            Now he is blocked every which way. Should have done that a long time ago.
            Thank God for all of you here, Chumplady and No Contact!!!!

            • Wormfree–they’re nutters. No other explanation. Worm’s message is a standard case of DARVO–Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim & Offender. Good riddance.

              • Tempest, when I saw DARVO for the first time it was like a ray of light at the end of a long tunnel. I never knew it was a thing that people actually did.
                So many things finally made sense…..

      • WF2017, no contact. Shut that shit down.
        I believe you know this.
        Deworm, deworm… its your world almost EX is just living in it!

  • The only way to win is to not play with these folks. Poking the crazy with a stick gets you nowhere good, and words DO hurt. In my life now, the only time I will engage with the disordered is if I’m getting paid for it. And even then it’s verbal jiu jitsu, it’s just that I don’t have any personal feelings about it.

    What I came to understand? They enjoy the mindfucks. Our normal emotional responses to an abnormal situation are like sex for them. Getting us all riled confirms for them that we’re weak and beneath them. Don’t give it to em, chumps. Go gray rock. Don’t provide them with fuel for the crazy train.

  • My Xh has been juggling 2 girlfriends for a while now- OW1 and OW3-and recently the shit hit the fan. OW1 found out that he spent NYE interstate with OW3- because it was on facebook! and left furious messages in Sharpie for my oldest daughter to find when I dropped her at her dad’s house. And then he rang ME looking for sympathy…. bearing in mind that we are discussing women who broke up my marriage-and that OW1 used to be an employee of ours. He also apparently told OW 3 on the phone that she was too untrusting….He is a pod person, he will always be a pod person. All i can do is shield my kids from the fallout he creates in every relationship. I said to my 10yo that her dad might be in a bad mood because OW1 had broken up with him, and she did the most epic eye roll ever seen. ” Why can’t he just go out with someone like normal people?”she asked. i think she’s doing fine.

  • Long time chump, first time commenter.
    My whores whisperer started treating me horribly and then used my reaction to justify his behavior. That is what they do. It’s a game and we chumps are always on the losing end until they’re out of our lives for good. Alas, for those of us who procreated with these folks, they will never fully be out of our lives… And often times they use our poor children as tools against us.
    The whores whisperer left me while pregnant because I was a “yeller” and he couldn’t stand being yelled at. It wasn’t that I was responding to being called a nut bag for wanting access to our finances, or getting the silent treatment when asking if he was having an affair or the fact that he suggested I let him fuck other women the day my grandfather passed… None of that mattered. Just my “yelling”. I was a weeping ball of crazy mess. (Or moping, depressed, crazy b as he called me) It’s a sheer miracle that my baby girl turned out okay.
    He was cool beans while I was quickly coming undone. I knew he was cheating. He denied it. And there’s nothing worse than knowing the truth but having no proof, just a gut wrenching instinct and a series of behaviors that scream CHEAT!!!! Anyway. Same story different day. It wasn’t until I was sexually suitable again that he acted toward reconciliation. He promised he didn’t cheat and was just in a dark place and needed space.
    Made a mistake, welcomed him back, mostly out of loniness and to give our children a family.
    Had a pap.
    I somehow contracted a deadly strain of HPV since my last pap. In fact I’ve never tested positive for HPV. Ever. We’ve been married 10 years.
    Apparently I need to get a pap every six months as this particular strain has about a 48% chance of developing into cervical cancer and or uterine cancer with 14 months of initial infection.
    You’d think this would initiate a confession? Nope. WW told me the test must be wrong and suggested I get another pap. My Dr assured me that although some strains can lie dormant for years, this typically isn’t one of them. He encouraged me to press my husband for the truth as he too suspected infidelity. He also said the OW (if there is one) needs to know she has it and is exposing it to others. He eventually admitted to an affair but will give me no details as it is ‘none of my business’. Yeah. He’s a real douche bag.

    • So glad you posted Tracy. Huge hugs to you. What he did to your health is heinous. No one deserves that abuse. Please post again.

  • Long time chump, first time commenter.
    My whores whisperer started treating me horribly and then used my reaction to justify his behavior. That is what they do. It’s a game and we chumps are always on the losing end until they’re out of our lives for good. Alas, for those of us who procreated with these folks, they will never fully be out of our lives… And often times they use our poor children as tools against us.
    The whores whisperer left me while pregnant because I was a “yeller” and he couldn’t stand being yelled at. It wasn’t that I was responding to being called a nut bag for wanting access to our finances, or getting the silent treatment when asking if he was having an affair or the fact that he suggested I let him fuck other women the day my grandfather passed… None of that mattered. Just my “yelling”. I was a weeping ball of crazy mess. (Or moping, depressed, crazy b as he called me) It’s a sheer miracle that my baby girl turned out okay.
    He was cool beans while I was quickly coming undone. I knew he was cheating. He denied it. And there’s nothing worse than knowing the truth but having no proof, just a gut wrenching instinct and a series of behaviors that scream CHEAT!!!! Anyway. Same story different day. It wasn’t until I was sexually suitable again that he acted toward reconciliation. He promised he didn’t cheat and was just in a dark place and needed space.
    Made a mistake, welcomed him back, mostly out of loniness and to give our children a family.
    Had a pap.
    I somehow contracted a deadly strain of HPV since my last pap. In fact I’ve never tested positive for HPV. Ever. We’ve been married 10 years.
    Apparently I need to get a pap every six months as this particular strain has about a 48% chance of developing into cervical cancer and or uterine cancer with 14 months of initial infection.
    You’d think this would initiate a confession? Nope. WW told me the test must be wrong and suggested I get another pap. My Dr assured me that although some strains can lie dormant for years, this typically isn’t one of them. He encouraged me to press my husband for the truth as he too suspected infidelity. He also said the OW (if there is one) needs to know she has it and is exposing it to others. He eventually admitted to an affair but will give me no details as it is ‘none of my business’. Yeah. He’s a real douche bag.

    • Is this a well known phenomenon amongst pregnant women – that their baby’s father cheats? I have no kids, so I have never been a party to these conversations. I get so murdery thinking about a guy getting a woman pregnant and then while she is vulnerable cheating. It must be biological, but the anecdotal evidence of it here is sickening. Just because it’s “biology” doesn’t make it alright. The depths to which a cheater will go actually still surprise me – even a year post-chomping.

      • There is some data male serial cheaters first start when their wife is pregnant. Could be because they are losing kibbles to wife’s attention to her pregnancy, or because they find their pregnant wife “ugly” (as Trump claimed). Odious, either way.