Dear Chump Lady, Why does he hate me?

Hi Chump Lady,

My ex cheated with Schmoopie, up-ed and left what I thought was the perfect life, home, and family, to move three hours away from me and my three amazing young girls to move in with a twice-divorced home-wrecking whore and her two kids.

I’ve been fighting him now in court and through attorneys for three years. While my heart is full of joy and love today, I keep asking myself — why does he hate me so much? Why does he feel the need to destroy me and my character? Why does he ALWAYS do the wrong thing regarding the kids? Why the venom towards my parents, my nephews, his own godson, my entire family who did nothing but love him? He’s made it his mission in life to make me out to be the bad guy.

I supported his ass through thick and thin. I still do. The legal system is so fucked up, that he’s only made to pay for 25% of the kids. That doesn’t even begin to cover the cost of even one of my children. I’ve come out on the other side and am stronger then ever. I’ve gotten myself to the point where I KNOW I can conquer anything I put my mind to. I don’t need him for anything!

I still have that burning question though — Why does he hate me? What the fuck did I do, aside from being a loyal, loving, caring wife and mother who has always supported his sorry ass? I’ve read that cheaters have to do that in order to sleep at night, but WTF! Can you help me solve this mystery?

Jen

Dear Jen,

I don’t know, Jen. It’s one of the Great Fuckwit Mysteries. I imagine there is a sphinx somewhere and if we could only answer the Cheater Riddle, the sphinx won’t strangle and devour us. Which creature speaks with one voice, but becomes four-footed and two-footed and three-footed? (Answer: “WE’RE JUST FRIENDS!”)

Haters hate. This is the chump cue to be introspective and examine what you did to drive him to loathe you. My guess is consequences. If you’ve been in court for three years, apparently you did not take his “abandon the family” thing lightly. Being any sort of obstacle to fuckwit happiness makes you Public Enemy Number One. How could you, Jen? What, did you ask for more child support or something?

Forgive my cynicism. I just accept hate as a given when divorcing a fuckwit. I know we’re all supposed to aspire to conscious uncoupling (not to be confused with unconscious coupling, which is more of a Bill Cosby thing). Don’t think ill of the other parent, wish them well, share Thanksgiving, go on Carnival cruises together… There is this weird societal benchmark that to succeed at divorce you must part friends. So you probably came to this with the wrong set of expectations — that you would part, divvy up the stuff, and be all adult about it. Heck, you probably thought that since he WANTED this divorce and you GAVE him a divorce, he’d be civil. What’s his beef? He’s got a fabulous new life with Schmoopie. Why is he hating on his former nephew?

A couple theories on why he hates you… (I’m indulging in untangling the skein of fuckupedness. Not recommended practice.)

1. ) Consequences. It’s one thing to ask for a divorce. It’s another thing entirely to get it. Lawyers send these horrible legal bills. You lose your stuff. If the cheater can’t have cake (All the kibbles! No consequences!), then they’d prefer an uncontested divorce in which you absolve them from all responsibility. Like children.

You didn’t do that. Schmoopie sparkles are gonna cost him and that’s SO UNFAIR!

2.) Triangles are so fun. You serve a useful purpose as Obstacle. Anything wrong in Schmoopieville, it’s all your fault. What with your incessant, irrational demands that he pay for his children. But it’s okay, your centrality as the Evil Ex keeps the Other Woman off balance trying to please him. (See how AWESOME I am compared to your ex? I NEVER ask you for money! My children live on air! Watch me contort myself into tiny shapes of obsequiousness!)  If you just removed your villainy and left them to it, well… they’d have each other. Ugh.

3.) It’s What The Disordered Do. I recently had the pleasure of interviewing Bill Eddy (lawyer, mediator over at the High Conflict Institute) for the D.C. Bar and he said the telltale sign you’re dealing with a disordered person, is blameshifting.

Eddy says people with personality disorders stand out in three ways. First, “they really lack self-awareness of their behavior and its impact on others.” Second, says Eddy, disordered people don’t change their behavior, no matter how self-defeating, even when it’s in their own best interest to do so. Third, they are obsessed with blaming others.

“[High conflict people] are really stuck in a narrow range of dysfunctional behavior that they repeat and repeat. And you can’t change them for the better. Just forget about it!”

The biggest giveaway that you’re dealing with a personality disorder, says Eddy, is that they “blame others for all of their own problems. Since they don’t reflect on their own behavior, they have incredible energy for scrutinizing everyone else’s behavior.”

Sound familiar?

I know it’s absolutely gobsmacking that someone can cheat on you, lie to you, blame you for their abuse, and still have the delusional chutzpah to think THEY are the aggrieved party. But they do.

My advice here at CL is trust that they suck. Is it baffling that they suck? Is it unjust that they suck? Yes. But the most important thing about the suck is getting AWAY from the suck.

You’re free of him. Who cares if he hates you? Let him hate. Wave your fingers at him and smile. Abide the court order. Hold him accountable. Don’t give him any kibbles of centrality, and build your new life as sane parent to your three girls — three awesome girls he’s missing out on, the loser.

We’ll close out with Ms. Jill Scott, “Hate On Me, Hater.” Turn up the volume, Jen. And good luck.

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Gonegirl
Gonegirl
6 years ago

Love, love, love this Chump Lady! I wonder the same thing daily. Why does he and his whole family hate me?

Quite simply, all their dirty secrets got aired out in court and their image of the “perfect” family was shattered.

Not my problem, if you didn’t want people to know, you shouldn’t have done it.

They are ALL personality disordered and they suck.

Leavingthecrapbehind
Leavingthecrapbehind
6 years ago
Reply to  Gonegirl

I blew the whistle on Pervy Pants’ abnormal family. Posers….all of them! Flag waving….church going middle class folks….with trim bushes. But…..their dirty little secrets are enough to keep Sigmund Freud busy for a decade. When I say “dirty secrets”- I mean get the Clorox bleach out dirty!

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago

You HAVE to be terrible to make their narrative make sense.

My nowdeadcheater’s entire life narrative made perfect sense if only you accept the premise that I was a terrible wife who forced him into marriage, refused to have the 7 kids he wanted, defied him and denied him (things like being a professional mountain climber or ditching his profession for a gig driving dumptruck) but OW was going to do whatever he needed to be HAPPY.

Upon scrutiny of his narrative, I asked him when I defied him (I lived in a city he chose, drove a car he chose and worshipped in a church he chose) and he answered “you use bleach in the laundry”…yes, I had 3 little kids with muddy/poopy socks and such…I did do that. I hope you are adequately horrified.

Skein of fuckedupness

nodancing
nodancing
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

It really is that petty. I bought a new trash can for our kitchen. Marriage over.

FreeNow
FreeNow
6 years ago
Reply to  nodancing

No Dancing, first I have to say your Mister Dog icon is perfect! One of my favorite children’s books. Its message is on point for chumps.

Second, your buying the wrong trash can reminded me of mine telling me I was always entertaining and he didn’t like that.

It was news to me. He would stroke his ego with family, friends and colleagues by showing them his “perfect life” without having to lift a finger. I was a professional chef and event planner so he only needed to show up and bask in the compliments.

I planned, invited, shopped, prepped, cleaned, cooked, hostessed, cleaned up and even e-mailed photos and videos to attendees (good little chump). For him to then say that was actually one of the reasons for wanting to leave floored me.

They are so disordered!

Now I cook and entertain to my heart’s content. I love the people in my life, cooking and sharing authentic conversation around the table. The only difference is Mr. I’m Never Happy Pants ? isn’t there with his unhappiness, judgment and lies.

Life is good being cheater free.

nodancing
nodancing
6 years ago
Reply to  FreeNow

Life is better cheater free and yay! someone finally understood Mister Dog. I belong to myself!

FreeNow
FreeNow
6 years ago
Reply to  nodancing

Indeed!

Much Better Off Now
Much Better Off Now
6 years ago
Reply to  nodancing

Crispin’s Crispian- one of my absolute favorite characters. Seeing this photo reminds me of my grandfather- he was a wonderful, honorable man.

I went off and got a master’s degree, leaving him “at home with nothing”. Improving myself got me dumped. Which, ironically, furthered my self-improvement…

Much Better Off Now
Much Better Off Now
6 years ago

**reminds me of my grandfather because he would always read me the book

Magneto
Magneto
6 years ago
Reply to  nodancing

I put my now x husband in the trash can, got a new kitchen.

ReDefiningMe
ReDefiningMe
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

“You HAVE to be terrible to make their narrative make sense.”

That’s it. Perfectly in a nutshell. And since they MUST believe their own bullshit, it’s a whirlwind of crazy. I’m seeing the “I hate you – it’s your fault” dynamic in my FOO right now, so ChumpLady isn’t just for marriage chumps, this stuff applies to all kinds of chumpy relationships. I had several professionals tell me that my older sister has “untreated mental health issues”, but her rage, blame, insults, and expectations of perfection were so normal to me – hell, I married a guy just like her! And now, her behavior has hurt people, over and over, and SHE is perfect, and her shitty choices – and now consequences – are MY fault.

Consequences suck. And when folks can’t look in a mirror and own that, they blame us chumps. And we dance and dance, with our futile “I can change and fix and love others into loving me!!!” But when we drop over from exhaustion, finally realizing that they are NEVER going to change because it’s never their fault and they simply don’t want to…then those consequences start piling up, and Chumpy takes the blame. Until we are DONE. And finally realize it’s not ours to take, and it never was.

ChumpLady, you have helped me more than you can imagine. I pray I’m raising my two kids NOT to make these mistakes, and that they are seeing their mommy fight to be less chumpy and more mighty every day. Hugs to everyone here.

Chumpedbutbetternow
Chumpedbutbetternow
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

HA! Mine said, “You don’t hang up my shirts” as the reason he wanted a divorce. Can’t make this stuff up!

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago

Geezus – hilarious

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago

When he made endless complaints, I used to have magical moments when his arguments went from “possibly reasonable” way into “absurd” and in the absurdity, I was reassured that it all had nothing to do with me.

Shirts…yes. Cheater was in the military and wore uniforms. During one era, however, he needed to wear civilian clothes. He had a very specific routine with his clothes and instructed me to never touch or involve myself with the clothes he set aside for the dry cleaners. I laundered the remainder. During our 2 MC sessions, he told the MC that “at this very moment there is a bag of dry cleaning in my closet she has not taken to the cleaners”. Wow, I sucked

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

That’s what probably ended my marriage too. Schoompie coworker would pick up my husband’s dry cleaning and deliver it at our house on her way home after work. Once my MIL was there and she acted like I was being ridiculous to question why Schmoopie was so eager to help my husband with his laundry. I was always getting unnecessarily jealous about stuff like that in his family’s eyes.

Patsy
Patsy
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

What did the MC say? Please describe his or her face.

KibbleFree_MightyMe
KibbleFree_MightyMe
6 years ago
Reply to  Patsy

I hope he or she held a hand up to his face and said, “Bitch, please.”

LOL!

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  Patsy

Raised eyebrows, forehead titled in a bit, trying to suppress a laugh

Magneto
Magneto
6 years ago

Mine said he couldn’t POSSIBLY LIVE with someone as RUDE as me. {After 33 years.}
>> guilty… 😀 – Especially when being compared to the “woman of high caliber” the OW was.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

Yeah, I wasn’t friendly enough when he called home on his trips with schmoopie coworker. I needed to be more cheerful about it, I guess.

ICanSeeTheMehComing!
ICanSeeTheMehComing!
6 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

She couldn’t be too high caliber if she was fucking another woman’s husband. Just saying.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

That’s funny, as rude as you, it took 33 years to come to realize how rude you are?

I was accused of being a pathological liar by a pathological liar after 20 plus years.
X was seriously concerned for my mental health, he diagnosed me as bipolar for questioning a receipt for porn while staying in a hotel in Reno, which he denied even when I had the hotel on the phone confirming it was his porn in his room. Nothing suspicious there, just me being bipolar.

The Ex-orcist
The Ex-orcist
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Yeah, I was bi-polar as well. I didn’t hang up pictures???
Gee whiz, if I could have had a partner equal to me I would’ve been the luckiest girl ever.
I mean, aside from hanging up a picture, that is.???

Kar marie
Kar marie
6 years ago
Reply to  The Ex-orcist

Asswipe never hung pictures except his car crap or awards he spent thousands of dollars on mounting his business shit and bitched at me if i bought a dollar store frame. I hung family pictures his mine and ours! Him never! But hed be damned if i took them with me!! Now he proudly displays those pictures like trophies of his good deeds. Asshole. Best line i heard from him….i didnt know what he wanted even before he did. Whore juice did cause shes in sync with him and i wasnt. Asshole!!!

Valerie
Valerie
6 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

Mine said he had an affair because “You wanted to sell MY house”. We had a 5K/month mortgage and he was losing his job, and I suggested we sell OUR house and purchase something more modest. What a tool. He has now been married and divorced at least 2 more times since I divorced his stupid ass.

Chumpy UK
Chumpy UK
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

What a shitty wife you were!! Me too… I bought mature cheddar cheese not mild – I’m a bitch like that.

Mine left an owned (with mortgage) farm and teenage child, for a twice divorced, three kids by two fathers, female and now lives in social housing without his name on the rent book; and just about to lose his police officer job for fraud and embezzlement plus has debt collectors chasing him as he purchased too many pressies for Slaggy-Anne and her kids!!! I hope she buys mild cheddar.

MightyE
MightyE
6 years ago
Reply to  Chumpy UK

Lol. I didn’t wash the dishes correctly. Oh the horror!

Flowerlady
Flowerlady
6 years ago
Reply to  Chumpy UK

Mild cheddar. My ex once threw a tantrum because I bought havarti (my favorite) ONE TIME instead of provolone (his favorite) like usual. What is it with cheese?

NoMoreNarcs
NoMoreNarcs
6 years ago
Reply to  Flowerlady

Cheese, pasta, laundry, and dishwasher loading. These are Big Recurring Themes here at Chump Nation…

I mean, we all have our preferences and control issues, but to frame worthiness around any of these is (in hindsight) hilariously tragic.

Amalie
Amalie
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreNarcs

I was told by fuckface ” don’t put all that smelly stuff in the toilet, I like to smell my own shit”? Seriously can’t make this up.

Waffles
Waffles
6 years ago
Reply to  Amalie

Uggh. Lemme guess, sounds like the type who wouldn’t do the (needed) courtesy flush either. ?

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreNarcs

If I had someone shop for my groceries, then put them away and make my supper, pastas, what ever kind of cheese (except American, right Shelby?) whatever, broken noodles, under or over cooked, then load the dishwasher and do my laundry, I’d be forever grateful and wouldn’t be able to thank them enough.

They are so unappreciative.

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

TOTALLY agree! We did all our shopping together. Because we were a “modern, equal” couple. I wasn’t suffering through that shit alone! But if he were the shopper/chef/laundress (which he was and I told him he could leave my laundry for me!) I wouldn’t complain. And if it felt hard done by I would either make a request for the pasta/cheese/dishwasher configurations that pleased me and if it didn’t materialize DO. IT. MYSELF! It’s really not hard. It just shows how pathetic they are. It makes me angry but I want to laugh at the same time because of just HOW PATHETIC it really is! Like, do you tell people that know you are divorced that shit?! Or are you embarrassed just thinking about telling your boss or your mother or a complete and utter stranger “My wife sucked! She bought the wrong cheese once and she never broke the spaghetti into the correct fractions and let the tub of cream cheese fall out of the fridge too much and so I had to go whore fucking. You can see she deserved that right?!”
???????????

Attie
Attie
6 years ago
Reply to  Sad Shelby

Ha, the Twat didn’t like the way I loaded the dishwasher either. And I keep a mop and bucket in the kitchen so I could sweep and wash it down after dinner. THAT wasn’t allowed. He would throw it into the garden and rant for ages. I remember he once went on a rant because he was “tired of eating the same old staples” all the time. You know, rice, noodles, potatoes etc. So I told him to name an alternative I would fucking fly to America to get it for him. That shut his loud gob up. I am a good cook and very innovative as I love to experiment. Enjoy your KFC with schmoopie Asshole,

mila
mila
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Me too! At this point just cook for me, clean house for me, take care of my clothes, do the grocery shopping, pay the bills and I will be forever yours.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

My new husband does all the grocery shopping, cooking and laundry…sometimes he over buys terribly, but I think to myself “am I going to complain?” hell no Im not going to complain !

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Totally, I always say I love everything anyone cooks for me, just because I didn’t have to cook it.

TwinsDad
TwinsDad
6 years ago
Reply to  kiwichump

Right-o, UX! “If you loved me you’d know what I want!”

NotYourPlanB
NotYourPlanB
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Oy! These are both making me laugh out loud and wince a little at what similar mindfuckery we’ve all had to face.

I’d head to the grocery store and ask “what can I get for you?” He’d say “I’m fine.” So I’d shop, come home, and he’d rifle through the bags and start whining about how I didn’t get him any snacks or special treats. I’d reply “I asked, you said you didn’t want anything”. He’d get upset that I didn’t know him well enough to GUESS what he wanted.

MC asked STBX why he was unhappy with the marriage, and he brought up this example. Plus “she doesn’t vacuum very often” and other drivel. She looked him straight in the eye and said “Those are just surface irritations. What are the REAL reasons?” Crickets.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  NotYourPlanB

You don’t remember??? how long have we been married..?
walk away, sulking.

This, when he asked me what his favorite pie is, I said apple, look of hurt and confusion on his face.., no, pecan.
I’m sure he had told me it was apple. He most likely did tell me it was apple.
An excuse to sulk and feel sorry for himself while letting me know how incompetent I am.

UXworld
UXworld
6 years ago
Reply to  NotYourPlanB

The old “well, I shouldn’t have to TELL you what I want . . .” mindfuck. An oldie but a goodie.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  NotYourPlanB

Mine always complained I didn’t have enough variety in salad dressings, so I bought a whole bunch of small bottles of various kinds so he could have his pick. Then he got pissed that I was trying to make a joke out of how ridiculous he was being. LOL

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
6 years ago
Reply to  Flowerlady

I’m clearly a chump because I’d be appreciative of any cheese you bought me. Cheese is my first and truest love. Except American. If you bought me American I’d definitely have to leave you. Sorry, not sorry. ??

honeyandthehomewrecker
honeyandthehomewrecker
6 years ago
Reply to  Sad Shelby

I, too, am in love with cheese. Honey was too. I made cheese into an art-form at most mealtimes. In fact, I cooked amazing meals, cleaned the house, set appointments, did all the banking, raised the kids, and generally just let the man show up to his own life with everything taken care of. He acted inept at things with a big smile so I’d take that task on too until I literally was buried in tasks for both of us.

So when he left, I didn’t hear anything like these stories about how much I sucked for not fulfilling some maniacal desire he had to straighten the kitchen towels or to make perfect stacks out of the canned goods. I got ‘you did nothing wrong.’ I got ‘you were a great wife.’

I can’t decide which sucks more. If I ‘did it all wrong’ in his warped mind, he’d at least have created the illusion of a reason to abandon his wife and 2 babies for a stripper 9 states away. But when you’re told you’ve done everything right? That’s its own kind of mind-effery. Because, yay my reward for awesome wify-ness is total abandonment and lifelong trauma?! Yay me!

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Chumpy UK

I became a shitty wife, mother and housekeeper, I didn’t park correctly, I pulled up too close to the house in the garage.
I didn’t clean out his closet.
I never loved him
I didn’t make spaghetti often enough…,
I wasn’t June Cleaver
to name a few of my faults

Leavingthecrapbehind
Leavingthecrapbehind
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

I was too old. (Although we were both born the same week…same year). Can’t figure out why I wasn’t too old when he married me?????

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

I got bored at horse shows.

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

The garden was unkempt . He was a plant physiology PhD dropout who kept promising to build a super veggie garden, but did nothing except spray roundup where he was one day going to build it. Never happened in 8 years there. Didn’t want me to make one because he was going to.
He didn’t have any friends because he was ashamed of the state of our garden. He had no friends when I met him.
I was no fun at Christmas: he stole the kids chocolates on year from under the Christmas tree. He stole all the chocolates I’d bought to take to his family’s Christmas another year. Yep, I was no fun at Christmas.
I made him live like a pig: he came home morning tea, lunch and dinner to a hottie warming up his LayZboy, a warm fire and food served to him in his chair. I did all the housework and laundry for him and his kids. He never lifted a finger at home. Cheated with the whore with 20 cats, no bathroom, no oven, just a hotplate, no washing machine, who never cleaned and only showered and did her laundry once a week at her grandmother’s house. Cheated with her while I was stuck here with his son.
I hurt his feelings when during our first miscarriage (there were 5 more to come), I collected the miscarriage tissue and wanted to bury it at the roots of the tree he had bought me as a present. I hurt his feelings because I hadn’t discussed it with him before having the impulse to collect the tissue instead of letting it go down the toilet.
“You will never hurt me like this again” he said in MC, and blamed the cheating on this. Of course, 7 months earlier when he demanded a menage a trois with his ex he claimed that I was asexual, not a peep about hurting his feelings.
Trust him to pick the most painful way to hurt and blame me.

They hate us because they know what they are doing is hateful. Projection.

mila
mila
6 years ago
Reply to  kiwichump

So much resonates . One thing is for sure, I will never ever go to the extent of pleasing someone and disregarding what my needs are. Never.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  kiwichump

Kiwi, Im so sorry about what he said to you during your pregnancy loss…you did the right thing.

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Kiwichump.
I am so sorry for the sad loss of each of your pregnancies.
The closure you choose for each one was very beautiful.
I hope your strength of character brings peace to your heart.
The way others have treated you is so wrong, so unkind.
Kiwichump, you stand above them in CN’s eyes.
Xxx

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Unicornnomore, what makes no sense is that when I did this, he seemed to think it was a good idea, and that we did the same with the subsequent miscarriages because he encouraged me to do it. It was never a problem until 7 months into MC post DDay, I had done everything humanely possible to be the perfect pick me dancer so he had to think of something to be the victim. To me that’s the really evil part. If he had really felt that way when it happened he would have said it or shown it, but he agreed and approved. The tree he bought me is a beautiful NZ native hybrid which was going to be OUR family tree forever, so it was ideal and he said so himself. The evil is to then turn this into an attack and justification for betrayal. He has poisoned everything I thought we had.
It was particularly vicious because I was especially hurt that he cheated with his ex while I was looking after their son and I pointed out how hurtful that was to do to someone who’s tried so hard to have a child without success. It’s an extra special dose of viciousness. The whore knew about all the miscarriages. She came to see me in hospital when I had surgery to try and improve my chances. Now I think she came to gloat while I was laid up defenseless in a bed.
Both of them deserve the viciousness Oscar.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  kiwichump

Kiwi, I just read your first paragraph and burst out laughing, I’m just now catching my breath. So funny, yet sad at the same time. I don’t know why but this just made me laugh so hard, my stomach hurts from laughing..

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_A3-bHo0nk
Brit, I used to call the Traitor Competitive Dad…

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

I think what made me laugh after only reading the first paragraph was it sounds so familiar. X was an expert on everything but did nothing. He bragged about how he was the most educated, he had a Masters degree in Recreation and Physical Education, he never once coached any of the athletic teams our son played on even though he rarely went to work. While my son was in kindergarten and elementary school the teacher asked if he would come in once a week for a half hour to do calisthenics with the children. One classroom, 20 kids for a half hour. He said no, this is after he bragged to the teacher and anyone who would listen that he was a camp counselor for one summer.
The funniest thing or shall I say most embarrassing, is at the end of third grade the third grade classrooms had a picnic and softball game at the end of the year. The Softball game consisted of Dads against the kids who were in the third grade, these kids are approx. eight years old. X would get up to bat and hit the ball out of the field, then when it was his turn to be in the outfield, he’d run and catch the ball and aggressively get these kids out. Meanwhile the other dads, pretended to not to be able to catch the ball, or purposely miss getting the kids out, by accidentally over throwing or whatever. Not X he had to win. As I was standing there a group of teachers walked up to me and asked me to tell my husband to think about who he was playing and to take notice of how the other Dads were letting the kids think they didn’t know how to play. The teachers were upset at how aggressive X was playing and to win. I went to tell X what they said about his playing. X became indignant and said he didn’t care what they thought, he wanted to show his son how well he could play. If that were his real motivation why didn’t he coach his sons teams, or join an adult league or volunteer to play someplace. How about helping the teachers when asked instead of sitting on his ass at home all day. One of many embarrassing moments living with X. I cringe when I think about it.

Chump Advocate - Vickie
Chump Advocate - Vickie
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

I kept some of the notes my son’s father left for me:

“A steak is not a dinner – a steak is a lack of forethought and planning”
“Ice-Skating is not a sport- Baseball is a sport” Of course, I went ice-skating with my son, his dad signed him up for baseball

He told me the gf before me made potatoes for dinner every night and he never wanted to see a potato again. Of course , 3 months in I heard ” Why don’t YOU ever make potatoes?

I made coffee every morning. Every morning, for years, he would pour a cup, make a face and spit it into the sink and dump his cup out. EVERY MORNING And I was foolish enough to keep making an extra cup for him!

If you think the Hate or antics to drive a wedge between you and anything he learns that you enjoy will ever end, in my case it didn’t. I was lucky to have the silent treatment for over 20 years but he just made his presence felt after 23 years when I began living closer to my son than he does. They just hate to lose any of their possessions at any time, EVEN IF THEY DON’T WANT THEM. Sorry. They’re truly twisted creatures.

Ciaobella
Ciaobella
6 years ago

Every time I would make a steak or some sort of beef the a-hole would say it smelled “musky” and not eat it. I finally got fed up, threw the food in the trash. I went into the kitchen only to find Musky Man eating the food out of the garbage can.
Also, I found a list Crazypants wrote about me. These were the reasons I was a bad wife:
1. I hated fluorescent lights
2. I read too many books
3. I parked the car wrong
4. I refused to get a Brazilian wax
I later saw a picture of the OW on his phone. Of course it was of her crotch. Clearly, the Brazilian wax edict did not apply to her, as it looked like she was sporting a mini Chewbacca between her legs.

Anita
Anita
6 years ago
Reply to  Ciaobella

Ugh ugh ugh, what is with the crotch pictures! Who does that?

marriagedetective
marriagedetective
6 years ago

Damn, this reminds me that every single morning I would get reamed for spraying some hairspray on my hair. He would go around coughing and closing doors and turning on fans saying that “those chemicals are terrible to breathe.” Like I lathered in it or something, but really it was just a few spritzes. I was also told that I shouldn’t wear make-up anymore with the only reason being that it took way too long in the morning. Thing was that I never bothered him with my timeframe in the morning. That was all up to me. I could choose to get up early enough to do my make-up and I always did.

Good grief! I was so paranoid by the time I decided to divorce I didn’t know which way was up.

ICanSeeTheMehComing!
ICanSeeTheMehComing!
6 years ago

So he could taste the arsenic in the coffee, eh? Just kidding… but I hope I made you laugh. What a joyful life you must have now while someone else takes on the abuse… because you know he hasn’t changed.

Chump Advocate - Vickie
Chump Advocate - Vickie
6 years ago

Thanks. It was pretty peaceful until i made the error of trying to live closer in proximity to my now adult son than he did. Suddenly after 20 years, his need to divide and conque resurfaced with a vengence.
The good thing was that he was caught cheating on wife number 2 when my son was in college so I didn’t have to be the one to burst my son’s illusions about what a great guy his dad was.

I never really caught him cheating, probably bc i was too busy raising my child and we didn’t have cell phones or social media barely internet — but i definitely knew he he was “different’ when i left. I didn’t have the language for personality disordered at that time.

The weird part is i think he will always probably be the sparklier parent bc I was the one that did the heavy lifting of parenting which is not always as pretty as the face of a Disneyland dad even in adulthood. So now, I am working through some stuff i thought was years in the rear view mirror.

I believe in time it will work itself out and end with my son having a more realistic view of both of his parents as human beings. But the most important part for me to remember is ‘they do not change’. Trust that he sucks ….. forever.

KibbleFree_MightyMe
KibbleFree_MightyMe
6 years ago

Chump Advocate Vickie – what a dramatic little bitch he is! Actually spitting out coffee every morning?? Then why keep going back for more, insane drama-queen?? I feel like I’d bitch-slap that twit if I could. Seriously.

I hope your life is a billion times more peaceful and drama-free now that you’re rid of that douchebag. He can go f-off with his gf, potatoes, and swill coffee. Ass-clown.

I also hope every cup of coffee you have is bliss. You’ve earned it and deserve it, chick. (((Hugs!)))

Rickb89
Rickb89
6 years ago

She should have pissed in the coffee every day

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  Rickb89

Oh yeah!!
If they really hated these things,if this really made them miserable, at least we’d have the consolation to think the bastards are miserable all the time. But they just pretend to hate the things we do to make US miserable…

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
6 years ago
Reply to  Rickb89

I had been thinking about some other potentially useful additives. Even if one limited oneself to the spice cabinet, there might have been some good ones–powdered jalepeno, ground mustard seed?

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

I broke spaghetti in thirds, not halves. Sometimes the cream cheese container fell out of the refrigerator when he opened it. I sucked.

Mehphista
Mehphista
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

You utter wench….only heretics break spaghetti! ?

Mr Fab sports a beard and mustache. Serving soup, I would sometimes give him a (gasp! shock! horror!) actual SOUP SPOON. This is would result in A Brisk Standing Up, a Marching To The Kitchen, and the Bringing back of the Correct Spoon (a teaspoon, lest his upper lip hair come in contact with food).

I left all the kitchen stuff behind. Except the Wrong Spoon, as Kiddo and I now call it. It lives in our Apocalypse Bag, which we have due to living in a seismic area.

happy summer, Lady T!

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Tempest,

Breastfeeding wrong ?!

(Speechless) ?‍♀️

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper
6 years ago
Reply to  Peacekeeper

I am sorry Tempest, reading further I see it is Finding Bliss, er, I guess her cheater, that the Breast Feeding wrong (??) question goes to.

I am sure he would have an answer as most clearly he has breastfed before!

We Mothers stand to be corrected.

When the baby would cry shortly after a feeding my cheater always said, ” Give her a little more”
I replied ” You give her a little more”!
?

junglechump
junglechump
6 years ago
Reply to  Peacekeeper

if mine would have been at birth of our daughter i am sure he would have said i was birthing wrong!!

NotYourPlanB
NotYourPlanB
6 years ago
Reply to  Peacekeeper

Love the reply to your cheater, Peacekeeper!

Breastfeeding wrong, that’s nuts!!!

I got the 3rd degree for potty training our kids. They were ready to learn, and had to be out of diapers for their daycare. They had a few accidents on his watch (he was too busy texting on his iPhone to see their signals), so I was told I’d done irreversible damage to them by starting so soon. And he’d slap them in diapers whenever he had them, confusing the heck out of the poor kids. His Schmoopie reassured him I’d done very wrong. For the record, my kids ROCKED the training, it just wasn’t perfect overnight.

I say: whoever is stuck with all the diaper changes gets to choose when to potty train!

lovedandlost
lovedandlost
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I thought I was the worst because he hated how I loaded/unloaded the dishwasher and that I bought whole wheat bread! How is it that I didn’t come up with a list of his faults – oh yeah, he didn’t have any…

lovedandlost
lovedandlost
6 years ago
Reply to  lovedandlost

Brit, thank you for the mental picture of my ex getting smacked by the cupboard door over and over again!

GigiG
GigiG
6 years ago
Reply to  lovedandlost

Hey, I loaded the dishwasher incorrectly too! I also left drawers open a centimeter or two instead of making sure they were closed completely and never met a veggie or fruit I could chop the right way. I really sucked.

junglechump
junglechump
6 years ago
Reply to  GigiG

one day i was peeeling a pumkin and he was all annoyed and commenting how wrongly i did it and finally said in rage: “WE think you do things slowly and stupidly”.

to this day i dont know who he meant by “we”, is he a royalty that needs to be addressed in plural?

anyway he was always so critical of me my dear SIL (she has always stood up for me) would call him the “micromanager”

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  GigiG

I had almost forgotten one of my more serious infractions. X traveled out of town so I was in the habit of always closing and locking the doors to the outside when I’d come inside, including the back patio door. It became a habit of mine for my safety.
Without thinking I would lock the doors while he was out side and he’d either have to unlock the door or knock for me to open the door for him to enter.
It would infuriate him, he would be livid and sometimes not speak to me for the entire evening as my punishment…

If I left a cup board door slightly ajar. He’d call me into the kitchen to show me how far I had left the cup board door open. He’d then demonstrate how if he had been walking into the kitchen and not noticed, the door might have hit him in the forehead.
Sometimes he’d just do the demo while glaring at me.
Sadly, I was never fortunate enough to see him smack his head into the cupboard door.

NotYourPlanB
NotYourPlanB
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I loaded the dishwasher wrong. And didn’t own a matching bikini. And didn’t clear the kids toys far enough away from our heaters so clearly I didnt’ care about the kids’ safety (apparently sparks coming out of living room heaters have a 5-foot range). And I had warts so clearly didn’t care about my health (correction: I had a mosquito bite but his views were so deranged he refused to believe that).

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

The stupid as shit thing is if they REALLY hated it that much then why not just say it? When you love your spouse as much as many chumps (and possibly other regular people) do they would try literally anything asked of them to make home life and marriage happier. I know I would have. But instead idiot cheater went and hated on me to the whoremat. Because telling a third party whore all your problems definitely fixes them with your wife. (I’m EXTRA bitter this morning)

MsMachete
MsMachete
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I bought the wrong apples. That he’d never revised and apple preferences ever did not matter. I was the worst. ???

Jenn
Jenn
6 years ago
Reply to  MsMachete

I boiled water wrong. YES! He actually said you are boiling the water wrong.

marriagedetective
marriagedetective
6 years ago
Reply to  Jenn

Apparently I didn’t know how to strike a match correctly. Still continued to pick me dance for years after that one. Ugh.

Hesatthecurb
Hesatthecurb
6 years ago
Reply to  Jenn

My XH ridiculed me for the ‘folding’ motion I used as I added blueberries to muffin batter. I explained it was the proper baking technique and he claimed I was making it up. Did he cook/bake? No need to answer that 😉

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  Jenn

Boiling water wrong, and engaging in breastfeeding wrong, are now my two favorite cheater complaints of all time!!! They’re so fucked up!

FindingBliss
FindingBliss
6 years ago
Reply to  Jenn

Too twisted to believe, but we know they do this. The ex came in one day from having fun and saw me nursing our daughter. He told me I was doing it all wrong. And he would know this how? They love feeling superior.

MsMachete
MsMachete
6 years ago
Reply to  MsMachete

*expressed an apple preference. Dammit.

Sugar Plum
Sugar Plum
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Hah what it is with the danged pasta? I didn’t make his favorite lasagna and baked ziti enough. I was too clean, too perfect. I was smarter than him and that hurt his feelings…his words not mine. Upon reflection after the divorce, I am smarter than him.
He left 4 years ago for the gas station attendant down the street. Guess what, she’s still a gas station attendant who doesn’t know how to cook. The first year before our divorce, when I was giving the finger to no contact, I may or may not have sent him a picture every other month of the lasagna and baked ziti I had made and the neighbors holding forks full up to their mouth eating it. ?

mila
mila
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugar Plum

Ouch pasta! All of a sudden he tells me he dislikes angel hair that was like 1o years ago, soon after he moved out. Took him back. – I know, dumb on my part -. Fast forward 10 years, all of a sudden he doesn’t like cod. Mhmm. Whatever, their hate is simply based on the fact that they will never ever assume any responsibility for their actions. Thus they need someone to place the blame – and that is you and I my friend. Incomprehensible to any sane person. But hey, whoever said these sorry excuses for a human being are sane?

AllOutofKibble
AllOutofKibble
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugar Plum

Sugar Plum, As the self described No Contact evangelist even I find this story hilarious.

Brit, sometimes a kids awesome in action!

Sugar Plum
Sugar Plum
6 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

I’m the NC queen now, but at that time I gave as good as I got from the cheating POS. He tried to break me with his cruel words. He didn’t know who he was F’ing with when I refused to lay down and cry. It was my way of telling him to go F himself. I didn’t need him. I cried, but he never knew that. Bullies are all alike.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugar Plum

I’m guilty of cooking the pasta too long…

Good for you Sugar Plum sending him photos of everyone enjoying your Ziti and Lasagna. Sounds like you have great neighbors.
That must have hurt his poor, little, sensitive, feelings.
Gas station attendant could bring home snacks from the vending machine for supper, Cheetos are almost like Lasagna, right?

Sugar Plum
Sugar Plum
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Lol, yes my neighbors are awesome! They even waved at the camera. Yep Cheetos have cheese, lasagna has cheese, close enough!

blondebarrister
blondebarrister
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugar Plum

I know no contact is what we all strive for … but damn, that is seriously awesome!!! I love that you did that.

Mystique
Mystique
6 years ago

My 3 year old is in the outs with OW right now for calling her spaghetti “yucky.” ???

DChump
DChump
6 years ago
Reply to  Mystique

Lol I love it!! Fuck her and her food!

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Mystique

Mystique, OW sounds like a prize. Is she an adult?

OW’s spaghetti probably is “yucky.”

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

X bought a harmonica, I walked in while he was practicing and started laughing, yes, I actually laughed..
No wonder he found someone different. someone who appreciated a 50 year old man who never played the harmonica before, practicing.

Jen
Jen
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

This is the best thing I’ve read in forever. ????
I think I love you. Hahaha

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

I cursed, X (understandably) was appalled, I should be ashamed of myself, using such language in the presence of someone of such high standards.
He knew it,
I’m white trash, “trailer trash”,
I said “shit,” actual sentence: “I’m tired of your shit.”

Bye Bye Asshat
Bye Bye Asshat
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

I called Asshat an ‘Asshole!’… poor sausage remembers this clearly, probably because it is the only time in over 30 years that I called him anything like this, though he doesn’t seem to recall the background of why I called him an ‘Asshole’, just that I did. Reason for calling him an asshole (like I need one)? I suggested that he begin individual counselling, with the hopes that he might then bring in our teenage boys to help repair his relationship with them (that is a very long story that I won’t distract with right now). He said he was ‘too busy’ – though he found plenty of time for his hobby, as well as spend time with his 24 year younger ho-worker. We are now approaching the four year mark of our youngest son not talking to Asshat, and Asshat wants me to fix this for him. Our children are young adults. Not my job – so he hates me. Go away Asshole!

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Bye Bye Asshat

I’d forgotten your post reminded me, I at one time called X an asshole, I can’t recall exactly why at the moment, I know I wouldn’t have called him an asshole without a reason.
Naturally X was appalled, and wouldn’t forget it.
I understand how your felt with your boys and their father.
I was constantly coming up with suggestions on things he and our son could do together, gathering information on ocean fishing boats, camping, rocket launching, building models, anything to bring them closer. X claimed to like to fish, camp, build models but never did. Our son is intelligent and was fairly good at baseball but X wasn’t interested in anything our son was interested in. X one time told me to leave it alone, that he and our son didn’t have anything in common and he accepted that. X never made an effort to find out what our sons interests were. I knew it hurt my son, he would ask me to talk his father into doing things with him. X refused, the few times he did camp in the back yard with our son, X looked miserable. He’s interaction with our son would be to ridicule him.. I took him to a therapist because it bothered me so much and I could tell it wasn’t good to hear the things X thought was funny. The therapist take to X telling him it wasn’t good to hear so much ridicule and negativist from a Dad to a son, boys are sensitive to what their fathers say to them.., (common sense). Not surprising, the counseling session didn’t stop X’s ridicule directed towards our son. I would tell X how lucky he was to have a son who enjoyed doing things with him. X didn’t care. X only had time for himself, running and going to the gym and I found out later hiking with his AP. I would ask X to take us hiking with him and he would say we couldn’t keep up with him. (he couldn’t slow down or keep it a shorter hike for his family). When X left he bribed our son with attention and gifts to move in with him saying they could be college room mates. X eventually had our son emancipated so our son could be on his own, alone in the apartment while X stayed with his AP or went to work. I can’t believe the judge allowed him to do this, our son wasn’t mature enough and was left alone without any rules which not surprisingly had an adverse affect. Grades plummeted, friendships changed, lost interest in hobbies. X never did anything with him just left our son to roam around on his own. The friends he had drifted away and he met people that were older and shady. X didn’t care. I hate him for what he’s done to our son. My son is too young to realize how it’s hurt his development. He’s doing okay but not living up to the potential he once had. I don’t understand the family court judges.. This might sound crazy but this judge is female, and I could tell she was taken with X and his charm. Her face would light up when she talked to him and they’d banter back and forth, laughing.., X can be quite charming and funny, she fell for it and X ran with it. I hope my son realizes someday just what an ass his father is.. our son still looks for his attention.. I assumed everyone wants only the best for their children, a better life than they’ve had and to look our for them.. I thought that’s the type of person I married and had a child with but it wasn’t. One of my biggest regrets is not leaving with my son when he was younger and I first noticed how disinterested X was with being a parent.

Fstl
Fstl
6 years ago

I got option 3 – loads of good books on divorcing people with BPD or NPD (or just the traits) and they describe the need to “blame” the innocent party to help deal with their own personality issues. Anyone narcissistic will blame as it can’t possibly be themselves and it feels oh so much better to push all the blame onto the other party.

My lawyers really struggled with this in my divorce and I really struggled with it because I was conditioned to it after years of subtle and not so subtle abuse in which everything was my fault. Narcissists have a view of themselves (they’re awesome and entitled to everything that’s owed to them) and you pointing out in court papers that they’re assholes and should really pay their shares will enrage their hurt little ego.

But now…. Who cares what they think. They’ve shown themselves to be who they really are and, once the divorce is over, let them get on with their own shitty lives and disordered thinking.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  Fstl

Yup…Narcissists are pros at laying the blame and guilt on other people. “Who ? Me? I didn’t do anything wrong. You’re the one with all the problems.” Their side of the street is pristine.

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
6 years ago
Reply to  Fstl

I’m perfectly okay with X hating me at this point, because really, why would I want someone that fucked up to like me!?

What I struggle with is how he hates our kids.

Every (in)action, like promising his old car to the new driver and then telling him it’s “not running today,” or blaming me for being poor as the reason he can’t help his now sober son get back on his feet – while sitting on a million dollar inheritance and buying a third home to fix up, to insipid details like making them pay for their own Happy Meal when he shows up to visit with them. He also employs the silent treatment when they call him out on his bullshit. His behavior tells them, “It’s all about me. You are not important to me. Oh, and I lie.”

While we at Chump Nation know we’re all better off without such a disordered fuckwit, it’s hard to get to meh as he continues torture our children with the ole bait and switch tactics.

For that reason alone, I hate him right back. But the difference between his hatred toward me and mine toward him is that I keep it to myself. He continues to bad mouth me to my kids with snide remarks and outright lies. Lucky for me though, my kids are telling him to fuck off when he tries now. Hence the silent treatment.

Got-a-brain
Got-a-brain
6 years ago

My ex does the same thing. He withholds the vehicle we bought for the kids to drive (that is in his name). We bought our oldest daughter a new car after he moved out, with the agreement our second child would be driving the Jeep she had previously drove. They are welcome to drive it when they are with him, but as soon as its time to come back to mom’s house, it suddenly needs to go to the shop, he needs it to haul things, ( can’t use his precious Audi A6 for that) Funny since he’s out of town, but for some reason needed to park that vehicle at the airport instead of his Audi.

It’s a power and control thing – which is a ploy of fuckwits. He thinks he is punishing me (by showing me who has the power) but really he is punishing our kids. Our oldest is going off to college and she’s said, “I’m not stupid, I know who has the money and I’m going to kiss his ass for as long as I have to to make my life better.” I don’t know if I blame her, this isn’t her fight and it’s not her job to disadvantage herself in the name of standing up for me. It’s sad really… it’s hard to teach upholding values over disadvantaging yourself. She knows not accepting his version of serial cheater justification will result in her detriment (the cutting off of daddy money). Sadly, I’m sure this is the precise mindset that will perpetuate the cycle of “do what benefits you over what is morally right.” I’ve done what I can to instill values that I perceive to be virtuous, the rest is up to her.

My middle child is the one that suffers the most because she has a strong sense of right and wrong, and she will not appease him by submitting to his power and control, and thus she doesn’t get the benefit of cars, gifts, linked bank accounts and praise for folding to his “Your mom is terrible person and that’s why I cheated” narrative.

I wish it didn’t have to be this way, and his hate for me wasn’t demonstrated by using our children as pawns in his power and control dialog.

Maybe CL needs to write a book for fuckwits entitled “how to get to MEH, when you are a fuckwit” ?

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago

Yah, ChutesandLadders, I just wonder: would the kids be better off NOT being around him?

Tundra Woma
Tundra Woma
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

The
eHave you ever tried to walk away from one of these fuckwits-as an Adult Child? You think it’s bad being married, at least you have some legal recourse: We have exactly NONE. And do you think they will just leave us in peace when we walk away? OHHELLNO. Not likely, although some have other toys to play with-but like a horror show, they eventually turn up over and over again on a Perimiter Probe.

Having one of these for a parent is a shit show of epic proportions. They denigrate, scream, terrorize, abuse, neglect, destroy and otherwise “usher” every last person out of their lives eventually. By the end of their lives they leave a trail of wreck and ruin in their wake that is stunning in it’s chronicity and severity. They foster unhealthy Trauma Bonds with their appendages-we are not seen as human beings in our own right no matter how old we become. The most vulnerable, voiceless, unprotected victims of Cluster B Personality Disordered/High Conflict Personality parents are their kids. And when we finally walk away/NC (no contact) we set up a relentless war between us and the CB: “She’s just like her Faatthheeerrrrr!” “She’s brilliant but emotionally immature!” And so forth. Welcome to the only cohort group that grows “down” instead of “up:” When you’re a child you’re treated as an adult and when you re an adult you’re treated as a child.

They have a mindset of a career criminal: The only mitigating factor on their behavior is *what they think they can get away with.* I feel qualified to make that observation for a buncha reasons as do other Adult Children and I’m not gonna get into this here. Mine endeavored for decades with cruel coercion to use me as a Tool in her insane Scorched Earth War against my Dad-who finally walked away at 63 a few months post a massive MI from which he was not expected to recover and a Near Death Experience. Effectively, she was demanding I surrender my most deeply held morals, values and ethics, that which makes us “us” so she could use me as a Tool. Think about how dehumanizing that is and feels-for a minute or more: Now think of it as a lifetime experience. She didn’t give a shit about me outside of my utility to her. I’ve seen the results of this behavior, of surrendering one’s very conscience under extreme coercion and it’s horrible: People either exist in a state of anomie at best or they become suicidal at worst. We have no right to demand anyone sacrifice their very soul, their personhood for anyone or anything else-unless your agenda is to destroy them.

Please, please know this: These people do NOT have kids for the the joy and inherent challenges of becoming parents. They love the picture of themselves as “Madonna and Child” or “Andy of Mayberry” but they hate the reality-and us as well. We desperately need one.sane.parent. Please be that parent who does not put us in a vice and squeeze us until we dissimulate. Don’t smack talk the other parent, ever. Don’t pump us for information, drag us into court, use us as therapists, guilt us, terrify us, and other wise misuse us. The other parent is doing plenty of that and the pressure is horrible. Remember this is a Marathon, not a Sprint.

A child or Adult Child does not have to be an installment of “Criminal Minds: Special Victims Unit” to be abused and neglected. Bruises fade. Broken bones mend. Burns scar over: It is the psychological/emotional abuse that leaves the longest demands. There are vestiges of having a Cluster B Personality Disordered/High Conflict Person as a parent that will remain with us until our physical deaths: That’s not speculation or dramatic license. It’s a Statement of Fact. Our decision to eventually walk away from these kinds of parents is decades in coming and indescribably anguishing; it is not made lightly or without deep pain. The cost to us is incalculable.

We need a safe place to land that is free from pressure or coercion of any kind. We’re not idiots: I knew my mommy was different from other mommies by the time I was 3. She hated being a wife, she hated being a mother, she hated being a “home maker” (what a joke, we had “Help”), she hated her life. And every day in every way she made sure that not only did we know that but we-or somehow I-was responsible for her being such a terrifying, nasty, unpredictable, abusive/neglectful “Mugger” who swung wildly between Engulfing and Ignoring. I know I am not in any way unique nor is my experience from other Adult Children of CBs/High Conflict Personality parents.

When you expropriate a childhood, adolescence, adulthood etc. from your offspring for *any* reason, you have stolen that which can never be restored. CBs engage in this behavior consistently. They are Muggers of the most odious sort. Their behavior may not be ordinarily criminal in the legal sense (although often it is) but in the realm of our minds, experiences, lives they are the shameless perpetrators of Child Abuse/Neglect whose effects impact our lives globally-will remain with us until our last breath.

We need you to believe in us. We need you to give us the gift of empathy, time and factual reality testing when *we* bring up our other parent and their behavior. We need you to always remember we are the unwitting victims/result of adult choices over which we bear the longest burden. We need you to be a parent damnit, with all the privileges and responsibilities inherent in being one. Above all, we need your love and compassion.

Because my Dad was all of these he is (although long dead) my Hero. Please be your own child’s Hero. Remember, none of this costs a cent but requires a resolute decision to consistently model the behavior that hopefully allow will allow us, when the time comes to choose a life partner with greater discrimination that is the antithesis of your choice: There is no greater Legacy we can leave our children or their children-and into successive generations we will not live to see.

The Hate ends with us.

Alexandra
Alexandra
6 years ago
Reply to  Tundra Woma

Thank you Tundra Woman, I went through this with my father and my husband went through this with his mother.

It’s soul-sucking and by my early 20s I was suicidal.

Luckily for me, I dropped my father and virtually disappeared for years.

When I went home later in life they seemed so strange to me that they held no hold over my life despite many many many attempts to do so.

If they can’t control you, then you are worthless to them.

I call it “being off the reserve.” Once you are out of their sphere of total control they try to either claw you back in, and failing that, they act as though you never existed. Or that you are the worst thing to have ever existed.

NextTimeMan-Bot
NextTimeMan-Bot
6 years ago
Reply to  Tundra Woma

Welcome to the only cohort group that grows “down” instead of “up:” When you’re a child you’re treated as an adult and when you re an adult you’re treated as a child.

That is so true!

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  Tundra Woma

Amen

champchump
champchump
6 years ago
Reply to  Tundra Woma

Thanks for this post, Tundra Woman. It will be of great help and insight for me to understand and support my daughter-in-law, who grew up with a Cluster B mother. Unfortunately for her, she does not even have one sane parent; her mother was not married to her father and has never told her who he is. When my DIL was 3, her mother married another Cluster B, who proceeded to abuse my DIL physically, sexually, and psychologically until her mother finally separated from him when DIL was in high school. The stepfather tried to maintain control over her until recent years, but he lives far away thank goodness. The mother, however, lives close by and has continued her Cluster B ways with her daughter whenever possible.

It seems obvious and simple for us who care about her to say, “Go NC with your mother!” She has not been able to do that yet. I am hoping that someday, with the help of a good therapist and the love of my son, she will find the fortitude to do what she knows she has to do. She’s only 26. I so feel for her.

My son’s father is a Cluster B, but not as malignant as his wife’s. My son was lucky enough to have one sane parent—me (although sometimes I think being married to a Cluster B for 30 years made me crazy). I’m hoping that now I’m in DIL’s life, she’ll let me be a sane parent for her as well.

Her Blondeness
Her Blondeness
6 years ago
Reply to  Tundra Woma

Tundra Woman, what a powerful post! I have a BPD mother (I suspect as she would !never! see a psych, ya know, cuz she’s smarter than they are.) My relationship with her has been the very picture of dysfunctional. You described the experience exactly. And your final line, “The Hate ends with us” is exactly what I decided when I had my son. I have my bad days, as any parent does, but he never doubts that I truly love him and I have his back. He will never know the humiliation that I have endured at the hands of someone that is supposed to be your staunchest, most unconditional supporter.

However, then there is the childhood conditioning that made it seem normal to marry his dad, Cheater #1. He has a whole litany of diagnoses that he uses as an excuse for poor behavior, poor choices and an all around shitty life. I actually had two different psychologists, plus a family friend all basically make the same observance about our marriage: “You are the glue holding him together and he finds that threatening.” The last fourteen years since our separation and divorce has proven that several times over.

But I am the sane parent and make sure that Jr. knows he always has a safe haven, an advocate and, most of all, an unconditionally loving parent.

Thanks for posting and sharing your insight.

Tundra Woman
Tundra Woman
6 years ago
Reply to  Her Blondeness

Yes, and one of the most common Legacies is the reality that no one ever modeled Boundaries for us nor allowed us our most Fundamental Right, the Right to Self Defense so we become chum in the water to every Predator out there. When an adult requires another adult to function as “glue” to hold them together the pieces never fit initially, IMO and “Humpty Dumpty” is the childhood fairytale of one of life’s ugliest realities. We mistake Pity for Love, Passion for Compassion, Mutuality with “Mine, All Mine,” a Relationship (any significant relationship) as a Herculean task of Feeding the Empty Hole where a heart should be-but isn’t. We are born hard wired to bond with our Primary Caretakers and will do everything we possibly can to attempt to secure their love and approval. By the time we’re 3 we recognize without the care and protection of our parents, we would perish. That’s a pretty hefty club to hold over a child’s head. Still, we try desperately to please them regardless of the “cost” to us. Of course all parents and all adults have bad days and very trying periods in their lives. But we do our damnedest to ensure these adult problems remain with the “groan ups,” not the Littles. This is not a matter of a few “mistakes” were made or not being “perfect” at all: It takes concerted effort over decades to destroy that child’s hope their parent(s) will ever love them. And if your parent(s) can’t love you, who possibly can?

The fancy shrink speak for our unconscious attempts to remediate these circumstances is “Recapitulation of the Primary Trauma.” It’s our best effort to master what’s happened to us and to effect a different, more desirable outcome. We pick partners unaware for the most part we are choosing the same circumstances of our original Trauma all over again. It feels “familiar” because hypercriticism, disproportionate responses, predictable unpredictability etc. is “home.” As a result, we unwittingly collude with our abusers in perpetuating our own histories.

To be sure it’s not inevitable that we choose poorly, but it’s common. It seems to me ultimately it’s not about what we did “wrong” but what we do to address that challenge. That model, that life and people will throw us curve balls-at times through no fault of our own-in fact realistically prepares our kids to recognize mistakes are made-and that doesn’t make us or them unloveable or fatally flawed as a result.

That’s a very valuable Life Lesson we’re all going to need to use at some-if not many-points. I’m sure you’ve read Christine Lawson’s “Understanding the Borderline Mother” and every time I read the phrase “timid forest creature” I think of Lawson’s Waif typology, yk?! Yep, CBs are highly unlikely to ever get into meaningful therapy but all the people/roadkill victims around them IMO are single handedly keeping the self-help industry, psychiatrists and psychologists in royalties, co-pays and vacation residences ;–)

FindingBliss
FindingBliss
6 years ago
Reply to  Tundra Woma

So well said, TundraWoman. I went NC on my narc Cluster B mother about the same time I divorced my cheating narc cluster B ex. Other cluster B’s in the FOO are shocked and outraged that I no longer will put up with their abuse and demands. So, what did they do?–why, reach out and embrace and love on the poor, misunderstood ex. You know, the one they hated and had nothing good to say about when I was married to him for almost 30 years. But now they are allies in their united front and narrative that it’s all my fault. They cannot stand the loss of control and hate that they can’t use you any longer. Really, they don’t know I’m thrilled they are there to feed on each other and can narrate themselves into fantasy all they want. I’m so glad to be free of all their disorder. My cluster B mother is deceased now, and with NC with all the other narcs, my life is improving all the time. But the stolen childhood? I hear you. But I’m grateful for a grandkid–my excuse to do all the fun stuff I was never allowed to do because I was expected to be a little adult and meet all her needs. Here’s to enjoying life whatever our age.

Tundra Woman
Tundra Woman
6 years ago
Reply to  FindingBliss

Finding Bliss, That is so classic: “The enemy of my enemy” strategy. I seriously side eye these alliances because they are so unpredictably predictable-you’re in plenty of company, FWIW. Interestingly, people who have been labeled or label themselves “anxious,” “depressed” etc. and medicated for such (or self-medicated, often with little discernible difference) through a variety of circumstances find themselves in your position-and guess what? All those psychiatric dxs. they accepted because it *must* be them dissipate. Sometimes the real “problem” is they’re surrounded by assholes-who knew, huh? ;–)

It’s really a challenge for someone who is so beat up and beat down to walk away from the cabal, but as you’re experiencing the freedom is indescribable: Freedom is never as precious to those who have had the experience as it is to those who have spent their lives in a prison of invisible bars.

No, we can’t get our lost/missing decades back, but we can do our damnedest to ensure the next generations from our’s forward are able to experience all that we missed and miss all we experienced. If we can accomplish this, we will have transcended our Legacy. IMO, there can not be more of a profound gift than this to those we will never live long enough to know: Our “reach” will exceed beyond our own stolen hope, dreams and lives.

FreeNow
FreeNow
6 years ago
Reply to  FindingBliss

You are mighty FB! You deserve to play, sip and savor from the beautiful cup of life. Cheers to being cheater and narc free!

Justine
Justine
6 years ago

Basically, I figured my ex hated me because I stopped being a chump. I stopped obeying him. I stopped tiptoeing round his every need. And horror of horrors, I told people what he’d done and I fought him in court.
He loathed me when I found strength to fight. He thought he’d absolutely destroy me.
It was hard but I finally figured out that there would never be an answer to the “why”questions I asked that would ever make me go “Ohhh, now I get it!” His thinking would NEVER make sense to me. At that point I could just trust that he sucked and move on.
Good luck Jen.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  Justine

Justine I think you’re prob on the right track. You stopped being a doormat and a chump and he couldn’t stand it. He couldn’t have his cake and eat it too. Good for you though

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

And when we refuse to stay friends with them, it destroys their impression management script. That’s when mine started hating me–not after I divorced him or took half his retirement, but after I refused to speak to him or lie about his serial cheating. Then the waves of his hatred washed over multiple areas of my life.

NoMoreNarcs
NoMoreNarcs
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Something very similar happened with my most recent (and last!) narc. So waves of hatred washed out, and many circles of ‘friends’ still expect me to show up for social things that are also open to the narc.

This provided an excellent and immediate opportunity to prove my mighty and simply say ‘no’ to events and people who are comfortable having casual/social relationships with my former abuser.

So many are just simply baffled by my decision though I’m sure none of them would ever choose to socialize with their exes.

Learning to have better relations is often hard and painful – but so worth it

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreNarcs

I’ve dropped all those “friends,” they are no longer my friends, they’re X’s friends.
Not playing the on the fence BS. I have zero tolerance to Switzerland friends.
When X left I didn’t want to impose on anyone and didn’t want to make anyone feel uncomfortable making them chose between us. As time progressed I noticed a distinct pattern of them calling or coming over to report to me what X was doing. I noticed a
change in their alliance leaning towards X then found out they were spending more and more time with Chump and keeping secrets from me and reporting to X. Later when it came to our court hearings those that were supposed to be witnesses for me bailed.
Then I find out they’re supporting X’s decision to emancipate our son. When confronted they decide any such thing.. All blatant lies. I started thinking, either you’re for the one who is honest and has nothing to hide or you’re going to side with the cheater. No excuses, well, he was just looking for something different, he wanted someone he had more in common with. 20 years of marriage and all the years I supported his career while sacrificing my career, we had a child together among many other trials that don’t need to mentioned here today. These people have a lot of nerve to make excuses for X and then say things like, well Brit, you’re bitter, or talking like that, I can see why he’s leaving you. A huge FUCK YOU, to all of them. I had a few run up to me to say hello and chat. I looked right passed them, as if they didn’t exist. I don’t think they’d like what I’d have to say to them. Sad, in some ways, these are people I would talk to almost on a daily basis, shared memories of our kids growing up together, lots of laughs, not anymore.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

with X not Chump, sorry, typo

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreNarcs

I’ve been in a quandary wondering how to handle my youngest child asking for me to get together with his dad for family events now that grandchildren are in the mix. I just can’t picture me happily hanging out at my ex’s resort like everything is fine and we’re good friends. It’s hard for my son to understand why we don’t communicate anymore since we were married for 30+ years.

Other Kat
Other Kat
6 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

Lyn, I struggled with the same issue with my adult children, who couldn’t understand why I couldn’t have “family” holiday dinners with them and X and even accused me of being immature about it. I received some sage advice from CN in the forums and the statement that seems to have gotten through to them without airing details they’ve made clear they have no interest in hearing is, “The issues that led to our divorce were very painful for me and I am not able to be friends with Dad.” Short, sweet, and to the point–I was prepared to answer their questions if they asked more about what those issues were, but it was clear they didn’t want to know (as far as I am aware, they know nothing about his cheating, which he has always denied despite the mountains of evidence I compiled). It felt good to lay down that boundary in a very clear way, without explanation, justification, or apology–it was painful, therefore we can’t be friends, therefore no dinners together, end of story.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  Other Kat

Thanks Other Kat, I’m glad to know how you handled it. My kids do know about his EA probably PA with his coworker, but now seem to have moved passed that. My youngest, especially, seems to want us all to be together like we were when he was young. He was the most blindsided by our breakup and didn’t have any inkling about my ex and his affairs. My oldest son told me he’d suspected as early as a preteen that his dad was having an affair, so he seems to understand that it’s very painful for me. I’m determined not to do anything that causes myself more pain where my ex is concerned. Too many years of that already.

NoMoreNarcs
NoMoreNarcs
6 years ago
Reply to  Other Kat

Good for you, Other Kat!

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Good riddance 🙂

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

Exactly!!

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  Justine

I made the huge mistake of trying (for YEARS) to untangle the “why” of the night he declared his intent to divorce. I know, massive chump mistake. He claimed certain things to be true, but if you accepted his truths then his behaviors made no sense. And yet there I was with my endless “why?”.

Nearly 10 years after that puzzling night, 3 years after he died, I learned that he was a serial adulterer. THAT was the “why”. So CL wisdom of “trust that he sucks” really WAS the answer. Throughout all 10 yrs of time, I simple wasn’t willing to see that he really was THAT bad. And yet he was.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

unicorn, I also felt the night my husband gave the ILBINILY speech his reasons for wanting to leave our marriage made no sense. It was making me crazy trying to figure out what was going on. Although horrible, it was also a relief to read in black and white what was going on in his life to make him act that way. I believe the withholding of truth and blaming us for the demise of our marriages is the hardest part to get past. I still sometimes wish I knew the extent of his affairs over the years. It might explain a lot. But I don’t think I’ll ever really know.

mila
mila
6 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

It took me exactly four excruciatingly painful weeks to figure out the why. That and 1200 bucks for a PI. The why was his poet/yoga teacher/scientist/activist (acc. to her Facebook) coworker. Simple. Nothing to do with me as a person, nothing at all.

Anita
Anita
6 years ago
Reply to  mila

She is really accomplished, mila. Or most likely a pathological liar…

Mila
Mila
6 years ago
Reply to  Anita

Forgot to mention: Has a final judgment against her for not paying the rent on her yoga studio, has a balloon mortgage due in 2 years, didn’t pay her property taxes.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

He had been jerk for a long time when I got the speech…I had tried every possible idea to connect with him and I was praying to God that H would find within him the capacity to be kind and in interest in a relationship…he did, just not with me…

but almost all of his actions the night of the speech could be explained by CL’s theory of cake….but I had nary the first inkling that he was a cheater.

If he had said “I have decide that I no longer want to be married, you tried but Im done and leaving” I would have been said and pretzelled, but instead, he avoided ALL accountability and said “I want a divorce, I dont love you and I realize now that I never did, you have been a terrible wife, left me tell you where you failed _____(2-3 hour laundry list that eventually contradicted itself). He assured me there was noone else, this was between us.

I pickme danced like a lunatic. He didnt leave so I thought he was reconsidering…we seemed to get closer then when he could sense it, he distanced himself like crazy, but he didnt move out.

None of it made sense…if I were SO horrible he had to divorce me then why was he still here and if I were good enough to stay with, why rip me in half with his horrible speech?

Cake…I think he was planning to leave for Susan and he felt guilt having this full blown affair so the speech…he had unfinished business as he retired so he stayed and ate cake. I dont know where his “leaving for Susan fantasy mixed in, but it was all SO MEAN.

So much later I learned he was a serial cheater…that is why it was so easy to hide his affair, his behavior hadnt really changed, it just went into this particular affair.

He inflicted wave after wave of massive pain on me simply out of self protection and refusal to accept consequences…he was willing to inflict ANY amount of pain in me to protect himself. any. and he lied and hid his betrayals. Years later, looking back, I care little of the monkeysex, but the pain he planned and chose to inflict on me that april day…that left me so sick all I could do was vomit…I will never forget that pain…and he did it to save his own ass and affair partner. I thought so much better of him, I thought him brave…in the end, he was the worst coward I knew.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

no, I misspoke slightly…I have forgotten the magnitude of some of the pain from that time…it did finally dissipate into that part of my brain that forgets intense pain because your brain was never formed to be able to recall that sort of stimulus.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

“he was willing to inflict ANY amount of pain in me to protect himself.”

Yes, this is the hardest part for me to forgive. He then told the kids that Schmoopie Coworker had nothing to do with it because our divorce had been coming a long time. I had wave after wave of panic attack for weeks every time I remembered him saying that. I kept wondering what in the hell was wrong with me that I didn’t know? I always thought my husband had integrity, it was real shock after 36 years to realize he didn’t. He was just great at faking it.

Patsy
Patsy
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Me too, Hun, but you know that already! xxx

We just did not want to see.

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago

STBX heavily vacillates between love-bombing and pure hatred. Near the marital implosion, it was pure hatred (calling him out on his shit — didn’t realize how dangerous this could be with a narc). Once the implosion turned to an explosion and we very clearly — no blurry lines — separated, he started love-bombing.

But as the legal aspects become more of a reality to STBX, I strongly suspect the pure hatred will again take over.

It feels almost schizophrenic to be on the receiving end of such irrational treatment, so I understand the letter-writer’s concerns. Besides, it is so outrageously unjust to be vilified for being a decent human, a devoted and loving spouse and partner.

One massive shit-sandwich I’ve had to acknowledge and then swallow is that there is no justice with a narc because justice relies so much on objective assessment and rational conclusions. Objectivity and rationality are like kryptonite to a narc, and (therefore), so is justice.

I’m recently been trying to re-wire my brain so that I can see that the hatred of a narc is (in its own screwed up way) a compliment. I know there is logic in this thought, but after more than two decades of this shit, my brain needs a tune-up.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  JesssMom

JessMom,
I feel this way too. My STBX is all over the place, sometimes within the same hour. Sometimes within the same text.

After he left but before I knew about OW, he stood in our kitchen and jumped from my being such a good mom, to we have nothing of value for him to take because I am a tightwad, to I was too good for him and he didn’t deserve me, to I could just give him half of my retirement to keep the house, to can I have a hug?

That night is when I realized that he was not mentally right and he used words for manipulation. I wasn’t caving when he flattered and I wasn’t apologizing when he tried to make me feel guilty and I wasn’t reacting with fear when he tried to threaten me. He kept switching it up trying to get one to work. Hmmmm…that doesn’t sound mental but calculating, doesn’t it?

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

I remember X going from I love you and I don’t want a divorce with fake tears in his eyes, in the next breath saying he’s had enough, and can’t stay married to me with a huge grin on his face.
They’re not right.. no one would believe it unless you experienced it.

All these off the wall things they complain about are excuses for them to cheat. I know it isn’t a revaluation now. At the time as Chumps we’re trying to make sense of it and promising to only break the pasta in two places next time. Or if only I had bought the right kind of cheese he’d be happy and we would still be married.
Eventually AP’s and GF’s will find out they’re not breaking the pasta noodles the correct way, or didn’t hang his shirts up facing the right direction, or are incompetent and don’t know how to boil water or breast feed their child correctly. It’s only a matter of time.

NotYourPlanB
NotYourPlanB
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

“No one would believe it unless you experienced it” indeed. It is so crazy. During our brief “wreckonciliation” my STBX went, in the space of 10 minutes, from sobbing about how much he missed his OW, to reciting all the ways I’d failed him that OW succeeded at, to then asking me for sex. All I could do was stare at him…this creature in front of me was so beyond anything I’d dealt with before, I had no clue how to react.

He walked out the door a few minutes later, furious that I’d turned down his gross proposition. And I stared at the closed door for the longest time, wheels slowly churning in my brain trying to process what the heck I had just observed.

I agree, brit, right now everything OWs do is perfect, but not for long….

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

“Calculating” is spot-on. It took me a long while to realize that this is exactly what my STBX was doing as well.

“Which approach will get what I want from this situation?” seems to be the narc default setting. At least with my STBX, it’s such a well-practiced tactic that it’s second-nature to him — and a part of the reason why it was so hard to see from moment to moment.

You really have to take a step back to even begin to discern the pattern. It’s stunning when you finally see it.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  JesssMom

It is sickening when you finally see it.

SpecialistInHope
SpecialistInHope
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

It really is stunning when you finally realise the very obvious pattern. It’s only been in the last 6 months, since I’ve gone NC (as far as is possible when coparenting young kids), that his cycling between rage, charm and sad sausage is so clear and predictable.

Josephine
Josephine
6 years ago

My narcSTBXH fits this three-step pattern, too. Charm, sad sausage, rage. Dovetails nicely with his overall pattern of: Idealize, devalue, discard. The narc pathology is predictable after we’ve been in the proverbial trenches with one after a time. Thanks to CL & CN, I see how NOT alone I am as a Chump/Caretaker in recovery from narc abuse. Onward!

conniered
conniered
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

the 3 channels in quick succession….charm, anger, sad sausage!!

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  JesssMom

*I’ve recently (darned typos … I need sleep … lol!)

Magneto
Magneto
6 years ago

If you research covert narcissist, vulnerable narcissist or shy narcissist you will find probably spot on the behaviors that you are talking about and the pathology of the people behind it.

My moniker MAGNETO comes from being labeled the villain for years before final discard.
Every victim needs a villain, and hey, IF I’m going to be a villain, I’m going to be a cool one.

Realizing that everyone has narcissistic traits, but if your cheater falls on the narc spectrum on the “holy s#it !” side, realize that it is not you. You can’t cure it, you can’t control it and you didn’t cause it. That is the first step in the long hike away from this mess.
Oh, and don’t kid yourself, CN’s take these hidden, passive aggressive traits with them. The sparkly new life is a lopsided love bomb cake with tons of pink frosting. Frosting sitting in the hot, hot sun.

Everything they touch will turn to mush, sooner or later. Count on it, but don’t wait for it.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

I made the mistake of uncorking the coverts rage. It happened when I filed. When he was served the hatred was unleashed. He’s a sadist and wanted me to suffer.

As Magneto said they take that passive aggressiveness with them. What coverts are very skilled with is making you feel as if you DO have the power in the relationship. He was a mousy head bobber who laughed and agreed then sabotaged and complained. NOTHING was good enough.

They know exactly what they are doing. This weekend I attended a bridal shower and his mother and sister sat at my table and embraced me. I hadn’t seen them in years. They said nothing about the skank. They didn’t have to. I was told none of them like her. My sister in law sent me a FB request and asked me to go riding.

TW your post hit the mark. I was surrounded by disordered and know the damage as well as the strength it takes to be the sane parent.

To those whose children wonder why ‘friendship’ (pretending) is not an option? It’s about self preservation. Model this skill. They will thank you.

Dee
Dee
6 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

Yes!!! 100 % accurate Magneto! In my case my covert narc has now moved in with his Schmoopie, who is another covert narc. (They are soulmates, and so much alike, you know.) So…. what happens when two covert narcs get together? Stay tuned….

And as for the question of the day – why does my cheater hate me? He hates you because you now know who he really is, and he views you as a constant threat because you may reveal his true character to others (and clearly you already have given your legal action). He hates you because you dared to react appropriately to what he did. It really is that simple.

Sova
Sova
6 years ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee, that is my life right now too…my STBX is moved in with the homewrecker,not even 3 months in to legal separation (unfortunately have to be separated for a year before filing ) she’s his soul mate, the ONE he’s meant to be with (I have emails from when we were dating saying all those things to me)His love is narcissistic piece of shit as well,all of her instagram posts are about her fit body,the # are hilarious, as if teen girl posted them..She is about to be divorced from husband #2 (who is 7 years younger than her,when they had 1st child he was 21 she was 28 .my ex is 4 years younger than her) and both husbands were bankrupted by her.My ex will be bankrupt too,as he’s TERRIBLE with money…told him when his little bubble will break, and unicorn pussy will lose her magic, I’ll be sitting back with my popcorn, enjoying that shit show..

MissDecaf
MissDecaf
6 years ago
Reply to  Dee

Mine undulates between telling everyone I’m crazy and conspiring with Tarantula (his schmoopie) to post the meanest shit about me online, to calling me in the middle of the work day and leaving a sad voicemail about how sorry he is that he hurt me this way.

….alrighty there. Seems legit.

In conversations my father now refers to him as The Toxic. I think it’s appropriate.

SpecialistInHope
SpecialistInHope
6 years ago
Reply to  Dee

Absolutely! The rage and hate that emerged from Sasquatch once I was no longer under his narcy spell was breathtaking. He lives in fear that I will reveal his true nature to his new Lolita or his place of employment and he HATES me for it.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  Dee

I think mine hates me because I told others about what he did instead of supporting his narrative of everything being my fault for not letting him be he who wanted to be. LOL

Magneto
Magneto
6 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

* In this reply CN ^^^ means covert narcs, not chump nation. ‘scuze.

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  Magneto

+1000

(Really well stated, Magneto!)

Kathleen
Kathleen
6 years ago

Unbelievable- but so true. My old, viagra addicted narc kept telling me how he wanted to be “single” ..

Well after being served divorce papers he treated me horribly, slandering me, telling whore (my son too)
that I stole from him, cheated, etc etc. which were all lies.

Why wasn’t he happy I gave him supposedly what he wanted? After 34 years of what I thought was pretty good marriage..where did the anger come from?

Hope Karma rears its head on both of them for the pain
I still feel.!!

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  Kathleen

He wasn’t being accurate when he said “single,” he wanted cake, and pretend like he was single.

Being single is really only fun and wonderful when it’s done in the proper time of life: when you’re young, and unmarried.

Kathleen
Kathleen
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

QueenMother… You are so right on!

Sometimes we have to be careful what we wish for.
Blowing up a marriage, family for strange, new whore is what he wanted.

Hope they burn in hell ?

arlo
arlo
6 years ago

That Bill Cosby line, comedy gold right there! Too funny, CL!

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  arlo

Yep!

Comedy gold — she could have sold that to the late night show hosts.

Phyllis DuPree
Phyllis DuPree
6 years ago

Here’s the exact reason why your ex hates you! Enjoy like 140,000,00 others who viewed this video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RsOLQSPaPs

HERE’S TO THE MIGHTY ONE!!!

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Phyllis DuPree

Good video, some of his others sound interesting as well.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  Phyllis DuPree

Required Reading for Chumps.
Thank You Phyllis, this is Gold.

Phyllis DuPree
Phyllis DuPree
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

You’re WELCOME!

I sincerely hope the link helps you!

Please share the video and others by this individual to others to help them!

Take care!

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  Phyllis DuPree

Watch this Chumps!!! It explains in detail, tells what you what you knew deep down, how you figured out Cheater and were open with him, and how that made him mad as hell!!! You were right about his crap-behavior and he doesn’t like you knowing, cuz he will not change. If anything’s gonna change, it’s going to be the married status, not his stinking behavior.

Leigh
Leigh
6 years ago
Reply to  Phyllis DuPree

Ooh! This is a good one! Thanks!

VulcanChump
VulcanChump
6 years ago

It’s really mind-boggling what will inspire narcissistic rage.

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper
6 years ago

It’s “THAT LOOK” that they give you with their EYES!

Says a million words,
Hate and distain being at the top of the list!

Josephine
Josephine
6 years ago
Reply to  Peacekeeper

I have seen those bird of prey eyes. Scary. I have a picture of Those Eyes, too, and as others here are saying it is validating to look at it as a reminder of the narcissistic rage.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Peacekeeper

“That Look”
I have a photo, I wish I could post.., it’s a classic.
perfect, the poster boy of the “look.”

Lady b
Lady b
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

His lip curls with contempt when he talks to me, it’s quite horrible. I like to look at it as it makes him look really ugly and unattractive along with those dead soulless eyes, like piss holes in the snow.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Lady b

OMG! This: “[he] looks really ugly and unattractive along with those dead soulless eyes, like piss holes in the snow.”

Bingo!

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

I do too…I took a photo of him when he was talking to OW (the only time we were all in the same place)…he was all Schmoopie looking at her then he turned his head towards me (I was photographing his retirement reception) and I snapped the photo. Pure hatred…utter distain and contempt. Patsy has seen the photo. As much as I hate the photo, Im glad I have it…it validates my experience.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

I have one of those photos. The contempt…

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

unicorn, that reminded me of the look my husband gave me at our son’s wedding, then he turned and saw married schmoopie coworker and his face lit up like a Christmas tree. Ugh.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  Lyn

Lyn,
Wow! was that when you first thought there might be something going on between them?
Unicorns words accurately describe the picture I have of X giving me the evil look.
I have it in my pictures on my computer entitled “the look of love.”
Maybe someday we can compose a CN secret year book.

Lyn
Lyn
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Brit, No, I had my suspicions about him and his coworker for many years. However, she was married and worked for him for a long time. She started out as a grad student. She had two small children and her husband was even at my son’s wedding. It was just so hurtful for my husband to spend most of the night at OUR son’s wedding dancing with his coworker. My ex always claimed they were just good friends. Always so painful that he was better friends with her than with me once she started working for him.

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

My strongest memory of “THE LOOK” is when he passed by me in our new home lovely kitchen and
said to me, ( with “THE LOOK” in his eyes), before Dday), “You couldn’t be pregnant at a possibly worse time!”

OMG, I am in need of Sad Selby’s emolgi talent now for saying ” Sperm says hello egg, and how did
I accomplish that by myself?”

(Shout out to CN, I admire and look forward to your everyday sense of humour often expressed in
your posts.
All you have been through and still the smiles you share.
I have to say I LOVE you CN. You make my day) ?

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
6 years ago
Reply to  Peacekeeper

???➡️??‍♀️?‍♂️??

Hopefully that’s what you were looking for. And the end is hopefully the response he got from you for the predicament YOU put him in by stealing his sperm fresh from the source and knocking yourself up!
???

Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper
6 years ago
Reply to  Sad Shelby

PERFECT!

Thank you Sad Shelby!

YOU are the ” Emolgi Queen ” of CN!

?

ChumpLadyFan
ChumpLadyFan
6 years ago

Why on EARTH does she give a rat’s ass if he hates her or not? He’s a non-entity.

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpLadyFan

Because it takes us quite a while to get used to the idea that there are pod people out there, who are NOT like we are. We tend to take people seriously, and if someone we know well and care about is angry or upset with us, we should pay attention, try to figure it out, try to fix it.

It takes time, reading/videos about narcissism and sociopathy, to really believe that these pods are what they are, and that we cannot, should not, do not need to, give any attention to their opinion of us.

Daily doses of CL and CN help that process along so much!

brit
brit
6 years ago

Sacrificed my career for “ours” and followed him across the country so he wouldn’t need to commute to be with his family. Stuck with him through unemployment, living in dumps in the middle of nowhere.
I stayed home in the middle of no where, stranded in snow storms, electrical outages, during said snowstorms with a toddler, did I mention in the middle of no where not knowing anyone? no insurance, no money, no family, or friends. Meanwhile I supported him, smiled and gave encouraging. I was there for him so he wouldn’t be alone.
This is while he flew all over the world to further “our’ career. We couldn’t afford to go anywhere, buy clothes, furniture, a washing machine when it went out. Put up with his family when they came to visit, cooking all the meals they liked while they looked over my shoulder as I cooked, uh, how much oil did you use?? is that canola oil? After dinner, I cleaned up after them while taking care of a toddler as they sat on their behinds ignoring their grandson. “They raised their kids,” they didn’t come here to babysit.., Listening to and empathizing to the health problems they might have, (nothing wrong with them).
X would tell that these were are lean years and it would all pay off someday.. those lean years are looking pretty good compared to how I’m living today, not as young, a lot less light at the end of this tunnel, and without insurance. and he despises me.

ANC
ANC
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Hugs to you, Brit. Had a very parallel experience to yours. All in the name of ‘partnership’ . Like the meme: Can you find the ‘i’ in the middle of the word ‘TEAM’? Oh yea…. it’s in the middle of the ‘A’ hole!

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

sorry for the typos^^^ got carried away.

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
6 years ago

Well, Jen, you didn’t tell him he was right to cheat on you and then conveniently die leaving him with all your assets. Hope that clears it up!

Despite the sarcasm (aimed at him, not you), I do sympathize. My EX remains furious and vindictive 6 years out. And his list of reasons he was wronged by the demise of our marriage grows longer and more detailed and more fictional as time passes. I’ve just gotten better at keeping wider and wider distances between us. I hope you can manage the same (though it is terribly hard as long as your children are young).

Luziana
Luziana
6 years ago

Whoo for the Jill Scott love! In 2010 when I was unexpectedly promoted from entry level to Executive without lobbying, the Silly Bitch stench from people I’d considered friendly was thick. My first Director of Operations directive was to make this song the ringtone on my company issued celphone.

See Also: “I Keep/Still Here”

I had a long relationship, short and bittersweet marriage, a clean break with no contact and no children, and still got the same result. It’s pretty clear from a recent unwanted interaction that Cold Slab of Meat and The Sluterus still are casting me in the role of Hypotenuse, but I’m just not playing. It’s been three years. I still need support for the mindfuck. I still need to hash over the FOO tendencies that allowed me to choose poorly. But otherwise these people are a train car of errant chickens who derailed on my lawn. Someone who pledged his life to me is now a Stranger to me. The person he was never existed, and the person he really is I would never want to know.

It’s pretty clear to everyone, including the children who actually lived in the home with us, that I was a fucking outstanding wife. I worked 40+ hours a week, paid 85% of the bills, cooked and baked amazing meals from scratch, filled every gap in parenting for thisfucker and thisfucker’s ex wife to my stepdaughter without complaint. Ran around couponing and fixing things and doing most of the lawn care, Ugh. The fact that mid discard I was running SD to the orthodontist and providing her insurance bc neither narc parent could be bothered to take off work galls me to this day. Meanwhile thisfucker bought himself a new car and was contributing about 350.00 a month to the household.
I’m not perfect. Even after D-Day, this fucker couldn’t simply say he lost interest. His fault finding was on the level that people sit down and discuss and resolve in half an hour. But he never did. Lunch Time Howorker Turtle Dick is clearly the solution when you don’t like the red microwave your wife bought.

Even through parts the quickie divorce I was so heartbroken and yielding that I’m ashamed of myself now. The same dry logic that makes me design workflows well eventually took over and saw he was full of shit, but he got away with a lot. I wasn’t contentious, punitive or hellbent on damaging the Workplace Schmoopies. I saw love was no longer being served at the table. I got up and walked away in peace.

Why would such a Timid Forest Creature and his Flying Monkeys hate you? Because you know. You know who they really are. You and his inconvenient stale offspring disrupt the narrative of his Beautiful Metamorphosis. Cold Slab O’Meat and the Sluterus cannot STAND that anyone knows the math is fuzzy on the conception of their Adultery Baby. It’s nothing personal. You’re the itchy witness they can’t shake, You’re the Comey memo in their angry Tweet.

My meh is such that I can handle even being verbally accosted by the Sluterus at this point and laugh. I checked some receipts and know their Happily Ever After is a Constant Misery. I spoke with the Other Deleted Hypotenuse. I have receipts, which helped immensely to see the smear tactics used on me aren’t personal.

Trust me, Jen, The Thing Does What The Thing IS, even when you are miles away. The Thing Does Its’ Fucked Up Thing to Others. You are not responsible. Keep protecting your kids in court, and stop trying to be a friend to a Stranger you wouldn’t want to know. Ask yourself- If you didn’t have children with thisfucker would he even know where you lived?

SouthernBelleHell
SouthernBelleHell
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

Luziana- ironic – as I live in Louisiana! Your words sum it up perfectly!

“these people are a train car of errant chickens who derailed on my lawn.

Someone who pledged his life to me is now a Stranger to me. The person he was never existed, and the person he really is I would never want to know.”

DD was earlier this year. Tired keeping it together long enough to obtain evidence, get an appointment with lawyer – packed his shit, filed for divorce and total NC – as advised accordingly from this site.

There are no words to explain the pain wrongfully inflicted upon a family, the fear, the confusion, shock, disbelief, etc.

After seeing the true BS full blown dinner served in family court(will follow up with more details) the no protection from the NAR who found his married coworker more appealing than his stable family, I’ve decided “no shit” sandwiches. I’m not going to be the person that tells the children they have to compromise and split the baby on right and wrong because some study says it’s better to have both parents in your life?! I’m not lying to them or buying rose colored glasses so they do not see who their real father is. I’m letting them see it first hand and raising them to become NOT what their father is. I do believe that would fall under the category of “best interests”.

Stand strong – serve the shit sandwiches, not eat a shit sandwich! Sorry, I’ve lost my sweet southern charm and ability to polish it this time.

FMT
FMT
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

” The person he was never existed, and the person he really is I would never want to know.”

Luz, this is the post-chump epiphany we all need to have. I’ve never seen it expressed so perfectly.

Thank you.

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

Luziana, brilliantly said and disturbingly familiar…
You’re a great writer.

violet
violet
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

This is it exactly. He hates you because you know the truth. It really does come down to this one statement.

CalmityJane
CalmityJane
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

“…train car of errant chickens who derailed on my lawn.” That is fucking hilarious, Luz…HAW HAW HAW HAW HAAWW!!!

Jojobee
Jojobee
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

“The Thing does what the Thing is,” brilliant!

ICanSeeTheMehComing!
ICanSeeTheMehComing!
6 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

So many nuggets Luiza… thank you:

– Someone who pledged his life to me is now a Stranger to me. The person he was never existed, and the person he really is I would never want to know.

– The Thing Does What The Thing IS, even when you are miles away. The Thing Does Its’ Fucked Up Thing to Others.

– If you didn’t have children with this fucker would he even know where you lived?

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago

Cognitive dissonance. Like everyone else, cheaters like to think of themselves as good people. But they have just engaged in weeks/months/years of deception and shitty behavior toward the poor chump. They have two choices: (a) acknowledge that they are horrible people with the compassion of pit vipers & morals of an alley cat, OR (b) think the chump is so despicable that he/she deserved to be cheated on.

Guess which one they choose?

QueenMother
QueenMother
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Tempest, let’s just say Cheater could acknowledge their shit behavior. Then what?

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

We are programmed to maintain our self-esteem and positive regard. It is possible (though not probable) that a cheater could acknowledge they behaved in a crappy way, but something or someone must be blamed for it–Schmoopie was SO persuasive, I started out trying to HELP Schmoopie with his/her marital problems, I ate too many Twinkies the day I started the affair, I was distressed that the chump had major surgery and thus couldn’t worship me appropriately during recovery….

Even if there is a momentary understanding of “I brought the divorce on myself,” (which mine did say in a single minute of lucidity), it cannot be sustained; blameshifting must commence. It’s also possible that the moment of lucidity where they acknowledge their duplicity is just impression management–it looks better if they admit fault (mine was a MASTER of this), but they either don’t really mean it, or they shift to “you were a crappy spouse and I had no choice but to cheat.”

I’d love to hear from people whose cheaters unequivocally acknowledged their fault in betrayal and divorce. Of all the hundreds of cases I know from CN, only ONE actually did so of which I am aware. One.

Finishline
Finishline
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

The only person fuckface would acknowledge his deplorable behavior as being a “cause” for the divorce was my sister. She had been one of many who thought he was such a great guy in college. She is awesome and can always get him to look to the floor and mutter he was a coward in the marriage and agrees his actions were just plain wrong. Not admitting any of this to me, of course. He only admitted to an emotional affair to my face, never in text or email. What a smart little deranged being…. now that the kids,who are 18 and 14, know of his affairs via myself and others, the gloves are off and he downright hates me. I am confidant in my stating to him like a broken record that I walk in my truth, I live the truth and he can’t handle the truth!! Asshat coward is a new nickname for the lil’ guy.

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

>>”Even if there is a momentary understanding of “I brought the divorce on myself,” (which mine did say in a single minute of lucidity), it cannot be sustained; blameshifting must commence.”

This is my experience. My STBX has admitted several times that he has crappy character, he needs to be a better person, none of this is my fault, etc. However, each instance was followed shortly by one or more of the following:
– subtle equivocations (“but we’re both broken”);
-subtly stating that he was simply responding to perceived offenses … so, even though the offenses weren’t real, he really perceived them — thus, justification;
– FOO issues (his parents screwed him up, thus none of his behavior is his fault)

This crap had me fooled for a long time. Now I see the key was watching for his concern for the hurt he caused. Complete disconnect. To this day, he has difficulty even pretending to understand the damage he’s caused to me and (particularly) to our kids. Even when it’s explained to him in very basic language, he just doesn’t get it — and he doesn’t get it because he genuinely doesn’t give a rat’s ass.

Sad Shelby
Sad Shelby
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

Cognitive dissonance for the win! I’m very stubborn and when I want something I will do what it takes to get what I want. And I wanted idiot cheater to admit It. Wasn’t. My. Fault. So I badgered and badgered and badgered him and eventually he admitted it wasn’t me. But I can tell you it’s not as satisfying as I thought it would be. And idiot cheater is sick and fat and miserable. And if idiot cheater was just regular guy not cheater I’d still want to be with him. Because even after all this I still love him. And it sucks. When they acknowledge they are terrible people it just makes them acknowledge they are terrible people and then they react the way people that are terrible react. By hating themselves (which we know a lot of them already did) and/or blame shifting (that shit doesn’t happen around here anymore. If I’m blamed for something I either own it 100% if it was mine to own or throw that shit back like an old boot on a fishing trip). It is a little bit nice for the cheater to own it but not nearly as good as you think it will be. I’m still Fucked. Up. I still cry if not daily then every other day. And I still have times I feel like it’s all my fault even when I know it wasn’t.

danni smith
danni smith
6 years ago
Reply to  Sad Shelby

how long now for you? That cry everyday thing let go of me after three plus years. Now it’s a once every 2-3 weeks.

conniered
conniered
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

That one seems relatively easy…..look at what they DO after acknowledging their shit behavior. Changed behavior/actions over time would prove those words true or crap.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  QueenMother

They then go right back to baseline. My STBX will have moments where he seems to acknowledge that he is a shitty person. I believe these are simply tools he uses to try to get something he wants because he always (and I mean always) goes back to blaming me.

My favourite is how it is my fault that our kids will get less support because I wouldn’t agree to use his lawyer and quickly get a dissolution and now his baby mama is taking him back to court for more support. Ummm…I believe you are the one that created that child, not me. And thank God I didn’t use his lawyer. The amount of lies and the assets he has gambled away or spent on his latest AP and the creative accounting he is using to make almost $40,000 in income disappear means my kids would have gotten screwed multiple times over.

Paddington
Paddington
6 years ago

Oh those inconvenient consequences…

I know exactly why my ex hates me. When I found out about the EA (which was only what I could prove but believe was more) with a mitual hockey mom friend of ours I confronted him and sent her a surprisingly civil email asking her to leave him alone and never talk to him again. Her being the dutiful preacher’s daughter (eyes rolling) and likely for fear I would out her to the world so her kids and church community would find out (which was tempting but I resisted) she complied and completely blocked him for good. I know this for fact because it’s all he could talk about in counseling. “I can’t believe you would talk to her!!! I’ve tried to contact her and she’s blocked me!! I’m worried about her!!! I miss our daily texts!!! How could you???” You heard me right. My jaw was on the floor while the idiot counselor sat there calmly nodding and agreed it’s totally possible to “love” more than one person. So after 8 months’ worth of “wreckonciliation”, I subsequently kicked him to the curb a second time after discovering he was still trying to contact her. So yah, he hates me for destroying “what could’ve been.” She will forever sit on a pedestal in his sick twisted narc mind and he will make my life a “living hell” and is ready for “war” (as he told our mutual friends) all because I dared expect him to be faithful and be a part of our family, dared to demand respect, and dared to scare away his precious Schmoopie.

Let go
Let go
6 years ago

I had a school friend who was married three times. She talked about her husbands as if they were things, not people. She picked up and dropped friends over the most superficial reasons. She had affairs with married men. The reason we tolerated her was because she was hilarious, without meaning to be, and because she did not live close by. She died too young from a life of excess, alienated from her children. She used her money as a weapon. She never expressed regret or remorse and remains a topic of conversations because she was a textbook case.
I hate to bring this up but I think genetics is in the picture somewhere. Her parents were wonderful people but her grandfather had a reputation for the exact same behaviors.

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago