Fix Your Picker Tips

Hey, it’s Friday and maybe you have a date this weekend. Or a bad rash just thinking about dating. Or maybe there’s still a cheater snoring on your sofa. What you need are fix-your-picker BOUNDARIES!

Today’s Friday challenge is How to Fix Your Picker. If you’re a recovering chump like me, you need this skillset. And maybe a lifetime of refresher courses… (no, I really cannot host book club again… okay, okay, just this sixth time, but this is IT. Doesn’t anyone else have a sofa and cookies?)

Here are my Improved Picker tips:

Do NOT rescue anyone.

Healthy people don’t need rescuing. They pay their bills. They function like adults. And they manage their crises. Sure, everyone has some bad luck sometimes. We can all use a helping hand on rare occasion. But how people meet the challenges in their life says a LOT about them. Good people do not presume. If they lounge around on fainting sofas waiting to have their brow mopped while you bring them a hot toddy and your check book — steer clear.

Do NOT settle for lopsided arrangements.

You need a partner, a friend, not a project. Healthy relationships are based on reciprocity. Don’t do for someone who wouldn’t do for you. And don’t presume reciprocity (oh, of course they would) — watch what they do. Do they pick up the check? Would they hurry to do for you like you do for them? Do they get pleasure from giving to you? Or it is all about them?

I see a lot of straight men fall for this. They want to be a caretaker, feel needed and powerful, and are flattered by apparent “helplessness”. Choose a competent person with a job and their own money. Find an equal. Women fall for the caretaker role too — they jump in as “mommy” and polish the jerk up, find them employment, manage their life. DON’T DO THIS. Healthy people aren’t looking for parents and life coaches. That’s not your job, okay? Your job is girlfriend/boyfriend. That’s IT.

Do NOT run yourself down.

Oh, no one would want me because I’m a single parent/a special needs kid parent/I’m fat/I’m old… whatever. If you’re a good person and you’re responsible and loving? You’re a stock that trades high. Never forget it. Bonus points if you have all your hair and teeth.

Beware of people who lead with self pity.

Is it always someone else’s fault? Do they see themselves as a poor sausage, and worse, do they want you to see yourself that way too? Do they flatter you by running other people down around you? Oh, your parents don’t understand you. They suck. She’s out to get you. He wants your job. Wingnuts isolate their victims. Only you understand me. Wingnuts idolize and devalue you. Why? It’s easier to manipulate you that way. The self pity is real. You, however, are just of use.

Beware the love bombers.

If it seems too good to be true? It probably is. Take it slow. Crazy will reveal itself. Anyone who moves too fast or “loves” you before they have a good long time to get to know you? That’s a red flag. Pay attention to how much they really know about you. Are they truly paying attention to your quirks and interests or are they feigning it with vague, over the top praise? Do you feel like your best self with them, like you do a friend who loves you warts and all? Or do you feel like you’re living a fantasy? Keep it real, chumps and don’t be in a rush. Let enough time elapse to let their character show.

DO NOT BE AFRAID to dump someone.

If someone is pressuring you for a permanent commitment too soon (marriage, moving in with you), or on the other side, is vague and noncommital about exclusivity (after many months or years together) — DUMP. If you have deal breakers, abide by them. Don’t be afraid to “next” someone, because I promise you there is always a next. There are many, many people out there. You can afford to be choosey. Don’t panic if you meet a lot of sucky people, or decent not-quite-a-good-fit folks. You’ll learn from them, and may just enjoy something light and casual. Not everyone is life partner material, (assuming you even want that).

Be careful out there, chumps. A good heart is a terrible thing to waste on a fuckwit.

What have you learned about fixing your picker and un-chumping? Tell CN!

***

This is an updated post and the world could always use more FW warning signs.

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Sugarglider
Sugarglider
6 years ago

I’m still in the self -pity / run myself down phase I suspect. At 50, I just can’t imagine ever having a new relationship again. Having experienced the unexpected, sudden abandonment thing, where he ran off and has never been seen or heard from in the last 9 months (Ultimate NC!) I have very little to go on re: a dodgy picker. How will I ever know when I think it’s OK?

2xchump
2xchump
4 months ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

Not for a long time. You don’t need a man you need YOU back. That will take awhile. A man cures nothing, they just distract you. This is my sentiment after 2 cheaters. Sorry

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 months ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

Edited. Old post.

Last edited 4 months ago by OHFFS
Georgie
Georgie
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

I’m 9 months out and beginning to feel somewhat normal again but at 60 do not want to date. Luckily I was able to pay him out of the house and I will not let any one move in again. I can’t be bothered going through the whole process of getting to know someone again and as my ex was a ‘nice guy’ there is no way of knowing who is truly nice or not. I have lots of friends and will be happy on my own one day.

CurlyChump
CurlyChump
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

I’m 50 and I’ve been chumped twice – by husband and then domestic partner. I didn’t love my husband and was afraid of him, so I welcomed the opportunity to get myself and daughters out of that situation when he decided he’d rather be with OW (who would not keep seeing him if he stayed married to me). But…I loved my partner fiercely and we built a family together that was the most important thing in the world to me. She’s an addict and master liar, and she was incredibly destructive with her last affair. I went on a few dates with someone one year after LadyLiar left our home, but there were red flags (hey! at least I noticed them!) and I still wasn’t ready for a relationship. I miss intimate companionship, but I don’t trust anyone anymore.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  CurlyChump

When you trust yourself, it will be time to consider dating again. If you date an addict, you are setting yourself up for trouble. Addicts LIE. That’s part of their “disease.” You can “fix” them or “love” them into being honest.

Dandoopy
Dandoopy
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

My husband left me unexpectedly Jan.12th 2015. I still cry nearly everyday. He was the nicest, sweetest, most generous man i had ever known, so i thought. He tells me i was a bitch, which is probably true and he says that’s why he left. Plus he said i was fat (i was a size 10, 5’8, 155 lbs, not fat, but not skinny either, healthy) He always complained about my cooking, the way i dressed, the way i decorated the house, etc. nothing i did was ever good enough for him and he never thanked me or complemented me. One thing he did say was that no matter what, the sex is always great between us, but then he developed Erectile Dysfunction and that’s when he left me and our 3 sons to take his 30 year old assistant from work on a grand tour of Las Vegas. My Mom pointed out to me that he’s been browbeating me from the get go by making me sign a prenuptial and not giving me access to finances. Throughout the marriage i always felt like i was in the dark about money and his secretive ways. In hinesight, it was because of the prenuptial contract, i always felt like i could be replaced in heartbeat-and that’s exactly what happened. He was able to leave me so easily, no financial reprocussions. His company brings in 30 million a year and i am financially destitute. My mom wants me to fight the prenupt. Currently, I am now seriously dating another man who my mom says is treating me just like the Ex did, she says he’s the same kind of man. OMG she’s right. I am such a Chump!
I need to fix my picker!!!

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 months ago
Reply to  Dandoopy

Edited. Just noticed the post was old.

Last edited 4 months ago by OHFFS
LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  Dandoopy

“He was the nicest, sweetest, most generous man i had ever known.”

vs.

“My Mom pointed out to me that he’s been browbeating me from the get go by making me sign a prenuptial and not giving me access to finances. Throughout the marriage i always felt like i was in the dark about money and his secretive ways. In hinesight, it was because of the prenuptial contract, i always felt like i could be replaced in heartbeat.”

One lesson is fixing our pickers is learning to pay attention to what people DO. A man who makes you sign a pre-nup, is secretive about marital finances, and nurtures the idea you “could be replaced in a heartbeat” cannot, by definition, be “the nicest, sweetest, most generous man” anyone has known. He was just a guy who love bombed you with money that HE controls.

Fixing your picker is learning not to spackle to convince ourselves a bad person is a good one.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Dandoopy

Dandoopy

He’d make a great subhuman piñata hangin by his big balls.

Run that prenup by an attorney or two. And see a therapist before you end up with another Asshole. You deserve better!

DOCTOR's1stWife&Kids
DOCTOR's1stWife&Kids
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Dandoopy

Oh dear, your first few sentences make me wince, b/c he mistreated you but you describe him as being kind and sweet. And why would YOU say you were a bitch? (If so, maybe you tired of the put downs?)

Get a good therapist to help you see that he was NOT the sweetest most generous man; he was critical and demeaning. Get your mojo back. Get yourself back.

PLEASE see a doctor for your continued daily crying after 3 years. I am NOT saying you “should be over it” by any means! I’m saying you are stuck in the grief and it becomes a cycle that traps us. (Been there, done that.)

I was married 35 years, now separated 16 months. With intensive therapy I have come to accept the changes forced upon me with a more realistic & more positive eye. The mourning has been speeded up (and very aided, really) by my husband’s truly shitty behavior during the divorce. The shithead has not seen the kids for 16 months and has not spoken to our older 2 in a year. We have spoken once for a few minutes about insurance, in 16 months and ALL of that only happened after the court ordered him to pay me support. He then quit his job – well HE SAID he retired to avoid paying me. I had to hire a PI, etc etc etc

He appears to have replaced us all and that itself says a lot about him, NOT me or the children. It says that I was far more invested in the family and marriage than he was. I projected my moral compass and values onto him, which is why his behavior and choices were so damn confusing to ME. I can now see that -on most days.

Also please see several lawyers because with kids, there WILL be some money coming. MANY prenuptial don’t end up being as iron clad as the drafters pretend them to be. Check for failure to disclose, not having access to adequate counsel when you signed, etc.

I’m a lawyer and I’d never believe a prenup is unbreakable, without several legal opinions. Even if it were so, there is more for him to lose by fighting it and having the negative publicity than there is for you. In my situation since my ex was offering me so little, it did not make sense to not fight.

Like you, I was devastated by his departure. And did not see it coming although now in hindsight I should have. But his timing, OMG he left me right when I got very sick and I was impaired for a few months, utterly terrified of what was to come. And that is when my DOCTOR husband – whom I put through medical school and training, chose to abandon me.

It hurt deeply to see me and our kids replaced so fast…and so publicly. Let us REFRAME your loss…as mine has been reframed.

My therapist has helped me reframe my situation in 2 ways and both apply to your situation I think.

FOREMOST – my husband’s choices are not about me at all. They are too crazy and over the top…SO

What have I truly lost? (And what have YOU truly really lost?)

Whereas I lost a hard working, great wage earner with a good physique, and many dreams of the future I thought we’d have, and which I sacrificed for, for so long; I also lost a man with poor character, who was not loyal, I lost a man with a LOT of cognitive dissonance to maintain such a level of dishonesty for so very long. The DOCTOR is truly a practiced liar. I didn’t get it (or I chose not to get it), partly because of the sunk costs theory – which I suggest you read about.

HE lost a beautiful, intelligent hilarious and loyal wife, who liked/likes sex. He also wounded 3 great children who will never have a loving relationship with him again.

I didn’t really know why he left when I think about how much effort I put into the marriage, and how little he eventually did. I mean, he lowered the level of expectations I or the children could have of him at the end. He gave less & less over time. Became increasingly very critical. His selfish became a glowing blinking light no one could miss. Yet I was blamed for his working away from the family; he is a physician who can literally work anywhere in our country and most nations in the world.

(I sometimes wonder if he subconsciously wanted me to file for divorce. No matter.)

Do I or our children matter to him? If so, he’s lost a lot. Of course the fear is that we don’t matter much to them.

But in a way, I feel more pity for him if he doesn’t care b/c it means he leads a shallow life.

No normal person, no good person can deeply wound the 4 people who loved him the most – and emerge unscathed, unless he’s a completely cruel nut case who finally let his mask drop. So, consider that possibility…

Our son said “Good riddance to lunacy” and in your case, if you still see your critical sniping, demeaning husband as a sweet man, you are living in a lunatic world with a lot of gas lighting.

Turn off the gaslight and come into the daylight. It’s better out here. I have more inner peace now than I’ve had in a long time.

Chickynot
Chickynot
6 years ago
Reply to  Dandoopy

Dandoopy,

Sounds like your ex was a pathological, abusive, cheating turd. When you are still crying every night, you are not yet to the place where you emotionally realize this, even if you do so intellectually. NOT a good time to start dating again. You will get there! On the day you finally do, you will realize that by getting rid of X you dodged a bullet. ( To have to grow old with that narc shitbox, no matter how wealthy he is, will probably be hell. Schmoopie will get her karma). Till then, probably the best thing to do is learn how to have fun for yourself, without a lover. When you are able to do that, you will be able to date again, and be innoculated against these narcs. Go do the stuff YOU like to do by yourself — there’s not only no shame in that, but one of the perks of age is that people actually think you are COOL when you do. Have fun, and hope those tears are a thing of the past soon. And BE CAREFUL with present BF: don’t feel bad if you gotta say buh-bye.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

Don’t be too hard on yourself Sugar. NC helps. But it still takes time.

sugarglider
sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

Thanks for the remider

SuperDuperChump
SuperDuperChump
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

Sometimes, you have to look outside the box.

I am a 49 yr. old, Texas Country Boy. I grill an awesome ribeye, keep a sawed off shotgun under my front seat, watch college football, love dogs, scratch my balls occasionally in public, and listen to Country/Rock music.

I am in a committed relationship with a 47 yr. old woman from the city who is vegetarian, anti-gun, hates sports, has a cat, and listens to Jazz and Classical.

We are completely “opposite.”

I have never been happier.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago

Ph.D. dating a younger man who is a maintenance expert.

Traveling the World
Traveling the World
6 years ago

Awesome SuperDuperChump!

Strad
Strad
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

I’m 53, divorced for 3 years. I was married to cheaterX for 26 years, so the last time I dated was in the mid 1980s! I have no idea how to date anymore. (Online? No thanks.) I’m getting more and more comfortable with my post-divorce single life and embracing the idea of being content and alone forever.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Strad

Strad

I never dated anyone but the Limited. Together from sixteen to fifty seven.

It was akward at first. Instead of alone I consider myself independent. Living with a man who led a double life nearly broke me. The fucker claimed he liked single after Dday. And when the settlement was signed (in my favor) he said, “I think about you all the time.” My response, “I’m single!”

I’m dating a man I’ve known for years. We have a great time together. However. I’m still meeting new people. It took awhile to meet all CL’S criteria for fixing my picker. Being single opens up a whole new world and living in it without a fucking cheater is amazing.

violet
violet
6 years ago
Reply to  Strad

At 60, I am loving my partnerless life. I know it isn’t for everyone, but it also is not anything to be afraid or ashamed of. There are a lot of us single folks out there. As my nephew once told me,”There are worse things in life than being alone.”I may be alone, but I am also free, and that is a glorious feeling.

DOCTOR's1stWife&Kids
DOCTOR's1stWife&Kids
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

It’s better to be alone, than to wish you were…

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

I agree. I date a Very Kind Man but live alone and that will never change till I toddle off to assisted living or whatever is up ahead…

mila
mila
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

Violet – I am with you, 63 and enjoying life much more than the past 18 years.

sugarglider
sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  mila

Hey wow. … Cheers to all the beautiful mighty women. Reading your stories is great

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

Add me to the mix. I’m turning 65 next Tuesday and have been traveling on my own in my motorhome for a month and a half now. Having the best time! No one grumbling about anything or trying to ruin it all. Going where I want, when I want. Currently sitting at a great campsite in the New Mexico desert enjoying my first cup of coffee and a wonderful brisk, scented breeze. Couldn’t have done any of this with cheater ex. I’m one lucky, grateful woman!

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tessie–If you’re headed further south to the middle of TX, a reminder that you’re always welcome here!

geekmom
geekmom
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tessie – Your birthday is the 21st? Mine too – I’ll be turning 60 this year. Happy birthday to you!

And this fine, cold morning I’m sitting on my own sofa, in my own home, enjoying my coffee and sharing the quiet with my dog.

Last night, I walked into my home after work and into a surprise birthday party, arranged by my daughter. My dearest friends, my family – my two brothers, one who had to make special arrangements to fly home a day early from a business trip and the other who drove 300 miles to be here to surprise me – my dear mom, my son and his girlfriend- a house full of love and laughter. All for me. I still can’t believe they’d go to wo much trouble fo me.

Shithead cheater would NEVER have botherd – never did bother in nearly 40 years of marriage, but expected a parade and adulation on his birthdays.

Off I go; brother just woke up and time to talk and make some breakfast. Life is good.

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  geekmom

Why thank you, and happy birthday to you too sister Scorpio. That is so cool that your family would do something so loving for you. Isn’t it wonderful to see how many people really appreciate and love you? It’s a testament to your value as a good mom, daughter and sister, not to mention, a good friend.

Chumptopia
Chumptopia
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tessie…you are my hero!! I so want to travel around the country but it seems scary driving a motor home alone, but hey, you’re doing it! I wish I was there with you at that campsite enjoying a cup of jo. I’ve always wanted to see New Mexico.

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  Chumptopia

So far…. gorgeous!

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

I’ll put the coffee pot on and set out an extra chair Chumptopia.

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tessie, sounds super fun!
We live in a beautiful country!

GoWithYourGut
GoWithYourGut
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tessie,
That sounds amazing! I’m 43, with a job and teens/young adults still at home, but I’ve dreamt of doing what you described…taking to the road in a mobile home (I’d really love one of those adorable tiny homes). Maybe once the kids are completely self-sufficient, and I don’t have a bazillion bills to pay (which will be easier without my STBX spending SO MUCH on completely wasteful things), I will be able to hit the road and explore this wonderful country we live in!

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  GoWithYourGut

Its on the list, Day.

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Dang auto correct DAT.

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  GoWithYourGut

It’s so much fun, and doesn’t have to cost a lot if you boondock. (Dry camp)

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

If you ever make it to Virginia Tessie, I hope you’ll come park in my driveway for a day or so. Cheers!

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

I will be in the area this winter. Not sure when exactly yet.

Born Free
Born Free
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tessie, I’m meeting my friends in Joshua Tree to boondock in March. Maybe you’ll be nearby!

FindingBliss
FindingBliss
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tessie, you are one of my heroines! I can picture you there enjoying your morning coffee and I just want to say, Awesome! Enjoy the view and the coffee and the peace.

peacekeeper
peacekeeper
6 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Tessie,
You made my day. I am smiling, picturing you at your campsite enjoying the warmth and peace.
You certainly deserve this Tessie.
I hope you are in a very happy spot next Tuesday.
Early “Happy Birthday”wishes to an awesome Lady!

((((((Manyhugs)))))

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  peacekeeper

Awww, thanks. Hugs right back atcha…

Finally Free Heart
Finally Free Heart
6 years ago
Reply to  peacekeeper

I will be 70 in a couple of weeks. Have been on my own now for 6 years. The first few years were hard after 33 years of marriage. But now, I am actually happy this all happened. I am a much more together, contented person that I ever was. I have the best family and friends a person could ever want. So, another partner? Probably not. Though because I am happy, I have some new men “friends”. I do mean they are just friends. We volunteer together, have coffee together and lots of laughs. But we aren’t “dating” and that works for me. I hope this balanced life continues. You don’t need a partner to be happy.

Kathleen
Kathleen
6 years ago

Finally Free

I too am around your age. Married 34 years & abandoned 2 years ago for OW
I find my loneliness still is with me but I try to keep busy. Financially strapped causes me not to do the things I’d like to do but I take one day at a time

Karma hit my ex.. the ow died in a car accident last month & already he has a new woman in his life. That’s how shallow & cold he is.

Hopefully I’ll feel better as time passes.

Hugs to you ????

Khris
Khris
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

Count me into this too Violet. Am 55 and am very happy with my single existence. I am not afraid to date, I just choose not to. Like Violet said, not for everyone, but I don’t need a partner or spouse to complete me.

Chickynot
Chickynot
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

I’m with you, Violet! At 61, I have great friends, the good fortune to live in an area where there’s always something fun to do, and two great kids. As far as romance is concerned, “been there, done that, got the T shirt” with absolutely no desire to restrict myself with a relationship right now. Meh!

NorthChump
NorthChump
6 years ago
Reply to  violet

Violet – what a wise soul your nephew is! And how wise you are too. I love everything you wrote.

WorkingOnMeh
WorkingOnMeh
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

I’m also 50 and have been alone for over 4 years. I’m still scared to trust and put myself out there again. I feel like I now know what to look for and what to run from, but just getting out there is a huge hurdle.

deedee
deedee
6 years ago
Reply to  WorkingOnMeh

52 here, and on my own for 2 years (well, much longer, if you count the loveless non-relationship I stayed in for far too long). I disagree with “If you’re a good person and you’re responsible and loving? You’re a stock that trades high.”. It’s hard to feel like a high-trading stock when perimenopause makes me feel old, unfeminine, and the opposite of sexy. Not to mention there’s not exactly hordes of men making my phone ring off the hook.

Truth is, I’m still relatively attractive and there’s even one man (my own age!!!) who is pursuing me. But all I can think is: “he can date women 10 years younger. What the hell does he want from from an old lady like me?” *sigh*.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

Well my ex left me for a woman who is almost exactly a year older than me (he is also a year older than me) so no, they don’t all go for younger models. Alas, it seems that our cheaters prefer women of questionable moral character regardless of age.

Newme
Newme
6 years ago

Yes! Mine left me for some who is 7 years old then me and him. Of course she has no moral character, she was married and sleeping with a married man.

Born Free
Born Free
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

deedee – I’ve met many single men in my age group that want to date “age appropriate” women. They like being able to talk about things in common. They know what they’re doing. They may be worried about their own appearance and age (or sexual attractiveness).

If there’s a guy interested in you, trust that he has eyes, ears and a brain. He’s well aware that there are women younger, hotter and richer. He’s interested in YOU.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
6 years ago
Reply to  Born Free

Enthusiasm and a sense of humor is essential to good fucking. Everything else can be learned 🙂

I don’t see any age issues for relationships, what I see is a culture that insists women are past their expiration date at 30 and men don’t have an expiry. Look at ads, see the smooth perfect face of the woman selling the perfume, see the craggy wrinkled face of the man selling the cologne. Culture, men are allowed to age, women are not. I see culture that thinks a man with a woman 10-20 years younger is OK. At the same time the same age differential woman to man is considered awful or weird. Patriarchy, statistically women live longer and healthier in general than men, the age differential should skew to older women and younger men in relationships. And because someone will say it, I’m just answering ahead of time: Biology my ass, there is no scientific basis for that claim, it’s an excuse.

ChumpyKindofLove
ChumpyKindofLove
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

@DeeDee – I’m 49 and my BF is also 49 – but before me he was dating a 28 year old. TWENTY EIGHT. When I found this out, I was HORRIFIED. She was old enough to be high daughter. I was plagued with insecurity – even though they had already broken up months before I met him. On his dating profile I literally laughed out loud when he listed the age range of women he wanted to date as 28-48… I laughed and said “yeah right buddy, like any 28 year old would date YOU”…. until I found out he was dating her 2 years! They broke up because she hounded him for a baby and he would not comply. So, that’s one thing you got going. Lots of guys our age are “done with children. ALSO, he said (and I quote – please forgive crudeness) “women under 30 don’t know how to fuck”… he said the younger women may have tight bodies but he said they are not good in bed. His words, not mine. Finally, he said he “ran out of things to talk about” with her. They had nothing in common culturally (he and I laugh ALL the time, we both grew up in the 80’s, like or have at least seen all the same movies, like the same music etc). Yeah I’m old like him, but he seems to be pretty happy with me. We’ve been happily living together over a year. BTW I was 10 years younger than my X and know what he said about me the last 18 years? I was “old”. No kidding. So, guys hung up on youth are just pathetic but there ARE guys OUR AGE who like women OUR AGE. So, GO FOR IT with your friend your age!!

deedee
deedee
6 years ago

Thank you, Chumpy. I totally believe your man when he says he ran out of things to talk about with the 28 year old. Wasn’t that the issue with Prince Charles and Diana? Not so sure I’m on board with the “women under 30 don’t know how to fuck” thing, though ????. Happy for you that you found a good one!

As for the guy my age who likes me – he’s in the “decent-but-not-quite-a-good-fit” category. But I’m very grateful to him for helping me shake off the feeling of total undesirability that my Ex left me with.

TorontoChump
TorontoChump
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

I’m worried I still don’t know how to f*ck! I’ve only been with two guys my whole life and one of those was Nasty McCheater-Pants, who never seemed happy with my “performance.” My hope is that even if I’m a lousy lay, when the time comes for me to (possibly) date and fall in love again, that the next guy will be happy to help me improve.

RiseUpandLive
RiseUpandLive
6 years ago
Reply to  TorontoChump

My ex presented a “No Sex” ( in bubble letters at the top of the page.) timeline to friends and family to justify the cheating. The bad sex was always blamed on me.

I am now in a relationship with my first crush (1st grade). He tells me I am the best lover he has ever had in his life. We have been dating for a year and a half and still have sex multiple times a day. I agree with Deedee. Great sex is more than “ Performing” It has an intangible intimate component. Chumps have the capacity for this connection with another person. Narcs do not. That is why my ex needed the excitement of bjs and anal sex with a howorker in the minivan in the elementary school parking lot.

Mmargaret
Mmargaret
6 years ago
Reply to  TorontoChump

My first boyfriend hurt me so bad in that department. When I knew better, it was really hard to forgive him in my heart, but now I just laugh because he missed out.

Jo
Jo
6 years ago
Reply to  TorontoChump

Certain Womenfolk “don’t know how to fuck” is not a kind, or true, thing for anyone to say. Period. Note his blameshifting for the years of so-called bad sex (riiiiight) with someone 20 years his junior. And the triangulation— that’s not a compliment to the current partner, that’s a red flag. So, I used to spackle over this same type of shit. “But he just has a really crass/funny sense of humor that only he and I really understand…” Yeah, I said that a lot. It’s hard to see it when the insult comedy is just so golden, but stick around long enough and you’ll be the butt of the joke, too.

deedee
deedee
6 years ago
Reply to  TorontoChump

Sex is not really about technique or “performance”. McCheater-Pants must have lacked all the spiritual and emotional intangibles that make sex transcend the physical act. You don’t need to improve your performance – just your picker!
P.S. fellow Toronto chump. Nice crisp sunny day today, eh?

Aeronaut
Aeronaut
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

deedee,

I’ll speculate on his behalf here, since I don’t know him. He wants to be with someone genuine. He wants to be with someone his own age, with common life experiences, similar average life expectancy, and so forth.

I’m 53, and happily remarried. But if I were single right now, I wouldn’t want to date a 40 year old, or a 35 year old. I’d want to be with someone my age, someone I could grow old with, not grow old as they finish maturing. I want a partner, not a nursemaid for when I’m 75.

FWIW, my wife is 7 months older than I am. Anything within 2 years is ideal as far as I’m concerned.

A man in his 50s who wants to date women in their 30s for their looks and youthfulness is shallow and narcissistic. A man in his 50s who wants to date women in their 30s because he doesn’t have kids and wants some, and will overlook the age difference if she is willing to, that’s legit. And he better be willing to really take care of his health so that he can be there for her when he’s in his 80s and she’s in her 60s.

You’re doing exactly what CL warns about – don’t devalue yourself. There’s someone out there who wants you for you. Integrity, wisdom, kindness and honesty are worth a lot more in a spouse than a hot body with fewer miles on it.

Hugs. Strength. Peace.
aeronaut

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  Aeronaut

Very wise advice Deedee. Go for It!!

champchump
champchump
6 years ago
Reply to  Aeronaut

I respectfully have to disagree with one of your statements, Aeronaut. A man in his 50s looking for a woman in her 30s is just not right under any circumstances.

If a man hasn’t had kids by the time he’s in his 50s, he needs to just forget about it. He’s not doing anyone any favors by procreating at that stage in his life. Who wants a dad in his 70s when you’re graduating from high school? What woman really wants an 80-year-old husband when she’s 60? And what good reason is there for a woman in her 30s to accept a man in his 50s as the father of her babies? I’m sorry, but large 20+ age differences just creep me out.

I would seriously question the motivation of any man old enough to be a grandfather who professes “wanting kids” as the motivation for marrying a woman 20 years younger than himself.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
6 years ago
Reply to  champchump

Yes, I agree having kids that late can be selfish and inconsiderate. Some men don’t care. They have babies that late just because they can.

Cheater x is turning 61, just married 29 year old AP, and had a brand new baby. In his mind, he has given her a great gift and loves to create “mini-me’s” everywhere, more people to worship him.

Our teens cannot resist the baby. With his doting mother (in her 90’s), our teenage daughters, and hot new wife, he doesn’t need to lift a finger much less change a diaper.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago

There is a high rate of sever mental illness in folks who have older fathers (it has to do with how long meiosis has been going on and the possibility for genetic accidents after that much time). These psych disorders often dont manifest until about the age of 20…so when wifetress is 50 and has an 81 year old hubby, she may find her 20 yr old in deep difficulty. I dont wish this on young people, Im not judging, its just a thing

sugarglider
sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  Aeronaut

Aeronaut I know you wrote to deedee but……. Yeah the OW is 33. this helps me to see what i have to track in myself

Battle-Tempered Lionheart
Battle-Tempered Lionheart
6 years ago
Reply to  sugarglider

Here is an article I found empowering. Essentially it says, look at all these celebrity chumps. They clearly did not get cheated on because they are (less than, ugly, poor earners, out of shape, or whatever b.s. you think about yourself).

https://www.infidelityhelpgroup.com/2014/12/23/celebrity-infidelity/

P.S. Thanks to the chump who recommended this site a few days ago. Many helpful articles here.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  sugarglider

Sugar

“Educated, employed, intelligent, healthy, self supporting……so why did this happen?”

Haha, my therapist had the answer to this question.

He said, “He can’t get intelligent, attractive, or someone employable (she’s mentally ill, gambling addict, addicted to pain meds, ugly, and explosive-yet fuckable with an arrest record a mile long for assault, dwi, lisence suspension).

Regardless of looks and age they seek out someone with a lack of class and morals. The Limited is at the end of his supply peak. He’s an old Narc and falling apart. He turned sixty this summer.

I on the other hand am fairly attractive, earn a good salary and have a degree I earned later in life.

Spending time untangling Cheater Logic always comes back to- it’s all on them. Not you. It’s all about entithement and power and control.

I’ll be damned if I waste my energy believing his life is better. He’s a dickless coward.

Sugarglider
Sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

“Spending time untangling Cheater Logic always comes back to- it’s all on them.”
YES!! every time I untangle the logic around an event, it ends up with “so – he must have been lying” or similar – and I have long accepted that it is nonsense. That there is no answer because it doesn’t make any sense.

My therapist pointed out that I am not the woman he started with. I have grown up over the years, but he didn’t do any more study, volunteering, career development etc and just stagnated – so he is still 33.

I’ve let him go – but yet to find my way forward. this is a useful post for me right now.

deedee
deedee
6 years ago
Reply to  Aeronaut

Thank you, aeronaut. You’re right, of course. Not every man is a shallow, young-skirt-chasing stereotype. It’s just hard to live in a culture that worships youth – especially in women. I mean, my body is in “hotter” shape now than it was in my 30s (thanks to working out regularly), but men don’t “check me out” anymore. That’s ok – I don’t need to be ogled at this point in my life – but it’s an indication that things are not as easy as they used to be.

It’s good to be reminded that quality men like you do exist!

ChumpedbyLoser
ChumpedbyLoser
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point, and I disagree with your friend’s husband. My wife is 5 months older than I am. We are 55. If I were out there dating, the last thing I would want is someone younger than me and competing with guys her own age. I would be afraid that she is more interested in my wallet than she is in me. Otherwise, she would be dating guys her own age. I have been lied to before about someone’s feelings for me, and that was before I could offer financial security. Now, I would be convinced that the financial security is the only thing of interest. No – it would be someone around my own age that I can discuss the past, present and plan the future with.

While I certainly respect any woman’s desire to go it alone, I still do not think a woman’s lack of confidence in the dating world at really any age is justified. The value of what you bring to the relationship table is just too great. Trust me on this one, the right guy is out there looking for you.

Sunflower36
Sunflower36
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

This was the only place I could reply to your last thought on this thread.

Thank you for that. It helps to focus on those.

ChumpedbyLoser
ChumpedbyLoser
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

Ok. This is fair. I could write a whole blog on this one. You might have to move over, Chump Lady!! Since nobody would want that, I will try to keep it short and to the point.

Lets look at what the right guy wants, or even needs, even if he does not know it, versus what you are offering. As I mentioned in other posts, he is looking for a partner, but the point is, he needs a partner in all aspects of his life. That means someone he can share past experiences with, both positive and negative, and discuss what was learned from those experiences. In short, I am talking about wisdom. You bring that.

He needs somebody that he can discuss the day-to-day challenges with, both personal and professional, to determine the best course of action, taking into account the empathy required for the other side of the challenge. I am talking about integrity, kindness and honesty. You bring that.

He needs somebody who will challenge him to expand his world to include other interests and experiences. You are not his clone. You have other interests, and he may find he enjoys them simply because you do. You bring that.

He needs somebody who can accompany him to required social engagements, both personal and professional, who will not embarrass him by her conduct, who he is proud to have by his side. I am talking about maturity. You bring that.

He needs somebody who he can set both short-term and long-term goals with, determine how those goals will be achieved, and work with together to achieve those goals. They mean so much more when they are achieved by joint partner efforts. You bring that.

It is not about the cooking and the cleaning. If he has been at all successful, he can simply pay to have that done if he does not wish to do them himself. It is not even about the sex, although of course, sex is important. For a decent mature man, sex is not about getting off. It is about sharing the intimate experience with the most important person in his world. It is not your duty. You don’t owe a man anything, and you damned sure don’t owe him sex. It is something that you both share because you respect and love the other. With the right guy, you bring that.

In short, I am talking about mutual respect, honesty, integrity, empathy, wisdom, maturity, the perfect combination of selfishness and selfless-ness, and all the other aspects of that perfect partner relationship. That is what he is looking for. That is what he needs, even if he does not know it. You bring that to the relationship table, and its value is priceless.

That Is Not A Thing
That Is Not A Thing
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

Sobbing. Thank you for explaining this.

That Is Not A Thing
That Is Not A Thing
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

This is really kind of you to say, and maybe that’s the crux of it; that we DON’T understand what we bring. Not that we don’t believe you, it’s just really hard to appropriate after so many years of being looked down on.

There’s so much red pill stuff about how we owe men sex, and so much assault that if the value is just our anatomy, well, that doesn’t seem that special. And our youth is gone. And we’re all a little bit busted up on the inside. So what do we bring?

I know for myself that I loved someone well and faithfully, raised our children, stayed in shape, contributed financially and always did more than my share in almost every area. It is thus hard to imagine our kindness and devotion being that important, because they certainly weren’t enough to keep husband faithful. So… what? I make a mean spaghetti? Will I be replaced by Olive Garden at random?

I have a new boss with whom I work closely. He’s so… decent. It’s weird. A gift to get to know someone slowly over a year who appreciates me, compliments my work, and then does his own. I know what a good employee I am, but it still feels super strange to have someone just be nice. Every day. For no reason. With no agenda.

Skorts
Skorts
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

Could you articulate what this value is that we don’t know we bring to the table? Because I’m not sure I know.

ChumpedbyLoser
ChumpedbyLoser
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

From a man’s perspective, they are still checking you out. They have just learned to be more discreet about it than they were in their 20s and 30s. It always amazes me when you women come on here and think that your stock is not high for any reason. I mean I get it – I was chumped too, so I understand the self-esteem hit that one takes from that. However, you women so underestimate the value of what you have to offer. I see it time and time again on here, and I will admit that it leaves me baffled every time I see it. It seems to me that the only thing that you are lacking is the confidence that was stolen from you by your cheater. Well, fuck the cheater. You own your confidence, and you can take it back.

As far as the single guy out there, Aeronaut is exactly right. If he is worthwhile to you, he is looking for a partner. He wants someone who has had similar life experiences that he has had, and that he can share future life experiences with. If he is in his 50s and single, his heart has been broken too. It may have been by death, but more likely it has been by someone ripping it out and stomping all over it. Sound familiar? He is probably busy in his career and has no idea how to meet you, even though he would really like to. Even if he does meet you, he is probably scared to death to approach you and ask you out on a date. Remember, his confidence has been shattered too. He has probably convinced himself that he will be alone for the rest of his life, and has resigned himself to that reality. How do I know all this? I was that guy for a good decade before my fellow chump and I fell into each other and nursed each other back to reality.

If he is in his 50s and is looking for someone in his 30s, he is not the guy for you. Fix your picker, and don’t settle for less than you deserve.

I am sorry this has become lengthier than I intended for me to try to get you women to stop devaluing yourselves. Your stock is extremely high, but you do not recognize that fact. I can understand it, but I don’t understand it. Does that make sense to you?

DOCTOR's1stWife&Kids
DOCTOR's1stWife&Kids
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

Chumped By Loser,

I needed to read what you wrote in November (below) – I probably needed to read it before now but as with love and commitment and loyalty, I say “better late than never.”

Herein is some of what resonated so much with me tonight, (BTW as I’ve been stood up by a cute guy I never met and I THINK it’s b/c my soon to be ex & I were featured in a prominent “thing” that discussed our “35 years of a wonderful marriage” and how we navigated the primaries/election last year. WHILE we were being interviewed, h had already been making plans & I did not get the memo, or he was readying for the big coercion.

HERE IS WHAT YOU WROTE—

– It always amazes me when you women come on here and think that your stock is not high for any reason. I mean I get it – I was chumped too, so I understand the self-esteem hit that one takes from that. However, you women so underestimate the value of what you have to offer. -It seems to me that the only thing that you are lacking is the confidence that was stolen from you by your cheater. Well, fuck the cheater. You own your confidence, and you can take it back.
-If he is worthwhile to you, he is looking for a partner. He wants someone who has had similar life experiences that he has had, and that he can share future life experiences with. If he is in his 50s and single, his heart has been broken too.

Even if he does meet you, he is probably scared to death to approach you and ask you out on a date. Remember, his confidence has been shattered too. He has probably convinced himself that he will be alone for the rest of his life, and has resigned himself to that reality. How do I know all this? I was that guy for a good decade before my fellow chump and I fell into each other and nursed each other back to reality.

If he is in his 50s and is looking for someone in his 30s, he is not the guy for you. Fix your picker, and don’t settle for less than you deserve.***

THIS ^^^^ IS GOLDEN—THANK YOU

JeanM
JeanM
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

CBL, thank you for the B12 shot.
????

NewBeginnings
NewBeginnings
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

Thank you, as a 50+ woman who hasn’t dated for 25 years I needed to hear that I am still an attractive option for some men (the kind of man I want for a partner!) Thank you!

deedee
deedee
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

ChumpedbyLoser, I really appreciate your words of encouragement. I must tell you, though, that what you say is not my experience. Most of the men I know in their late 40s – mid 50s, who are divorced or widowed, have had no problems whatsoever finding a partner within a year or two of becoming single.

My married girlfriend always tries to fix me up with this-or-that recently divorced man. Her husband generally listens on and doesn’t say a word. One time, I said to my friend – “why would so-and-so want to go out with me when he’s probably looking for a younger woman?” My friend’s husband piped up and said, “you’re right. No offense, but if I were dating now, I wouldn’t be looking for anyone my age. No man would”.

And there you have it. Now, I know that doesn’t mean every man thinks like this (case in point: you and aeronaut). But such an attitude is very common and completely acceptable. It’s biologically and evolutionarily explainable.

So, when you say you can’t understand why we women lack confidence in the dating world – this is part of the reason. The good thing is that many women in their 50s – including me – are not all that freaked out by the prospect of being on our own. So, on the one hand, we may have lost some ability to attract an age-appropriate partner, but on the other hand, we don’t really care as much as we used to about having one.

ChumpedbyLoser
ChumpedbyLoser
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

It happened because the guy you were with was an idiot with a personality or other mental disorder. That is on him. It is not on you.

As mentioned above, it takes time. I just hope your recovery is speedier than mine to know that none of it was your fault. NONE. OF. IT!!

sugarglider
sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  ChumpedbyLoser

so great! Ok so yes. …. I am not valueing myself highly enough. And yet….this is part of the confusion. Cause i think…’hey i am as good as anyone. Educated, employed, intelligent, healthy, self supporting……so why did this happen?”
but i clearly back 20 yrs ago was just so happy to finally have a relationship and 20 yrs on he was still there. So its gonna take me a while longer to work out my picker and my boundaries thanks for the shot of wake up!

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  Aeronaut

yes, us too. Chumped badly at 40, wreckonciliation from Hell, widowed at 48, dated new hub at 49, married at 50/51 were both now 53. No way either of us would want to be with someone much younger. I do joke that he is the only successful 50 yr old (he retired at 51) who was willing to date his age. We had that conversation:

while dating prior to engagement…

me: you know you could date someone younger, even have more kids, right?

him (single and not dating 12 years): If I were going to do that I would have done it by now

We like that we take life at the same speed…we have dorky old people hobbies and enjoy the same things

JeanM
JeanM
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Unicorn, that is wonderful..

SuperDuperChump
SuperDuperChump
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

He is pursuing you and not someone 10 years younger simply because:

YOU are attractive, responsible, loving and are a stock that trades high.

jumper
jumper
6 years ago

I love you SDC…what a nice comment

deedee
deedee
6 years ago

Thanks, SuperDuper.
Just read your post below about dating your cat-loving, vegetarian, total opposite. Chemistry is a mysterious thing!

SuperDuperChump
SuperDuperChump
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

Read my letter in the archives. July 13…”Miracles Happen on Tuesdays.”

Best of wishes for you.

deedee
deedee
6 years ago

Read it! Serendipity stories are my faves. Her car just happened to not start when she just happened to be parked next to you, and you just happened to know car mechanics … Great ending to a crappy story of massive betrayal.
Continued happiness, SuperDuper!

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago

Yes Deedee, you must read SuperDuper’s post from that day. Almost every day I remember it, for some mysterious reason when I park my car at work (probably because my place is in front of a nice park where a resident toucan lives) and I smile and think how wonderful life is even with the shit.

Sunflower36
Sunflower36
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

I’m 50 too. He told me on my 49th birthday he was leaving me. I’ve spent my life raising kids and still have two young ones at home. Dating seems a daunting task right now.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

Sugarglider

Pick yourself first. I’ll raise my hand for the caretaker, fixer role I assumed. It takes time and practice to take care of your needs. It will give you the strength necessary to even consider dating at some point. There’s a lot of boundary setting in all our other relationships that comes first also. It took a few years to get there.

Wiseoldowl
Wiseoldowl
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Once I started putting myself first and didn’t always run to everyone’s aid (aide – so?? brain freeze) I was “bitter”, “in a bad mood”, most people stopped calling.

It was very easy to weed out people that only used me when they needed me. My sister, for one and actually most of my very good friends. I wasn’t in a bad mood or bitter, I was/am happier than I’ve ever been but people who knew me never saw me any other way.

Not only was I letting my husband watch me jump through hoops but so did everyone else. My circle of “friends” and family became much much smaller but I learned a lot about my picker when I started speaking up for myself.

JeanM
JeanM
6 years ago
Reply to  Wiseoldowl

WOO, this is so true.
Weed out the users and abusers..

Born Free
Born Free
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

sugarglider –
I’m so sorry that you’re here at CL with us. It’s a terrible blow to discover your spouse is a sneak and a coward. Running away like yours did is childish!!!

I’m older than you. There are plenty of nice, trustworthy, attractive men out there!

You are way too fresh to even think about it now. The shock of your betrayal & abandonment will mess with your head for a while. Self care and getting your legal situation addressed should be your sole focus now.

You can do this. We’re here to help you get through it.

sugarglider
sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Thanks Doingme. The shift from poor me to first me is still a bit hard right now. i can work on it.

Rebecca
Rebecca
6 years ago
Reply to  Doingme

Sugarglider,
Has it been 9 months since your D Day or 9 months since you last heard from the cheater?
Is the cheater an ex yet?

It takes a LONG time to even start healing from infidelity. Years, not months!!!

Especially after 50 (when dating is with a different body and mind than you probably didn’t have the last time you dated).

Please don’t date until you are ready.

In your case, ready means that you’re no longer tracking the last time you heard from the cheater! It should be more like you can’t remember when you heard from them last and don’t even care.

And, there is a huge difference between dating before you’re ready and dating when your mind and heart are truly available.

sugarglider
sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  Rebecca

9 months since both. He blithely announced he was “ending our relationahip”, admitted the affair, and took off. Refused to reply to any form of contact and i decided not to chase him. Formalities are not done but i am close to initiating. Thanks for explaining the difference. And 1 like yourpoint about the 20 yr difference since lasr dating.

lulutoo
lulutoo
6 years ago
Reply to  sugarglider

Sugarglider, when you wrote “and I decided not to chase him” I yelled ‘YAY for Sugarglider!’ That alone shows that you are mighty.

Sugarglider
Sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  lulutoo

thanks Lulutoo – I very much appreciate that!

Caroline Bowman
Caroline Bowman
6 years ago
Reply to  Sugarglider

do not be even a tiny, tiny bit surprised when (not if. Definitely when) at some stage in the future, most likely when you genuinely are happy and ticking along well, either with someone else or not, but just actually content and happy with a full, good life, your Houdini re-appears, via an email or some other exploratory, non-committal ”I’ve been thinking about us, how are you?” exploratory communique.

They very, very often do this when things haven’t really worked out as planned with Twu Wuv or Schmoopie or Miss New Boobs. You’re a good fall-back option and for certain they are keeping that line in the water to the extent that they know very well when you are doing fine, are happy, not actually thinking or them much at all… and this brings them leaping back, without you ever saying a word.

Do not, under any circumstances, fall for this crap. This sociopathic abandonment is a gift, be glad you were strong and mighty enough to say ”oh, okay” and leave it at that. Never cave, not for any reason. He will resurface. It will leave you all shaky and upset. Be ready and just shake it off.

Janet
Janet
6 years ago

Thanks for the helpful tips chump lady 🙂 I’m still working on not running myself down… I hope I can find genuine love one day but I can’t even bring myself to go on a date right now 🙁 It’s so hard not to feel worthless after someone you loved does such awful things to you (and stupid… how did I not see it… and ashamed, because it took me so long to leave).

Right now I have a really sweet pet parrot to come home to and that’s getting me by. And I recently discovered chocolate-flavoured red wine. That’s helped 😛

Stay strong fellow chumps!!

Annie
Annie
6 years ago
Reply to  Janet

Hi, long-time lurker here with a good chocolate wine recommendation. I like the Chautauqua Chocolate- it’s a little less sweet. https://www.willowcreekwines.net/home.aspx

Also, CL & CN have been more effective for me than years of therapy. Thank you, all.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

When we fix our picker, we fix the 1/2 we bring to the relationship. And that makes relationships with some people impossible. If you aren’t in the “fixer upper” business, you can’t pick an addict or chronically unemployed person or someone who is “broken.” They can’t do relationships and you know you can’t fix that, so they aren’t in your eligible pool. And they wouldn’t want you because you aren’t in the business of fixing people and doing life for them instead of yourself.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

NO shit. I have a total ass at work who is making shit miserable for more than me but he’s got me in his sights to take down. I knew who he was within a week, he confirmed it within a month. Thing is, I would normally leave the job but finding work that is 4 days a week telework is not easy, I like it. Also, he’s pissed me off, he has been trying to get me fired. Sabotage, lying, omitting info, fucking with rep, you name it he does it, and he does it very well. He has gotten rid of good people in favor of incompetent sycophants. At this point, I will drive him off this job or he will cave to appropriate behavior. I don’t give a shit anymore which way it ends. Actually I do, it’s stressing me out at a gut level working under the conditions. I know I need to bail if it doesn’t resolve soon, but I see light in the tunnel of getting him to leave or fucking act right, so I’m giving it a bit of time.

Tessie
Tessie
6 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Good for you Dat. It is tough having to fight for what is yours, but sometimes, necessary. You are courageous, and canny enough to know when to throw in the towel. Hugs….

FedUpChump
FedUpChump
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

That’s a great point! I have realized during this whole process that I have a seriously defunct picker. I have a particular “friend” who is verbally and emotionally abusive. She is subtle and often times I leave a conversation wondering wtf just happened. Just the other day, we were talking about a tragedy that happened 15 years ago involving the death of a small boy (18 months). He drowned in a river under the supervision of a babysitter.
My friend knew the family, who at the time were living on the river in a camper.
After finding out about the boys death and the location where he drowned, we realized we were nearby hiking along the hillside of a canyon. I remember being shocked that this happened near where we were.
My “friend” was recalling the events when she stayed angrily “We were hiking and I remember I REALLY wanted to talk with them but YOU had to go”.
News to me.
I absolutely do not recall her really wanting to talk with anyone nor that I had to go anywhere. But in that instant I felt like she was somehow indicating that the tragedy may have been prevented if not for me.
I know it is unlikely we could have intervened and I’m 99% sure no such conversation took place, but for whatever reason, this “friend” feels the need to rewrite history to make me out to be somehow responsible.
Even if it was true and she begged me to see her friends and I insisted we leave, why someone would further potential feelings of guilt involving such a tragic incident is something I cannot understand. As a friend to anyone, I would NEVER say that.

Born Free
Born Free
6 years ago
Reply to  FedUpChump

That’s some serious fuckdom there. Get away from her.

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Oh, how true CL. I used to be a Chump in every aspect of my life (except as a Mom, I am an awesome parent, not Chumpy at all). My sister, brother, and both my parents tried to control, shame, and use me after my divorce. How shocked they were, when I shut that shit down CN style! No more Narc abuse in my life, I see that coming and head it right off at the pass! Boom!
I love my new freedom and self sufficiency. I live alone, and it feels good, and strange, at the same time, but it’s definitely teaching me life lessons I really need. Maybe I’ll live with someone, someday, but right now I like the solitude and peace.

mila
mila
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Tracy – Excellent point, fixing your picker is about all relationships!

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Exactly! I can pay lip service to the idea of dating but it in reality, it is like talking about that trip down under I would like to take one day. It is a possibility but it is more of a dream at this point. I am not even divorced yet and with my fuckwit, it isn’t likely to be soon although I can hope.

I am finding myself putting every relationship in my life under a microscope and analyzing people’s actions to the nth degree. I question everybody’s motives. Some of that is good but I catch myself being almost paranoid and that isn’t good.

The catch 22 is love bombing can be subtle and confused with just niceness. The things fuckwit did when we dated seemed like nice touches not grandiose. Now I can total them up with speed , his subtle: I am just a dumb tradesmen, everyone is jealous of you, and I love you after only 3 weeks(probably the most glaring red flag I spackled over.

I recently had to get a new auto policy and the agent I went to is a friend of many years but not someone I am close to at all. He is going through a divorce so we have talked about the awfulness of it. Anyway, he has been telling me that I could sell insurance and it would be a great way to work from home. I told him I will consider but find myself completely analyzing him and his motives and wanting to distance myself from him. I may have good reason but who knows.

I feel like I do a complete character analysis of everyone I know and meet. It makes me feel judgemenatal and snobby. Is there a happy medium?

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

Maybe still do the complete character analysis the same as you do now, but be flexible about how the person fits, or doesn’t fit, in your life? Not every person you know well needs to be in your inner circle. Maybe that’s not applicable to you. I just know it’s applicable to me, a thing I had to practice.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

You are right. I think most chumps probably have a higher than average degree of empathy which makes us vulnerable. I think people open up to me because I am non threatening but then I tend to be too open in return.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

Twinsies. 🙂

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

You were (and are still being) traumatized by what he did. It may take some time to let your guard down. And until you get more confident in your instincts, I think you will be analyzing people. Don’t be too hard on yourself. I’m right there with you.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Jobs included.

sugarglider
sugarglider
6 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

Oh yes. I have hung around too long hoping things improve in many of my jobs.

unicornomore
unicornomore
6 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

I have had a very bitter awakening that I was so used to being used and manipulated by my then-spouse, I was also badly used and manipulated by my work…it was awful to wise-up to the amount of crap I took from them. I tried to force them to do right by me and they refused. My legal recourse had passed its statute of limitations had been exceeded so yea, we can get so accustomed to abuse that it feels normal

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

I took more abuse from my former boss than I should have too. I guess I thought it was ok because he abused everybody else too. I am fortunate to now work for a company that values me and the work I do. That worked out so maybe I will find the right guy someday too. I can always hope.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  unicornomore

It is the little things that you do that I hope will gradually empower me.

I gave myself a pat on the back the other day for ending a phone conversation with a friend because another call I was expecting came in. That is the kind of stuff that was hard for me because I would worry about hurting someone’s feelings. Chump vulnerability.

love and chumpiness
love and chumpiness
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

Totally get where you’re coming from Feelingit

Battle-tempered Lionheart
Battle-tempered Lionheart
6 years ago

Me too. Tiny things like recognizing when I’m hungry or “nature calls”, realizing I have the right to eat or pee asap.
This comes from years of putting my needs aside. Even those needs.
It seems ridiculous and extreme.
But, Baby Steps.

twiceachump
twiceachump
6 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Very good point. I know I’ve been a chump my whole life in all of my relationships. The boyfriends prior to the now ex husband were cheaters. My dad was a cheater. I joke now with my mom that ‘I married my dad’. Fun loving, never met a stranger, outgoing (realize now as kibble seeking). I’m shy and have always been attracted to these outgoing, take charge types.

deedee
deedee
6 years ago
Reply to  twiceachump

Same here. I’m somewhat introverted and reserved. Never needed a huge circle of friends and socializing exhausts me. My Ex is an extreme extrovert. Always center of attention; hogs the limelight; everyone is a friend; constantly talking to strangers everywhere he goes.

It never occurred to me that this was kibble-seeking behaviour until I found CL and CN! Now I see it as a pathological need for constant attention/adulation from every and any source available. He preferred strangers over me because I was a devalued kibble-dispenser who was no longer dazzled and WOWed by his sparkly sparkles. So grateful I found this place!!

Rae44
Rae44
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

“He preferred strangers over me because I was a devalued kibble-dispenser who was no longer dazzled and WOWed by his sparkly sparkles.”

Omg! This is exactly it!!! ????????‍♀️

GoWithYourGut
GoWithYourGut
6 years ago
Reply to  deedee

deedee,

Me, too! Also an introvert and very reserved, and mostly prefer to be at home watching tv or reading. And my STBX and his whore are both so narcissistic. Back when she was my best friend, she was EXHAUSTING to be around. And then, after DDay#2 (1st one between them), I started realizing how similar the two of them are. They’re both kibble hogs!

It was a relief when I stopped talking to her (just before DDay), and now that he’s moved out (just after most recent DDay), exponential relief!

Sausalito
Sausalito
6 years ago
Reply to  twiceachump

Oh yeah, I’m right there with you.

99problemsbutacheateraint1ofthem
99problemsbutacheateraint1ofthem
6 years ago

“Healthy relationships are based on reciprocity. Don’t do for someone who wouldn’t do for you. And don’t presume reciprocity (oh, of course they would) — watch what they do.”

THIS^

I moved across the country to be closer to my family. The plan was that my narc and I would relocate. I went first, as I got a job first. My ex was meant to follow me. But did he apply for jobs in my city. He applied for one.

What did chump me do? Stay in my new city? Dump my narc when what he said about wanting to move to my city, didn’t match up with his actions?

“Don’t do for someone who wouldn’t do for you.” Gosh, I wish someone had of slapped me across this in the face at the time with a huge, cold, wet fish.

Why would I move back to a city … to be with my narc … when he wouldn’t move to be with me? Ugh, the waste of money, time, not to mention stress of changing jobs interstate within 12 months.

So… chumpy me moved back. Based on narc’s self-pity (he favoured the poor little lost boy approach), love bombing promises of babies, marriage, buying a house together and other narcissistic lures that were like brainwashing to me. I didn’t think critically. I was dumb.

As soon as I moved back, the silent treatment, extreme devaluation and infidelity began.

CHUMP LADY IMMA GIVE YOU A RUN FOR YOUR MONEY HAHA.

I’m glad that experience if behind me, but shit, it was a hard lesson to learn. However, it made me mighty. Never again, motherfuckers.

Jessica
Jessica
6 years ago

I moved to be with him *full knowing* that he would never had done the same for me.
But I didn’t like living in my city, so it didn’t make sense for me to ask him to move.
Besides, he was quick to get a job before me, and im sure he also did it to have a valid reason not to move and ask me to.

He would become extremely defensive and start firing excuses when i mentioned he wouldn’t have done the same for me.
But I always knew it in my heart he wouldn’t. And yet, i guess i projected, thinking he was insecure about leaving his home town, because thats how i felt about leaving.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  Jessica

I’ve seen enough, not just in my life but in the lives of friends, that if I were in my 20s, I would never quit a job for a man. I would never move for a man. I would never give up a cat for a man or a car for a man. I would never disrupt kids’ lives for a man. Not even their father.

That’s not to say the couples in a stable marriage can’t move or go on adventures. But if the relationship isn’t based on reciprocity, giving up a life, a home, a job to move is a bad deal. And it’s a terrible idea to move to save a relationship. A basic bottom line is to make sure you always have the means to take care of yourself.

BrokeChump
BrokeChump
6 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

Yes, so much yes! “Never cross an ocean for someone who won’t jump a puddle for you”.

I learnt this the very hard way when I tried to sustain long distance with a guy based in London (he works in finance and I am a freelancer). Asia to London flights werent cheap and I ruined my finances. Not to mention I felt I was “asking too much” when I would want to have an honest conversation about the future (we’d been together for three years) as I felt the easiest way would be to get married – this would also ease visa pressure. I applied franctically to jobs, took unpaid holidays from work to visit him, tried to spare him the distress of this process as much as possible. … Only to find out (during a very expensive holiday we took) that he had been sexting his ex. He ultimately revealed that ldr was killing him and he felt he was wasting his youth… We are both thirty and those words were like a knife to the heart…

I try to repeat the opening quote but I confess that to date I still feel it was my fault it didn’t work and that I wasn’t good enough for him.

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

Yes, yes, and triple yes. NEVER make yourself financially dependent on another human being unless there is a spelled out contract about (a) the other person adding $$ to your own retirement pool, and (b) long-term financial support (even if, and especially if, the relationship ends).

The only caveat I would make to moving for someone is do it only if it is a move you would make for yourself. I have moved twice for a man; the last one (the move with Hannibal Lecher), I gave up job security and money to do so. While this made me vulnerable, it also allowed my children to have a much less-stressed out mother, and both moves were long-term beneficial for me. Frankly, I count the move to my current location as one of the 4 best things to come out of the marriage (2 of the others are my children).

Doubtless
Doubtless
6 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

This is good advice at any age, LaJ.

Jessica
Jessica
6 years ago
Reply to  LovedaJackass

Yup, learned that the hard way!
I believed in fairy tales and thought a traditional family (with split, as well as shared, responsabilities) was possible. I didn’t know what feminists were complaining about. Now I know.

Dumpthebutthead
Dumpthebutthead
6 years ago

Exactly. I turned down a 30k a year raise and moved cross country to be with my stbx. Bc he “couldn’t live with me and the kids.” Surprisingly (not) 1 week later he starts texting new neighbor and 3 weeks later they have sex. Exactly One week before I move cross country to keep our family together. Then he keeps up the affair while I’m at work, at a job I now hate.

99problemsbutacheateraint1ofthem
99problemsbutacheateraint1ofthem
6 years ago

It’s a hard lesson to learn, but put yourself and your kids FIRST.

Also if you’re the type of person who can get a 30K raise once, you can do it again. Work hard, build networks, and apply again. You can do it!

As @Datdumwuf said, you could network with old colleagues? Even if an opening isn’t there at your old place, they migth know something else?

Jobs are only temporary. A year or two and you could try to move on. Best of luck.

Remember – you got offered a 30K raise once. You can do it again. Know your worth.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
6 years ago

Call your old colleagues, see if there is an opening for you to return, if not, find another job, hating the job is a soul killer. Fight for happiness.

99problemsbutacheateraint1ofthem
99problemsbutacheateraint1ofthem
6 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

Yep, and look at it as a stepping stone. It’s not forever. You’re a smart person. It’s only a matter of time. You’ve got this.

And fuck your cheater off, ain’t nobody got time for that. They make me sick.

twiceachump
twiceachump
6 years ago

Definitely the work I need to do for myself and moving towards ‘meh’. As I do the post mortem on my marriage of almost 20 years, my mind wonders back through my life with cheater and even to the dating time period. I remember cheater telling me about how his best friend was asking him about me, things like what are her hobbies, interests, favorite music, etc… Cheater said his friend made fun of him cause he didn’t know any of those things about me. And cheater is definitely the sad sausage type.

Being chumped now twice by cheater for different schmoopies over the years, I look at people differently. Really differently. I was on vacation with the kids this summer and relaxing in the pool. There was a woman standing by the pool in her bikini talking to a husband and wife in the pool. This mousy voiced woman was ‘chatting it up’ with them. I realized through overhearing the conversation that her husband and kids were back at the room. It sounded like she was stalking the husband. She was a kibble seeking ho. I was flabergasted. I really don’t know that I would have ever seen the red flags before CL & CN.

brit
brit
6 years ago
Reply to  twiceachump

twiceachump, I’ve witnessed women like bikini women talking to X, with me standing next to him. I found it amusing watching these women and their intense interest in talking to X, occasionally glancing over at me with a fake smile. Being a Chump it never occurred to me that their intentions were anything but friendly. If I ever get involved in another relationship I will never be that naive again.
I will no longer tolerate or waste my time with anyone pretentious or fake. I was the Pollyanna of making excuses for questionable behavior and looking for the good in people.

My advice for dating or any relationship is to trust your gut, pay attention to those red flag moments, it’s self preservation. If something they say or do sounds questionable or doesn’t add up or you feel something isn’t quite right, trust your gut.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

This!! Trust your gut. Don’t just override it with “I’m being judgemental.” “I don’t know their circumstances.” “He must be having a bad day.”

If it feels off, it probably is. Err on the side of your gut.

Jessica
Jessica
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

Yes! And when a sentence about them in your head starts with “maybe…”, know you’re spackling.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
6 years ago
Reply to  Jessica

We have a second brain in our guts, look it up, and yeah, trust it 🙂

Unknown
Unknown
6 years ago

The other day at work a client came in and rushing through the room, he flashed us the warmest, softest smile I’d ever seen. It felt so genuine, it went through my body. It made me think that warm, kind people do exist after all. After some internal wrestling, some days later I peeked at him on FB and yeah, he appears to be an overt narc, fame-thirsty and with quite a vulgar streak. Picker, back to fixin’!
Noted: strangers don’t wow strangers when they walk into the room. If you’re dazzled, that’s sparkles.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  Unknown

I think the same thing about “charm.” I can’t be charmed. That’s someone trying to cast a spell on me, to make me disable my own capacity for judgment.

That Is Not A Thing
That Is Not A Thing
6 years ago
Reply to  Unknown

Due to my previous role as a pastor’s wife, and certain work experience, I have learned to enjoy interacting with people whom I don’t know well. “Life Skills for Adult Children” taught me how to make small talk, and I truly want to learn people’s stories. I am tall, and articulate, and light up a room. And then I need to go sleep for a day and a half. Sometimes happy, warm, friendly people are really just happy, warm and friendly. ; )

Unknown
Unknown
6 years ago

I fully agree, but perhaps they light up a room while not leaving a “mark” inside people and if you checked their background you wouldn’t find reasons to stay away. I feel that’s the difference here.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
6 years ago
Reply to  Unknown

Wow, this is going too far friends. A guy gives a warm smile and you look at FB later and decide he must be a narc. That is not normal, more to learn about yourself in order to learn about fixing the picker. Plenty of people are genuinely confident and give a similar vibe to those who seek attention at first glance. The ability to know the difference is often in simply getting to know them. I suspect right now, if you met me you’d write me off as a narc just because (for reasons unknown to me) people tend to like me on first meeting. I almost wrote a joke to end this but it would probably convince you I really am a narc, LOL

Unknown
Unknown
6 years ago
Reply to  Datdamwuf

You’re treating my experience as though you know for a fact I’m wrong in my conclusions.
I don’t assume to know I’m right or wrong, just saying that a guy sparked my interest, I learned more about him (yes, through FB, welcome to modern society), I didn’t like what I saw and ended my crush. You don’t know what I saw, so you can’t know you wouldn’t come to the same conclusions I did, either.

While “Old me” would have been “oh well, but I don’t *know* him, so MAYBE these things I’m seeing that I don’t like don’t mean anything, I should look past them, etc.”
I’m not saying this guy is a cheater, next, I’m saying possibly there’s a reason I felt so “flashed” by him, since it turns out he is flashy. Maybe it’s a coincidence, maybe it’s not. But I’m processing things much differently and cognizantly than I would have and for now that seems like a good thing.

Oh, and I’m sure I come across as a Narc many times. That’s because I have those sparkly qualities myself, I’m efficient in that way when I need to be, and if someone decided to stay away from me because of it, certainly I would not be offended. We must all exercise our best judgement and I let people do that.

Susannah
Susannah
6 years ago
Reply to  Unknown

THIS. Unknown, your comment really hits home for me. I remember one of the first things my new step-mother said to me when I met her: “When my daughters walk into a room, people notice.” She made me feel small. And I’m already small, I’m 4’10”. It was the writing on the wall that I was going to be pushed as far away from my Dad as she could and as far as he would allow. (Follow up: it ended up being pretty far). Now I know the proper response: “Oh. I’m sorry to hear your daughters are narcissists. There’s no cure for that, you know. Such a shame, such a shame.”

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  Susannah

Yeah we def see people differently now. Before these kinds of characteristics would be charming or we’d be envious at how easy people light up a room. But they’re looking for it cause they seek attention. They constantly are needy of it and thrive on it. Confident people aren’t looking for it. They just have it. Cocky ones are the self-centered narcs who will never have enough. Stay away from that.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
6 years ago
Reply to  Unknown

Yes, this, times infinity.

StartofSomethingGood
StartofSomethingGood
6 years ago

Great post! Amazing! And thank you for mentioning the single parents with special needs. This is by far my hardest mind challenge. Not thinking anyone will take me on because my daughter will never achieve independence (unless a miracle, of course). Fixing your picker post divorce has proven to be quite the challenge. This will be an amazing post to refer back to! I million thanks CL!!

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago

Same here. I just decided I plan on moving forward under the assumption that I will stay single. Then if somewhere down the line, I find someone worth letting into my life (and my daughter’s), it will just be a bonus. Making a happy life on my own is my goal. I don’t ever want to “need” a romantic relationship to make me feel whole again.

Jessica
Jessica
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

Ive always strongly believed in wanting, not needing. I remembered explaining the difference to cheater yeasrs ago and he was angrily annoyed that he didn’t understand what I meant (roll eyes). Funny thing that I always knew he scored low on moral development, but I never equated that to cheating. I really bought into the idea of dynamics in a relationship…

NorthChump
NorthChump
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

GetMeFree – love this.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  NorthChump

Yup, now its a Want, not a need. The need is to focus on yourself.

StartofSomethingGood
StartofSomethingGood
6 years ago

I know it’s hard to believe but my therapist mentioned research that was done about the happiest groups of people. The findings were:
1. The most happiest – married men
2. The second happiest – single women
3. The third happiest- single men
4. The least happiest – married women
I thought it was interesting. Just some food for thought.

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago

I believe I read the same about life expectancy decades ago and it didn’t even surprise me back then.

Jo
Jo
6 years ago

I fully believe that married women are in dead last place for happiness. As if I needed more reasons never to remarry. I fear my chumpiness will never fully be cured, and I’ll always have to work hard not to find covert narcs attractive. I know there are happily married women out there somewhere though I do not know any in real life— they all wish they had an equal partner at home.

Chickynot
Chickynot
6 years ago

I remember reading something similar, only it said the second happiest were DIVORCED women. Analysis was the married men were receiving emotional support, and the divorced women were so damn glad to be free of being expected to provide it (unreciprocated).

twiceachump
twiceachump
6 years ago

Ex MIL did trips with other widowed women in her church and the priest. She was telling me a few years ago how the priest had noted when a wife died, the husband was married again within a year. When the husband died, the wife was fighting off the widowers with a stick and going on road trips—happy as could be!

Lyndaloo
Lyndaloo
6 years ago
Reply to  twiceachump

Men appear to have a tough time being on they’re own hence the need for Schmoopies waiting in the wings. I went to the funeral of a friend’s mother recently. The husband and family were in a receiving line at the church after giving my condolences to my friend and her siblings I extended my hand to friend’s father he said in a loud voice ‘hi sexy’. I was dumbfounded! I quickly walked away sat down for the service. I thought he must be drunk or on something! Well not 3 weeks later he was with his new girlfriend. This couple were married for 50 odd years, he was the minister at the church. My friend has confided all sorts of horror stories about her father who has since passed away. One less creep in the world!

Soldiering On
Soldiering On
6 years ago
Reply to  Lyndaloo

When my mother was widowed she chose not to seek another spouse because she didn’t want to be a nursemaid. She was quite content with her garden, books, and her cat.

Born Free
Born Free
6 years ago
Reply to  Soldiering On

No nurse with a purse for your mom!

champchump
champchump
6 years ago
Reply to  Lyndaloo

I think men have a hard time being alone in general, not just cheaters and narcissists. I’ve observed this for a long time. Even here in Chump Nation it seems most of the male chumps have found someone new, while the women chumps aren’t looking very hard and sometimes actually prefer to be single.

I brought this up with my therapist once, and he said generally men don’t get the bonding and intimacy in their friendships with men that women get in their friendships with women. But men still have a need for bonding human connections, and often the only source for that is through a romantic partnership. Thus, men seek to be partnered more than women do, especially later in life after the childbearing years are over.

This is definitely true for me. I have lots of female friends, and several very close relationships with women, including my sister and my daughter. And despite opportunities in the “partner” arena since my marriage ended, I haven’t been at all tempted to embark upon another romantic relationship.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
6 years ago
Reply to  champchump

I think it has a lot to do with our culture, men are raised with being taken care of, while women are raised to be the caretakers. That is slowly changing but it’s far from equal. Boys are not taught to take care of others the way girls are as children, not just teaching but experiencing it, seeing how their parents interact.

Natalia.B
Natalia.B
6 years ago

Thought of ever being vulnerable and giving my heart to anyone ever again, utterly terrifies me. I’d rather be lonely.

Guy came to house recently to clean my carpets and upholstery. I had the full on blitz of gushing compliments. What beautiful skin, bone structure….I don’t want this job to finish today as it means I won’t see you again. Blah, blah, blah. I couldn’t wait for him to go so when he asked me out for lunch despite my pretending I had a very jealous partner who wouldn’t take kindly to his offer, his response was,….”Oh, he doesn’t have to know. It can be our little secret.”

Are there any honest men left in this world? Plus how insulting to me to assume I’m a liar and cheat too. No, like Janet and her chocolate flavoured red wine and lovely parrot, I’ll stick with my dogs and a tub of ice cream for now.

Janet
Janet
6 years ago
Reply to  Natalia.B

Omg yes!! Wine and parrots, chocolate and ice cream.

*high-fives new friend*

Susannah
Susannah
6 years ago
Reply to  Natalia.B

Can you report that guy to his company? That was classic sexual harassment, completely inappropriate behavior. I’m sorry and angry you were verbally manhandled in your own home.

Natalia.B
Natalia.B
6 years ago
Reply to  Susannah

Thank you Susannah. I did think about reporting him but to be honest I was worried it would give him an excuse to come back. When someone has your home address you feel a little vulnerable don’t you? Was just so relieved to be rid of him. I noticed that my dogs seemed extra clingy and protective too. Maybe they didn’t like his vibe either.

FindingBliss
FindingBliss
6 years ago
Reply to  Natalia.B

Wow, Natalia, that guy was a real aggressive creep. I’m sorry he can’t be reported and lose his job, but you have every right to keep yourself safe. Since a similar thing happened separately to me and my sister following our divorces from cheaters, I think I’m going to file this under “typical creep scenarios that you should watch for” shortly after divorcing a cheater. Perhaps these people who lack empathy actually instead have a sort of radar that detects pain levels. They then assume that heightened pain equals easy pickings. Looking back, I see now that these guys move insanely quickly, lack professional boundaries, love bomb with words, and expect instant payoff with a date or sex. Note to self: one more area to rehearse a strong boundary. Stay strong and know your worth.

love and chumpiness
love and chumpiness
6 years ago
Reply to  FindingBliss

I’m noticing that I’m attracting a whole lot of unwanted attention, do we send out chumped pheromones or something? Him knowing the address is creepy.

kiwichump
kiwichump
6 years ago

I think this is something to watch out for too, love and chumpiness. I think we probably send wounded prey vibes and they draw vultures.

Natalia.B
Natalia.B
6 years ago
Reply to  FindingBliss

Yes, good idea Finding Bliss think I’ll note that too. I haven’t even started my divorce from cheater yet but totally separated and never taken him back, at least not physically. Emotionally is another story but getting there. This is NC day 22. Yay!

So sorry to hear something similar happened to you and your sister. Maybe these types from creepsville do have a radar, but if they read it right they’d see our experiences make us more wary than most.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  Natalia.B

Have a friend,female or male, come over for coffee next time you have a handyman come do work inside your house. They are either checking you out (is she single ?) or the contents of your house. It’s totally inappropriate to hit on a client after they’ve been in your personal space.

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago

Fixing my picker … setting boundaries. At 43 years of age, this is a startling new concept for me. For over four decades, I had no idea this was necessary!

But, thanks to the massive realization that not all people care to be decent (and the cognitive dissonance that came with that), I’m improving at a very fast pace!

Funny enough, my first step has been simply applying my new-found boundaries to the people who’ve purposefully used, hurt, abused me in my past. I have ditched the majority of my birth family (with good reason); I’ve also ditched a number of “friends.”

All of these people showed me who they were and I refused to believe them at the time. Now, I believe a person — and I act on that knowledge. To people who know me, I probably look like I’ve lost my mind. What they need to understand is that I finally found it. 😉

Baffled
Baffled
6 years ago
Reply to  JesssMom

JesssMom, I’m getting there, too. I have set up firm boundaries with my family of origin and stay far away from them with good reason! They want me to keep playing the scapegoat in our family dynamics and I refuse.

I’m having a bit more touble setting healthy boundaries romantically. I struggled trough 13 years of an abusive marriage (one of my ex’s favourite things to do was to refuse any and all physical and emotional intimacy – I was very unwillingly celibate in that marriage, yet completely faithful to him. He is also a closet alcoholic – he kept it hidden until after we were married and yes, in hindsight, there were red flags I missed). A while after I ended our marriage legally and moved out (there is a one-year waiting period where I live!), I met a fellow chump. After knowing him for a couple of years, here’s what I see: his boundaries with his abusive ex are very loose, to the point where she is still manipulating and intimidating him and he won’t take any steps to protect himself and his two small children. She was and still is physically abusive to the men in her life. I really like this guy, and thoroughly enjoy his company, but he is still on the mend. I’m afraid to dump him, because it’s the first healthy, nonabusive, reciprocal sex I’ve had since the 1990s. (The few times my ex could bring himself to touch me – I can count the number of times we were naked togeher in our entire marriage using my fingers – he abused and demeaned me. I refuse to call it sex. It was some other horrible thing.) Mr. Fellow Chump has some other red flags (towering rage misdirected at me instead of his ex, self-harm). I’m working on gathering courage to shut it down. We go to the same church, and so see each other every week. This is going to be horribly difficult. I don’t want to stop seeing him, but I know I have to. I don’t want to hurt him, but I don’t want to keep hurting myself by waiting for him to set up proper boundaries with his extraordinarily abusive and manipulative ex. Sorry about the long rambling story! Thanks for reading! I have been reading CL every day for years, and I will keep coming back every day. It’s better than all the therapy I’ve had.

Jojobee
Jojobee
6 years ago
Reply to  Baffled

If he rages at you instead of his ex who is the problem, he is ABUSING you. Believe what he is showing you. He will be willing to misdirect all anger at you. Get out.

Baffled
Baffled
6 years ago
Reply to  Jojobee

Thank you for your insight, Jojobee, and thank you for taking the time and energy to reply. CN is a lifeline.

My gut is yelling at me to get out. I just need to muster the courage to do what my gut is telling me! Also, I keep falling into the mental trap of trying to end things with the least possible amount of hurt for him – but then I catch myself amd remember that I can only control MY acctions and responses, not his.

Baffled
Baffled
6 years ago
Reply to  Baffled

Gah! Actions, not “acctions”!

Doubtless
Doubtless
6 years ago
Reply to  Baffled

Baffled, I am sorry to hear you found such an assholish guy.

I am a dude, and this is how I recommend you dump him. Meet in a coffee shop with an outdoor area. In public for safety, but no meal to linger over. Be as clear as possible. “I don’t love you any more. I don’t see any future at all with us. We will not be friends ever.” (And if he whines like a little bitch: “if you ever call me or show up uninvited again I will call the cops.”) (And then put it in writing in an email.) You may well want to be friends with him at some point, but if you wimp out and even hint at that you are only making it more difficult for him and yourself.

Don’t muck about with his heart or yours. Rip that fucking bandage off quickly. He won’t like it either way because you are giving him sex, but the colder and more definite the ending the more humane it will be for him.

Best of luck, Baffled.

Lyndaloo
Lyndaloo
6 years ago
Reply to  JesssMom

Good for you JessMom! I have followed your posts and you are truly mighty! We all need to remember what good and special and smart people we are! I’ve been practicing self affirmations myself lately and it helps. I doubt that I would ever bother to try to find another partner at my age; but, I’m comfortable with that thought. I have a good life now and just need to get on with the business of living it.
Cheers to all us mighty chumps!

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  Lyndaloo

Thanks, Lyndaloo. 🙂

I am with you on not bothering to find another partner. I have a full life — and so much to work through in myself still. It’s not on my radar and I’m good with that.

You said: “I have a good life now and just need to get on with the business of living it.” — this is beautiful — and true for me as well.

(((Hugs)))

brit
brit
6 years ago

JessMom, I’ve also rid myself of family members for good reason. Over the years I made excuses for their lack of respect, and treating me as if I was something they needed to scrape off the bottom of their shoe.
I realized after finding CN that I was pick me dancing, wanting them to like me. I’ve put away my dancing shoes.
Same with “friendships,” and neighbors who I thought were my friends. I was afraid of hurting their feelings but not anymore. My feelings are a priority now. They’re not my tribe and I’m not going to waste any more of my time with them.
No one has my permission to treat me with disrespect.

NeverAgain
NeverAgain
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Yes, same here.

I’ve let go of three “friendships”, two of which were based on their attempts to manipulate me; and another which seems to be a fine mix of envy and contempt.

Away with them!

All my other friendships are absolutely fine.

And yes, I too am committed to being merrily single, but only getting coupled up again *if* the guy is of good character.

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Good for you, brit!!! That is mighty — and so awesome.

On the “pick me dancing” … yes, that is exactly it. It’s so hard (especially with family) to accept that we don’t mean jack-shit to them, which is why (IMHO) we danced and danced.

But, goodness, yanking off those dance shoes and hurling them into the dumpster is so liberating!

nomar
nomar
6 years ago

One note on the “trust your gut” idea: if you grew up in the orbit of a narcissistic parent, having a narcissistic partner can feel very familiar and comfortable. The lack of reciprocity, the focus on their needs and the shrinking of your own. Also, to be frank, the ambient resentment and sense of moral smugness that can be very addictive.

In contrast, I found that dating and marrying another “giver” can be uncomfortable. There is a constant challenge to be my best self and live up to my wife’s love. But you shouldn’t mistake the occasional discomfort of that challenge—which can be a powerful force for good in a person’s life—with a bad relationship.

Doubtless
Doubtless
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

Dang, nomar, she sounds like a keeper.

Unknown
Unknown
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

It’s true, that’s the one thing I need to retrack my instincts on.
I am instinctively attracted to narcs and sociopaths. Possibly, that’s how I grew to ovverride my instincts altogether, because in a way I couldn’t actually trust them.

NoMoreNarcs
NoMoreNarcs
6 years ago
Reply to  nomar

This is so true.

Early Childhood Picker Training

As mighty as I was learning to become in my current relationships (kudos to CN), it wasn’t until I untangled that skein within myself that I could really start to heal, retrain, and avoid that trap.

I’ll never get it totally right – but will gladly accept that limitation to ‘mainstream’ my life with the nonnarcs.

So that’s my advice to Chumps (especially those with a narc parent): untangle your own skein, extract it – for it is a foreign body (like malaria), and forgive yourself.

And keep coming back. Chump Lady is my quinine.

validated
validated
6 years ago

This is an excellent list CL! Thank you. I applied the boundaries and behaviors to watch out (that I learned from CL) for to my friendships, relatives and business relationships first, then to the few people I’ve dated since divorce 4 years ago. Through self reflection on my dead marriage and experience afterward, I found my major hooks of pity and sparkles. Any of those hook attempts come from someone I don’t already have a reciprocal relationship with, I just minimize my responses and pull away.

I will always be attracted to sparkly people with passion for the things they do, who tell a good story and stir my hope. But I don’t “serve” them in an effort to earn a relationship anymore.

I like how someone phrased it, I’ve developed an “allergy” to the narc behaviors, my gut reacts. It’s up to me to listen and respond to my gut.

Sunflower36
Sunflower36
6 years ago

I’ve got a man who I’ve been seeing for almost a year who I just need to be done with. I need to end the relationship but I can’t bring myself to do it!! I realized the only way I’ve broken off a relationship is with conflict. I don’t know how to say, “ this isn’t working for me.” I’m afraid of the fallout. I’m afraid of actually being truly single and alone.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
6 years ago
Reply to  Sunflower36

Well, I am about to write a post below about how learning to be alone is the first step to fixing your picker.

brandib
brandib
6 years ago
Reply to  Sunflower36

Sunflower36…I have been in an on/off relationship with a fellow chump going on a year now, too. He has baggage from his divorce 10 years ago. I HAD baggage & from my divorce a year ago (yeah, we started seeing one another 2 weeks after mine was final) but through therapy & coming to CN, I am dealing with mine & am ready to move forward. Sometimes I think he uses his “chumpdom” as an excuse not to get closer. I hope no one takes offense to that statement. This is just my opinion of my current relationship.

I get it…as chumps we get hurt, our children get hurt, our lives implode & we don’t want to repeat the process. FOR ME, though, it’s not that I’m afraid of being alone, I just don’t want to be. Yes, I know I need to keep my picker on point & to be cautious to protect myself & my heart, but I have a lot of love left in me to give to the right man. And, I refuse to be a prisoner of the past treatment & abuse of my XH to the point that I end up being alone for the rest of my life. I feel that he wins if I allow that to happen. This is just where I am in moving forward.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  brandib

Sunflower and others, clearly if we want to date, there are guys out there. Some may not be the right ones. But how will we know if we don’t try? And you tried and if he’s not the one, move on. Spare him as well, esp if he’s falling deeper and deeper. In the long run its better for both of you to end it now.

marriagedetective
marriagedetective
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

Yes, I’m with IAP. Put on your empathy boots and think of how they would feel with the wasted time when you know they aren’t the ones. I think it is hard to hurt someone else’s feelings – I know I have that problem too – but do it. Free yourself up for someone who you can be in a long term relationship with. Don’t beat yourself up that you are with someone with whom you can’t or don’t want to make it work.

Doubtless
Doubtless
6 years ago

All of y’all should break up immediately. Imagine if you knew the person you were seeing was on a website writing the same things about you that you are about them.

Chumps deserve to be happy.

DTMFA

Sunflower36
Sunflower36
6 years ago
Reply to  Doubtless

I did on Friday night.

It was not pretty. He changed from channel of self pity to rage before I cut him off and blocked his phone number and on Facebook.

I wanted to tell him I wanted to date again (I’d actually signed up on a dating site, knowing he was checking up on me all the time.) and I was preparing to tell him that when he kept telling me I wouldn’t let go of my ex. He thinks I’m waiting to be his Plan B.

I didn’t end it well, I totally came off looking like a cheater, but I really don’t care anymore. I’m not interested in dating, but really had no problem with him believing I did. He can think what he wants, I just have to be done.

Sunflower36
Sunflower36
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

Oh, he’s not falling deeper and deeper. He’s got narc qualities that just do not work for me. Sigh. I know I need to break it off, and that I will feel lighter once I do. I also know he will accuse me of cheating…I’m not. He’s accused me before. I don’t know why I’m still in this.

Jo
Jo
6 years ago
Reply to  Sunflower36

My therapist gave me this idea for how to dump a narc safely— start acting so needy that the narc eventually dumps you. Ask to borrow money, his stuff, interrupt him when he’s talking and start talking about stuff that interests you. Be demanding. This is almost impossible for a real codependent chump to do, but it’s narc repellent once the narc decides you are not of use. And as a corollary, Ghosting was practically invented for escaping narcs. You can just ghost and start seeing other people without needing to have a sit down conversation with the narc, just move on with your life.

Jessica
Jessica
6 years ago
Reply to  Jo

Demands work great to repel any narc!
They can be reasonable ones, it’s you having a voice that pisses them off.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  Jo

I’ve never ghosted a person before but I did when he got hold of my credit card number and used it. I received a call from my bank,went through the purchases,looked at a map and realized the points of purchase were on the way to the hydroponic grow house Mr. Narcengineer was constructing with his son. I don’t smoke pot-give me a glass of something sparkling-champagne, cava, sekt, prosecco

Done and done-swimming against the tide of being raised to be polite and proper…and a chump !

Chumptopia
Chumptopia
6 years ago
Reply to  Jo

I’ve never been good about ending things without conflict either. I’ve been in one serious relationship since my divorce (which was a long time ago) and I knew things weren’t right as he was pushing me to marry him. Lots of red flags. He was super sparkly, all past relationships of his were the women’s fault when they ended, financially unstable although he earned six figures, fucked up adult kids. I also found a receipt of his where he bought drinks for someone in a bar while we were living together… he never mentioned to me that he met anyone. He was super secretive about his money and where it all went and what he had done with it.

I tried several times to get him to talk to me about what was going on and to talk about money before we got married. No deal. That was not going to happen.

So I dared ‘to create a crisis’ and blew it up. Not very grown up and that’s on me but I did dodge a bullet and I feel nothing but relief.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  Jo

This sounds great. I just wouldn’t have it in me to be that sort of person. It takes a special kind of asshole to be this way, and we all know atleast one 🙂

Chickynot
Chickynot
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

Plus there is the very real possibility of this backfiring — often if a narc senses a fellow narc, that is attractive to them as a challenge.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago