Meaningless Flings and the Myth of the Good Cheater
Decided to rerun this one today. You Bitter People can obsess over that “meaningless fling” that doesn’t define your cheater. Feel free to comment!
So as of yesterday Esther Perel now follows me on Twitter. Which is big of her considering I told her to bite me.
On the other hand, there might be something in it for her as she’s writing a book on infidelity, according to the New York Times, and is only taking on new clients “who have experienced infidelity.” Perhaps she’s studying the chump perspective. You bitter, angry, sarcastic people.
I got on her radar because I cheekily sent her yesterday’s column debunking her infidelity essay. She responded by Twitter:
“my heart goes out to you – my article does not directly apply to your situation, as your experience goes way beyond infidelity.”
At first I thought she was being nice and I felt bad for telling her to bite me. (Hey, I’m a chump. Feeling bad is my default setting.) Her heart goes out to me!
But then I thought about it some more and decided this reply was actually quite condescending (because you know, I’m bitter that way). Pat, pat, pat. You poor dear. Still stuck in anger, refusing to move on, riling up cheater hate here on Chump Lady, drawing snarky cartoons, telling people to leave people whose only crime was self actualization. And I kinda got pissed off all over again.
My experience goes “way beyond infidelity.”
Huh.
I’ve gotten this take on my writing before. It goes something like this — Oh, you’re not qualified to draw conclusions about infidelity because you had one of those BAD cheaters. He was a serial cheater, and moreover, unlike my cheater who was sad and lost and misunderstood, your cheater was drunk and angry and mean. My cheater just Made a Terrible Mistake. Your cheater threatened to burn down your house and piss on his ex-wife’s baby’s grave if you told anyone. Your experience goes way beyond infidelity. That wasn’t my experience.
Early on, I tried to take this issue on with the post “A Spectrum of Cheaters.” While there are certainly differences between cheaters, the long-term affairs vs. the short-term affairs, the emotional affair vs. the physical affair, the “sex addicts” and the folks who hold hands and recite Bible verses in hotel rooms. The cheaters who go to prostitutes (and therein we have more distinctions — massage parlors, Thai vacations, Russian hookers…) and the cheaters who find it at home. The cheaters who hook up on Ashley Madison and the like, or those who find old flames on Facebook. The cheaters who fuck a co-worker and those who fuck your siblings.
Sure, there is variation. Sure, there are degrees of cheating. (In fact I’ve gotten in trouble on my own blog by not weighing emotional affairs as heavily as physical affairs, just because I don’t think they endanger chumps to the same degree, i.e., pregnancy, STDs, etc.) But the longer I read and write about infidelity, the more I am struck by how alike cheaters are. How they manipulate with the same narcissistic panache. How they make the same sorry excuses for their behavior. And how — unless you’re dealing with a stone cold sociopath — they all want you to believe that They Never Intended to Hurt You.
Adultery becomes a moral failing as we move to a description of character flaws: liar, cheater, philanderer, womanizer, slut. In this view, understanding an act of infidelity as a simple transgression or meaningless fling, or a quest for aliveness is an impossibility.
So I put it out to you chumps — did any of you, please raise your hand, have a cheater who committed a “simple transgression” or a “meaningless fling”?
Esther — cheaters who want cake (the affair AND the marriage) all want chumps to believe their infidelity was “meaningless.” I never intended to hurt you. It didn’t mean anything.
But here’s the thing — it means everything to the person whose world wasn’t considered. You threw away our commitment for something that didn’t MEAN anything to you? It’s almost worse really. Falling in love with your soul mate schmoopie, while horrifying, is at least understandable at some level. (Okay, not really. I also debunk the whole We Were Compelled By Forces Greater Than Ourselves.) Anyway, it’s a neater rationalization than — I did something that didn’t mean jack shit to me, that clearly seems to devastate you, for an orgasm.
We’re not stupid for wanting our feelings to be considered, for relying on commitment, for believing in monogamy — IT WAS PROMISED TO US. And we abided by that set of rules — and moreover, we didn’t see it as a “set of rules” to break and “exuberantly defy.” We loved with our whole hearts and got played.
Oh, but my experience “goes beyond infidelity.” How exactly? I welcome you on to this blog, Esther, the largest assembly of chumps you’re going to find, and let you explain exactly what you meant by that infidelity article that sure as hell seems to excuse extramarital affairs as exercises in self actualization.
Self actualization sounds so much nicer than “Fucks in a Harrisburg hotel at lunch” or “let me stay home with the children while he screws around on business trips” or “slept with other men while I was deployed.”
Because those are the stories I read here EVERY DAY. Do their experiences go “beyond infidelity”?
Really, Esther, I’m a lightweight in the chump department. You ought to meet my husband — 22 years to a serial cheater. She slept with her boss, his best friend, and assorted others. And when he found out, he divorced her. (Or in your parlance, he indulged in the “dissolution of the family structure.”)
Okay, she never threatened to burn down his house. She wasn’t one of those cheaters. She just wasted 22 years of his life.
Please show me the Good Sort of Cheater who has a meaningless fling. Even a one-night stand involves a series of decisions and a cluster of lies to cover it up. How does a person happen to encounter a meaningless fling? Do you advertise for one on a dating site? Does it sidle up to you in a bar? Offer itself at work? Boundaries are crossed, conspiracies are made, rationalizations created.
All apparently “meaningless.”
Bitter – check!
Angry – check!
Sarcastic – CHECK!
Ester, you can bite me, too!!
It only qualifies as infidelity if the betrayed expected truth and honoring of agreements from the liar (root of fidelity is “faith”/”trust”). Therefore infidelity, by definition, includes deliberate harm. It is 100% ludicrous to suggest that the betrayed should allow him/herself to be abused so the dysfunctional can feel good. Turns out, that’s rapey. Add the disease exposure factor to the person who doesn’t get to make an informed choice and it starts looking like grounds for attempted murder or at least assault.
If she means to suggest that some people need polyamory to be happy, her argument can at least sit on the table, and I might even agree that she’s right. However, she should be using the right word for the job AND she should counsel people to avoid harming others in pursuit of multiple lovers. She is professionally irresponsible and I am very sad that Terry Real is in her camp. I used to respect him, but not anymore.
This is just not that hard to understand, honestly. She’s just creating clickbait to sell shit.
My husband and our counselor agreed that monogamy was not his true nature and polyamory was?Does that then excuse all his affairs?Old girlfriends, employees, actresses, call girls, one born again Christian(that one confused me)waitresses bartenders realestate agents,the odd writer, his partnerstrippers?I haven’t been able to wrap my head around this it’s natural for me thing, I’m polyamourous so don’t be hurt. Can anyone help?
Complete BS regina9! Polyamory my foot! I would love to be polyamory especially since my ex chose to sleep with literally everyone but me during our marriage… I would have loved to sleep with my handsome colleague who was single and was coming unto me, with strangers etc but instead I chose integrity, I chose to honor the vows I made before God, I chose to love my husband… Polyamory tendencies in my books is no excuse to cheat!
I do appreciate that Esther says the problem is with the cheating individual and not the spouse. Nothing gets me more riled up than the notion that the betrayed must have been lacking in some way to cause them to stray. That thought is so ingrained in our culture and I hope it changes. I think by the time a person has crossed the line and become involved in any type of affair, their whole character is infected and only the most enlightened can put in the self work to really remove that infection and sadly I’ve met very few of those types.
It’s too bad they weren’t enlightened in 7th grade when the discussion about STD’S was taught. Can you get infected by a cheater, yes.
It requires a great deal of PLANNING and LYING to cheat. Are you thinking it’s an epidemic? I’m washing my hands.
Me, too!!
Homicidal–check!
Raising my hand
Yeah, it was a meaningless fling for him, because everything is meaningless for him.
No, it wasn’t ever about that girl, because everything is always about him.
Sure, it was a quest for aliveness, because he’s dead inside.
I’m not bitter, actually, I’m quite agreeable
Everything you said arlo…”everything is meaningless for him”…check
“because everything is always about him”…check, check….
“sure it was a quest for aliveness, because he’s dead inside”…and CHECK!!
Very well said, describes my X-hole perfectly.
Arlo right on, it’s my situation exactly, and I read and re-read to help me through this process here at Chump Lady. Mind blowing to be sure. What a chump I have been. And yes, he is dead inside. Divorcing him, slower process than I would like, and I can’t get him to move out, he still thinks we can get back together, and that will NEVER happen. June 25 D-Day….and so many $$$$$ later and not yet resolved. Soon I hope, big meeting next week.
Dead inside and he hates himself. So true.
“You think I’m HAPPY??!!” Ummmmm….”well I would HOPE so since I was the source of unhappiness…you mean you SHIT all over our lives and destroyed everything because you wanted to be happy and you’re still NOT happy??? What.the.fuck?!”
Stupid f’ing Idiot!
I feel your anger. My stbx is visibly falling apart. People have asked me if he’s on drugs (I don’t think so); told me that he has aged significantly. These lying cheaters are never happy. I’ve always said “he loved me as much as he can love anybody” which is not much. He was so fortunate to have all that he/we had. He shit on us… on everything. Stupid f’ing idiot is right!
Argh! Must be in the cheater handbook. I got the “but I loved you more than anyone.” Oh, gee, thanks for that back-handed non-compliment.
I got that too ! Mine even said I could ask the ow how much he loved me! She was jealous of our love ! OMG!!!
He told me the reason they were drawn to each other and connected was because “we didn’t feel LOVED”. If he didn’t feel LOVED by us then he never will. Real love is deep it isn’t EXCITING and new every day….it’s better. It’s the good stuff after the sparkles wear off. Jackass. Loved him more than I loved myself.
Everyone also says X-hole looks terrible, I can’t even stand to look him in the face, when we meet to pick up/drop off our son I refuse to look him in the face, I kiss my son tell him I love him…eyes on my son and I put him in the truck, buckle him in and walk away.
All true. Honestly brit when mine started “training” again (instead of drinking himself into a stupor, which was what he did for most of the first 4 years) he was still NEVER satisfied. They NEVER are. Bottomless pits of actual constant need of adoration. It’s TIRESOME. It’s hard to deal with a 47 year old damaged child that needs constant praise, they’re doing ONE thing so right because it benefits them while they shit all over everything else…and how DARE you bring any of that up.
He felt that he deserved to piss away a huge chunk of money on himself because he “worked” so hard. Well, if you wanted to be a selfish prick you should have thought about that before choosing a partner, promising to be faithful and starting a family…..not once….but twice.
When you make the decision to make and have babies you don’t get to think of your own needs first. You shouldn’t have to be TOLD at that age that it’s “irresponsible” to spend money on bodybuilding, supplements and gym equipment when the bills aren’t paid.
I ALWAYS told him how great he looked, how attracted I was to him. It didn’t matter because I didn’t matter. I wasn’t a good enough cheerleader, I could not ignore the irresponsibility and selfishness anymore. Physically he is AMAZING, he has an incredible physique, handsome, beautiful blue eyes…. I used to love to look at him. Now….the sight of him just bothers me.
I don’t even care as much about his betrayal of me and being tossed like yesterday’s trash as I do about him abandoning our son almost completely. He just turned 8. For that I will never forgive him.
I always heard that cryin ass “you don’t appreciate how hard I work, you don’t appreciate how hard I train”. “Yeah, I can see how hard you work at everything else….who and what you are willing to neglect and sacrifice for what benefits only you.”
Good riddance asshole.
Marriage is a commitment, it doesn’t take a genius to know everyday life isn’t always sparkly.
Boredom isn’t an excuse to break hearts, destroy lives,and families, create havoc, rob children of growing up in a stable family with a mom and dad who love each other, it’s shit and no one benefits from the mess created.
Cheating is the ultimate betrayal, callous disregard for anyone else and no thought to the agony, and heart ache the people who love them the most will suffer.. No thought for anyone other than themselves. Selfish and sick
When I married my X, it was for a lifetime we made a commitment.
Disagreements are inevitable between people who lie together, no two people agree on everything. We learn to compromise and try to see things form the other persons perspective and meet in the middle or choose your battles. Whatever, what it isn’t is fucking someone else, seeking revenge, holding grudges, or seeing what you can get away with hurting your partner behind their back and feeling good about it.
It’s all bullshit excuses, X told me “he wasn’t feeling the love” in our relationship..,
along with, I didn’t appreciate all the hard work and time he puts in at the gym.
He felt unappreciated, why didn’t I notice his muscles and how good he looked. Huh??
Well, he said, I never hear you complement my muscles.
Me, being the dancer that I am, made a point of paying him complements after his workouts and told him he looked good.
No, not good enough, after paying him the complement he asked for,
he was annoyed, “you’re not sincere.”
I tried to convince him that I was sincere, blah, blah,
Cheaters are imposters, even to themselves.
I got the same thing. And I agree with you 100%. Plus, if you can’t love yourself, how can you expect anyone else to?
Well said
Yes, our experience goes way beyond infidelity, we are deep like that fortunately.
Exactly Donna! Nailed it.
After all cheaters take, “brave enormous risks for that glimmer of passion”. Hey, I used to eat three boxes of cracker jacks to get the right prize. I think i was 6, yet I was already into self-actualization.
We do kinda “judge by the strictest standards”, Esther, I think those were called marriage vows.
A cheater is just a person who is learning who they really are and experiencing their “true self?” So then the cheater was tired of the lies they told to themselves but kept perpetuating the lies to everyone else (misery does love company)? That means the cheater wanted to live two lives until he or she could…no wait, the cheater could have it all and keep everyone happy! Cheaters aren’t bad people, they just want everyone to be happy! Why can’t we just appreciate them for the people pleasers they are? Esther wants to sell books and re-educate people to re-brand cheaters as “happiness brokers!” “Don’t be bitter, angry or sarcastic (i.e. deny what you’re feeling. I’ll tell you what you should feel: appreciative, happy, and thankful!”
Does each of her books come with a set of blinders?
Esther doesn’t have a real psych degree, and I’m sure she never read Abraham Maslow (and he is TURNING over in his grave at her use of self-actualization).
I don’t have a psych degree either, but I have education degrees and lots of study in child and human development and I always thought self-actualization as a person who knows who they are and accept/love who they are so deeply that they don’t care what others think and could never hurt anyone because they have no need for that exercise of power. The most self actualized person I know is my 15 year old son and I am in awe of him.
Tempest- what is your definition?
Maslow considered it the pinnacle of moral, ethical, and personal achievement, and that very very few people achieve it (think Gandhi).cheaters by definition can’t have it because of deception and hurting others. The term has been wrongly used by many to mean extreme self-happiness. (sorry for late response–traveling today).
I have been noodling on this one for a bit, would love CN’s take:
Healthy/chumpy spousal self-actualization would mean that doing the right thing (abiding by our promise to cherish and love our spouse for better or for worse) is the most intinsically rewarding course of action. So what makes us chump happy and give us a sense of purpose is to behave with respect and integrity for others.
On the other hand, cheaters (especially those with Cluster B co-morbidity) and other deceivers that have not cheated (yet) view self-actualization quite differently. I suspect that early on, many cheaters have felt inadequate and hollow, and have found that appearing normal to others involved pretending to be normal. Over time, getting away with the deception became the most rewarding thing to them, it helped them feel normal, and it also helped hide the hollow person they really feel like. They keep growing up like this, fronting their way through life, getting away by deceiving people around them as they key defense mechanism for feeling so inadequate. Essentially, doing the right thing is not rewarding to them. Deceiving is more rewarding as people reward them for fronting, and they feel so much smarter than people around them. They grow up learning that there is nothing as rewarding to them as getting away with deceiving people around them (the sweetest ego kibbles come from deception). When they are grown adult, they figure out that the closest the person is to the cheater, the sweeter the deception kibble.
Kibbles of deception are delicious, but they don’t come any sweeter than cheating on your chump, because they feel they get double kibbles (mental and physical), and the intensity of the ego boost from the excitement of hiding and getting attention from two lovers is intoxicating. Of course they won’t tell the chump, of course they will hide, both increase the intensity and the number of kibbles. By just being there, the chump unknowingly rewards their cheating behavior.
Of course when they are found out, they will use all the deception tricks they know to try and keep the kibbles and deception going. That is what they know, that is why it is a character flaw. Their mental model of self-actualization is based on deception.
This is why CL and CN are so spot on, the mental make up needed to become a cheater does not start with being “unhappy in marriage.” This is why, as Tempest and many others have mentioned in previous posts, the chances for change in a cheating Cluster B are virtually nil.
I would stay as far away as possible from deceivers and cheater as they believe that self-actualization is centered around becoming even better at deceiving others in the name of “finding themselves.” And yep, they can have Esther Perel and all her word salads.
Yea Chumptitude! Very well stated and insightful.
Wow, amazing, Chumpitude. This theory explains all the data!
Really insightful and so very true Chumptitude. Great explanation and understanding of the disordered.
Thank you ChumpB, knowledge is power, it does not lessen any of the emotional and financial pain of the devalue/discard stages, but I hope my theoretical ramblings can help you as they help me distance myself from my STBX.
Chumpitude, thanks for the insight!
By just being there, the chump unknowingly rewards their cheating behavior.
That’d be me. Yep, 27 yrs married to the disordered man that I am ever so grateful to be away from.
Thank you Mehbound! You are mighty, 27 years with a disordered man is a testament to your resilience and strength, keep forging on to Meh!
Excellent, Chumptitude. Great explanation & application to chumps vs. cheaters.
Thanks Tempest, can’t wait to discuss this with you more very soon :)!
Wow Chumptitude, that is an incredibly insightful definition and so perfectly describes my ex (who I knew since we were sophomores in high school through 25 years of marriage until D-Day). It is EXACTLY him.
Thank you Kelly, so sorry we share similar wounds from our time with cheaters. I met mine after college and until DDay always thought he was a bit preoccupied with image management.
I asked for a divorce 10 days post-DDay because I could sense that all he would do was try and lie and hide his way out of this. Like most chumps, I started revisiting our life together, wondering what was true and what was an act. It was never about me, I was a convenient front, a boost to his reputation. It is so reassuring to remember how many friends told him over the years how lucky he was to have married me, that I was a great catch, and I thought the look in his eyes was love. It was pure pride of his appliance wife instead.
We grow, they won’t, realizing that I was connect is tough, but that is the price of my freedom. Onto Meh :)!
I have a new chump nation phrase/concept, “deception kibbles”
Self actualization is at the top of maslow’s pyramid.
Security/need for safety is at the bottom meaning it’s a basic need that needs to be met before the higher ones ever can. You can’t skip them.
Therefore, cheaters & others who engage purposely & consciously in risky behavior whereby they threaten their own security/safety needs are no where NEAR the top of maslow’s hierarchy. They are in a very real sense, similiar to entitled as toddlers as far as how their levels of emotional intelligence function.
Exactly. True self-actualization cannot come at the expense of others. No thought leaders in that space worth their weight in salt would even suggest that, particularly when literally dozens of healthier options are available to almost ALL cheaters (divorce, counseling….).
That’s what I was thinking. Does Esther even know what the term self-actualization means? I don’t think so. I know we mention on here that cheaters could choose counseling, divorce, etc over cheating but I don’t think that’s true. Normal people with a soul choose these things to fix relationships. Cheaters like the game and excitement and power of cheating. It rarely has anything to do with their marriage being bad.
I started family counseling this week with my STBX so he “could rebuild his relationship with his boys and have a better relationship with their mom (me).” The counselor asked what it would take to have a better relationship with ex and I said “how about some genuine remorse, repentance, empathy and compassion.” I got a blank stare from ex. Then I said “M destroyed our family was cruel to me and our boys and seemed to actually enjoy it and I don’t want any relationship with someone like that.” Again, a blank stare from ex. The boys held their ground and stood up to him and he didn’t like it. These people aren’t about fixing things and living a self actualized life, they are about selfishness and controlling others and they live in a dark place.
You- mighty.
🙂
Why are you in counseling with this person? Be in no-contact. This kind of thing will not help anyone, least of all you and your kids. Being away from him will.
I have been no contact with him for over a year. I could have never done this over a year ago but my oldest son wanted to do it to say some things to his father he needed to say in a safe place and I wanted him to get that chance. After a year with a great counselor and tons of support from friends, family and my church I could sit in counseling and be ok. I did not trigger, I just sat there and really knew that ex sucked so much. My oldest son wants one more session to say a few more things, my younger son doesn’t want to go again and I certainly won’t make him. I now know I can do it and be there for my son. I’ve realized I’m on my way to meh! Yay!
Awesome, Nicole S!
I think it’s really hard to keep from getting triggered. Cheaters like to press Chump triggers so that the Chumps look like the crazy ones. When we fail to rise to the bait, our Cheaters have to up their ante, and they get to the point where it’s clear that they’re the ones with the flaming personality disorder.
Well done, for modeling the sane parent, for being Mighty enough to allow your son the safe place to say a few things to his father, and for respecting your younger child’s wishes not to go again.
You are truly Mighty! 🙂
Wow Chump Nation you have made my day today. Thanks for so much encouragement! Chumpedupchik- I hope you get there too because it is empowering and liberating. I believe in God’s perfect timing and I think that is what happened for me. I was put into that situation when I could handle it and be the role model my kids needed. A year ago I was a shaky, blubbering mess. What a difference a year with a great counselor and surrounding myself with amazing people can make. I sincerely pray the same for all chumps out there. ( I still have bad days sometimes but they are becoming more rare.)
Wow Nicole! You are a mighty mighty mom! kb- you wrote exactly what would happen to me whenever I ended up going to a counselor with Mr. Lying Cheaterpants. It’s quite astonishing how he managed to go about it – I often didn’t see it coming (even though I knew he’d try something), but he’s scary good at it, finds a back door and hits that trigger. And, then yes, I would become upset and look completely unhinged, while he sat wide eyed and pretending to be confused by my response. Then the focus was about my “anger issues.” Fuck that. I looked at Mr. SmuglyAss and said I didn’t have an anger problem, I had a cheating, lying, gaslighting, vindictive asshole for a husband problem. Last session I ever went to with HIM. Stupid fucker. It STILL makes me SO mad – double applause to you Nicole for being able to do it right. I want to get there. Good for you and your boys. Well done mighty mama!
Thank you kb! The morning of counseling I was in tears because I was dreading it so much but once I was there I was fine. I didn’t get flustered and said what I needed to say. Then I just sat back and tried to listen and observe the ex in action and for the first time I think I got to see him for the person he really is. No spackling in my head, no sugar coating, just honest perception and I knew I was completely over him and his crap. It was a moment of freedom.
Sincere Congratulations Nicole 😉
Nicole S, I am so impressed by you. Way to stand up for you and your boys!
Thank you Fifi for the kind words! I have a mama bear heart like most of us chumps.
I wish I would have had the chance to say the things you said! However, my ex would never go with me to counseling, and even if he did and I was able to say the same things, he would have charmed the panties off the counselor and made her believe that I really was the problem. Yuck!
I never thought I would get the chance either. But suddenly he wanted to do family counseling. (He’s still trying to prove he is a wonderful father. Gag.) I feel like I have some closure in standing up to him and showing him I am a new mighty woman. He tried the charm thing but the counselor saw right through it. Loved it! We could see him losing control in the session and he almost completely lost it. Just another chance for my kids to see who he really is and make wise boundaries with him. I hope you get your chance too AAC!
Before I found out about the cheating, a good friend, our business partner and myself had convinced the STBX to get counselling because the 3 of us were concerned about his drinking.
So he went and then one day after a couple of months the counsellor asked if I would come along. So I did. He was all smooshed down in his chair and looking like a little lost boy. I had never seen anything like it. It was a bizzare experience. He grabbed my hand to hold it and was passive aggressive the whole hour. I expressed how worried I was about him etc (as you do when you truly care for someone). Silly me!!!
The counsellor called me after and asked if I would like to come and see her seoerately. Of course I said yes because I was willing to help the STBX. I come from a long line of “Step all over me” women. Seriously there must be a gene.
Things got interesting she was assessing me and all sorts of stuff. I hadn’t ever been to a counsellor so I didn’t know what to expect. At the end she said she was a little confused but she thought that after speaking with the STBX everything would be resolved and could we meet again in a couple of weeks. Something wasn’t matching up for her (duh it wasn’t for any of us we were all being Played).
Then boom the following week some of the cheating was exposed, like a Pollack painting hitting the wall. (Apologies to those Pollack lovers). But that’s how it felt like a confusion of colours all abstract like.
So long story short. After seeing the counsellor again she said she didn’t have the experience to deal with our situation. Or more precisely the STBX. And the blithering mess (that was me) she could refer to someone else.
Before leaving she adviced me to be very careful (best advice ever) as she had never encountered someone as manipulative as the STBX and that she had been totally sucked in by his “victim” performance. He had painted me as a controlling bully. Who was lazy, nasty and crazy. A Sociopath.
Of course she was totally thrown when she met me in the first joint session and then after the one on one session totally perplexed. She knew I wasn’t a sociopath no where near close. In fact I was a caring, loving wife who wanted the best for her husband. And the equation she thought she had was wrong. But with the subsequent revelations of his multiple affairs etc etc the true sociopath was revealed, the STBX!!!
Subsequently I have found out that all the STBX’s friends were being given a version of me like the above. Particularly the women. But when they met me they couldn’t make the dots match. I was vindicated when everything came out and now everyone knows what a sociopath he is. He wasn’t as careful as he thought he was and now people know the real him. And Boo Hoo he doesn’t like it.
You reap what you sow I say!!
Damn, DragonLady, that is a hell of a story – what justice for you to see it play out in real time like that, but ugh, he sounds like a real piece of work
That’s so awesome! Way to stand up to the asshole.
Thank you. It felt so good.
Blunders and a f**king barf bag. I like your attempt to make sense of the cheaters rationalisation Justin, it made my head hurt, it was spot on.
Ester doesn’t explain why they are shitty with everything else like chores, money kids etc, is that part of finding yourself also?
Brava!
Don’t lynch me but I think Esther is on to something…from the cheater’s perspective. I believe my x saw cheating as self-actualization. I believe he saw himself as too big a personality, too fully alive, too special to moulder in a corner, a victim of life’s banality. He had appetites others could not understand. He could not condemn himself to a vanilla life. He had that desire to gobble more than his share without paying for it.
What he didn’t understand was that trust and intimacy are gifts of great value. Maybe it just wasn’t something he could fully experience and his faux, version was boring and unsatisfying. But the cheating was definitely an expression of what he felt he deserved for himself.
He, too, told me “those women meant nothing to me.” Did not care for it when I said, “Oh, so let me understand. You’re saying you destroyed our marriage for something that was meaningless to you.”
Of course it meant something. He chose it over our marriage.
He likely meant it, that they meant nothing. Only THEY truly matter and it is truly all about them. It’s about how OW’s and OM’s make THEM feel, what they are providing these disordered assholes.
I told X-hole “you told me you LOVED her! After talking to her on the PHONE for 3 weeks!!!!!” His reply… “I said it felt like love, it was fantasy.” Yeah well I felt like they were both a couple of weirdo assholes.
Lived with him for 8 years….he was a stranger. Wtf?
>>”Lived with him for 8 years….he was a stranger. Wtf?”
Exactly this. It’s like finally taking a red pill after ingesting blue pills throughout your entire marriage. Wake up one day and BAM! you are living with a complete stranger and your entire life has been one grand (well, not-so-grand) illusion.
(In case my reference is unclear, red pill/blue pill refers to the movie Matrix.)
Jess’s Mom, I feel the same way, after 20 years of marriage I don’t know who I was married to. X had me convinced he was Mr. Integrity, the all american guy, always followed the rules, looked down on anyone who didn’t.
Sadly, I believed him, I always had the feeling that I couldn’t love up to his high standards.
Finding out my whole life with him was a lie and he is nothing like who he portrayed himself to be is shocking.
I realize now X is like the reptile that changes it’s colors, X changes his personality to one that would reap the best benefits X depending on the situation.
My life has been a lie, I married to an imposter, the man I thought I married never existed.
I’m living one of those dramatic made for TV movies, while your watching you think to yourself, entertaining but how can someone not know who there married to, that never really happens..,
Yes, it does happen, I look back now and recognize some of the red flag moments I ignored when I shouldn’t have. I believed in the person I thought I married not the cheating, slimy piece of shit he is.
I remember that in a post some time back a chump said “once the mask falls off you are dealing with a stranger, treat him as such!” Might have been TheClip or Tempest?? Can’t be positive who said it but THAT is some serious truth right there.
Interesting reference, Jess’s Mom, since D-Day I have described my experience with ex as Matrix-like…finding out one day it was all nothing more than a complex illusion. Disorienting to say the least.
Agreed! My serial cheating X said the other women meant nothing to him – he said they weren’t emotional affairs they were “ego affairs.” I responded and said that I believed him – he didn’t have an emotional attachment to the other women but that he also didn’t have an emotional attachment to me!
It’s possible the women did mean nothing.. just as you probably meant nothing, or close to nothing. People with this personality can’t feel anything really for anyone but themselves. That’s what is so fucked up about it.
That’s the thing, isn’t it? If the affair was meaningless and the AP meant nothing to the cheater, all the pain inflicted because of the cheating was pointless, wasn’t it? X tried to tell me I was his “one true love”, but if that were true, he threw away something of great value for something that had no value whatsoever. That makes absolutely no sense. If a relationship has value, the logical thing to do would be to treat it as the most precious thing in one’s life. Instead, cheaters treat their relationships as yesterday’s garbage. Which leads me to conclude that Perle is dead wrong. At least in the moment, the affair was providing something essential to the cheater. In my situation, and many others, I believe it was what I call ” hero worship” or, as CN so aptly refers to them, ego kibbles. Which means that cheater’s ego is more valuable to the cheater than love. And that is the truth.
You nailed it Violet!
That’s it. Entitled. How much whore touches him, buys for him, does for him, doesn’t have to lift a finger. Pays attention to only him, hangs on every word, builds his ego to epic proportions, his word is law, he is a god. Makes her family tow the line what he wants. This is what he told me. Excuse me I have to barf. Entitled, ya think?
Kar Marie
They lack basic values. X said to me more than once that he told the latest victim he wasn’t happy for two years. They want someone to put them on a pedistal. What part if lying and cheating is attractive? EP is a complete moron capitalizing on deviant behavior and packaging it as self-actualization. So all the whores, porn, drugs, alcohol, and emotional abuse was for a greater good? She can take that cheater speak and shove it up her ass.
Exactly! How many of these cheater relationships last. Not many I’m betting. What is attractive about anyone lying and betraying a loving faithful spouse, blows their family apart and ignores their own children. Not a damn attractive site at all. Whore juice must love those qualities in her man he’s already done it to her twice. Dumb bitch. What would make her think he will be loyal to her or her kids?
X-hole was always jealous, or acted like it. I never got it, always made it clear that he was the one. Now I know why, duh! Nonetheless those two assholes KNOW the lengths to which they went to deceive and lie and cheat to pursue their hook ups, affair, twu wub or whatever you want to call it….there is no way in hell they will or could ever possibly trust each other. Almost laughable. Have fun with that shit.
X told me I was his best friend, of course he loved me.., Absolutely, self hero worship, I didn’t appreciate all the time and effort he spent working on his physique, I didn’t complement hm on his muscles. According to his fb, he and AP (wearing matching fluorescent workout ensembles) he has his cheerleader.
Yes, X easily discarded his previous cheerleader (me) like a piece of garbage. He will always be on the look out for more kibbles, new cheerleaders.
Perel, not Perle, not that I give a shit whether I spell her name correctly…
Entitled vs self-actualization? I’m leaning toward entitled.
Yup–giving your life over to a greater good = actualization. Getting your jollies thru orgasms outside your marriage/relationship = entitled
Maybe Self Entitalization?
A new word for for the modern dictionary?
Yup – entitled.
Yup yup for entitled!
Ohana, you nailed it
Ohana I think you are correct. The cheater is feeling bored, lifeless, unconnected to life. There must be something “more”. I have everything I ever wanted and it still doesn’t make me happy. “WHY am I here?” ….
and instead of doing soul searching….they panty surfed.
I took a photography class at our local community college….he also had a love of photography in the form of porn.
I liked meeting new people with common interests….so did he….people he could screw on the side.
So in truth, Ester is onto something…….she sugar coats the hell out of it.
I’ve read, in many of the countless articles over the past year that this is exactly the problem with the disordered, they are perpetually bored and never ever satisfied. They decide, since there is absolutely nothing wrong with them that WE, or the relationship /marriage is lacking and they start acting on these impulses to satisfy their own selfish needs and desires. They are all that matters don’t cha know…they DESERVE it no matter who gets hurt in the process.
Because they are incapable of self reflection and owning their own shit they never figure out that THEY are the problem, even when they screw themselves royally they blame that shit on someone….ANYone else.
Yikes. Painfully spot on.
Angry, bitter, crazy, unwilling to let it go…..yup mark all those boxes. And mark the box where I am not going to slip away quietly so the truth doesn’t offend anyone. Mark that box with a huge effing X. My stbx screwed his secretary, then another Co worker while at the same time hooking up with his whore he met on a business trip to Chicago. Which caused him to be outed about the coworker at the office. My brother in law helped him cheat. And when the family found out the truth, well I was always a bitch, I was always crazy, he stayed for the daughters……. he couldn’t keep his dick in his pants and yet I’m to blame.
As the CL knows….the family troll was on this very blog blasting me….I luckily never saw it. CL did and deleted it. She truly does have our backs.
The Family who makes excuses and vilifies the innocent….the people who turn the left cheek on adultery…… those people are the ones to run from. If they don’t see the damage cheating does then what other little indiscretions are they ok with???
I lost a cheater and his whole effed up family and gained a life and gained some self respect. My daughters see how effed up their family is. They want no part of it. Thank God.
I’m so sick of article after article justifying why cheaters do what they do and not taking into account the betrayed spouse. It’s seems the loudest voices on the internet are the other woman and cheaters. My ex told anyone who would listen to him how hard he had it being married to me and how I caused him to step out of the relationship. But I was embarrassed and in shock so I only shared with those close to me. Anyone who knew both sides was on mine. Those who don’t know me were willing to believe whatever he said. You would think someone as high profile as Esther would actually take in the betrayed spouse prospective a little more when it comes to infidelity. I never needed someone else’s genitals to discover my true self. I’m just saying.
Some people believe their bullshit because they’ve been sabotaging us LONG before they are caught. They lay the ground work, telling their poor sausage one-sided story in an attempt to JUSTIFY the shit they do. X-hole always told people he was tired of me being MAD at him all the time and being negative….for NO reason. That’s where the “problem” lies. We differ in our opinions of whar constitutes “all the time” and “for no reason”. Ummm sorry…I was TIRED of him being an irresponsible asshole, spending money we didn’t HAVE on things and people who didn’t need or deserve it (including himself) while ignoring his financial responsibilities and self-destruction.
I consider the source and the recipients, f*ck the lot of them. Really. They are all poisonous!
NCstevie – not to diminish the importance of your excellent post, but it did bring to mind the first thing out of Ben Affleck’s mouth when he got caught with the ‘nanny’…was – my wife is SO controlling!” I had to do this? wth. I’m sure I’m not the only one who caught that statement of blaming his wife for his fucking ego.
I was never called controlling but hand raised on “cold”. I wasn’t cold…I was gaslit and projected into submission. How do you talk to a man who refuses to communicate and is never…ever wrong? You don’t. I just quit fighting it.
On Affleck….”he had to?” Cheaters always justify. Us chumps endure a TON of bullshit, horrible treatment by our cheaters and yet we never resort to screwing someone else to ease the burden or pain. Weak ass excuses from weak ass cheaters.
Snake is pulling the “she doesn’t communicate” card…
Guess what fucker, when I communicate, and I am belittled, when I communicate and I am shut down, when I communicate, and I am ignored, when I communicate and frozen out as a result… I STOP FUCKING COMMUNICATING!
I am seriously amazed how much better it feels to be away from the gaslighting asshole.
They don’t give a shit about communicating, assholes just like to make you feel inadequate and pretend that you’re the problem.
Good thing for him that he was already gone by the time I figured out that he was doing all this shit deliberately.
Amazing how peaceful it is, how the crazy subsides once you aren’t being subjected to the constant mindfuckery.
You just summed up my 20+yr relationship with asshat. Thanks.
Affleck is a raging covert narcissist. Always has been, always will be. Run, Jen, run.
I copped that nonsense from one of my cheating ex’s, too. Apparently I was a cold frigid bitch who was ‘so controlling’ as well.
My response? “If he wasn’t such a piece of shit who couldn’t keep his dick in his pants not to screw his best mates little sister, I wouldn’t have to be controlling, now would I?” Cue the crickets after that one.
Lone Wolf, that was painful to read, reminded me of my own situation. Why oh why did I keep my mouth shut? I should have told everyone in his family about it. Water under the bridge now.
Hey Lone Wolf – a big tight hug to you.
NO ONE TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THE BETRAYED SPOUSE.
I agree with my whole heart and soul.
I am so sick and tired of people who tried to tell me I did not do enough or he wouldn’t have to stray. Hmmm… really. What happened to vows?
Cheaters are so charming they can make people believe anything they want. I have lost many people whom I considered friends but I really do not care. Only one who has been cheated on can truly understand the depth of the pain. If it was hard being married to you why the hell didn’t he leave?
If only we could get inside their heads and wash their brains out!
Lone Wolf, my X told everyone how difficult I was to live with and he just couldn’t take another minute… he had tried everything.., he was left not other choice.. He added that he suspected I was mentally ill, possibly Bipolar and an alcoholic. X was known to shed a few tears as he told the story for added drama and sympathy.
He tried everything?? He did try everything to get me to question my sanity.
Would he go to a marriage counselor with me? Yes, and no, I went he came 20 minutes late said he got lost as he was following me in his own vehicle. When the therapist started to ask us questions, X got up, and said she lied to me! we are supposed to be here for our son.
Therapist knew he was playing a game.., Is that what you would call trying everything to save our marriage?
He has done his best to drag me down. I thought I’d be the mature and not say anything ,
kept things to myself.., After reading what I’ve read here,
I’m no longer going to be keeping my mouth shut.
I get the looks from people we knew..,
I’ve had people tell me they feel sorry for X.., he’s such a nice guy,
he’s told them how much he’s been suffering throughout the divorce.
X has put me through hell and back.
It’s time he did some suffering, and hopefully soon.
Brit, it’s such a sick thing for us to be made out to be the one who is crazy or too emotional or insert adjective here….it was over, we grew apart, I was lonely….WHATEVER! and then the fake emotion of cheater, mine was good at fake tears too, oh poor me, my mommy issues, don’t you understand me. So glad he’s the APs now. But damn it took me a long time to see the truth.
Only one who has been cheated on can truly understand the depth of the pain. Indeed, this is sooooo true. But what I’ve found out is there are more chumps in the world than we know. I found them in coworkers, former coworkers, a neighbor, my doctor’s support staff, friends from college, and even my children’s teachers.
Those that don’t know you or your side of the story will always take the cheater’s side. I didn’t go whole hog with the truth because I didn’t want to make the settlement process harder by making Narkles the Clown angry while I had to reside with him. Now it’s a slow leak, here or there,I toss it into conversation when I can without it looking forced. For Example
When someone ask: How are the kids handling the divorce?
I answer: Oh, I think they’ll be fine as long as he doesn’t move his affair partner into his home
Amazingly the return response has been quite a few “Oh, I know how you feel, I’ve been there.”
I refused to sign a confidentiality agreement for a reason. This is his shame, not mine. I won’t hide it for him.
If it’s so ok, and wasn’t their fault and we are so terrible and they are just becoming their best self, why does there need to be confidentiality? Oh wait, becuase they are gross.
Scratch a cheater, you will find a hypocrite
Arlo, this is so true. Both ways. I scratched a hypocrite and found a cheater.
Great article. My STBXH gave me the “this had nothing to do with Her” line a couple of times. It was not about sex or his emotional affair. It was all about finding himself. He needed to know who he was and fucking other people seemed like the best way. He obviously never intended to hurt me. He just really needed that “self actualization”. I was actually the selfish one for letting my desire for monogamy interrupted his quest for the self.
Hmm maybe I am a bit bitter after all.
Finding himself?
In another vagina?
First, the eye on the end of his penis doesn’t actually SEE anything, so it’s not going to FIND anything.
And not even the sluttiest scumbucket has a vagina large enough to encompass the overinflated egos of these entitled asshats.
Dude, you’re looking for yourself in all the wrong places. Might I suggest a woodchipper as a better place to try to “find yourself”?
>>”First, the eye on the end of his penis doesn’t actually SEE anything, so it’s not going to FIND anything.”
I’m so glad I wasn’t drinking when I read this … I quite literally laughed out loud!
Standing Ovation!
I got “go ahead and blame her if it makes you feel better about this, it wasn’t her fault, we were over long before I met her.”
Stupid asshole, I blame HIM for cheating….and I blame her for knowingly and willingly participating in the destruction of BOTH families.
F*uck the both of them, and the rest of the asshole cheaters of the world….every single destructive one of them.
Calling justified anger “bitterness” is just another opportunity for those assholes to blameshift the responsibility onto victims.
*slow clap*
And adding a standing ovation!!
Indeed
Yes, that’s so true NCStevie!!!!!!
I was told, “My relationship with S* (the skank) has NOTHING to do with my relationship with you.” Oh really?!
Wow. My X told me rhe same thing, “she had nothing to do with this.” meanwhile, he 52 she 24. My X is a predator and she is a criminal.
I was told “she’s good for me”. Well then by all means dump your family and start a new life. Sorry we were in your way. Didn’t mean to stop your growth by asking that you please stop screwing another woman and commit to your family. Gosh, it really is a bummer when responsibilities and commitment get in the way of finding your true self.
Yes, I know we are somehow the crazy ones for asking them to keep the promises they made when they married us.
Every choice, decision and action has MEANING.
The fact that these losers MEANT to deceive their partners by flinging their genitals out there to catch random lays, whether pro, ons, LTA or whatever, highlights their intent to dupe their partners on their quest for more cake.
Make no mistake, the chump was never holding a gun to their partner’s head demanding they fuck that ho from the bar, obtain their happy ending massage, create their AM or AFF profile, exchange CL titty pics, etc. Whether it was once or many times, this lack of character and need to feel alive is 100% on the cheater.
There are other ways to “feel alive!” that don’t involve giving your partner STDs, destroying your children and imploding other people’s lives. Go sky diving. Go bungy jumping. Run a marathon. Go to a museum. Go camping. How about also for those assholes, go to therapy?!
This is old news for chumps: what I have learned over the past 2 yrs is that the people who want to minimize the after shocks of deceit and betrayal are usually cheaters themselves. These people may cheat on their spouses or cheat on their taxes or cheat in competitive sports. They cannot reconcile the fact that purposeful deceit for their advantage is a serious lack of integrity. No amount of bible thumping or acting as if they are people of character can erase the stain of what they ARE-Opportunistic Liars who never think the consequences for their actions will come back and kick them in the ass. When it does come back around, they are the loudest group to cry foul.
I’m not bitter. This same group of people loves that tag line. What I’m stating is the TRUTH based on the FACTS. Ouch.
Meaningless Fling?= NoStringsAttached (NSA)?
Esther must applaud all those premeditated cheaters on hook-up sites who at least use the correct terminology as they follow their bliss. The hobbyists on The Erotic Review must love the cover Esther gives them.
Does she preach that cheaters should be truthful, have integrity, and honorably sever prior binding commitments? The Betrayed aren’t on her radar. We aren’t edgy enough.
“We’re not stupid for wanting our feelings to be considered…”
This is where I’m parked. Why does no one see this?
We can wrap it up anyway we like….it boils down to this….the cheater cheated because they wanted to….at some point they thought…” shouldn’t cheat….would really hurt other person if they knew….but I want to”…. .that’s it
Nope, didn’t hurt one bit. Didn’t illustrate to my daughter that women have no value other than for a man’ pleasure. Didn’t illustrate to my son that women are toys, when you are tired of playing with one, you can add to your collection! That’s what killed me, misogyny in the guise of self actualization.
OutWest, brillian! “…misogyny in the guise of self actualization.”
Gentlemen, I know it’s a two way street and it’s not just men cheating on women…
I used to think that it was only men who cheated on their wives, unless they married a girl who was a known slut. I never imagined that my sweet VIRGIN bride would be the one to do it. I know she was virgin. Two years post D-Day and I am still in shock.
She always seemed so worried that I would cheat on her with another woman. She acted extremely jealous and checked up on me constantly. She said it was because her mother taught her that all men cheat.
Well, after 27 years I still haven’t cheated.
The jealousy, and worrying that you’re cheating – that’s a Cheater MO. They are so self-absorbed, they see the world only through their own beliefs. They are hooking up, or scanning for their next ‘Hot Little Number’, so you must be too!
Now, I know there must be jealous partners for other reasons, but I’m saying that this is why serial Cheaters think like this. I was (naively) flattered by X’s gigantic jealousy, I thought it meant he cared. The whole thing just makes me sick now. Probably any relationship that has jealousy in it, needs to head on over to couple’s therapy, it’s not healthy, go figure it out!
I guess I lived in a bubble because I thought the majority of the time it was men that cheated. Since my separation, I can’t tell you how many divorced guys told me they had been cheated on. It doesn’t mater if its a man or woman cheating, they are all scum. My wife wasn’t a virgin, but she professed love for only me and also worried about me cheating. When she admitted the affair, she told me she didn’t cheat for 20 years of our marriage. Really? Hey guess what, I was faithful for our whole 28 year relationship not just our marriage. They all suck!
From my limited experience, I’d say women cheat as much as men. It’s just that women are willing to discuss their cheaters with others while men who are betrayed keep it to themselves more. There may be a “manliness” stigma keeping us quiet. I’m personally OK with telling anyone who will listen that she sucks (chumped for 28 years).
Even if married women didn´t cheat as much as men, for all heterosexual male cheaters there is at least one or more female AP´s, so that means that women are equally complicit in the cheating. So, it is important to out the APs as much as the cheaters because they are all contributing to the destruction of chump lives and their families.
Absolutely!! Good for you Marked711!! I have NO problem telling people mine cheated. I wish someone had warned me…nope they all LIED and pretended to not know he had cheated on his previous wife.
I won’t lie for anyone, especially not him and specifically not about his cheating! Suck it up buttercup, I warned him about ever cheating on me because I had been cheated on before. I don’t feel bad one bit.
NCstevie, I am with you. I have no problem telling anyone and everyone that he cheated. Why would I cover for him for one second?
Wow she was loyal for 20 whole years? I guess she wants a bitch cookie!!! She sucks!
I think Ms. Perel doesn’t understand what infidelity actually MEANS. It is not only Married Person Has Sex With Someone Other Than His/Her Spouse;
Infidelity is Being Un-Faithful. And Cheaters never tire of finding new and ever more-creative ways to be unfaithful. They find excitement in it. Infidelity ALWAYS goes “way beyond” penis entering vagina. It’s all the “way beyond” garbage that makes the sex possible.
Duh.
Exactly.
For me, the sex stuff was just icky, but him falling in love with her, then rewriting our history such that he was never happy, thwarted in his goals, and deprived of love and affection, just killed me. Absent that, I probably could have forgiven the icky sex stuff. But he just trashed me and our entire relationship. That I will not forgive.
My issue was similar… except he put all of those reasons ON ME. That *I* must have felt all of those things because he was so unworthy of me… and he thought I “wouldn’t mind” because I was and always had been “far superior in every aspect.”
Uh, thanks? I’m supposed to be grateful that you latched onto and promised fidelity to someone so much better than you even though you pretty much never kept that commitment ever and never intended to? Prick. Was I supposed to thank you for pretending?
What kind of twisted love story is that?
“I knew I’d never be able to live up to the sort of man you deserved so… I promised you I would be and never actually was. Also, I figured that I’d get real VALUE out of being sneaky by being an even bigger dick than I’d originally been BEFORE meeting you.”
That is the same mindf*ckery my asshat told me. It’s all pity-party crap … My final understanding of it goes something like this:
“Poor me! I’m so pitiful compared to you that it hurt my fragile feelings and I needed to have them stroked … well I needed to have something stroked … to make me feel like a real man. Don’t you see, it’s really YOUR fault I did this. If you weren’t so far above me, I wouldn’t have been forced (by my pansy-ass ego) to do this.”
Well, at the end, I fully agreed that I was better. But I was better for no other reason than I decided that my family, love, and integrity are far more valuable than anything I could possibly gain from getting some strange.
Every single choice asswipe made, HE MADE. Cheaters have no meaning of the words, family, love, honesty, integrity, loyalty, promises or vows. In finding the perfect flawless woman and her perfect flawless family, he destroyed his own and wonders now, he didn’t mean to, its all good, can’t his old family forgive and forget, you know, one big happy blended family and good friends. They are all nuts. According to him, no one should be upset. He happy why is no one else? Asshole!
Screw that! Mine too want’s to still be friends. No thanks, i like for my friends to have my back and a little integrity. Just shows the level of selfishness they have.
What IS the deal with these assholes all thinking we should be friends??? X-hole keeps telling me “you’re the one who doesn’t want to get along.” No shit! I am forced to deal with your miserable ass because I bred with you….we.are. NOT. friends.
The PAIN and destruction they cause does not affect them….not one bit. They are delusional.
They want to be friends so they can still use us in some way. And so they can worm their way back if Plan A doesn’t work out. The correct answer is “No.”
Yes, I’m as no contact, gray rock as possible and still get regular texts about what I can only assume is image management. “Always looking for a way for us to talk.” Fuck you. You treated me like complete shit for a long time and there is nothing you can say now to fix that. I most certainly will not be your friend.
I respond in notes to myself to get it out of my mind. He gets crickets.
CRHCHK that’s a great idea, responding in notes to yourself. I think I may just try that myself 😉
Crickets are good for cheaters, crhchk
I have a cricket sound bite just for asswipe.
I think they also do this for image control, so they look like “good” guys. I don’t “pretend”, I just can’t do it.
I jokingly told his ex-wife’s sister it was partially their fault I got duped…they all HATE him with a passion for doing the exact same thing to her but they were always “nice” to him. She said “eh, that was for the kids…we all call him d*ck head. ” Her dad is the only exception lol, it’s been over 10 years and her dad will not look at him, speak to him or acknowledge him in any way. That’s pretty much what he can expect from my family.
You tell her, Chump Lady!
I do want to say that, as a chump of an “emotional affair,” the problem is that you don’t really know if it was only emotional or whether they crossed over to a physical affair. They spent nights together but “didn’t do anything.” REALLY?! So not knowing whether they did or not, I have had all of the STD testing and have to go back for more in a few months. And he doesn’t understand why I was so upset! So the EX and the OW have moved out of the shadows and into a place where they can receive affirmation of their relationship. I hope they are “very happy” (sarcasm, much?) together.
BePositive, they certainly weren’t sitting around reading the Bible.
My ex also denies having sex with her, so he has a few people convinced it was only an emotional affair. I don’t care though since he admitted it to me. All he is trying to do is excerpt a little image control, meh.
My X – after YEARS of vehement denials – wouldn’t admit to anything unless I had concrete proof. And even then, he’d minimize in he weirdest way, as if it would make things better. He’d say “it was just a blowjob.” Oh sorry! Guess you’re off the hook then. Silly me!
Ugh. Bepositive, I think if EX and OW are together now, they probably were before you were divorced. I think “emotional affairs” are possible.. my H started that way… but truth is either way they cross a line. A real “ah ha” moment for me was realizing that whether they had sex or not didn’t matter. He was sharing with her, getting CLOSE to her while pulling away from me. Whether they did the deed is inconsequential really. Once I saw it that way I could be more real about the damage it caused. I could stop lying to myself that it was somehow “better” than physical contact, because actually, it’s not.
All I have proof of is an EA, and that is why I left.
But here’s the thing.
He was treating me like dirt.
He was pursuing her almost word for word with the lovey dovey flattery script he used to get into my pants all those years ago…
Am I somehow supposed to believed he wasn’t trying to get into hers?
The fact he’s using the same fucking script makes me believe he’s had some practice over the years to get it down pat.
Whether he had or hadn’t accomplished the deed with her yet, he clearly intended to as soon as she was bamboozled enough.
What obligation did I have to wait around for the gaslighting emotionally abusive blameshifting fucker to fuck her before I left?
None, I say.
My ex spent time at a whore’s apartment, but claimed no sex cause she “had such high morals.”. That was enough for me. Women with morals don’t have other women’s husbands alone at their apartment, in secret.
I didn’t have to prove he fucked the slut. I believe Guilty till Proven Innocent. He can never prove that, in one billion years. So yeah buddy, I will and always have believed you had sex with that nasty disease ridden crotch.
Mine also spent time at her apartment.. claimed they were only friends. When I confronted the whore she said “How dare I suggest she was improper with my H”.. HOW DARE I? You had him in your APARTMENT you skank! Seriously.. she’s deluded. I feel sorry for her really, she’s clearly broken.
In my view, it matters not if they fucked.. the fact that he was THERE is bad enough. That is betrayal enough.
Once they start lying to you about when and where they’ve been it doesn’t matter whether they’ve cheated or not. 98% of the time they are lying.
Mine assured me that one of his affairs was only standard flirting that I was too uptight to understand. I suppose that’s true because I don’t flirt and offer massages and drinks to my coworkers. But I see work as work, not a whore hunting ground. I do tend to believe that he hadn’t banged the flirting lady, because he was having sex with a different coworker. Which he informed me was another situation I couldn’t possibly understand due to my social ineptitude.
Emotional affair + opportunity = physical affair. If they spent nights together, they had a physical affair. Trust me on this one!
I believe Violet is right. They don’t, won’t cop to anything you don’t have hard proof of. My stbxh vehemently, and passionately denied sexual relations. I later found out that it was a sex carnival rather than an “emotional affair”. The details were mind blowing… very dark and sordid… makes my skin crawl. Don’t doubt yourself.
Its a journey, you are right. Sex carnival at its best! Skivotz, they deserve each other. Depraved desprate souls. I guess they are trying to invent a new cirq de souless!
“cirq de souless!”
Love it, Jean
Esther Perel. She uses a lot of words in full pedantic style to say what I think is the following: 1) The cheated on are to be blamed (” There comes a point when one no longer can tolerate feeling devalued and taken for granted”); 2) cheaters just want to expand their experiences and self (“Even more than the quest for a new lover we want a new self”); 3) we need to use academia and what appears to be an acceptance of all things to explain infidelity (notice in her article it takes 5 paragraphs to get to the point (“’I’d like to offer a view that challenges this premise and encompasses both growth and betrayal at the nexus of affairs”). Growth? Really?
The scariest thing about Esther Perel is she is a justifier. Once you get through her long-winded wordy beat around the bush style, her justification is so reminiscent of the overwhelming collective consciousness that CN and CL know about cheaters and their disordered characters, e.g., personal quest of affairs without regard to promises to partner and family, no remorse, selfishness (“I just needed to self-actualize”), lies, manipulation, and cold-hearted lack of integrity. Geez, her article has all those characteristics.
My question to you Esther Perel, cheat much?
” There comes a point when one no longer can tolerate feeling devalued and taken for granted”
Yes, indeed, that’s why we chumps left.
Leaving is the high road. Rutting in a hotel over the lunch hour, not so much.
Ms. Perel’s idiotic musings are like little puffs of noxious gas. One end is so tightly closed that shit has no choice but to come out of another orifice.
Yesterday I was having lunch at the beach. Two ladies and a guy, in their late thirties, were at the next table. One lady had long brown hair, yellow teeth, was holding a cigarette, the other had blonde hair tucked up and a snobbish attitude. They asked the shaved head guy “are you married ?” He mumbled something, he was living with his long-time girlfriend. They wanted to know if he was happy, he gave a mitigated answer. “You are not in love, right ?” said the brunette, while the blonde started singing “he is not in love, he is not in love”. He protested. A lot of pats in the back, high fives, followed, as in “we are such good buddies”.
I was suddenly seized with an urge to punch both women in the face.
I did not react and it took me a while to calm down.
I was thinking about the long-time girlfriend, who probably suffered from the lack of commitment, worked her ass off, and had no clue that these bitches were trying to destroy their couple while having lunch with her man.
I have met some manipulative duo of “good friends of the opposite sex” before. I had a crush for a guy and they did all they could to prevent us from dating. Guess what, one of them finally managed to shack up with him years later.
Also, I can’t stand these people who consider that you MUST feel the excitement of “love at first sight” ALWAYS during your relationship otherwise it’s “not a valid relationship”. This is so immature, so dumb.
NCstevie just wrote above: “Real love is deep it isn’t EXCITING and new every day….it’s better. It’s the good stuff after the sparkles wear off.” I totally agree. This is why these two bitches will remain alone.
Ps, she just makes me so mad because she’s just providing fuel for cheaters to justify their actions: “I needed to self-acutalize, you weren’t giving me enough attention, infidelity is not so bad, the only way I can feel alive is by cheating, I’m lonely, I’m emotionally deprived, it enhanced our marriage.”
Please notice in Esther Perel’s writing her justifying, glossing over, and padding the actions of truly disordered and hurtful people: cheaters. She gives very little emphasis to the “…deep emotional crisis…” we experience but just wants to justify cheating in a very scary way: by being superior, by appearing to be an academic expert. Sorry, she just really gets to me I think it is primarily because she is perpetuating the justification of cheating and I find that very sad and sick.
My introduction to Perel was actually somewhat positive: it was a video of an interesting talk she gave on intimacy, seduction, and attraction in long-term relationships.
It was ALL DOWNHILL from there. Her talks and writings on infidelity are (I am being kind here) total pretzel logic.
Since I like to simplify, I boiled Perel’s infidelity stance down to a single question:
Is a *productive* “quest for aliveness” or attempt at self-actualization morally compatible with lying, breaking vows, and putting others in harm’s way?
You can throw the logic of any of the most prominent moral philosophers at that question and they will ALL end up at the same answer:
NO.
Interestingly, Perel’s “logic” (I am being kind there) in defense of infidelity centers on the possibility that others are making too many moral assumptions about the cheater… which is exactly what she is doing about the betrayed (e.g., the betrayed’s safety and feelings are less important; the cheater had no other alternatives because…[insert lame, blame-shifting excuse here]; etc.).
From my perspective, the entire Perel thing totally falls apart at that point; it’s making the cheater’s situation out to be far more extreme – and the betrayed’s situation far more simple – than it is in probably 99.99999% of all cases of infidelity.
Sephage, I think self actualization implies growth. I have the advantage of being ten years out and seeing the happy couple from that vantage point. Just after DDay I was told by a wise woman, “You will suffer more than they do, but you will grow. They will not.”
Fast forward ten years after NC, ex is still cycling through self pity, rage, and blame. Really? Its ten years dude. Get over it. The OW, still a bridesmaid, never a bride, rages at me, and calls herself the “Infamous M”. Triangulating much?
No. They don’t grow. They don’t self actualize. The people who benefit from this shit storm are the chumps. We have to examine ourselves, our exes, our marriages, our FOO issues just in order to climb out of the very deep hole our “loved ones” threw us in, and thought to bury us. But they fail. We climb back out as wiser, better, more human, and far more empathic people. So yes, Esther, affairs lead to self actualization…….ours.
Wow! Love this, BoundaryGirl. You are a wise woman, too.
Thank you Ohana. But really I owe all my hard-won wisdom to my ex and his OW, or Eeyore and Cruella, as I like to call them.
Excellent.
wonderful post
Fantastic post.
No doubt, that is absolutely brilliantly stated. Every single word!
Wow, thank you, this is excellent.
Putting this one up on the mirror.
Thank you
Well said Boundary girl!
Right on, Boundary!
100% agree Boundary girl!!!! I’ve learned more in 3 years…. I like to think of this as my college degree. I didn’t go to college. It’s funny, I didn’t like it back then because I had to take subjects I wasn’t interested in. And here I am being educated on things I never wanted to be involved in. Life has its ways….
Absolutely. I wouldn’t wish this on anybody, but it has been one of the best experiences of my life and I like myself so much better than I did 2 years ago.
Yaaaaaay, BoundaryGirl. Standing O for you!!!!
Bravo Boundary Girl. Bravo! Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap…
Yes!
Many resounding claps Boundary Girl and I love your wise woman quote: “You will suffer more than they do, but you will grow. They will not.” I know that is the truth. Well said and very profound. It’s going on my fridge right now!
Sephage, thank you. You are right on: “Is a *productive* “quest for aliveness” or attempt at self-actualization morally compatible with lying, breaking vows, and putting others in harm’s way?” Well said and the absolute most primary point. How would she answer that question? I am with you Sephage and appreciate you being so succinct in boiling it down. I was definitely getting riled up about it and appreciate your level-headed excellent points.
You would think this well worded question would get a straight answer. Unfortunately, Ms. Perel is incapable of the responsive answer of yes or no.
I am sure her answer would be “It depends.”
It is impossible to nail down a pathological cheater on their bullshit.
Thanks, ChumpB. Perel gets me riled up, too, but if anyone believes her views on infidelity then those people deserve what they get, which I suspect will be totally unfulfilled lives in any meaningful sense. Perel has little substance, so she needs a shtick to make money, I suspect; providing a sort of smoke-&-mirrors justification for unjustifiable behavior is that shtick.
sephate, I agree completely! “…smoke & mirrors…” for sure!
I wish her affair could be meaningless to me. It isn’t because it hurts. It means pain to me. It means pain to our children who no longer feel that home and family are a sanctuary. I no longer feel special, but rather insignificant like aa mere prop on her stage.
Yes, it causes entirely too much pain to the Chump, but equally (if not more so) to the very innocent children who have their world’s turned upside down because one of their parents decided a bit of strange was more valuable than the promises they made to their family (love, honor, cherish … forsake all others … etc.). Pain is not meaningless; rather it has a great deal of meaning to those who must suffer it.
You are not insignificant. You are a parent–a parent who didn’t betray your family unit. Remember that as you fight through this. There were moments I believed I would never regain myself, my balance, or even my sense of life. But I fought for my kids at first, then I learned how to fight for me again. You will to. Just keep fighting. Wishing you all the best.
Exactly. It hurts. The mow in my case was meaningless – he was feeling insecure about business shit – ie stuff that real men handle more effectively than dropping their pants – and I wasn’t coddling him. So he looked around, and had 2 choices: man up and deal with the shit that life in the 1st world deals you as a white businessman in the USA, or find a wet hole. Spoiler alert: he chose door #2. She was his direct report, often referred to as skippy because she spreads so easily. Sooooo much easier than option 1.
Ironically, what ended the whole thing (a yr before I found out) was that he was revolted by the fact that skippy left her family – h and 4 kids to screw and blow him in self actualizing and reaffirming locales – highway motels – and tell him what good people they both were. A 50 yr old woman blowing her balding limp dick boss in a shitty hotel just wasn’t sexy after a few months. I know, right? Didn’t see that coming.
Trust me, he’s humiliated – when they were able to terminate her, he got several phone calls for new business “because now that the industry bicycle no longer works for you, we’d like to come back.” She almost destroyed the business that he had risked losing over a possible sexual harassment suit. A valid one.
And the original reason for the affair again? Yeah, his ego being bruised by bad (not terrible) business decisions, and not feeling the success he felt he was due. How do you like them apples?
I’m the bitter one though – which I think is what narcs say right before they stick their fingers in their ears and sing “la la la” loudly. It just effectively makes the shit storm they caused our hot potato to deal with.
Yep….ego bruising and facing the consequences of their POOR decisions. X-hole started working out again which led to competing again at 45. Placed 2nd in his first show (his comeback performance) and then NADA…zero placing in the next 5 shows over two years. I said “You look incredible but you need to stick to competing in the Master’s, not open class against 20 & 30 year old men and you will place.” Guess I wasn’t a good enough cheerleader. He wanted someone to stroke his ego, tell him he was going to be the next champion and be super duper famous. Sorry, I don’t do pretend, gave that shit up when I gave up playing with Barbies.
I guess he wants someone who doesn’t know his life is a financial trainwreck, who doesn’t care if he is destroying himself in the pursuit of unattainable fame but will blindly encourage him. Can’t be satisfied with his health, his talent, his children and a woman who loves (loved) him completely in spite of himself. He’d rather have someone else’ cheating whore of a wife, blow up our lives and cause irreparable damage to another one of his children.
After the past year I’ve accepted the fact that walking out on me was the best thing he ever did, showing me who he REALLY is has made this easier for me. Unfortunately my son is too young to understand, I can’t tell my 8 year old that his father has a personality disorder. I’m just doing the best I can to love my son through it and praying for minimal damage.
Oh fuck me. Like how much sense would it make for me – almost 50, but age appropriately smokin’ in a bikini, minus a uterus, plus a few wrinkles – to compete against someone 15 yrs younger than me in any competition that was physical? I had my time, I kicked it’s ass, and now I’m here. I like here. I don’t care who you are, saggy balls, viagra, tits that look like tube socks with marbles in them, beautiful meaningful stretch marks – leave the physical beauty to the young ones – Gravity is coming for them too. Now it’s about character and that’s where the men get separated from the boys (or the wheat from the chaff, whatever sex is pissing you off). Be a fuckng grown up.
Nic, I salute you. That was an awesome post. I know you’ve had some major non-chump shit to deal with lately. Been thinking of and praying for you.
Thanks fmt. That means a lot to me.
Right on nic!! You definitely rock!! And I have said that to him lol!!! “Oh grow the fuck up!! You have 5 kids, ACT like it!” Stupid d*ck.
I just turned 52 myself and not in bad shape at all for my age. I had breast reconstruction this year after surviving breast cancer, double mastectomy and reconstruction all during the implosion of my life, compliments of cheater pants. How I navigated all that shit and landed on my feet mentally intact is nothing short of a miracle!!
Ironically if he hadn’t cheated I wouldn’t have caught the breast cancer early enough. Some chumps that have been here for over a year already know this. His cheating sent me straight to the doc’s office for a check up and STD panel and the doc found the lump. A year ago today I had a mammogram, ultrasound and biopsies. I received the phone call on November 10th that I had breast cancer and 6 days later he walked out. Nice guy eh?
Gotta love that, his cheating might have saved my life. Silver lining?
OWhore is 11 years younger than me and 5 years younger than him, I am happy to say you can’t tell….she hasn’t held her age well. Not that it matters but I wasn’t impressed one bit. She can have him.
Wild cheering over here nic! You rock!
VERY wild cheering nic!!!!
Standing O Nic! Bravo?
Destroy the family at all costs cause the cheater needs happiness. Fuck my loyal loving faithful wife of 30 years and fuck my grown up children get over it all of you, everybody cheats , this is what I want and I need to be happy! Stupid fuck doesn’t know what he wants and I hope he gets the life he deserves. This is going to affect me the rest of my life, I’ll put it away slowly I’m sure. My kids are sad we won’t ever be together as a family again. He told the kids don’t worry I will work on mom she will calm down and I will convince her to be best friends with me and “whore juice”. Then we can all be together again. WTF! kids don’t see it that way.
What you said rings true in my situation. He thought none of us would challenge what he’d done to our family. We’d accept and move on. Be a happy, divided family. His idealistic new world. Apart from me, who made him unhappy. With her, who makes him feel glorious. Two adult children who eventually would be totally okay with the new family dynamic. Of course, we have to move on, but we don’t ever have to accept, at least not on his terms. A year out, we still haven’t. And I think we shocked the shit out of him. He completely underestimated the reaction he would get from all three of us. Once again, he proved to be out of touch with us. Calculating real human emotion was never one of his strong suits.
Yes, full speed ahead with deception, lies and abandonment. Destroy the faithful mother and wife and make your own life 10 times worse in the process! Lies, greed, self gratification, I. MUST. CHEAT. Damn the feelings, damn the family, screw them I must be happy! And this new bitch with money makes me feel like a god! Turn around, wife why are crying I am happy! Come be joyous with me! Meet her, you’ll see best friends you will be! Come, come, my children embrace the deception and sing and dance joyously in my new found love. Don’t be sad for mom or that i destroyed our family everybody cheats! Its bliss. Its wonderful! Come my daughter learn how to cower and take disappointment like a real girl learn that cheating lying and promises are for saps and losers. And this mY. daughter is the correct treatment for women. Stay close and watch how i do it over and over again cause peoples feelings mean nothing to me as I have a black hole where my heart should be. . Stepover moms prone body she will be OK when she finally realizes she deserved it cause when she needed me most i totally fucked her over. How dare she have health issues and forget I am god! Learn my beloved son this it how you treat women. Practice on your sister and mom. Watch out, step over her not on her. Step over here to the glory of your penis! What a fucking asshole, my children have backed away from him that’s what happens when ignore them for three years, break promises and never ever not once were emotionally available to them. fucking asshole.
kar marie, I’m often impressed by your emotional power but you just went Old Testament on his ass and it was as impressive as hell.
Thank you. I have my moments.
Interesting prose! Reminds me of a youtube video “Charlie the Unicorn.” If you don’t know it, look it up. Yep, he wants to take us all to candy mountain. But we all know what happens once we get there. No thank you.
Thats what my xh told my grown kids too! She so nice and other horseshit. My daughter said “what does dad think that he can make that thing a minnie you mom.” Son thinks “what a loser.” Have at it dad keep trying to promote you lies and scheming shit on your youngin you bamboozled, not you kids who clearly know you shit on them as well.
Yes JeanM imho, most chump kids are brilliant .
“Destroy the family at all costs cause the cheater needs happiness.” ” He told the kids don’t worry I will work on mom she will calm down and I will convince her to be best friends with me….”
Because your absolutely unreasonable reaction to his cheating was all about you and not about his happiness. You big old meanie!!!! Why aren’t you on board with “happiness”!!!!????
The mental gymnastics needed to be on board with the happiness and be best friends with the cheater is horrendous! I must wonder if we are not all living in some kind of parallel universe and we just don’t understand what the rules here are.
“don’t worry I will work on mom she will calm down and I will convince her to be best friends with me and “whore juice”. Then we can all be together again.”
The master manipulator has it all under control, huh? His smarmy, cocky confidence is repulsive.
I’ve reached the point nowadays where I see consciously charming people as poison and scramble to get away from them.
yeah, what is it where they think we’ll just calm down and everything will be fine?
uh, no, not gonna happen.
I will always hate him, put is on my headstone.
Actually find a stronger word than hate.
‘ It meant nothing to me ‘ … ‘ it was meaningless’ … ‘ its not like I am in love with him/her’ … ‘ it was just sex’ Cheater Speak. I dont believe the flings or the affairs were meaningless or just sex… they got busted… Now they have to say something. So they chose a phrase that they feel will cause less damage which is usually attached to the emotional response you have to the cheating. Meaningless= minimize. Just sex = minimize
Meant nothing= minimize.
What cheater has said ‘ Yes… I loved it, i wanted it and I am going to continue to have it despite the pain that it may put you thru because the truth is I dont feel your pain and I dont want too’ Zero.
‘ I dont know’ Ever get that response when u have busted your kid doing something? The blanket ‘ i dont know ‘ response.
Cheater Speaker is just like that.
I’ve always understood marriage to be monogamous, if there’s a problem discuss the problem with your spouse come to an agreement or seek a therapist.
I was married for twenty years together for 24 years, we built a life together, shared families, sacrificed my career so he could advance in his, we had a child, I was stay at home mom, we bought a home, shared daily family life, vacations. Wouldn’t you think we had something in common? After twenty years of marriage cheater decides he’s like something different, and he’s already found it. Someone who he has more in common with than me. How long had he known her? six months? Oh, wait, but they didn’t fool around or anything until he moved out so he really didn’t cheat.. Things in common, something different?
Am I making a big deal out of his awakening and sudden realization that we have nothing in common?
Cheater didn’t want to go to a marriage therapist he had his mind made up. He made the choice to cheat, Cheater justified his cheating with AP because they have things in common, she does marathons, I don’t remember marathons being in our marital vows, being monogamous yes. Betrayal is going outside the marital boundaries, physical or emotional. Cheating is a choice which destroys lives, destroys dreams, breaks hearts, not only the spouse being betrayed, the entire family is betrayed. It’s devastation, an endless aftermath if you have children.., Self centered and self serving with no regard for the devastating aftermath. They’ll get over it, not that simple.
That was the line my STBX gave me too – “we have nothing in common anymore”. Some things I thought we had in common were our three young children, the company we built together over the past twelve years side by side, the home we just built, many shared friends and 15 years together. We are just different people he’s decided after discovering AP #2. I wish I found this site three years ago after DDay #1 when I was devastated. The first time, he begged for forgiveness and claimed it was just meaningless sex with our married employee for over a four month period. I felt the same way as CL wrote- saying it was meaningless was almost worse than having it mean something. He broke my heart, our children’s hearts, tore our extended families apart, put our company at risk of a lawsuit for something meaningless. I worked through the intense pain and did everything possible to save the marriage. Two years later, he ends up having an affair with the married mother of a friend of our young son. She and her family had even gone with us on several family trips together. This time, however, the affair has meaning to him – they have so much in common (tennis, excessive drinking, and a willingness to cheat on their spouses in the most destructive way possible to their children). He summarized his decision to leave with “we are different people.” I guess its true though as I would never have cheated on him, I would never have done all the things he’s done. AP is doing the