Regrets Breaking No Contact with His Cheating Ex-Wife
He regrets breaking no contact with his cheating ex-wife, as it gave her the chance to enumerate his faults over dinner. Or why hopium never pays.
***
Dear Chump Lady,
I have a question about mindfucks.
D-Day was a year ago, divorce 6 months ago. I danced for too long, so finally took no contact seriously a month ago.
My mental state has improved drastically over that time.
A couple of days ago my FW texted me a question that honestly didn’t require an answer, so I didn’t answer. I woke up at 2:00 AM and had a text from her “You didn’t answer me, I was worried. Guess I know why.”
Not being fluent in FW, I replied back “????” The next morning she texted: “I don’t want to talk to you, I rode by your house last night.”
Then it hit me, I bought a new car a few days ago, she rode by and thought I had company. The thought gave me a chuckle. Unfortunately, I called her and told her the car was mine.
She said she wasn’t jealous, but obviously was. I don’t know why, she was seeing another man during our marriage, and pushed for the divorce even though her affair partner dumped her.
Unfortunately, I still have a hopium habit, so we decided to go out to dinner.
During dinner it was all about my faults, she didn’t own up to anything. She even brought up what was I doing for my dry heels. And in the moment, I was going along with it and enjoying my shit sandwich. Dinner just ended up being a blamefest for her.
I got home and asked myself, did I really equate my dry heels with her fucking another man during our marriage? Why do I allow her to mindfuck me like that? Back to no contact.
One Last Time
***
Dear One Last Time,
Don’t beat yourself up. Most of us need another kick in the teeth before we understand no contact. In fact, some of us are wearing dentures.
Just get back on the wagon and stop communicating with her.
No contact with your cheating ex-wife is for YOU. It’s how you end the hopium habit. Every day you’re not feeding her nonsense into your head, puts you one day closer to sanity.
Let me demonstrate.
I woke up at 2:00 AM and had a text from her “You didn’t answer me, I was worried. Guess I know why.”
Not being fluent in FW, I replied back “????”
Don’t reply back. She’s not worried. She wants centrality. If she is worried, let her sit with that discomfort. For eternity. Where she can lose herself in prayer and contemplation of your moisturizing habits.
Then it hit me, I bought a new car a few days ago, she rode by and thought I had company. The thought gave me a chuckle. Unfortunately, I called her and told her the car was mine.
Let her think you have company. FFS, what did she think was going to happen when you divorced her? You would build a shrine to her memory? Live in chastity? Drape yourself over furniture and sob?
No. You re-entered the world WITHOUT HER. Who parks in your driveway is none of her damn business.
Don’t call her.
When you did that, you just stepped back on to the pick me dance floor. Oh! She asked YOU to dance this time! She was jealous! The tables have turned! In your hopium fugue state you couldn’t resist the invitation. RESIST IT.
She said she wasn’t jealous, but obviously was. I don’t know why, she was seeing another man during our marriage, and pushed for the divorce even though her affair partner dumped her.
Ugh. Then this situation is even more dangerous. She’s auditioning you, as she needs a new triangle (rectangle, dodecahedron… I never tire of this line.) But, being a FW, she has to seem like she’s in the power seat, and is considering your worthiness. Did you fix those dry heels yet?
Also, it’s really common for cheaters to feel incensed when their former chumps move on. Whether that’s dating, or taking up hog farming, the fact that you’ve directed your attentions elsewhere is intolerable. She felt entitled to that attention. Just because she didn’t reciprocate it is beside the point (to her anyway). You can’t understand it, because you don’t speak fluent FW.
Dry heels and bagged salad
During dinner it was all about my faults, she didn’t own up to anything. She even brought up what was I doing for my dry heels. And in the moment, I was going along with it and enjoying my shit sandwich. Dinner just ended up being a blamefest for her.
Hey, she CARES. Why else would she enumerate your faults and inquire about the state of your feet? Ugh. I think to someone people this passes for intimacy. If you don’t speak fluent human. But really, she’s just giving you front seat to who she is. It’s not just the cheating, it’s the devaluing. And the stultifying boredom of her company. Don’t you miss that?
As for the blaming, yes. We call that the “bagged salad” excuse here. Why did she cheat? Your feet failed to enchant, Chump. Or you bought the wrong salad greens. Whatever. Cheaters have excuses for why your faults compelled them to fuck strange.
I got home and asked myself, did I really equate my dry heels with her fucking another man during our marriage?
You don’t have to agree with her mindfuckery. The best way to express that disagreement is no contact with your cheating ex-wife.
Why do I allow her to mindfuck me like that?
Habit. Hopium.
Back to no contact
The beautiful thing about bad habits and hopium spells is that they can broken. Get back on the wagon. We made you a seat.
AUTOBIOGRAPHY IN FIVE CHAPTERS
I
I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I fall in.
I am lost … I am hopeless.
It isn’t my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.
II
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I pretend I don’t see it.
I fall in again.
I can’t believe I’m in the same place. But it isn’t my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.
III
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I see it is there.
I still fall in … it’s a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.
IV
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I walk around it.
V
I walk down another street.
– Portia Nelson
Great analogy!
Thanks. I’m not to Chapter 5 yet, spending most of my time in Chapter 4. Still slip back to 3 occasionally. I’m a slow learner, but remembering “Trust that they suck” and “When they show you who they are, believe them” helps.
That was terrific and wise. Definitely a keeper.
I thought maybe that was the Portia who comments here, but see that it was not.
It’s a learning process to be in a relationship. It’s also a learning process to get out of it. Loyalty and commitment (besides that Costco size vat of spackle) was required to learn to stay in it. Compassion and patience with myself, a LOT, has been a requirement of learning to get out and stay out. It’s a process.
I heard it years ago at an Al Anon meeting when I first got into recovery. It came to mind immediately when I read today’s post, so that’s my two cents for today.
❤️
It helps, in early days, to remember that by doing nothing you are doing something.
You now have evidence that it makes your ex uncomfortable. But that is not the ultimate goal. No contact is to preserve your remaining dignity and to move forward in your own life. It is protection from the person who betrayed you and is still taking aim.
“Through inaction, action is achieved”. Tao de Ching, I believe.
No response is a response, is what I tell myself
I had to evaluate why I opened myself up to more diverted blame and abuse even if I no longer was wanting him or needing him. I found that I needed him to be in there somewhere. I wanted a small inkling that he still existed, so that I could more easily trust others and myself. I think thats the hardest thing for chumps to get past. Not knowing if we ever knew them at all. NC definitely heals the mind and heart, but never can resolve the total damage of loving someone that disregards those who love them. With time however, you love yourself again and somehow you feel sorry for them in a different way. You feel sorry for them being such idiots to throw away such a valuable human .
“Not knowing if we ever knew them at all”, that is a great way to put it.
Trauma creates a bond. We chumps are generally decent, loving people that want to love and trust and be loved and be trusted. By our programming we wish to nurture bonds. There’s an equally hard part of “stay away.”
Yes—it’s really easy to feel bad for them, even though it’s maddening. Why do I feel bad for YOU??
This post came at just the right time. My ex-FW (of 27 years and been divorced for over a year) will spam text me nonsensical crazy things, ranging from how much he misses me, cute things about grandkids (charm), then articles on how white men are discriminated against (self pity), and then accusations on how I “gave up” on our family and ruined it (rage). So I’ll block him.
Then a week or so will go by and I’ll feel bad. What if his dad actually dies of cancer? What if something happens to one of the kids (they are all in their 20’s and there are five of them, so one of THEM could tell me if something happens, but I don’t think of that when I’m feeling bad)? He’s the father of my five kids and was my spouse for 27 years!! So I weaken and unblock him.
Then the texts come immediately, which means he must send them every morning just to see if they go through. Usually nice. Then the self-pity. Then the rage. Then it occurs to me that this level of texting is crazy. I hope he won’t decide to run into me in person (thank goodness we live in different parts of a huge city and I can avoid him). I hope he doesn’t traumatize the kids too much (I can tell when he’s tuning up on his text thread with them because the kids who haven’t blocked him themselves will independently text me stuff like, “hey mom…I love you!”
Then I realize that I can’t manage his relationship with his kids. And if his dad dies, that’s not my issue. And if he starts to stalk me in person (instead of just via texting or looking at my LinkedIn profile every week because it’s the only social media I have), there are laws for that. And I divorced him because he’s scary and toxic and a bad human being. So keep. Him. Blocked!!!
And then I read this post. Thank you!!!!
My FW is better at the passive Hoovering. Just maintaining enough of a presence usually. Occasionally its more direct like this, but I couldn’t just leave it alone and I had to engage.
Contact resets the clock. I suspect you probably thought she ‘got it’. The reality is you are the one that doesn’t ‘get it’. This is who she is, was and will always be.
You seem to be afraid she thought you had some one over. Why?
Limbo is a self imposed state. Until you learn to ignore you’ll stay where you’ve put yourself.
Block her on everything. I promise you she’s never going to wake up, have an epiphany and become the woman of your dreams.
Also, I’m a proponent of keeping it real, and tough love. Your comment on yesterdays column, to Diane about when she was on her back… I’ve reread that several times. That fucking image says it all.
Do yourself a favor. Review and apply. This has helped many
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ojgUuCXvlMI&t=1675s&pp=ygUTbm8gbW9yZSBtciBuaWNlIGd1eQ%3D%3D
Learn to ignore or suffer needlessly.
“Block her on everything. I promise you she’s never going to wake up, have an epiphany and become the woman of your dreams.”
This. So much this. When we’re NC I’m good, I know who she is. After I break NC, I can detox pretty quickly, and get back to a good place. But when we engage… I can just see some small glimmer of the person I wanted her to be… and it just throws me completely off. I warn myself against it. I know its coming. And it still happens.
I know I have to go as NC as I can, funny enough I just got back from meet the teacher for our daughter, that FW had to come to. Twenty minutes together, no conversation, so that is a start. Maybe way down the line we can engage, maybe, but right now its not what I need.
If you have a child you have to communicate. However, this can be limited to text/email. You don’t have to talk to her. Your life your rules.
Keep everything separate. Holidays, birthdays, etc. Your X has her time you have yours. Nothing together.
Most waywards pull the let’s be friends game. It’s for her not you. Maybe even do it for the kids even though they didn’t give a damn about the kids as they destroyed the family.
Definition of friend – loyal, honest, trustworthy.
No other woman is going to want an X in the mix.
I agree. And I’ll add—blocking is the big thing! I rarely responded to ex-FW’s texts and made myself “swipe left, don’t read!” for 99% of them. BUT, FWs are a tricky, manipulative bunch and if there is one thing they’re good at, it’s getting a response. Which is why blocking is really the only way. I guess not everyone can do that (ie, with small children), but if someone can, they should. Just not responding only makes them try harder. And they’re good.
She wants you to be her emotional tampon. What do women do with used tampons? They throw them away.
If there is one thing I am FOREVER grateful too is To Tracy,my forever true friend..who came to me in the 🌙 night after I had locked my raving cheater out..who I THOUGHT loved me. I wrote down how he was more worried about himself and his pain than of me and that EVERYTHING was my fault. Everything. When I found Tracy on line, her take on cheating plunged the knife into the chest of my Illusions. I had 2 cheaters 35 years apart, but they both said and did the very same things. I realized how sick I felt and how horrible the words that these two cheaters said and how they acted. NO CONTACT except through lawyers save my brain and more dollars to therapy for bleach, to get that darkness and the lies out of my thoughts. I didn’t need to feel any more broken by listening to destructive words and demeaning actions. So reading Tracy, laughing at my 🧲 magnet to evil people attraction helped me see the light💡. Tracy is my forever friend for repeatedly tell me I would be ok and solving the riddle of two cheaters who did not know how to love..at all. I was just of use. FULL STOP🛑🫸🚦No contact saved my mental health and so did Tracy and now YOU CN!!!
I guess that the hardest part of maintaining “No Contact” is that Chumps are, as a type, generally polite, considerate and empathetic. While it is fairly easy to have the self discipline not to initiate communication with our Cheaters, it is much harder to realise (and act upon) the fact that not every communication from our Cheater requires a response.
It took a while for me to be comfortable with not responding to most of Ex-Mrs LFTT’s emails/texts unless it related to our children and, when a response was required, limiting myself to single word/single sentence responses.
The last communication that I initiated with her was over a year ago to acknowledge the fact that she had had a heart attack and was in hospital. As a side note, I am pleased that she survived; it hasn’t made her any nicer, but she is taking better care of herself, which had been an ongoing matter of concern to our 3 now adult children.
How “Meh” is that?
LFTT
Very meh, congratulations. I look forward to getting there myself
From the timing, I suspect either she’s stalking you or is asking a neighbor for info on you. It appears she knew the car was there, and sent the first pointless question to interrupt you with your visitor and goad you into answering her. (Centrality!) When you didn’t respond, I suspect she checked for the car by driving by or asking the neighbor.
If you checked your phone before you went to sleep, and woke at 2 am to find her second text, that lets you know when she or a neighbor were spying on you–and if a neighbor is checking out and reporting the vehicles in your driveway, that IS spying. And if she’s driving by your house late at night to check if you have visitors, she is stalking you. Going out to dinner could be part of her image management or defense strategy if called out for driving by–“Why was I near his house? We wtill see each other, even went out to dinner recently.”
Do NOT delete these text messages. You may need them if she escalates. Do NOT expect her to be reasonable.
Although I immediately changed the home security system code, I didn’t realize that my ex still had remote access to the security system cameras, and he used them to monitor who went in and out of the house. He terrorized our middle-schooler with secret calls stating that he knew when so-and-so came to the house, when we came and left, and threatening our lives. I found out what was happening, cut off his camera access and reported to police. We also noticed a succession of cars parking directly accross the street from my house, even though there are no other homes or businesses on that block or the next one. The drivers never got out, and if anyione approached them, including police, they’d swiftly drive away. The craziness escalated, so I was able to get sole custody with no contact. The mystery parkers and harrassment finally stopped, around the time he went into health faciltiies.
Everyone separating from a cheater should consider and prepare for the possibility of further abuse via harrassment, spying and interference.
Agree with this. She didn’t randomly go by his house. I bet she does it all the time to see if he’s with somebody.
I think when you are so used to getting abused and gaslit there is that part of your brain that tries to find the reality of the situation. Too many of us blame ourselves because of that-we trusted these “people”(note the quote-y marks) implicitly and were trained that their version of the truth was reality. We’re programmed to believe by the people that betrayed us that it was our fault.
So it sounds like this was a (possibly much needed) reality check.
The presented reality here? She sucks. Hard. And you were right to divorce her and have been right to stay away as a result. This is the bullet you are continuing to dodge.
There wasn’t any standard of accountability on her part. Just more justification for what she did. And the laundry list of reasons why she thinks that YOU suck(you don’t by the way-I love your posts!)
I don’t know about you-if somebody stoically repeats why it was ok for them to commit atrocities they are not worth one’s time.
I am sorry that you were probably re-traumatized(at least in part.) You deserve better. And thank you for sharing! This is going to help me stay better away when mine tries coming back around.
I am feeling like situations like this serve as warnings for “what you might be getting yourself into.” I recently had a (failed) reconnection with an old friend that reminded me why I was very comfortable with the distance that had been created over the years. Providence’s way of informing oneself “this is not going to go the way you think it is.”
I really like our fearless leader’s recent statements on this: let them sit with the discomfort. In this situation it’s clear that she was trying to both further justify the horrible things that she did(I didn’t get “Cracked heels” on the “why you make me unhappy list” but I know the feeling). And that she is trying to keep hooks in for her own gratification.
Our commitments to these “people” ended at the point of betrayal. All pacts and promises annulled. They made that choice at the point of betrayal.
The divoce was so bad that I got that it was a case of “goodbye forever” once the legal part was done. He lives in another state so that helps. I went no contact during the divorce, as did our college kids. Then I agreed to email-only during closeout which was painful but manageable. I kept it all business, which he was unhappy about, but I didn’t care.
Gradually, the email vomit dropped off, and it’s been awhile since I heard from him. As my younger attorney said, I became a hard target. Even if my ex emailed or texted now, I’d ignore it. Our kids remained no contact (their choice), and he gave up on them.
Same old, same old, and I am over-and-done.
They picked you at outset because you were the right kind of susceptible to their manipulations: You look inward when you encounter a problem; you count your faults. You have empathy to spare. Maybe a bit of codependency. You have a standard where you try to do right by people, and you were once programmed to FEEL BAD when others accuse you of being the problem. And that’s why they picked you: Because they can work with that. They can work you over, with that.
Block them, and they can’t work you over anymore. It’s self-preservation. Those still co-parenting under-18 kids are exempt from these thoughts, with my great sympathy, but for me, No Contact requires more than “just don’t respond.” They are only persisting because they crave the high of a tug on the fishing line. They crave our weakness.
VH mentioned Al Anon; I don’t participate but some of their literature can help folks (like me) raised with an overdeveloped sense of responsibility. However, their higher-power advice is challenging for me. One school of thought says just define this for yourself as good, orderly direction. But that doesn’t empower me. So i came up with my own definition, based on how I approach relationships now vs. back when I was so naive & exploited: guarded, observant decency.
Guarded: Remaining aware at all times that FWs are full of trickery (to paraphrase part of my favorite philosophy, The Desiderata).
Observant: I pay close attention to how others treat me. I write it down. I refer back to it. Has this person not reliably treated me with decency, fairness, kindness, and yet won’t leave me alone? If so, then they’re not safe for me.
Decency: Fair-minded good will. My natural set-point. I am a responsive person, by nature. That’s why this one comes last. Nowadays, only those relationships that pass the first two criteria get the Golden Rule from me. I feel zero obligation to FWs. Not gonna risk my peace for them. Even if FW were my only link to another person I care about (unlikely), my higher power says then that’s the way it has to be.
Give yourself some grace, it happens, it’s a process. For me, I have to engage in some contact, but make it as minimal as possible, if the statement or question is not relevant, I ignore it. If she engages in manipulative language, I call it out through a question. It shuts her down.
Thanks everyone. Reading this everyday definitely helps keep me sane. The first few months I was just in shock, and the next few months I was Dancing like crazy. A year of separation, and having time to focus on her behavior, I am in a much better place. I’m much better at regulating the balance between my emotional extremes, where I can get too angry at her, or too down on myself.
It’s weird that we stopped missing the people we couldn’t live without, huh? It’s like those people that take the picture of themselves every day. We just don’t notice certain things(good and bad) if we are looking every day.
Dang, your story sounds so much like mine. She had the affair, got dumped by AP, then decided she needed a divorce anyway while I was still trying to “fix” things. Still working through divorce details, so unfortunately I can’t go no contact yet. And even once it’s final, we have two young kids with complicated after school activity schedules, so “no” contact will never be possible.
It sounds so hard. So many times every day I find myself almost sharing some link or complaining about something at work. I can’t stop wondering if this would be easier, at least for my kids, if I stay friends with her. Have dinner together as a family every now and then, take the kids to a baseball game. We all need these kids of stories to remind ourselves why no contact is the only sensible way to go.
Experienced chumps will tell you that the friendsy routine after divorcing abusers always backfires and it’s better to gray rock until kids are 18, then go full NC.
It’s partly because healing from abuse is much more difficult while still in the orbit of abusers so minimizing contact can speed the road to “meh” and recovery. But there are other tactical considerations as well. For instance, if your ex is like every cheater on the planet, she’ll use the display of “friendship” as proof that you not only accept but agree with the lies she told everyone (including potentially your kids and coworkers) about how you drove her to cheat and deserved to be cheated on. And, if she’s like every cheater on the planet, some of those lies may be so blood curdling– either quasi-criminal or catastrophically humiliating or both– that you really wouldn’t want to tacitly validate them with a show of “unity.” The only way to invalidate the blameshifting and demonstrate that you disagree with it is to keep your distance from her.
Also heed the warnings of other male chumps that, when she-FWs aren’t happy with something their chumps are doing (like divorcing them in the first place or later not adjusting support payments upon command), they may suddenly fabricate allegations of violence. At the very least they may try to dredge a little drama, centrality and kibble by telling their next mark that their ex still “lusts” for and even stalks them. If you suddenly find neighbors pulling their kids out of your path, you’ll know the disordered FW spin is headed in that direction.
Anyway, it’s much harder for FWs to play princess in the tower beset by evil ogres or concoct false allegations when you’re never around unless required for kid exchange and never even text them back except in matters related to children.
You need this info too
You will hear you must talk, you must do this, that together for the kids.
Nope, it’s bullshit.
Your kids learn most from parent’s. Would you teach your kids to hang out with low class scum? Let someone shit on them and go back for more?
The other thing you’ll hear is lie to your kids. Worst thing you can do. Tell your kids the truth in a sanitized way. Mommy had a a boyfriend we can’t be married anymore. Kids aren’t stupid. Keeping them in the dark just creates anxiety. They can deal with a known better than an unknown.
You don’t need your X wife’s permission.
Do you want a life free of her or keep yourself bound. This is your life. It’s short and you only get one.
Doormats get walked on.
“So many times every day I find myself almost sharing some link or complaining about something at work. I can’t stop wondering if this would be easier, at least for my kids, if I stay friends with her. Have dinner together as a family every now and then, take the kids to a baseball game.”
I still struggle with this often. I tell myself, even though she gave up on us, I “owe” it to our 30 years together to be the bigger person and “stay friends”. She would definitely like that. For the image management, and as long as it was a one sided friendship. I tell myself, that she lost the opportunity to be my friend when she fired me from being her husband. As long as I stay NC, I’m good. So I just have to commit to that, even though it is still hard.
You will hear you must talk, you must do this, that together for the kids.
Nope, it’s bullshit.
Your kids learn most from parent’s. Would you teach your kids to hang out with low lass scum? Let someone shit on them and go back for more?
The other thing you’ll hear is lie to your kids. Worst thing you can do. Tell your kids the truth in a sanitized way. Mommy had a a boyfriend we can’t be married anymore. Kids aren’t stupid. Keeping them in the dark just creates anxiety. They can deal with a known better than an unknown.
You don’t need your X wife’s permission.
Do you want a life free of her or keep yourself bound. This is your life. It’s short and you only get one.
Doormats get walked on.
One Last Time – well, I guess your name says it all….you needed “One Last Time” (hopefully) to cement in your mind how toxic and abusive she is and that this is never going to work out and you need to stay NO CONTACT. If it’s the “Next to Last Time”, then you have some problems with yourself that you have to figure out. Then you are doing this to yourself and not learning the lesson – she’s an abusive narc, she’s always going to blame you, and she’s always going to make you anxious and upset. It’s either that you still have some dim hope she’s gonna change, or she has you conditioned to respond to her in the same way Pavlov handled dogs. You’re not a dog. Break conditioning.
The reason she is “jealous” is because she is no longer the center of your world and she feared someone else might have usurped her crown. She wants attention even if it’s negative attention. These narcs are like barnacles. The only way through is NO CONTACT, don’t give her any more kibbles. You need to be more disciplined with yourself.
Another point to consider about yourself in general – are you the type of person who tends to rush to “help” others or do what they want? Maybe it’s a general conditioning on your part to always be good or kind or helpful or empathetic, at cost to yourself. It might just be her, but you might consider that you do this generally and it’s not good for you if you do.
Ah, disordered thinking and the belief that they must be the center of your world. A local coach that I saw for about a year after my ex left suggested that I had a husband-centered world, and that’s never healthy. Thankfully, I chose a strong, strategic attorney who beat that back in the divorce proceedings. My STBX did NOT get the privilege of driving the divorce, nope.
One Last Time’s ex sounds like the worst kind of male FW though one with boobs. But it’s been my impression that a lot of she-FWs and even a lot of female mate poachers are unusually “dominance-oriented.” That thing of driving by One Last Time’s house (likely not by coincidence) and having the added temerity of interrogating him about it directly smack of disordered-dude-level territoriality and harem-guarding.
Anyone who’s seen a mama bear in action knows average women can be territorial. But I think it’s fair to say that there’s a statistical gender skew in how this is generally expressed and I’m getting the impression that she-FWs tend to display more guy-like aggression in certain ways. One Last Time’s ex even sounds downright batterer-ish which brings up some things I’ve been mulling over for the past few years regarding the “patriarchal model for domestic abuse” so… philosophical rambling alert.
The patriarchal model for DV– the idea that it’s largely fueled by male entitlement and dominance which demands female subservience and inferiority– made a lot of sense when I began working as an advocate for DV survivors. Obviously statistics support the idea that violent abuse is overwhelmingly male on female with something like 85% of severe injuries happening to women at the hands of men and domestic murder being the leading cause of death among pregnant women. Because there’s a high rate of domestic violence within the gay community, there can be a muddling of statistics regarding male victims of assault and domestic murder that Red Pill types have latched onto as “proof” that women are nearly as lethal as men but any closer look at cases and numbers easily dispels the claim. The reason domestic killers like Jodi Arias get so much media and public attention is because they’re not typical.
But once you get into the issue of subviolent emotional abuse and coercive control which I think are factors in most cases of infidelity, there’s a statistical shift. It’s still not close to fifty-fifty but anyone who dealt with mean girls in seventh grade knows that some women can be sadistic psychological bullies and aggressively power-oriented. But from my own personal observations of mean girls in seventh grade and dealing with some spectacularly awful women from the time I worked in the media industry, I’m still convinced there’s a theme of “patriarchy” underlying it because shitty women and she-FWs are almost invariably not only “handmaidens” of patriarchy but aggressive enforcers of it.
Like the #MeToo movement showed, I saw a lot of harassment, fuckwittery and worse going on in that industry which, though overwhelmingly driven by men, also included a lot of women mate-poaching and/or cheating as career strategies. And one of the first things I learned as an intern was to steer clear of chronic sidechicks and she-cheaters because, even if this type gave lip service to feminism when it suited them, they’re never friends to other women. For instance, never expect a woman like this to back up another woman in fighting genuine sexual harassment because that type will only use the situation to court favor with men in power and will throw other women under the bus.
In general I noticed that when (sometimes married) female coworkers began sleeping with a male superiors, they’d start bossing around peers as if wearing the boss’s strap-on dick. I thought that was interesting. It’s like they weren’t solely motivated to curry favor and hitch a ride on coattails but seemed also driven to emulate the worst patriarchal style of dominance and aggression.
Not everyone– female nor male– who ascends to leadership positions will use those kinds of bullying tactics. Organizational psychologists like Stanford’s Robert Sutton even argue that it’s the least optimal form of management. Yet I noticed female FWs seem naturally drawn to the bully model. But just as interesting is that the disrespect wasn’t only aimed at other women but also sometimes men. In fact, this type seems to often have a special contempt for actually decent men. Part of it may be that decent men aren’t particularly useful to someone climbing the ladder on dick-rungs but I also got the feeling that the contempt goes deeper than this. This was pretty clear in the case of workplace she-cheaters who were sometimes betraying decent good providers to bang some knuckle-dragging goon with status. Or not even a goon with status but some knuckle-dragging copy boy goon. Sort of like prison groupies, FWitty women appear to often be in thrall to the nastiest apes in the room and seem to subscribe to the “nice guys finish last” principle. Like all bullies, it’s as if, in their world view, anyone lacking killer capacity will be killed and they prefer to be on the winning side.
Anyway, 1001 philosophical thoughts. This is so far how I’ve been able to reconcile the patriarchal model of abuse with the phenomenon of she-cheaters, at least a bit. Even if many try to cop feminism as an alibi for cheating, I think this is as lame, offensive, incorrect and misleading as cheaters copping “polyamory” pleas or most of the other garbage excuses abusers make to abuse. I suspect most she-FWs are blowing the patriarchy in more ways than one– in terms of who they cheat with, who they screw over and the bullying way they do it.
I always appreciate your insights based on extensive real world experience and study.
Thank you kindly. When you say “extensive” I have to laugh because it sounds like a euphemism for “nonstop shitstorm” which about sums up the pre-#MeToo media and entertainment industry. Weinstein was just the tip of the iceberg but certainly left a trail of bleeding bodies in his wake. I met so many– both male and female– even though I never had the honor of working with the warthog from hell.
I think having that shitstorm “field training” makes understanding related social science a bit easier but I don’t think of it as a “scientific” pursuit so much as a political one. That industry was/is like a lab model of an undemocratic feudal state exposing what happens to human behavior when too much power is concentrated in too few hands. Basically everyone devolves back into chimps.
In light of how democracy is wobbling all over the world these days and power and wealth gaps even in first world countries have become worse than in medieval times, I feel a strong urge to do a Chicken Little but instead of screaming “The sky is falling” I want to shout “The monkeys are coming!”
Wow. Generalize much. As a guy chump, I think this is a load of garbage.
Having shitty character isn’t a male or female thing. It’s something humans, across races and genders, have or don’t have.
Not sure what bit you object to but I admit I could have been clearer about my definition of “patriarchy.” Believe me there are many different competing definitions. I borrow a lot from the work of primatologist Richard Wrangham who did field research of chimps in Gombe with Jane Goodall for several decades. Wrangham concluded that human patriarchy almost perfectly reflects chimp social organization which, if grossly simplified, is defined by the rule of a minority of ultra-violent, ultra-aggressive alphas while the rest– both male and female alike– are left groveling for amnesty and mostly getting fucked in the process.
It’s basically the model for totalitarianism and, not surprisingly, several of Wrangham’s books have political subtexts.
But I should add that, if you’re just some Andrew Tate redpiller trying to dispute established statistics that men are statistically and historically more likely to commit violent domestic assault/murder, I don’t really know what to say other than get a library card and do some reading. Or go yell at hormonal effects on evolution and human history.
“Statistically more likely” is just math and doesn’t mean “all men.” In fact, one of the reasons that “kill training” was introduced during the Vietnam war was because barely 40% of US military would even fire their weapons in battle during WWII– which suggests more men are “lovers than fighters.”
But it’s that Clockwork Orange violent minority that all of us have to worry about– including men. Particularly because the historically consistent male-on-male murder rate is eight times that of male-on-female murder.
Anyway, if I were to generalize at all, I’d probably be warning men that they have the biggest stakes (and statistical risks) in terms of combating “patriarchal” aggression.
I finally figured out how to comment! I really appreciate all the stats you bring here and your comments. And yes, no contact. It took me longer than it should have. But it is THE most important step IMO. It’s your start. Thank God my children were grown.
Better dry heels than round heels.
I envy your position with FW being divorced from you and away from you. Are there any kids? Is there any reason not to block her?
Klootzak is still in my house. I filed in October 2023 and he refuses to leave. It’s his way of remaining central. And to avoid putting my child through hell with psychological testing, a GAL, and who knows what else, I’m sitting tight waiting for trial. And anything I hear from klootzak that is not to do with our child, I save up in my mind. I save until I can drive down the street and from a block away, yell to myself, “THIS FUCKING GUY!” But to his face? Zero response. I am not “doing” gray rock; I AM the gray rock.
There comes a time where you have to remind yourself that, as CL says, she fired you from the job of giving a shit what she thinks. Whose car is in your driveway? Why aren’t you responding to her texts? Why won’t you moisturize your heels? She feels ENTITLED for you to answer her. No contact isn’t to hurt her; it gives you peace and keeps her from getting the high off feeling like she is the boss of you.
I wish you much mightiness going forward. Unless there are kids, block her! If there ARE kids? Force her onto a parenting app to communicate about them but keep her out of your text. Check the parenting app once per day for any updates and keep it brief and about the kids. She has no right to access to you. Get back on the wagon and give yourself the peace of no contact.
2 kids, one grown and one in middle school, so I have a few more years of this. In many ways I know I’m lucky, she just wanted out, so the divorce was quick and I guess as painless as a divorce can be.
I noticed my FW would text various women in his life, colleagues, friends, schoolmates ect, here and there. He did this to see if they still responded, to see if they were still on his fishing line. Over the years it would be different women in the rotation who would come and go. Its about the attention for sure, but also make sure they were still responding. He liked to check in on his harem. They had no idea they were in his harem. He didn’t fuck all the women in his harem. But Im sure they would fuck him if he had tried. He came across as charming, funny, attentive, intelligent, handsome, handy. The perfect man, they clicked with him and if it werent for his pesky wife they would be with him. Obviously, not every women fell for his act. Those that didnt would not be in the harem or move on. FW like to know they still got it, players gotta play. Its liberating when you really just dont care anymore, thats meh. You dont respond to them because you dont care. I hope you get to that place eventually.
With apologies to Monty Python — I couldn’t let the “dry heels” line pass without coming up with this . . .
I’m a narcissist and I’m OK
I nag all night and I hound all day
(She’s a narcissist and she’s OK
She nags all night and she hounds all day)
I self-obsess, I poke and prod
I have a ton of gall
I like to break No Contact
And drive him up the wall
(She’s self-obsessed, she pokes and prods
She has a ton of gall
She likes to break No Contact
And drives him up the wall
She’s a narcissist and she’s OK
She nags all night and she hounds all day)
I self-obsess, I bug my chump
I text him at all hours
I monitor his driveway
And keep tabs on his cars
(She’s self-obsessed, she bugs her chump
She texts him at all hours
She monitors his driveway
And keeps tabs on his cars
She’s a narcissist and she’s OK
She nags all night and she hounds all day)
I self-obsess, I hate dry heels
I can’t just let him be
It’s central to my nature
I need centrality
(She’s self-obsessed, she hates dry heels . . . )
HellofAChump spoke wisely when writing, “Also heed the warnings of other male chumps that, when she-FWs aren’t happy with something their chumps are doing… they may suddenly fabricate allegations of violence… If you suddenly find neighbors pulling their kids out of your path, you’ll know the disordered FW spin is headed in that direction.”
While I was recovering from a head injury because he literally beat me unconscious on discovery of his financial abuse, my ex spun the story that I was violent, waving a gun around and theatening people, so they should stay away. Later, in the space of a few hours, he made three reports (to his therapist, police, and CPS) that I had beaten our tween black and blue. They came and checked us out, terrifying Tween in the proccess. Tween asked an adult friend who ran parenting programs to come over for support, then called ex to tell ex to leave us alone. Ex immediately called police again, plus our next-door neighbor, to report I was beating Tween right then. They showed up to find us still on the porch with the adult friend.
What triggered this? A week earler, he met a woman half his age, love-bombed her, and on the fourth date, took her out for her birthday and proposed. She turned him down, and hours later, he made the calls.
BTW, he had not seen tween for months. And I wasn’t stalking him–he kept putting all his dates into MY electronic calendar, naming the women and the expensive resorts where he was wining and dining them. He couldn’t see my calendar, but he made sure I could see his. Unfortunately, the mediator would not consider this a waste of marital assetsnor, and also refused tio consider the tens of thousands of doillars I had documented that he had sent to the romance scammer over a month, even though I had Western Union wire recitpts, records of banbk transfers, credit card payments, and emails documenting literally hundreds of gift cards he sent the scammer.
What a disgrace of a human being – I’m very sorry you had to experience this 😢
Dry heels guy: treat yourself to a pedicure. Depending on your state they’ll shave that shiz off like parmesan cheese. Then wear flip flops the next time you’re forced to see FW.
WHY is it so hard to see my ex in person now? BECAUSE HE TRAUMATIZED ME. And as an empath it sets me back to square one. I will never be his “friend”. My recovery is nowhere near strong enough to overcome the dysfunctional need I have to make HIM feel better. He slowly poisoned my mind to disempower myself, it still happens, even now, when I know intellectually that he SUCKS. No contact is the only way I will ever recover.
That sounds so much like me. Best of luck to you on your healing.
If you don’t have kids, the fact that your FW can text and call you is like a drunk storing a a bottle of Grey Goose Vodka on the kitchen island or table. Block on all devices and all social media platforms. Put DO NOT TEXT, CALL OR PICKUP as the contact name.
If you have kids, choose a communication app and stick to it. Do ordinary contact by email. Let any calls go to voicemail. Ignore any texts that are not actual business, defined as info about a change in pickup or kiddo condition. Never, ever respond without a 48 hour wait.
You can’t be no contact and leave the FW sewer pipe open.