Any Dating PTSD?

I started seeing a man and let me tell you, I was always on the verge of ending things with him right out of the gate, I was so hyper vigilant to not get involved in another FW. I still see a therapist (to help me process not only having left the FW due to cheating, but also to process long-term emotional, psychological, and even physical abuse—the cheating was just the tip of the iceberg with this guy and ironically, the straw that finally knocked some sense into me. I suspect I will be in therapy for awhile—I can’t recommend it enough if possible for anyone navigating not only leaving a FW, but for processing afterwards) and she helped me to recognize that I didn’t want to just end things at the slightest worry—I needed to learn to trust myself and how I felt. And if I didn’t feel right or happy or good about things, then that was the important thing—not constant worry about him eventually cheating on me. I admit I still worry about it, but right now, we are taking things really slow and just enjoying one another (although we are mutually exclusive), which is where I can be right now.

In addition to navigating the cheating, I also have even more PTSD due to other abuse (which I feel is worth mentioning on here because it seems to me that a lot of cheaters are also abusive in other ways). For example, my ex used to wake me up several times a week, raging because I moved too much, or snored, or “was looking at him, breathing” and made him wake up, etc. It took me weeks after I left him to appreciate that I was safe, no one would wake me up, etc. So, the first time I shared a bed with this new man, I had all kinds of triggers. This new man actually knows about the history of my ex now and he had to assure me on multiple occasions that he would never be upset if woke him up (and I told myself, also, that if he did get upset with me, I WOULD NOW LEAVE, which was so empowering for me to tell myself) and we’ve been seeing each other over a year and he has never even raised his voice once, nor has he done anything even slightly mean or disrespectful. I’m also still working on honoring my own needs, some of which I am not even aware of. Several weeks ago, his air conditioning was up pretty high (I live in Texas—Tracy isn’t kidding about the heat) and I was cold. He saw me looking cold and said, “Are you cold?” And I realized I was cold and hadn’t wanted (subconsciously) to tell him that I was cold and he should turn down the AC. He said, “Just tell me if you’re cold! I don’t want you to be cold.” But it didn’t even cross my MIND to tell him I was cold because for basically my entire adult life, my needs didn’t even blip on the radar. I know that sounds really bad, but I’ve improved a ton. I actually have to scan how I’m feeling on a regular basis so I can be more aware of my emotions, how I’m feeling, etc (by the way, this is only in my private life. At work, I’m totally different. It’s so strange). I’m going on a lot, but 27 years of dealing with the FW does leave scars (and it’s why I’m in therapy and will continue to be—that’s a long time to have dealt with that).

This is a good question.

I actually have a diagnosis of CPTSD. I had been seeing therapists and had originally been told it was GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, but I had kept saying “I didn’t used to be like this” and the anxiety and panic attacks didn’t start until after a very abusive relationship. I wasn’t anxious about everything, and I wasn’t afraid of all men. It was very specific behaviors from men I was trying to have a relationship with. I had a new therapist who told me the specificity of my symptoms sounded a lot more like PTSD than generalized anxiety.

She told me the difference between GAD and PTSD is that specificity. GAD usually is anxiety about the future, worst case scenarios that haven’t happened, and things that are very unlikely to happen, and the triggers can be anything. Sometimes it’s unknown what the triggers are and panic just has random onset.

PTSD is fear of the past repeating itself. It’s useless to ask someone with PTSD “what’s the worst that can happen?” because the worst has already happened. Episodes are triggered by situations that mimic the original trauma. For military vets, it can be the sound of fireworks. For someone who has been through abuse, it can be a behavior pattern. For me, it was the silent treatment. My abuser would use it as a manipulation tool and as punishment. A tirade would always follow periods of silence, and I would never know how long the silence was going to last or what he was even mad about. Often it was something he’d made up. Believe me this carried into my other relationships. Periods of silence or unanswered text messages would give me massive panic attacks.

It has been years, and a lot of therapy, and I am on antidepressant medication (take it if you need it!) And I have a partner who understands and listens to me and has made a great effort to be a partner. He’s never made me panic over silence. They’re out there. It takes time.

Official PTSD diagnosis here – and blessed to have had a therapist who tackled this particular issue head-on, advising me that new relationships would never be the same as they were before FW, and helping me to frame a new strategy for feeling safe, which included taking things slowly, being willing to walk away at the first red flag (that was hard the first time, but so empowering), and even “investigating” the person online in detail before things went too far.
The other thing she helped me with was, in my opinion, far more important: how to date myself. Going out alone was hard at first, but I have come to enjoy it. I go to concerts, movies, restaurants, festivals, and even travel overseas on my own, and I love it; there’s always someone around to talk to if I choose, or blessed solitude and focus if I would rather. And for my last birthday (64) I gifted myself a new battery operated boyfriend, who always does just what I want, and doesn’t snore afterwards. 😉

I’ve been with a new partner for over two years now, but the trauma of my 35-year abusive relationship bubbles up every once in a while. We can be happy in our new lives, but there’s a pain that persists. I find it hard to explain.

When a friend recently made the comment that you (Spinach) are “good now,” I knew she meant well, but I felt it discounted the trauma of my mirage (thanks, VH). To me, there’s a hint of “the ends justify the means.” Yeah, you were abused and betrayed, but hey, look at you now! You’re with someone who was “meant to be.” I mostly agree, but at the same time, it hits an off chord with me.

Perhaps this is an unfair comparison, but if someone loses a child and manages to give birth to another, it doesn’t mean they will stop feeling the pain of the terrible loss.

I hope some of you understand what I mean. If so, you can probably articulate it better.

Because my FW used dating sites to meet some of his hook ups and his final OW I was sure they were not for me. Two years post divorce and after much therapy, a good girlfriend talked me into going online. I was naturally hesitant as even commercials for Match gave me anxiety. I knew that she had met and married a great guy from Eharmony. So I decided to give it a shot. I also chose a few other sites(not Match) to place my profile. This was 2013 so just on my laptop, not phone. I went on many first dates, a few got as far as five dates over the course of a few months. It felt like having a second job, messaging and vetting. A few month in I messaged a man who lived across the country from me because his profile was filled with commonality and kindness. A week later, I messaged him again because honestly I had forgotten I had messaged him already. He responded (he thought I was really into him as I had messaged twice). We messaged for awhile, then texted, then talked on the phone for hours. Come to find out we had many connections including that he was best friends with my cousin in grad school. We dated long distance for two years, meeting in person every four to six weeks. I was very honest with him about what I had been through with my FW. He was appalled that any man would behave so dishonorably. We married in 2015 and I have never once felt unsafe emotionally with him. Do I ever get triggered? Yes, but not by my husband. There are good men and women out there.

For what it’s worth, here’s my 2 cents. When I got left by cheater FW asshat, I started seeing a therapist just a few weeks later (on the recommendation of my attorney). I saw the therapist every week for over a year and we worked on helping me through the divorce and the trauma. At about the year mark, I was fully divorced and the therapist recommended that I just start dating (using Bumble if I wanted to). She just wanted me to see that I was ok. I felt broken and ugly and that no one would want a 45 year old woman with an elementary school-aged child. She and a couple of friends told me to just go out on dates with zero expectations.

So I did. I went out with about 5 different men (I chose JDate because I’m Jewish and FW wasn’t…so I figured I’d try to at least to find commonality in religion & culture this time). And my friends and therapist were right… it was definitely an ego boost. I felt better about myself. I met some nice men. No one was super scary (one admitted to being a FW in his past…so that was an easy NO …. another started writing crazy texts on my phone, so I booted him instantly too). But mostly it was fun and no strings dates (I didn’t even do more than kiss a couple of them after a few dates). But then I found one out of those 5…and we’ve been together now 7 years! It’s imperfect. We both have past issues. And I got another therapist that I stayed with for 4 years to work on my PTSD (that was not just from the DDay — I discovered past things that were affecting me) and other issues. And guess what? He has a therapist too.

I think therapy is important to deal with all of this. I was very reactive to everything after DDay …I had so many triggers and anxiety attacks and fears that would not stop even after my divorce and then starting s relationship. I knew I had more work to do. If you still have a ton of fear and reactivity — you might want to think about getting more support. For me, EMDR was not so good. It shook stuff up to much in my brain and I’d have crazy flashbacks. So I did gentler things and meditated more too. So even if you don’t want to date anymore — that’s fine. But consider more therapy?

Wow did this post stir up a lot of thoughts so please forgive the length of this. I have a different potential take. Maybe FKA’s PTSD reaction pre-and-post breakup with the partner of 8 months weren’t just “baggage” based on negative past experience but new and far more finely calibrated intuitions about that new guy?

Maybe the gut instinct wasn’t that this guy was a dangerous creep but perhaps a signal that he wasn’t quite good or decent enough to be truly on par with someone whose bar for character had been (wisely and rightly) raised by traumatic experience. But I’d still probably argue that if the reactions to this last guy felt like “trauma flashbacks,” there’s a chance the guy was a covert “sleeper” abuser. Without seeing the actual evidence of this, FKA could be left feeling confused or doubting her feelings. I’m bringing this up because, if I were to oversimplify the reason I ended up married to a FW for more than 20 years, it was because I ascribed certain initial flutters of negative intuition about him to lingering “PTSD” from the workplace stalker I’d prosecuted just before I met FW.

As it happens, the negative intuitions I’d had about FW were spot on. But there were several things that prevented me from trusting those intuitions, mainly, of course, that he, like a lot of coercively controlling people, talked a great game and could mirror like a pro for extended lengths of time. Secondly, there was a very pervasive victim-disparaging cultural message at the time that victims are damaged goods and necessarily “clouded by trauma” and, by extension, it’s not possible survivors have gained certain super powers or value from traumatic experiences like amped-up more accurate intuition. Another point of confusion is that I wasn’t raised religious and grew up in a hyper-rationalist culture so I really had no framework to understand my newly amped-up intuitions and that they might be an extreme early warning system based on intangible cues and coming in forms like weird dreams or body sensations. The flashes were so uncanny they were almost on the level of magical realism. Back then, those feelings would mostly be contextualized as “religious visions” or psychic network nonsense. In other words, the almost “magic” quality of my new intuitive superpower clashed with modern, run-of-the-mill rationalist concepts of how the mind works and I risked sounding nuts if I tried to explain to anyone what I was feeling and sensing. Consequently, when I continued PTSD therapy during the first year of marriage, I kept ascribing a lot of the bad “uh oh” feelings I was having towards FW to “echoes of the past.” The therapist, as well-meaning as he was, missed a chance to help me consider that the feelings I had were actually based on the present.

Then there was the fact that, at that time, the bar for domestic abuse was set in hell– violence, broken bones, attempted murder– and I wasn’t getting “violent” vibes from FW so what was I complaining about? There was little understanding of coercive control back then. And finally ,there’s the infamous “protection racket” effect for people emerging from violent experience. Statistically, women (in particular) who’ve been victimized once face a 50% risk of falling prey to another abuser because the increased fear of being alone and the need for a body guard make them sitting ducks for someone playing “rescuer”– the pose that the worst abusers always take. The latter risk is intensified by the fact that a lot of “nice guys” (and “nice people” in general) really aren’t nice enough and tend to have a biased view of women who’ve had traumatic experience as “damaged goods” or “having too much mileage.” Nice-but-not-nice-enough people might react somewhat squeamishly if a woman opened up about previous violent experience and also might be rattled by a survivor’s increased sensitivity to issues of gender equity and social justice. This gives an advantage to faux-ally types whose mirroring and faked empathy can shine in comparison to your average Joe who hasn’t quite worked out his own stance on patriarchal values, has led a pretty sheltered life himself and, rather than rising to the occasion, might dismiss a survivor’s raised bar as “having issues.”

I’ve learned a lot and my perspective and world view have changed since then. For one, I’ve had all kind of experiences that have proven my amped-up intuitions following past violent experience are dead accurate in many cases. For example, without knowing how I knew, once when I walked into a meditation center, I took one look at the framed photo of the famous new age meditation guru and knew the guy was a serial pedophile. Ten years later, he was in all the headlines for raping countless children. Another time I wrote down the license plate of some older white guy who was hanging around a children’s softball game in the park. I’ve never been a “Karen” who flips out in suspicion over random bystanders. The guy just looked “wrong” and my autonomic nervous system went slightly haywire. Two months later, I read a report in the paper of an attempted child abduction describing exactly the same guy I’d seen, even wearing exactly the same clothes. I called police and said “For what it’s worth…” and offered the plate number. I read later that he was captured and convicted based on victims’ ID and other evidence. I never testified because there was nothing I could testify to. Another time, while pregnant, I was racked with creepy feelings about a particular boss who, 12 years later, was in international headlines for allegedly raping a dozen women. I felt exonerated for quitting that job.

In all the years since I was stalked and assaulted and escaped attempted rape, I can’t remember a single instance when I had that heart-pounding, sweaty-palmed, teeth-gritting, serial-bad-dream reaction to some benign and innocent person. At most the traumatic experience made me a little shy or nervous or discerning when meeting new people but nothing even close to “acid-flashback” level. That’s because if there was any “flashback,” it was remembering a certain psychic/intangible “smell” because I was being currently reminded of it by someone who had a similar “smell,” that’s all. My nervous system simply kicked in to remind me in no uncertain terms what the smell meant: “Danger, danger.”

It took a long time to trust those flashes but I eventually started to and I can point to times that reaction probably saved my kids in certain ways. But it was kind of like having a third arm at first. A third arm might be able to bench press a thousand pounds but off-the-rack clothes don’t fit and you feel like a freak at cocktail parties. But the more those “flashes” of intuition proved accurate, the more I started getting mad at all the disinformation and spin that made me second guess this incredibly valuable radar system. I learned to say “screw the hyper-rationalists”. Chris Hedges book, “When Atheism Becomes Religion,” isn’t a pan of atheism or a plug of theism but about the new rationalist cult of “fundamentalist scientism” (which, since Hedges wrote the book, has emerged as a monetized, all-purpose front group for multiple industries like arms, oil, chemical, etc.) which, for one thing, disparages and denies the existence of human intuition. Hedges’ main point is that our conscious minds aren’t smart enough to fully understand how our own brains and psyches work. Hedges doesn’t mention the “quantum brain” theory of Roger Penrose (Nobel laureate in physics) but the argument is along the same lines. Sometimes we know and sense things without rational evidence and, rather than dismissing those flashes out of hand, it may be worth investigating whether these intuitions arise from fear and bias or from “supra-rational” intuition that our conscious monkey brains don’t quite grasp.

Another update: Rather than viewing myself or any true survivor as “damaged goods,” I’m now a bit of a snob about it. The only “damaged goods” are “non-survivors”– people who internalized the worst of what was done to them and become as evil and sketchy as the perpetrators who originally traumatized them. The latter are the abusers or “trauma zombies” and those are also the people who tend to constantly mistake internally driven fears and biases for “fact” as they go around projecting their own skeezy characters on the innocent. In other words, those who are not abusers who internalized past abuse and end up victimizing others have more reason to trust their intuitions. One exception might be some harmlessly delusional person with some inflammatory brain disorder but most average, innocent, functioning people should heed their alarm bells– at least check out whether there’s some fire behind that smoke.

The good news is that the more we learn to interpret and trust our intuitions (at least enough to investigate the smoke), the less painful and disruptive those periodic “flashes” become. They’re still “clear” but not so cataclysmic that they threaten health. There’s even a wonderful theory in psychoanalysis by a 20th century shrink named Kazimierz Dabrowski called “Positive Disintegration” (look up Wikipedia article on it for intro) about how those who allow themselves to heed intuition and value their sensitivities can eventually evolve into truly stable and integrated people.

I think it’s true that true survivors can be wiser, generally better company and very constructive in a social sense. I have a soft spot for very naive, sweet and sheltered people– like children– who believe the world is a beautiful place. I want to protect their innocence. But for close company and support, I especially value true survivors. Studies have shown that, for instance, many Holocaust survivors ended up with an increased sense of empathy, social justice and joy over the small and simple wonders of existence. And look at history and who the main pioneers of humanist progress and deeper truths have been: survivors (of whatever). Who have always been the main people calling attention to, say, the dangers of toxic dumping or dangerous pharmaceutical drugs or the early signs of a dangerous political regime? Survivors.

Sweet, beatific, naive people are one thing but this is far different than stubbornly sheltered denialists who’ve developed Calvinist defenses for their denial of reality and their view that their lives are good because God loves them more. I really don’t have much use for the latter. Unfortunately, well-to-do white people from first world countries who are living in a rare and buffered period of history that promotes an attitude of exceptionalism are those with the power and platforms to create concepts of “normal.” The problem is that what constitutes an abnormal, outrageous traumatic experience to an exceptionalist, stubbornly-sheltered westerner might be “last Tuesday” for a lot of the world. The more I’ve traveled and lived in other countries, the more I’ve noticed how different the dialogue about trauma can be. For instance, living for a time in a South American country that’s still recovering from a string of past violent dictatorships that claimed so many victims and such a wide range of victims that it’s left a national impression that “bad things can happen to good people.” The fact that some former victims have risen to positions of national authority and politics has removed the sense that victims are all pathetic and clouded and were probably weak sisters to begin who “attracted” misfortune. I have a feeling this is why conversations with average people can veer quite casually into discussions of all sorts of harsh experiences, get passionate and emotional for a minute, then, when everyone has “pinged” off the others and is reassured they’re in understanding company, the conversations swing back to something unserious and everyone is laughing. It’s so wonderful to not feel like traumatic experience makes us freaks and to even feel like it gives us value and more points of bonding with others. This is why I suspect it’s easier to recover in environments where the basic tenets of survival are more widely understood and harder to recover from trauma in artificially sheltered societies which view traumatic experience as damaging baggage and where people have the luxury of the Calvinist view that bad things only happen to defective, weak or bad people.

This is all a long way of saying that maybe FKA’s radar isn’t “damaged” but “upgraded.” I would never thank trauma and evil for improving our intuition since I think most of us could have eventually learned that wisdom from books and listening to other people. Screw the evil “teachers.” But I think relatively innocent, decent people can stand in awe of our amazing human survival mechanisms, faculties and ability to adapt and maybe just give ourselves the benefit of the doubt that, if we’re smelling “smoke,” it might not be just from “past fires.” Just food for thought.

I had a long-term and a short-term marriage. I was young when I first married. I did not wait long enough to re-marry. I did not think about why I was getting married, I just believed I “should” be married. All of the mistakes I made when I was young, and when I was married, were related to my concept of who I “should” be, and what I “could” tolerate. The sad story for me is that I never observed a happy marriage. I had no expectations of being happy, long term. If I was sexually compatible (I didn’t know about the sexual basement, or even imagine it) I was content.

The strange thing is that I was raised in a repressive, mostly misogynistic environment, but I was able to be independent and think outside the “box” I was raised in. I think it was because I was an avid reader and spent a lot of time thinking about the different ideas and cultures I learned about while reading. Since reading is a solitary and quiet activity, no one ever thought to question the danger of the revolution that was happening in my brain.

When I finally was able to declare independence, and leave my parent’s home, I started a very long journey to my true independence. I fought many battles against the “should” culture I was raised in. After the last divorce, something in me started forming a different self from the self I was raised to be. My attitude toward men changed.

It is important to note I had already had children, worked, earned my degrees, while this quiet revolution was going on. My needs had definitely changed from the needs I had as a young woman. I am in the last chapter of my life now, and I do not need a man for anything. Men tend to find this disconcerting. The last man I did try to date did not like it at all. He said “I thought you would change, and start to need me, but you haven’t.” I thought that was a good thing, but obviously he wanted me to become dependent because he thought that was what I “should” do. I tried dating sites, but I found it to be too much work to sift thru the liars and predators. I hope it can work for some people, but I decided it just was not worth it for me.

Now, I am not dating. I go out with a group of friends, usually for music. I am more friendly with women, most of us have had some common experience. Most of the men I know are just not attractive to me in that tingly, I want to date you way. Maybe I will never tingle again? Most of the men I know are unavailable anyway. I just know whether or not I am physically attracted almost instantly, and that there must be something more beyond the attraction for me to even consider another relationship at my age. When men do approach me, and I know I am not interested I just tell them I do not date. I have been there and done that and don’t want to do it again. They can think whatever they need to think, but I am kind about it. I am willing to take any “blame” they may assign, because I really don’t care what they think. It is nice to know they still find me attractive, or perhaps they still perceive that I may be useful? Who knows? But clearly, my needs have changed, and I do what I want to do without worrying about what my culture tells me I “should” do.

I do not believe there is any quick fix to get over the damage done when you have been chumped. You have to find your own path to MEH, and you have to believe you are worth any struggle necessary for you to be happy.

I was so angry right after my stbx left the house. Any man that talked to me, my immediate reaction was, I bet he’s cheating on his partner.

My best friend said not all men are like my ex and my ex can’t take away my future as well as my past and encouraged me to start dating. I started just for fun and my perspective on men changed. Anyone that didn’t meet my standards, I texted and told them it was nice meeting them but they weren’t a good fit for me. I always told men that my ex cheated and that was why I was separated before I met them. I was always clear that if a man cheated on a former partner I didn’t want to meet them. I had a few dates where men showed up and after talking for awhile told me about their cheating. Lol. I told them it was nice to meet them but I wouldn’t meet them again because I couldn’t go through that again and I don’t trust them. Integrity is so important. If you get someone talking they usually tell you their story.

Tracy and CN really saved me. I read CL everyday. I’ve worked on my picker. The thing that always sticks with me when i was dating was, the question this relationship acceptable to me and do I want to model this behavior for my son.

I’ve met some lovely men, but I really love being on my own. My life is complete without a man. I didn’t really think I would find someone good enough for me.

Then I meant my boyfriend (also a former chump). I can’t get over the difference having a partner that reciprocates and participates in my life and my sons life. I never thought I would have a relationship like this. I know that if the relationship changes and it is no longer acceptable, I will be happy on my own.

I’m a pretty nurturing person naturally. I’m that person who will be your biggest cheerleader and bake you some brownies while I’m at it. I hear often that I’m a good listener. In high school, girls used to always want to hang out with me and my best friend because they said we made them feel like they belonged and we built everyone around us up. I’m that sort of person. I was a very good wife. I did a lot for my family and I did it out of love, not because I’m weak or uneducated or any of the other insulting things that are sometimes said about women like me.

I found that a lot of well meaning women said things like “well, you”ll never make that mistake again, will you?” And the mistake they are referring to is loving and caring for my family. It made me so incredibly sad. I’m not ever allowed to be myself and love anyone again or I deserve to get hurt like this again? Really?

My own sister said to me, “Well, if someone lets you use them then you should use them, it’s the right thing to do because they let you.” She said that to me just a few days after I had helped a blind woman count her money at work and organize her wallet. So I should have robbed her?! The “right” thing to do would be to take some of her money since I could easily do that? It’s morally sound because she let me by asking me for help?!

I feel like that would be the road to bitterness for me. Refusing to be myself and love good people because some bad people hurt me in the past. Fuck that. I’m right back to being my cheerleader self. I’m not letting bad people change me and I’m not going to punish all the good people in my life because of them. Cancerous people can be cut out as they are discovered but I’m living my life without fear of my kindness being weaponized against me. I’m with a good man now and I may spoil him but he’s good to me and if I find out different, well, I survived it before so I can survive it again. In the meantime, I’m going to enjoy life.

I’m sticking my head out here because I see a misunderstanding about PTSD. Similar to the misunderstanding about depression (you cannot think your way out of it).
Many of us have these symptoms early days, but we recover, and then it is not PTSD.

I am 15 years out and I have a clinical diagnosis of late-onset PTSD. For the record, I have a great trauma specialist, and I still check-in.
There is a comment in this article about taking your power back. Great goal, embrace that. The comment misses the fact that PTSD is about the limbic system. Limbic happens before you process logic. You can take your power back 100% and still have the limbic brain sabotage you.
My 1st experience with PTSD was a social dance instructor getting too close physically (reminding me of…), purely in the fun of dance. It sent my (usually normal) blood pressure to 199/188 for two weeks. You cannot tell your body to lower BP. You get hospitalised for this BP.

My adrenaline literally ran 24/7 for a week and a half. Try out-think that! It then started and stopped at random. Good luck out thinking that!

The dance instructor was kind and has been super supportive because they frequently see rape victims being sabotaged by their Amygdala. Most give up dancing.
You cannot therapy out of PTSD. I am still dancing 5 years later, I ended up going more that I would have (yay, exposure therapy). I am better, but my limbic system still sabotages me from time-to-time.
PTSD is not a choice, it is a consequence.

We build a fantastic life. The lizard brain kicks in. I still have adrenaline then runs for an abnormally long time.