Do Other Women Hate Women?

do other women hate women

She has a theory: Do Other Women hate women? Is there some kind of self-loathing, internalized misogyny going on?

***

Dear Chump Lady,

I know it’s not very meh of me, but I would call it more of a curiosity on whether my theory about most Other Women is correct. I was wondering if you could share your thoughts on how it seems to me, that OW always seem to be the types that don’t really like other women.

They don’t keep a circle of close girlfriends and they only enjoy the company of whatever idiot they are currently involved with, his friends and completely immerse themselves into the idiot’s life. Or, they are the type that are that one girl within a circle of male friends. They will, over time, have some type of hook-up with one or several of the friends, working her way down the line.

I’ve noticed these types of women seem to have what I like to call “Terminator view.”

When they see another woman that they envy, or they see as a threat to them being the Fabulous One, the targeted woman must be destroyed.

I remember telling my ExAsshat this about his Plan B. He stood there with the thousand yard stare. If I said this to him now, (which I wouldn’t, because he would enjoy it) he would accuse me of being jealous of HER because she’s so wonderful and threatening to women, it’s hard for her to have girlfriends. I’d be interested to read Chump Nation’s opinion on my theory. Thanks again for the daily catharsis.

Freebird

***

Dear Freebird,

Hmm. Interesting question. Do Other Women hate women? Do they just hate themselves? (Surely you must have some kind of self-esteem issue to be a side-dish fuck?) Do they love the competition? Or are they just run-of-the-mill narcissistic jerks?

I don’t know. But I can offer a few observations myself. I think we do a disservice to all women if we assume their friendships with men are only to sleep with them. (Or fuck their way through a man’s social circle.) Let’s not make assumptions about all women with male friends. Maybe she works in a male-dominated field. Or maybe she likes sports. Maybe she has a lot of brothers. Maybe one guy in the crowd is her boyfriend and she’s faithful to him.

I don’t think it’s fair to make assumptions about women with male friends.

Judge a person by their actions.

If she’s acting narcissistically, if everyone is a kibble source, if she’s actually a cheater? Feel free to cull this person from your social register.

I think what your question really gets down to is straight women acting like straight men are a scarce commodity we must fight each other for. Do OW act like that? Oh hell yes. (And I shall take apart their pseudo feminism on these grounds in a moment…) But so do chumped women. You want to perpetuate the patriarchy, sisters? Do the pick me dance. That’s what the “Terminator view” is — destroy the competition. Act like some cheating asshole is a PRIZE. Like you can’t do without him. Like his dick’s happiness is the most important thing in the world and must be serviced at all costs.

Women in reconciliation live with hypervigilance.

Is that female co-worker a threat? Is his secretary too attractive? Was that email he sent a bit too flirtatious? To reconcile means you’ve probably bought in at some level that the cheating is your fault and you can prevent it by being a Better Spouse. Prettier, thinner, more in tune with His Needs. You may say you trust — but that trust will need verification. Other women will be deemed potential threats. Because it’s much easier to externalize your anxiety on to the Other, than to recognize that your husband was a traitor and could betray you again.

Now then, Other Women and the Universal Sisterhood? Fuck cheaters as enlightened feminists. Those articles make me crazy. The trope goes that Other Women are not bound by the drab rules of monogamy. They’re edgy paradigm shifters! They so don’t Need a Man. They just like the married ones so they can fuck and discard them — no strings attached! Did she steal your boyfriend? Hey! Don’t “slut shame” her! She’s just expressing her sexuality, which is her right.

Let UBT that for the OW.

A) You don’t need a man?

Yeah right. That’s why you’re competing with his spouse. You need an unlevel playing field of secrecy and deception because you’re so very secure in your fabulousness. Got it.

B) No strings attached sex?

Using people and discarding them makes you a sociopath, not a sophisticate. You’re not more of a feminist for being a jerk. You want casual sex? Fine. Go frolic among the single people looking for the same. Swipe right and stay away from the married ones with children.

C) Slut shame?

You shouldn’t ever be ashamed of your sexuality. You should be ashamed of treating people like shit. (Monica Lewinsky, I’m talking to you.) The problem isn’t your love of sex — the problem is enjoying the naughty deceit at the expense of some chump. Walk away from the triangle. Have more self respect than to play hypotenuse to some fuckwit. Being an easy lay isn’t admirable. Anyone can do it. Aspire to actual accomplishments.

Freebird, no one is jealous of OW, really. The OW just wish they were. You too can walk away from the triangle.

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Lostandfound
Lostandfound
8 years ago

In my opinion, without exception, OW are ghouls and trolls. As someone said on this forum yesterday, they are bottom feeders staking their happiness on the destruction of someone else’s marriage. Regardless of what shit the cheating husband told her, she is investing in lies and misery. If he will do it to his wife and children, what does schmoopie think she’s gonna get? The difference is that she deserves it. We (chumps) didn’t know what was going on. In most cases, the OW knew and got off on it, and she deserves the shit storm she invited in, fucked and took on.

ginger
ginger
8 years ago
Reply to  Lostandfound

+1

Hidden Identity
Hidden Identity
8 years ago
Reply to  Lostandfound

“without exception”? really? that’s a very blanket statement. that’s like saying that all cheaters are driven to cheat because their unhappy in their relationships rather than some cheat because they’re unhappy and some cheat even when they’re happy in the relationship.

There are a lot of men out there who trick women into being the OW because they lie and say they’re unmarried/divorced. I don’t think people know how common this is. The same trickery and manipulation that they do on their SOs is the same one used for the OW.

Pauline
Pauline
8 years ago

Yes! My cheater, somehow never told the OW we had Sex EVERY DAY! He ommitted telling her about our ‘2nd honeymoon’ to Hawaii…she had NO clue about our relationship!

uneffingbelievable
uneffingbelievable
8 years ago

H.I, the “not knowing” excuse only works for about two weeks. Can’t call him at home? Never been to his house? Weekends are really busy for him? Holidays out of the question? At that point the OW/OM either has their head buried up their ass, an IQ of about room temperature or they are scumbag home wreckers.

Alexandra
Alexandra
8 years ago

Some of those WS get pretty smart. I know of one that put up a whole separate Facebook profile with a different last name. While other sets of pics etc. So he would get caught. A lot of the “I didn’t know” OW are also pretty young. I would never have suspected on my youth that a married man would actually pursue someone. Call me naive, but those sociopaths sure know how to pick their targets. (I was never a WS or OW by the way. My husband was the cheater).

Anita
Anita
8 years ago

Cut me a break, Hidden Identify. Just how often do you think this “I didn’t know he was married” really goes on??. When my friends and I were single and dating in the 70s/early 80s we could determine very quickly who was “single” and who wasn’t. Without Facebook, internet, background checks, cell phones, etc. I think a lot of these chicks use the I don’t know cause it makes them look better when they are caught.

MB
MB
6 years ago
Reply to  Anita

@Anita…I agree. I’m often VERY skeptical of the ones who claim that they didn’t know a guy was married.
While there are times where this is the case, those are exceptions. Most of the time the OW knows that she is dealing with a married man but she doesn’t care.

And then there are the other excuses like “he isn’t happy with his wife” and “they’re separated” (unless he is officially divorced, he is still MARRIED).
OW will say anything to avoid their share of the blame.

Gail
Gail
8 years ago
Reply to  Anita

I agree…especially since most are coworkers and know every detail about his or her family for years before they act on there tru wuv feelings! My ex husbands girlfriend coworker knew friends of both of us through his company! They both planned and hid money for years…. Just before retirement they both tried to rape me off 36 years in assets… I consider them thieves and criminals!

Confused123
Confused123
8 years ago
Reply to  Anita

This is the excuse Jason Aldean’s new wife EX whore used. “I didn’t know he was married” said the BImbo to People magazine. Heard of GOOGLE!!. and he’s a freaking ROCK STAR with a Wiki page.

Let go
Let go
8 years ago
Reply to  Anita

Anita, you are right. It takes about two minutes in the States to find basic info. I read a blog the other day from a young woman whose husband cheated and left. She got on a dating site, met a really great guy, and just on a hunch looked him up on line. Sure enough he is married. I think any woman who tries to have a relationship with a man who “visits the city a couple of times a month” is dealing with a cheater. If the guy is on the upandup he introduces the woman around, is available by text, phone or in person weekends etc., so you might be fooled for a while but you can’t be naive enough to think he is just a private person who doesn’t want to share you with his friends, family etc. There are ow blogs where they say by the time they knew they were too in love to stop. And what is this crazy shit about people gaming online and it morphing into a love affair? I am so out of touch.

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  Let go

My current partner I met through an online game. Its about having a shared interest and then realising that the person behind the screen has more things in common with you, you end up talking outside the game, and it goes from there. No different from online dating, to be honest.
I’m a bit offended that you would call it ‘crazy shit’.

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
8 years ago
Reply to  Lania

My middle son has been online gaming for a long time, and has made friends all over the world. I think it’s a perfectly legitimate way to meet people, and also builds a ton of skills.

Lania
Lania
8 years ago
Reply to  FreeWoman

(Responding this way because theres no reply button)
Let go, I’ve never been married. I have met two of my partners on an online game – my current one, and one prior.

You are correct in saying that there are OW/OM who troll games for ‘taken’ people. In fact, I’ve dealt with women/girls who are exactly like that – but I give them a wide berth in game. Hell, one of the cheaters in my life, was because of one of these whores (who turned out to be underage at the time. She tried to be sanctiminious towards me, after that had happened, but I basically told her point blank that if she didn’t want me reporting her to the authorities in her home country, she’d stay the fuck away from me in all forms, including said game. Always fun to have your boyfriend preferring the company of 12 and 14 year olds instead of your 22yr old self, yeah? No. Its sick as shit). There are also people who I call ‘pixel-skanks’ who will happily send nude photos or videos of themselves for free cash or items in the game – but really this is no different from any gold-digging type in real life. These females usually get a reputation though, and the only men who would have a go, are usually just as sleazy as well.
Its really about having boundaries and not putting up with bullshit, much like you would in real life.

Pretty much every person who I have a casual acquaintance or are friends with in the game, I vet them beforehand – and if theres any drama, I’m immediately out. Ditto any groups for events in game, or ‘guilds’. I’ve had to end a couple of friendships this way because they were involved in drama or they weren’t exactly who they said they were. Or they were lying about stuff in the game itself. My closest friends though, I talk with them outside the game, and I know their ‘real life’ as well, including having spoken to their family, on the phone, and so forth.

Let go
Let go
8 years ago
Reply to  FreeWoman

I stand corrected. Were any of you married when you played? There are blogs by ow who met their cheaters on game sites. I guess it is no different than dating sites. Cheaters lurk on all of them. Hope you guys are happy. I truly mean that. I was not kidding when I say I am out of touch.

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago
Reply to  Lania

Quite right Lania. Playing online games is a relatively new social interest,but it is no more ‘crazy’ than going onto an online forum and making new friends there. I don’t think online gaming is ‘crazy shit’. Like everywhere else in society it attracts human beings and, as we all know, while the vast majority of human beings are good, honest folks, there are also narcs, sociopaths, idiots and downright unpleasant people out there too. There’s absolutely no reason to think online gamers would attract more cheaters than anywhere else.

CDNM Chump
CDNM Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  Let go

Let go, I suspected an affair between STBXH and howorker three times over 4 years (in 2011, 2012 and 2013) and confronted him, he denied it every time and called me crazy, finally caught him in 2014 with proof. Howorker was married too, she knew I was suspicious as well and even her facebook page under relationship she had a comment about her and her husband that said “It’s complicated”. Ya it was, she was screwing her boss, my husband. And to think they both called ME CRAZY!!! Assholes.

CDNM Chump
CDNM Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  CDNM Chump

Just to add, HE got what he deserved in the end, lost his job, the home we had that was our dream home on the lake (It’s for sale) and I left him. Consequences served cold for the deliberate scam they both did on me for so long. His image is fucked to, so is hers. 🙂

Sadface
Sadface
8 years ago
Reply to  CDNM Chump

CDNM Chump, I’m glad you got the justice done, good for you. I often wondering to myself, how the hell my H’s affair howorker got off for free without a scratch, but i have to suffer everyday. I always want to get revenge by telling her husband, beating her up or exposing her to public, but if i do that, everyone would know what my H did too, i don’t have the heart to let the whole town and my daughters know that my H was a cheater.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago

You are not alone, Musicbox.

Diablo. Similar circumstances. Two make outs. Found out from co-worker he was still married not separated like he said. I QUIT my job because the attraction was too great when I found out and two years later he comes back around after he and his wife separated. (She moved to another town about two hours away and had a boyfriend).

Thought I was special, the rest is history.

Duped
Duped
8 years ago

The OW believes she is “special” that all those things he did to his wife and kids , oh he would never do that to her because their love is real. It is narcissism and entitlement on her part as well.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago

I would not consider a person UNKNOWINGLY in a relationship with a married person (cohabitation or exclusive) as an “other” woman or man. I think they are a chump like the rest of us.

The game changes the moment the “other” KNOWS. End it, or you are one.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

CJ, there are many women who unknowingly fall into the trap of being duped by married pathological liars. I have records of the Limited calling three unsuspecting victims at a time. He told each and every on how horrible his life was and how we decided to get a divorce, or that we were separated yet still living together. The love bombing is intoxicating. On the previous dday I spoke with one of his victims he had told we were in the process of divorcing. As soon as he had her hooked he dumped me and expected to live with me while he was seeing her. As soon as I spoke with her she dumped him immediately. I’m pissed at myself for not filing back then as I wasted another 5 years of my life. Narcissists have numerous victims, and they do circle back as the narrative changes.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

..circle back. Succinctly put, Donna.

movin_on
movin_on
8 years ago

Hidden Identity, we make the distinction here quite a bit – between OMs and OWs who are acting with full knowledge and those who are lied to (chumped, so to speak). It’s pretty clear to me who L&F was referring to.

Lostandfound
Lostandfound
8 years ago
Reply to  movin_on

Yes. of course. Knowing is the key.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

No difference between OW and OM, IMO. NARCISSISTS.

Beth
Beth
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Very true Arnold! I think sometimes the AP are worse than the cheaters. Then again it amazes me how much crap the cheaters throws out to us chumps with the blame and mind games. The more I read and see about the cluster B’s there is no words to describe how disturbed they really are. I can spot them 500 miles away now. Oh how I wish I knew this stuff about Cluster B’s when I was very young. I could have saved so much pain and energy in my life and just walk away from them much sooner. Oh well now I know.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Beth

Beth, almost invariaby, when one starts looking into infidelity, you are led into researching Cluster B.s. No way is the prevalence in the 2-4% range, as some information claims.

Beth
Beth
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Thank you very much Arnold for your wonderful and very detailed insight. I must say what you wrote and other comments I have read on Chump Lady sight and other sites dealing with these cheaters and Cluster B describe my relationship with the ex in great detail and also how I felt and still feel about what happen.

Yes, I had many many red flags during my time with the ex. I am still uncovering many things that were very puzzling and downright disturbing about the ex and the people around him. Yes, I had many excuses for his behaviour from him being very young (we meet when I was 18 years old and he was 19 years old and we were together for about 20 years and married for many years also). There were some puzzling things about his childhood that I could never fully understand and also his parents behaviour also. I could never fully understand why him and his family behaved the way they did. All the normal excuses like you wrote above was never set right with me. Yes, the more time I was around him the more I could see the “mask” (as we write about this site) come off.

Things never did seemed to get better with him and the people around him. Every couple of days there was ALWAYS something happening that would blow me away in the terms of why would he do that and what was he thinking about? His sense of humour was on the borderline of him being a pervert and I would came across with some very sickening documents that he would draw or write about.

When we started to date there was no internet and mobile phones; however, when that came about it got even worse. There were times I cancelled internet in the home and also the mobile phones. There was never a time period that things were calm and peaceful when I was with him.

When we would discuss anything it would get very heated to the point I just would leave because I could not have a normal adult conversation with him. I could never understand why that would happen. Now years later I do understand it. I always had told him I would have to talk him away from jumping off the cliff in a matter of speaking when we would have any type of discussion about anything. I do recall several weeks before he left me I told him he would NEVER be happy.

There are so many things about the ex that I just could not understand. It’s hard to really to explain the things I had to deal with about the ex. All I can say everything was very disturbing. I know the ages of all the woman that he was involved in were very young ranging from at least 10 years younger to now about 20 years.

Both of them are all over social media sites I guess I can use this word “broadcasting” their perfect life. Also let me add this my family and friends took his side during the divorce and still today they are in daily contact with him and the last AP (now his wife and mother of his 2 or 3 kids).

Arnold, I have a step mother that I always thought she was in love with the ex. The way she would talk to him and flirt with him made me sick at times with my father right there. I did call her out about it. Also during the divorce process they would call him and tell him in great detail what I was doing. Then I would get a phone call from him not long after that him questioning what I was doing. Please note he left me for the AP so I never could understand why he would be calling me and questioning what I was doing. He never was concern when we were together what I was doing. Now he was very jealous person when we were together and it was very hard for me to have any type of friendship with a male and/or female.

Also I know when we were together and the first D-Day (I had several after that) for me the AP at that time if I reported it or it would have been found out he would lost his job and even place many people in danger because this woman had illegal things happening in her life.

I’m sure you understand being with someone like the ex and being with him for 20 years there are many many I mean many things that I question and now I am just beginning to understand. Of course I blamed myself and I was blamed by him and his family and even my family for what happen. I do remember my family even saying to me that I need to “let go” the first D-day if I wanted to keep my marriage together. That really would make me upset and I just could not understand why they would say such things. Now I know they wanted to keep him in their lives. They didn’t care about me what so ever. Arnold, the list goes on and on especially being with someone that long. Also he would give me so much pressure about having a kid. Right before he left me I had a miscarriage and got the ok to try again. So I know this has nothing to do about lack of sex and/or attention or anything else.

Thank you again for your great insight. Everything you wrote and the other comments I had about this I fully agree with and I am seeing and/or dealt with. Hugs to everyone here.

Beth
Beth
8 years ago
Reply to  Beth

Very true Arnold. It’s amazing how much these cheaters and the AP act the same way. Just shows us that really they are not as “special” and “unique” as they THINK they are. The more knowledge I gain the more I can see it has nothing to do about us (the chumps) it has to do with the disorder they have and the relationship cycle they are always playing. That will never end. It just shows me that they (cheater and the APs) are just sick and sadly there is no cure. Thank you again for your insight.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Beth

One of the toughest things for me to acceot, Beth, was the fact that there really are people like this among us, in large numbers.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Current estimates are 9% (and some of us are magnets for ClusterBs, thereby having a much higher percentage within our social circle).

Beth
Beth
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Thank you so much Tempest. For some reason I do think (I’m not an expert) that %’s are really higher than that because we know how these Cluster B’s love to think nothing is wrong with them;-). Hugs!

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Continued: Final thing:Try to recall some of the really egregious instances of abuse or really insane stuff you put up with, now with the clarity of distance and time. I have about 10 that could not have been done by a normal person and there could be no interpretation imagineable that would leave any doubt that. I was dealing with a disordered abuse.
You have no way of really knowing what your ex’s new marriage is like behind closed doors. But,you know for certain he is a cheater , as is his new wife.
Coupled with what you must have experienced when married to him, I think you may have enough to feel confident you are mot the problem.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

And that, Chump friends and neighbors, is what all the Arnold hubbub is about.

Beth
Beth
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Tempest is those %’s for USA or for the entire world?

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Beth

I’d have to track down the source, but I suspect those are U.S. stats. However, a study across 6 nations (mostly Western, I assume) found 10.6% of personality disorders in general (not only cluster Bs) (Lenzenwenger, 2008).

Beth
Beth
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Very true, Arnold. I think the % numbers are much higher myself. Arnold, I was wondering and I asked this from the day before post from Chump Lady. I had some great comments and powerful insights from so many wonderful chump here and I would like to ask your insight as well (if you don’t mind). What is your take about the life that the cheaters have when they marry and have kids with the AP and the project that they can give to the outside world such as in social media and generally to the public? The ex and his last AP (that he left me for) got engaged during the time of the divorce process and the information I have gathered they married not long after the divorce was final. I think they have been together for many years now and meet where he worked at the time. They are still together with at least 2 kids maybe 3 very young. He would press me for years to have kids and I always had red flags about it but I did get pregnant twice and the last time I got pregnant I had a miscarriage and that is when I think they got together. From what I have gathered they are living the “perfect” life. Not long after the divorce was final they bought a home. He did cheat on my the entire relationship. Also from what I gather looks like they came up with a plan for all of this to happen. Also my family and friends are in daily contact with them both. I haven’t been in touch with any of them for many many years. He does fit pretty much every trait of a Cluster B. I would LOVE to read your thoughts about this. What are your thoughts that these cheaters marrying their affair partners and living the “perfect” life they seem to project to the outside world?

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Beth

I have no credentials on this,Beth. Just done a fair bit of reading and engaged in discussions with folks who think they are involved with a Cluster B ( very few diagnosed, as these types seem to seldom get therapy. But,IMO, the person in the relationship is, really in the best position to diagnose, as he or she is privy to a lot of stuff a Cluster B will never reveal to a therapist or the outside world.)

So, here is my very amateur take:

First, I see this type of question, with minor variations, a lot on the discussion boards re the disordered. I think I it is due to the fact that someone coming out from a relationship with a Cluster B has so much self doubt and confusion. What started out as a relationship where you felt valued and respected and liked for who you are, gradually changed. It was insidious, the abuse.

First, it was just minor, you seemed to irritate your spouse just a little . You may have been puzzled as the stuff you did seemed innocuous or even nice. Yet, the reaction was so confusing.

But, you chalked it up- bad day- maybe tired- maybe not feeling so hot, etc.

But, gradually and insidiously, over time, this type of ambient abuse ramped up. Now, you are getting really confused. Things you do that other people appreciated in the past or insignificant, innocuous things cause extreme irritation, maybe even rage( or the silent treatment, the quiet version of raging.)

Then, maybe, eventually, you fire back a little. Nothing as relentless or extreme as the abuse you are constantly getting, but stuff you regret saying. The provocation , has been extreme and fairly consta t( they seem tireless at this. The threat of it is always looking.)

They call this reactive behavior toward the disordered abuser “picking up fleas”. But. You remember it and this remembering comes into play later, at the stage you are at, wondering about the appearance of the subsequent relationship.

So, when you are dumped, often via cheating( one of their preferred exit vehicles), you wonder: Was it me? Did I destroy the relationship? As Tempest points out, disordered types target the very type of person who is likely to look first at him/ herself as the cause of problems. And, your self esteem and confidence are in the tank from the trauma of betrayal. Plus, as mentioned, the years of insidious, ambient abuse have taken a toll on you, especially eroding your confidence re accurately perceiving things( maybe putting the spoons in the dishwasher handles down really is a huge moral failing. Maybe visiting your kids from a prior marriage at school lunch does show how disloyal you are to your new wife and new kids, etc.).

So, you have the perfect storm of factors that make you question whether you destroyed the marriage or you were the abuser due to firing back on occasion.

So, in trying to figure this out, whether it was you, it makes sense to look at your husband’s new relationship. He is the common denominator, so if all is rosy, you must be the variable that corrupted things, right?

This is such a universal question among those left behind by a Cluster B, even if there was no cheating. You will see this type of question all the time on the forums.

So, what is the answer? Maybe you are the Disordered abuser. After all, abusers have no insight into themselves( at least the majority of Cluster B.s. don’ t seem to), so maybe it was you and you just cannot see it. Catch 22, right? If it was you and you are disordered, by definition your defense mechanisms prevent you from perceiving it.

I struggled with this, as many do. I saw both wives remarry(not to their affair partners) and their marriages, initially seemed idyllic, like your ex-husband’s now does. Eventually, I saw the cracks, but not for a while.

So, the question I think you may be really asking is “Was it me?”

Here are a couple things I have thought of that may help:
Number one: Really look at your relationships with others, not casual ones, but close ones, like family, long time friends, or. longtime colleagues or co_ workers. Do any of them think as poorly of you as your ex did? Do you , regularly offend them or pies them off? Are they consistently critical of you, like your ex was?

I bet not. I bet others like you and respect you. It is important that you consider the long time, close relationships because, as we have seen, the disordered are adept at fooling casual ones and you are looking to rule yourself out as disordered.

Number 2: Try to access information about your ex from before you knew him. This can be difficult. I had access to my XWs families and friends. They knew and liked me and, on their own came forward with unflattering characterzations and factual information about how they had led their lives in the past. Some of it was quite shocking, and siblings and even parents
Helped
.

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

ARNOLD 😀

WELCOME BACK DUDE!!! WE ALL MISSED YOU!!!!

😀 Thank you for coming back! WE need you!

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

Thanks,Jeep. The patrirchy( you know, those folks who die earlier, have 4 times the suicide rate. 95% of work place deaths, comprise 85percent of the homeless and who have criminal sentencing rates 2 and a half times as long for similar crimes((the priveliged class)), needed to chime in.

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Welcome Arnold 🙂

…not sure what the ‘chime in’ is about? But just love all the wonderful knowledge – well rounded education I’ve enjoyed learning here!!!!

Patsy
Patsy
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

Welcome back Arnold! We have missed you.

Your posts pointing out that the marriage problems are raised by the character issues of the cheater, are among my most valuable. Truly, truly reassuring.

So really please you have returned.

Lostandfound
Lostandfound
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

You are right CL, because that’s exactly what happened in my case. Left for dead and replaced by schmoopie. Because, you know, it is the greatest love.

Lostandfound
Lostandfound
8 years ago
Reply to  Lostandfound

I think it all starts out at naughty fun but no one-long term schmoopie or a so called free spirit, enjoys breaking up a family just for the sex. It’s lack of values and accountability. I used to believe in the sisterhood of all women but now, not so much. Maybe these woman are contemptuous of other women to some extent. I don’t know.

Kar marie
Kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  Lostandfound

+1

Just around the bend
Just around the bend
8 years ago

“Women in reconciliation live with hypervigilance. Is that female co-worker a threat? Is his secretary too attractive? Was that email he sent a bit too flirtatious? To reconcile means you’ve probably bought in at some level that the cheating is your fault and you can prevent it by being a Better Spouse.”

I don’t agree with this. Hypervigilance can help you identify a problem sooner rather than later. And I think we can agree to the advantages of that.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago

Can’t speak for anyone but myself but I’m dating an unsparkly guy who has no problem talking about anything I want to discuss. Both of us still have connections to our ex-spouses (his a likely cheater, mine the substance abuser) and we are both very open about those contacts and connections. He will tell me to open his phone and look at his messages if he is driving (and vice versa). I don’t spend any time wondering if he is cheating because I know he isn’t. He is not only honest; his actions and his words always match up. So far he is 100% reliable and unfailingly kind and good at reciprocity. Of course, things aren’t as “exciting” as the previous 40 years I spent with various men who drank and expected me to put up with what I used to call their “wannabe” admirers. At my age, I don’t need that excitement.

That said, should I see any red flags, I know I will be fine on my own. Even if I get hurt. That’s another reason I don’t feel the need to be hyper vigilant.

cheaterssuck
cheaterssuck
8 years ago
Reply to  LovedAJackass

LAJ so happy to read this. It’s always awesome to read about chumps finding other relationships that are reciprocal in which they feel completely at ease with trusting this new mate.

I haven’t felt ready to go there yet because I still feel like I need to work on my picker some more. I have always believed that when the time comes and I’m ready for a relationship, I will be able to trust again.. I refuse to believe that I will always be worried and jumpy and feel the whole world cheats as the RIC tries to scare everyone into believing. I think cheaters want us to believe this too.

Thanks LAJ!

KK
KK
8 years ago

I think this comes down to fixing your picker. It isn’t your responsibility to play marriage police. If you think it is, look up ‘codependency’. Date whoever you want unless those red flags pop up. If they do, dump him. If you remarry, you want someone you can trust. I’m not saying to bury your head in the sand or turn a blind eye if something fishy comes up. But to actively look for, search, anticipate deceit is no way I want to live. If you can’t trust someone, dump them. If your policing his friendships, and he is a cheater, he will eventually get one past you. What have you won?

CODEPENDENCY: Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.[1] Among the core characteristics of codependency, the most common theme is an excessive reliance on other people for approval and identity.[1]

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
8 years ago
Reply to  KK

KK, this is very helpful!
Working on my lifetime of Codependency, I think my heart and mind is finally just out-growing the need for it. CN has helped so, so much.

donna
donna
8 years ago

The OW have one thing in common, someone else’s spouse. I’m so tired of triangulation. My marriage was like training for the Olympics and when I won the competition I could never enjoy the medal. There was always another event.

ZMICHELLE
ZMICHELLE
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

This

Martha
Martha
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

Excellent, Donna! I never thought about it that way — always another event. And the triangulation — I always felt like I was competing with “someone” or “something”, but I could never figure out who or what it was.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Martha

Martha, yes that feeling like you were competing with someone or something is part of the control. Its such an undermining process with narcissists. With the covert there was always a feeling of competition and then there were the statements which were brutal in between delivered with ease and I always wondered how anyone could make such statements. I believed at the time he just didn’t know any better and had no idea how much these comments hurt. Now I recognize it as his way of gaining power and control. Because he was childlike and did many of the right things I didn’t realize these statements were purposeful.
Unfortunately, the simple man was so skilled he used our family to hide for years. It wasn’t until I saw my therapist that I was able to put all the pieces together. It wasn’t just the pain of the discard, it was knowing I lived with a predator for my entire life.

Strad
Strad
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

So true. It seemed I was always competing in the gold medal round of Walking on Eggshells.

nodancing
nodancing
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

Donna, such a good analogy. There was always another hurdle, another way I was supposed to prove myself to him. That got really old, really fast.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

“Always another event…” truth!

Just around the bend
Just around the bend
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

After dealing with the inappropriate friendships / relationships that my first husband had, it made me more cognizant of the danger signs of such possibilities with other people. When dating my second husband, I was able to predict a few things correctly without ever having spoken or met with his so called friend. I was able to enforce boundaries sooner rather than later. (yes, he got rid of her.)

I call it hepervigilance and a good thing. Maybe someone wants to call it something else.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago

Thanks,Tempest. I cannot imagine who would disagree with any of my views… oh, wait….

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Arnold, very nice to hear from you again-it is the ” let’s have a reasoned discussion, even if we are all very different” element of Chump Nation that I value, and you are a great part of that.

Chump Nation is growing, and it is good to see a longer table, rather than taller fences.

love to all,
Meh

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago

Did you rap him on the snout with a rolled up newspaper?

Just around the bend
Just around the bend
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

“getting rid of her” is one option in exhibiting good boundaries.

Michael.
Michael.
8 years ago

I think CL means he should have had that boundary without you enforcing yours.

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  Michael.

Amen. I’m nobody’s fucking baby sitter. Once I realize you NEED a baby sitter I’m done. I thought I had a man, not a boy.

SayNoToSparkles
SayNoToSparkles
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

It’s torture and made me fell ill. I’m glad I threw the “recon” out the window and him on his ass.

ChumpFromF
ChumpFromF
8 years ago

I agree with you. It’s torture. It deprives one of energy. It steals ones ability to focus on things. It made me ill too. I thought I was going insane.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  ChumpFromF

It is humiliating and one debased oneself in reconciling,IMO. No one with self respect subjects him/herself to reconciling, IMO. The balance of power is forever denatured,with the cheater feeling superior.

Chumptitude
Chumptitude
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

It’s great to see you commenting again Arnold, and I agree with you – Debasing yourself to stay with a cheater that has demonstrated a total lack of respect for you is one of the most self-harming things one can do IMO.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumptitude

I do love this site. CL is a shining beacon in the wilderness. Plus, I am now semi retired, so I have more time to participate ( much to DAT’s delight, I am sure).

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Hi Arnold: I knew you couldn’t stay away for too long!! And congrats on your semi-retirement. You’ll also be amused that I defended your views last week, on a post that had TheClip clamoring for your return.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Chumptitude

Yes, Arnold. Please don’t deprive Chump Nation of your wisdom for too long.

Anne
Anne
8 years ago
Reply to  ChumpFromF

I’m actually glad I tried the Pick Me Dance once. I thought twenty-six years was worth at least attempting to save. I gave it my best effort, was super vigil and realized when I hit twenty-seven years of marriage, that what I had was no marriage and I didn’t want to live any longer with someone who devalued me and lied to me. But at least I can look back and say that I didn’t want to learn the steps of that particular dance. She’s welcome to him.

WonderNoMore
WonderNoMore
8 years ago
Reply to  Anne

Me to. 26 years. I’m glad I did the extra attempt at reconciliation as far as the ‘extra’ confirmation of knowing he is a horrible person to lie a second time AFTER he knew full well the physical and mental effects on me. (or didn’t know, just a dumb stare really—). BUT, I wouldn’t recommend it? I think finding this site first and going that route would have been awesome, I’d be outta here by now!!!!!!! Hmmm torn I guess.

Just around the bend
Just around the bend
8 years ago

I should also mention that you don’t have to be in reconciliation to be hypervigilant.

Janus
Janus
8 years ago

Why should one need to be “hyper vigilant?” Ethics are what we do when no one is watching. We can’t be there all the time, so we need to ditch the unethical.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago

If I have to spend a moment of my life looking for “potential” problems, I consider that hyper vigilance and/or marriage, – relationship police…

I would rather chew glass.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

You’re so right, CJ–the hypervigilance is exhausting, even if it’s only trying to figure out why you feel ill at ease (without any tangible evidence). Worse than chewing glass–yes.

Just around the bend
Just around the bend
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

I would love to follow you to that island of perfection but I don’t think it exists. People do not behave as they should / fairly / whatever. People find that even their own Mother/ Father will hang them out to dry…… seemingly without warning.

Me, I prefer not be blindsided.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago

Deep distrust.

It’s a very hard way to live. It’s the dark place my cheaters wanted me to go after fucking me over. It’s where they live and why they are incapable of bonding.

Yes, there are some parents who throw they own children under the bus. They are disordered. Peace be with you on your journey, JATB.

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

CJ – I totally agree with you. I do not / will not allow the legacy from the hell that was being cheated on be that I will move forward forever distrustful. I have no plans to jump into the dating pool – mainly because I was so blindsided by ‘The Great I Am’ that I would forever have to question / marriage police / trust but verify. I would rather ‘chew glass’ than have to live with that level of insecurity ever again. That being said, up until ‘The Great I Am’ I have never been cheated on in previous relationships and therefore my natural default state is ‘trusting’ (and if anyone dare to suggest ‘as far as you know, you’d never been cheated on before’ as my delightful mega-narcissist sister-in-law tried to have me doubt my own reality, I shall scream so loud you’ll bloody well hear it all the way over the other side of the pond)!

ChefBella
ChefBella
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

Before Voldemort, I had never been cheated on either. It can happen to anyone. I thank my years of training myself to listen to my intuition. It caught it early, and despite the blameshifting and gaslighting, I did not believe him.

You can’t control someone. “Cheaters are going to cheat”. Did I contribute to problems in the relationship? Yes, I was a person in the relationship. Did I make him cheat? Hell, no, that’s all on him.

I am dealing with some of my PTSD in my return to dating….a lot of self-doubt, how did I miss it, will I be able to see the red flags in time, etc. etc. Also, dealing with “When is the other shoe going to drop?” Even in online dating as a new social phenomenon, there are still a lot of good people out there. Maybe not the right person for me, but still good. Its a process of recovering from the trauma of betrayal and emotional violence of cheating. I am learning to trust myself again and feel the solidity of the work and healing of the last few years.

I think what I enjoy in these early days is getting to communicate with many people in a fairly safe way through a self-contained online site. People do tell you who they are early on, but it is a matter of listening and practicing discernment, as well as good boundaries.

Just around the bend
Just around the bend
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

I hope that peace will be with you as well. (you’re here, too, whatever strategy you’re trying to follow).

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago

Jayne and Tempest –

Love to you both.

Just around the bend –

RE “I hope that peace will be with you as well. (you’re here, too, whatever strategy you’re trying to follow).”

If you are genuine in wishing me peace, thank you, I need it.

Truth does not need a strategy.

Chumptitude
Chumptitude
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

“Truth does not need a strategy” So true, thanks CJ!

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago

Jatb – You might be new to the site, but Calamity Jane is about as Meh as we can get. ChumpLady and Chump Nation is a community of friends who ‘get it’ and offer support to people who have suffered / are suffering through this abusive outrage that is being cheated on. I hope in time you’ll see that some posters (like CJ) do so because whilst they are at ‘Meh’ they want to pay it forward and offer the support they received in what feels like a world full of cheaters and cheater apologists. Calamity Jane is a lovely person and her good wishes to you are sincerely and well meant. Whilst I am closing in rapidly on my own ‘Meh Day’ (sometimes I’m even pretty damned sure I’m there) Chump Nation and Chump Lady saved me from hell and I read and post now to offer support where I can (cos if everyone left at Meh day this community would not have the wise voices of chumps who got there and can tell us Mehland exists) I also read to connect with the wonderful friends (like Calamity Jane) I made and who helped me in my desperate depths of despair. Lots of people do ‘graduate’ and drift away after ‘Meh’ but a lot of people stick around cos there are such fab people here. I hope you can get to feeling the same way.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

+1. CalamityJane has been a source of great wisdom and comfort since I first trucked my traumatized self over to CL a few weeks after D-day. She could easily move on, but comes back daily to give nurturance and advice to those of us still struggling with grief, anger, and an inability to fully wrap our heads around what hit us. (she’s just as amazing IRL, I might add. And fun.)

CDNM Chump
CDNM Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

“I’d rather chew glass”, that’s what it came down to for me to get out, I hated that job and quit! Love that you gave me that analogy CJ. 🙂

creativerational
creativerational
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

+1. It’s my time, I choose not to monopolize it with things that make me feel shitty for their failures of character

JC
JC
8 years ago

Interesting.

I’d agree not to judge all APs as overall similar. Frankly, my ex wife’s OM sounds like he is similar to me in some ways.

And my ex, who is an OW, sounds like she has some similarities to her AP’s chump.

We are all so varied, and similar and different in so many ways.

But the key differentiator between chumps and cheaters is all I need to judge cheaters and APs.

Cletus
Cletus
8 years ago
Reply to  JC

I agree her…My XW’s first two APs (that I know of) were completely different than me… I am a nerd academic, laid back and hippiesh … These guys were gym rats, arrogant, but in the end complete chickenshits… When a found out about the long distance one, he and the neighbor AP both dumped her (yes 2 at the same time)… When neither would take her and I was ready to divorce her she decided to “fight for our marriage” as she simply cannot be alone… she did absolutely nothing reconcile but continue to go out most nights leaving me with the kids until she found a chumpy, rather pathetic guy to do all the shit I used to do for her. To the point I actually kind of feel sorry for him…He has no idea what he is in for and pretty sure she is on dating sites trying to move up the ladder…point is APs come in all shapes and sizes, but all have one thing in common…lack of decency and integrity

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Cletus

Freebird,

Sorry for the pain he caused you.

Thanks for a great letter.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Cletus

OT (but it’s a Friday post so what the heck). – Any of you Chumps dated, divorced, or married a “gym-rat” guy? I’m a 6-foot-2, 209 pound guy who lives in a city where most people walk at least three miles a day. Nevertheless, my STBXW chose a gym-rat “ab-selfie” dude as her exit-adultery partner. I’m curious why a guy in his 40s all the sudden spends all his post-divorce time at the gym. Is “gym-rat” a Chump or a Cheater? Unanswerable question? (I know, too much free rent in my brain.)

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Ian, I am kind of a (female) gym rat myself. I have a sedentary job and need to get up and move, especially in the winter, and I go to a gym which is a serious training gym and work out with paid fitness experts with grad degrees in human movement, etc. We’ve also had lots of posters write about “yoga” cheaters, who hook up in the studio or cheaters who cheat with running partners, etc. In my years of going to various gyms, sporting events, yoga studios, (and hanging around the college gym where I work like a gym rat should), no one has ever hit on me. But if someone is out looking for a cheating partner (aka kibble source), a gym or yoga studio or running trail probably beats the supermarket. Think of it this way: it’s hard for a spouse to argue with exercise, so it makes a good cover, for a while.

ChefBella
ChefBella
8 years ago
Reply to  LovedAJackass

I agree. I am no longer the fit person I was, but in my years of doing yoga, I have not been hit on often. It happens, but its usually friendly singles who are making conversation to see if there is compatibility. I also don’t frequent the meat market studios, and I don’t have a killer athletic body, so there is that.

There are narcissistic types (somatic), that would be more likely to be at the gym/studio/whatever. They also engage in self-objectification, and their relationship to their bodies is “a meat suit”. Its not the embodied home of their psyche, to be stewarded, loved, and cherished. For a somatic narcissist, the body itself is a source of supply, and its maintenance and sculpting provides two fold supply: they “own” a beautiful body, and that body attracts more supply to it in the form of sex, admiration, and attention.

Its also easy cover to be at the gym, looking for an affair. But if you’re going to cheat, its just a matter of finding a receptive party. Narcissists are just looking for a good field to play on. The gym is ideal: good cover, lots of toned athletic bodies, physically inclined people.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  ChefBella

ChefBella,

Your insights into narcissists is quite deep. I will go back and read the yoga cheater piece(s). Thanks for the heads-up on that.

I’m especially interested in the distinction regarding the somatic narcissists. Yet another topic to delve into.

brit
brit
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

My X was a gym rat, four hours a day excluding weekends. The more time spent at the gym the more likely they’re a cheater. X’s time spent in the gym increased towards the end of our marriage. Another activity he became interested in was hiking on non gym days. I’m not talking a 2 or 3 mile hike, X hiked 25 miles up rugged mountains. I suggested shorter hikes so we could go as a family. He wasn’t interested. I later found out he was hiking with his latest AP a triathlete who was capable of joining him.
I’m not saying all gym rats are cheaters but in my opinion a good majority are. I go to the gym and get my workout over with. Gym rats work out excessively, looking for attention and hoping other gym rats are envious or secretly admiring their physique, or not so secretly.
One of X’s complaints was I didn’t notice how hard he worked out or complimented him when he came home from the gym “pumped,” my attempts to flatter him with compliments were rejected because he said I was only patronizing. Evidently he had found someone more sincere with her flattery.
All bullshit,

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Ian, satan started going to a gym once I’d booted him out…but…get this…this gym has a bar. WHA???!!!! sooooo…it’s really just more of the same.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

zOMG Jeep,

They just have NO SHAME do they? This might be too mean, but I wish he’d have dropped a dumbbell on himself while drunk. (Come to think of it, how does a place like that get insurance? No doubt a narc-owned business.)

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Ian 🙂 such kind thoughts 🙂 aaahhh yes, the dumbbell enlightenment! hehehehhehehhehe!!!!

Kay
Kay
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

You know what Jeep? You can’t make this stuff up!! A bar at the gym??!! All these stories. Jeez.

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Kay

Tis true Kay 😀

…I think their membership doubled so its a win for the gym! hehehhehehehehehe!

creativerational
creativerational
8 years ago

There’s a difference between recognizing a problem and working on your marriage and being the marriage police. Hyper vigilance is more work for the chump and it’s … Exhausting. And unfair. A person who’s a good partner won’t require that watching and spy game. Sign me up for that person, good riddance to the assholes

kb
kb
8 years ago

I realized very early on that I did not want to participate in any reconciliation. Anyone stupid enough to get sucked in by Schmoopie, whose track record of failed marriages and poor decisions meant that the men she did sleep with tended to walk away soon afterwards–that was not someone I wanted to be married to, let alone the infidelity.

However, from snooping on the texts between the two, it was clear that Schmoopie was very jealous of me.

And she’s jealous of the women he works with at his new job.

I am so glad I’m out of that!

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  kb

Yes, the stupidity exhibited by both my cheating XWs was also a huge factor in my having no I retest in reconciling. I would be embarrassed married to someone so dumb, as well as sociopathic.

paintwidow
paintwidow
8 years ago

Elizabeth Edwards the late wife of disgraced presidential candidate John Edwards once said “women should have more respect for other women”. That quote always stuck with me. I read it after D day #2 and it was always in my head after D Days 3-5.
I confronted almost every affair partner of my ex and they all said the same thing, that they didn’t feel any accountability after the affair because they didn’t cheat on me, he did.
My ex left me for his last affair partner and her three kids,our children no longer speak to him. I don’t know that this woman hates other women, I do know that she and my ex have rewritten history to suit their narrative, they really feel okay because their version of the affair, discard and divorce of me involves me being where I am because I was a terrible wife and I’m crazy, I didn’t trust him and he just deserved to be happy……none of that on them, all me.
In the two insane conversations I’ve had with the home wrecker she sees herself as perfectly entitled to take a husband that voices he’s unhappy at home. Can’t wait till he does it to her…..impatiently waiting.

Nancy Lay-King
Nancy Lay-King
8 years ago
Reply to  paintwidow

When you read what these snake-women say and what the cheating spouses say in their attempt to justify themselves, it’s as though they all share a common brain, a very small one with nothing unique or special involved.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  paintwidow

If you would like some real insight into the mind of someone like Reille Hunter (Lisa Jo Druck),watch her interviews on YouTube. A very,very unintelligent person with no morals or self awareness. She operates on the most basic level, barely aware of most things.
Just look at her expectations of acceptance of her book. This cretin expected she would be a sympathetic figure and could not even see how repulsive she would be to others.

Chumpasaurus Rex
Chumpasaurus Rex
8 years ago
Reply to  paintwidow

I confronted the OW, too. Her response was “I just want to stay out of it! This is between you two, not me.” Obviously, what these people fail to grasp is that they directly inserted themselves into your marriage the moment they slept with your spouse. Whether they want to take responsibility or not doesn’t matter. If the AP knew that their two wuv was married, they are just as much to blame.

I tend to think that most APs: a. get a sense of schadenfreude that also makes them feel superior (Narcissistic supply-“I was able to make him LEAVE this woman he promised to love FOREVER. I am a special snowflake and a unique and beautiful flower”) and b. are sort of stupid, or at the very least, have no emotional intelligence.

FF and howorker broke up after about 4 months. I guess that it wasn’t nearly as exciting once I went no contact and they didn’t have me to torture. Do I think that this woman hated women in general? Slipping a pair of her underwear into my work bag for me to find…. Yeah. Yeah, I think that she hated women. But, that doesn’t necessarily mean they all do…

Kay
Kay
8 years ago

I think chumpasaurus that ow and om are really they are full of hate in general. If you love someone would you really want to make them so duplicitous? If you really love someone would you really want them to lie and have to cheat? Why would you want to put up with that crap anyway? I think they hate themselves and everybody else.

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
8 years ago
Reply to  Kay

I think so, too. They walk around with their chests stuck out, like they are the SHIT, because a home was wrecked over them. This screams of low self-esteem, and hate for other successful people to me.
I wondered if the X’s piece across the street was a playground bully when she was young. I know she liked to bully me. I knocked on her door (only once, thank Goddess) to ask her what she was up to, trying to ruin my family. She said- This has nothing to do with me!! and slammed the door.
I knew she was nuts right then, and never went near her again. Her F-ed up life will be her reward.

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  FreeWoman

Free Woman, ex’s whore was giddy that she was so much “better” than me. But her “basis”for her opinion was that I was so old, fat, lazy, who knows what, that ex wanted her slimy ass. It’s just kind of ironic that she was so puffed out over comparing herself to me when I’m obviously such a loser. Pathetic, really, if she weren’t such a nasty bitch.

Alzada
Alzada
8 years ago
Reply to  paintwidow

“I confronted almost every affair partner of my ex and they all said the same thing, that they didn’t feel any accountability after the affair because they didn’t cheat on me, he did.”

This! I have not directly confronted the OW in my situation but I have friends that have talked to her. Her response was “why does she blame me for his choice to cheat on her?” Like water off a ducks back. The fact that she was complicit in the deceit does not bother her one bit. I had another friend that suggested that because her moral view (she is poly) is different than mine that she does not see what she did as wrong. That the moral guilt lies on him for breaking his vows to me. IDK I just know that she feels she is guiltless in the whole thing. Oh and she does consider herself a “feminist”. I just think she is a cheap whore.

hanecita
hanecita
8 years ago
Reply to  Alzada

The crazy train that I was shoved aboard was one where the OW told me that she was a superior creature because OW had gotten permission from her Husband to have sex with my husband and OW’s husband ‘ supported her choice’, so her conscience was clear…..(I spoke to OW’s Husband, and yes, she told him about her choice, but he wasn’t ‘ok’ with it.) Funny, OW didn’t insist that my Husband get permission from me: OW was perfectly content to be complicit with the destruction of a strangers marriage and family. But since OW had permission, it was all OK… The initials of the OW, her Husband and my Husband were, PB&J…a sandwich made entirely of heels.

wideawake
wideawake
8 years ago

In addition to CL’s and LostandFound’s comments, I’d add that OW & OM (married or single) definitely do wallet biopsies to upgrade their lifestyle. So they trade ego & genital strokes for money on a small or large scale, and that “I’m-a-huge-user-mentality” makes it difficult for them to be an authentic friend to anyone.

petite87
petite87
8 years ago
Reply to  wideawake

wideawake, I’ve noticed this too in many commments. This happened with my ex as well. It seems like when they leave for the AP they start living these expensive lifestyles of vacations, nice homes, cars, etc. What is up with that? My ex and AP moved to three different states in an 18 month period to several different apartments, got new cars and travel more. To my recollection, Ex didn’t have a pot to piss in, poor credit and the student loans were garnishing the hell out of those wages, so I don’t know with what money they’re living high on life with!

Stayin Strong
Stayin Strong
8 years ago
Reply to  petite87

Mine is doing the same exact thing. Multiple states, upscale apartments, cruises, eats out constantly, they spend money like water. Meanwhile in the real world the IRS is looking for him, credit cards are in collections, his name is on 2 mortgages and one escalates shortly. Mister 800 credit score is spiraling downward. Sometimes I think he stays with her because she seems to be the one with some money. Well, at least until they blow through all of it. Karma bus is coming round the corner.

movin_on
movin_on
8 years ago
Reply to  petite87

Mine is doing this, too. It’s image management. Behind the scenes, he is a miserable, over-extended wreck. That side of him comes out from time-to-time and it reinforces my belief that his new, wonderful life is really just same shit, different players. Window dressing.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  movin_on

Guessing they have to impress the whores. Pay day is around the corner when everything is put on credit while working part time.

SeeTheLight
SeeTheLight
8 years ago

“To reconcile means you’ve probably bought in at some level that the cheating is your fault and you can prevent it by being a Better Spouse. …more in tune with His Needs.”

It can also mean that an attempt at reconciliation is your last ditch effort to show your cheater and yourself that you could be a freaking beauty queen, Mensa, all-round-good sport, handy(wo)man, admired friend and co-worker, yada, yada, yada. Cheater values it not! Without cheater remorse, repentance, see the blazing billboard, “Trust that he sucks!”

The Cheater is damaged. He associates with other damaged people = OW. Don’t be part of cheater’s cadre of associates. Heal yourself.

ginger
ginger
8 years ago
Reply to  SeeTheLight

this!!!

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago
Reply to  SeeTheLight

I tried wreckonciliation (who was it first coined this phrase – does anyone remember – it’s so brilliant)! – it turned out to be 3 years of unmasked shark narcissist abuse. Disastrous. I hoped not to lose my life-style, I hoped not to lose the man I’d always believed ‘hung the moon’ until I discovered he was a lying cheater. What I didn’t do then, or since, was blame myself IN ANY WAY. I could not have been a better wife, lover, friend, cheerleader, human being – I DID NOTHING WRONG. The AP was gone by my D Day, so I didn’t have to do a ‘pick me dance’ with another woman, but I did have to do a ‘pick me dance’ against his wounded ego (cos now I knew he was a lying cheater and let him know I knew he was a lying cheater – he couldn’t bask in my starry-eyed devotion anymore).

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

Regarding Pick Me Dances, I thought that I was done with them after my STBX left in Fall 2014. Now that my boyfriend (unofficially ex-boyfriend, who I do not think is a cheater but is going through what some might call a mid-life crisis but is, to me, just a crisis of deciding which of several appealing, mutually exclusive things he wants) has told me that he sees no future for us, I am again feeling tempted to do the Pick Me Dance. I have neither visited nor talked to boyfriend for a week. I have never used illegal substances or been addicted to any substances, but I am starting to get a sense of what withdrawal might feel like–H-ll! In terms of the break up with boyfriend, I emotionally am having a harder time with it than the one with my STBX, perhaps because my boyfriend was my friend for 30 years and I loved and trusted him more than I loved and trusted STBX, and boyfriend, for the most part, is a decent guy. At my age, how sad that I haven’t evolved more! I am working very hard to break this habit (doing the Pick Me Dance, wondering whether I tried hard enough and was good enough, etc. to make a healthy romantic relationship last) and feel confident, comfortable, and content being and supporting a family on my own–for the rest of my life if nobody decent comes along.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  RockStarWife

RockStarWife

It sucks that you have to deal with this pain. I hope you are taking care of yourself.

I don’t wish to fan the flames of your pain. I’m not aware of the timeline on your divorce. It appears that you very quickly went from one relationship to another. I’ve read on more than three occasions that the first breakup post-chumping is even more agonizing than the chumping. It appears that you are experiencing that pain. I hope that you know that your tale is cautionary to the rest of us Chumps. Jumping into another relationship too soon might delay the inevitable despair of divorce. Again, I hope you are doing well. Your introspection and sharing are invaluable.

Lola Granola
Lola Granola
8 years ago
Reply to  RockStarWife

Rockstarwife, do you remember the recent post about ‘where are all the decent men hiding’?

It might be time to commit that one to memory: https://www.chumplady.com/2016/02/dear-chump-lady-where-are-all-the-single-available-men/

You have done so well getting out of one frying pan, so don’t jump into the fire. I think a lot of us have that secret idea that leaving a cheater, gaining a life means getting another partner who is far superior to the last one. It doesn’t always mean that.

This man is still a good man, but HE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE THE KIND OF RELATIONSHIP YOU WANT.

That should be the only red flag you ever need to see. It is also a useful lesson in ‘We think we know people, and then we find out that we really don’t know them all that well’.

People always have the capacity to surprise us as they unfold, but that’s often because we have read them wrong. He has been a good friend, but he doesn’t want to be any more than friends with benefits.

You have to be really honest with yourself here, and brave enough to walk away if that is not what you want.

Can I ask – did this good friend effectively support you through the divorce process? And if so, do you need to ask yourself if you are just trying to avoid being single? It’s really easy when we are feeling very bruised to accept dodgy relationships because they buffer us from the ‘shame’ of actual singleness. And the longer you have been partnered, the harder it is to move away from that state of mind.

Jedi hugs and don’t be afraid.

Roaring
Roaring
8 years ago
Reply to  SeeTheLight

“The Cheater is damaged. He associates with other damaged people”

Yup.

That’s it. We have been given a gift: freedom. I’ll take it.

Michael.
Michael.
8 years ago
Reply to  SeeTheLight

My cheater use to say that she’s “broken” as part of her excuses for doing what she does. I initially bought it and felt sorry for her. But now I think that’s the whole ploy was to get me to feel sorry for her and to manipulate me through sympathy. I no longer think she’s broken, or there’s anything missing. She’s a perfectly whole human being who just doesn’t care about no one but herself. She’s a complete asshole.

wat700
wat700
8 years ago
Reply to  Michael.

Michael – my cheater ex was very similar. Said she was broken, damaged etc. And I felt sorry for her a little initially too. I bought into the affair being part of her wider problems and low self esteem. I saw her of the victim of the OM. But she was playing me and it was an easy line as it kept me untangling her skein and focussing on fixing her rather than on what had happened to me. Does you more damage in the long run.
The only good thing about wreckonciliation was that it removed any feelings I had for her. I saw her for who she really was – a nasty, self centred, uncaring person who was prepared to keep sucking me dry emotionally. Glad to be clear of that train wreck!

Michael.
Michael.
8 years ago
Reply to  wat700

I initially thought she was the “victim” of the OM. She even made it seem that way in the form of, “Well he told me ths. And he told me that.” Like she was being manipulated by him. But soon after I realize that she wasn’t the victim but the perpetrator. I even said that to her in a long chumpy email which she fully ignored. As men we tend to be protective of the people we love, especially our woman. And that’s how my sociopath ex-wife played me. It worked at the beginning of our relationship, but when she tried it again at the end I had already saw through her. And once I saw what she was, that’s all I saw.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Michael.

Michael,

So sorry to hear of all the pain she caused you.

And once I saw what she was, that’s all I saw.

Same. Now I think back on my 10 years together with my STBXW, and it’s all shot-through with pain.

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago
Reply to  Michael.

“…complete asshole….”

In every sense of the word. Thanks for puttng it so eloquently, Michael.

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

Yes, these people are all assholes and if you have access to an accurate view of other areas of their lives ( not just the fidelity component), almost invariably, you find them to be deficient and dishonest as regards all types of things.
These folks do not,just suddenly, cross the line into sociopaths after marriage. Typically, they have been pulling whit like this for a long, long time, leaving a trail of destruction.
Theaft

These cheaters are not newly minted sociopaths. These traits do not just pop up in adulthood.

kb
kb
8 years ago
Reply to  SeeTheLight

You’ve just described the Pick Me Dance to a T. On some level, you, the loyal spouse, are trying to get your Cheater to see that YOU are the worthy object of his/her attention, so you try to figure out the nature of the appeal of the AP. You try to show that you’re prettier, more fun, in better shape, etc.

This means that you’re trying to make up some kind of deficit that caused your Cheater to cheat. You might not think of it this way, but that’s what the Pick Me Dance is all about.

For me, once I recognized that I can’t compete if no one told me the rules, my decision was easy. If my XH had bothered to communicate unhappiness, then we could have worked on this–either with a marriage counselor or talking with each other. He didn’t. He decided that he was entitled to cheat under some circumstances that he’d never bothered to tell me about.

I decided that I deserved better than to be married to someone who thinks that cheating is an appropriate course of action under certain circumstances.

Lostandfound
Lostandfound
8 years ago
Reply to  kb

I kept hearing that he was unhappy. That I was fat and nagged. What I really was was invisible because he was dreaming of schmoopie

Lola Granola
Lola Granola
8 years ago
Reply to  Lostandfound

Me too, lostand found. So really he’s much better off without me.

I made frozen banana, peanut butter and chocolate popsicles today with some bananas that were too ripe, and the clean, well kept house is full of the aroma of a slow cooked lamb rogan josh.

And I changed the bed linen and it smells great as well.

It’s a BEAUTIFUL day.

You see? This way, everyone’s happy.

But only one of us has a clear conscience. And that, my friend, makes ALL the difference.

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
8 years ago
Reply to  Lola Granola

LOVE it. We are free to live as we want now, and it’s just right!

CDNM Chump
CDNM Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  kb

kb, I looked at the “Pick me Dance” this way, what would happen if I was in a car accident and burnt to an physical ugly state? He’d dump me without a doubt, why? Because he simply doesn’t love me, this made it easy to walk away and move on.

Stayin Strong
Stayin Strong
8 years ago

Do they win? Sure, sometimes they win the “prize”. The prize is someone who doesn’t value commitment, who doesn’t care if he is involved in his children’s lives, who walks away from responsibility, who uses his dick as a divining rod, who thinks everyone will accept his behavior over time, who values his happiness over everything else, who doesn’t have a problem re-writing history, who now has forever given his side chick the title of other woman forever (even if they marry, she will always wear that crown).

Congratulations on the prize. Enjoy the rest of your life looking over your shoulder to see who is next in line.

movin_on
movin_on
8 years ago
Reply to  Stayin Strong

Well said. And the mental image of my ex using his dick as a divining rod makes me laugh. Brilliant.

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago
Reply to  movin_on

+2, LOL. As long as the divine sausage is happy!

CDNM Chump
CDNM Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

Haha MovinOn, mine used to look at his (rod) in admiration in front of me and say, nice hey? I should of known he’d want to show it off to more than just me back then. 🙂

TheMuse
TheMuse
8 years ago
Reply to  CDNM Chump

Ack, don’t get me started, CDNM, “worship” was one of my Ex’s favorite exhortations for his… then after DDay when I blurted out, “I can’t believe you would fuck another woman!” he retorted snidely, “Oh, so you are saying that All.You.Care.About.Is.My.Dick???!!! What if my dick fell OFF, Muse?!, are you saying you would leave me!???” It’s quite amusing now to picture that, in light of seeing his stupid narcissistic verbal manipulations for what they really were: deflection and blameshifting. Laughable now.

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago
Reply to  TheMuse

TheMuse – There is SO MUCH WRONG with what he said but all I can articulate is how I wish his dick had fallen off! (hey, there’s still time 🙂 ) xx

TheMuse
TheMuse
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

yeah Jayne you read my mind!!!

CDNM Chump
CDNM Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  TheMuse

That is gaslighting to the extreme Muse, I recognize it right away now when I see it coming from a Narc. Sick, my head used to hurt or as CL puts it, felt like my brain was in a blender. LOL I chose to gain a life after that crap!

Little Mighty Me
Little Mighty Me
8 years ago

I am going to speak very objectively about the OW in my case (which isn’t easy – lol). She is young, just turned 30, she is beautiful, and she is well-educated. She has a lot of female friends, and she invests in those friendships, including a handful whom she has been friends with for years. She also has male friends wherein the friendship is completely platonic. Knowing what I know of her, I don’t believe she would ever go near one of her friend’s boyfriends or husbands – she would consider them strictly off-limits.

She appears to be quite loyal to her “tribe.” I highly doubt she would screw any of them over. If you are in her circle, you are sacrosanct. But her empathy is severely limited in that way – if you are a stranger, she doesn’t care at all about you.

She does have boundary and maturity issues in other parts of her life. She is a functioning alcoholic, and she has money problems. Her parents still pay a respectable portion of her bills, and this doesn’t seem to bother her. She has two degrees, a bachelors in psychology and a master’s in criminal justice administration…but she’s never had a job in her field, because DUIs and alcohol problems have ruined her internships and had her failing background checks. Her education is, at this point, useless.

In a word, she’s immature and insecure as hell. Her emotional intelligence is more like a girl half her age, and she is incapable of big-picture thinking or compassion for anything wider than the people and events which make up HER immediate existence.

And finally, she believed him. He spun her more lies than he spun even to me. He presented himself as seperated, our marriage as over in all but name, our divorce as imminent (and mutual!) and she believed him. I think a combination of her selfishness and immaturity kept her from trying to verify the truth. Her lack of concern for me, the faceless stranger, kept her from trying to get to the bottom of the story. She was simply more comfortable taking him at his word, and her conviction that she IS a special and unique snowflake meant that he couldn’t POSSIBLY lie to HER, right?

I don’t think she hates women at all. I don’t think she hates me. She’s just not very smart or discerning.

Ali Rose
Ali Rose
8 years ago

Little Mighty Me, It sounds like you’ve done the hard work of looking at the truth. Your ex was an idiot to cheat on someone with your insight and integrity.

I think the slew of women (and men) involved with my ex were extremely challenged in life by low character and no healthy coping skills. Recognizing that doesn’t excuse their behavior, it’s just stating a fact.

Little Mighty Me
Little Mighty Me
8 years ago
Reply to  Ali Rose

@ Ali Rose – Thank you so much for your kind words 🙂 It has been three years, and I have certainly grown a lot. I would have answered a question like the OP asked a LOT differently three years ago. I would have said they are all, without exception, horrible predators wrapped in human skins. Pod People. Evil. Sadistic.

I’ve worked tirelessly on my own recovery, and my own responses NOW kind of surprise me. But I think it is important to speak the truth, no? I try to do that devoid of emotion if I can. I can see that the OW in my case was not a predator. I mentioned downthread that she dumped my husband within 15 minutes of finding out his home situation wasn’t as he presented it. That alone speaks volumes. She also apologized profusely to me, more than once, and even offered to meet me at any time to tell me everything. I didn’t take her up on that for many reasons, but I didn’t have to. I knew she was lied to by a masterful manipulator just as I was, and I had already done CIA levels of research into their relationship before I confronted. I already knew the whole story, literally from the beginning. I had been watching their affair in real time from 24 hours after he sent her the first flirtatious e-mail…they just didn’t know it.

However, I can’t say I am able to drum up any sympathy for her. I wish I were evolved enough for THAT, but I’m not. I dislike her intensely. I associate her (and forever will) with the anguish that was visited on me and my kids. The part of me that is my best self can see she was just a small-time player in a game that was way over her head. The baser part of me still automatically thinks “Evil Whore.” I do not wish her well.

ChefBella
ChefBella
8 years ago

You sound very gracious and fair to the OW. From what you describe, she probably has some FOO patterns that remain unexamined and are the festering source of her boundary issues and substance abuse. I hope she seeks therapy and gains some perspective and growth out of her choices. I can only imagine how emotionally horrifying it must be to realize you have been manipulated into an affair and have the guts to speak to the other spouse.

I hope your journey to Meh is going well. Your compassionate posts here regarding the OW would lead me to believe the journey is well underway.

StrawberryJellyfish
StrawberryJellyfish
8 years ago

I have gotten the impression that the OW really liked seeing how much she could get people around her to do for her. Would he give up his wife for me? Will he give up his family for me? Will he go send his cats to a kill shelter for me? Soon she’ll be expecting him to put her before his own daughter. In a way he already did since he chose her over the best interest of his daughter.

donna
donna
8 years ago

Strawberry, regardless of what he will do or give up for her, its still all on him. My children started blaming the psycho conduct disordered whore for HIS lack of interaction and contact for 19 months. Isn’t it about what the cheaters value? The cunt has no relationship with her only child and he is a total fuck up due to her inability to parent or be a role model. If she doesn’t value her own child there is no reason for her to value mine. She doesn’t know them. The Limited however has no excuse to go no contact with his children. There isn’t a vagina that powerful. Actions, the Limited is responsible for his actions. Not seeing his children is all on HIM.

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

Donna, my name is Donna, too. My POS pulled all the stupid shit a cheater can pull. DD I tossed his sorry lame ass out. 2 weeks, ,later he moved in with the Whore, with 2 kids, a 14 year old girl and 8 year old boy, and he is 60!!!! According to him, she pressured him…..YOU’RE fucking 60, not 13! I’ve heard what you’ve been through, and thank you for saving me from wreckconsiliation!!! ty, ty, ty

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  nomoreskankboy

Love your name! Skankboy! Happy you didn’t reconcile. They are so fucking dumb. Xoxo.

Em
Em
8 years ago

YES! THIS! I truly think that is and always will be the whorebags motive! She triangulated herself with her ex she broke up with for her married boss (aka my ex) and would go back and forth between the two whenever my ex wouldn’t give her her way (because he was married with a son so couldn’t drop everything to pick you up from the airport- that sent us into D-Day number 3 of 5 because of the epic hissy fit she threw). She now demanded to be a part of my sons life or else their relationship was over. They are so insecure in their own skin they need to skim as much off of other people’s lives as possible to make them feel important!

Lostandfound
Lostandfound
8 years ago

We are all terrible wives and crazy. That what they both tell each other as justification. I was hyper vigilant for five years after the first d day. It was exhausting and unnecessary. You shouldn’t have to ,watch’ your spouse to make sure he isn’t cheating (again).

paintwidow
paintwidow
8 years ago
Reply to  Lostandfound

Right?? Thank you, I totally agree. Now his mistress gets to work that shift, I feel so totally rested. Lol

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago
Reply to  paintwidow

Same here, I am certain both Mr Fab and the Downgrade’s necks must be able to spin 360 degrees. She was married, too, but she told me, “It was only ever financial between me and my Chump, for the last ten years, so, technically I am single.”

Errr….and that makes you what, exactly? And a cheap one at that.

They are 110% welcome to each other-my visualization is of them in a tightly corked glass bottle, which is slowly flooding with sewage. And they drown each other all the more quickly, each scrambling to stand on the other one’s head.

Or better yet, I see this. It is a sunny day, at a little house in a big woods. The creek burbles happily, sparkling in the sunlight. When the sun hits her face, Mehphista rises, greets and feeds all her animals, makes a coffee, sits on the porch watching the World wake up. The emails for her wellpaid freelance job can wait. If there is a significant other back in the bed, it is because he has earned that place, and we both are grateful for that privilege every day. If not, well, there is a pair of scraggly old Maine Coon cats. Kiddo is at college, living and learning, safe in the knowledge that Momma Mehphista has her back, and that we made it. There are extra cabins in the woods, for friends to visit, and these are free for any Chump to use, any time. When Chump Nation visits, we all eat together at the massive picnic table. Oh and the hot tub fits eight…..

Mehphista stretches, and steps into her day. She has gotten a life.

ChefBella
ChefBella
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

Rock out Mehphista, what a lovely vision. I hope it becomes reality!

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

So, where where do Grumpy, Sneezy, Bashful,Sleepy, Doc, Dopey, and the last one( Crusty?Stinky?Grizzly?) stay, Mephista?

Arnold
Arnold
8 years ago
Reply to  Arnold

Bashful( and, I did not have to Google it).

Finally realized
Finally realized
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

I love your vision, Mephista. May you achieve it all, and soon.

Oh, and is there a swimming hole in that creek? I’ll bring the watermelons to set in the water to cool for after supper.

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago

Darn right there is! Just set those melons down in the watercress patch alongside the beers!

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

Mehphista – just before the Milky Way does it’s awesome thing while we gaze up at it from the hot tub – could I request an overhead projector, a laser pointer and an awesome schooling by yourself in the wonders of Artemesia Gentilesche et al? Would love to hear you pointing out all the marvelous symbolism while we stare open-mouthed in awe at the masterpieces. Thanks 😀 xx

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

So, fireworks, potato salad and art history lectures….great on their own, even better combined, LOL.

All welcome!
x-Meh

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

😀 Lets GIDDY UP and GO!!!!

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

Mehphista,

I’ll bring fireworks if that’s okay. And we could have a fire pit to burn Cheater junk.

I can only imagine the amazing campfire stories you and the other Chumps would weave. Such wordsmiths here.

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

YOU GUYS!!! I wanna go to Mephista’s too!!!!

I make the world’s best potato salad!!! I wanna go!!!! And Beau too!!!

geekmom
geekmom
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

Me too, me too!! *runs for suitcase and MapQuest**

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago
Reply to  geekmom

Here is the address

Little House in Big Woods
Lifegotten Lane
Chumpington-on-the Water
Meh

Chumptastic Chump
Chumptastic Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

LOVE both of your visions!

CDNM Chump
CDNM Chump
8 years ago

Me too, can I pack today? 😉

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago
Reply to  CDNM Chump

Your beds are all made, dinner is a cookin’!

arlo
arlo
8 years ago

Idk what the hell must have been going thru the basically adolescent mind of the 20 year old my stbx took up with. She knew me and my son, we had friendly chats quite often. I can’t imagine what he was telling her, but looking back, I think he was grooming her for quite a while. But she checks some of the other boxes here: circle of friends mostly male, had hooked up with at least a few of them, and once things got weird with stbx, but before I realized what all was really going on, a dramatic shift in how she behaved towards me. Also she was quite the outspoken social justice warrior.
An inauspicious start to a young feminist’s life, for sure.

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
8 years ago

My issue with the opposite sex “friendships” was how my ex-wife used to use that as an excuse for inappropriate relationships. As heterosexual, I would encourage people to be careful of such friendships…but ultimately, the choice to cheat or make those relationships inappropriate rests with the cheater. It is not the friendship per se that is the problem. However, it can become one.

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago

If I can’t have a romantic relationship with someone who can have friendships with females, and I have friendships with males without either or both of us worrying that those friendships are going to get sexual, then I don’t want a romantic relationship ever again.

FWIW – For 37 years I managed to have several long term relationships and a first marriage where friendships with people from the opposite sex were NEVER, EVER a problem. I’m not a jealous woman and, while my picker might not be great, it at least never picked jealous men. ‘The Great I Am’ is the only man who ever cheated on me. I will not, and refuse to, become sexist and suspicious as a consequence of having married a true NPD. I loved and love that my heart trusts and does not judge on gender. I will not be broken.

jo-jobee
jo-jobee
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

Well, cheaters may all be the same deep down, but they have different modes of operation. MY ex was absolutely the LEAST jealous guy on the planet. Never once did he act jealous–not even if someone flirted or was inappropriate right in his face. I really think now that was for two reasons: 1. It allowed him to cultivate an “I’m not jealous, so you should never say anything ever about what I do, where I go, or how I act with women.” It was all a front to make cheating easier, and 2. He really did not care about me at all, to the point he wouldn’t come to my aid when men physically invaded my space and I was upset or scared. He enjoyed the abuse.

kb22
kb22
8 years ago
Reply to  Jayne

I think far too many people confuse jealousy with not putting up with any nonsense. Big difference. I’m not a jealous person but my tolerance for over the top flirtation and inappropriate behavior is zero. I refuse to let anyone shame me for sticking up for myself.

Anne
Anne
8 years ago

I disagree. I work in a predominantly male field. The difference between me and my stbex is that I was honest when I went out with my male friends. I told him who I was going with, where I was going, when I was going to be back, and even, “hey, do you want to join us?” I was never inappropriate with any of them and never gave him reason to question what I was doing and with whom. He never invited me to go out with his friends after work, because as I later learned, he wasn’t at guys only card game or meeting one of his male friends for coffee. If you have values and morals, the sexual organs of your friends shouldn’t matter.

Marezy doats
Marezy doats
8 years ago
Reply to  Anne

I’m with you Anne, I work in a field dominated by males, and I have tons of guy friends. I don’t cheat, would not cheat, and am quite honestly not even the least bit tempted. I find it strange when people think that it is somehow a good thing that they have to avoid men, because they might just lose their minds and cheat without meaning to! The only thing that is keeping them from cheating is the vigilant presence of their spouse at the community garden work party? Their boundries are never being alone with a man, because who knows where it might go? My respect for my husband is that I am always 100% truthful ( except about his cooking) and open about my friendships.

ChefBella
ChefBella
8 years ago
Reply to  Marezy doats

I agree, I am also in a male dominated field, and even as a totally single woman, I would not cross the line with my colleagues who are in a relationship. Even my single co-workers I consider off limits because of my professional ethos. Sometimes I feel sexual attraction, but I would never act on it.

I don’t leverage my sexuality in my professional persona, because I feel it is unprofessional and creates a playing field that isn’t about merit. However, there are plenty of women that do that in all lines of work. I certainly don’t condone it, and it is grounded in poor choices and low self-esteem that the quality of one’s work does not speak for itself. I also don’t spend a lot of time giving free head rent to the idiocy of other’s poor choices. I’ve never seen it play out well, but people love to think they are the exception.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  Marezy doats

Same here, when I’m in a relationship I have no desire for sex with anyone else and firm boundaries about it. Doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate seeing a hot guy, just means I don’t act on that, not interested.

Jayne
Jayne
8 years ago
Reply to  Marezy doats

Well said and ditto

jo-jobee
jo-jobee
8 years ago

I agree. People should be protective of their marriages. Knowing how easily self-justification and rationalization comes to humanity, why put your marriage in any kind of possible danger? I agree that it can be possible to be totally platonic, but why give romance any fertile ground to sprout in? There is no more fertile ground than common interests, deep caring, and the fun found in friendship. My now husband and I (both chumps) decided that even with opposite sex friends we’ve had for years, we do not see them alone, but only as a couple. I think it’s too easy for people to blur boundaries and push the line a little further all the time. Cheating is a character problem indeed; but, we have decided not to repeatedly endlessly “test” or “tempt” our characters with opposite sex friends out of respect for each other, ourselves, and marriage.

Datdamwuf
Datdamwuf
8 years ago
Reply to  jo-jobee

I don’t think it’s particularly healthy that you don’t trust yourselves to have friends of the opposite sex only if you see them as a couple. Just don’t understand why a friendship becomes a temptation even if once in a while you see them as sexual beings. That doesn’t mean you want to have sex with them. Lastly, I can’t help but wonder how you would solve this issue if you were bisexual.

CDNM Chump
CDNM Chump
8 years ago
Reply to  jo-jobee

That’s just healthy IMO Jo-jobee! And the way it should be,

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
8 years ago
Reply to  CDNM Chump

Agreed.

mightily
mightily
8 years ago

After my sociopath brother married is final AP, my ex SIL (I consider her a sister) said she actually feels sorry for the new wife, because now she will be the new victim. I had to remind her that the OW knowingly slept with a married man with children. Oh yeah, that.

Cakeless in Kalamazoo
Cakeless in Kalamazoo
8 years ago

One of the most baffling things I’ve read over and over again is how much of a downgrade the OW or OM is. How us stupid cows kept our poor exes trapped in this loveless marriage but how only they understand him, how their love is different and how they will never end up in our shoes because their sparkly magical vag will always be novel and exciting, and silly us, it’s not about the sex anyway.

I know for a fact thanks to
Christian Brothers, Dr. Pepper and a very sloppy open book drunk 40-year-old toddler the OW in our situation thought I was judgemental (I thought her serial cheater BFF was disgusting and mentioned it on several occasions which probably hit a bit of a nerve since she was fucking my ex behind my back at that point), snobby (I love reading, am a bit of an autodidact and got really excited whenever I could nerd out over something historically fascinating on PBS or History International), vain (I did stuck up things like go to the dentist regularly since I didn’t want rotten teeth like hers and am concerned with things like health and personal grooming) and that I thought I was a better parent (I am because I’ve never locked myself in a closet to get drunk because I’d had it with my kids who were still present or left them with a sitter she knew was abusing them because she wanted to go clubbing among many, many other examples.)

I’m sure the angry, insecure “I’m cooler and more fun than her!” dirty back porch sex happened before I’d finished brushing my teeth and climbed into bed alone… Again. She’ll show him! And me! She’s a real woman, not some stuffy snob always worried about stuff like being a good mom, finances and being a decent person.

So while I never liked the OW, who knew the ex even before I did, he was always trying to force this friendship, I was unfailingly polite because I was raised that way but there was always this seething resentment coming off her in waves toward me and my kids and I never understood why. If having morals and hygiene makes me a snobby bitch, then where’s my fully staffed condo on the Upper East Side?

She didn’t have very many female friends, and the ones she did have had similar character flaws. I never got down with her drunken neglect of her kids, her sleeping with many married men, her attempted smear campaign toward her ex (accusing him of molesting their kids and elaborately framing him with her then drug dealer boyfriend because her husband wouldn’t give her the divorce she wanted) and acting like I thought I was better than her because I was consistent with my values and parenting.

Sometimes I wonder if that’s why the ex left. Because he wanted a break from college level living and wanted to return to the mental and sociological demands of a kindergarten… With booze and sex, but probably just as full of viruses and way more untidy.

Roaring
Roaring
8 years ago

Cakeless, this is my situation, too.

STBX chose whores/webcam porn/Craigslist hookups over 20 years of middle-class respectability. He’d rather fuck a 20-year-old prostitute than share a life with me, an educated professional.

He’s a high school drop-out alcoholic fat middle-aged rube.

I thought he was trying to “move up” with me – but he’s disdainful, mocking me for being so “conventional” (every time we’ve spoken in four months since D-day, he says something to the effect of not wanting me to “get my hopes up” that he’ll reconcile with me) and celebrating the “intimacy” of his internet masturbation sessions.

His extremely expensive internet masturbation sessions.

Or boasting about how exciting it is to fuck a teenage prostitute in a no-tell-motel.

He honestly thinks he’s a desirable man. What world are these jokers living in?

Cakeless in Kalamazoo
Cakeless in Kalamazoo
8 years ago
Reply to  Roaring

It’s baffling, isn’t it? I guess I should have known. Ex’s stock comes from sweep it under the rug on mom’s side and ahem… very backwoods stock on his dad’s. His paternal alcoholic grandfather often threatened his dad with a shotgun and there was a lot of abuse that went on. And, his dad ended up doing something very similar to his mom, but that’s another post.

She, otoh, is such a winner that her dad is now back in prison for the three strikes you’re out policy after the first couple guest of the state convictions for knifing someone and grand larsony/drugs, this most recent conviction is for tieing up and shooting her most recent (and final) stepmother and going on the run from the cops. She should be proud. It was actually all over the Michigan news for a few days. But according to OW and her hayseed in-laws, the woman deserved it for being such a nagging bitch. I kid you not. OW and her genuinely brain damaged and psychotic sister were raised by a very racist grandmother who wouldn’t eat fast food because “blacks and Mexicans (insert typical slurs here) handled the food.”, her mom tried to drown her older sister and spent most of their childhood in an institution and her dad used the kids to help him shoplift from stores… When he wasn’t in prison. But I’m an asshole for not recognizing that he’s a good guy at heart and she still takes her kids to see him because “they need to know their grandfather no matter what he did.”

It must be possible in a galaxy far, far away that he could have left me for someone slightly more offensive, but so far I haven’t been able to think of anyone else. The ex has gotten more conservative over the years and she claims to be a good Christian with values, so perhaps his liberal, mixed race, artist wife was just too much to take after a while. *shrugs*

Both of them still think they’re in their early twenties with their sense of entitlement, lack of understanding concerning consequences and feeling that “love is all that matters.” Newsflash. That’s what I used to tell myself as I knowingly spray-painted all those red flags green.

It will be a shock if their relationship doesn’t explode and involve the county sherriff, charges being pressed and one or both of them having a luxurious overnight stay at our five star local facilities for the incarcerated.

donna
donna
8 years ago

Cakeless

All the years of looking and this was all he could find? I wouldn’t even call the Limited’s whore a downgrade. She’s in in the negative perhaps -10. It was never about finding someone better as he traded beauty, intelligence, love and loyalty for a classless bar whore one night stand to live with. Cheater logic gets them where they belong, away from us. Counting my blessings for getting the hell away from the disordered. Relief.

FinallyAwake
FinallyAwake
8 years ago

The OW in my case seems to have female friends although I know she isn’t a very good friend herself.
She destroyed her own marriage by cheating, cheated on boyfriends in the past and presents herself as a sad sausage with low self esteem.
Based on the communications I’ve seen she’s bought into the romantic idea of the long lost love returning, perhaps to “fix” the mistakes of the past, just like a real life Nicholas Sparks novel. I know my husband is good at triangulation and willing to talk me down so I’m sure she’s heard LOTS of stories and is very much enjoying the pick me dance. Sure she doesn’t know that I have excused myself from the party, she’s welcome to him, just not to my whole life.

sephage
sephage
8 years ago

In my case, my cheating STBXW’s affair partner has engaged in actions that suggest that he is a raging narcissist to whom the “normal” rules don’t apply (I’ve had to call the police on the guy twice).

Is he jealous of me? Does he hate me?

I honestly do not give a flying f*ck. I have ZERO interest in untangling that skein. As someone else wrote above, I’d rather chew glass.

All I know is, if he tries to contact me ever again in any form (even if he ends up marrying my cheating STBXW), the police have said they’ll charge him for harassment. We are not supposed to engage with another, and I intend to keep that up until the old guy croaks. I am my daughter’s father, he isn’t, so my view is that how he deals with that situation and stays in compliance with the police warnings while remaining part of my cheating STBXW’s life is *his* responsibility, not mine. I only know that he’s f*cked-up enough that I am taking myself out of that picture, and I’ve got the township police on speed dial.

When it comes to OW/OM, I’d urge chumps to take a stance of “who cares what they think, or why they do what they do; I only know that they’re crazy/immoral/bizarre and that’s enough for me, I am OUT.”

ChestnutMare
ChestnutMare
8 years ago
Reply to  sephage

“I honestly do not give a flying f*ck. I have ZERO interest in untangling that skein. As someone else wrote above, I’d rather chew glass.”
Well said, sephage.
I accept nothing less than NC and made it clear that should either disregard this, I will 1) call the sheriff 2) see them in court.

sephage
sephage
8 years ago
Reply to  ChestnutMare

Thanks, CM. I guess put another way, my thought is “those people are trainwrecks, so… let someone else figure out *why* they wrecked, and walk away (quickly).”

FinallyAwake
FinallyAwake
8 years ago

OT – For TheMuse – HONY had another cheater showcased (this time with no face). Sad sausage tale of woe of “putting up” for years with a horrible evil wife before getting himself a girlfriend.
The comments are beyond depressing from many women especially – all sorry for him, all happy he went for “happyness”, all more than happy to excoriate a woman who wasn’t there to defend herself. I figured many of them have been OW’s in the past.

What a sorry lot.

TheMuse
TheMuse
8 years ago
Reply to  FinallyAwake

thanks Finally, I may have to turn off HONY for awhile. I just don’t get it, all the support for cheaters. If someone had embezzled money from their boss because they thought they weren’t being compensated highly, would there be all this rah rah let’s hear it for happiness? Just don’t get it.

Linden
Linden
8 years ago
Reply to  FinallyAwake

I saw that, too. There was no way that guy could have had a conversation with his wife, or gone to counseling, or just plain divorced her? No, getting a side girlfriend was the only possible choice, I’m sure.

ChumpFromF
ChumpFromF
8 years ago

I have been studying and working all my life in a predominantly male field. I have a brain naturally wired for understanding technical stuff easily. My mother gave me a profound disgust for anything related to pregnancy. I suppose these are the reasons I could never keep a circle of close girlfriends after high school. Marriage and babies was all they seemed to talk about, why would I have gone out of my ways to meet some ? I had a group of fellow students around me and enjoyed the company of whatever idiot I was involved with, which entailed being immersed into his life, but also him being immersed into mine, as I had opportunities for traveling or practising hobbies on my side too. I was often that one girl within a circle of male friends, because other girls would have rather study marketing than electronics, and would rather talk about babies (yuk, boring !) than about making a robot (yay, exciting !). Besides, I was pretty.
BUT…
to me, all these males were just people, not prospects. I viewed myself as ONE OF THEM, not as some special female. I was rarely attracted, only with “the idiot I was involved with”, that everyone else in the group knew. Actually I was quite thankful that these guys accepted me as a member of the pack. Being rejected from the group with whom you share interests because you’re of the opposite sex is horrible.

Dating a married man NEVER came to my mind. The idea was and is still totally repulsive. I wanted to find a partner who would appreciate my not-so-female personality and tastes, who would be wanting to stay with me for good, and who I could get along with in the long term. Alas, despite the great number of guys I met along my life, I never managed to find that special someone (I provided one to both my sister and my cousin though).
I had thought that Ex was that special someone, at last… the deception is huge.

ChumpFromF
ChumpFromF
8 years ago
Reply to  ChumpFromF

And the OW were not like me. The OW were either very maternal figures (frumpy, warm, hot sex) or prostitute-like (high heels, bright clothes, bright makeup, hot sex).

KT
KT
8 years ago
Reply to  ChumpFromF

I think the point of an OW is that it’s “not you.” In other words, the cheater will be attracted to whatever you can’t provide. I’m nerdy but have a strong maternal side. I like reading philosophy and was pre-med in college. I also wanted to have babies and get married, which my husband happily agreed to. Then, he met someone in our nerd circle who was in an open marriage. Unfortunately, she didn’t really respect other people’s arrangements, just her own. She was heavy to my thin, Pagan to my Buddhist, and anime to my Sherlock Holmes/Battle Star Galactica. (Hope any of that makes sense, lol.) In short, she was not me and that was the appeal.

So, to your point, I don’t think there is a “type.” Some of the most amazing female friends I’ve had, on the surface, match OW’s profile. What matters is the narcissism and entitlement, not being child free or enjoying things that are traditionally male.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago